shit at the start of that post I was like "I'm gonna chew out shiaopi for being shitty and scummy but yeah I'm not voting him today" but by the end I decided I was voting him because he is scum. I really got into it there! the point is, I'm not the carp-flinger you take me fore, shiaopi! Your deceit has not gone unnoticed!
Look at this mans' filter for the past like 96 hours and tell me he cares about htis game. TELL ME HE CARES ID ARE YOU
On December 07 2012 20:23 Blazinghand wrote: I'm gonna be real here I didn't exactly have a townread on ShiaoPi but now it's at the point where like if we weren't already lynching austin I'd be down to lynch ShiaoPi. what kind of assinine play is this? ShiaoPi must mistake us for carp-flinging tilegrouting bookshelfmongers if he thinks anyone finds his play today even remotely acceptable.
Damn, at least Keirathi had the balls to stand up for what he believed in when he was wrong. That (besides his flipped mason partner) is why he's town. But ShiaoPi, we are not as dumb as you think we are. We are not bookshelfmongers. We do not grout tiles. We fling no carp. I thought "first austinmcc, then shiaopi" for your lies and your treachery and your duplicity. BUT THIS IS NOT ENOUGH
Where is the defense of the guy who you think is "town"? Where is the town play that anyone in your position would make as town? nothin about your play is townlike, nothing at all.
You haven't been putting effort in for a long time now. You've barely engaged the thread since the middle of N1 and you're clearly not interested in hunting scum. Fuck austin and fuck sandro. You're the scum. And you're going to die like the scum you are. ##unvote austinmcc ##vote shiaopi
Blazinghand, I agree that ShiaoPi is most likely Mafia. But it's stupid to lynch him in this situation. Here are some reasons:
A) If he is Mafia, austinmcc is most certainly Mafia as well. They're just connected in so many scummy ways. B) austinmcc flipping Mafia would basically confirm Sandroba as town (unless this is some CRAZY tactic play, but that's not really realistic at all). C) austinmcc would be far more dangerous alive than ShiaoPi in my opinion (deciding NK's, power role usage, convincing players not to lynch him, etc). D) austinmcc's filter is a huge pile of information to look at if he flips red, but ShiaoPi's filter isn't that useful to look at.
Also, just looking at it mathematically, austinmcc's chance of being Mafia is (at least) 50%. ShiaoPi, while definitely scummy, has a much lower chance of flipping Mafia if we look at the odds. And it's just all around stupid to let a fake claimer live.
Really Xatalos? Cause heres how I see it: 3 scum remain, 6 unconfirmed townies. Even lynching randomly, we'd have a 50% chance of hitting scum. But lynching ShiaoPi who is so scummmy he gathers on the tops of still ponds, we have over a 50% chance (random lynch). The thing is also that usinmcc doesn't have 50% scum chance its much hierh because he is scum
On December 07 2012 20:58 Blazinghand wrote: man no i get the point though, one of austinmcc/sandro si scum, and sandro is townie and austin is scummy so we should lynch austin by that logic
but damn man
look at shiaopi. just look at that sucker. tell me that dude is town! tell me! Tell me in a way that i'd believe even for a second!
Haha, I can't do that, because I don't believe it myself. The point is that they're very likely both Mafia (probably with one Mafia remaining after them). But lynching austinmcc would clear Sandroba and give us much more information than lynching ShiaoPi. And I have bad experiences about not lynching one of the two players in a redcheck situation... One game I was lynched even after the DT had a redcheck on a real Mafia. It was even LYLO.... So we lost the game when it could have been easily won just by deciding to lynch one of the two.
hm ok thats a good point, if we want to lynch both austin and sandro and theres a chance, however small, that we hit the wrong one first, we shoudl do it before lylo ##unvote shiaopi ##vote austinmcc
Sandroba/Dandel Ion: I am starting this with another look at Dandel Ion, remember the one sandroba replaced? No, well that's the thing, he never took any position and was replaced out before he voted, maybe it is due to time constraints, but keep it in the back of your mind that Dandel Ion was more than happy to do nothing d1.
Now onto the n1 and beyond when sand takes over n1: Sandroba is active a lot and does some prodding around the relevant issues in thread at that time, So far he already looks miles better than dandel ever did. not much to take notice of here. At the end of the night he gives out a couple of reads:
On December 03 2012 07:40 sandroba wrote: I have to go out quickly so I'ma post my thoughts early: Sandroba's Town List for dummies (TM): WBG - marvelosity = both too emo ragers for it to be fake. I can't see the genuine asshole behavior being faked here and there is no scum motivation for it. I would seriously like to lynch marv for being an assface jerk, but unfortunately I can't convince myself he is scum. Xatalos - LOL this guy is so townie I don't understand how you baddies manage to bandwagon him day 1. 'Nuff said. DYH - I really thought this guy was scum for his retard case on xatalos before I read the last 30 pages. However that last minute claim looks really good so I'm putting him as town. Hopefully he can get confirmed by shooting into scummers tonight. Assuming scum have 1 rb (can't really imagine them having 2) either him or marv should get their actions through.
Scummers : Zealos, BlazingHand are scum. I don't think I need to explain why for BH. Read Zealos oportunistic jump on xata wagon. That post has scum written all over it.
People that I'm unsure but leaning scum: VE - who you might ask? Yes this dude is playing in this game. I bet you didn't know either. Kei/Ace - Meh ace is a hard one for me to figure out. I thought he was scum when I was obsing because of his "Oh this is interesting" comment, but I'm liking kei a bit more. This BH case seems very convinient though.
First thing in the morning, he votes for me, "convinced" by bugs trash "case".
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Look at this closely! First he agrees with bugs nitpicking from the filter of VE, where I get mentioned, then he says he "assumes" BH as town in this scenario, when he was his biggest scumread earlier. As main thing justifiying this change of opinion is VE's filter yet again, but this time he is suddenly wary of the things inside VE's filter. I do get softdefended by VE but VE being "ok" with lynching BH is basically the same thing if you take it at facevalue. Now the intersting thing is that he is willing to lynch a less-risky target instead of his earlier top-scumread....
For most of the day he is doing nothing, except some more double-standards regarding VE's filter:
On December 04 2012 02:57 sandroba wrote: It is indeed possible that VE threw zealos name out there and said he would agree to bus him next day out of the blue. It's just not likely.
It is basically WIFOM but here WIFOM is not enough to convince him to make a go on Zealos, while in my case it was enough. Why? Then he cruises by until the bugs train gains momentum. He posts this:
On December 04 2012 23:08 sandroba wrote: LISTEN PEOPLE! I've reread WBG's filter a couple times by now. Consider please that yesterday lynch was between 2 townies and scum shot marvelosity. WBG's behavior makes no sense as mafia. Even if you can twist it somehow like you guys have been trying to do, the tone and emotional content of his posts are very genuine. I've played with mafia bugs before, and while he is hard to read, he is either non confrontational or trollish, he doesn't pick fights with people for absolutely no gain like he has been doing this game. Now let's look at ShiaoPi. This dude is desperetely trying to survive. Compare his posts d1, when he wasn't in any danger, to his posts today. He is trying really hard to justify any bandwagons he can hop on to save his own ass. Also look at how this retard wagon on bugs gained traction out of the blue. Even more reason to suspect we were right about ShiaoPi. Use your heads please.
He is defending his hardtownread, but what is the main argument tone/emotional content are genuine? seriously? He also engages with debears case:
On December 04 2012 23:47 sandroba wrote: Adressing points on debears case: 1) WBG defended DP, but didn't care DYH was lynched. I would have mislynched DYH 100% D1 if not for his vigi claim. As I've stated before I thought his case on xatalos was utter bullshit and was very convinced of this guy being scum before replacing in. It doesn't surprise me that WBG didn't care if DYH got lynched instead of DP, which he had a town read on. Now as to why he didn't push DYH instead of going for marv I don't know, but I have to admit that marv's claim was pretty sketchy and I had to think real hard before determining he was likely town. "I am DT" in the middle of D1 with slight pressure on him, followed by "I might not be sane" after people start unvoting him looks suspicious as fuck, specially when you are biased because the dude is being a dick in the thread. For mafia it would make way more sense and be way easier to simply ignore marv and try to get into one of the main alternate wagons. Since you say WBG had no qualms lynching DYH why would he not as mafia simply jump on his wagon instead of trying to get marv lynched. Surely you can imagine the backlash he would suffer once marv flipped DT.
2)Vote on marv I adressed this on the block above.
3)Bunch of random facts stating facts and saying that they are scummy does not make it so. 'nuff said
4)bunch of random facts see above
5) Meta comparison to mad men I thought he was mafia on mad men. I then learned he wasn't. Your comparison is good for proving he is likely town this game though. You see, wbg and erandor had a much closer relationship than you-him. WBG expected erandor to identify he is town and got pissed off and raged in the thread. Simillar to how he expects better of marv and raged in the thread/assumed he was scum for playing like shit D1. The fact that he didn't adress your points can be explained by how he doesn't know your play/doesn't expect much from you and sees no needs to adress a case that has no traction. I doesn't mean he is auto mafia for ignoring you, sorry.
6) claims meta is the same even if you say it isn't yes. so?
Except of the first paragraph he is actually not answering the case at all, he is just talking it down, trying to shut it down with not much real arguments. It would basically be okayish to do that, but in regards of bugs flip and austins check I think he was just trying to get some cred for defending bugs.
Now in further pushing me:
On December 04 2012 23:51 sandroba wrote: @shiaopi I'm voting for you because i think you are scum. Doesn't matter if you say "but, but, but, i didn't do anything, it's ve's fault" or w/e. To find scum you need to define a pattern in which you believe they will behave given a specific situation. Unfortunatelly for you, you fit the pattern I arbitrarily defined that scum would behave day 1 in a 2 townie wagon and then day 2 after being acused. Ve's comment is just icing on the cake and serves to strenghen my belief and make everything fit toghether even more nicely.
So I am scum, because he decided so, nice stuff, nice stuff. Fast forward to n2:
On December 05 2012 22:19 sandroba wrote: Xatalos is most likely not scum. The random Shiaopi isn't scum makes no sense. If you look carefully of how the day went the most likely scenario is that he is indeed scum, given the counter wagons and the hopping out of his wagon as soon as it became clear that there was a possibility of him not being lynched. I don't agree that debears looks townie. I would put him toghether with lazer and austin as the possible remaining scum (besisdes shiaopi). These mason claims I'm going to look into some more. 4 masons does seem like a lot, but I never before have seen scum claiming it.
He is now stating the scumteam as me and some out of lazer/austin/debears. Little to no reasoning at all (besides some stupid stuff about me), looking in his filter we have exactly this mentioning of Lazer, while I can agree with that read since he is fucking useless in gaga-tunneling it is interesting to see debears and austin on that list as well. Sure it can be kind of through negative deduction with him having town reads on Xata and all the masons, but besides this post there is little to no interaction between him and these two. How did he arrive on these reads and why?
Now in d3, he just votes austin, not a big deal as scum or town would do that in face of a redcheck, but wtf starting speculation on a possible traitor role? Sure it is a closed setup and the game is called paranoia, but why bring it up in the first place? Occams Razor says he is either a watcher with a red check or a stupid scum for doing a fakeclaim to trade 1for1. I am inclined to believe it is a watcher.
On November 30 2012 09:49 DoYouHas wrote: @Darth, what I remember about Xata is that he is not a bad player. With 3-4 games under his belt he may be one of the newest in the game, but I would not call him a complete noob.
What I see are multiple posts that seem uncomfortable and uncertain. His attempt at making a joke out of BH's vote just seems awkward. Making light of confrontation is classic avoidance behavior, something that I think is more likely to be true because of the awkward phrasing.
You could very well be right that this is just noob Xata being genuinely uncomfortable with the start of the game. But you are foolish if you dismiss such classically scummy behavior just because there is a different explanation.
PS: I don't think you are going to like me very much given your advice to Xata. I spend quite a bit of time on my posts regardless of alignment.
All I ask is that you take his newness into account. Marv is right though It probably was unnecessary to request this given the player list. However, I don't think it caused any harm either.
post how you want. I just read his post as awkward and attributed it to him attempting to over polish his posts. His case on your read that way as well.
Can't say I loved his case either.
DP plz stop being silly with the noobness argument.
Any given sunday brah
Your ridiculous. The only thing silly about it was that potentially people should have known what i was requesting already.
This comment was completely unneeded, brought up something which was over, and just repeated what marv and others said about it.
##vote: debears
Cool. You want to read my other posts which are about other stuff?
Or do you really think I could be scum?
I read your other posts. mostly meh. That post was scummy though.
Care to tell me why they are mostly meh?
specifically on the one about the marv town read, the dandel vote, and the doyouhas vote
I find it odd that you pick out one of my least important posts while ignoring my more important ones and find me scummy from it
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
##Vote Dandel
@Dandel
So you're going to discredit yourself amongst these players by calling yourself a noob? That doesn't make much sense from a town perspective.
Also, were you being sarcastic earlier in how serious you were saying we shouldn't joke and stuff?
Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
On November 30 2012 08:25 DoYouHas wrote: Hi everyone, looking forward to an active game. It's nice to recognize many of the names on the playerlist even though I haven't played in a while.
I'm happy to see Marv/BH/VE in here. With those 3 there is no reason the thread should be inactive.
I'm perhaps overly cautious of Ace. His reputation obviously precedes him. Never having played with him paired with the knowledge that he can be a devastatingly effective scum leader makes me a little paranoid.
As always, I am in favor of lurker lynching on day1 unless a better candidate shows up (which it inevitably will).
DoYouHas
Why are you trying to paint such a picture on ace? Sure, he is a forefather of TL Mafia, and I'm sure all of us are aware of his ability. But why try to focus on his scumplay so much over his town play?
As I recall, he is also a pretty darn good town player. Stating how you are overly cautious of him (implying somewhat to others that they should also be) just because he's a good mafia player doesn't seem like something a townie would do
Because it does the dual job of accurately explaining my feelings towards him to start the game and hopefully stirring up a little fear towards him so that people don't sheep him quite as readily. If he ends up taking a town leader role, I want him to earn it instead of being ushered into it on his reputation.
That doesn't make any sense. I'm not going to sheep someone cuz of their reputation. I'm going to sheep if their case
1) makes sense 2) is good 3) I believe they are town
If he takes a town leader position, it'll be because of those things. Not because of his reputation
##Unvote ##Vote DoYouHas
Then you quickly drop a new vote on DoYouHas. Because...you don't think that you would sheep Ace because he's Ace. DoYouHas does NOT want people sheeping Ace based on reputation. You want the same, but vote him because he said that?
What exactly is your reasoning for voting DoYouHas?
On November 30 2012 11:01 austinmcc wrote: Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
Simply untrue. Scum have plenty to gain by being ignored. Just take a gander in Ver's guide for an example (Misder possibly)
He's not asking to be ignored. This is the chain in which Dandel Ion speaks:
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
He says he's a noob. Discrediting was DoYouHas's word I believe, but I'd argue that
(1) There can be benefits to scum in lurking (2) What Dandel Ion did (making a post calling himself a noob) =/= lurking
To some extent, calling yourself a noob implies that you're going to sit back and let other people do the heavy lifting. But I don't really attribute any kind of purpose to Dandel Ion's post like that, and I don't think it makes sense for scum to point out newness, because iirc every newbie guide says apologies/hiding behind newness = scum.
tl;dr I think there's a difference between lurking/being passive/playing to be ignored and Dandel Ion's post.
Just 2 of many examples of him prodding/analyzing all day long. He is also sharing reads repeatedly e.g.: + Show Spoiler +
On December 02 2012 06:15 Lazermonkey wrote: Austin! You've been posting suspicion on several players now but are yet to cast a vote. Who is, in your opinion, top second etc scum read?
I think Zealos is my top scumread. ##vote: Zealos
Beyond that, I'm worried about...hmmmm. Both you and DP concern me, I don't think both of you are scum, but I can't figure out which is which. Right now, I'm inclined to believe you're scummier between the two. DP had some good points on you, and I was going back and forth with you yesterday because I haven't played with you (I don't think), so I wanted to try and get a better sense of where you were. I came away feeling alright from that exchange, but reading over how some other people viewed it, I think a lot of my good feelings came from the fact that you actually interacted and kept things moving somewhat, and I wasn't paying enough attention to your actual comments on folks.
However, you're not my #2 scumread. That's actually ShiaoPi right now. I don't like typing that out, it seems like someone else should be there, but it's him.
I don't care about reading BH right now, because I think he's useful for town regardless of his alignment. I'm not bothering to really try and solidify reads on some people that aren't relevant to the D1 lynch - Ace, Zentor, DYH. Nobody in the remaining players sticks out to me like Zealos, ShiaoPi, and you do.
Read those posts I quoted, I would assume it gets rather obvious that his d1-play was incredibly pro-town.
Now the main problem of you seems to be that he did not react at all to the redcheck he got. Now without knowing the fact that he has a redcheck, go through his day2 posts, they are more of the same, contstructive posts, pushing discussion, asking questions, sharing reads, in short townplay.
On December 06 2012 08:00 austinmcc wrote: Assorted stuff. I don't think I will die tonight, but there's a small chance, and may as well get this into the open.
I am a watcher. N1 I watched marvellosity. Sandroba, and only Sandroba, visited him. Therefore, Sandroba killed marvellosity. Therefore, Sandroba.
If you look at my D2, I ask Sandroba a couple questions, some concerning his reads on ShiaoPi and WBG, especially his defense of WBG. This is one reason I ended up locked in on WBG and not wanting to lynch ShiaoPi, and one reason I've been weird about ShiaoPi. Sandroba dropped a vote and ShiaoPi early and was gone for much of the rest of the day, and defended WBG in this odd manner. In my mind, knowing that Sandroba was scum, it made the choice between the two easy - lynch WBG.
I didn't claim because I actually thought WBG was scum, that there was no need to claim to ensure a scum lynch. Now, we've got a bit of uncertainty, so I can do so. We can lynch Sandroba to partially-confirm me if you guys would like, you can lynch me to confirm (not recommended).
Tonight I am watching keirathi or BH. Still flipping back and forth between the two (5 minutes until end). Scum, non-sandroba scum, pretty please shoot the guy I'm watching.
Right now I'm worried about the power roles in town. Confirmed cop, confirmed 1 mason pair of at least one townie, I'm confirmed watcher to me. That leaves a vigi...maybe? And maybe other masons.
For a game in which scum had one KP N1 allegedly. Not buying it. Either DYH is scum or SK or scum has large numbers low KP, something. Otherwise, I've kind of been a bum as I am wont to be when blue, relying on role too much to play the game and not analysis, and also trying to wrap my head around CT mafia.
Now that this is in the open, I can go back to playing normally. Slash what an awful end of night/claim post.
Why claim at night if you are scum? YOu could easily just do so at day, since you will not get shot anyway. straightforwardclaim in which he also shares some of his reasons for claiming now, and why he was not on the fence against sandroba.
I can understand him and therefore I chose to believe his claim. Now look further into the day, even when pressured from so many sides he continues to scumhunt: + Show Spoiler +
On December 06 2012 08:43 austinmcc wrote: Although you being scum makes the interactions between you/ShiaoPi and sandroba/ShiaoPi all the weirder. Are you BOTH bussing him? I guess then you bus him, use that post to say it implicates me, then get me lynched while trying to get a little cred for lynching ShiaoPi?
Curious. All I know for sure right now, is that Sandroba is scum. If you think I'm so scummy, why is Sandroba townie? I notice in that post you say "you're leaning town" on Sandroba, but you don't give any further reasoning. See posts like these:
On December 02 2012 01:14 Xatalos wrote: What I'm most concerned about are these players: VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, Dandel Ion. They all have been pretty passive background characters who are not lurking/trolling/playing bad, but not really doing anything either. I think there's a high chance for 1-2 of them being Mafia.
[Stuff on VE]
Dandel Ion hasn't put any real effort into his posts yet. He's just made some fluff one-liners and semi-useful "advice" like these:
On November 30 2012 23:10 Dandel Ion wrote: I mean, I agree that Lazermonkey is being overeager with calling you out like that, but Xatalos already answered you. What information do you expect to gain by asking the same thing again?
On December 01 2012 14:53 Dandel Ion wrote: It's a themed game. Please tell me you're not gonna start a setup speculation.
Just quickly skimmed the thread, do ya still want me to explain how, when and how well I read guides, or did you realize that it was a silly question in the first place yet?
Dandel Ion doesn't just seem to care about Mafia hunting, even though he has posted a decent amount and with semi-useful content as well. I'd need to see some real improvement in his posting to make my suspicions fade. Sharing some reads or anything beneficial to finding Mafia would be a good start.
On December 02 2012 01:25 ShiaoPi wrote: So who do you want to lynch Xata? Which of the three is scummiest to you?
VisceraEyes at the moment. DoYouHas and Dandel Ion haven't made any actual effort to contribute, but they haven't done anything outright scummy either. I'm most suspicious of VE's opportunistic vote for debears and his lack of interest to do pretty much anything useful after that.
On December 02 2012 05:01 Xatalos wrote: If any of VE/DYH/Dandel can't be lynched tonight, at least it's a perfect opportunity to make some pressure. I'll change my target from VE if needed before the deadline.
3 posts, VE and Dandel Ion so scummy. Let's lynch em. Let's lynch em.
N1/D2 - Dandel Ion now Sandroba, Sandroba suddenly townie for no real reason
On December 03 2012 19:54 Xatalos wrote: Of my other original suspects VE was obviously Mafia and DYH is now confirmed town, and Dandel Ion was replaced by sandroba (who feels townish so far) so I'm not willing to lynch other players at this moment.
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Hmm. Alright, I can agree with lynching ShiaoPi today. It also helps that I have a town read on both you and WBG. And ShiaoPi hasn't been lurking quite as heavily as Zealos, but he hasn't done anything either.
##Unvote ##Vote ShiaoPi
Although I'm wondering where Zealos has disappeared. And Lazermonkey. What we need now is more posts by several players who haven't done anything for a while (or even all game).
On December 04 2012 04:36 Xatalos wrote: I'm willing to give Dandel/Sandroba a pass though, since Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been very helpful with his posts.
On December 06 2012 06:16 Xatalos wrote: Realistically DYH, Keirathi, BH and MrZentor are out of the picture. I'm also leaning town on debears, sandroba, austinmcc and Lazermonkey.
Would you care to explain why Sandroba is townie? Would you care to explain why DI was one of your top scum suspects D1, but D2 it's "Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been helpful with his posts" so they get a pass? It's curious to me that one of your top 3 scumreads became a guy you think is townie but you never actually said why.
On December 07 2012 05:15 austinmcc wrote: Lazer, if you're still around, let's have a chat. I wanted to look you over and was, but now you're here. Hooray!
You, along with all other not-mes, find my actions ridiculous and don't believe my claim. Okay. So then, about my play:
(1) You think my play is less optimal as town than as scum. Go into that, why? You think I didn't play out D2 properly if I had a red check. But that applies equally to not playing out my D2 properly if I was going to do this as scum. Especially given that I can easily make up other things as scum. Why is one less optimal than the other?
(2) Have you looked at the past games I listed? Do they matter to you? Should they? As to you, I see a mix of posts in your filter. Mostly short ones. Some longer ones when you respond, make a case on ShiaoPi, actually get involved. But apart from throwing in some general musings on WBG/ShiaoPi and masons, and your case on ShiaoPi, I don't get the feeling there's much there. DYH was worried about you yesterday, and now he's a bit deceased.
So, some questions. At the end of each night, you've given two massive posts of reads. Why? Why not give them throughout the night? Why are most of your reads only ever popping up this late? Moreover, your reads on Sandroba haven't exactly been townie...
On December 06 2012 07:59 Lazermonkey wrote: Sandroba - I haven't done very much analysis on him either. However one of his posts earlier today caught my attention a bit.
On December 05 2012 21:28 sandroba wrote: wow. you guys. really. you make me sad.
Remember that Sandrobawas not present during the lynch. Not even close, He basically went afk about 12 hours before it. Also, he doesn't actually comment on anything regarding the lynch. Just that it's bad. Saying stuff like this risk to demoralize town. So why would someone as town say this? I really don't see the motivation for it. Not really lych worthy but still. I will look more closely into sandroba later.
You don't see a town motivation for a post Sandroba made. That's basically your only comment on Sandroba. Did you ever go look at Sandroba? If not...why not? Especially given he's a major player in today's lynch, why haven't you looked at him?
THough to most of you this post of him sums it up pretty much I guess:
On December 06 2012 08:46 austinmcc wrote: Breadcrumbs can be faked np. Same as with a breadcrumb, if you believe my claim, you may find that it explains some of my ShiaoPi v. WBG actions, and explains me trying to milk info from Sandroba. If you don't, you'll think I'm making it up, whether breadcrumb or explanation.
The "anything" that I can PROVE my role with would be nothing, unless we have a rolecop. However, Sandro will flip red whenever you lynch him. And I'll flip watcher if I die.
I believe him, you don't, I have a scumread on sandroba you dont. Also please keep in mind he was the only one who asked for mason logs. Those logs have basically confirmed BH/Zentor as town, there is no fucking way that those were faked. What would be to gain for austin to keep asking for the logs at end of the n2 and now during d3. Don't tell me it's this, because he obviously was not serious:
On December 07 2012 09:38 austinmcc wrote: Grrrrrr, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO NOT HAVE LOGS AND THEN WE CAN ALL YELL "GOTCHA!"
There is so much more town-motivated play behind austins post than behind sandroba. Thing is you are all blinded by the fact that he did not push a redcheck he had. Everything else is unimportant to you. So following your logic there is no way for me to convince you even with this wall of text. But please please consider what I wrote here. Austin is our watcher and it is incredibly silly to lynch him now....
I'm having some trouble figuring him out. On the other hand, when I read his filter, he is basically commenting on anything he notices and generally seems like a genuine carefree townie. But on the other hand, his posts about austinmcc today strike me as weird. At first he wanted to lynch Sandroba based on some speculation, then he hesitated some more, finally coming to the conclusion that he wanted to lynch austinmcc after all. This would fit with Mafia reluctantly bussing his teammate when left no other option.
On December 02 2012 09:03 debears wrote: Because its different in a way scum would not know
surely if your PM is different from a townflip, that wouldn't help?
i'm missing something here
Actually nvm. I think we should save it for lylo
It could be helpful.
EVERYONE WHO IS TOWN. LOOK AT YOUR ROLE PM COMPARED TO MARV'S AND THE ONE REVEALED TO BE DP'S
DON'T REVEAL IF IT'S DIFFERENT YET. WAIT UNTIL LYLO IF NEED BE THEN REVEAL
I just don't see Mafia posting something like this (or some other posts of his either). I'm starting to get a bit paranoid about the differently highlighted PM's myself, and I wonder if debears actually knows something about this that he's going to save until LYLO. Maybe some special role? Or special PM? Then again, why is debears so confident that he's going to live until LYLO anyway? Could that be a scumslip? Ugh... This setup is the weirdest one I've ever played, that's for sure.
On December 07 2012 21:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Let's get this on,
Sandroba/Dandel Ion: I am starting this with another look at Dandel Ion, remember the one sandroba replaced? No, well that's the thing, he never took any position and was replaced out before he voted, maybe it is due to time constraints, but keep it in the back of your mind that Dandel Ion was more than happy to do nothing d1.
Now onto the n1 and beyond when sand takes over n1: Sandroba is active a lot and does some prodding around the relevant issues in thread at that time, So far he already looks miles better than dandel ever did. not much to take notice of here. At the end of the night he gives out a couple of reads:
On December 03 2012 07:40 sandroba wrote: I have to go out quickly so I'ma post my thoughts early: Sandroba's Town List for dummies (TM): WBG - marvelosity = both too emo ragers for it to be fake. I can't see the genuine asshole behavior being faked here and there is no scum motivation for it. I would seriously like to lynch marv for being an assface jerk, but unfortunately I can't convince myself he is scum. Xatalos - LOL this guy is so townie I don't understand how you baddies manage to bandwagon him day 1. 'Nuff said. DYH - I really thought this guy was scum for his retard case on xatalos before I read the last 30 pages. However that last minute claim looks really good so I'm putting him as town. Hopefully he can get confirmed by shooting into scummers tonight. Assuming scum have 1 rb (can't really imagine them having 2) either him or marv should get their actions through.
Scummers : Zealos, BlazingHand are scum. I don't think I need to explain why for BH. Read Zealos oportunistic jump on xata wagon. That post has scum written all over it.
People that I'm unsure but leaning scum: VE - who you might ask? Yes this dude is playing in this game. I bet you didn't know either. Kei/Ace - Meh ace is a hard one for me to figure out. I thought he was scum when I was obsing because of his "Oh this is interesting" comment, but I'm liking kei a bit more. This BH case seems very convinient though.
First thing in the morning, he votes for me, "convinced" by bugs trash "case".
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Look at this closely! First he agrees with bugs nitpicking from the filter of VE, where I get mentioned, then he says he "assumes" BH as town in this scenario, when he was his biggest scumread earlier. As main thing justifiying this change of opinion is VE's filter yet again, but this time he is suddenly wary of the things inside VE's filter. I do get softdefended by VE but VE being "ok" with lynching BH is basically the same thing if you take it at facevalue. Now the intersting thing is that he is willing to lynch a less-risky target instead of his earlier top-scumread....
For most of the day he is doing nothing, except some more double-standards regarding VE's filter:
On December 04 2012 02:57 sandroba wrote: It is indeed possible that VE threw zealos name out there and said he would agree to bus him next day out of the blue. It's just not likely.
It is basically WIFOM but here WIFOM is not enough to convince him to make a go on Zealos, while in my case it was enough. Why? Then he cruises by until the bugs train gains momentum. He posts this:
On December 04 2012 23:08 sandroba wrote: LISTEN PEOPLE! I've reread WBG's filter a couple times by now. Consider please that yesterday lynch was between 2 townies and scum shot marvelosity. WBG's behavior makes no sense as mafia. Even if you can twist it somehow like you guys have been trying to do, the tone and emotional content of his posts are very genuine. I've played with mafia bugs before, and while he is hard to read, he is either non confrontational or trollish, he doesn't pick fights with people for absolutely no gain like he has been doing this game. Now let's look at ShiaoPi. This dude is desperetely trying to survive. Compare his posts d1, when he wasn't in any danger, to his posts today. He is trying really hard to justify any bandwagons he can hop on to save his own ass. Also look at how this retard wagon on bugs gained traction out of the blue. Even more reason to suspect we were right about ShiaoPi. Use your heads please.
He is defending his hardtownread, but what is the main argument tone/emotional content are genuine? seriously? He also engages with debears case:
On December 04 2012 23:47 sandroba wrote: Adressing points on debears case: 1) WBG defended DP, but didn't care DYH was lynched. I would have mislynched DYH 100% D1 if not for his vigi claim. As I've stated before I thought his case on xatalos was utter bullshit and was very convinced of this guy being scum before replacing in. It doesn't surprise me that WBG didn't care if DYH got lynched instead of DP, which he had a town read on. Now as to why he didn't push DYH instead of going for marv I don't know, but I have to admit that marv's claim was pretty sketchy and I had to think real hard before determining he was likely town. "I am DT" in the middle of D1 with slight pressure on him, followed by "I might not be sane" after people start unvoting him looks suspicious as fuck, specially when you are biased because the dude is being a dick in the thread. For mafia it would make way more sense and be way easier to simply ignore marv and try to get into one of the main alternate wagons. Since you say WBG had no qualms lynching DYH why would he not as mafia simply jump on his wagon instead of trying to get marv lynched. Surely you can imagine the backlash he would suffer once marv flipped DT.
2)Vote on marv I adressed this on the block above.
3)Bunch of random facts stating facts and saying that they are scummy does not make it so. 'nuff said
4)bunch of random facts see above
5) Meta comparison to mad men I thought he was mafia on mad men. I then learned he wasn't. Your comparison is good for proving he is likely town this game though. You see, wbg and erandor had a much closer relationship than you-him. WBG expected erandor to identify he is town and got pissed off and raged in the thread. Simillar to how he expects better of marv and raged in the thread/assumed he was scum for playing like shit D1. The fact that he didn't adress your points can be explained by how he doesn't know your play/doesn't expect much from you and sees no needs to adress a case that has no traction. I doesn't mean he is auto mafia for ignoring you, sorry.
6) claims meta is the same even if you say it isn't yes. so?
Except of the first paragraph he is actually not answering the case at all, he is just talking it down, trying to shut it down with not much real arguments. It would basically be okayish to do that, but in regards of bugs flip and austins check I think he was just trying to get some cred for defending bugs.
On December 04 2012 23:51 sandroba wrote: @shiaopi I'm voting for you because i think you are scum. Doesn't matter if you say "but, but, but, i didn't do anything, it's ve's fault" or w/e. To find scum you need to define a pattern in which you believe they will behave given a specific situation. Unfortunatelly for you, you fit the pattern I arbitrarily defined that scum would behave day 1 in a 2 townie wagon and then day 2 after being acused. Ve's comment is just icing on the cake and serves to strenghen my belief and make everything fit toghether even more nicely.
So I am scum, because he decided so, nice stuff, nice stuff. Fast forward to n2:
On December 05 2012 22:19 sandroba wrote: Xatalos is most likely not scum. The random Shiaopi isn't scum makes no sense. If you look carefully of how the day went the most likely scenario is that he is indeed scum, given the counter wagons and the hopping out of his wagon as soon as it became clear that there was a possibility of him not being lynched. I don't agree that debears looks townie. I would put him toghether with lazer and austin as the possible remaining scum (besisdes shiaopi). These mason claims I'm going to look into some more. 4 masons does seem like a lot, but I never before have seen scum claiming it.
He is now stating the scumteam as me and some out of lazer/austin/debears. Little to no reasoning at all (besides some stupid stuff about me), looking in his filter we have exactly this mentioning of Lazer, while I can agree with that read since he is fucking useless in gaga-tunneling it is interesting to see debears and austin on that list as well. Sure it can be kind of through negative deduction with him having town reads on Xata and all the masons, but besides this post there is little to no interaction between him and these two. How did he arrive on these reads and why?
Now in d3, he just votes austin, not a big deal as scum or town would do that in face of a redcheck, but wtf starting speculation on a possible traitor role? Sure it is a closed setup and the game is called paranoia, but why bring it up in the first place? Occams Razor says he is either a watcher with a red check or a stupid scum for doing a fakeclaim to trade 1for1. I am inclined to believe it is a watcher.
On November 30 2012 09:49 DoYouHas wrote: @Darth, what I remember about Xata is that he is not a bad player. With 3-4 games under his belt he may be one of the newest in the game, but I would not call him a complete noob.
What I see are multiple posts that seem uncomfortable and uncertain. His attempt at making a joke out of BH's vote just seems awkward. Making light of confrontation is classic avoidance behavior, something that I think is more likely to be true because of the awkward phrasing.
You could very well be right that this is just noob Xata being genuinely uncomfortable with the start of the game. But you are foolish if you dismiss such classically scummy behavior just because there is a different explanation.
PS: I don't think you are going to like me very much given your advice to Xata. I spend quite a bit of time on my posts regardless of alignment.
All I ask is that you take his newness into account. Marv is right though It probably was unnecessary to request this given the player list. However, I don't think it caused any harm either.
post how you want. I just read his post as awkward and attributed it to him attempting to over polish his posts. His case on your read that way as well.
Can't say I loved his case either.
DP plz stop being silly with the noobness argument.
Any given sunday brah
Your ridiculous. The only thing silly about it was that potentially people should have known what i was requesting already.
This comment was completely unneeded, brought up something which was over, and just repeated what marv and others said about it.
##vote: debears
Cool. You want to read my other posts which are about other stuff?
Or do you really think I could be scum?
I read your other posts. mostly meh. That post was scummy though.
Care to tell me why they are mostly meh?
specifically on the one about the marv town read, the dandel vote, and the doyouhas vote
I find it odd that you pick out one of my least important posts while ignoring my more important ones and find me scummy from it
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
##Vote Dandel
@Dandel
So you're going to discredit yourself amongst these players by calling yourself a noob? That doesn't make much sense from a town perspective.
Also, were you being sarcastic earlier in how serious you were saying we shouldn't joke and stuff?
Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
On November 30 2012 08:25 DoYouHas wrote: Hi everyone, looking forward to an active game. It's nice to recognize many of the names on the playerlist even though I haven't played in a while.
I'm happy to see Marv/BH/VE in here. With those 3 there is no reason the thread should be inactive.
I'm perhaps overly cautious of Ace. His reputation obviously precedes him. Never having played with him paired with the knowledge that he can be a devastatingly effective scum leader makes me a little paranoid.
As always, I am in favor of lurker lynching on day1 unless a better candidate shows up (which it inevitably will).
DoYouHas
Why are you trying to paint such a picture on ace? Sure, he is a forefather of TL Mafia, and I'm sure all of us are aware of his ability. But why try to focus on his scumplay so much over his town play?
As I recall, he is also a pretty darn good town player. Stating how you are overly cautious of him (implying somewhat to others that they should also be) just because he's a good mafia player doesn't seem like something a townie would do
Because it does the dual job of accurately explaining my feelings towards him to start the game and hopefully stirring up a little fear towards him so that people don't sheep him quite as readily. If he ends up taking a town leader role, I want him to earn it instead of being ushered into it on his reputation.
That doesn't make any sense. I'm not going to sheep someone cuz of their reputation. I'm going to sheep if their case
1) makes sense 2) is good 3) I believe they are town
If he takes a town leader position, it'll be because of those things. Not because of his reputation
##Unvote ##Vote DoYouHas
Then you quickly drop a new vote on DoYouHas. Because...you don't think that you would sheep Ace because he's Ace. DoYouHas does NOT want people sheeping Ace based on reputation. You want the same, but vote him because he said that?
What exactly is your reasoning for voting DoYouHas?
On November 30 2012 11:01 austinmcc wrote: Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
Simply untrue. Scum have plenty to gain by being ignored. Just take a gander in Ver's guide for an example (Misder possibly)
He's not asking to be ignored. This is the chain in which Dandel Ion speaks:
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
He says he's a noob. Discrediting was DoYouHas's word I believe, but I'd argue that
(1) There can be benefits to scum in lurking (2) What Dandel Ion did (making a post calling himself a noob) =/= lurking
To some extent, calling yourself a noob implies that you're going to sit back and let other people do the heavy lifting. But I don't really attribute any kind of purpose to Dandel Ion's post like that, and I don't think it makes sense for scum to point out newness, because iirc every newbie guide says apologies/hiding behind newness = scum.
tl;dr I think there's a difference between lurking/being passive/playing to be ignored and Dandel Ion's post.
Just 2 of many examples of him prodding/analyzing all day long. He is also sharing reads repeatedly e.g.: + Show Spoiler +
On December 02 2012 06:15 Lazermonkey wrote: Austin! You've been posting suspicion on several players now but are yet to cast a vote. Who is, in your opinion, top second etc scum read?
I think Zealos is my top scumread. ##vote: Zealos
Beyond that, I'm worried about...hmmmm. Both you and DP concern me, I don't think both of you are scum, but I can't figure out which is which. Right now, I'm inclined to believe you're scummier between the two. DP had some good points on you, and I was going back and forth with you yesterday because I haven't played with you (I don't think), so I wanted to try and get a better sense of where you were. I came away feeling alright from that exchange, but reading over how some other people viewed it, I think a lot of my good feelings came from the fact that you actually interacted and kept things moving somewhat, and I wasn't paying enough attention to your actual comments on folks.
However, you're not my #2 scumread. That's actually ShiaoPi right now. I don't like typing that out, it seems like someone else should be there, but it's him.
I don't care about reading BH right now, because I think he's useful for town regardless of his alignment. I'm not bothering to really try and solidify reads on some people that aren't relevant to the D1 lynch - Ace, Zentor, DYH. Nobody in the remaining players sticks out to me like Zealos, ShiaoPi, and you do.
Read those posts I quoted, I would assume it gets rather obvious that his d1-play was incredibly pro-town.
Now the main problem of you seems to be that he did not react at all to the redcheck he got. Now without knowing the fact that he has a redcheck, go through his day2 posts, they are more of the same, contstructive posts, pushing discussion, asking questions, sharing reads, in short townplay.
On December 06 2012 08:00 austinmcc wrote: Assorted stuff. I don't think I will die tonight, but there's a small chance, and may as well get this into the open.
I am a watcher. N1 I watched marvellosity. Sandroba, and only Sandroba, visited him. Therefore, Sandroba killed marvellosity. Therefore, Sandroba.
If you look at my D2, I ask Sandroba a couple questions, some concerning his reads on ShiaoPi and WBG, especially his defense of WBG. This is one reason I ended up locked in on WBG and not wanting to lynch ShiaoPi, and one reason I've been weird about ShiaoPi. Sandroba dropped a vote and ShiaoPi early and was gone for much of the rest of the day, and defended WBG in this odd manner. In my mind, knowing that Sandroba was scum, it made the choice between the two easy - lynch WBG.
I didn't claim because I actually thought WBG was scum, that there was no need to claim to ensure a scum lynch. Now, we've got a bit of uncertainty, so I can do so. We can lynch Sandroba to partially-confirm me if you guys would like, you can lynch me to confirm (not recommended).
Tonight I am watching keirathi or BH. Still flipping back and forth between the two (5 minutes until end). Scum, non-sandroba scum, pretty please shoot the guy I'm watching.
Right now I'm worried about the power roles in town. Confirmed cop, confirmed 1 mason pair of at least one townie, I'm confirmed watcher to me. That leaves a vigi...maybe? And maybe other masons.
For a game in which scum had one KP N1 allegedly. Not buying it. Either DYH is scum or SK or scum has large numbers low KP, something. Otherwise, I've kind of been a bum as I am wont to be when blue, relying on role too much to play the game and not analysis, and also trying to wrap my head around CT mafia.
Now that this is in the open, I can go back to playing normally. Slash what an awful end of night/claim post.
Why claim at night if you are scum? YOu could easily just do so at day, since you will not get shot anyway. straightforwardclaim in which he also shares some of his reasons for claiming now, and why he was not on the fence against sandroba.
I can understand him and therefore I chose to believe his claim. Now look further into the day, even when pressured from so many sides he continues to scumhunt: + Show Spoiler +
On December 06 2012 08:43 austinmcc wrote: Although you being scum makes the interactions between you/ShiaoPi and sandroba/ShiaoPi all the weirder. Are you BOTH bussing him? I guess then you bus him, use that post to say it implicates me, then get me lynched while trying to get a little cred for lynching ShiaoPi?
Curious. All I know for sure right now, is that Sandroba is scum. If you think I'm so scummy, why is Sandroba townie? I notice in that post you say "you're leaning town" on Sandroba, but you don't give any further reasoning. See posts like these:
On December 02 2012 01:14 Xatalos wrote: What I'm most concerned about are these players: VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, Dandel Ion. They all have been pretty passive background characters who are not lurking/trolling/playing bad, but not really doing anything either. I think there's a high chance for 1-2 of them being Mafia.
[Stuff on VE]
Dandel Ion hasn't put any real effort into his posts yet. He's just made some fluff one-liners and semi-useful "advice" like these:
On November 30 2012 23:10 Dandel Ion wrote: I mean, I agree that Lazermonkey is being overeager with calling you out like that, but Xatalos already answered you. What information do you expect to gain by asking the same thing again?
On December 01 2012 14:53 Dandel Ion wrote: It's a themed game. Please tell me you're not gonna start a setup speculation.
Just quickly skimmed the thread, do ya still want me to explain how, when and how well I read guides, or did you realize that it was a silly question in the first place yet?
Dandel Ion doesn't just seem to care about Mafia hunting, even though he has posted a decent amount and with semi-useful content as well. I'd need to see some real improvement in his posting to make my suspicions fade. Sharing some reads or anything beneficial to finding Mafia would be a good start.
On December 02 2012 01:25 ShiaoPi wrote: So who do you want to lynch Xata? Which of the three is scummiest to you?
VisceraEyes at the moment. DoYouHas and Dandel Ion haven't made any actual effort to contribute, but they haven't done anything outright scummy either. I'm most suspicious of VE's opportunistic vote for debears and his lack of interest to do pretty much anything useful after that.
On December 02 2012 05:01 Xatalos wrote: If any of VE/DYH/Dandel can't be lynched tonight, at least it's a perfect opportunity to make some pressure. I'll change my target from VE if needed before the deadline.
3 posts, VE and Dandel Ion so scummy. Let's lynch em. Let's lynch em.
N1/D2 - Dandel Ion now Sandroba, Sandroba suddenly townie for no real reason
On December 03 2012 19:54 Xatalos wrote: Of my other original suspects VE was obviously Mafia and DYH is now confirmed town, and Dandel Ion was replaced by sandroba (who feels townish so far) so I'm not willing to lynch other players at this moment.
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Hmm. Alright, I can agree with lynching ShiaoPi today. It also helps that I have a town read on both you and WBG. And ShiaoPi hasn't been lurking quite as heavily as Zealos, but he hasn't done anything either.
##Unvote ##Vote ShiaoPi
Although I'm wondering where Zealos has disappeared. And Lazermonkey. What we need now is more posts by several players who haven't done anything for a while (or even all game).
On December 04 2012 04:36 Xatalos wrote: I'm willing to give Dandel/Sandroba a pass though, since Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been very helpful with his posts.
On December 06 2012 06:16 Xatalos wrote: Realistically DYH, Keirathi, BH and MrZentor are out of the picture. I'm also leaning town on debears, sandroba, austinmcc and Lazermonkey.
Would you care to explain why Sandroba is townie? Would you care to explain why DI was one of your top scum suspects D1, but D2 it's "Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been helpful with his posts" so they get a pass? It's curious to me that one of your top 3 scumreads became a guy you think is townie but you never actually said why.
On December 07 2012 05:15 austinmcc wrote: Lazer, if you're still around, let's have a chat. I wanted to look you over and was, but now you're here. Hooray!
You, along with all other not-mes, find my actions ridiculous and don't believe my claim. Okay. So then, about my play:
(1) You think my play is less optimal as town than as scum. Go into that, why? You think I didn't play out D2 properly if I had a red check. But that applies equally to not playing out my D2 properly if I was going to do this as scum. Especially given that I can easily make up other things as scum. Why is one less optimal than the other?
(2) Have you looked at the past games I listed? Do they matter to you? Should they? As to you, I see a mix of posts in your filter. Mostly short ones. Some longer ones when you respond, make a case on ShiaoPi, actually get involved. But apart from throwing in some general musings on WBG/ShiaoPi and masons, and your case on ShiaoPi, I don't get the feeling there's much there. DYH was worried about you yesterday, and now he's a bit deceased.
So, some questions. At the end of each night, you've given two massive posts of reads. Why? Why not give them throughout the night? Why are most of your reads only ever popping up this late? Moreover, your reads on Sandroba haven't exactly been townie...
On December 06 2012 07:59 Lazermonkey wrote: Sandroba - I haven't done very much analysis on him either. However one of his posts earlier today caught my attention a bit.
On December 05 2012 21:28 sandroba wrote: wow. you guys. really. you make me sad.
Remember that Sandrobawas not present during the lynch. Not even close, He basically went afk about 12 hours before it. Also, he doesn't actually comment on anything regarding the lynch. Just that it's bad. Saying stuff like this risk to demoralize town. So why would someone as town say this? I really don't see the motivation for it. Not really lych worthy but still. I will look more closely into sandroba later.
You don't see a town motivation for a post Sandroba made. That's basically your only comment on Sandroba. Did you ever go look at Sandroba? If not...why not? Especially given he's a major player in today's lynch, why haven't you looked at him?
THough to most of you this post of him sums it up pretty much I guess:
On December 06 2012 08:46 austinmcc wrote: Breadcrumbs can be faked np. Same as with a breadcrumb, if you believe my claim, you may find that it explains some of my ShiaoPi v. WBG actions, and explains me trying to milk info from Sandroba. If you don't, you'll think I'm making it up, whether breadcrumb or explanation.
The "anything" that I can PROVE my role with would be nothing, unless we have a rolecop. However, Sandro will flip red whenever you lynch him. And I'll flip watcher if I die.
I believe him, you don't, I have a scumread on sandroba you dont. Also please keep in mind he was the only one who asked for mason logs. Those logs have basically confirmed BH/Zentor as town, there is no fucking way that those were faked. What would be to gain for austin to keep asking for the logs at end of the n2 and now during d3. Don't tell me it's this, because he obviously was not serious:
On December 07 2012 09:38 austinmcc wrote: Grrrrrr, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO NOT HAVE LOGS AND THEN WE CAN ALL YELL "GOTCHA!"
There is so much more town-motivated play behind austins post than behind sandroba. Thing is you are all blinded by the fact that he did not push a redcheck he had. Everything else is unimportant to you. So following your logic there is no way for me to convince you even with this wall of text. But please please consider what I wrote here. Austin is our watcher and it is incredibly silly to lynch him now....
I agree that austinmcc's play was proactive and overall townish during Day 1. That's why I put him as a townread then. The point where I started getting suspicious was him squirming about you (especially since you're starting to feel like a confirmed scum at this point). Then his claim... He didn't breadcrumb his redcheck, he didn't act upon it in the slightest... It's just too much to believe it's real. It's a point in his favor that he asked for masonlogs, but it's something easy to do as either alignment, and doesn't really tell much (they would have probably provided them sooner or later in any case).
I'm not really convinced of that scumread you have on Sandroba. You start by saying that he's "looking much better than Dandel" (who was somewhat of a null read). So you had a townread on him before the events of Day 2? But you don't really point out anything scummy in his play during Day 2 - okay, maybe his inactivity, laziness to reason and opinion changes without real explanation, but those are just lazy/anti-town/null traits, not inherently SCUMMY traits. If you compare to MrZentor, MrZentor has been WAY more fickle and lazy than Sandroba ever was. Yet he's very evidently town. There's just no Mafia agenda to be seen behind Sandroba, although I agree that his play as town isn't optimal.
On December 07 2012 21:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Let's get this on,
Sandroba/Dandel Ion: I am starting this with another look at Dandel Ion, remember the one sandroba replaced? No, well that's the thing, he never took any position and was replaced out before he voted, maybe it is due to time constraints, but keep it in the back of your mind that Dandel Ion was more than happy to do nothing d1.
Now onto the n1 and beyond when sand takes over n1: Sandroba is active a lot and does some prodding around the relevant issues in thread at that time, So far he already looks miles better than dandel ever did. not much to take notice of here. At the end of the night he gives out a couple of reads:
On December 03 2012 07:40 sandroba wrote: I have to go out quickly so I'ma post my thoughts early: Sandroba's Town List for dummies (TM): WBG - marvelosity = both too emo ragers for it to be fake. I can't see the genuine asshole behavior being faked here and there is no scum motivation for it. I would seriously like to lynch marv for being an assface jerk, but unfortunately I can't convince myself he is scum. Xatalos - LOL this guy is so townie I don't understand how you baddies manage to bandwagon him day 1. 'Nuff said. DYH - I really thought this guy was scum for his retard case on xatalos before I read the last 30 pages. However that last minute claim looks really good so I'm putting him as town. Hopefully he can get confirmed by shooting into scummers tonight. Assuming scum have 1 rb (can't really imagine them having 2) either him or marv should get their actions through.
Scummers : Zealos, BlazingHand are scum. I don't think I need to explain why for BH. Read Zealos oportunistic jump on xata wagon. That post has scum written all over it.
People that I'm unsure but leaning scum: VE - who you might ask? Yes this dude is playing in this game. I bet you didn't know either. Kei/Ace - Meh ace is a hard one for me to figure out. I thought he was scum when I was obsing because of his "Oh this is interesting" comment, but I'm liking kei a bit more. This BH case seems very convinient though.
First thing in the morning, he votes for me, "convinced" by bugs trash "case".
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Look at this closely! First he agrees with bugs nitpicking from the filter of VE, where I get mentioned, then he says he "assumes" BH as town in this scenario, when he was his biggest scumread earlier. As main thing justifiying this change of opinion is VE's filter yet again, but this time he is suddenly wary of the things inside VE's filter. I do get softdefended by VE but VE being "ok" with lynching BH is basically the same thing if you take it at facevalue. Now the intersting thing is that he is willing to lynch a less-risky target instead of his earlier top-scumread....
For most of the day he is doing nothing, except some more double-standards regarding VE's filter:
On December 04 2012 02:57 sandroba wrote: It is indeed possible that VE threw zealos name out there and said he would agree to bus him next day out of the blue. It's just not likely.
It is basically WIFOM but here WIFOM is not enough to convince him to make a go on Zealos, while in my case it was enough. Why? Then he cruises by until the bugs train gains momentum. He posts this:
On December 04 2012 23:08 sandroba wrote: LISTEN PEOPLE! I've reread WBG's filter a couple times by now. Consider please that yesterday lynch was between 2 townies and scum shot marvelosity. WBG's behavior makes no sense as mafia. Even if you can twist it somehow like you guys have been trying to do, the tone and emotional content of his posts are very genuine. I've played with mafia bugs before, and while he is hard to read, he is either non confrontational or trollish, he doesn't pick fights with people for absolutely no gain like he has been doing this game. Now let's look at ShiaoPi. This dude is desperetely trying to survive. Compare his posts d1, when he wasn't in any danger, to his posts today. He is trying really hard to justify any bandwagons he can hop on to save his own ass. Also look at how this retard wagon on bugs gained traction out of the blue. Even more reason to suspect we were right about ShiaoPi. Use your heads please.
He is defending his hardtownread, but what is the main argument tone/emotional content are genuine? seriously? He also engages with debears case:
On December 04 2012 23:47 sandroba wrote: Adressing points on debears case: 1) WBG defended DP, but didn't care DYH was lynched. I would have mislynched DYH 100% D1 if not for his vigi claim. As I've stated before I thought his case on xatalos was utter bullshit and was very convinced of this guy being scum before replacing in. It doesn't surprise me that WBG didn't care if DYH got lynched instead of DP, which he had a town read on. Now as to why he didn't push DYH instead of going for marv I don't know, but I have to admit that marv's claim was pretty sketchy and I had to think real hard before determining he was likely town. "I am DT" in the middle of D1 with slight pressure on him, followed by "I might not be sane" after people start unvoting him looks suspicious as fuck, specially when you are biased because the dude is being a dick in the thread. For mafia it would make way more sense and be way easier to simply ignore marv and try to get into one of the main alternate wagons. Since you say WBG had no qualms lynching DYH why would he not as mafia simply jump on his wagon instead of trying to get marv lynched. Surely you can imagine the backlash he would suffer once marv flipped DT.
2)Vote on marv I adressed this on the block above.
3)Bunch of random facts stating facts and saying that they are scummy does not make it so. 'nuff said
4)bunch of random facts see above
5) Meta comparison to mad men I thought he was mafia on mad men. I then learned he wasn't. Your comparison is good for proving he is likely town this game though. You see, wbg and erandor had a much closer relationship than you-him. WBG expected erandor to identify he is town and got pissed off and raged in the thread. Simillar to how he expects better of marv and raged in the thread/assumed he was scum for playing like shit D1. The fact that he didn't adress your points can be explained by how he doesn't know your play/doesn't expect much from you and sees no needs to adress a case that has no traction. I doesn't mean he is auto mafia for ignoring you, sorry.
6) claims meta is the same even if you say it isn't yes. so?
Except of the first paragraph he is actually not answering the case at all, he is just talking it down, trying to shut it down with not much real arguments. It would basically be okayish to do that, but in regards of bugs flip and austins check I think he was just trying to get some cred for defending bugs.
Now in further pushing me:
On December 04 2012 23:51 sandroba wrote: @shiaopi I'm voting for you because i think you are scum. Doesn't matter if you say "but, but, but, i didn't do anything, it's ve's fault" or w/e. To find scum you need to define a pattern in which you believe they will behave given a specific situation. Unfortunatelly for you, you fit the pattern I arbitrarily defined that scum would behave day 1 in a 2 townie wagon and then day 2 after being acused. Ve's comment is just icing on the cake and serves to strenghen my belief and make everything fit toghether even more nicely.
So I am scum, because he decided so, nice stuff, nice stuff. Fast forward to n2:
On December 05 2012 22:19 sandroba wrote: Xatalos is most likely not scum. The random Shiaopi isn't scum makes no sense. If you look carefully of how the day went the most likely scenario is that he is indeed scum, given the counter wagons and the hopping out of his wagon as soon as it became clear that there was a possibility of him not being lynched. I don't agree that debears looks townie. I would put him toghether with lazer and austin as the possible remaining scum (besisdes shiaopi). These mason claims I'm going to look into some more. 4 masons does seem like a lot, but I never before have seen scum claiming it.
He is now stating the scumteam as me and some out of lazer/austin/debears. Little to no reasoning at all (besides some stupid stuff about me), looking in his filter we have exactly this mentioning of Lazer, while I can agree with that read since he is fucking useless in gaga-tunneling it is interesting to see debears and austin on that list as well. Sure it can be kind of through negative deduction with him having town reads on Xata and all the masons, but besides this post there is little to no interaction between him and these two. How did he arrive on these reads and why?
Now in d3, he just votes austin, not a big deal as scum or town would do that in face of a redcheck, but wtf starting speculation on a possible traitor role? Sure it is a closed setup and the game is called paranoia, but why bring it up in the first place? Occams Razor says he is either a watcher with a red check or a stupid scum for doing a fakeclaim to trade 1for1. I am inclined to believe it is a watcher.
On November 30 2012 09:49 DoYouHas wrote: @Darth, what I remember about Xata is that he is not a bad player. With 3-4 games under his belt he may be one of the newest in the game, but I would not call him a complete noob.
What I see are multiple posts that seem uncomfortable and uncertain. His attempt at making a joke out of BH's vote just seems awkward. Making light of confrontation is classic avoidance behavior, something that I think is more likely to be true because of the awkward phrasing.
You could very well be right that this is just noob Xata being genuinely uncomfortable with the start of the game. But you are foolish if you dismiss such classically scummy behavior just because there is a different explanation.
PS: I don't think you are going to like me very much given your advice to Xata. I spend quite a bit of time on my posts regardless of alignment.
All I ask is that you take his newness into account. Marv is right though It probably was unnecessary to request this given the player list. However, I don't think it caused any harm either.
post how you want. I just read his post as awkward and attributed it to him attempting to over polish his posts. His case on your read that way as well.
Can't say I loved his case either.
DP plz stop being silly with the noobness argument.
Any given sunday brah
Your ridiculous. The only thing silly about it was that potentially people should have known what i was requesting already.
This comment was completely unneeded, brought up something which was over, and just repeated what marv and others said about it.
##vote: debears
Cool. You want to read my other posts which are about other stuff?
Or do you really think I could be scum?
I read your other posts. mostly meh. That post was scummy though.
Care to tell me why they are mostly meh?
specifically on the one about the marv town read, the dandel vote, and the doyouhas vote
I find it odd that you pick out one of my least important posts while ignoring my more important ones and find me scummy from it
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
##Vote Dandel
@Dandel
So you're going to discredit yourself amongst these players by calling yourself a noob? That doesn't make much sense from a town perspective.
Also, were you being sarcastic earlier in how serious you were saying we shouldn't joke and stuff?
Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
On November 30 2012 08:25 DoYouHas wrote: Hi everyone, looking forward to an active game. It's nice to recognize many of the names on the playerlist even though I haven't played in a while.
I'm happy to see Marv/BH/VE in here. With those 3 there is no reason the thread should be inactive.
I'm perhaps overly cautious of Ace. His reputation obviously precedes him. Never having played with him paired with the knowledge that he can be a devastatingly effective scum leader makes me a little paranoid.
As always, I am in favor of lurker lynching on day1 unless a better candidate shows up (which it inevitably will).
DoYouHas
Why are you trying to paint such a picture on ace? Sure, he is a forefather of TL Mafia, and I'm sure all of us are aware of his ability. But why try to focus on his scumplay so much over his town play?
As I recall, he is also a pretty darn good town player. Stating how you are overly cautious of him (implying somewhat to others that they should also be) just because he's a good mafia player doesn't seem like something a townie would do
Because it does the dual job of accurately explaining my feelings towards him to start the game and hopefully stirring up a little fear towards him so that people don't sheep him quite as readily. If he ends up taking a town leader role, I want him to earn it instead of being ushered into it on his reputation.
That doesn't make any sense. I'm not going to sheep someone cuz of their reputation. I'm going to sheep if their case
1) makes sense 2) is good 3) I believe they are town
If he takes a town leader position, it'll be because of those things. Not because of his reputation
##Unvote ##Vote DoYouHas
Then you quickly drop a new vote on DoYouHas. Because...you don't think that you would sheep Ace because he's Ace. DoYouHas does NOT want people sheeping Ace based on reputation. You want the same, but vote him because he said that?
What exactly is your reasoning for voting DoYouHas?
On November 30 2012 11:01 austinmcc wrote: Dandel is discrediting himself. You say it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. However, it doesn't make any more sense from a scum perspective.
Simply untrue. Scum have plenty to gain by being ignored. Just take a gander in Ver's guide for an example (Misder possibly)
He's not asking to be ignored. This is the chain in which Dandel Ion speaks:
On November 30 2012 08:59 Blazinghand wrote: ##vote Xatalos
I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Heheh.. What ever should I do. Clearly I've been found out!
Well that is a suspicious way of responding to BH's vote.
##Vote Xatalos
Wrong. He is a noob. (no offense) you can't read too much into things like that with him.
I'm a noob too, and you already lynched me
So inconsistant
He says he's a noob. Discrediting was DoYouHas's word I believe, but I'd argue that
(1) There can be benefits to scum in lurking (2) What Dandel Ion did (making a post calling himself a noob) =/= lurking
To some extent, calling yourself a noob implies that you're going to sit back and let other people do the heavy lifting. But I don't really attribute any kind of purpose to Dandel Ion's post like that, and I don't think it makes sense for scum to point out newness, because iirc every newbie guide says apologies/hiding behind newness = scum.
tl;dr I think there's a difference between lurking/being passive/playing to be ignored and Dandel Ion's post.
Just 2 of many examples of him prodding/analyzing all day long. He is also sharing reads repeatedly e.g.: + Show Spoiler +
On December 02 2012 06:15 Lazermonkey wrote: Austin! You've been posting suspicion on several players now but are yet to cast a vote. Who is, in your opinion, top second etc scum read?
I think Zealos is my top scumread. ##vote: Zealos
Beyond that, I'm worried about...hmmmm. Both you and DP concern me, I don't think both of you are scum, but I can't figure out which is which. Right now, I'm inclined to believe you're scummier between the two. DP had some good points on you, and I was going back and forth with you yesterday because I haven't played with you (I don't think), so I wanted to try and get a better sense of where you were. I came away feeling alright from that exchange, but reading over how some other people viewed it, I think a lot of my good feelings came from the fact that you actually interacted and kept things moving somewhat, and I wasn't paying enough attention to your actual comments on folks.
However, you're not my #2 scumread. That's actually ShiaoPi right now. I don't like typing that out, it seems like someone else should be there, but it's him.
I don't care about reading BH right now, because I think he's useful for town regardless of his alignment. I'm not bothering to really try and solidify reads on some people that aren't relevant to the D1 lynch - Ace, Zentor, DYH. Nobody in the remaining players sticks out to me like Zealos, ShiaoPi, and you do.
Read those posts I quoted, I would assume it gets rather obvious that his d1-play was incredibly pro-town.
Now the main problem of you seems to be that he did not react at all to the redcheck he got. Now without knowing the fact that he has a redcheck, go through his day2 posts, they are more of the same, contstructive posts, pushing discussion, asking questions, sharing reads, in short townplay.
On December 06 2012 08:00 austinmcc wrote: Assorted stuff. I don't think I will die tonight, but there's a small chance, and may as well get this into the open.
I am a watcher. N1 I watched marvellosity. Sandroba, and only Sandroba, visited him. Therefore, Sandroba killed marvellosity. Therefore, Sandroba.
If you look at my D2, I ask Sandroba a couple questions, some concerning his reads on ShiaoPi and WBG, especially his defense of WBG. This is one reason I ended up locked in on WBG and not wanting to lynch ShiaoPi, and one reason I've been weird about ShiaoPi. Sandroba dropped a vote and ShiaoPi early and was gone for much of the rest of the day, and defended WBG in this odd manner. In my mind, knowing that Sandroba was scum, it made the choice between the two easy - lynch WBG.
I didn't claim because I actually thought WBG was scum, that there was no need to claim to ensure a scum lynch. Now, we've got a bit of uncertainty, so I can do so. We can lynch Sandroba to partially-confirm me if you guys would like, you can lynch me to confirm (not recommended).
Tonight I am watching keirathi or BH. Still flipping back and forth between the two (5 minutes until end). Scum, non-sandroba scum, pretty please shoot the guy I'm watching.
Right now I'm worried about the power roles in town. Confirmed cop, confirmed 1 mason pair of at least one townie, I'm confirmed watcher to me. That leaves a vigi...maybe? And maybe other masons.
For a game in which scum had one KP N1 allegedly. Not buying it. Either DYH is scum or SK or scum has large numbers low KP, something. Otherwise, I've kind of been a bum as I am wont to be when blue, relying on role too much to play the game and not analysis, and also trying to wrap my head around CT mafia.
Now that this is in the open, I can go back to playing normally. Slash what an awful end of night/claim post.
Why claim at night if you are scum? YOu could easily just do so at day, since you will not get shot anyway. straightforwardclaim in which he also shares some of his reasons for claiming now, and why he was not on the fence against sandroba.
I can understand him and therefore I chose to believe his claim. Now look further into the day, even when pressured from so many sides he continues to scumhunt: + Show Spoiler +
On December 06 2012 08:43 austinmcc wrote: Although you being scum makes the interactions between you/ShiaoPi and sandroba/ShiaoPi all the weirder. Are you BOTH bussing him? I guess then you bus him, use that post to say it implicates me, then get me lynched while trying to get a little cred for lynching ShiaoPi?
Curious. All I know for sure right now, is that Sandroba is scum. If you think I'm so scummy, why is Sandroba townie? I notice in that post you say "you're leaning town" on Sandroba, but you don't give any further reasoning. See posts like these:
On December 02 2012 01:14 Xatalos wrote: What I'm most concerned about are these players: VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, Dandel Ion. They all have been pretty passive background characters who are not lurking/trolling/playing bad, but not really doing anything either. I think there's a high chance for 1-2 of them being Mafia.
[Stuff on VE]
Dandel Ion hasn't put any real effort into his posts yet. He's just made some fluff one-liners and semi-useful "advice" like these:
On November 30 2012 23:10 Dandel Ion wrote: I mean, I agree that Lazermonkey is being overeager with calling you out like that, but Xatalos already answered you. What information do you expect to gain by asking the same thing again?
On December 01 2012 14:53 Dandel Ion wrote: It's a themed game. Please tell me you're not gonna start a setup speculation.
Just quickly skimmed the thread, do ya still want me to explain how, when and how well I read guides, or did you realize that it was a silly question in the first place yet?
Dandel Ion doesn't just seem to care about Mafia hunting, even though he has posted a decent amount and with semi-useful content as well. I'd need to see some real improvement in his posting to make my suspicions fade. Sharing some reads or anything beneficial to finding Mafia would be a good start.
On December 02 2012 01:25 ShiaoPi wrote: So who do you want to lynch Xata? Which of the three is scummiest to you?
VisceraEyes at the moment. DoYouHas and Dandel Ion haven't made any actual effort to contribute, but they haven't done anything outright scummy either. I'm most suspicious of VE's opportunistic vote for debears and his lack of interest to do pretty much anything useful after that.
On December 02 2012 05:01 Xatalos wrote: If any of VE/DYH/Dandel can't be lynched tonight, at least it's a perfect opportunity to make some pressure. I'll change my target from VE if needed before the deadline.
3 posts, VE and Dandel Ion so scummy. Let's lynch em. Let's lynch em.
N1/D2 - Dandel Ion now Sandroba, Sandroba suddenly townie for no real reason
On December 03 2012 19:54 Xatalos wrote: Of my other original suspects VE was obviously Mafia and DYH is now confirmed town, and Dandel Ion was replaced by sandroba (who feels townish so far) so I'm not willing to lynch other players at this moment.
On December 03 2012 21:38 sandroba wrote: Hmm Bugs does have a point. Also if we assume BH is town ShiaoPi does fit the same theme as VE yesterday. A totally unimpactful player that just stood by the sidelines, because their team was never in danger. I'm willing to roll with that because I'm getting cold feet about BH flipping scum (VE mentioning he is okay with lynching him/zealos should at least make us consider looking in another direction) and Shiao isn't doing shit so it's less risk involved. ##Vote: ShiaoPi
Hmm. Alright, I can agree with lynching ShiaoPi today. It also helps that I have a town read on both you and WBG. And ShiaoPi hasn't been lurking quite as heavily as Zealos, but he hasn't done anything either.
##Unvote ##Vote ShiaoPi
Although I'm wondering where Zealos has disappeared. And Lazermonkey. What we need now is more posts by several players who haven't done anything for a while (or even all game).
On December 04 2012 04:36 Xatalos wrote: I'm willing to give Dandel/Sandroba a pass though, since Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been very helpful with his posts.
On December 06 2012 06:16 Xatalos wrote: Realistically DYH, Keirathi, BH and MrZentor are out of the picture. I'm also leaning town on debears, sandroba, austinmcc and Lazermonkey.
Would you care to explain why Sandroba is townie? Would you care to explain why DI was one of your top scum suspects D1, but D2 it's "Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been helpful with his posts" so they get a pass? It's curious to me that one of your top 3 scumreads became a guy you think is townie but you never actually said why.
On December 07 2012 05:15 austinmcc wrote: Lazer, if you're still around, let's have a chat. I wanted to look you over and was, but now you're here. Hooray!
You, along with all other not-mes, find my actions ridiculous and don't believe my claim. Okay. So then, about my play:
(1) You think my play is less optimal as town than as scum. Go into that, why? You think I didn't play out D2 properly if I had a red check. But that applies equally to not playing out my D2 properly if I was going to do this as scum. Especially given that I can easily make up other things as scum. Why is one less optimal than the other?
(2) Have you looked at the past games I listed? Do they matter to you? Should they? As to you, I see a mix of posts in your filter. Mostly short ones. Some longer ones when you respond, make a case on ShiaoPi, actually get involved. But apart from throwing in some general musings on WBG/ShiaoPi and masons, and your case on ShiaoPi, I don't get the feeling there's much there. DYH was worried about you yesterday, and now he's a bit deceased.
So, some questions. At the end of each night, you've given two massive posts of reads. Why? Why not give them throughout the night? Why are most of your reads only ever popping up this late? Moreover, your reads on Sandroba haven't exactly been townie...
On December 06 2012 07:59 Lazermonkey wrote: Sandroba - I haven't done very much analysis on him either. However one of his posts earlier today caught my attention a bit.
On December 05 2012 21:28 sandroba wrote: wow. you guys. really. you make me sad.
Remember that Sandrobawas not present during the lynch. Not even close, He basically went afk about 12 hours before it. Also, he doesn't actually comment on anything regarding the lynch. Just that it's bad. Saying stuff like this risk to demoralize town. So why would someone as town say this? I really don't see the motivation for it. Not really lych worthy but still. I will look more closely into sandroba later.
You don't see a town motivation for a post Sandroba made. That's basically your only comment on Sandroba. Did you ever go look at Sandroba? If not...why not? Especially given he's a major player in today's lynch, why haven't you looked at him?
THough to most of you this post of him sums it up pretty much I guess:
On December 06 2012 08:46 austinmcc wrote: Breadcrumbs can be faked np. Same as with a breadcrumb, if you believe my claim, you may find that it explains some of my ShiaoPi v. WBG actions, and explains me trying to milk info from Sandroba. If you don't, you'll think I'm making it up, whether breadcrumb or explanation.
The "anything" that I can PROVE my role with would be nothing, unless we have a rolecop. However, Sandro will flip red whenever you lynch him. And I'll flip watcher if I die.
I believe him, you don't, I have a scumread on sandroba you dont. Also please keep in mind he was the only one who asked for mason logs. Those logs have basically confirmed BH/Zentor as town, there is no fucking way that those were faked. What would be to gain for austin to keep asking for the logs at end of the n2 and now during d3. Don't tell me it's this, because he obviously was not serious:
On December 07 2012 09:38 austinmcc wrote: Grrrrrr, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO NOT HAVE LOGS AND THEN WE CAN ALL YELL "GOTCHA!"
There is so much more town-motivated play behind austins post than behind sandroba. Thing is you are all blinded by the fact that he did not push a redcheck he had. Everything else is unimportant to you. So following your logic there is no way for me to convince you even with this wall of text. But please please consider what I wrote here. Austin is our watcher and it is incredibly silly to lynch him now....
I agree that austinmcc's play was proactive and overall townish during Day 1. That's why I put him as a townread then. The point where I started getting suspicious was him squirming about you (especially since you're starting to feel like a confirmed scum at this point). Then his claim... He didn't breadcrumb his redcheck, he didn't act upon it in the slightest... It's just too much to believe it's real. It's a point in his favor that he asked for masonlogs, but it's something easy to do as either alignment, and doesn't really tell much (they would have probably provided them sooner or later in any case).
I'm not really convinced of that scumread you have on Sandroba. You start by saying that he's "looking much better than Dandel" (who was somewhat of a null read). So you had a townread on him before the events of Day 2? But you don't really point out anything scummy in his play during Day 2 - okay, maybe his inactivity, laziness to reason and opinion changes without real explanation, but those are just lazy/anti-town/null traits, not inherently SCUMMY traits. If you compare to MrZentor, MrZentor has been WAY more fickle and lazy than Sandroba ever was. Yet he's very evidently town. There's just no Mafia agenda to be seen behind Sandroba, although I agree that his play as town isn't optimal.
I am asking you to look at the players directly disregard the claim issue for a sec and tell me who is scummier. Surely not austin
EPT
