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Z-BosoN
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Z-BosoN
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So, catching up. I really don't feel like making too much of thrawn's "brilliant" plan. The main thing that bugs me though is how he disappeared after he stated his so-called "plan": On December 10 2012 14:53 thrawn2112 wrote: alright well I'm tired of the miller claim discussion so here's how it went down from my perspective. At first it was mainly a joke, but it was also intended to jump start discussion. + Show Spoiler + wow big surprise there right? Thrawn, here you mention that this was all intended to find scum pursuing you. So... now that the cards have been flipped, what the hell are your conclusions?? @wherebugsgo On December 10 2012 17:14 wherebugsgo wrote: I counted 5, so it should be a 66% chance, but w/e. Regardless, there's a much higher chance IMO of finding scum for day 1 in those who haven't joined yet than looking at the currently active players. I chose Palmar because he was one of those 5, because I want to see what he says, and because on balance concerns, if the host decided to balance teams, he's most likely to be the vet on the scumteam. All of these things, again, are preliminary so they mean nothing until Palmar actually shows up. (or, for that matter, all of the other guys). I have a heuristic for determining who out of that group is most likely to be scum, but I'll wait for them to appear before doing anything. No point till then anyway. I don't get why you are assuming there are four scum, is this obvious due to the setup? Also, I don't understand why you chose to use the "80%" argument in wanting to go for palmar BEFORE that explanation in the quoted post, when that argument is easily applied to any of the people who hadn't posted. | ||
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The lack of follow-up also worries me. | ||
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I see you've got some Adam going on for ya. I think you are getting too riled up over expecting someone to go balls out on a day one suspicion. You, for example, are not nearly as spammy as your day one self. I don't think this aligns with your townie play, but I don't think it necessarily makes you scummy. I am curious to hear from adam his stance on thrawn, as he seemed to have dropped it.. | ||
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On December 11 2012 04:12 wherebugsgo wrote: If not 4 scum, then what? 3 is too few, and 5 is too many. With 1 kp per night any other numbers are not very balanced unless there is some sort of blue distribution that makes other numbers likely. You don't understand the rest of it because you didn't read properly. That won't do. On December 10 2012 12:47 wherebugsgo wrote: alrighty. I've concluded from the current events that there's an 80% preliminary chance that Palmar is scum. Therefore I'm voting him, at least until he comes back and proves me otherwise. ##unvote ##vote Palmar Why did you say 80% chance yatta yatta here? Why not give the explanation you gave later on when ppl started asking questions? | ||
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On December 11 2012 04:29 wherebugsgo wrote: To Z-Boson, who is scum, and why? Who do you intend on voting? I'm not going to bother answering any questions that are irrelevant to the question of who is scum, since I've already adequately explained myself and anyone pursuing further lines of questioning regarding why I singled out palmar is not actively reading the thread or is seeking an easy alternative to doing real scumhunting. I was trying to figure out where you were coming from with all of that, because I honestly can't follow that thought process. Anyways, I don't have any solid scum reads. As I've stated earlier, I find vivax a bit suspicious, but beyond that nothing really. What about you? | ||
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Z-BosoN
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On December 11 2012 04:43 jaybrundage wrote: I didnt mean you specifically but some people in TL mafia do. I actually am starting to lean more neutral on Thrawn. In my early mind set I just couldnt see someone misclaiming as a joke, or risk getting them selves lynched. Im a little worried about our lurkers. And i would prefer to see more posts out of ZBoston. Specifically ZBoston what do you think about Claritys case on me and some people soft defending me. Also MunkE has had like 3 posts since his /in and every single one of them is mostly about WBG statistic. Do we really have to nitpick over something like that. WBG was mostly trying to bait Palmar out. Lets hear your thoughts on some cases On Vivax its odd. He seems really interested in going after Thrawns claim and saying that Ve defended it as a joke. When its not a joke. Even when thrawn said his self it was just a joke. That he stubbornly. Refused to explain to generate discussion. I think he is concentrating on thrawns little joke to much to the exclusion of everything else. I can see him being scum. ##Vote Vivax (Because some people get SOOOOO antsy if you dont follow your argument with your vote.) It's Z-Boson. It's funny you should mention Munk-E, because he has a town read on WBG, even though he disagrees with WBG's logic. Does anyone find this post right here: On December 11 2012 01:44 Munk-E wrote: This is actually my 4th or fifth game. I can't find the others in my post history, because i guess TL doesn't keep a post history that's that old. Yes, day 1 lynch last time, I'm gonna try to be more active so people don't waste their lynch again for no reason other than i didn't say enough. as for WBG, the more i think about it, the more I think he's more likely to be town. If he was scum, this play would either be to bus palmer if he's scum, which would be stupid and unnecessary, or to try to start a bandwagon on him if he's town, which would most likely be futile. He could be trying to appear to be an aggressive scumhunter, attacking harmless enemies though, so he seems town, but then again, aggressive scumhunting seems town. I see his logic now, but it is flawed. I highly doubt that all the scum were lurkers. Any close to being normal? | ||
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thoughts on munk-E? | ||
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On December 11 2012 05:54 debears wrote: HI marv!!!!!!! *waves* @Z-Bo Did you actually read what I said about Adam? Or did you just skim? My argument was not about "him not going balls deep" It was about him implying thrawn was scum and then saying thrawn wasn't scum Take another gander son Dude, wait to take the arrogant stance once you yourself have properly read what people have said. You said Adam implied thrawn was scum. Presumably when he said thrawn was "different" from his town meta. I said this isn't the case, because saying someone is playing different from their town meta doesn't necessarily mean they think they are scum. I used your meta as an example to this. Then you said he said thrawn wasn't scum. This is not true, he never said thrawn wasn't scum. Are you deliberately twisting words here? | ||
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The main issue I have with him is his stance regarding his suspicions. They don't make the slightest of sense to someone who is actually scumhunting. Lets us look at his first post. I'm gonna be analyzing two things. 1. Suspicion on debears and 2. suspicion on thrawn On December 10 2012 09:37 Djodref wrote: Hello everybody ! @thrawn Did you seriously not read that millers are not self aware ? @debears Are you seriously willing to enforce a "Lynch all Liars" policy ? My first reaction to thrawn post was "yeah, obvious scum" then I thought that he might not have been serious at all. A one liner for a miller claim doesn't look real, regardless of his alignment. The way he answered "nvm, then" shows that he is carefree about it. Debears, you are jumpy as both alignments, but I wouldn't expect your town self to post a video instead of engaging the discussion to get this game rolling. FoS debears He immediately feels surprised about thrawn's claim, and questions him about it. Now, look at all this interesting in his part towards debears. He does the following:
So, that leaves us at: 1. thrawn - surprising claim, but he's not necessarily scum. 2. debears - bad LAL policy. Video instead of discussion. FOS. Next post: On December 10 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote: Not true, if it was a probe post and you did it as town, then you can give a real answer like "I totally read that miller are not self-aware, but I wanted to use this fakeclaim as a probe to see how people would react to it" My problem is that I'm faced with the following choice right now
So, I'll go with the first choice for the moment and ask you how you were expecting people to react to this fakeclaim. All in all, what was your motivation for this post ? Here he proceeds in assuring that he'd rather go with a bluffing town thrawn rather than a scum one. Even so, he questions thrawn's motivation. Here's where it starts to get icky. Debears answers Djo, and here's his reply: On December 10 2012 09:56 Djodref wrote: I don't know how serious this vote was and this is what I want you to answer me, not throwing questions against questions. Given your behavior (video + this post), I would say not serious. The problem is not posting a video, my problem is that you are not engaging the discussion with thrawn after you vote him. Now, suddenly, the problem is not posting a video. The problem is not engaging the discussion with thrawn after debears voted him. This is all kinds of absurd. First of all, he mentions that the problem has nothing to do with the video - which is crystal clear it does. Also, as you recall in the first post, Djo acknowledged it being a policy vote. Policy vote is exactly that: a policy vote, no questions asked. What kind of discussion is Djo expecting? This is exactly the kind of useless argument scum like focusing on. I can't for the life of me see what Djo was expecting with this question... It gets better. On December 10 2012 10:07 Djodref wrote: Yes, I guess you were saying that your vote was not real with the video. What was your motivation with your first vote on thrawn ? What is your real take on thrawn fakeclaim ? He's still on about how debears voted thrawn, when he had already recognized it as a policy lynch. This to me seems like fluff. Scum wanting to look like they are contributing. So, right now, we have: 1. thrawn - surprising claim, but he's not necessarily scum. Actually it's more likely that he's town. 2. debears - bad LAL policy. Video instead of discussion. FOS. Doesn't engage in the discussion with thrawn after he votes. Now his reasons for voting thrawn are questionable. Of course, the natural townie thing to do right now is... On December 10 2012 10:35 Djodref wrote: I don't like it. I don't understand why you are being so stubborn... Let's see if it's really all you have to say about it. ##Vote thrawn OF COURSE! Pressure vote someone you have a town read on, instead of someone you've been pressuring for the last two-three pages. Then, after realizing that he was being completely balls-out useless with his pressure on thrawn, he decides it's time to drop it and sheep a Clarity case, which has NOTHING to do with absolutely ANYTHING he's been up to until that point in time: On December 10 2012 14:46 Djodref wrote: @ debears So, between Adam and Jay, which one of them should deserve your vote right now ? Because it looks like to me that the main reason for you to vote Adam is that he asked for your vote and voted against you. I think Clarity made good points against Jay and I'm also leaning town on thrawn right now. I think I know the reason why he doesn't want to explain himself right now and I don't think that my pressure vote is going to work out. @ jay It looks like you are leaning scum on thrawn. Would you care to convince us that he is indeed scum and that we should vote him ? As you can see, the risk to start an early bandwagon on him is not so big. ##Vote jay This is 100% not town mentality. If this isn't scum getting lost in the sidetracks, I don't know what is. What happened to the discussion? Whatever happened to debears? The only time he mentions debears again is in questioning him about Adam ( here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#237), and this is on a whole other dimension than on what he was pressuring debears about. Scum. tl;dr Sheep: ##Vote Djodref | ||
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Z-BosoN
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On December 11 2012 06:29 debears wrote: He did say it. Sure, I paraphrased it. Has the same meaning to me Well, that's saying that he's not willing to call him scum, as in he's not 100% scum. I feel that's kind of different of saying that he ISN'T scum ==> he's town. I don't feel like these are the same things but whatever. What you think about djodref? | ||
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Can you give us your "updated opinion"? ... | ||
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On December 11 2012 06:53 Clarity_nl wrote: I'm sorry to point out the obvious, but.... What? What made you change your mind on Tunkeg? Why are you saying he's town in one post, then in another post casually saying you'd lynch him? | ||
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On December 11 2012 07:32 Vivax wrote: He answered two hours after his last comment, just to defend himself with one line. His first post was made to fit in in some way, then he apparently spent hours lurking only to come out again when called out from me. Don't act as if I changed my mind out of nothing. I changed it cause of his post. Just cause clarity highlights one small part of it (the one where I express my willingness to vote) doesn't mean you shouldn't read the rest of it ,where I say that I didn't like Tunkegs response. I don't want to lynch him. I don't like this post he just made. Let's lynch him. This isn't how you play mafia dude. Why did his post made you change your mind? You keep taking stances without proper justification. If you are town and want to win tell us what the hell is going on through your head. | ||
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On December 11 2012 07:46 Tunkeg wrote: I refer you to my "useless" first post: They haven't posted much since. But as I said, I think jaybrundage style reminds me of the way he played student (one year ago), and I think in general his way of posting is appearing scummy. For Djordref I think he have posted alot of useless questions, and maybe some usefull ones, maybe to look like he is active. But then again, maybe that is his style. I am not sure what to make of him. I find it strange however that you hadn't picked up on my view on these players, when you were so eager to lynch me. Jumping on the first available bandwagon there is are we? Maybe you are scum. Then again, maybe you are not. I'm not sure what to make of you. However, I could be wrong. But hey, I could be right. It all depends. | ||
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totally watching that | ||
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On December 11 2012 07:56 Vivax wrote: That sounds nice, Palmar. Sadly, my wireless router is like a 56 k modem, so I can't follow your stream. If you wanna know I have a 4 KB/s download rate. Tunkeg, tell us what's so scummy about the two players pls. Boson, can you give us another useful post?Just like that yo. How bout you try doing just that? You know, instead of just placing your votes, giving actual reasoning? | ||
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On December 11 2012 10:44 Djodref wrote: @ Z-Boson 1) First of all, you're wrong and you have failed to show what goal my actions would serve if I was scum. I'm going to help you to read my posts because you obviously didn't understand where I was going during the early game. 2)My problem with debears early vote was not that it was a vote following a LAL policy but rather the seriousness of this vote. I've assumed that it was a vote for sparking discussion because this was the early game and the atmosphere was quite carefree at this time. Nevertheless, thrawn calling out debears on his vote against him would have been a good starting point for a real discussion but debears chose to post a video instead of this. The problem was not the video itself, but more what he did not do instead. Anyway, this was an early FoS, and also an attempt for me to spark some discussion.And when debears implied that his vote was not serious (which I knew because he didn't use the voting thread to vote thrawn), I wondered why debears would throw early mindless votes like this, and I wanted him to explain this as well. All in all, I think that he didn't really care about what he was doing, and I don't read anything of it. I don't like how debears is focused on Adam so I didn't remove my Fos on him so far. 3)Regarding thrawn, I wanted him to explain his move. I didn't see this coming from a mafia player, but still, I wanted him to explain his motivations for it. And then thrawn goes like and then which was pretty stubborn and stupid. I used a pressure vote (which didn't work) to get him talk, regardless of his alignment. And he deserved this pressure vote. When I unvoted him, I was expecting him to explain himself as putting himself in a position where he is going to get some pressure, especially mafia pressure. So, yeah, it matches its town mindset. And then, Clarity came in this thread with a case worth sheeping, so I sheeped. At the light of Clarity case, jay was more likely to be scum than debears. But now, as many people started to participate overnight, I'm going to update my reads. 1) Yes I have. I mentioned "scum getting lost in the sidetracks", because that's what's going on. You are trying to make it seem like you are contributing, when in fact, you are not. More on that later. 2) I don't buy this. You assumed that it was a vote intended to spark discussion, because it was in early game and had a "carefree" atmosphere, made by debears. You then pressure FOS debears to make sure he sparks discussion as his townie self. Then, he goes after adam, and you keep the FOS because you disagree with his case?? You can disagree with his case, just like you did somewhere, but that is only warranted of your suspicions is if you think it's fake comes from scum. Yet what do you do? You go on to drop debears entirely and go around asking questions about other aspects of the game without taking a proper stance yourself. 3) This still doesn't make sense. Why in gods name are you so interested in thrawn explaining himself, if you think he's town??. Why did you pressure vote him, whom you had a town read on, instead of going after debears, someone you've made quite clear you don't like the play this game? Also, to those who aren't feeling Djo, notice his complete lack of scumhunting in this game. Here's a summary of his entire play this game:
And that's IT. Zero stances, zero cases. It's scum feigning contribution. | ||
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Still something Djo is capable of as scum though. | ||
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A+B = C Where A is Tunkeg seems concerned about Djodref (time is 4:23): On December 11 2012 04:23 Tunkeg wrote: So I have skimmed through the thread. And these are my thoughts: Thrawn's "claim" is a joke claim. He did it in the very beginning, and quickly and without concern went back on it. I didn't like his response when called out on it. But when he in the end explained why he did as he did, it was an ok (no more, no less) explanation. I truly think people read to much into stuff like this, and overfocuses on it. I have many times made posts early that people have labeled stupid, with them voting for me and almost misslynching me (mainly because they didn't get my logic behind doing them, even after I explained it). I don't think the millar "claim" is anything worth spending much time analysing, but I would say that I find it more likely that a townie would do this. I like Clarity's post on jaybrundage. I think jaybrundage's posts are very non-commiting, and very fluffy. I have played games with jaybrundage before, and I may be wrong, but I think his style resembles what he did in Student, where he was scum. A very wishy-washy style, where he eventually did some major slips. I am also abit concerned about Djodref, I think he is posting alot, but his posts are very fluffy. I haven't played with him before, is this his style or? B is Z-BosoN made a huge case on Djodref (time is 6:48): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=18#344 And C is Tunkeg doesn't really address it and goes all mr.uncertain on it (time is 7:46): On December 11 2012 07:46 Tunkeg wrote: I refer you to my "useless" first post: They haven't posted much since. But as I said, I think jaybrundage style reminds me of the way he played student (one year ago), and I think in general his way of posting is appearing scummy. For Djordref I think he have posted alot of useless questions, and maybe some usefull ones, maybe to look like he is active. But then again, maybe that is his style. I am not sure what to make of him. I find it strange however that you hadn't picked up on my view on these players, when you were so eager to lynch me. Jumping on the first available bandwagon there is are we? So I thought it was weird - why isn't he commenting on a case against someone he was already suspicious of? And I found mr. bugs' meta part of his case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#481 Is very convincing. But now, Djodref, my main scum read, made a pretty big case on Tunkeg... they can't both be scum right? It'd have to be a pretty ballsy bus coming from Djo. | ||
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On December 12 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: @ Z-Boson + Show Spoiler [for reference] + On December 12 2012 00:28 Z-BosoN wrote: 1) Yes I have. I mentioned "scum getting lost in the sidetracks", because that's what's going on. You are trying to make it seem like you are contributing, when in fact, you are not. More on that later. 2) I don't buy this. You assumed that it was a vote intended to spark discussion, because it was in early game and had a "carefree" atmosphere, made by debears. You then pressure FOS debears to make sure he sparks discussion as his townie self. Then, he goes after adam, and you keep the FOS because you disagree with his case?? You can disagree with his case, just like you did somewhere, but that is only warranted of your suspicions is if you think it's fake comes from scum. Yet what do you do? You go on to drop debears entirely and go around asking questions about other aspects of the game without taking a proper stance yourself. 3) This still doesn't make sense. Why in gods name are you so interested in thrawn explaining himself, if you think he's town??. Why did you pressure vote him, whom you had a town read on, instead of going after debears, someone you've made quite clear you don't like the play this game? Also, to those who aren't feeling Djo, notice his complete lack of scumhunting in this game. Here's a summary of his entire play this game:
And that's IT. Zero stances, zero cases. It's scum feigning contribution. 1)So, basically, you are saying that I couldn't keep my story straight. And that shows that I'm scum. I would say that I've been inconsistent as townies can be inconsistent. Basically, my FoS on debears was not a very serious one (like all early FoS are) and I didn't feel like I had to follow it up when thrawn put himself at the center of the attention. 2)I was disagreeing with debears view on Adam and I still disagree with it because I think he is exaggerating some points. But debears has done nothing to deserve a vote. So I don't see why I should have not the right to use my vote on thrawn to pressure him. And yeah, I was leaning town on thrawn when I voted him but I needed his explanations for his miller claim to assess my read on him. 3)Putting pressure on thrawn was fulfilling two goals. The first one was to help me to assess my town read on him when he was going to reveal us his "plan". It was kind of obvious he was going to say something like this but I was interested to know how he was going to present things, and he did say almost exactly what I expected. The second goal was to show him that he was putting himself in a bad situation and that he should better explain himself asap so that the thread could move on to another subject because all this situation was a bit stupid and not helping us to have constructive discussions. 1) Scummies are more likely to be inconsistent than townies, so it's a small tell, but still a tell. What bugs me is the logic you had regarding debars/thrawn I've already went over. 2) Wait a minute. Bolded part. Whatever happened to: On December 11 2012 13:01 Djodref wrote: I've watched Palmar's video and I've changed my mind a little bit about your interactions with Adam. As a result, I would lean town on you and slightly scum on Adam but I'm not yet sold on him being scum. The latest "scumslip" is not a scumslip in my opinion because it would have been one if he was totally sure that you were scum, which doesn't look to be the case. The fact that he dropped you is reasonable but it's not very indicative of his alignment because it was the best thing to do as scum and as town. I'm waiting to see where he is going to go with Vivax but I think that jay is more likely to be scum than him at this point. Still not keeping your story straight. You say you lean him being town, now you lean him being scum. Worst of all, where is the reasoning, where is the justification for this?? 3) It's counter-productive. You are wasting time reassessing a "town-read" you had, and you STILL are flimsy and not moving on: On December 11 2012 13:12 Djodref wrote: @ thrawn The two posts you are talking about were independent if you are talking about these. Regarding the post you linked, it was the conclusion I came to when I was asking myself why you were being stubborn and not wanting to explain your motivations for your fakeclaim. After my pressure vote on you, I was wondering why a town thrawn would put himself in such a situation and I remembered this post you made about how you liked to be pushed as a mislynched. So, I was ready to post it before your explanation because it was what I was expecting from you. But it was not prepared, just I knew where to find this stuff. It is a strange question. Could I ask you what you are going to do with this info ? What do you expect to hear? Are you still trying to confirm thrawn as town? Thrawn has been questioned twice already regarding this and the most he said was "bugs came out looking worse". This is another example of you fooling around trying to look like you are contributing, imo. | ||
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On December 12 2012 01:04 Djodref wrote: I'll stop sniping you when you stop saying I'm your top scumread  Seriously, your case is not bad but it's mainly a collection of inconsistencies from my early game play. It shouldn't be a damning proof for me to be scum. Plus you should know that I ask a lot of questions usually, not all of them relevant. I'll start to do some scumhunting and I hope you can realize that I'm town. Who sniped you now huh. Get some I know you like asking a lot of questions, but usually you go somewhere with them. This game it looks to me like you are asking questions just for the sake of looking like you are contributing. Example: The thrawn question I just quoted. I cannot for the life of me see the reasoning behind that. Also, bullet point no. 2 is a swell example of you still not keeping your story straight, and this is something that scum have a really hard time doing. | ||
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They are because they can't be legit in their scumhunting. This is fairly obvious. On December 12 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: 1)Okay, I'm just saying that it was the early game and that I didn't follow up my FoS on debears so much because it was not a very serious one. 2)I have Adam as slightly scum. Debears is convinced that Adam is scum. I would lynch Tunkeg and jay before Adam today, I would say that grush might even be a better lynch choice than Adam. This is where I disagree with debears. Basically, I'm not sure that Adam is scum because some points brought against him seem to be exaggerated in my opinion. I would prefer to let him live today so I can have a better read on him when the game goes on. 3)The conversation that you quoted has been initiated by thrawn and I was answering him. His first question was weird and I wanted to know why he asked me it in the first place, it turned out that he was still unsure of my thought process. I hope that things are clear between him and me now. This conversation was productive in my opinion. I'm not 100% sure that thrawn is town at the moment and it helped me to confirm my view on him. What would be the benefit of a scum Djodref to ask this ? Hm, I didn't see you were answering thrawn. Well, I'm pummeling you for being inconsistent and not keeping your story straight. I view this as a small tell, which was augmented by the rest of your posting (not scumhunting). Until your case on Tunkeg you had zero scum hunting and some fluff, which is why I really thought you to be scum. I certainly see you as scum being capable of writing such a case, but I'll have to reassess and see what other people make of your posts and our exchange. You're not getting lynched today and we need to consolidate... so ##Unvote | ||
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On December 12 2012 01:33 marvellosity wrote: The thing I like least about jay at the moment is where his vote is parked. Z-Bo, what's your opinion then between Tunkeg and Djodref? Which is more likely to be scum now if you think it's unlikely it's a bus? I don't see you write anything at all on Adam, what's your read on him? Well, after thinking about it, it's much more likely that they can't both be scum. I have a much easier time thinking Tunkeg being scum and Djo being town. The bit I posted earlier about Tunkeg not responding AT ALL to my case on Djo makes me think that he already KNEW that Djo was town, and thus didn't really make too much of it. I feel that if both of them were scum then Tunkeg would most likely be all over Djo as well... So I'll stick to Tunkeg. Regarding Adam, I am of the view that debears is making waaay too much of his posts. Since both you and palmar like his lynch, I'm going to read his filter right now and see if he's a better lynch than Tunkeg. ##Vote Tunkeg | ||
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What I found suspicious on Adam's filter is this contradiction in his idea of a case -> vote relationship, which I'd like him to explain. He first criticizes debears for not voting him after making a case and votes him: On December 10 2012 13:07 Adam4167 wrote: In fact, why are you not voting me dabears? You say you don't like me (I assume this means you think i'm scum?), you find my lack of vote strange and that my reactions feel forced. Why make a case like this if you aren't going to follow it with a vote? ##Vote: dabears This is funny to say the least, because later on, though, when he's made a case on vivax, here's his stance when questioned on why he wasn't voting vivax: On December 11 2012 23:35 Adam4167 wrote: I wanted to see what you had to say about my case before I made a definitive call on you. Your response was interesting to me, because while you openly admit to not reading the thread and making shit accusations, I honestly wouldn't ever expect that level of honesty from a scum. I mean, it's ok that he makes a huge case and doesn't vote, but when debears did that it made him scum? Weird. Since we need to consolidate though, I am more confident in a Tunkeg lynch at the moment. | ||
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On December 12 2012 02:04 marvellosity wrote: The number of people 'uncomfortable' or whatever word you want to use about Adam's lynch makes me feel quite good about it at the moment. Why do you think he's a better lynch than tunkeg? | ||
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Hm. Tunkeg's appeal looks to me like a martyr of some sort. Why wait for a wagon on him to dish out reads? Anyways, I'm not sure I'd like a BL lynch. Clarity's case on him feels forced, and I'm really not feeling him being scum. Here's three reasons on why Tunkeg is the best lynch we have. 1. Equation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=32#632 (this makes little sense from a town perspective) 2. Meta: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#481 3. Lack of Scumhunting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=225844 @marv: After reading the above, do you still figure this: On December 11 2012 12:13 marvellosity wrote: yes. Maybe I've been infected by Palmar o.o Seriously though, for Tunkeg it's the absence of towniness, for Adam it's the presence of a scum mindset (oops! treated you as town there for a minute... back to shouting at you again!) Because, afaik, Adam actually went after vivax and has some signs of being interested in the game. You know his meta better than I, but Tunkeg's just not feeling right, especially with bit #1 and #3. Also, what is your say on point #2? Bug's meta examples were pretty convincing. @Clarity_nl: actually hold on there buddy. Here you show that jay was your top scumread and you clearly wanted to lynch him: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=423&topic_id=384953 Here you say that you don't like an Adam lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#464 And here you say that you enjoy a Tunkeg lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=26#509 But then you suddenly make a case on BL and try to make a wagon on him. If you really enjoyed a Tunkeg lynch, then why aren't you at least commenting on it or on the cases that stand on it? Why is BL a better choice than Tunkeg? Whatever happened do Jay?? Don't you still find him scum? What has he done to change your opinion of him? | ||
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It's fairly obvious that was a hypothetical supposition. | ||
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There, voted. Clarity, if you are as certain as you seemed earlier that he's scum, why aren't you pushing him? | ||
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It's weird though, if you are looking for other scum candidates and trying to pull wagons on them, that means that you aren't satisfied with a Tunkeg lynch. If you aren't satisfied, why don't you explain this? | ||
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I really don't like how little resistance there is to adam's lynch, look how easily it took off. Compare this to tunkeg, for example. Adam is a lurky player by nature, so that makes me even more not confident. + Show Spoiler + Also, there's no way I'm sheeping debears | ||
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I really need to leave in a couple of minutes. | ||
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and yea, thrawn, that's a nono. I'm too cute for that. | ||
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I'm not really feeling bluelightz or jay yet, tbh. Adam I feel he's just being a lurky town. Sticking with Tunkeg. | ||
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On December 12 2012 08:57 debears wrote: Djo you really don't want to lynch Adam huh? Stop it, he's my minion. Leave him be. | ||
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DJo, I didn't spend all my time tunneling you, don't flatter yourself. One of the reasons I actually went for tunkeg was because of his reaction (or lack thereof) to my case on you. Now, I think vivax and bugs came off looking really really bad after the flip. Vivax. Let us take a gander. His mindset was 100% not inclined towards killing Adam. I mean, look at some of his posts: States clear disinterest in lynching Adam: On December 12 2012 01:51 Vivax wrote: ffs I don't wanna get Adam lynched. Let's get jay cmon, just cause he's out of attention doesn't mean he didn't act scumm.y Shows some soft-suspicion towards Tunkeg: On December 12 2012 02:37 Vivax wrote: Wtf Tunkeg, can't you share your reads some earlier instead of going martyr-mode at this time. Then he includes Adam, but as a last option: On December 12 2012 06:23 Vivax wrote: Either Bluelightz, Jay or Tunk. The initial case against Adam was pretty bad, but his latest activity isn't exactly townie, since he's not been doing anything useful nor defending himself much. He's the last option for me. Then suddenly, WAM BAM KAPLOW. Soft-suspicion on tunkeg yet again (???) and VOTE ADAM On December 12 2012 06:40 Vivax wrote: Dude, that's a really bad attitude. You have 1000 ways to strengthen your arguments other than to accept a mislynch just like that. And even if everybody follows your arguments after that, which is as unlikely as it was before, you still might be super wrong about them, so it also shows you are pretty cocky about your opinion. (Or maybe you're scum who has succeeded in fooling us all) Anyway, 6 votes on Adam so far, count me in for the last 3. I like what grush had to say in this one. Inbefore OMG HE'S BANDWAGONING. ##Unvote ##Vote Adam Why the soft-suspicion on tunkeg? Why the change of heart? Let's see what happens between the last two posts I quoted. There is just this post from grush: On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote: That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. And the post that he quoted from tunkeg, where he added some soft-suspicion yet again. There was no reason to change his mind from a townie perspective, especially with four hours left on the clock. Plenty of time to push his "alternatives". I think he must have assumed that he wouldn't be able to save Adam and decided to bus him. wherebugsgo is also looking bad as shit. He made this significant post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#481 Which made perfect sense at the time (so much in fact that I decided to use part of it). What does it for me though is this. In the post I linked above, here's what he has to say about Adam: There's one thing putting me off from Adam, and that's the fact that he pointed out thrawn's post from Acme regarding his view of millers claiming day 1. It's not as indicative of towniness as something obscure being pointed out in the defense of someone, but it is something to keep note of regardless. Otherwise, whatever. I'm going to ignore him for now since there are bigger fish to fry. Here he shows slight suspicion, but, in his own words, there are bigger fish to fry. This shows reluctance and unwillingness to lynch Adam. On this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#482 He says this: I'd be fine with killing Munk-E as well today, and honestly between Tunkeg and Munk-E IMO we are almost certain to have scum. Any other lynches for now I'm not going to bother with, since there is nothing worse in the thread than what either of these players have posted. Here he shows a fair amount of certainty that one of the two are scum. He does not include Adam. His next post is also consistent with his mindset of not wanting to kill Adam. Here's what he says to thrawn: On December 11 2012 14:53 wherebugsgo wrote: what the fuck, tomorrow? who are you voting on today then, Adam? I think he was convinced by the wave of people wanting to kill Adam. It happens to everyone, and it's often why I ignore people's posts before I make my own reads. (I've noticed this trend over a long period of games-if I follow my own reads I'm often closer to being correct than if I let other people influence me) The tone in which he says "wave of people wanting to kill Adam" seems to me like that of undermining. Bugs does not agree with the wagon on Adam. All of which I've shown so far indicate the mindset in which it is crystal clear he doesn't like an Adam lynch. This is a mindset that scum would have at the point in time in which bugs' post was made. Now note how this mindset is completely broken with this next post: On December 11 2012 17:23 wherebugsgo wrote: You WERE scumhunting in those games. You were also doing stupid shit, but that has nothing to do with it. I'm not lying at all. However you've done nothing to prove that you are town this game. You just complain about my case and yet you still have no reads. I've shown conclusively that on d1 as town you have concrete reads. This game you have none and you clearly have no intention of coming up with them any time soon. There is no evidence to suggest that you've simply decided to change your gameplay all of a sudden either, and your entire defense hinges on that point. If there is a recent game that suggests this, I am all open to read it. However, the fact that you complain in this manner is highly suggestive that you are scum. To everyone else: If you're not voting Tunkeg, Adam, or Munk-E today I want to hear why and I want to also convince you that you should move your vote. Preferably, to Tunkeg. He suddenly casually includes Adam in his group of people to be lynched. Read above what I've posted on how this is NOT in agreement with the mindset he displayed earlier. This seems to me like scum casually throwing in a scumbuddy in their lists. There was no reason whatsoever for bugs to include that name in there, as he didn't mention a single post or give a single explanation of his inclusion of Adam as a suspicious dude. Nothing happened in between these two posts that, to me, could have possibly changed bugs' mind. He spends a bunch of posts later furthering his cause on Tunkeg, pushing his lynch. He then proceeds to include Adam as a second top scumread in his next posts, again, without any sort of explanation. Then suddenly: On December 11 2012 22:38 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm going to go and reread Adam's posts, since Palmar's reads make me uncertain that he is town. If he's not town then it's certainly possible Adam is just off his game for whatever reason. He feels compelled to assess Adam's posts to check if Adam is scum. Note that this decision, the decision to include Adam as scum, came much much earlier than this other post. Why didn't bugs explain his sudden scum-read earlier??. Also, from this same post, he says that he is going to go and reread Adam's posts. Needless to say, there is no conclusion made by himself regarding adam. He asks marv to convince him: On December 11 2012 23:34 wherebugsgo wrote: alright, I'm going to ignore Palmar since he somehow finds both myself and Jay scummier than Tunkeg. The fact that he thinks that makes his opinions irrelevant. Marv-are you still willing to kill Tunkeg? Convince me why I should kill Adam over Tunkeg, and I'll consider switching my vote. Given that they're both even right now I see no reason to switch. During consolidation, the most critical part of day one, bugs takes the day off and just doesn't post. Only comes back when his opinion doesn't make a difference. This is the easiest way there is for scum to not make any commitment. I mean, he had a fair case on Tunkeg right? Making the decision when a huge wagon on Adam (his scumbuddy) is at hand is pretty scary as scum. So yea, he took the day off and decided to post when it wouldn't have really made a difference: On December 12 2012 09:42 wherebugsgo wrote: Are we killing Adam? Tunkeg? What's going on? I have a final in an hour so I've been cramming, apologies for not being around. I don't really like smacking people for IRL stuff, but I dunno, seems pretty damn convenient, especially in the context in which he was at. tl;dr Bugs and vivax look really bad imo. I like my case on bugs the best. Please read it carefully and tell me what you guys think. I will assess my town reads next. | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:01 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding Djo I'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis: The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality. Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo. Hapa! Hello my friend. Let's have a friendly chat. What do you make of my assessment on wbg/vivax? | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:09 Hapahauli wrote: Last bit was @ Thrawn of course, but you just had to go and snipe it all didn't ya Z-Bo? I doubt you will get sniped as much as me this game. You are replacing a rather scummy fellow, so I'm especially concerned with your views. Take your time, tis a lovely evening. | ||
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debears is pretty much obv town. No reasoning here. Palmar is fairly town to me. I wouldn't say he's as obvious as debears, because he did throw suspicion on adam in his video. Since adam gave no good reason for him to feasibly change his views, he'd be forced to bus on day one. This is far-sighted, so for now let's stick with Palmar being town. Thrawn. Townie fellow, no need to worry about him for now. Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads. Clarity is also giving me some townie vibes. His openness about going for another scumread when he went after bluelight seemed modest to me. The scum explanation would be "omg omg I have to find another case that sticks so my scumbuddy with 5+ votes doesn't get lynched" , and I find that unlikely. And uh, that's it I think. Next up is some of the players I haven't really given too much attention this game, mainly VE, BL and uh jay. I'll also have to reassess Djo. I was fairly confident he was scum day one, and opted to go for tunkeg, because a tunkeg-scum Djo-town theory made more sense. But now that I'm fairly sure that tunkeg is town, he suddenly looks juicy again. | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote: I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O Regarding your cases: I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol. I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure. By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality. It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case. I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change. He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in. | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:43 Hapahauli wrote: It's rather hard in my position to understand such "subtlety" since I haven't been in the thread. I'll catch up, read his filter, and get back to you. My initial impressions are as previously stated though. You do that. I'm sleepy as fuck and tired of reading so I'll f5 here until anyone wants to join me and have a friendly fireside chat. | ||
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I'm tempted to agree with you, but in the first part there, where does Djo say that he wouldn't mind lynching Adam in the post you quoted? It might be that I'm sleepy, but I couldn't find it. | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:18 wherebugsgo wrote: How have I blended in when I made probably the strongest counter case to Adam? I didn't have to do that. If I was scum and wanted to blend in I could've just bandwagoned on what was clearly the easiest lynch of the day and taken massive town cred by bussing Adam. Instead I chose to pose an alternative because I actually took a stance on someone other than Adam. Everyone found him scummy. I found someone else scummier. And, in fact, Tunkeg's play is still quite erratic. Secondly, the thing I absolutely hate about this type of jubjub logic is that it only makes sense when you don't think. Why are people attacking me? Because I was the only notable person who didn't hardline against Adam. This is confirmation bias. We saw a scum flip, and now everyone thinks that anyone who was late to the wagon or considered killing other people is scum. Sure, that's normal when there's resistance, but when there was never any resistance to begin with usually it's the people who sheep without reason who are the scum bussing. I.E. VE. I actually had concrete reasons to be voting Adam and I was one of the first players to make my opinion on him clear. The fact that I ultimately chose not to vote him is actually not scummy, because trust me, I'm pretty fucking lazy as scum. So, think about it for a second. You think I'm scum and you apparently hold me to a higher standard than other players. So, what exactly have I done that is not up to your standards? I'm not taking risks? You don't need to take risks to play town! In fact, taking risks is full on retarded as town. I don't think anyone on this forum understands how I operate as scum, seeing as everyone and their mother accuses me of wildly different things as both alignments. I'm notoriously "hard to read" because my play doesn't boil down to "lazy as scum and active as town" unlike the vast majority of other players. I understand that it's bad play to simply try to find scum by making these easy "he didn't want to vote Adam" associations. Too many people (including myself) have such behavior that can easily and mistakenly be associated to be made out as scum. My deal with you is a bit different. My main problem was how you casually included Adam as a possible "lynch possibility", when in your previous posts you don't show that you really thought Adam was a good lynch. For instance, regarding the bolded part. You said two things here:
Now, as I see it, the first thing is wrong, and the second one is really my issue with you. First off, you did not have concrete reasons to vote Adam, or you didn't show them. The transition I'm most concerned off (which was my initial case against you) is how these two posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#481 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#484 Actually turn into you casually including his name: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#496 Nowhere else in your filter do you show concrete reasons to vote for Adam. In addition, you say you were the first to make your opinion on Adam clear. This is true. You clearly stated earlier that you did not want to lynch him. This was evident in those two posts above, and in which I have already gone over in my case. However, I can't figure out for the life of me what you suddenly added him as a top suspect on your list. Now, in your response to it: On December 12 2012 15:21 wherebugsgo wrote: No Z-Boson, I'm not scum. That's fairly evident given the fact that I continually said Adam was my #2 read to Tunkeg. I just wanted to kill Tunkeg over Adam and I would say that again given how I perceived Palmar. There were two reasons I was unsure of lynching Adam and none about Tunkeg. Reason 1 for Adam was that he pointed out something about miller claims that thrawn had said in a previous game. I didn't find that very scummy but it was a fairly minor point of consideration. The other thing was relatively unrelated to adam's behavior but rather how easy it was to lynch him, particularly given Palmar's really strange comments re: his priority of reads. If Palmar really did make his video without knowing his alignment, then he would be pretty hard pressed to bus his teammate Adam if he ended up seeing he was scum after saying all that shit about his posts. That's one reason I'm wary of his other reads. If his other reads are shit, then chances are strong he's not town. And it is clearly obvious Adam was bussed, seeing as there was almost no resistance to the lynch. Everyone wanted him to die except perhaps Clarity (and I'd consider him town) You say that you repeatedly said why Adam was your top suspect. This is not what I'm putting in question. What I'm putting in question is that your posts prior to including Adam are not compatible with you actually adding him in your list. This is the most part of why I think you are scum, because I think that you felt the need to casually include Adam in your suspect list because you knew he was scum. | ||
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I've read them dude. Your meta explanation came at a later point in time, which is not what I'm referring to, You gave reasoning for voting Adam MUCH later than when you included him in your list. I feel that you are trying to pass yourself off as having actually been clear on your stance on Adam all along, which is not the case. | ||
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Gonna pursue other reads cause this isn't going anywhere. | ||
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Regarding your BL case. I don't really think it was a bus from him. I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway". It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:21 marvellosity wrote: What? He's suspicious for making a list and going AWOL, but you don't view him as scummy? Is this really purely based on the fact he voted Adam? ...Didn't I just say that I don't feel it was a bus from him? On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote: @Clarity Regarding your BL case. I don't really think it was a bus from him. I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway". It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. Hmm.. it seems I did. With regards to his lurkiness, and since he's a vet, I'm not gonna make that call. | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote: you don't wanna make the call that he's scummy, but he is 'suspicious' in your words. What would make him scummy to you? What kinda question is this? He'll be scummy when I see scum mentality from him. You have played with him before, right? Do you think he's scum? Do you think he bussed Adam? | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:44 Hapahauli wrote: What marv is getting at is that BL entered the thread spreading suspicion on four players, and never mentioned them again when he comfortably parked his vote on Adam. That seems like scum mentality to me. But what makes you think BL is town? He's a vet dude. If he normally doesn't do that kind of shit, vets who have played with him before will pick up on it. If he was some regular player everyone is played with before, I would be a bit more weary. For the third fucking time, I don't think he bussed. His non-chalant ("bleh. Adam is getting lynched anyways so vote Adam") attitude towards his vote on Adam kinda tells me this. I feel he'd over-explain rather than vote. It's a small tell, but I think there are much bigger fish to fry. | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:47 marvellosity wrote: I'm just curious that you call him suspicious, but you won't call him scummy. What is suspicious if not scummy? Why call someone suspicious then? My views on BL are well documented enough. It is suspicious behavior, which, in my view, is supplanted by the fact that I don't think he bussed. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote: Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? | ||
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On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote: Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me. So if he had given wbg a town read, would he have been looking better atm? | ||
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On December 13 2012 11:54 Hapahauli wrote: Also Z-Bo, who's your top scumread now in the face of the WBG flip? Still Vivax? No, tbh I don't think vivax is scum anymore. Despite his weird-as-fuck vote on Adam, the rest of his play feels to me like he is involved. Jay isn't looking too hot, and neither is Djo. VE is also someone I have to look more carefully, as well as yourself. Point a gun to my head and I'd say jay. | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote: I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads." Reading his filter, he seemed 100% confident that bugs was scum, asking to put vig shots on him, etc. Do you make this to be a scum excuse to not post any real content (which he hasn't done so far) or a town who really actually thinks bugs was scum? | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:03 jaybrundage wrote: The reason i mentioned bluelightz was because i thought clarity's case on him was decent. And i wasn't sure if adam was scum and i had no interest in joining the tunkeg lynch at that moment or lynching my self for that matter. But going over bluelightz filter i have more of a null read on him. While it is possible that he could of been bussing adam. I dont know i think the vote was to close for the majorty of the scum team to be bussing. We are sure to find a scum in the people that didnt vote adam. I would be much happier to kill Djodref as he hasn't done anything remotely town like yet this game. Who would you kill besides Djo? | ||
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I really thought him to be scum day 1 and thought he might be town since he included Adam as scum in his lists, but then again, that might not mean much, because Adam was pretty likely to get lynched when Tunkeg martyred. I'm off to sleep, Gnight | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:36 Tunkeg wrote: So WBG was a jk this game. So my entire scum or stupid analysis on him was wrong. He turened out to be just stupid. Also anyone doubting clarity's claim is stupid. There is no reason at all for a scum clarity to claim such a hit. He had alot of towncred allready, a missed hit like this would only put him back on the radar. Scum don't have a vig, as they would have taken out Palmar with it, doublestacking. Or perhaps some other vet they view as dangerous. With no vig they went for the best safe option, taking out someone who by pushing Adam early was looking very townie, and who wasn't likely to be protected. On December 13 2012 18:49 Tunkeg wrote: It has put him back on the radar. People are looking into him again. Clarity had so much towncred before this hit, that scum would probably put some other guy to claim if they wanted to claim. Also scum would never hit WBG in the shitty position he was in. I find it very likely he would have been lynched day 2 had he not been shot. I would definately have voted for him today. Why are you insistent about clarity having lots of towncred? The way I see it Clar was not exactly mr. town, especially with posts like these: On December 13 2012 08:49 Palmar wrote: No, I think you're more likely to be scum than him. On December 13 2012 08:51 Palmar wrote: honestly it bothers me quite a bit clarity seems not very interested in killing bugs, and did not want to kill adam yesterday. On December 13 2012 09:00 debears wrote: I agree with palmar on clarity for now Floating about. Care to explain? | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:45 Hapahauli wrote: In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota" And you were saying his concise read on WBG made him look worse, that he'd be looking much better if he had a more flimsy stance: On December 13 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote: I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads." Palmar is saying the exact opposite: My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue. Which is the "sense" you agree with Palmar about about? | ||
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You bring an interesting point regarding Tunkeg's "shying away" from Palmar. It's additional fluff for him not to actually scumhunt. I don't understand this passage, though, where you are calling it a scumslip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=69#1361 Calling people dumb like this (reference to potential jailkeepers) is a scumslip. You call town players dumb and bad, mafia players are just mafia players Can you elaborate? | ||
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1. suspicion on you You say I said in my first post I was suspicious of you for not having scum reads. Funny how you didn't quote my post. Here's what I actually said: Thrawn, here you mention that this was all intended to find scum pursuing you. So... now that the cards have been flipped, what the hell are your conclusions?? See, you didn't go anywhere near about explaining your vote on bugs. To be honest, I hadn't even seen you had voted for bugs, because I was expecting an actual analysis out of your little play, but now that I read your filter, I see that you actually did post a one liner saying "bugs came out looking worse, voted him in the thread". 2. bugs' 80%. You say I wanted to lynch bugs because his number was "mathematically incorrect". His number is fine, his logic was bad. However, I never said I wanted to lynch bugs at that time, a blatant lie. I wanted him to explain, he did, and I decided to move on because this wasn't gonna help me get anywhere. 3. Post on munk-E. You say this is an example of having issue with dumb stuff. How in the hell is it dumb to be suspicious of someone who says "I disagree with his logic. I think he is town". You are calling it dumb because of lack of examples I think, but no, it's not "dumb stuff". 4. Tunnel on Djo. Again, another blatant misrepresentation. I didn't drop my Djo case because of "1 small part of my argument being mistaken". I dropped it for the reasons I fucking said in my post: You're not getting lynched today and we need to consolidate... so 5. critique on debears I criticized debears for using bad logic and twisting adam's words. While Adam was in fact scum, it is still pretty evident that debears was twisting a looot of words to make his case. I didn't attack him because he attacked Adam. 6. I am a lurker Naw. I may be posting less, but I'm not a lurker. It should be clear from my filter that I'm actually trying, despite having less posts. Because I actually am. 7. I tunneled Djo pretty much for the rest of day one Absolute bs. Like you even noted, I dropped my pursuit of him entirely and went after Tunkeg and tried very hard to push tunkeg, because I really thought he was scum. Unfortunately for me, Adam the counter-lynch came up as scum. Too bad for me I disagreed with the cases on him (mainly because of debears). So here are SEVEN mirepresentations in which you distort, lie, and exaggerate things I've said or done. Now to the actual part of your case in which you did not imagine things to suit your arguments. ->I'm wrong a lot - Well, deal with it. Can't punish me for being wrong. ->I'm more passive - I'm posting less. I'm on vacation and don't spend most my time in my computer like when I was in school. I'm also pursuing my reads quite a bit when I feel good about them. Just read the part you ignored when making your case. ->Soft defense on Adam. I was pushing Tunkeg like mad, and it never went past three votes. Adam, on the other hand, gained 9 votes on a case full of word-twisting and exaggeration. Since I thought Tunkeg was scum and Adam was town, then, well, it makes sense for me to feel there was more Tunkeg resistance than Adam. ->I didn't bus - Yea, because unfortunately I didn't know Adam was scum and didn't have the option to bus. Too bad for me I was wrong on Adam. ->I'm not around for the lynch - Suck it up. | ||
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On December 14 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote: @ Z-Boson For me, this totally could be a scumslip. Who he is talking about ? How does he know who is actually dumb (potential jks) and who is just playing dumb on purpose (potential mafia players) ? It could be easily explained if he had extra info on players alignment, if he is mafia for example. Honestly, I wouldn't have worried so much about this post if Tunkeg hadn't totally shied away from Palmar when he started to ask questions about it. I could totally see a town player post like this but his reaction feels forced. Like, seriously, what the fuck is that kind of line of thinking ? Why the JK would like to listen to Tunkeg at the first place ? Why would he be emotional ? And now I'm not going to speculate because I have learned from my previous games that this will almost always be futile, especially when we are still in day 2. Now I see what you mean. It makes a lot of sense, and it goes along with the fact that I feel Tunkeg seems waaaay too certain of his reads this game. Btw, corrected your post ^^ I'll revert back to my original thoughts on Tunkeg. I to this day have not gotten over on how he ignored a case I made on a "suspicion" he had. ##Vote Tunkeg Also | ||
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Also, what do you think of Jay? | ||
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I'm glad Jay decided to jump on that though. We'll have a chat tomorrow when I'm less sleepy. | ||
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On December 14 2012 19:20 thrawn2112 wrote: palmar, look through boson's filter. imo his interactions with adam are scummier than djod's. the greatest degree of interaction between them I can find is boson attacking debears for attacking adam. example: note that the only thing this posts accomplishes is soft defending adam. he doesn't call adam townie or scummy, nor does he call debears townie or scummy Here's the most in depth thing boson had to say about adam: Imo this is one of boson's scummiest posts. He does bring up issues with adam's play but ends up dismissing it as "weird." That one word "weird" is what does it for me. and as an added bonus, boson does not appear in adam's final list of reads Thrawn stop making dumb arguments, for the love of god. "I do not appear in adam's final list of reads?". Really, that's what you came up with after I refuted all of your idiot points? Also, I made that post about adam because I was asked to look into him. I only found that small contradiction, but I wasn't gonna capitalize on it because I didn't think he was scum. If one word is what makes you think I'm scum, then you really need to learn how to play mafia. | ||
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Why do you have a town read on jay this game? Here is a case I was writing but saw you declaring him town and kinda stopped cause I wanna hear what you have to say about it, this part, specifically. I don't like jay this game. He's been on the back of my head for most of the game, but this post right here caught my attention: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=76#1508 To put it in simpler words, he's basically saying Clarity and Palmar are scum based on some crazy conspiracy theory. Stupid dumb play and an easy way to make it seem like you are actually thinking about the game. His next post is what makes it even worse: On December 14 2012 06:44 jaybrundage wrote: ^ These are the kinda posts that make people wanna mislynch me He acknowledges that his posts make people want to mislynch him, yet makes the post all the same. Of course, all this is not what he really thinks. Because suddenly: On December 14 2012 11:19 jaybrundage wrote: Annnnyway, Now that I expressed my random thoughts on Clarity and Palmar. Anyone still down for a Djodref lynch? ##Unvote ##Vote Djodref And when I made the "scumslip", he immediately dropped his vote on Djodref on me: On December 14 2012 14:43 jaybrundage wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Z-Boson He keeps referring to himself as lynch bait through-out the whole game, and seems to be trying to stay consistent with that. So yea, it doesn't seem like he is even trying to scumhunt.. | ||
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On December 15 2012 02:30 Clarity_nl wrote: Zbo why so scummy? Jay's been like that all game, you act as if you just noticed. And what are you getting at? He's town because of it? As you can tell from my filter, he's been in the back of my mind during quite some time. I want to understand Palmar's town read on him (and apparently yours too). | ||
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On December 15 2012 03:50 Clarity_nl wrote: No, I don't have a townread on him at all, but your post of suddenly noticing he's been scummy all game is worrisome. I cannot remember you mentioning jay being a worry of yours but I haven't read your filter thoroughly, nows a good a time as any Yea, try reading before you open your mouth. That certainly helps | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:22 Vivax wrote: Palmar just doesn't remember my defense of our JK against Palmars shit-tier spamming post before he got shot by our supersmart vigi. NOW THAT'S something scum would do. Defend a townie when everyone's shitting on him.Blending in like from the handbook. Instead he prefers to assume that only scum would defend other scum day1, the day where every townie knows exactly where to find the first successful lynch by sheeping his majesty of Eyjafjallajökullfuckyou. Do you think Palmar is scum or are you just casually suggesting this? | ||
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On December 15 2012 04:03 Clarity_nl wrote: You mentioned jay surprisingly little, in fact I'd say you've soft-defended him more than you've called him scum. You first mention. You'd be "satisfied" with a jay lynch. But 11 minutes later.... You're not feeling a jay lynch? But you just said you'd be satisfied with a jay lynch.... He's scum again, because of the adam flip and wbg flip? Do you have some association case that I haven't seen? Fact of the matter is he hasn't scumhunted, he looked very scummy day 1 and he hasn't done anything since. The thing that bothers me is that you act as if you just noticed, and when I call you on it you backtrack and say "he's been in the back of my head for a while, look at my posts". I just did, I don't see it. So I ask again, why so scummy? From one of my posts that you just quoted: Dudes gone awol and his recent posting is not at all acceptable. That means I did notice it earlier! Hooray! I'd been satisfied with a jay lynch, sure. But I wanted to lynch Tunkeg. I felt Tunkeg was a better lynch. I did not feel like jay was a better lynch. Where is the contradiction? | ||
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You're not feeling a jay lynch? But you just said you'd be satisfied with a jay lynch.... Also, you are saying I am acting like I didn't notice it earlier. Except I did, proven by the post I quoted. Whether I found him scummy/unacceptable is something you are bringing up now. Why are you this inquisitive about me agreeing with Jay being scum? | ||
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Yes, quite. I dunno if you already mentioned Jay, but what do you make of him? | ||
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We have a history of sniping each other | ||
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Djo's someone whom he "leaning scum" in day one. I've already went over how his lack of response to my case on a "suspect" he had was bothersome, but I mean, his play in day two is completely nonsensical. He talks down to djo and actually criticizes palmar for wanting to lynch Djo, a supposed scum read. This makes no sense from a town perspective. See these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=82#1634 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=82#1637 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=83#1644 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=84#1663 | ||
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dis game | ||
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I think controltab + f5 is the real deal :D | ||
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And yet I still snipe you GG | ||
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What do you make of vivax? I'm getting scummy vibes again from him. his town read on palmar is kinda weird given his filter | ||
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On December 15 2012 08:25 Hapahauli wrote: Pretty convinced Vivax is town. His reaction to Bugs trolling us at the end of N1 seemed really really genuine. Can you link? | ||
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I'll check it later when I get back | ||
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Here's my take at the game at the moment. First of all, I'd only consider Clarity and thrawn to be almost-confirmed town for now. I see no reason for scum to hard bus day one or two. On day two, scum were behind due to Adam's lynch and really needed a mislynch. Day one it's pretty straightforward. If we assume this, some associations can be made. For example: vivax and jay are not the same scum team vivax and Bluelightz are not in the same scum team. Palmar and Djo are not in the same scum team. etc. Of course, these associations are only useful when scum has flipped (I'm trying out this kind of thinking this game and keeping track on some of them). But they help me in thinning out the possible scum list. Marv, for example (well, pretty much the only example), is a player certainly capable of bussing adam in the way he did as scum, but I don't think this is the way , given how he's playing the game. Palmar, another capable player, is someone I'm very null on in this stage of the game. His play so far seems to be in alignment with how he spoke pre-game (adam is prob scum, djo is prob scum, etc.) This is something he'd have to do as scum, and something he'd likely do as townie, so it could go either way. Unless both these players are scum, I feel it is likely one will die tonight, so I'm not gonna due too much research into them. If one of them is scum, I would lean scum on Palmar. After some rereading some, I feel marv's vote on Adam doesn't look like a bus. Anyways, I'll wait after the night to actually make any decisions regarding them, to me right now they are both town. Originally I had a semi-town read on BL, but this recent post: On December 15 2012 09:12 Bluelightz wrote: Lazy about scum hunting - People ignoring me and saying every post I make scum or is somehow scummy... (I post something other guy says "Thats why you should vote BL") Has some fair amount of qq that seems to be a subtle attempt of justifying his lack of scum reading. I'll have to read more on him. Djo is certainly a capable player to seem as invest as he is. But I don't like some of his play this game, especially the lying Palmar mentioned. I also don't like how he has been buddying me, despite having posts like these on his filter, that spread some light suspicion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=72#1437 @ Z-Bo I'm gonna be seriously concerned about you if you don't find a mafia player today. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=49#963 The hypothetical scenario is the scenario where Z-Bo is chasing only me for the next days. In this hypothetical scenario, I would need to revise my current town read on him. (there was one more that I remember marv even noted, but I feel lazy to go back and look for it) He also has some strange behavior towards Vivax. Vivax soft defends Djo early in day one. Djo then makes a case on vivax (after I note vivax's suspicious behavior towards Adam): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=50#1000 But then quickly changes his mind due to his interaction with bugs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=69#1377 On Vivax, I'll go ahead and say that I don't really agree with this town read, in the linked post. Saying how he thought bugs was town is fairly null (or I'm not understanding the townread correctly). Hapa's earlier townread on Adam making a case on vivax is also something I disagree upon. It's actually quite reasonable to me. The importnat thing he's missing is that marv had agreed with the case on Adam at that point. Palmar's video was also up at the time, so it's a fair chance that Adam was getting lynched. He also just made a case on Vivax and scrammed, didn't push Vivax at all, and didn't even vote for vivax, which leads me to believe that Adam did NOT intend for vivax to be lynched. As a matter of fact, note that he not only doesn't push vivax, but he declares him "obvious town" in his own martyr post, as "obvious town": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=42#825 Obvious town to me: Palmar, Clarity, dabears, Marv, Thrawn and Vivax. So that, in my opinion, turns Hapa's association on Vivax totally invalid, and maybe arguably even the opposite, given to how weird his stance on Palmar was lately. I also have to read more carefully on him. tl;dr
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On this game so far, he has near the same amount of posts as the finished rock band mafia game. Except that save the first post, they are mostly one liners. Here are some very interesting posts from said game, which are in contrast to his play here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=25#484 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=9#179 All this is refuted by him saying "he's lazy". Hmm. | ||
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I think either scum has a vig or town has a vig. Since only one vig shot was used, and vig shots are usually used in day one, then only one faction has vig. I'd lean town vig, because Clarity seems to be playing to his townie meta. The only weird part about this is that Adam's claim to be able to "prove" he's a vig suggests that he could actually have evidence to back it up. That or he was just simply lying through his teeth to save himself for another day. | ||
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seems both factions had vigs ;D Gg palmar and clarity | ||
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It's interesting you mention Hapa. I also noted his change of mind on VE, and Hapa's usually not one to sheep like that. I look forward to his defense. @Djo I like how you are actually trying. One question though, why post a BL case right after making a case on your main suspect? | ||
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On December 17 2012 11:19 jaybrundage wrote: Just to be clear i think it would b a mistake to lynch anyone but you;. Palmar wanted you dead for good reason. What? Didn't palmar specifically say he wants VE dead as well? | ||
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I don't like how he disappeared and hasn't really responded to anything. He doesn't seem interested in the game AT ALL. If you guys recall, we hadn't interacted at all up until he noted my "scumslip". He then made his "case" on me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=81#1607 And parked his vote on me. This came at a time when I had some pressure on me. I agree a lot with Djo's point on how he is really just going with the flow. Note how his play is in complete contrast with his game on Liquid City. When he found me to be scum, he spent quite some time interacting with me, prodding around asking other people (BC) what they thought of me, etc. He then gave some attention elsewhere when I wasnt getting any traction. Take a look at the interaction that begins in the last 4-5 posts of this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=117978¤tpage=8 And some in the next page as well. This game it's complete and utter crap. He gives a crap reason (that basically surmounts to: I'm prodding people everywhere) and doesnt push me, doesnt do shit. He parks his vote on me and keeps it there, saying later just how he'd be down to lynch me. Doesn't ask other people what they think of me, doesn't try to push his "scum read". There's also that whole Palmar wants him dead thing. I'm curious to see what his next move is. | ||
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On December 16 2012 09:17 Palmar wrote: VisceraEyes cannot be anything but scum at this point. If this is his new town game, I hate it, because the VE I knew and loved was loud, didn't take shit, took random leads and stabs at people. This chilled back non-active VE is either his scum play, or some shitty ridiculous new town meta. Djodref is almost certainly scum, the resistance to his wagon on day 2 was just ridiculous for someone who got caught lying like a retard. I have zero understanding of why anyone who is town would even consider not lynching him. It's strictly the wrong play not to kill him. He must be killed or this game is lost. Jaybrundage has very little to defend him, but there's just so many people that need much more attention than him in this game. He could very well be scum, but after killing VE and Djodref you guys should have a clearer picture to look at. don't let scum push this false wagon. I don't see that as "trouble reading VE". It looks to me like he read VE just fine and made a concessive remark in case VE flips town. I also corroborate on this with my above post using Liquid City as an example. | ||
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On December 17 2012 12:11 Djodref wrote: @ Z-Bo Aren't you supposed to be against taking dead people opinions into account ? I think that I've read something saying this somewhere. Could you enlighten me ? What the fuck? Quote it please. | ||
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On December 17 2012 12:18 Djodref wrote: No, I totally agree with you on VE. I'll try to find it back but it was something like "Z-Bo is going to yell at me for listening to the opinion of dead people" in an obsQT Do you or not ? That (obviously) is not a quote by me. That (obviously) does not represent my opinion (watch in mario obs qt how pissed I was that no one listened to my reads). That (obviously) is not alignment-indicative. What is your point? | ||
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There's no way in hell both you and Djo are town. And please, tell me why you honest and truly think I'm scum?? Is it because of that half-case you didn't push? | ||
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Right now I'd lynch into Hapa/jay if this checks out. grush also kinda looks weird with his vote. | ||
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If no one counters I'm gonna leave my vote on Jay I think | ||
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On December 18 2012 07:56 Vivax wrote: Please wait for 15 more minutes, so I can have a little talk with you before we all leave after deciding our votes. This shit is important. 15 minutes cause VE has 10 in my book to post his reads. you got it sir | ||
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I gotta place my vote in like 5 min | ||
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Palmar is almost sure he's scum. He has no crumb. Even in LC mafia he had some sort of crumb. His push on me makes no fucking sense from a townie perspective. Refer to Liquid City mafia. It's risky for a cop to counter-claim right now, he'll get nked with little chance to actually investigate. Everything points to VE being scum. The alternative to that is a no-lynch, which gets us nowhere. I have to go right now, so I'll take his bluff. ##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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Hope to see some red when I get back | ||
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On December 18 2012 21:42 Djodref wrote: I like how VE, jay and Hapa wanted to lynch Z-Bo. I'm expecting a meta-case on Z-Bo again, and him getting lynched like in Mario. @ Z-Bo What do you make of this ? Could you give us some reasons for your activity level being lower than usual this game ? About my activity, I think I'm more involved than I was in Mario. Still not as much as in some of my other games, but that's because I'm on vacation and living the good life. Regarding jay/Hapa. They went after me as soon as thrawn opened the wound. Scum are generally much more comfortable seconding some other reads. If you note VE's post, look how he said he was re-writing his post on me or whatever, and a bunch of time later, his "case" on me is a couple of quotes, and doesn't push it. I should have realized this much earlier, this is a rather strong tell Jay's jump on my slip was really pointless as town. He hasn't mentioned me since. Regarding Hapa, his play is really off from his meta. He play is characterized by making cases, but he also does that as scum. What mostly unsettles me is how he's not thrown anyone against the wall this game, and doesn't have not nearly as much OMGUSing going on as in his townie games. Now that VE has flipped red, I want even more to lynch into them tomorrow. Their stances on VE, as noted above, didn't look so townie, moreso with jay. Hapa isn't known for sheeping like that, and Jay blatantly tried to "prove" VE was town with some backwards-ass logic. I am also interested in grush. It's very easy to feign bussing when you never give any reasons or logic. He was like DJODJODJO but suddenly went "nah, VE". They both have decent chances to flipping scum, but I reaaally want to lynch Jay. | ||
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Why did you vote VE, if you said your main suspects were jay, Djodref and Hapahauli? | ||
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On December 18 2012 22:29 Djodref wrote: Not to mention Jay's reaction to VE's claim. And the fact that jay is totally following Palmar on me but really not on VE. Wait, you also did the same thing. As soon as day three cracked, you followed palmar on VE but not really on BLuelightz. To whom your first reaction when prodded was "I can't believe I'm getting lynched over that guy" instead of "because I think he's scum" To whom you are not even contemplating right now. Oh Djoey, I'm still not liking you. A bit of WIFOM, but I'm getting the feeling that VE was gambling on living as Cop and automatically making you look green as well. That's something he'd totally do. From a townie perspective, why would you make a case on bluelightz right after you made yours on VE? I still can't understand this. | ||
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On December 19 2012 00:29 marvellosity wrote: Mostly because my reads were kinda in flux the relationships between jay/djo/hapa seemed to make sense when I'd done some rooting around (hapa defending djo, jay fail-pushing djo, etc), so I thought I'd see what people thought about it (hence the lack of a vote at the time). Hapa persuaded me to unvote him on time issues, and I was losing confidence in a Djo lynch That left VE who still wasn't doing anything and really seemed the safest lynch of the lot after all. Which was right thankfully. I see. Do you agree with my meta read on Hapa? He hasn't OMGUSed like one single person this game and it's creeping me out. | ||
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Yea, totally not interested in thrawn at the moment. Regarding Hapa, remember it was OK to vote VE because Palmar said so. I'm really interested in jay right now. Post inc. | ||
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First of all, I don't agree with his WIFOM defense. He's on a team with VE, lord of WIFOMs, and if he acknowledges it would be the "dumbest" play as scum, then that's a play he would be willing to do. If we don't take WIFOM into consideration, the only thing that results is his actions - trying to stop a VE lynch, which is 100% mafia agenda. He was also quite quite convinced of his "logic" on how VE was town (which to me makes no fucking sense). Let's take a gander at this other topic, which I think is quite damning. Jay's stance on Djo In the beggining of the day, jay is mega-fucking-power convinced that Djo is scum. He cites Palmar on how he wanted Djo dead (whilst ignoring VE, but we'll get to that). Observe: On December 16 2012 08:06 jaybrundage wrote: I would be down for a djo lynch. On December 16 2012 14:17 jaybrundage wrote: I support a Djodref lynch. On December 16 2012 14:22 jaybrundage wrote: ##Vote Djodref On December 17 2012 11:19 jaybrundage wrote: Just to be clear i think it would b a mistake to lynch anyone but you;. Palmar wanted you dead for good reason. There's no mistaking it, he really does think Djo is scum (or so he makes it look like). Once VE starts getting a few votes in, he flips the switch. And decides to vote... ME! No reasoning at all. The only mention he has of me that's earlier than that is when he "pressure voted" me on my joke-slip. On December 15 2012 09:30 jaybrundage wrote: Nope nope nope. My reason last time was to stop a no lynch. We didn't have enough to lynch adam until i stepped in. Also if tunkeg is scum like adam was scum. Why wouldn't I want to keep the lynch on him. Im just following what town wants to do. (If town is indeed the reason we reached this majority) Back to catching up. Oh and if anyone is curious. On my Z-Boson Vote yesterday. It was just a pressure vote. So he initially disagrees that I'm a scumread. He didn't push me, didn't mention me, so I'm cool with him right? So now he for some reason, decided that he would try to sway the vote onto ME, of all people. Why me? Why not Djo, why not Vivax, why not someone else he's been suspicious of this game? On December 18 2012 09:23 jaybrundage wrote: Hmm I dont think VE is scum. In fact i would say that im pretty dam postive VE isnt scum. Seeing how easily this lynch is going. And considering that my vote isnt on VE and they already hit 7. This isnt a bus. This is a Mislynch. Switch to Zboson plz. ##Unvote ##Vote Z-Boson And his suspicions on Djo totally disappeared. He suddenly treats Djo as if he's townie: On December 18 2012 09:50 jaybrundage wrote: Djo are you here too. get off the lynch wagon we can do this On December 18 2012 09:47 jaybrundage wrote: Considering that he is actually considering this. I would say no. As scum would be against it. I could see a scum team being. Vivax, Z-Boson, And my favorite Marv. Anyone down for a Vivax or Zboson lynch But regardless if we dont consoldate i think we should get of VE And also this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=123#2456 Normally I'd agree with Hapa that he's setting himself up to attract too much attention to himself, but what makes the deal for him is how little sense he makes in his choices. A regular townie would likely have tried to sway onto someone he had actually thought suspicious at least one other time in the game. He also acknowledges that as scum he'd have to be really stupid to do that, so this means he's self-aware of this. He also would have been a team with VE, who would have told him to do that and would thus justify the biggest 180 I've ever seen. How "misunderstood" he is This is evidence that lines up with his actions. He keeps referring to himself as how he's misunderstood, at how easy it is for him to get mislynched. I view this as a setup for him to make the nonsensical decisions he has made this game as well. I'm lazy to quote them, but multiple times this game he's made it a point to say such a thing. His blatant misdirection on Palmar's post I decided to separate this from the original quote he cited from Palmar. I noted this earlier, but I'll emphasize it right now because I think it's important. Let's take a look at this interaction with me: + Show Spoiler + On December 17 2012 11:53 jaybrundage wrote: I feel more confident in my Djodref lynch. I think his diverting attemps day 1. Also the crazy resistance to his lynch day 2 are likely cause he is mafia. Also Palmar was having trouble reading VE. On December 17 2012 12:11 Z-BosoN wrote: Jay this is the part that needs to be bolded: I don't see that as "trouble reading VE". It looks to me like he read VE just fine and made a concessive remark in case VE flips town. I also corroborate on this with my above post using Liquid City as an example. On December 17 2012 12:20 jaybrundage wrote: Z-bo right after Palmar says that. He then goes on to speculate if VE could be town. He wasnt as confident in that read as he put out. Regardless its not just Palmar's reasoning that I want to lynch Djodref. Hes been scummy for a while. He took one part of the post that Palmar made to support his wanting to go after Djo, but let us remember that Palmar also specifically said that VE was perhaps a better lynch due to how "certain" it was that he was scum. Why did jay simply ignore this? Why didn't jay bother discussing on VE at all? How in the goddamn hell does he feel VE is a mislynch when a confirmed Palmar said he specifically wanted Jay dead? If Jay really thought him to be town, why didn't he defend VE earlier when town was still indecisive? This even more supports the idea that Jay was asked to do this in the scum QT or something like that. I'm gonna be real clear and specific here, because I think we just hit the spot. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=117#2333 On December 18 2012 09:23 jaybrundage wrote: Hmm I dont think VE is scum. In fact i would say that im pretty dam postive VE isnt scum. Seeing how easily this lynch is going. And considering that my vote isnt on VE and they already hit 7. This isnt a bus. This is a Mislynch. Switch to Zboson plz. ##Unvote ##Vote Z-Boson Jay hadn't mentioned or talked to VE at all. Jay hadn't mentioned me as a scum read at all. This post instantly and out of nowhere introduces two things that were never discussed nor made clear in jay's filter. tl;dr Everything points towards him purposefully drawing attention to himself (his self-awareness, his remarks on how mislynchable he is, his sudden and abrupt turnaround on TWO aspects of his game). His play makes no sense a billion times over from townie perspective (Djo thing is just... wtf). WIFOM aside, he's pushing a mafia agenda. Jay is scum. Discuss. | ||
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Carry on | ||
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Waiting on you to explain my concerns in the case I made. | ||
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Same way he voted Adam when he had 7 votes. Only on Adam, since he really couldn't add anything (or got lazy), he just went and voted without a case. Of course, I'm not judging you by VE. I'm judging you by your play, and how zero sense it makes coming from a townie. | ||
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Regarding you attacking me soon after thrawn made the case, you're right, you just kinda agreed how I was disengaged and that's about it. However, though I still suck big time in making meta reads, your play feels totally weak and passive towards what I'm used to. Maybe not necessarily as scummy as I was making it, but still, could be you being lazy scum, and it certainly isn't helpful. I'll check you out tomorrow. Meanwhile, can you give some thoughts on Jay/Djo? Do you still have your townread on Djo, considering the BLuelightz thing I highlighted and how he seems to focus on non-alignment-indicative stuff (mainly discussing whether or not I believe in using advice from the dead)? Also, what do you make of BL/grush who have gone into overdrive lurking mode? | ||
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Yes, that is why I said "you're right". I wasn't as engaged as I was in liquid city/LVII, but I was definitely more engaged than with mario I think. Pages of filter is different from overall presence though. Your play is marked by you trying to take control and make people follow you, which is totally not going on. Sure you don't do that as either town nor scum, but it fits scum play much better. Anyways, if you are town I think one of BL/grush could be scum as well. Which is a coinflip, cause I seriously cannot read them. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=75#1499 ANYWAYS VE is playing super illogical, but he seems like an honest townie Since he never gives his reasoning on anything, it's difficult to tell, but out of nowhere he includes Djo and me+VE as scumteam. (at a time when VE already had some pressure, after the Palmar post): On December 16 2012 13:00 grush57 wrote: I don't know why they would shoot Clarity... So by Palmar's and marv's reads I'm going to put Bluelightz off the lynch list. GET DJORDEF. Z-Boson and VE other scum? if theres 4?? So yea, in both that instance and on the instance he 6th-voted Adam, they already had a bunch of suspicion on them. | ||
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I'm having a busy day. Gonna be checking in sometime tonight | ||
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On December 19 2012 15:11 jaybrundage wrote: Hm i wanna say Z-boson from my gut read. But its nothing else besides that. gut reads gut reads. Can't you show me why you think I'm scum? Is this too much? Eagerly awaiting tomorrow. | ||
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On December 20 2012 02:58 Vivax wrote: I'm counting on Djo, thrawn, jay and grush to support me in a Hapa lynch. If you guys I just mentioned have any doubts, feel free to express them. We need some discussion, not blind jay votes. Hapa didn't even vote for him yet after writing he did. That shows how much he cares about that lynch. It's so obvious he's scum I'm having ball cramps. Why do you think Jay is not scum? Is it because of the whole VE making a case on him day 1 thing? Haven't you read what I said regarding that? | ||
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On December 20 2012 05:26 grush57 wrote: It's definitely in the three of Z-Bo Jay and Hapa. I'm fine with all, but I'm more sure of a Jay and Hapa scumteam. Why do you think BL is town? | ||
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On December 20 2012 10:41 Djodref wrote: And also because of the fact that Vivax is quite disruptive... I mean, I have a town read on Vivax right now, but there is still a slight possibility for him to be scum... Same with Z-Bo, he has been pretty townie this game, but his play is a little too 'clean', and he does fly under the radar. But this also speaks again a town Hapa. In Hapa shoes, I would be much more paranoid than he is. Hapa is basically saying that we have to lynch BL and that's going to be GG... Can you elaborate why you think my play has been "too clean"? | ||
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On December 20 2012 12:24 jaybrundage wrote: Ok lets try to work thru the logic of a twisted mind. Ok 10 people were in the game at the time. We had 7 people on VE when i came in the thread. If marv is right about there being 4 mafia then that means that one of the mafia was on VE as i as town was not. Remember i wasn't around for much of the VE lynch as i was working. So as last time i wasnt here and we mislynched tunkeg. I thought a similar thing would happen and that scum would drive the lynch if town didnt have my input (egotistical much). Also i wanted to lynch Djo. I wasnt as sure with VE. I then made the bad leap of logic that if one mafia was on VE that VE must be town or mafia wouldnt of voted for him. Not knowing that town made a good push for this lynch and it wasnt scum driven. So i assumed VE was town as well meaning two mafia were on the lynch and I had this conviction that VE was town. Any questions? Why are you assuming mafia don't bus? Newsflash, VE was bussed. | ||
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Also tell me, If jay for some (miraculous) reason flips town, who would you say is scum? | ||
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##Vote jaybundrage | ||
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On December 20 2012 13:22 Djodref wrote: You look too town to be town You only present solid cases, you don't make random comments that could make you look bad. You are pretty solid this game, I would be impressed if you turn out to be mafia. Haha I'm glad I achieved this. It's so much easier to look for scum when you don't have to defend yourself all the time, this was something I was working on (which kinda failed in mario). Don't worry though, I'm as townie as townie gets | ||
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On December 15 2012 09:12 Bluelightz wrote: Lazy about scum hunting - People ignoring me and saying every post I make scum or is somehow scummy... (I post something other guy says "Thats why you should vote BL") Which basically said he was lazy that he was scumhunting because people are ignoring him and saying that every posts he makes is scummy. Except that right now, people are begging him to do some scumhunting, he's not getting lynched today, and yet he still doesn't come up with anything useful. I find this quite interesting. | ||
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On December 20 2012 13:39 thrawn2112 wrote: Go read the conversation between marv and blue that happened a few pages back and tell me if you still think he's scum. true he's not really doing anything but he's contributed more than jay. the last two days jay has clocked out as soon as he's pressed to talk about his scumreads...why? he doesn't have any. he didn't even respond to my question a short while ago. Because he's telling us why he's voting jay? Because he noted how faulty jay's logic was and how jay didn't explain it properly? Because he disappeared after marv said "ok for now"? I disagree with marv's dismissing him, BL still hasn't done anything productive and is appearing mostly when called out. He promised a "full response" which I'm yet to see. I hope that if he's town he actually becomes more helpful. | ||
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On December 20 2012 14:59 jaybrundage wrote: I already said Z-Boson. Take at look at how he votes. For both the adam and the VE lynch he didnt even help them get lynched. He waited till they were already had enough votes and then threw his vote in. He hasn't helped us lynch scum yet (as in use his vote to get them lynched) I also find VE's last minute pointed fingers at Z-Boson a way to set him up to look more townie. Thoughts? I see some effort here. I especially liked the part where you said I voted for Adam. Like thrawn said, that logic can be applied to many people this game, so yea. You are also displaying some kush mafia thinking. "Bah I'm getting lynched regardless, so w.e.". Another example of how you are displaying scum mentality. The only advantage a dead townie has is that his cases when he was alive are 100% bullshit-free. What you are doing is just neglecting that and dismissing your opportunity to do some real scumhunting. Well you are flipping red anyways so, forget what I said  | ||
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On December 20 2012 22:03 Djodref wrote: It reminds me something Also, just to give you some heads-up, I'm going to take a flight back to Paris in 12 hours for my annual holidays in France. My activity is going to drop very soon because I don't see my family and my friends in France often so they are going to resent it if I spend too much time in front of my computer. Also I don't have an internet phone back home. Oh this reminds me, I'm going to go to california in the 23rd with my family, so from that point on I'm gonna be posting by phone, and not that frequently, should I still be alive | ||
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On December 20 2012 23:36 marvellosity wrote: Firstly Djodref, don't ask people to concede, because that is the opposite of respectful ^^ Let's go through a couple of hypotheticals. If I'd died last night, would that have made it more or less likely that Hapa was scum (let's remove other behaviour for the moment). Or is it just the fact that Hapa has talked about the night actions a few times that are making you lean more heavily that Hapa is scum? If we take the base assumption that last night mostly town was thinking jay and probably Hapa, what do you think Hapa is gaining from doing what he's done and said about the night kills? If anything, it's made people think he's *more* likely to be scum, correct? I'm not getting my point across very clearly :/ What I'm trying to say is that you're actually yourself wifoming the night actions, and who knows if the night actions weren't made to incriminate Hapa further? It can be argued that Hapa *wouldn't* draw attention to the night-kills if it was a cunning plan. What I want from Hapa is for him to explain his play. I've pointed out two or three contradictions in things that he's said, and there's always been an explanation (that was dumb, dunno what I was thinking, whatever) and thrawn pointed out another further up on this page. The issue is not any single one contradiction but the fact they keep popping up indicates a longer-term pattern of not being able to keep a story straight. Z-bo - what's your opinion on Hapa right now? From your recent filter it seems like you're more suspicious of BL, but it's not totally explicit. So BL, knowing you were flying and real life, yesterday's contributions were your best attempts? His lack of presence makes it harder for me to read him. He makes some valid points on BL, which I agree with, but that's nothing alignment-indicative when it comes to hapa. I'm going to look at him more carefully once jay flips. Since Jay is most likely flipping red, I'll need to see if his push on Jay looks like a bus and all of that. There was a time where hapa gave him a slight town read: On December 13 2012 12:43 Hapahauli wrote: Also, I'm really not getting any scummy vibes from Jay. Other than Adam's vote on him, there's some stuff like deliberately antagonizing Palmar (YOUR vs. YOU'RE), which seems fairly townie in context. Palmar didn't like Jay's posting, and Jay turns around and starts poking Palmar with a stick. I think scum would have more of an inclination to hide and appear diplomatic rather than antagonizing your accuser. And I'll have to see at what point exactly did he choose to bus, assuming he's scum. | ||
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But there's something I don't like in vivax's filter. His views on VE just don't feel right. he begins the day with this post: On December 17 2012 02:38 Vivax wrote: What's off about VE is that he defended Tunkeg against some pretty strong cases before the Adam lynch,namely by marv. + Show Spoiler + On December 12 2012 03:45 VisceraEyes wrote: This post right here is why I'm not interested in lynching Tunkeg today. wherebugsgo is very opinionated about the play of others, and isn't a bit shy about calling out their play if he sees it as "bad" or "dumb". This post by Tunkeg seems genuinely confused by Bugs' assertion that his play this game is unlike his play in other, town games because Bugs has, in the past, called his play "bad" and "dumb". It seems scum would be more pissed off at the contradiction than confused - that scum would incredulously OMGUS such an assertion because it's clearly in contrast with what he had said at the time. His reads post reads EXACTLY like the "town" example Bugs provided, aside from the whole giving up and "me flipping town will confirm Palmar as town" nonsense...which could be contrived or honest - but frankly I'm not in the business of figuring out which today because I don't think Tunkeg is a good lynch today. Tunkeg's filter isn't spectacular, but it's way better than like, Bluelightz for example...or grush. I'd be more interested in a grush or Bluelightz lynch than Tunkeg. Certainly jaybrundage and Adam. I'm not touching Tunkeg with a 10 foot pole today. And Bugs, THAT is a derail bish.  Now, onto Adam. I'd have expected a scum VE to profit of the situation by helping a player with a good reputation like marv to push his lynch and take away attention from the Adam lynch. Him trying to lynch jay isn't compatible with theories involving both of them in a scum team either.Additionally, most people were mostly disinterested in a jay lynch, and that stinks of him being scum. Bluelightz would have been an easy lynch to push at many timings, yet VE expressed his disbelief of him being scum, in spite of how easy of a mislynch he'd have been. + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2012 03:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Going back and reading it again, I don't like it very much. It's strewn with true statements (scum care about how they look more than town, Bluelightz calls X strange instead of scummy, etc) but has too many suppositions for my liking. For instance, why is Blue calling something strange instead of scummy alignment indicative? Why can't it just be strange? Why does the fact that he found further reasoning for voting Adam NECESSARILY mean that he cares about looking like a sheep? Why can he not have just found further corroborating evidence and posted it? To be honest, I'm not sure what I think about Bluelightz myself, but your case isn't convincing me of much - only that Bluelightz is playing, as marv said, like Bluelightz. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but work, lynch, sleep, etc. I liked it before the flip - not so much after the flip. Especially considering Adam put Blue as one of his "probable scum". Of the three people I mentioned at the top of this post, I think Blue is the least likely to flip scum. Not saying much considering I think jay and Bugs have VERY HIGH chances of flipping scum, but Blue's the least likely in my opinion. Then the case about a clarity scum vigi, initially I didn't believe it either, but it was actually possible. I'm not lynching VE today. That said, I suggest that Djo and others should at least elaborate my points. That leaves me with following targets: Jay or BL today. Marv maybe some other day. Spreads some suspicion on VE, yet says he's not getting lynched today. On December 17 2012 09:12 Vivax wrote: Well, marv, you're not gonna get lynched today: ##Unvote ##Vote VisceraEyes You really should be if you survive the next night. See you around at deadline. He then votes VE because "marv isn't getting lynched". Makes a case for VE, because no one else seemed to have one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=112#2224 And now he really really really wants to kill VE. It's like the claim made him want to kill him even more: On December 18 2012 07:42 Vivax wrote: Yes, VE, post your reads quickly and I'll think about it. On December 18 2012 08:07 Vivax wrote: 20 Minutes over I actually told you bullshit, VE. I don't believe your cop claim either way, but thanks for sharing your 'reads' with us. + Show Spoiler + If no one counter-claims?You think it's likely that we have a vigi, a JK, a veteran AND a cop? Look at the timing, he could have claimed 5 hours ago, he's probably just been making this story up in the meantime. He doesn't have a crumb either, aside from half a dozen other reasons he's probably scum. You didn't defend Djo either at the moment it mattered. Have fun on the chopping block. Please don't get fooled by VE. Look at his scumlist, Hapa is actually behind a jay lynch, so it doesn't even make sense in this short span of time. I mean, this kinda looks like a bus to me. First he's not digging VE at all, suddenly he goes after him like a mad dog. I mean, he pummels me when I show a thread of doubt regarding his claim: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=114#2272 This level of certainty after an uncontested cop claim seems unnatural to me. Original I thought Vivax was Cop (it's the only thing that made sense to his reaction), but it occurred to me that three blues may be enough to balance this game, and that he may be scum bussing. @marv (or anyone with experience): is 3 blues enough to balance a 16 player setup?? | ||
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On December 21 2012 07:06 marvellosity wrote: Hapa, someone being lynch-bait doesn't make them not-scum, you should know that. It's not an argument for anything. I presume BL is still your #1 scumread after jay? Despite my/Palmar/whoever's reservations? Z-Bo, 3 blues is fine in a 16 player game. I mean, anywhere between like 2 to as many as 6 could be balanced depending on the roles themselves, and the roles the mafia have. From the lack of roleblock other than me from the JK, it seems like mafia don't have a roleblocker, which is normally the primary scum role, so I'd maybe expect a number towards the lower end, or at least not many strong roles. I don't know how to factor in mafia vigi as I'm unsure on my assessment of how strong it is. On Vivax, meh. I need something more than that to make me worry about him. What exactly gives you the town read on him, his recklessness? | ||
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I don't know wtf is going on lol. Why the town read marv? | ||
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On December 21 2012 07:26 Vivax wrote: Boson, I told VE I might believe him so he would just post his fucking reads. If I said I was going immediately to vote him, he wouldn't have delivered, like he didn't deliver the big post he promised when it was clear he'd get lynched. You clearly don't know how to mindfuck scum. Yes, now that VE has posted his scumreads, the game is as good as solved! Thanks for teaching me and showing me the way! | ||
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shhhh... he's mindfucking the scum, can't you see? | ||
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On December 22 2012 04:12 thrawn2112 wrote: djo? idk yet. i'm still working through my read on hapa and atm that's my top priority. but I want to reference this post: the only way that one of djo/boson/thrawn isn't scum is if all the mafia bussed adam Yea I don't think this is a valid form of approaching the game. It is statistical that scum votes are spread out, but occasionally (as I think is the case this game), they won't be. You should focus your efforts on actual scumhunting, with discussion, etc. , specially now that you and marv are probably dying. | ||
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On December 22 2012 04:30 grush57 wrote: Sigh, I don't know who to lynch now. You want someone to tell you or are you actually gonna start contributing? | ||
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On December 22 2012 05:54 grush57 wrote: Also I never asked anyone to tell me. I don't know. Basically anyone is a lynch candidate at this point, so let's see what the NKs are. So why don't you try figuring it out? Why don't you post your reads or try to be helpful in any sort of way? Cmon dude | ||
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since you are likely to die tonight, what are your thoughts on who's scum now that jay has flipped green? | ||
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Some questions regarding this post I recall from your filter. On December 21 2012 05:09 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah so what? Quote #1: I'm clearly expressing reservations, and I'm not committed to either side. Also... I want to lynch... Jay? How does that make sense from a mafia perspective? Quote #2: I'm clearly not ready to trust VE as you claim. I said I'm not dismissing the claim, not that I want to trust him. Again, it's stupid in such a volatile spot to turn the blinders on in either way, and I'll be damned if you tunnel suspicion on me for having the correct attitude as a townie here. Quote #3: How in the fuck is that "I want to believe VE?" That's me expressing some very clear reservations about VE. Quote #4: Jay is "pants on head" - yes that's exactly what I thought at the time until looking through VE's filter (particularly his last scum-list post) showed me otherwise. What about my attitude there was unreasonable? Hell I took an opinion directly against everyone in the thread for what reason exactly? On #1, why is lynching jay nonsensical from a mafia perspective? I mean, sure, we all thought he was scum at the time, but regardless, I don't see what you mean there. Being a bus or being a mislynch, why did you reason it didn't make sense at that time? On #4, what exactly in VE's scumlist post made you think otherwise regarding jay's pants-on-head read? I remember you saying how jay was super-cordial with someone trying to lynch him or something like that, but can you be more specific on this? | ||
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![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZB6tS3iR6V8/UMhCrpiTc4I/AAAAAAAADLc/icU7N2ljXeI/s1600/ara.jpg) Sons of Honesty! Of Justice! My brothers! I see in your eyes the same quiescence that would take the game of me! A day may come when the activity of town fails, when we forsake our responsibilities and break all bonds of communcation. But it is not this day. A cycle of lies and deceiving scums when the age of Truth comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we post! By all that you hold dear on this good forum, I bid you post! Heroes of the Town! | ||
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I hope to find scum until then with a winning post of GG. Marv is someone that needs to be looked at today. | ||
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Djo, just so I know, are you even going to be reading the thread, will you be able to vote? | ||
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Oh sure Hapa, no problem! Here is what I was referring to! On December 22 2012 08:29 Z-BosoN wrote: @Hapa Some questions regarding this post I recall from your filter. On #1, why is lynching jay nonsensical from a mafia perspective? I mean, sure, we all thought he was scum at the time, but regardless, I don't see what you mean there. Being a bus or being a mislynch, why did you reason it didn't make sense at that time? On #4, what exactly in VE's scumlist post made you think otherwise regarding jay's pants-on-head read? I remember you saying how jay was super-cordial with someone trying to lynch him or something like that, but can you be more specific on this? | ||
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In #4, I'm interested in the passage you are referring to here: VE was super-cordial with Jay's attempts to save him. Jay is far too trusting of a guy who was trying to get him lynched. Where was VE super-cordial? I just want to know this part and try to work out your logic. | ||
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Z-BosoN's Comprehensive Guide to Murdering Scum A townie's guide to victory Part I Ok, I've read enough so I feel comfortable with the game. First of all, Hapahauli is very likely to be scum. Everything in his play points towards this direction. I am not going to waste time depicting how inactive and not present he is, because that's justified with RL stuff (which he has insistent on saying all game) and is consistent with how his meta is different in both his scum and town alignments. I will focus on how he's changing some of his reads and opinions to suit mafia-related goals. 1.) Hapa's town reads This is a rather strong point for me. Normally I agree with his town-reads, it is one aspect I find rather strong in his play. This game it is very different. I remember at a point in the game, most of his townreads were scumreads to me. Of course this is extremely irrelevant if not properly discussed, so here are some examples of townreads he has that come off as weird. This first block is just shit I disagree with, but aren't necessarily scummy. This, for me, has a certain strength because like I said earlier, I usually feel comfortable with his town reads, something which hasn't happened this game. meh reads Djo - His first real townread and one he's had all game. He claims Djo to be town because of his "tryhardness" or something of the like, but mostly ignores the crazy shitton of scummy stuff there is in Djo's filter, such as lying, being inconsistent, etc. etc. There's still room for it being a legit town read here, but this is diminished in context with how he ignored Palmar's views on him. I'll go more on that later. Palmar - Says Palmar is town because he made no attempt to go for someone other than Adam. Meh. I disagree that would be enough for someone like Palmar but let's leave it at that. Vivax - Made quite a fair townread on him, but when I attempted to discuss it at a time when Vivax was doing some suspicious stuff, he pretty much didn't dwelve too much into it, but I think I had a made a fair point, in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=98#1948 Not gonna make this a sticking point because this might go into Hapa not being all that attentive this game or whatever. the fuck? reads Now comes the town reads that really mess things up and that I would judge to be the stronger part of this section. They start off as town reads but later conveniently turn into scum ones. This transition is what gets to me and is the highlight of this part. Tunkeg - Hapa's reaction to Tunkeg's post, initially, is the following: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=52#1021 Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above. Tunkeg had also found this weird earlier when Hapa mentioned it: On December 12 2012 17:35 Hapahauli wrote: Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours? He likes the martyr post, despite disagreeing with some of the reads Tunkeg has made, something into which he admits later on. Very weird: On December 12 2012 18:04 Hapahauli wrote: Well I'm interested in some of yours though. Particularly the ones on Djo and Vivax, since I'm drawing the opposite conclusions from some folks in the thread atm. And it gets even better. Hapa has a townie feel on a martyr post with two reads he disagrees with. Curiously enough, all that goes to shit later on, when scum Hapa decides Tunkeg is a suitable mislynch: On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote: Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. When I asked him about it, it led to: On December 13 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote: I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads." I'd like everyone to pause and think here about how ??!!!??!!? this is. Hapa justifies his town->scum transition on Tunkeg because of how certain Tunkeg was in WBG. This does NOT depend on WBG's alignment. Yet, when WBG's alignment came to light, he used it to paint Tunkeg red. This is bullshit. If you need further proof as to why it is bullshit, refer to point 2.) of this post, where I discuss the follow-up on Palmar. Jay - another town read which conveniently went to shit. Hapa had multiple town posts on Jay which I don't feel is relevant to invoke. However, the turning point on which he decided Jay was actually scum was: On December 18 2012 07:38 Hapahauli wrote: interesting. I'll have to think about whether it's true or not. If no one counterclaims, I could get behind a Jay lynch. His tunnel on Djo felt really forced all through today. This feels totally off from someone with multiple references to how jay doesn't seem scummy (if necessary, I'll pull this up). It is also a convenient switch so as to not getting your scumbuddy lynched. He also later includes VE's WIFOM into why he thought jay was scummy, which I feel is extremely weak. Onwards. 2.) Lack of interest I mentioned earlier how I would not get into the merit of hapa being less influential and less present. Even with little time to post, there is still the ability to show interest in the game and finding scum, something which he has failed to do. The main example with him regarding this was his response to a certain post on Palmar. Remember the part I mentioned above regarding on how he would have liked for Tunkeg to be more uncertain on things? Well, Palmar made a certain post which said the exact opposite, and Hapa passively agreed: On December 13 2012 18:45 Hapahauli wrote: In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota" There is all kinds of wrong with this post. First of all, that was NOT his initial objection. As a matter of fact, the attitude Hapa mentions had always been there. On that same attitude, he gave a slight town read, which later turned into a scum-read because on how bugs flipped, not because he changed his mind. Secondly, Palmar said the exact opposite to what Hapa suggested. A townie hapa is inquisitive, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes to discuss this with Palmar. And yet, what Hapa does is simply shrug it off. Only when I noted it later, did he choose to go back on his thoughts: The "sense" is just Palmar's perspective on things that I really hadn't thought about too much. That being said, sleeping on things, I pretty heavily disagree with Palmar. Scum can very easily take strong stances on things since they know what's up. It's not like they were original opinions either - most of it was just a re-hash of everything that's been said in the thread. This feels very little like town Hapa. A town hapa, on GSL, for example, heavily pounced on me due to little things like choice of words or the post I was quoting. Activity aside, I could tell he was interested in finding scum. This game, it simply doesn't. When Hapa said that I was a scum read out of elimination and didn't give him any reason to think I was town, I was like "oh, piss in a bucket, here he comes". Whatever happened? Nothing, I was left alone. This was a huge tell I shouldn't have ignored earlier on. 3.) VE's bus This was already mentioned earlier by some, but I'd still like to point out that this is mega-suspicious. Hapa had VE marked off as "idiot town" for pretty much a big part of day 2. Palmar comes in saying VE is likely scum, comes in saying Djo is likely scum. Djo comes off as townie still, yet VE suddenly turns scum? He explains it here: On December 17 2012 08:29 Hapahauli wrote: Leaning town on VE initially Asked him a question about something rather scummy in his filter Change my mind on VE when a) VE doesn't respond and b) Palmar (who knows his meta far more than I do) thinks he's "sure to be scum" Then I voted VE. Don't see what's wrong with that b) does not explain why the town read on Djo is still there. a) I did some looking into, and found something very interesting. The only questions I see Hapa asking VE, in his filter are these: On December 13 2012 18:29 Hapahauli wrote: 1) Why would it be bad play for a vig to counterclaim here? Closed setup or not, I really doubt there's more than 1 in a 16 man setup. 2) It doesn't matter who the guy is - the top scumread of the thread got shot on N1. How is that not completely normal? Plus Clarity's a new guy - it's not like he knows who Bugs is. Hell even I've never played in a game with Bugs. As for the debears thing, I've given it some thought. The way I see it, there are two possibilities: a) scum only shot at debears. I find this unlikely, given the risk of leaving a hypothetically town marv+Palmar alive b) scum vigi'd debears and shot at marv. This is what I'm thinking happened. Please correct me here if I'm wrong, but I don't find any other "questions" he could have asked VE. What happens after these questions, when VE still hasn't answered Hapa? Well, you guessed it: On December 14 2012 06:05 Hapahauli wrote: Meh, I'm not feelin a VE lynch right now. His thing with clarity reads more as a misguided tunnel than something malicious. Bluelightz on the other hand is ripe for some lynching. Lynch-bait or not, he's one of the few players in the game that hasn't given me any reason to think he's town. Tunkeg being the other, but I rather like that last longer post of his. He also later adds another reason in, that goes with his new "heuristic": On December 17 2012 08:36 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding VE, he hasn't given me any sufficient reason to think he's town. He's my top scumread at the moment. As for Bluelightz, I came away from his "demotivated" conversation much the same as you did. Whiney, but townie. Or at the very least, more townie than VE. Well shit, VE also hadn't given Hapa any reason to believe he was town earlier right? Whatever the hell happened that suddenly this became a tell? I'll tell you. The realization that he had to bus. So not a single one of his reasonings of the VE town->scum transition make the slightest of sense. They all smell like bullshit. Every. Single. One. Conclusion of Part I: Hapa == Scum.
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Part II Part two of this case will focus on association. I was hoping Hapa would reach more conclusions before making this, but I gotta wake up early in the morning tomorrow and really need to go. I see two strong association cases off of Hapa: marv and Djodref. On Djodref, I can't shake the feeling that we could have been right on him. He's been a scumread for most of this game, and Palmar's as well. Despite his good activity, there's been lots of inconsistent stuff on his filter that make little sense from a townie perspective. Him being scum with Hapa would explain the weird town read which came in day two. Remember that Hapa's first post in this thread was how Djo was the biggest scumread, but quickly that turned into a townread that stayed strong no matter what shards of scumminess came flying by, INCLUDING from Palmar, whom he took VE's read to be genuine, but not Djos. This is a feeling I've had for some part of this game, but Djo's insta-vote into hapa today felt a bit off. I figure that if he were scum he'd see what way the lynch was heading. This might be a bit WIFOMy, but the djo-hapa interaction is weird as balls. I feel much stronger about him being scum with marv though. Marv is a strong and capable player and I do not doubt that he would bus Adam in day one like that. The biggest tell I find though, is how marv pushed Hapahauli when VE claimed, and backed away from it quickly to vote VE, and then, on day 4, didn't push Hapa day 4 at all. It's like his "scumread" on Hapa vanished. This is a similar play to that in Liquid City, where marv sent a bus on Node crashing down, on which he didn't expect Node to get lynched. Hapa's latest "push" on marv is an attestment to this. He begins going strong against marv, but just bluntly states that marv is 99% town to him. Since many players here share the view that marv is looking townie this game, I view this as an attempt to connect with the rest of the town on some ground, which is flimsy as shit. Of course marv claimed vet day 5. How else would he justify being alive? Why does this come off as an "unlikely play for scum to do" in plain mylo? And look now at how quick marv was to bus hapa today to save himself the town cred for tomorrow. I'm more convinced on hapa-marv than hapa-Djo, but I want everyone to pay attention to the details I've tried to lay out as best I could in my guide. Kill Hapa. Kill marv. It should be fairly obvious. And then.... GG | ||
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I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched. Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands). And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487 I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check. Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information. On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go. I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk. Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht. Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec | ||
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On December 23 2012 12:21 Hapahauli wrote: Oh man that case on me is a lot less impressive than it first looked. Like it's actually shockingly bad out of what I'd expect from a town Z-Bo. 1) Hapa's Town Reads (particularly the one on Tunkeg) Firstly, you say that I shouldn't have initially found Tunkeg town because I disagreed with some of his martyr reads. This is absurd. Whether or not a player is correct has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not. Secondly, you think my switch on Tunkeg is scummy because I "used" WBG's blue-flip. This is both faulty logic and a misrepresentation. I eventually switched to Tunkeg because he was too sure of himself THROUGHOUT his filter on MULTIPLE subjects: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=77#1536 Also, I did find Tunkeg being "too sure" on his WBG read as scummy. Several players in the game (when Tunkeg posted his "martyr" thing) thought WBG was scum. It's really easy for scum to go "oh this guy is 100% scum I'm sure of it." Scum are confident because they know their objectives, and I thought a townie would be less-confident about such a read. I was clearly wrong. You changed your views on tunkeg from leaning town to "not looking too hot" because WBG flipped blue. There is no misinterpretation in your words here: On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote: Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. The fact of the matter is, that when I asked you to justify it, you answered with: the problem is his certainty. Note, however, that Tunkeg already was certain on WBG being scum before WBG's flip. You didn't use that heuristic to attack Tunkeg at any point in time before WBG's flip. That post you quoted is just you pushing him and consolidating him for other reasons than what was your original reaction to WBG flipping. If your whole deal is with certainty, how does WBG's flip change anything? You realized this later, but note that when I prodded you, you STILL showed this thought process: On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote: Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me. So, it's not a misrepresentation. You supposedly "overlooked" his certainty earlier in favor of you agreeing with him on Bugs. Then, only when you felt that you could mislynch him, you brought it up. 2) Lack of Interest Funny enough, this isn't at all about my lack of interest, but more about my Tunkeg read. But anyway, my "lack of interest" was on display in Chrono Trigger Mafia as well. I was town. I was super-engaged in Mario Mini. I was scum. I've been in much of a different mood this game. I've been far less "involved" due to me being busy. That certainly reflects in my gameplay, but it's not allignment indicative. Tunkeg thing is the biggest example I have. I also cited the difference in which you pursue your reads in GSL and in here, with regards to me.. I've been less involved in games so I know what you mean but posts such as these, for instance: On December 12 2012 17:35 Hapahauli wrote: Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours? Seems like you trying to pass off as though you are invested. I mean, you are invested enough to spend the last few hours reading TUnkeg's filter to confirm a meta read, but not enough to push your reads? I dunno man... 3) My "Bus" of VE You are LYING Z-Boson This is my question to VE. You completely ignored it and quoted a different post. What gives? Well you see, that isn't a question, that is a statement. In your answer to marv, you said it was a question, and the one I quoted is the only question I found, and VE in fact didn't answer said question, so I thought it was what you were referring to. | ||
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On December 23 2012 12:28 Hapahauli wrote: Also, what happens when you look at Z-Boson's Tunkeg stances? Hilarity ensues: 1) Finds Tunkeg town for martyr post This is the only part I made a townread on him. I realized that the reasoning for me to think he was town was completely stupid. This was at a time where I thought bugs was scum as well. When bugs flipped, he'd only given away an obvious scumread, so my argument didn't really make much sense. Here's where I explain why my town read was whack, actually. If you agree with this explanation, great, stop cherrypicking. If not, let me know why, I'd really like to know. I'll have to reassess because I agreed with you on how too certain Tunkeg was. It's not like I'm pissing on you because you were trying to mislynch him, but rather because you changed your criteria to make it convenient for you, in a rather suspicious and non-townie way. Yea, I thought about how my town read on him was stupid, and reverted back to my case I made on day one, which I found, and still find, to be decent. 4) "Guys, I know it's right before the lynch, but I want to make sure that you know I have reasons for voting Tunkeg even though everyone already is voting him." I had already given my own reasons for voting him (my day 1 case). This is me being careful and trying to lynch correctly. Why would I make this post as scum?? So people don't go being angry at me for not justifying my vote, even though I'd already done that? Please | ||
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On December 23 2012 12:32 Hapahauli wrote: You're totes right about the 1h 15min thing. However it still stands that you went from "I'm down with a lynch" to "ehhhh I want to park my vote on jay" to "fuck that! Lynch VE that fucker!"... all when it was convenient for you to do so. You didn't pursue your read on Vivax despite explicitly calling him scum, in favor of "being down with a VE lynch" Then, when VE claimed, you were in super-doubt-mode and wanted to leave a vote on Jay. Then when people didn't move their vote from VE, "LOL HE'S SCUM I'm sure!" It's not a consistent attitude, and you fail-bussed each other. I had to leave and needed to place my vote. I said I wanted to place my vote on Jay, and then decided to actually read into VE's filter (note the time difference between the post I mention Jay and the one I consolidate on VE) and decided to go through and lynch him. Also, I didn't say this at the time, and this was a very storng part of my decision, but I thought vivax was cop because of how strongly he opposed the lynch, when earlier in the same day he had been calling VE town (I also made a small reference to this somewhere in there). ANYWAYS. Answering your latest posts. | ||
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On December 23 2012 12:55 Hapahauli wrote: What are your opinions on my assessment of Marv? I don't agree with how risky it is to claim veteran. It's a perfectly reasonable maneuver for him to justify why he's alive in mylo, if he is scum. I agree with how much more invested he is in this game in comparison to GSL, but I'm not going with a 99%. | ||
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I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured? | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:31 Hapahauli wrote: I mean we could say that the scumteam had really poor communication and that Djo was largely acting on his own, but even then, given that two in the group of us are scum and two of us have lasted until the endgame, communication can't have been that much of an issue, even in the early game. Well Adam was rather quiet, VE was rather quiet. Djo does seem much more interested here, but he's a capable player imo. However, there's a ton of stuff that's weird in his filter, so I really hesitate to pass it off so easily to activity. | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:42 Hapahauli wrote: For two reasons: 1) His actions aren't coherent with a mafia "strategy." VE bussed Adam. Scum should have known that Adam was going down. Yet Djo goes and tries to last-minute voteswitch on both tunkeg and jay at the lynch deadline... I can't see the scum-mentality in that, especially since the mafia QT should have been on "BUS ALERT!" 2) His activity when pressured was absurd. He was bombing cases left and right. Such an insane amount of effort in scumhunting that I can only attribute to a townie. 1) Well, Djo has been around enough to work out how you and marv think. I tried the same thing in CT, where I went with sandro all the way trying to convince people, etc. then didn't really want to bus him in favor of another scum (Toad) 2) An engaged scum djo is perfectly capable of this, imo | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:44 Hapahauli wrote: Muze with me on Djo a bit. You were playing with him in Mario Mini - you see any similarities/differences to that? He seems to me like 10000x more concerned with scumhunting in this game. Well he spent a fuckton of time set up speculating, and was fairly active with a 14-page filter. But yea, he seemed to give much less a shit in that game than in this one if he were scum. Either he adapted his gameplay, or he really is townie | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:55 Hapahauli wrote: I feel that the game mechanics in CT made your "strategy" (bussing toad over sandro) quite normal in retrospect (Toad's abilities in particular). CT seemed more of a special case. I can't find a similar strategy here, especially when the deviation from the normal strategy would make you look TERRRIBLE. Well, for scum Djo, all three of his buddies were already bussing. Maybe he felt his bus wouldn't be able to feel natural during his previous posts (which pretty much defended adam from debears), and decided to stick with his momentum. I'm not confident that's enough to warrant a complete town read. | ||
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Djo is now a town read for him, despite him wanting to kill Djo badly earlier on. VE also manifested a town to scum transition in his filter. And he seriously thinks we are a scum team. I really can't make any of his posts. | ||
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On December 12 2012 08:12 Djodref wrote: I'll vote Adam if I need to but I really don't think it's the best lynch for today... I've seen successful late (like 5 min before deadline) counter bangwagon in Mario Mini Mafia so it's never too late So for him it's either look suspicious for an useless bus vote, or look like dumb townie for trying to sway the vote to a mislynch, if he's scum. | ||
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On December 23 2012 14:14 Hapahauli wrote: I mean on the one hand, Grush seems different personality wise from his scumgames. Unfortunately I can say this about everyone here. So beyond personality, his play individually seems scummy. There was that post I pointed out earlier, which was borderline prophetic of people's alignments. Certainly a far cry from his gameplay in LVII. Regarding his vote on Djo, he's super-convinced that he wants to vote Djo: Then in 10 minutes, decides that Djo is town: He seems to reverse himself pretty quickly, and all of a sudden comes up with good reasons why Djo is town: There's more in there as well. Like he's really wants to lynch Djo until I coax him into voting VE, with which he immediately complies. He does something similar with the Tunkeg lynch, where he votes Tunkeg because "the bandwagon can't be stopped" I know it's a case on GRush and whatnot, but it does seem like he's scum. He does seem to be behaving a lot like a "cooperative mafia" with his play. Oh, you coaxed him into voting VE? I hadn't seen that earlier. I thought he had decided that on his own | ||
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On December 22 2012 04:30 grush57 wrote: Sigh, I don't know who to lynch now. But shows opinion when faced with a potential mislynch: On December 21 2012 05:35 grush57 wrote: Because Palmar said so. But him getting away with zero effort because of his meta and how he always gets lynched is making me mad. Which is also kinda ironic considering the effort grush puts in. Concerning you, I still think you are scum  . I went very carefully through your filter today, I felt very solid on my read of you. If you really are town, though, keep doing what you are doing. Tbh, I don't see why you as scum would insist on placing Djo as town and limiting your own bullshitting with me pressuring the opposite. Buuuut, you are a capable player so I'm skeptical. I will consider you being town and see how much marv+grush makes more sense to me than marv and you. Now, I'm heading over to california tomorrow, and I'm not sure I'll have an internet connection when I get there. So tomorrow morning I will likely place my vote after sleeping on it, but its likely I'll have a connection and will be able to change it. Gnight dude | ||
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Grush has a meta thats easy to hide your intentions in, im not about to give him a town read based on your meta read on him. Plane is leaving but as it stands, hapa came looking much better after my interaction with him, and i really dont think they djo hapa are a scum team. Its a big risk to take to give a town read on a scumbuddy when being pressured. ##vote marv Ill post more and update my vote when i land, i rlly need to shut cell off. | ||
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Look how right i was in liquid city or lvii when voting. Look in xxviii, a game u were in, on how i got everything wrong up until the very last minute. Dont place me on a pedestal. You also tunneled the same ppl i did. Just look at my play and think back on y u thought me town earlier and stop being dumb please | ||
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I tried to help u hapa i really did I hope u still like me | ||
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You had us very worried when you syarted going all active and shit. I felt the need to go make that time-cosuming play that was fairly risky because you were strating to figure shit out. Town also didnt help not seeing how obvious it was we werent a scumteam Grats to marv for his insane amount of effort and guidance in this game This was not an easy win at all | ||
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I was really careful and trying very hard this game, so i wasnt really inconsistent as usual on stuff. There are small associations with adam and ve, but i dont think they are that damning. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I didnt fly under the radar (at least not for the later days), its just you guys didnt pressure me at all. Thrawn just made a case that had some decent arguments but were buried in many exagerations and misinterpretationss that made it easy to defend. Djo you kept making non-arguments such as me speculating and me being wrong (even when i was pushong someone you thought to be scum). You also found me scum with hpa, which was very far-fetched, you just had too much confirmation bias to listen to anything that we were saying | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Just as a forewarning, my next scum play will be quite different from this one, thanks for the heads up | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On December 24 2012 14:23 jaybrundage wrote: Huh i was right with my gut read about z-boson he just felt useless lol. GJ scum team. Ill be honest tho i thought Djo might flip scum Gut reads are useless if you can't convince anyone of them. The obs QT has a lot of discussion regarding this topic, I found it very interesting. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I also remember I said ill have to look at someone else and didn't do that, so that's a really small tell. Also, if you reallly thought I didn't give VE attention because he was my scummate, why the hell would I give scummate hapa so much attention, if this were any decent tell? Anyways, it's not. Me and marv interacted a fair bunch this game. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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