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Obzy
United States525 Posts
I didn't want to in on the last one due to not being sure if I'd have enough time to be active, given that I'm normally only able to read for a couple hours throughout the day. But after the activity shown in the last game... I may have been setting the bar too high for myself. Here's to the game filling up fast >:0 | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 03 2012 00:50 Rad wrote: You're going to wish there was a vig when obzy pulls a roco I'll try to avoid that =l Obsing the previous game was somewhat painful. | ||
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Obzy
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Obzy
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I normally won't be here exactly at lynch assuming it's 5PM PST, I'm at work on weekdays then - most of my reading and responses will be done after work. (Not all, because I'm apparently a horrible employee, but - most. Anything within about 16 hours of the lynch on non-weekends is sorta chancy and depends on schedule.) Lurking does sound sort of bad in this setup, not like it is ever a good thing. Last game, there were a couple of days where Alsn talked to himself in circles (with jogger and scumteam hopping in occasionally) for what felt like an eternity; that probably isn't ideal for trying to come to conclusions? Probably? debears - How is it mafia favored? I was reading a little earlier on the mafiascum wiki [because of how fucking pumped I am for this] and saw that this is sorta similar (if not equal to) C9+2 setup... which was imbalanced I guess compared to C9 which is more like 5v2? Why is it worse to have more townies? >_>;; Am I missing something here? | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 03 2012 10:21 debears wrote: @obsy Its mafia favored compared to the last setup. Only 9 players means a quicker game. A quicker game is better foe mafia since they don't have to fake their townieness for so long. Also look at the roles like medic. Medic can't target the same person twice (was it also that he can't target himself? I'm on my phone and i really don't want to check Oh I see. That makes sense, I guess. Thanks~ | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
If that makes any sense ._.; | ||
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Obzy
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Upon looking at it that way, your posts and being interested in Alsn's word choice is surprisingly defensive. Given that there wasn't really any way for other players to pop their heads in and comment without semi-defusing the situation saying "it wasn't that big of a deal", why hold onto it? Quite specifically, On November 03 2012 10:35 debears wrote: - why ask something like that? I didn't really think it worth paying any mind to, but you kept going on it.Anyways what's your guys thoughts on alsns post? (And now, just above, you're asking djo why he didn't get involved in your argument - I didn't want to get involved either, it seemed largely purposeless.) jesus i type this post, read for spelling mistakes, reopen a new browser to make sure i'm not missing some sort of new information and fucking blammo like 5 posts | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
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Obzy
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On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: Obsy has been around the thread. What I have found is that he seems to be actively lurking. Notice above post. Asking a pretty much useless question. It's newbie town/scum tell, so it's a null tell Yeah, I've been trying to read and refresh the thread regularly, I think I've been away from it for maybe an hour total since game start. On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: He has a few one-liners like the above. Mostly, his posts do not take a strong stance and his opinions seem to be easily swayed. Again newbie town/scum tell. I've typed out a few posts that were a bit longer, but after re-reading, it didn't look like they did anything to advance town interests and the only thing they did was look spammy and unhelpful, so I've mostly been deleting them. I am, as mentioned, not really certain whether or not I'm judging things properly and taking a concrete stance on something that turns out to be stupid feels sort of dumb. On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: I don't like this post. At all. Trying to come up with excuses to not be posting. Sure the thread is moving pretty decently (score one for town), but it's nothing huge and pretty easy to follow so far imo. No comment, it does move really fast. On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: Here he acts confused. He asks questions without answering them himself or even really attempting to answer them himself. I didn't really want to call you out directly. You responded really strongly to Alsn's red font, and it seemed counterproductive - but stifling discussion is a problem; given that you've been the primary generator of discussion. On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: Who have a tough time contributing early? Usually scum because 1) They are afraid to post and put themselves out there since they are guilty and know so 2) They know the players they are accusing are town and they can't actually find real evidence to use However, I admit this is also a newbie town trait. I don't have a problem with posting, I don't want to post meaninglessly. Writing about things that are actually useful and will help everybody is difficult, because when I look at what I've drafted it looks moronic and doesn't help anybody. Answering being directly called out is a lot easier, since I don't have to cast about for what to say, I just have to explain how I'm playing. On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: Honestly, this post is just absolutely worthless. It has no actual input. Says nothing about the current happenings of the thread. I wanted the conversation to shift away from talking about Cheese using jokes or not. It was a meaningless thing to discuss. Pointing it out so early and then dwelling on it for so long meant that it isn't a good scumtell for Cheese, while also making him aware of the fact he was doing it (Assuming that it WAS a scumtell, it no longer is). That entire discussion was just a waste of time, so I would say that it makes sense that my post, pointing it out, was equally useless. I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
@debears Honestly, I thought a lot of the arguments you were forcing were somewhat ridiculous. It's not stuff that I thought was worth commenting on, it just spammed the thread... However. Why would you even bother with that as mafia? Although your playstyle 120% is not mine, I think you have a town slant at the moment, I'll go look through your filter but would be surprised if it changed as a result of that. Rad and Clarity are playing in the same way I am, afai can tell. Slightly lurking but contributing when possible. I think both of them are town as a result, just because it's the way I am playing. (Again, I'll go look, but... if I haven't had something jump out at me in a normal read-through, I don't think filters will help much.) I'm most interested in da0ud and sylver, just because they haven't said anything at all. Not necessarily implying they are scum, just that non-posting is absolutely impossible to read. Ughhhh I'll reread the thread and see if anything stands out. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
"The worst way to play day 1 is with apathy and disinterest and lynch the most outspoken/controversial player, who is never going to be mafia." Yes, he could have read that and tried to act like that intentionally. And I agree that a large number of posts lack purpose, it makes it hard to read the thread. But he's definitely the most active person, voting for him right now feels like a bad choice. =l (Also, not to imply that anybody is playing with apathy or disinterest!) | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
@Rad I just finished reading through your filter. It's almost depressing - I really appreciate how you're encouraging - but I haven't seen any cases. MLG is a valid excuse IMHO, tomorrow I would also like to see some reads on players from you. I really want you to be town, but I don't know if there's anything backing up you being town any more than there is ME being town. ^^; I will be sure to take a look regarding dembearz, though - that filter is going to be sort of miserable to read haha :0 | ||
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Obzy
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There really hasn't been enough said. His entire contribution to the thread was a quick jab at debears, talking for 40 minutes past when he said he was going to bed, and leaving. I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I have any idea. @Clarity Is lurking a bit, responding when relevant. Similar to Rad. Similar to myself but better, not like that's difficult :[. Also was watching MLG; hopefully tomorrow he has reads on people, rather than lurking and commenting when relevant to try to move discussion along. Still reading ._.;; | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
@Cheese >:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. That sounds like the sort of thing I would do. Bringing up the not using newbness as an excuse without calling me out specifically (as the only player who was not participating in the previous game) and then pointing out a scumtell based on inexperience looks like a trap. It may be valid, but combined with the earlier statement, there doesn't really seem to be an answer besides inexperienced town and scum, and you've already indicated that inexperienced town is unacceptable. Why wouldn't you just vote? FoS Mr. Cheese. @Djo Notes: ignores deb/Als argument, policy discussion, mechanics discussion, argument with Cheesecake. If I didn't dislike CC's argument, I'd be a little more doubtful, but... I do dislike it. I think part of the problem for Djo is I have a hard time reading some of his sentences, so it's a little harder to follow his exact train of thought lol. Given that I'm suspicious of CC, I don't have a real problem with Djo at this time. @debears [I seriously clicked your filter and cringed before realizing it's 4 pages, not 40.] (Also, @sylver..) However I may have mentioned FoS vs vote confusion at the top of this post that I wrote like 30 minutes ago, I really don't like the vote on debears at all. If I'm wrong, fucking bummer, but debears is driving conversation. His filter's not easy to read, but the content is useful to Me, at least. I wish I wasn't getting attacked har har, but the activeness in making me respond to stop lurking is a townie move IMHO. If he was mafia, he would've let me continue happily lurking and reading to my heart's content and then blasted me in a day, rather than trying to get me to start contributing early on. For god's sake, it had been less than 6 hours from the start of the game, you hadn't even appeared yet, there were people with only a few words and he writes up a post designed to get me to contribute? That definitely feels townie to me. I don't see how you could come to the opposite conclusion. Some (Maybe even a lot!) of the filter is pretty pointless and could've gone unsaid. The parts that DID go said are, I think, the best in the thread. If he didn't have quality bits in the filter along with the spam I'd think differently but the quality parts look solid. I definitely think he's town at the moment. You haven't interacted with anybody besides Rad and myself, and your first post comes in and blasts debears? @da0ud What the hell dude, get in here and post >_> You can't do worse than me ffs I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Clarity and Rad still look town. db looks town. I'm worried about Sylver. I thought that his logic on voting debears was legitimate, due to the difference between content-filled posts and non-useful posts, but this- was not at all what I was thinking. I was considering the more spammy posts to be some of the shallower arguments, like joke-metas and general aggressiveness. Single, isolated posts that include no legitimate content are not difficult to read through. Perhaps this is nit-picking, but bringing up these posts does not sit well with me, if the intention was to show db's 'empty' filter. He's helping to create a pro-town atmosphere with those posts, and they can't be used for any sort of analysis. I still don't think debears is scummy for bringing me up, @rad. It got me to post, so the method doesn't matter. (Even if pointing out the flaws in the posts makes sense.) I don't know what to think about Djo. He told me it'd be better to focus my attention, but was talking about plurality lynch implying that we should be willing to remain unfocused early on, since a majority isn't required - maybe I'm misinterpreting? CC's post about going after sylver for early vote pressure and then referencing previous games doesn't really make him look that bad though, it looks too blatant. Like, why would he make that mistake as scum <_< it goes directly against the way he had been playing lol. He has some scummy stuff but I wouldn't want to vote him. I'd continue but someone just asked if I wanted to go get lunch so I'm going to do so. Haven't had time to look at Alsn or CC's filters. Sylver looks bad-ish, Rad Clar and debears look good atm imho. Should be back in a few hours, I kinda want to do something today besides sitting reading the thread with a notebook ^_^;; But I'll try to be around, if anybody has anything to ask me please do so; I'll sit down with it when I get back again. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
imo :x Be back later, as mentioned above. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 04 2012 04:06 Alsn wrote: Obsy, I'd like you to revise your statement at the end of your post. Sylver looks "bad"? What does that even mean? Rad, Clar, and debears looks good? Again, what does this mean? Does bad = scum? Or are you just accusing him of making bad arguments? Sorry - Rad, Clar, and debears look town. Sylver looks scummy. I haven't read past this post yet, but if there was confusion due to my wording, that's my own fault. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
@debears He's the most inactive right now, I agree. But I don't think he'll be active again for at least a few hours. I want to see how he acts over the next day before I can get a good read on him. @CC, regarding Rad (and Clar) Rad is playing the way that I want to play. That I'm trying to play. If I thought he was scum, then I am fucking awful at this game, because it's a playstyle I want to emulate, and trying to emulate scum as town would be absolutely moronic. Looking at what he's posted so far, I can't really imagine voting for him unless something very big were to come up (like an impossible claim, lol). @Alsn I think Alsn is town. I've already pointed out a few times how I think Rad is town, and these two posts: On November 04 2012 06:02 Rad wrote: @Cheese Djo's english comes across as awkward like that. I can't see it as a scum tell. Next time you're interested in pointing out something like this, you should do it rather than letting someone else do it and then agreeing with them. On November 04 2012 06:02 Alsn wrote: Cheese, what's so important about that distinction? A townie has just as much of an interest in making sure people think they have town's best interest at heart as scum has in trying to emulate that. At most it feels like a null tell to me. The fact that he worded it awkwardly may be somewhat scummy(if you're supposing that he worded it awkwardly because he thinks about his actions differently than a townie would) but other than that the distinction seems like a pointless one to me. They say the same thing, they happened at the exact same time. Alsn has a similar mindset to Rad, and I don't think Rad is scum. Honestly, my gut feeling right now is that CC is scummy, but I don't really know why. It was just my gut reaction yesterday. I'm going to go read through his filter, but I'm sort of worried about confirmation bias lol. -_- Nobody else seems to really be worried about him, and I don't see why, so I may be on the wrong track. (Alsn, Clar, Debears, Rad [And me  ] town) (Djo is scummy seeming but it may just be his typing-style and mastery of language, Sylver is scummy as per my previous post, da0ud is afk) - as a summary of my current thoughts. I'll start looking at CC now ._. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Almost every single one of your posts has focused on Djo, ever since he accused you. Encouraging discussion on Djo, directly responding to Djo, answering other people here and there and bringing discussion back to Djo. Why haven't you voted him? Nobody seems to have talked about CC in depth besides Djo, and both of them are almost exclusively addressing each other. My problem with CC is that he seems content to lurk and poke holes in Djo's arguments, while not really commenting outside of that. Mr. Cheese~ I would like to see your opinions on everybody in this game so far, not just Djo. I don't know whether or not to think you're town or scum, but I've had an unsettling suspicion since early on, and I want to see you stop semi-lurking. You're active, you're able to contribute meaningfully, and people apparently heed your words because nobody has remotely looked into you besides Djo, who is scummy and receiving flak for it. I'm going to take a break from actively reading and re-reading the thread to go play some games and enjoy the weekend - if somebody has any questions for me, I should be checking the thread periodically and will be able to answer, but I'm not going to do any more filter reading until late this evening, prob ~10-11 PST. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 04 2012 07:58 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I'm semi-lurking, but I'm active. Holy contradiction batman. To clarify- I meant that you're clearly reading the thread actively, but you hadn't really had a tendency to comment on anything except things involving Djo. Active as in, at your computer. Semi-lurking as in, posting enough to not be called out for lurking. It was a bad word choice though. Thanks for the reads, that's what I was looking for. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 04 2012 07:59 sylverfyre wrote: @Obzy Why am I scummy to you? Do you have your own arguments, or are you sheeping onto debears? You've said three times that I look bad, but you haven't given any of your own reasons. Looks like sheeping to me. Do you really want me to go through the whole thread and pick out all the times that debears chain-posted oneliners? I think it's a waste of time. He's done it, he's not really doing it anymore, I'm satisfied as far as that is concerned. If you're so interested, look for yourself. Shit, if I'm your only scum read, why aren't you putting pressure on me? You entered the thread and immediately voted debears with reasoning that I wasn't sure about (disagreement with the parts of the filter that were meaningless fluff), and later unvoted upon being challenged - given how resistant a lot of people are to voting, unvoting due to pressure seemed out of place. I'm wary of putting pressure on you because I don't want to be wrong while feeling uncertain. If I'm going to be wrong, I want to at least have conviction in my reads, instead of guessing. If I thought that you were scum, rather than looking scummy and worth thinking about, I would have voted. If that makes any sense :0 | ||
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United States525 Posts
On November 04 2012 08:32 debears wrote: 180 on me - His 180 and sudden aggressiveness on my obsy post doesn't seem like it was his idea. It feels coached/coming from his partner (this point I would really like some input on from everyone) and it most definitely doesn't feel like a genuine change of suspicion about me Even if it was coached, although I thought we weren't supposed to discuss that sort of thing, what would make it mafia coached? It could be town-coached too. The 180 felt strange, but I don't think it implies mafia. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
(That isn't the case, luckily.) I've been suspicious of Sylver because he backed off under pressure. Why? If he wasn't willing to follow through, why did he vote? I'm worried about voting at all because I don't want to get it wrong and feel dumb. With so little conviction behind an accusation, it seemed like he was voting for you because it wouldn't be exceptionally controversial... if that makes sense? I may be misremembering, I don't want to reread the thread yet again at this moment lol >.<; Just was my gut feeling upon reading his original post. I've got misgivings with regards to Mr. CC, but he's answered that, somewhat. I think the argument between Rad and you(db) is a little... Hm. I don't know what to think of it, since it's largely revolving around a set of questions aimed towards myself. It's hard to think about it impartially, and it doesn't help that I think you're both town. Sort of unexpected for you two to argue. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
I'm currently reading from my last post made to the end of the thread after having just got up, but I'm going to go pick up breakfast at a restaurant, so I won't actually be posting for another hour or so. (Sorry for not getting on last night, I started playing a wii game and realized how much of an insane time-sink mafia has been on my weekend, I just went straight to bed rather than catch up.) Is the deadline now 4PM pacific time due to daylight savings coming into effect today? Or is it unchanged at 5PM? Sorry for the stupid question lol. Honestly, from where I'm at right now (a quick check reveals it's page 31), Djo does not look as scummy as he did before, I think his contributions look fairly strong. Da0ud's visibility also makes me feel better about him. I haven't seen CC yet, but I wasn't around either, so it doesn't change my opinion on him. Clarity looks significantly scummier than I had originally read, I really like Djo's case on him. When he asked each person pertinent[is this the right word] questions about their behavior, I thought it was a quite solid post - but as Djo pointed out, a lot of those points... weren't really followed up on. If there wasn't anything drawn from them, why bother posting them? (I haven't read the last several pages, so maybe I'll quickly learn :x) Sylver - your answer to me earlier makes sense, assuming you're (or were) feeling that debears was town. I will try to be here for the remainder of the day once I get back from breakfast. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Alsn, Rad, Dao, Djo, Debears- I think are town. ...I get unsettling feelings about CC but, once again, nobody seems to share them. So I'll drop them. It's not like I'm actually making a case or anything anyways, just a bad feeling;... I'm probably just being stupid. Out of Clar, Sylv, at least one of these two is scum IMO based on the arguments in the thread which I don't want to quote, my own suspicions, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if both were scum. There's a lot of suspicion on debears - who the hell is his scumbuddy if he's scum? I don't think it's Djo, it could be Mr. CC but nobody is bringing that up so that's an illegitimate point imho, I just don't see it. I don't like Clarity's case on him, Sylv's case looks to play off of the fact that both Djo and Deb look scummy - but I don't think they're scum. It would make sense for them to try to both target the same person, especially going off of Alsn's case, it's already a third of the votes. One thing that has been brought up a couple times is debears' attack on me. I don't see how that makes him scum. Honestly, to go on a side-tangent a little bit, I feel like I'm not playing well and this game has been taxing trying to keep up. I do not think this because of debears' post though, I think it because I'm analyzing myself and trying to think about the way people are playing relative to the way I am playing. The fact that debears made a post against me is one of the primary things that make me think he IS town. If he was mafia, he would point out how I'm sort of bad. That I haven't posted a proper scumhunting case, only my reads. I would be an easy target for a mislynch IMO, why would he not do so? The only reason I can think of is because he's dismissed me as scum based on my responses. Blah blah blah. I'm losing my train of thought and want to go do something else so I'll just say that I don't think he's scum and I don't want to vote him. If I'm going to narrow it down between Clar and Sylv: Clar looked a lot like Rad at first so I was fairly certain he is town - but I didn't like his absense, his lack of follow-through on the enforced questions to answer, and the cases from Djo and Deb are far more convincing than my concerns with Sylv early game. ##Vote Clarity_nl | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 05 2012 07:26 Alsn wrote: Anyone going to even consider Cheese or at least point out if I'm wrong about something? If you truly think Clarity was just blending in, then why should Cheese be excused? Clarity is at least pushing someone he has stated was his top scum read. Cheese just wants to wait for more information without even having to commit to a vote? Come on. I've been worried about Cheese, but nobody has seemed interested in grilling him. I don't really feel comfortable questioning people rapidly, my posting is too slow to keep up with a forum argument. I want to know who the two people he thinks are scum, and any neutral reads. (Honestly, I like lists, so I want him to list his town reads, too. But he's hinted at an aversion to lists so With regards to Clar's post just now - "I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1" - whyever not? You should be showing that you are town through your actions. Staying neutral is ridiculous. If you don't have an opinion whatsoever, you should have a reason for it- like, "My house caught fire and my dog died and I was kidnapped by terrorists and thusly I haven't been reading the thread at all so I have no opinions." If your opinion is that every single person looks towny or scummy, cool. Whatever. Judgment problems maybe, but at least it's honest. Not wanting to hold an opinion[being neutral] is what doesn't make any sense, unless you're afraid of being wrong. CC hasn't had anybody go after him, he's had a fairly soft impact on the direction that the thread has been taking. Why would he fear being wrong? He wouldn't necessarily be the one who was blamed. IMO, anyways. I don't feel comfortable voting CC today because nobody has really gone after him so it would feel very sudden, but I really would like to see people looking at him a bit more. He should appreciate that too, because it gives him a chance to open up and not look so "neutral"; and also prevents him from "avoiding attention and skating by". | ||
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United States525 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. CC wasn't specific in its meaning until db commented, and through that interaction, Clar immediately entered. The timing is just too awful imo, given how vague of a move it was. Marv's explanation may not have been expected by them. I've read up to debears' post saying "Ugh...." and will read onwards from that, the thread really jumped in the past 30 minutes-hour or so. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:23 Rad wrote: @obzy You around? Going to reconsider your vote or are you happy with it? I could, I think Cheese is also scum. Would you like me to place my vote there to consolidate instead of on Clarity? I intend to vote for both of them on day 1 and day 2 unless something changes. Sylver was the only other scummy looking individual to me, I was voting on Clar, and now CC emerges as a candidate. It looks fairly open-and-shut to me. I will not consider a vote on someone besides those two at this moment. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I seriously thought that way of claiming would get me confirmed town because nobody else knew the flavor for VT besides VT's xD. And I figured, as a confirmed town, that I'd get the NK because confirmed towns are a good target over going for a longshot blue snipe. Hey, Debears got what I was going for right away. I'll be afk until the green flip. That's absurd. ##Unvote ##Vote Mr. Cheesecake I will still vote for Clarity tomorrow. I think that your point here is ridiculous. Giving up is incredibly anti-town, and poor behavior. Up until right now, I have been stressed out and sort of unhappy about how much time this takes, but I won't ask for a replacement, I won't get modkilled, and I won't try to get myself mislynched just to avoid playing. Giving up, if you were town, is incredibly foul. You're not though, so it's okay. | ||
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Obzy
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Please vote. Getting modkilled would be such a let-down. | ||
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Obzy
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On November 05 2012 09:40 Rad wrote: Not going to get modkilled, Obzy. Alright ^^ It would just be such a damn shame if da0ud and yourself were modkilled for something like that. It's the sort of thing that would slip my mind if I hadn't been worrying about it. On November 05 2012 09:39 da0ud wrote: He looks like town giving up now. If he was town, he shouldn't give up. If he was town, he shouldn't've remained neutral. If he was town, he wouldn't've tried to point out, as Rad noticed, that he was specifically VT, when he wasn't going to be lynched today ANYWAYS. I think that it was entirely an attempt to try to get votes off of Clarity. (Which worked, if only for a single day.) Alternatively, if he flipped green, then Clarity was trying to take advantage of the sudden confusion to get himself off. So even if he's green, I still think Clarity is scum. But he is not green. [IMO] | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 05 2012 09:50 Rad wrote: If cheese was scum, why the hell would he have attempted that? He'd know at least scum got the VT PM, and could assume then that blues also got the VT PM. The only scum motivation there I can see is to try to out the VTs, but that seems like an awful trade (trade his own scum life for possible blue knowledge). He had no pressure on him. Seems like a stupid move, not a scum move to me now. That only makes sense if debears is his scum partner. I think he did so because he was attempting to remove pressure on Clarity, as I've already stated. (And, as I've said many times - I don't think debears is scum.) | ||
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If everybody wants to switch to Clarity, that's fine with me, but then I would vote for Cheese the next day, unless a verified cop could check him _AND_ Clarity flipped scum. If that makes sense | ||
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In the future, CC, try acting town-like instead of flavor-claiming in the last hour. GG | ||
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On November 05 2012 10:26 Rad wrote: @Obzy In my first game, when I voted off a fellow townie, I was devastated. You don't seem too worried. Do you really think it's appropriate to lecture cheese after his lynch? He made 1 major fuck up, and now that we know he's town, his story makes sense. That's all that got him lynched and didn't really have much to do with the rest of his game. What is there to be worried about? It sucks. I'm disappointed. I wish he had switched on to Clarity immediately, it would've been a more strategic move. His major fuck-up is unfortunate, but if he hadn't been scummy seeming, I don't think it would've spelled such a fast switch. I've been worried about him for awhile, so the sudden pressure felt like "Ah, at least, everybody is starting to see what I've seen all along." I still intend to vote for Clarity on Wednesday unless things change; I'm not sure what else there is to say about Mr. Cheesecake. If I could undo his lynch with knowledge of the future, I'd do it, but I'm not going to let it ruin my interest in this game and quit because we mislynched. ...All that said, my post looks like I'm kicking him while he's down. Sorry to him. I didn't mean for it to sound so harsh. | ||
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On November 06 2012 00:46 Rad wrote: @Obzy What do you think of Clarity's defense? Who else are you particularly suspicious of right now? Honestly, I'm not sure, regarding Clar's defense. On November 05 2012 21:01 Clarity_nl wrote:I asked marv about the flavor role PMs way before Cheese claimed. The reason I sounded so "condescending" (as you put it) is because I wanted him to shut up and explain why he claimed, and to try and stop others from claiming, but things went to shit fast. The reason I didn't say this earlier was because I had to check with marv if I was allowed to post this. I think Clar probably isn't VT. When I saw Cheese's "Regular Fapper" comment, I asked our hosts if it was acceptable to post something like that. (Role PM) The response led me to not put any stock in the fact it was claimed; that is to say, I couldn't draw solid conclusions from it, so I didn't look at it again. When Cheese kept pointing at it, it started looking suspicious. The only way Clar would ask Marv about the flavor role PMs before Cheese's claim is if he had multiple. Stopping others from claiming - well, everybody could've claimed. Every single person had the PM, apparently. If everyone claimed, we'd be back at square one with no additional information. I sympathize with his thoughts and agree with PMing the hosts and waiting for information, but I don't see why he would have asked Marv about anything before the role claim actually came into play. If he's blue, scum would have already picked up on this. If he's scum, then he's scum. I don't think it leads to him being VT, though. I like his defense, but I don't think it matches up with the above statements, so I'm not convinced. If he doesn't die N1, it doesn't really mean anything, either. He could be blue and was protected, he could be blue and scum specifically didn't target him to try to get a vote on him, he could be scum and thusly survived. Regarding other people - My scumteam before was Clar, Sylver, and CC as potential. CC obviously wasn't, that brings it to the first two. I still think that Rad and Alsn are town, da0ud seems more townish than not. [Ignoring myself of course :D], that leaves Djo and debears. Djo is going nuts on Clar, and honestly, it looks good to me. I've had a town read on debears all game, and that hasn't changed much. If Clarity (or Sylver), whoever is lynched, was not scum.. I guess my next thought would probably be deb just due to the number of people suspicious of him? I feel otherwise, but I could be wrong. I felt that CC was more scummy than not, and that was incorrect. So maybe I'm wrong about db town, too. I don't think so, though. I still want to vote for Clarity. | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:13 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Obzy The reason I asked marv before Cheese claiming was because I noticed what Cheese did. The OP Townie does not match with the PM townie. The PM townie flavor is in every PM. How do you conclude from this that I am blue or scum? Because whether or not the text matches in the OP compared to the PM doesn't matter. I'm certain that every single person noticed this, but nobody else (has mentioned) PM'd Marv specifically asking if the VT flavor text meant VT. It seemed fairly self-explanatory. And - I was under the impression that Cheese's claim was technically when he first put Regular Fapper at the end of his post; to him [as it turned out], that was a claim to all other VTs to take notice of that would not be recognized by blue or mafia. I don't agree that Cheese's actual claim was later- it was clear to him from the beginning. Don't try to convince me that you aren't scum, convince me(and everybody else) who is. | ||
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On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote: That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Hmmm. To me, the idea that other roles knew VT flavor didn't remotely cross my mind until it became a central issue, so it made no sense that you would've asked Marv about it. I'll think on it. Alsn and Rad feeling differently about you is making me worry lol. | ||
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I have a problem with mafia, in that I'm bad at detecting liars lol. I like assuming that everybody is being honest and telling the truth, and in a proper game, that's not possible. Your responses to me are answering my questions, which just makes me wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or if you're innocent and it's just shining through or something lol. The way you reacted to Cheese's statement feels.. legitimate? Upon rereading. What do you think of Sylver? If you're still around. For that matter, what does everyone think of Sylver? | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:07 Rad wrote: FoS Obzy FoS Djo partial FoS Sylver ? (I understand and indeed agree with Sylver, I'm okay with being uncertain on Djo if I'm going to assume that Clarity is town.) Do you have any questions for me? | ||
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Your point about thinking I am town makes sense from a mafia-me perspective, since I wouldn't want to kill somebody that had been supportive. Djo - I think he was implying that he was the better target, but mafia went after debears anyways. (That mafia thought db was blue, and Rad is not, that is.) Correct me if I'm mistaken though. | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:42 Obzy wrote: Your point about thinking I am town makes sense from a mafia-me perspective, since I wouldn't want to kill somebody that had been supportive. Oops, this looks stupid. I meant, your FoS makes sense if I am mafia because I wouldn't want to kill somebody that had been supportive.* (What is it, EBWOP?) | ||
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Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyre then. | ||
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On November 06 2012 11:19 Djodref wrote: @ Obzy Why would you assume that Clarity is town ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=56#1116 I asked him a couple questions here and got responses that I liked. At the very least, I think that Sylver is also scum, and if people want to not lynch Clarity today, I am okay with that. I don't think there's particular value in lynching a specific scum above any other, [unless I get annoyed and act irrationally], so I want to be able to think of two people that I would be okay with lynching at any point, and keeping a third suspect in case I'm wrong. We can not do a double-lynch today, so voting Sylver is fine. If Clarity slips up or is the only viable candidate going into tomorrow, we'll see at that point. If that makes any sense. ^^ On November 06 2012 11:20 Djodref wrote: EBWOP: DO NOT SHEEP, what if one of them is scum with Clarity and the other one is outright wrong !!! - I don't think I'm sheeping in voting Sylver, but if I am, I apologize =l I think I'd pointed out that my expected scumteam was Clarity Sylver with Cheese on the side; Cheese turned out to be town, I'm assuming Clarity is town, that leaves Sylver? | ||
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He said he'd be around for the day post and wasn't, but - that's just more of a note, and has absolutely nothing to do with my voting him. He made noise early in the game about a debears/djo (one of the above) as scum, particularly focusing debears. Looks at a scumteam of CC and debears during the role PM... stuff. Eventually switches his vote onto CC from debears, puts suspicion on Clarity [and db, of course]. On November 05 2012 10:01 sylverfyre wrote:If cheese flips town, it's clarity or debears. Probably both. It clearly isn't debears. He shows a strong town read on Rad, although I think that's fairly obvious, personally. (And now that I'm refreshing the last page to make sure I'm not missing something, he's shown up and redirects suspicion at Djo because debears flipped town.) I'm really a bit less certain what to think of this lol. If Clarity is town, and da0ud is town, it leaves Djo Sylv.. /shrug. Sylv's not addressing my vote on him at all, still. And apparently he just voted Djo too lol. If Djo/Sylv have a shootout, I'm okay with that at the moment, unless Clarity can be shown [by Rad or Alsn or da0ud, preferably] to have clear mafia signs. | ||
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On November 06 2012 15:02 da0ud wrote: @Obzy I have a hard time considering what you say seriously when you keep putting "lol" everywhere. Could you be more assertive ? I feel like you tell your thoughts but don't want to take any real positions. Not very townie behaviour. Push your reads please ! I was trying to. I voted Sylver, that was me attempting to push Sylver as a read and apparently I am just horrible at it because not a single person noticed or cared until now, at which point I'm told by you that it's not good enough. The lol is just how I type, I apologize for any confusion. I'll try to stop using it until I forget =l I had a strong Clar-is-scum read that got sort of shot down by doubts from Rad and Alsn, and not really being able to question adequately(apparently) earlier this morning.. Now there are votes on Clar and we're ignoring Sylv - ??? I don't understand. Until tomorrow afternoon (or maybe while I'm at work tomorrow), my vote is parked on Sylv and I think that other people should be voting Sylv too. If there's zero chance of a Sylv lynch because of lack of interest, lack of caring, lack of response to my attempt at a case from both other players and Sylv himself, I'll reconsider then, but seriously what the heck. On November 06 2012 14:36 Rad wrote:My read on clarity is town, djo. On November 06 2012 15:02 Rad wrote:##Vote Clarity I just don't get it. I'm not implying that Rad isn't town, it just astonishes me how the tide of opinion shifts, and in less than 30 minutes. This morning I would've been more than happy to vote Clarity, it was my intention to do so, and I feel like I was talked/intimidated out of it. Now, here we are again. | ||
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And Rad - I completely understand that you're voting Clarity to appease Djo and encourage him to scumhunt elsewhere, but if you don't legitimately think that Clarity is scum, I disagree with the fact that you are voting him... but I guess this early on in the day, it doesn't matter enormously. | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:38 sylverfyre wrote: Obzy I find strange, because it feels like he was actually MORE active during the night phase than day phase. You're voting me, but I get the feeling you're listening more to other arguments against me than making any of your own. I'm confused what to think of you until you make a case today. This post feels too much like a subtle "playing the newbie card" Regarding Night/Day phase - I expected to not be very active due to being at work, but if work is slow for me, I do a lot of reading; and there weren't as many people on so the thread was a lot slower. When the thread is slow enough, it feels like I can take my time to type out my posts without losing a hold of the conversation. And... I'm having doubts about voting you. Nobody feels suspicious or cares. It feels like CC again in a way, but CC flipped town. I'll remove the vote for now, because I think my reasoning is kind of stupid. I was thinking that if you were scum, the scumteam was Djo/you. If Djo is the jailkeeper [and I don't see any reason to disbelieve this unless another jailkeeper emerges], I have no idea who your scumbuddy is. All of that was based on "if Clarity is town"; comma, "who is left"? - Unless Djo can be shown to be lying or something, I think I'll go back to thinking blindly that Clarity was scum as I had been doing the other day pre-CC lynch. I will try to put together a case for Clarity later today, but if it feels sort of half-assed and empty like my case against you felt then I'm not sure what to think and will have to re-evaluate again. I wish debears had been able to post his case before dying. ^^; ##Unvote | ||
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On November 07 2012 06:24 Clarity_nl wrote: I think everyone in this game so far has said Obzy looks newb town. I agreed with them. But the more I look at his filter, the more uses of "I suck, I'm just a newbie" I find. This could be lack of confidence, but it's convenient, isn't it? I'm sure most of us here have read the XXX analysis thread by Ver, and if you haven't I recommend it. In this, Ver explains how town could have had an easy scum lynch on day 1, Misder. Ver pointed out that apologizing a lot, and claiming to be new/not smart enough/not fast enough to keep up makes no sense as town. If you are town, you do not discredit yourself. You want your argument to matter and you want people to take you seriously. Cheese even made a post about it: Let's count how many times he either apologizes, claims to be new or claims to have no good input. + Show Spoiler [Giant spoiler.] + On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote: K - This is in response to debears post asking about me. I may screw up the formatting but hopefully not - Yeah, I've been trying to read and refresh the thread regularly, I think I've been away from it for maybe an hour total since game start. 1)I've typed out a few posts that were a bit longer, but after re-reading, it didn't look like they did anything to advance town interests and the only thing they did was look spammy and unhelpful, so I've mostly been deleting them. I am, as mentioned, not really certain whether or not I'm judging things properly and taking a concrete stance on something that turns out to be stupid feels sort of dumb. No comment, it does move really fast. I didn't really want to call you out directly. You responded really strongly to Alsn's red font, and it seemed counterproductive - but stifling discussion is a problem; given that you've been the primary generator of discussion. 2)I don't have a problem with posting, I don't want to post meaninglessly. Writing about things that are actually useful and will help everybody is difficult, because when I look at what I've drafted it looks moronic and doesn't help anybody. Answering being directly called out is a lot easier, since I don't have to cast about for what to say, I just have to explain how I'm playing. I wanted the conversation to shift away from talking about Cheese using jokes or not. It was a meaningless thing to discuss. Pointing it out so early and then dwelling on it for so long meant that it isn't a good scumtell for Cheese, while also making him aware of the fact he was doing it (Assuming that it WAS a scumtell, it no longer is). That entire discussion was just a waste of time, so I would say that it makes sense that my post, pointing it out, was equally useless. I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. On November 03 2012 15:03 Obzy wrote: Alright, I'll check it out when I get a chance. 3)Trying to read like four of the newbie guides and everyone's filters lol ._.; and hitting refresh on this tab occasionally so I don't miss stuff. I suppose since I'm here- @Rad I just finished reading through your filter. It's almost depressing - I really appreciate how you're encouraging - but I haven't seen any cases. MLG is a valid excuse IMHO, tomorrow I would also like to see some reads on players from you. I really want you to be town, but I don't know if there's anything backing up you being town any more than there is ME being town. ^^; I will be sure to take a look regarding dembearz, though - that filter is going to be sort of miserable to read haha :0 On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote: Hm. Okay. I've been looking at FoS the same way as a vote. Assuming people intend to vote the way they are suspicious, I didn't really think there was a difference; letting the mod keep track makes an amount of sense, though. @Cheese 4>:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: That sounds like the sort of thing I would do. Bringing up the not using newbness as an excuse without calling me out specifically (as the only player who was not participating in the previous game) and then 5)pointing out a scumtell based on inexperience looks like a trap. It may be valid, but combined with the earlier statement, there doesn't really seem to be an answer besides inexperienced town and scum, and you've already indicated that inexperienced town is unacceptable. Why wouldn't you just vote? FoS Mr. Cheese. @Djo Notes: ignores deb/Als argument, policy discussion, mechanics discussion, argument with Cheesecake. If I didn't dislike CC's argument, I'd be a little more doubtful, but... I do dislike it. I think part of the problem for Djo is I have a hard time reading some of his sentences, so it's a little harder to follow his exact train of thought lol. Given that I'm suspicious of CC, I don't have a real problem with Djo at this time. @debears [I seriously clicked your filter and cringed before realizing it's 4 pages, not 40.] (Also, @sylver..) However I may have mentioned FoS vs vote confusion at the top of this post that I wrote like 30 minutes ago, I really don't like the vote on debears at all. If I'm wrong, fucking bummer, but debears is driving conversation. His filter's not easy to read, but the content is useful to Me, at least. I wish I wasn't getting attacked har har, but the activeness in making me respond to stop lurking is a townie move IMHO. If he was mafia, he would've let me continue happily lurking and reading to my heart's content and then blasted me in a day, rather than trying to get me to start contributing early on. For god's sake, it had been less than 6 hours from the start of the game, you hadn't even appeared yet, there were people with only a few words and he writes up a post designed to get me to contribute? That definitely feels townie to me. I don't see how you could come to the opposite conclusion. Some (Maybe even a lot!) of the filter is pretty pointless and could've gone unsaid. The parts that DID go said are, I think, the best in the thread. If he didn't have quality bits in the filter along with the spam I'd think differently but the quality parts look solid. I definitely think he's town at the moment. You haven't interacted with anybody besides Rad and myself, and your first post comes in and blasts debears? @da0ud What the hell dude, get in here and post >_> 6)You can't do worse than me ffs I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- 7)And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. The above is all in page 1 of his filter. At this point I will skip a couple of posts, please looks at them yourselves, but you'll find one of these in almost every one of his posts. So let's look at some on page 3 (his last page) On November 06 2012 04:45 Obzy wrote: It does. 8)I have a problem with mafia, in that I'm bad at detecting liars lol. I like assuming that everybody is being honest and telling the truth, and in a proper game, that's not possible. Your responses to me are answering my questions, which just makes me wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or if you're innocent and it's just shining through or something lol. The way you reacted to Cheese's statement feels.. legitimate? Upon rereading. What do you think of Sylver? If you're still around. For that matter, what does everyone think of Sylver? On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote: Hm. 9)I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. 10)I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyre then. Is this really someone's attitude coming into a mafia game? Let's compare it to his pregame: Hmmm... it seems not. He seemed genuinely excited to play, so why the change of heart? He's even claimed he doesn't want to play anymore a couple of times. Again, this is all very convenient, and the reason that I now believe Obzy is Mafia Not convinced? How about this: Why would Obzy care about blending in if he was town? He wouldn't. He also made a couple of posts stating that he was lurking, like X Y and Z. Whereas I did not consider myself to be lurking, he did yet didn't change his posting behaviour: My final point is this post: In this post he proclaims he's close to giving up, he barely cares. He implies he won't be posting as much and he hasn't. Looking at a singular post of his, it seems reasonable. He's not too confident but he's trying, right? But when you look at the bigger picture. When you look at the fact that there were so many "newb claims" that I didn't even list them all, when you compare his behaviour in the pregame to his behaviour now, I find it hard to believe he isn't just subtly playing the newb card. Obzy is Mafia. Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this. People bringing me up offhandedly but not asking any questions or pointing any fingers is a little.. well, I just sort of go "Oh well, it's inevitable I guess." I'll try to speak on some of these points, though - Of course it's my attitude when playing a mafia game. I lack confidence, that much is obvious. My pointing it out constantly is pretty pointless - I apologize for that. I don't really get how pregame matters, and given that that's supposedly the main reason you think I'm mafia (combined with my disheartened-ness and lack of determination), I disagree with your assumption. My blending-in comment is due to somebody bringing up the fact I had been blending in, when I thought I had done a rather poor job of precisely that, along with the fact that blending in is pointless. I pointed that out literally one sentence after your colored one. If you'd prefer I openly play the newb card, I could do that too =l But I'm pretty sure everybody has already come to a conclusion that I'm not the most experienced player here. Basing your argument largely off of my interest pregame to my lack-of-confidence and realization that "this game takes WAY more than 20-30 minutes a day of typing and 1 hour a day of reading to play even remotely-properly" makes no sense. (With regards to sort of not wanting to play - Eh. Yeah? I just don't want to let town down by asking for a replacement because I don't want to invest the time, or literally not reading the thread and voting randomly, or ruining the game in a similar fashion.) I feel like I have a responsibility to try to help town, and getting mislynched is pretty much the best way I could ruin that. That specifically is why I was mad at Cheese. (I shouldn't've berated him after he flipped town, I still feel bad about and apologize again to him for that. My tone was improper.) With that said though, he DID get mislynched. It would be better for somebody to literally have made a single post (as a townie) and not gotten mislynched than to be active, be getting pushed, and then give up and stop trying. He began trying shortly after the initial wave of frustration that I think he experienced, which is more commendable than literally rolling over and dying with something along the lines of "I'm green and you guys are gonna regret this one." A line like that is self-serving and lets one go "I told you so~" but it doesn't help town. Helping town is landing a proper lynch. So even though I lack confidence, feel that I'm bad and have been pointing it out, and have had diminished interest as the true workload of this game has become more clear, I'm not going to let you mislynch me. As I mentioned earlier, I'll try to look through Clarity again later today, but for now, ##Vote Clarity_nl | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:03 Clarity_nl wrote: How am I supposed to take this other than you're glad it was me who made a case on you, because right now I'm probably the least credible active player. Your whole "I feel defeated but I will not be defeated!" attitude makes no sense to me. I'm glad you are posting a case on me, specifically. Heh. Being called out in general gives a clear indication that my posting will be listened to when I respond, but getting called out by you makes my trust of Djo's JK claim increase, since he was been beating his head against you for hours this morning. You posting a case that I know is false makes me believe more in his case, which helps me trust his claim and innocence. A team composed of him and Sylver was only something I mused about if you were town. Maybe you're town and your case against me is just flat-out incorrect, you're just misguided. That's possible. But I think you think that too; you didn't vote. You clearly say "Obzy is Mafia" in fancy red highlighting and you do not vote. >_> | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:16 Clarity_nl wrote: ##Vote Obzy There are still 27 hours until lynch, but fine, there you go. If my case is incorrect, you should be able to point out why. B. What Not to Post Don’t argue with your target. They are never going to agree with you, so you are just taking up space. If it appears that your target is convincing the town not to vote for them, re-evaluate. If you are still confident in your analysis, focus on convincing the other townies. You want to intimidate your target and convince the town, not the other way around. The quote doesn't _quite_ fit, it's more of advice to you rather than me stating my reasoning, but- I have posted my response to your case. I don't need to convince you. I'm voting for you! I think you're scum! Why would you listen to me trying to refute your case again, with different words? If other people have specific questions, they can ask me at any point, and I will answer to the best of my ability. | ||
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Suddenly so confident, huh. Well, I am confident that I'm town. That's not a controversial stance that I can be yelled at for being wrong on. Combined with the flips of CC and db, being town is the only fact I possess. I feel quite enormously confident about that indeed. | ||
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Rad, do you legitimately think that Djo's claim is fake? Or are you saying that your two targets are Sylver and myself? (Which is fine, I'm writing my Clar case to help convince you otherwise.) Because I see no reason to disbelieve Djo atm. | ||
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But he didn't vote? I don't like the word "scumslip", but voting sure is a thing to forget in your case >_>; IMO. He even took the time for nice formatting and font coloring. My wording above (that you quoted) is poor, I noticed it after posting but didn't really want to post an EBWOP. I definitely don't think Clarity is town due to the lack of voting, I meant to show that he seemed insincere in calling me Mafia since he didn't actually post a vote. If that makes sense ^^ | ||
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 I don't want to retype it; but basically, I don't really understand why you'd want me to rationally discuss with Clarity when you intend to lynch him. I'm gonna post what I wrote so far (It's a long filter analysis up until about where Djo starts attacking Clarity).+ Show Spoiler + Okay so I'm typing this in a text file so if the formatting is stupid I apologize in advance lol. (sorry for the lol, da0ud ^^) With regards to Clarity and why he is scum: I am going to spoiler this because I'm basically just going through his filter point by point and taking things that I can comment on. + Show Spoiler + I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese All three of these people are town. Just as a side note. (If somebody would like my thoughts on Djo's JK claim, I can deliver.) Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver. I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? This was in response to debears asking Clar if anything stood out as weird - I don't really think it's particularly important, but I thought it funny that he commented he didn't think I was useless at that time period. [With regards to Clar's list of reads] Considered Djo slightly scum, null on deb, null on Cheese. Slightly town on myself. So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Cool, so Alsn was down with debears and Djo. Mental note I guess. Cautions Rad about the perils of not having any reads - Ehn Comments at 16:22 Nov4 that he'll be making a case (or multiple) that day, to Djo. Specifically namedrops Hapa and comments he'll ignore the advice people follow, taking issue with its quality. (Apologizes later.) (In a response to Djo): On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. I'll have to look and see if he pushes Sylver at all. He mentions Cheese not looking scummy ~16ish hours before the deadline. Posts a defense from debears' post. On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote: If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 Okay so apparently he had planned on posting a case on Djo today. That obviously will not occur unless da0ud claims JK or something, but w/e. I find the line "If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless" somewhat amusing; as a side note - I don't really know if he's talking about Djo or just in general. He posts a case on debears, that looks fairly legitimate if the knowledge that debears was VT didn't exist. (Votes DB at that time) - When debears asks him to post his case on Djo, he chooses not to, largely because he intends to on Day 2 or if he is going to be lynched. He (afterwards) mentions that he doesn't want to post a case on Djo if Djo won't be there to defend himself - I really don't like this. Why would you care if the person wasn't around to defend themselves if you think they're scum? And if you don't think they're scum, why would you post a case on them? I guess he can have points for Chivalry, but I think that he didn't want to post a case because he knew Djo was town. Clar has some commentary on how staying neutral isn't bad D1, I disagree with this, but I've already covered that in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=40#785 (It happens to be the one that I mention not feeling comfortable about voting CC - this is still taking place before debears picks up that CC is trying to claim.) Then the CC claim stuff - By this point, I had voted Clar largely due to process of elimination. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=37#730 I liked Djo and debears' cases, I didn't like Clarity's case on debears, and between Clar and Sylv, I voted Clar. (I largely got my town read on db _because_ he hadn't gone and pointed out that I was sort of shitty and thus Mafia, despite having questioned me.) After CC's claim, Clarity mentioned that assumptions couldn't be made based on host behavior. This didn't make sense to me unless he was blue or scum, which he addressed later- I couldn't really find fault with that at the time, it seemed like he had just been thinking more than I had if he was VT yet asked about the VT flavor. He brings up a quote of mine telling him to convince me who _is_ scum, rather than trying to convince me that he isn't- he basically says that he's too busy defending himself to push his scumreads. On November 05 2012 09:28 Clarity_nl wrote: I think if Cheese flips red there's no way debears is scum.... 9 player mafia and scum busses eachother day 1? No way. Given that he'd posted a case on DB, this looks relevant; but if he knew Cheese had no chance of flipping red, it doesn't hurt the fact he's only actually made a case on debears (up until this point) at all. Gets angry at CC for not defending himself (I concur with this) but then votes him for his defense being WIFOM, over his scumread of debears? _And then says, On November 05 2012 09:42 Clarity_nl wrote: Wait, so you're voting debears to save yourself when you're VT? What the hell. Debears was his scumread and vote up until this point, and when CC changes his vote to be on Debears, he questions it. Why why why. There should be zero confusion if CC really was VT, given that he is basically agreeing with what Clarity had assumed up until this point; but once Clarity switches, he questions it. Clar mentions that the logical thing to do would be to jump on him to save himself, instead of Djo, then debears, then him. Djo is town, debears is town, ??? The comment looks like it's trying to indicate that "Clarity must be town, CC did not considering jumping onto him at first" to me. I will try to continue this later tonight, but I'm done for the moment. I'm going to catch up a few posts in the thread and then be afk for a couple of hours (until my work day ends, I get home, and I finish eating dinner) - I wanted to get my point-by-point thoughts to Alsn before he had to go to sleep. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
If you aren't scum, and I'm not scum, and Djo isn't scum, then who do you think is our scumteam? I realize you said you didn't know, Sylver maybe, etc - Just go under the assumption that the three of us are not scum. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
I know I'm not scum. My defense to Clarity's argument, if I am going to be completely honest, comes to this: I lack motivation to play this game. I wanted to play a game so that I wouldn't feel guilty /obsing other mafia games, as over the past month or so, I've realized this subforum existed and started actively reading. My posts lack content and commitment and conviction and are sheepy because I don't want to put in the time to post, I just want to read and have the game develop and at the end of it be able to say "see look I played too". Sheeping is basically like reading - I get to see what other people think, judge my own reaction to it, look at other peoples' reactions, and go with what feels right. I've been asked to write cases or do research or find scumreads or etcs off and on all game, and pretty much my response has been to try, but suck at it, then get discouraged and not actually think my reads are good and then stop. So why bother still playing if I don't really care? I'd feel bad if my team, town, lost because of my apathy. That's really about it. If you are also town, Clarity, then push one of those two people enough that they are more appealing than voting you. If you aren't town, then whatever, my vote will stay on you, cool. That's fine too. I'm not going to try to post the rest of my thoughts on you like I intended to this afternoon; I got too frustrated and got no irl work done and this game, even though it's probably the most important thing I've done in the four? days that we've played it, really shouldn't be comparing to IRL. To everyone else- if you think that being bad is worth a vote, then by all means, I think you should vote me. But if you want to win the damn game and hit mafia, then wasting time on me is pointless. I'll answer questions if people have any but I think I'm fucking done reading filters and trying to appease people by making shitty cases that suck and so on and so forth. My apologies ^^ I just want to /obs games in the future lol, I don't intend to play again due to the time commitment, but it's been a learning experience and I'm glad I did it. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 07 2012 11:24 Djodref wrote: @ Obzy It's ok this game is hard. It requires a great investment. I feel that your post is honest and sincere. If you think you can trust me, please sheep my vote on Clarity Djo - I'm 100% certain that you are town, I am not 100% sure you're right on Clarity. But for now, he's where my vote sits  | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:56 Rad wrote: Some quick thoughts. If clarity flips blue, 100% djo scum. If he flips red, 100% djo blue, alsn blue. Is there a link to 100% djo partner then if clarity flips blue? Alsn could be second cop with him, and probably is since there are no more blue claims. Rad, even IF Clarity DID flip blue, somehow - it doesn't say anything about Djo's alignment. If he was scum and fakeclaimed when he did, it would've been an enormous risk to push through a Clarity mislynch. Djo had been pushing Clarity like absolute mad up until that point already, he claimed to: #1- heighten his credibility #2- take away pressure from the blue hunting that you and Clar were talking to him about; such as when he said he didn't care if he outed blues to kill mafia, and then properly outed himself to get the Clar lynch. If he was dead certain Clarity was scum at that time, his actions show he was willing to die N2 to push the D2 lynch through. That would be absolutely insane to do as scum, it relies on a large number of assumptions and hopes, and if Clarity flipped blue, (IF IF IF), it would merely mean that Djo was wrong, not that he blatantly lied. Honestly, even bringing up Djo as scum as an assumption if Clarity were to flip blue is sort of ridiculous. If he isn't killed in the next few nights, it would look rather suspicious, but until then, I don't think that it would be as simple a matter as "Clar blue = Djo scum". Honestly, assuming two cops would be much more of a stretch than Djo being scum, IMHO, but Alsn's claim is far, far better than Clarity's. @Clarity Lets look at his motive, the circumstances, if it's believable (breadcrumbs), and if it would be wise to fakeclaim here: His motive is to not get lynched by claiming blue. That much is pretty clear. The circumstances - Well, he's going to get lynched. It's a very convenient claim to pull out at this point. Is it believable? His breadcrumb does not exist, he supposedly got roleblocked so he also doesn't have a read. I don't think that's very believable, personally. Is it wise to fakeclaim here? Well, he could get counterclaimed, and Djo has already pointed out that he was fairly certain Clar wasn't blue. So although it's not really particularly wise to fakeclaim, I think he's desperate. @Alsn Same steps. The motive behind claiming is to counterclaim Clarity. Completely reasonable. The circumstances - really, they're the same as the above. Is it believable? - If he's counterclaiming Clarity as a cop and Clarity flips blue, Alsn is practically confirmed blue unless it's an incredibly unlikely scenario of having multiple cops in a 9 person game. His breadcrumb is significantly more believable, breadcrumbing that he was investigating me but received no notification due to Djo jailing him, and also breadcrumbing his actual role - much, much more believable than Clarity. Is it wise to fakeclaim here? NO NO NO NO NO IT WOULD BE MORONIC DING DING DING. Rad, I think that Sylver is probably our second scum, but trying to cast suspicion on the two blues that are, IMO, confirmed as per the above reasoning - That's just ridiculous. Alsn and Djo are confirmed blues IMO, I am VT(there was some doubt about whether or not I was legitimately claiming this or just claiming a town bias - VT is correct), Clarity is scum, that leaves Sylver, da0ud, and you. I think da0ud is town because of his post here, I also agree with his thinking that it's Clar/Sylv; Clar/Rad in that order. It's possible that da0ud is the last scum, but- it's possible that Djo is the bravest mafia player ever and fakeclaimed to shove through a Clarity lynch knowing that it was wrong with the knowledge that other claims would pretty much instantly doom him with confirmation bias the entire way and suspicions around him. It's just incredibly unlikely. (I don't intend to post much/if at all beyond this until the flip unless things go absolutely nuts and turned on their head - like, three more blueclaims nuts or something). I'm obviously satisfied with my vote on Clarity at the moment, and I think that Rad and Sylver should take a good look at each other, because one of them is scum. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
5 town, 1 scum Djo and Alsn are confirmed[or as good as confirmed] JK and cop each person knows that they are VT or scum, I know I'm VT so I will use myself as the example. Scum can just ignore this post xD 3 confirmed town (I am confirmed to myself) vs 1 scum - Other town will be T1 and T2. ...actually this is way too long lol there's a lot of possibilities and lots of if's it basically comes down to, I don't think there is an optimal strategy. I'll post some thoughts: Djo JKs Sylv, Alsn checks Sylv, comes back scum and DJo dies because Sylv was scum RB. He's not confirmed though - if Rad was framer and framed Sylv and killed Djo, the checks mean nothing. Same goes if the opposite. So stacking on a potential frame target isn't really worth it, it doesn't confirm anything. If Djo JKs the framer, he can't frame or kill anybody, so Alsn's check (if it is on a different target) will come back town. If it comes back scum, it either means scum held KP to get a mischeck, or he landed the check properly - in this case, I think that we can all vote for a No-Lynch and repeat the process until Alsn gets town checks and slowly confirms every member (this is under the assumption that KP is being held). In short, if scum holds KP, we should not vote and we will win without issue. Obviously, if somebody votes and stays on a target, that person is scum, and we lynch them one day afterwards to ascertain that they were not just a townie playing poorly. (We will win even if a mislynch occurs. KP being held just gives us more checks, and it's not possible for a town-cop-check return to mean scum hiding anymore - if it shows town, then they ARE town.) So scum holding KP doesn't work, the game could just be stalled out forever >.> Under that assumption, if there is no kill, then the JK target is the scum. If Alsn gets no check back and no kill occurs, it means that the JK target was not scum and was holding KP. So - if JK target roleblocks Djo, he can kill either Alsn or Djo without repercussions - really, there's nothing we can do about this. If Djo targets the wrong person, he can roleblock Alsn and kill anybody without repercussions as well. Blah blah blah ^^ This is incredibly long and the possibilities are vast. My summary - I think we should stick to our reads and not worry about optimal blue-usage strategy, but if there is no kill, we can discuss it then. If there is no kill and Alsn is roleblocked, it means JK was targetting the wrong person (I think. If JK jails Roleblocker, can the scum RB still RB?) and scum held KP. If there is no kill and Alsn can get a town check, we can repeat this indefinitely - so scum should just give up >.> The game would take forever but inevitably end in our victory and would be a tremendous pain so it'd be nice if under those circumstances scum just conceded defeat. There are too many possibilities to actually pick out an optimal scenario. I am in favor of (currently) lynching Sylv, then Rad. If scum is da0ud under those circumstances, we lose. If not, we win. If Alsn manages to get a town check on one of those three (or myself I guess, approaching it from a different angle,) then we will win for certain. As a result I expect Alsn to die tonight, unless scum is framer and Djo roleblocks him properly. Too many possibilities, Blues should just do what they think is best and state what they did before the night ends, but I intend to vote Sylv > Rad lol. if scum is da0ud, hopefully Alsn is able to confirm one of the three as town, but if a scum result is returned, it is not indicative of anything, due to how many possibilities there are lol. o_O Suuuuuper complicated not knowing if we have a RB or a framer so they must, as a result, be both. I don't think there's an enormous amount that we can discuss about it haha :X Just trust our blues. It would be best to continue in the way we have been IMO :0 If anybody has a magical solution to how blues should be best optimized, then we should, of course, do it but I don't see one.(sheesh this post is super long and kinda pointless in the end) | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Are you down with a Sylv lynch tomorrow? Because I'm pretty sure that's the game plan atm. The alternative is you, afaik. On November 08 2012 11:50 Rad wrote:I did reconsider. I had to throw out all my thoughts about him being VT, but like I said, there was a moment during the cheese chaos that I thought he might be blue. Also, scum clarity NOT at least attempting to ride on my VT story didn't make sense to me. The cop claim was like... what, why would he do that? Is he really cop? So, I held a little hope that he would flip blue and was spending my time thinking about who was the scum if he did (was thinking you and obzy). Why in the world would you ever hope that somebody flipped blue, if you are town? That very nearly makes me want to vote you first, but I think you just misspoke, rather than it being a scumslip. I think that the depth of your backing of Clarity would be too... Hmmm. I don't think it would make a lot of sense as scum. It's certainly possible, but I'd prefer a Sylv lynch tomorrow. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:32 Rad wrote: @Obzy Because I'd be happier with djo being wrong and me being right If clarity flipped blue, you and djo are scum (in my head). That sounds more fun, and still gets town the win, cause I would have tunneled the shit out of both of you. Do you realize you got town confirmation with everyone just because of your claim that you didn't really want to play anymore? Actually da0ud's reaction to that made me really suspicious of him. I get shit on like I'm potential scum even though my story and actions line up perfectly throughout the entire game? Think I'm a scum mastermind after 1 game (in which I was town)? I don't know what to think about sylver atm. I also think it probably doesn't matter because he'll be lynched no matter what. And if it's not him, it's me, so why bother thinking about him (you guys are going to take anything I find as potential scum pushing your opinions, and I think everyone here already knows I'm not great at reads, so it's not like I'm going to find anything reading sylver's filters all day). I'm probably going to think more about who's scum if he's not cause that's way more interesting to me. That sort of thing might save us the game if he flips town, cause then it's all eyes on me and I'll have to convince myself out of it to get town the win. If you lynch me, better make a backup plan, cause I'm flipping mfing VT. Scum should NK me or sylver (if sylver's not scum) to make this shit super interesting and at least end on a fun note ^^ I guess that makes sense. I pointed out how if clarity flipped blue, it doesn't say anything about Djo, but it would make me look bad; that's certainly true. Do I realize I'm confirmed town? Of course o_O I've felt a lot better since making my post; I don't have to worry myself half to death, and we hit scum properly today so I'm happy. My only worry is that if we mislynch twice in a row (Like - if da0ud is scum, and we go Sylv-->you, hypothetically) that it'd be bad obviously, but strategy with blues can't resolve this (aka for the next 24 hours during this night period), and there's no point in worrying if it's between you/da0ud[unlikely imo] until the unlikely (IMO~) scenario that Sylv flips town. I liked da0ud's reaction to the events that had occurred. I think that the slight language difficulty put me at ease a bit, like - how could he be lying while still typing that way? His post literally brought a smile to my face as I was reading it. It felt too genuine, and that's all my own defense really was - honesty and being genuine. I don't want you to be scum, and I think Sylv is, but there are only six people left. I can't blame you for wanting the game to turn out a different way while still having a town victory, but I am going to be content with merely having a town victory (period). I suppose I shouldn't be thinking about contingency plans for two days ahead, I should just think about tomorrow. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, and apologize. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
Rad - I respect your play. I know I'm town. Taking this into account, I wouldn't put it past you to play so excellently as to be able to speak your above piece in a convincing manner ^^ Although I'm a bit too lazy to do this myself if prompted; if you feel like you are going to be lynched and your lynch would cause town to lose, your only real choice is to convince Me that da0ud is the last scum. Here's why: Presumably, scum is going to kill a blue tonight. Tomorrow, Sylv will be lynched. Assuming Sylv is not scum, the remaining blue will die the next night. This will leave me, you, and da0ud. I'm not scum, so if you're trying to make a case on me at that point and you are town, we lose. da0ud is going to vote you. I am going to vote you. The only thing that would change this situation is if da0ud was the scum, and you pull together a nail-biting case that absolutely and completely convinces me. I don't expect you to do it, because I think da0ud is 100% town. However, if you are the last scum, that's your only choice. (Now that I've brought it up, it really isn't a choice ^_^ We'll see it coming.) If you don't think da0ud is scum, and you yourself are not scum, then Sylv is scum. The end. There really is no reason thinking further unless you want to entertain the possibility that I am lying, or that our blues are lying - these may be fun mental exercises, but they will not lead to a plausible end-game scenario worth thinking about. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
It is ridiculously emotional and faking it would be insanely hard. Also, he took me at my word immediately based on my freaking out lol.He feels trustworthy =l I really can't justify it a whole lot more than that. da0ud just feels ridiculously genuine and I've read his response on page 75 like ten times. He doesn't even bother mentioning Alsn - like, "OBVIOUSLY Alsn is town, why bring it up !?" - is the feeling I get. And indeed, Alsn is town. He's reading me solidly town, and I know he's right. If Rad brought a truly stellar case against him in LYLO with the three of us, I would consider reconsidering - but... I honestly don't really see that happening. (Sylver should flip scum, anyways.) Is that good enough? ^^ Hehe. | ||
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Obzy
United States525 Posts
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Obzy
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I have a few specific comments to make: Djo, your posting rate was a pleasure and (IMO) helped enormously with town's (my) confidence in reads. kudos ^^ [props to dead debears for the same reason ]Mr CC: :c I really do apologize for my rudeness after flip lol, it was out of place and impolite. Sorry! Hapa: 1 million mafia-dollars for you, sir - I harassed Hapa with no less than 19 PMs and received quick and thought-guiding responses to each of them; if anybody playing town ever reads this [when not playing this game, but is interested in a newbie mafia game,] - TALK TO YOUR COACHES! Incredibly, incredibly helpful. I don't know what to say about my flipout post, besides that I was being honest :x The fact it removed suspicion from me so thoroughly was an enormous relief lol. It would've been interesting if everybody had known VT flavor from an early point; Clarity almost certainly would've been lynched D1, but it's impossible to say where town would've gone from there, IMO. Thanks to our hosts for being prompt with answers, the humorous flavor, and their time investiture! Thanks to everybody for playing! :D I don't know if I intend to play again ^^;;; Very, very stressful. Saturday afternoon, an irl friend asked me (we have a LAN-room type thing) if I was going to be reading my forum game all day - I'd probably put 12 hours or so into it at that point, with only a handful of actual posts. It would be interesting to see faster games, although I'd imagine they'd seem incredibly hectic in comparison - I'll definitely be in the /obs threads though! ((( Hehe. I did have a hearty chuckle at some of your posts, the lynch on you was obviously far too fast in retrospect, and nobody (well, not I~) could've seen the VT flavor being known to more than just us VTs. :xWith regards to Clar and Sylv - WP ^^ I had fun, I appreciate Sylv conceding hehe. I don't think he was in a winnable scenario, so I think it's a sign of good sportsmanship. I look forward to watching you guys (if you play again, Sylv~) as townies as well! Thanks everybody~ (and debears, it's Obzy not Obsy >:0!) | ||
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