I would like to play this game but I don't think I'll be able to play two games at the same time
/obs please ^^
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
Djodref
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I would like to play this game but I don't think I'll be able to play two games at the same time /obs please ^^ | ||
Djodref
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mmm no more obsing, I want /in I hope that debears rolls town so I can hard tunnel him debears <3 ! | ||
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Djo town / Debears town I'm gonna end up tunneling you for stupid WIFOM reasons Djo town / Debears town I'm getting lucky and I lynch you for stupid WIFOM reasons Djo scum / Debears town According to my town meta, I tunnel you for stupid WIFOM reasons Djo scum / Debears scum I attempt to bus you using stupid WIFOM reasons | ||
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Anyway it should end up the same Da0ud I recommend you to read some guides, you can find the links in the OP | ||
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Here it is 9am and I hope it is going to stay like this | ||
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My other game has just finished so I'm going to concentrate only on this one as soon as it starts I'm going to be busy at work this week but I guess it's going to be fine when the last players are going to join. | ||
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We are full ! | ||
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And please please please keep the deadline at 9am KST ^^ | ||
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By the way, I'm not planning to use the newbie card in this game. Please lynch me if I do it again | ||
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Please start a last minute counter bandwagon on Alsn at the end of D1 | ||
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On October 25 2012 09:47 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ "Uncle" Dan I am of the opinion that inactive players are a good candidate for lynching. There is too much mystery involved with someone whose only contribution to the thread is nonexistent. In regards to the noobie-card policy: I have to say that claiming inexperience is a terrible defense against any accusation. Djo in the last newbie game made several references to him being a noob (and being town), and it only served to make him seem suspicious to other players. You are sure taking lurker policy lynch seriously. Would you explain us at which point suspicious players become better lynch candidates than inactive players ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 09:06 debears wrote: Welcome everyone!!!! Been waiting for this for a while!!! A few things I'd like to know from everyone. 1) How many games have you played in? 2) How many have you observed seriously? 3)Will you be normally around for lynch? For me 1) 2 games 2) 3/4 3) Yes I will - except this friday (most likely. I play baseball for my college and we have a game friday night. don't know for sure how long it will go) Look forward to hearing from all of you. Let's get this rolllinngggg!!!!!! I'm going to give the links to my two previous games for everyone to be able to see how playing the newbie card can get people suspicious of you as town and helps you winning as scum. 1)2 games as well -Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII as cop - Looney Lynching Mini Mafia as mafia pardoner 2)I've more solo read than obsed, 5 games I would say 3)Yes | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:30 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 09:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 09:47 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ "Uncle" Dan I am of the opinion that inactive players are a good candidate for lynching. There is too much mystery involved with someone whose only contribution to the thread is nonexistent. In regards to the noobie-card policy: I have to say that claiming inexperience is a terrible defense against any accusation. Djo in the last newbie game made several references to him being a noob (and being town), and it only served to make him seem suspicious to other players. You are sure taking lurker policy lynch seriously. Would you explain us at which point suspicious players become better lynch candidates than inactive players ? Djo, why did you suddenly drop this after cheesecake responded? Also, why did you interpret his post as taking lurker policy "so seriously" when he was respondjng to a question? @debears The part I've bolded in Cheese's post was a comment about dandel's post you have picked on. It was not related to the part where he was answering your questions. He didn't mention any other good candidates for lynching than inactive players so I thought he wanted to lynch based on lurker policy lynch today. But he has clarified his position since then. | ||
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Plus, if you are town and you are not confident, people are going to feel it through your posts and are going to become suspicious about you. We have to be assertive and for this, we have to be confident in our ability to find scum. I know it looks difficult at first but don't forget that scum players are likely to be as inexperienced as you in this game. | ||
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Debears solved us the game last time (NMM XVIII) with his case on SDM, the last mafia player we had to find. He was going to be mislynched but he didn't gave up and was still looking for the last mafia while he had everyone against him. It's important to believe in your ability to find the mafia. If not, you are just going to look desperate if people start a bandwagon against you. Also it is going to reduce your tendency to sheep and I think that sheeping happens a lot in the newbie games although it is really bad for town. | ||
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Also I like DarthPunk style with his early heavy pressure. Pretty newbie scums can slip very easy, kush or not kush. Plus I had some difficulties in my last mafia games to post properly when people where directly pressure me. | ||
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On October 25 2012 13:27 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 13:23 Djodref wrote: I've realized that in my last newbie game. Not being confident led me to write wish-washy posts and it is not good for general town mentality. Also I like DarthPunk style with his early heavy pressure. Pretty newbie scums can slip very easy, kush or not kush. Plus I had some difficulties in my last mafia games to post properly when people where directly pressure me. Why even think about artificial confidence though? Why is the concept of confidence even something to be considered beyond "if you're confident, push your case!" That's all confidence is good for. Artificial confidence does nothing. I get the point of "try to be more confident in your reads" or something to that extent, but I don't understand what's good about having confidence in pushing for a d1 scum lynch instead of lynching a lurker. We should do whatever we think is best at that point, not necessarily 1 thing or the other. From my experience, I would have better done some "artificial" confidence boosting in my first game, especially in the beginning, because of the reasons I have already explained. | ||
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What was your motivation for your question ? Do you realize that a lot of people are playing their first game right now ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 13:15 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 12:58 Djodref wrote: I don't think it's going to be difficult to find a scum D1. It's better for us to be confident about this because I think it's quite easy to reveal scum newbies when you put pressure on them. Plus, if you are town and you are not confident, people are going to feel it through your posts and are going to become suspicious about you. We have to be assertive and for this, we have to be confident in our ability to find scum. I know it looks difficult at first but don't forget that scum players are likely to be as inexperienced as you in this game. I'm really not getting this whole confidence theme going on and not really sure what confidence has to do with lynching a scum on d1. Confidence should be a result of being sure of something, not just being confident for the sake of being confident. If we're confident on a scum lynch d1, great, we lynch them, but really that confidence should come naturally from knowing we're right on a lynch vote. Even as a complete newbie, I'm not looking at this as "newbie vs newbie", I'm just looking at it as myself vs a bunch of unknown people. I'm certainly not counting on someone screwing up, which is how you're suggesting we approach this. The only way that it would be easy to find a scum d1 is if they slip up, and there's no guarantee that they'll slip up, newbie or not. For all we know, they could all lurk, which means they cannot slip up, and your "confidence" would only lead to lynching someone who's not lurking because you've forced yourself to be "confident". I'm not saying that you should be overconfident in your reads, I'm saying that you should be confident in your ability to find scum. To answer to daoud, I have faith in the town to find the scum and we should play this game with this mentality. Regarding the lurking, it is a bad strategy for the mafia to lurk (even worse for the town by the way) because we can use a policy lynch against a lurker. But It's a possibility I would like to consider later in the day. | ||
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Sylve could be doing some role fishing with his question. I really would like him to explain what was his motivation for it. | ||
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I've re-read the thread and I think that dandel and Rad are strong supporters of policy lynches for lurking. It's not a scumtell for me. I understand that you could be strongly against policy lynches given our experience ^^ The problem I see with this is people getting lazy and rely on a policy lynch for today. That's why I personally think it would be better to bring up the possibility for a policy lynch when we can tell for sure that lurking is plaguing us. | ||
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On October 25 2012 16:21 Roco69 wrote: 1/ It is my first game 2/ I don't get the confidence stuff as well, for the moment 3/ what about killing guys who speak too much, can it be a strategie ? just to think out of the box @Roco You should ask this kind of questions to your coach. If you have a strategy to propose, please back it up with serious arguments. Why do you think that mafia players would be among the most active posters ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 15:55 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 15:30 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 13:15 Rad wrote: On October 25 2012 12:58 Djodref wrote: I don't think it's going to be difficult to find a scum D1. It's better for us to be confident about this because I think it's quite easy to reveal scum newbies when you put pressure on them. Plus, if you are town and you are not confident, people are going to feel it through your posts and are going to become suspicious about you. We have to be assertive and for this, we have to be confident in our ability to find scum. I know it looks difficult at first but don't forget that scum players are likely to be as inexperienced as you in this game. I'm really not getting this whole confidence theme going on and not really sure what confidence has to do with lynching a scum on d1. Confidence should be a result of being sure of something, not just being confident for the sake of being confident. If we're confident on a scum lynch d1, great, we lynch them, but really that confidence should come naturally from knowing we're right on a lynch vote. Even as a complete newbie, I'm not looking at this as "newbie vs newbie", I'm just looking at it as myself vs a bunch of unknown people. I'm certainly not counting on someone screwing up, which is how you're suggesting we approach this. The only way that it would be easy to find a scum d1 is if they slip up, and there's no guarantee that they'll slip up, newbie or not. For all we know, they could all lurk, which means they cannot slip up, and your "confidence" would only lead to lynching someone who's not lurking because you've forced yourself to be "confident". I'm not saying that you should be overconfident in your reads, I'm saying that you should be confident in your ability to find scum. To answer to daoud, I have faith in the town to find the scum and we should play this game with this mentality. Regarding the lurking, it is a bad strategy for the mafia to lurk (even worse for the town by the way) because we can use a policy lynch against a lurker. But It's a possibility I would like to consider later in the day. Djo, I'm just not following your argument here. You still haven't replied to my original questions for you. Here's what you originally said: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 12:58 Djodref wrote: I don't think it's going to be difficult to find a scum D1. It's better for us to be confident about this because I think it's quite easy to reveal scum newbies when you put pressure on them. Plus, if you are town and you are not confident, people are going to feel it through your posts and are going to become suspicious about you. We have to be assertive and for this, we have to be confident in our ability to find scum. I know it looks difficult at first but don't forget that scum players are likely to be as inexperienced as you in this game. Now you're saying that we should have confidence in our ability to find scum, but that has never been an issue on the table. I don't remember anyone saying "onoes d1 is too hard we should just lynch a lurker" or anything even close to that. That's when you should say "have confidence, we can do it!" Instead, someone pointed out that we probably won't find a scum unless they slip (which is probably true) but he never said we shouldn't try, and I haven't said that either. All of town has faith that we'll find the scum. Why play the game if you don't? Not sure why you threw that in there except to look like town... Well, dandel and you have been saying that we need a major scumslip to find a scum D1. For me, it is close to say that it is too difficult to find a scum D1, because you are even saying that it is probably not going to happen. I disagree with the major scumslip, you can build good cases on D1 summing up the litlle scumtells in one's player post. You can totally catch scum this way. I'm insisting on this because it was not my mentality at all at the beginning of NMMXVIII, you case see this in my quotes in debear previous posts. I want the "scared" newbies (like daoud) to boost their confidence and go scumhunt. | ||
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what do you think of Roco post ? | ||
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do you have faith that we are going to find a scum today ? Would you agree that a lurker has basically 1/4 chance to flip scum if we lynch him ? | ||
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So is it a strategy for you or is it a strategy for town ? | ||
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You are just spectating. There is almost no content in your posts at the exception of you telling us what is happening in the thread. Please be more incisive, your goal should be to find scum. FoS Ini @daoud please post more... I know you tend post mainly from your job so I would appreciate you to be active during our asian afternoons. Don't be afraid to post, this environment is less ”dangerous“ than the one in our last game on Looney. | ||
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On October 25 2012 18:09 da0ud wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 17:52 Djodref wrote: I'm insisting on this because it was not my mentality at all at the beginning of NMMXVIII, you case see this in my quotes in debear previous posts. I want the "scared" newbies (like daoud) to boost their confidence and go scumhunt. I am not scared anymore... And I will hunt you down this time if I have to daoud Good ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? | ||
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On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 18:30 da0ud wrote: EBWOP : How would you already know I am town ? I don't know already if you are town or not. I've spoken too fast because I was thinking of our last game where you were town. It was a slip, but not a scumslip Regarding Roco, I understand your hunch but he reminds me your first weird posts last game. He is suspicious but he doesn't deserve red bold font yet imo ^^ | ||
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What do you think about Ini ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 18:40 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:30 da0ud wrote: EBWOP : How would you already know I am town ? I don't know already if you are town or not. I've spoken too fast because I was thinking of our last game where you were town. It was a slip, but not a scumslip Regarding Roco, I understand your hunch but he reminds me your first weird posts last game. He is suspicious but he doesn't deserve red bold font yet imo ^^ @everyone Please find in my quote the reasons why I called daoud town. It was a slip, I admit it, but it is in no way a scum slip. I'm ok to answer more questions about it if you are not satisfied. | ||
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Please answer my question regarding your question "what is your favorite role ?" I really want to understand your motivations for asking such a question. | ||
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On October 25 2012 22:15 sylverfyre wrote: Let me also be clear: Opposing a policy and opposing the specific instance of a policy being enacted are two entirely different things. Just because I'm not opposed to Lynch a Lurker doesn't mean I think we should invoke it automatically. But if we were closer to lynch time, and Ini and Roco still only had the posts they have... I'd vote for one of them. By not responding adequately to accusations made against you, you give the town very little to work with. I don't really agree with debears vote on rad, but I think debears is playing an aggressive game, which is clean to me. @sylver Would you prefer lynch Ini or Roco today ? | ||
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On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short. On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there. Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town How do you know he's town??? Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell. ##FOS Djodref I'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes. @Cheese Calling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it. Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post. Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question. I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player. | ||
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On October 25 2012 22:48 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 22:43 Djodref wrote: As for now, the only guy I would like to lynch right now is Inig. On what do you base that? All I see is he made no contributions. So did other people. Some didn't even post yet. If it's what he said, why do you see him as scummier than Roco? Because I don't, so I'd like to know where this is coming from. @dandel When I see the 2 posts from Roco, I see a total newbie. But he has some ideas which make him stand out. I would expect a total scum newbie to not post at all or trying to blend in. Posting this kind of weird posts lead me to think that he has no team (i.e. no experienced scummates) or that they don't check him or that he doesn't use his coach. Moreover, he has only two posts. At the other hand, Inig has 4 posts where he says basically nothing about his own mind. He is not interacting with anyone, he is just posting here for the sake of posting. I would expect scum to produce this kind of posts rather than the very suspicious posts from Roco. Anyways, I have to hear more from the both players to take any decision. As for now, my FoS is on Inig | ||
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On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 22:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short. On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there. Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town How do you know he's town??? On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell. ##FOS Djodref I'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes. @Cheese Calling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it. Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post. Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question. I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player. Uuuuh Not really. You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters. I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol. @dandel I've just played a game as a mafia player and the most difficult thing I had to answer to was "why do you think you are not going to be targeted tonight ?" I had a very strong case written against me at one time. But rather than this dead-on case (from mementoss if you want to read our Looney Lynching game), this only simple question has made my whole mentality crumbled. I know everybody is going to say "lol, no, I'm not mafia". But my question is psychological warfare ^^ | ||
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If you think that this a serious scumslip, you are wrong. | ||
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The guys I am really interested in atm are Inig, Rad, Roco and the lurkers | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:12 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 23:06 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 25 2012 22:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short. On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there. Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town How do you know he's town??? On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell. ##FOS Djodref I'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes. @Cheese Calling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it. Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post. Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question. I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player. Uuuuh Not really. You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters. I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol. @dandel I've just played a game as a mafia player and the most difficult thing I had to answer to was "why do you think you are not going to be targeted tonight ?" I had a very strong case written against me at one time. But rather than this dead-on case (from mementoss if you want to read our Looney Lynching game), this only simple question has made my whole mentality crumbled. I know everybody is going to say "lol, no, I'm not mafia". But my question is psychological warfare ^^ That's a different situation and a different question.. Most importantly, it's not a question you can just wave off with a "no". It's one that requires an answer with reasoning and logic. It's a decent question to ask. "are u scum" can be answered in a word, non-commitically. I don't think it's a good question. But I'm starting to argue semantics.... @dandel Yeah, it's not exactly the same kind of question but I don't think you can freely wave it off as scum. If you have to lie, it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, you are going to post some shit. | ||
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If you are around, I would like to know what do you think about Inig first posts. | ||
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Moreover, I don't think you can answer this question with zero games or three games on forums which is the case for almost all of us. I had the chance to experience more roles but I think I need to roll them again to be sure. So, to really answer your question, I would say: - My game as cop was fun but I have played the newbie card too much and people didn't take my seriously... - My game as mafia pardoner was fun but it was very stressful when people got suspicious of me and I've felt bad at the end seeing some townies so desperate to be mislynched (I'm serious thrawn ). Plus I don't think I won because I was particularly brilliant, I think I won because people didn't manage to consider me as a possible scum. My problem with your question is that it is irrelevant in this game and it is possible for you to check the sensibility of the players for roles. I don't believe you would ask such a question (loaded question from your own words) for the only sake of discussing. If you are town, you want to discuss to promote a good atmosphere and mainly scumhunting. Please tell me how such a question helps you to find the mafia players. If it doesn't help to find the mafia, I encourage you to start scumhunting in a more direct way | ||
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I don't care about who hasn't posted right now. I want to know what info you were expecting to get by asking your question. | ||
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Are you saying than debears and me are in the scumteam ? Why don't you vote one of us ? Could you explain your slip ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 00:25 Alsn wrote: All right, here I am again. First things first, Dandel asked me about lurker policy. I think that it's a potent tool in order to pressure scum into participating. Scum slips are nice and all, but if there's no pressure there's less chance of one happening. That being said in general I feel that lurker lynching is at the very best a ~25% chance of catching scum(random chance), policy or no. Generally I've gotten the feeling that lurkers don't lurk for strategic reasons, but because something pulled them away from the game and that's definitely something which can happen to anyone. With regards to other policy, what would that be, exactly? I'm all in favour of logical policy lynching. If an argument can be made that town benefits from it I'm all for it(see my thoughts on kush from my first few posts last game if you're interested in an example of why I think so). There's no player in this game that warrants such a lynch though, unless we are talking behavioural policy, but I'm not really familiar with any example of that so I would have to address such policy on a case by case basis. A few things stood out to me when I skimmed through the thread earlier today and I'll be posting some of my comments on what has actually happened so far over the course of the evening. @Alsn Roco did not raise your attention ? In my opinion, he could be lynched if we respect a no posting nonsense policy. Looking forward your next posts | ||
Djodref
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On October 26 2012 00:30 debears wrote: @Djo Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 23:18 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 23:12 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 25 2012 23:06 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 25 2012 22:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short. On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there. Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town How do you know he's town??? On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell. ##FOS Djodref I'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes. @Cheese Calling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it. Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post. Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question. I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player. Uuuuh Not really. You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters. I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol. @dandel I've just played a game as a mafia player and the most difficult thing I had to answer to was "why do you think you are not going to be targeted tonight ?" I had a very strong case written against me at one time. But rather than this dead-on case (from mementoss if you want to read our Looney Lynching game), this only simple question has made my whole mentality crumbled. I know everybody is going to say "lol, no, I'm not mafia". But my question is psychological warfare ^^ That's a different situation and a different question.. Most importantly, it's not a question you can just wave off with a "no". It's one that requires an answer with reasoning and logic. It's a decent question to ask. "are u scum" can be answered in a word, non-commitically. I don't think it's a good question. But I'm starting to argue semantics.... @dandel Yeah, it's not exactly the same kind of question but I don't think you can freely wave it off as scum. If you have to lie, it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, you are going to post some shit. Why did you ask the question? The answer is pretty obvious as town or scum You'd say "I'm town" no matter what. The question was useless and you know it. There is no real reaction that can be read from a question like that. It's not a big lie if the person is mafia by any means. I don't like that. It makes you look like you are contributing without actually doing so @debears I believe it would make mafia uncomfortable, no matter if it is easy to answer or not. I don't think it's too easy because I've also asked him another relevant question with this one. I was also interested to see who was going to pick it up. I'm expecting town players to read the thread more carefully than mafia players (I didn't even read twice the thread in the Looney Lynching game even if I was pretending to do so) and to jump on this kind of thing. | ||
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On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote: I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote: EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote + You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. @Inig How can you seriously find sylver energetic ? Why don't you want to share with us how you play the game (I mean this game) ? | ||
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I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. | ||
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On October 26 2012 00:59 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 00:38 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 00:30 debears wrote: @Djo On October 25 2012 23:18 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 23:12 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 25 2012 23:06 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 25 2012 22:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short. On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there. Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town How do you know he's town??? On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: [quote] @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell. ##FOS Djodref I'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes. @Cheese Calling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it. Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post. Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question. I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player. Uuuuh Not really. You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters. I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol. @dandel I've just played a game as a mafia player and the most difficult thing I had to answer to was "why do you think you are not going to be targeted tonight ?" I had a very strong case written against me at one time. But rather than this dead-on case (from mementoss if you want to read our Looney Lynching game), this only simple question has made my whole mentality crumbled. I know everybody is going to say "lol, no, I'm not mafia". But my question is psychological warfare ^^ That's a different situation and a different question.. Most importantly, it's not a question you can just wave off with a "no". It's one that requires an answer with reasoning and logic. It's a decent question to ask. "are u scum" can be answered in a word, non-commitically. I don't think it's a good question. But I'm starting to argue semantics.... @dandel Yeah, it's not exactly the same kind of question but I don't think you can freely wave it off as scum. If you have to lie, it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, you are going to post some shit. Why did you ask the question? The answer is pretty obvious as town or scum You'd say "I'm town" no matter what. The question was useless and you know it. There is no real reaction that can be read from a question like that. It's not a big lie if the person is mafia by any means. I don't like that. It makes you look like you are contributing without actually doing so @debears I believe it would make mafia uncomfortable, no matter if it is easy to answer or not. I don't think it's too easy because I've also asked him another relevant question with this one. I was also interested to see who was going to pick it up. I'm expecting town players to read the thread more carefully than mafia players (I didn't even read twice the thread in the Looney Lynching game even if I was pretending to do so) and to jump on this kind of thing. Hold on there, Tex. What are you referring to in that statement? The "town" comment to daud or the "are you mafia one? The "are you mafia ?" one The daoud thing was a slip, I wasn't planning anything with that. But I'm glad that daoud picked it up | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:00 sylverfyre wrote: And Djo, you claim "no i asked him two questions" when both questions are basically the same. debears case against Rad is developing interestingly, but Rad has a point - why are you trying so hard to save the lurkers? @sylver I'm sorry but not wanting to look suspicious is totally natural from a townie, especially from a total newbie. Adding the second question was only to make him uncomfortable if he was mafia. Plus the lurkers have no votes against them yet so debears is not trying to save them. Not yet... I still want you to comment Inig posts. | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? | ||
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I would be more worried about a scum Inig for expample. The kind of players who are in the thread without really participating, if you know what I mean... | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 | ||
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My comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote: Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum? I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ? 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specific All of these things feel scummy to me. | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: @Rad My comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote: Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum? I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ? 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specific All of these things feel scummy to me. You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker). Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor. Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch. By the way, what do you think about Inig ? | ||
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@dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. | ||
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On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 05:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: So you're saying thats simply his meta? I'll take a look at his other games. Seemed suspicious though, as it stood out a ton from the other players. It is simply my meta, regardless of my alignment You can find my previous game and my filters in these games in my previous post in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 10:05 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 09:06 debears wrote: Welcome everyone!!!! Been waiting for this for a while!!! A few things I'd like to know from everyone. 1) How many games have you played in? 2) How many have you observed seriously? 3)Will you be normally around for lynch? For me 1) 2 games 2) 3/4 3) Yes I will - except this friday (most likely. I play baseball for my college and we have a game friday night. don't know for sure how long it will go) Look forward to hearing from all of you. Let's get this rolllinngggg!!!!!! I'm going to give the links to my two previous games for everyone to be able to see how playing the newbie card can get people suspicious of you as town and helps you winning as scum. 1)2 games as well -Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII as cop - Looney Lynching Mini Mafia as mafia pardoner 2)I've more solo read than obsed, 5 games I would say 3)Yes You might want to read them if you have time ! | ||
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On October 26 2012 05:01 Clarity_nl wrote: Here's the thing. By pointing out the smiley thing, it is now irrelevant. Unless you can say right now, that because of the smileys it makes him lean towards scum or town. Regardless of smileys or no smileys in his posts from this moment, you changed his posts. He will now either: Stop posting smileys because he got told it made him look guilty (both scum and town would do this) OR he will continue posting smileys because it would look weird to change the way you post (both scum and town would do this) I also dug this up: Show nested quote + On October 22 2012 08:12 Djodref wrote: gg guys, I was happy to play with you, it was a fun game ^^ Also thank you thrawn for the meta warning, I've started to put smileys everywhere after that I was not sure how to play it during D1 but after that I found my "story" and I stuck to it I'm not going to stop posting smileys | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. | ||
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On October 26 2012 07:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 04:11 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. What scumhunting exactly? I didn't ever see you do something that would qualify as such. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 04:19 Clarity_nl wrote: To be devils advocate for a second, I imagine he means he's scouring the comments intently. Whereas your definition of scumhunting is probably closer to "actively engage with people to make them mess up"" Thanks clarity. Show nested quote + Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. Pure WIFOM. You said you wouldn't do it as scum, but if you are scum, you could do it, point at it, and say "I'd never do this as scum". It's impossible to get a read on your original answer, but the INSTANT you try to argue with "I'd never do this as scum"-WIFOM shit, it gets me riled up. Don't do that. It doesn't make you look good. Oh ok. Guess Ill not try to make myself look like a townie in the thread. Might get mistaken as WIFOM. So then what would be a wifom defense vs a non wifom defense? You can argue anything that way a long as you dont like it. I find just about every argument/case presented so far to be stupid and pointless. To be straight up, this first day/night cycle Im not going to contribute that much. I thought I had much more time when I signed up and then RL got stupid busy out of nowhere. My time will free up much more starting around Sunday-Monday, and then Ill be able to give the amount of time Ive wanted to give. If you dont like it, tough, but I dont like it either and Im quite frustrated about it. Whine about it if you want, but it is what it is. @Inig Could you at least tell us who you would like to lynch right now if you had to and add a quick reason to back up your answer ? On a side note, as soon as you are using arguments like "mafia would do that" or "mafia would not do that", you are using WIFOM, and it is bad and produce weak arguments. | ||
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On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me What do you think about Inig ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 08:13 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you. Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped." That's what you sound like with that statement djo. @Rad I don't care, it's an argument about policy lynch. I don't even understand why you are putting such an interest in this. I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my mind about a player or a lynch or something important... What do you think about Inig's posts by the way ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. I have already my eyes on you and I think that your posts lack content and scumhunting. You are my top scumread right now. Let's assume that the lurkers are going to get modkill today, who would you like to lynch ? Vote-pressuring you ## Vote Inig | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:43 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 08:13 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you. Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped." That's what you sound like with that statement djo. @Rad I don't care, it's an argument about policy lynch. I don't even understand why you are putting such an interest in this. I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my mind about a player or a lynch or something important... What do you think about Inig's posts by the way ? You said "I won't change my opinion." I pointed out that I can't think of any good reason a townie would be opposed to changing their opinion if an argument is good. It sounds like a scummy sort of move, for the reasons I laid out. That's why I have an interest in it, because if you're a townie it doesn't add up, thus you come across as scum. I'm completely open to some reasonable argument for why a townie would ever have that sort of mind set. I don't know why you're so interested in getting people's opinions on inig's post. It seems like you're just trying to divert attention. I would prefer that you finalized a subject before jumping to the next, otherwise it seems like dodging. Regardless, I'll answer your question. I don't like that he won't have much time until sunday-monday. That's a lot of lurking and I don't feel comfortable with it. I feel like it puts him on the list of people to be suspicious about, but not currently something I'm too concerned about. If it comes down to it and we decide to policy lynch, he'd be on the list if he stays mostly inactive. I do not get a scum or town read from him yet, he's pretty neutral to me at the moment. From what exactly am I trying to divert attention ? | ||
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by the way, His argument is good by my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. Seriously, if Inig is town, this kind of post shows exactly why agreeing early on policy lynching a lurker is a bad thing for town. He has no scumread but he doesn't look like he has done any effort to have one so far. Why so ? Because it is much more confortable to say "I have only townie reads, I'll prolly lynch a lurker". | ||
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I know Alsn town's play and I find him not fitting his meta. I intend to get some strong response to my post. I'm provoking him on purpose. Regarding your concerns about me not changing my mind, have they been addressed or not ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: @Rad by the way, His argument is good but my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? @Rad What did you not understand in this post ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote: So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS? Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: @Rad My comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote: Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum? I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ? 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specific All of these things feel scummy to me. You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker). Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor. Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch. By the way, what do you think about Inig ? Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me What do you think about Inig ? Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. | ||
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On October 26 2012 10:08 Rad wrote: @Djodref What did you not understand in this post ? Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 09:41 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: @Rad by the way, His argument is good by my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? It doesn't matter how you want to word it now. What matters is your statement from before and the fact that it wouldn't make any sense coming from a townie. As I've already pointed out, the floor is open to you to make some sense of it and clear this up. I understand that you have made up your mind. I'm done discussing this with you, we are both losing time... | ||
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On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. @Cheese I would appreciate you to quote my entire posts instead of cherry-picking some stuff like you did. I was responding to sylver saying that I was not looking so clean. My priority is to find scum first and defend myself in a second time. I'm planning to write a case on Inig by the way. | ||
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On October 26 2012 10:33 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote: So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS? On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: @Rad My comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote: Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum? I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ? 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specific All of these things feel scummy to me. You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker). Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor. Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch. By the way, what do you think about Inig ? On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me What do you think about Inig ? Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. This seems extremely suspicious to me, like scumslip suspicious, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe someone else can jump in on it? I'll think about it more in the meantime... @Rad I recommend you to check Alsn's filters in his previous game. Maybe it is going to help you understand what I meant... | ||
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Why we should lynch Inig First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
Total lack of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote: Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. Emotionally detached from this game + Show Spoiler + When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote: I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote: EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote + You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument + Show Spoiler + This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: /snip As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument. | ||
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On October 26 2012 12:18 debears wrote: @Djo Do you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote: So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS? On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: @Rad My comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote: Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum? I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out. ##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy. 2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ? 3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specific All of these things feel scummy to me. You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker). Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor. Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch. By the way, what do you think about Inig ? On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me What do you think about Inig ? Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts. If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty. @debears I think Inig fits the category of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. I don't like them much. Regarding Alsn, him lurking like this is not fitting his town meta at all. I'm quite suspicious of him at the moment. Moreover, I'm expecting a town Alsn to give more reasons for FoS me. I'm just trying to push him to check if his FoS was faked or not. | ||
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On October 26 2012 12:51 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:42 debears wrote: ebwop The line before that you mention "I don't care if Alsn has a FOS on me". I don't read scummy in that line. A town is just as likely to say that as scum It's the bolded part that I'm talking about. "if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post" I mentioned this in another post that it seems scummy to me but I can't quite put my finger on it. In particular the "if" aspect is bothering me. Might be a stretch but I read those 2 lines and was like... "wait what??" I feel like if anyone came at me with a argument about why I'm suspicious, I would at the very least attempt to shut it down regardless of how dumb I thought the reasons were. He's saying the opposite, that he would defend himself if the reasons were better (according to him) but since they're not he just doesn't care. As a town, one should clear their name at all costs yes? For all he knows, Alsn's argument could help convince others to vote him, and if he's town, not defending himself would be stupid. @Rad For meta reasons, I'm pretty suspicious of Alsn at the moment. I wonder if his FoS on me was faked or not. By the way, could you tell me which part of his FoS post has convinced that I was scummy, if there is one ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 13:26 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 13:15 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 12:51 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 12:42 debears wrote: ebwop The line before that you mention "I don't care if Alsn has a FOS on me". I don't read scummy in that line. A town is just as likely to say that as scum It's the bolded part that I'm talking about. "if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post" I mentioned this in another post that it seems scummy to me but I can't quite put my finger on it. In particular the "if" aspect is bothering me. Might be a stretch but I read those 2 lines and was like... "wait what??" I feel like if anyone came at me with a argument about why I'm suspicious, I would at the very least attempt to shut it down regardless of how dumb I thought the reasons were. He's saying the opposite, that he would defend himself if the reasons were better (according to him) but since they're not he just doesn't care. As a town, one should clear their name at all costs yes? For all he knows, Alsn's argument could help convince others to vote him, and if he's town, not defending himself would be stupid. @Rad For meta reasons, I'm pretty suspicious of Alsn at the moment. I wonder if his FoS on me was faked or not. By the way, could you tell me which part of his FoS post has convinced that I was scummy, if there is one ? Can you clarify the bolded part please? Are you asking "which part of his FoS convinced you that I was scummy" or "which part of the FoS was trying to convince that I was scummy" or something else? I don't understand how you worded that sentence. I'm sure it was just a typo, but I need clarification before I can respond. which part of his FoS convinced you that I was scummy ? Thank you | ||
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On October 26 2012 13:28 debears wrote: @cheese On the point of djos "townie vibes". Why would he defend me if he thought i wasnt town, which he stated after he stated he had townie vibes on me? @rad I knew you were including that part . I still don't see that part as necessarily scummy. A townie could say that he doesnt care because he honestly doesn't care about a fos. A scum has a pretty equal chance of saying the same. @debears I was answering Rad's post+ Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. I wanted to say that I have townies vibes from you which still stand. But I didn't consider you as 100% town. I've chosen poor wording. | ||
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On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On your case Debears: You've reiterated some of what's been said, or what I have observed already. You did present some new information, though. In particular, the following quote that I cannot agree with: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. I have a little problem with this notion. You can definitely get a "town vibe" from somebody but not fully consider them town. Always being suspicious and vigilant, especially with no hard evidence like on d1, is wise. I don't think this is a valid point, to be honest. Despite this, Djodref has a mountain against him. One of your new points really stuck out to me: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. If Djodref really thinks Rad is scum, why let someone else pursue? If you have a read, go for it. Don't beat around the bush and go off into the distance. Being multi-focused is acceptable, it's confusing why Djo would just "let debears take care of it". It makes no sense, unless he somehow knows Debears is town. In terms of the scumslip, I'm still thinking that the reference to Do0ud being town is a scum tell. His explanation for it, while being entirely plausible, fails to convince me whatsoever. His saying "my main concern is finding mafia" also doesn't sit well. The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref @Cheese Please specify which accusations/questions I couldn't address (please refer to the part in bold font in the spoiler). I'll try to answer adequately to them this time. | ||
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I'm focused on Inig for his total lack of scumhunting and his weird attempt to gain town cred. Could you sum up for me the main questions I have to answer to ? I'll try my best to answer them. | ||
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On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn The slip I have made was because I was mentioning another game I have been playing with daoud where he was town. I understand it can be seen as a scumslip. It's a valid point but not a strong one in my opinion. I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to give their thoughts about him. Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy, nor for the policy. I think your FoS is forced by the way... | ||
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I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all. This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is. dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience. But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it. | ||
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If you don't mind, I'm going to address your whole case later today. I don't want to spend all my time defending myself... Plus I have some work to do ^^ | ||
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So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ? Do you have other concerns ? Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? | ||
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Ok, I understand your concern now. But you are extrapolating a little what I have been saying. I don't remember saying I wouldn't change my mind regardless of the argument. I personally think that you are according to much importance to this point. In my eyes, this argument was irrelevant. Please tell me what could be my motivation as scum to not agree with dandel on this particular point. You are concentrating on the form of my speech while you should concentrate on the content of my speech. Concerning the "confidence" ordeal, it was to help the newbies and to counter your "lurker policy" ordeal. | ||
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Let's make the hypothesis that Oastmaster, imcasey and Roco are going to get modkilled today for not voting. Who would you like to lynch today and why ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: Ok guys I'm back. Got a few things to post. So, I'll start with a scumread. After rereading the thread. One person came out pretty suspicious, Djo. Defending Me/Town read on me + Show Spoiler + As you have started to put early pressure on some players with FoS and wrote a case against Rad, I felt that you were very involved in this game and committing to scumhunt. That were some nice early town tells for me, even if I did not mention it. I also made some post to precise what you were saying because I felt there was some misunderstanding about what you were saying. I wouldn't call this defending you, I did it to promote a better atmosphere. Here Djo restates an answer that I had already posted to a question addressed to me On October 25 2012 13:18 Djodref wrote: @Rad Debears solved us the game last time (NMM XVIII) with his case on SDM, the last mafia player we had to find. He was going to be mislynched but he didn't gave up and was still looking for the last mafia while he had everyone against him. It's important to believe in your ability to find the mafia. If not, you are just going to look desperate if people start a bandwagon against you. Also it is going to reduce your tendency to sheep and I think that sheeping happens a lot in the newbie games although it is really bad for town. Why is Djo defending me at this point? There is no way he can have a town read on me at that point, unless he is scum and he knows I'm town. Think about it 1) Town do not know who is scum. Since they don't know who is, they won't know if they are defending a scum early game 2) He feels the urge to jump to my defense way early in the game when I am answering the questions myself 2) He is restating what I had already said. I had already mentioned the SDM case from last game. Yet, he feels the need to bring it up again to defend me. I'm not defending you at that point, I'm rephrasing what you were saying because I felt that Rad had misunderstood you. Later, Clarity makes a post accusing me On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears @Clarity I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? Djo once agains heads to my defense. Note that Djo has not stated anywhere yet that he has a town read on me. At this point, I defend you because I was starting to have a town read on you. Clarity's post reminded me the posts from the newbies last game who were saying you were trying to disrupt the town when you were only scumhunting. Finally, he defends me in his 2 next posts with a somewhat townie read On October 26 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote: Guys, please remind that people who are taking strong stances (or weird stances like Roco) stand out. Mafia players usually don't want to stand out. Right now, I'm not very worried about a scum debears or a scum Rad. I would be more worried about a scum Inig for expample. The kind of players who are in the thread without really participating, if you know what I mean... Not worried about me being scum = at least a null read on me. The next post. I had a town read on you at that point. Not totally sure but I think it is less likely to find mafia players among the most active posters. On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Now, he finally states he has "townie vibes", yet he has been defending me since well early on. And then he backs his defense of me as retribution for last game. Defending himself for no reason with bad reasoning? That's scummy. Yeah, that's bad reasoning, but it is truly how I feel. You look like your town self and people are attacking you for the same stupid reasons than last time. Now, see what happens to the town read he has at this point been 1) exemplifying thru his defense of me and 2) by the last two posts I quoted. On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" a Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. A Quick turn in opinion on Rad + Show Spoiler + I don't have much things to say at this point. I fucked up. I was not sure at first about Rad and your case convinced me. But after this I've realized that it was not really likely for a scum player to start such a fight and post so much. Rad is also looking involded in this game and he is doing his part of scumhunting, even if I find that he is doing it the wrong way. Before my Rad case, here's what Djo had to say On October 25 2012 15:48 Djodref wrote: @debears I've re-read the thread and I think that dandel and Rad are strong supporters of policy lynches for lurking. It's not a scumtell for me. I understand that you could be strongly against policy lynches given our experience ^^ The problem I see with this is people getting lazy and rely on a policy lynch for today. That's why I personally think it would be better to bring up the possibility for a policy lynch when we can tell for sure that lurking is plaguing us. This is his very next post On October 25 2012 17:20 Djodref wrote: Nice case, I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him. So now, he suddenly thinks that Rad's stance on policy is a scum tell? He doesn't cite any parts of my case. Yet, he is thinking about voting Rad. Note - "I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him" implies that he found scumminess in Rad enough to think of voting Rad. And guess what? He doesn't really talk to Rad. He goes off on Ini and Roco while talking to Dauoud. Instead, he posts this later On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. Another thing - the word trust implies that Djo thinks or knows I'm town. The Scumslip + Show Spoiler + It's a slip, not a scumslip. I was referring to a game where I knew daoud was town. So I wrote my sentence having this in mind. Hence the slip. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:09 da0ud wrote: On October 25 2012 17:52 Djodref wrote: I'm insisting on this because it was not my mentality at all at the beginning of NMMXVIII, you case see this in my quotes in debear previous posts. I want the "scared" newbies (like daoud) to boost their confidence and go scumhunt. I am not scared anymore... And I will hunt you down this time if I have to daoud Good ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? Note how different his approach to Dauod is to me? He willingly defends me, yet doesn't want to defend dauod. Why? Here he implies that Dauod is town early in the game. He plays it off as bad word choice, yet there are other things in his filter that imply extra information. Notably, the stuff I mentioned before on his actions which indicate that he thinks/knows I'm town despite him claiming that he doesn't think I'm town. FOS Djo Djo, what do you have to say. Most importantly on the subject of your actions which indicate that you think/know i'm town yet you saying that you don't think I am Right now, I think you are town. Not 100% convinced but I would say 70%. You are doing a good job at scumhunting and you really look like your town self. The slip was unfortunate and I think I'm providing good explanation for it: you have to look at the context of the sentence. Regarding Rad, I've spoken too fast and I've changed my mind about him. One last thing I would like to say is that I'm also involving myself in this game. I've spent a lot of time defending myself and I've explained why I think that Inig would be a good lynch target for today. If you need more details or if you are not satisfied with my explanations, please come back to me. | ||
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Thanks for your post. I have to look more into it but I need to tell you that what I call town credit, you understand it as town status. So I was accusing you at wanting to gain town status. WIFOM is a shorcut to say that you are speculating too much on what a mafia player would do or not. Mafia players love to produce fake arguments using WIFOM | ||
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Could you tell me who you would like to lynch if you were unable to lynch any of the lurkers ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 19:36 Alsn wrote: Just woke up and read through the thread. First impressions are that Djodref seemed way more defensive than he needed to be towards my accusation. It was merely meant as a prod(which he probably realized) yet he felt the need to resort to insulting me as a way to discredit my points. If nothing else, it has sparked a ton of discussion, so I'm happy about that. To clarify, Djod does still feel slightly scummy to me, yet I'm still not convinced about him being town or scum as his actions can definitely be explained from both perspectives if one tries to. His main redeeming action to me is his willingness to stick to his guns and pressure Inig even though he was under pressure himself. I see that as a more townie move than a scum move, yet with all the other things brought up against him I don't feel that it's enough to clear his name. That being said, my reads so far amount to mostly very slight reads in one way or the other. I think my strongest reads so far are Rad/debears who are looking both pretty towny, simply due to how willing they are to put themselves out there. If nothing else they have given us a lot of things to put into context once people start to flip, which is very good for town. Right now I'd be in favour of lynching a lurker, simply due to the fact that I don't consider Djodref to be a strong enough of a read to me at this point. To sum up, I feel the benefits of getting rid of a non-contributor such as Roco currently outweighs the chance of Djodref flipping scum. Although Roco if you are still following the thread and haven't given up, posting your own feelings about the topics in the thread so far would go a long way towards eliminating suspicion against you. I'll take a look at Inig's points regarding Dandel, but unless I missed something extremely incriminating when I read through it the first time I'd still be in favour of lynching a lurker. @Alsn As I've said, I was expecting better reasons from you to cast a FoS on someone, given your meta. Moreover, you kept saying things like "it could be scum, it could be town". Hence the half-assed comment. I didn't realize that you were busy nowadays and I was very wary of your low post counts. Thus I've been provoking you on purpose to see what kind of reaction you would have. I can say that you kept your cool and I appreciate it. I'm sorry if you felt insulted but I was attacking your "case", not your person. | ||
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On October 26 2012 14:34 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 14:21 Djodref wrote: @Rad So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ? Do you have other concerns ? Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? My original concerns came from the "confidence" ordeal from before. As I found with debears, that can turn out to be a huge ordeal and I'll address it again if I feel the need to. My concerns about your unwillingness to change your stance on something regardless of the arguments provided are still there. To me, as I've stated, this feels like a scummy perspective. I can't see a good reason for a townie to not be open to changing their opinions on something based on further arguments. "No no no not going to budge on this!" feels scummy. "Let me hear your points, ok, I disagree and here's why" feels townie. It was the way you handled the questions. It doesn't matter that it was about just a particular point, or even if that point mattered in the end, but that you were so specific about never changing your opinion on it regardless of the arguments provided. It didn't feel like a townie move, so I can only suspect scum, but furthermore, you've dodged my questions until now. Why? If you can so simply answer them now, why didn't you do it before? You clearly saw them, acknowledged them, but didn't answer them. Instead, you said you were done with me. Going to have to look over all this in more depth tomorrow as I'm getting tired and need to wind down. @Rad I gave more thoughts about your post and I've decided that I should try to address your concern in a better way than my last attempt. I understand that I need to answer the 2 following questions, please correct me if I am wrong 1)Why I was not open to change my stance ? 2)Why I was dodging this question at first ? 1) I wasn't open to change my stance because I think that enforcing a strict lurker policy is a bad strategy for town. I was quite stubborn on this point because I have seem some games where people forgot to scumhunt because they were relying on the policy too much. Except for this point, I believe that I can be quite open minded. I would go as far as to reconsider my position on the policy, given the incredible amount of lurkers that we have in this game. 2)I've been dodging your questions because I didn't understand the nature of your concern. I thought you were asking me about this particular point which I thought I had already addressed. That's why I gave you the same answer again and again. But I understand now that you were more concerned about my general state of mind which would lead me to not discuss anything. I wanted to end this discussion with dandel about the policy because it didn't really matter for me to agree with him or not. For me, disagreeing on policy is natural. What really counts is the general consistency of a player and whether or not he gives good reasons when he changes his mind. I felt like we were done talking about this with dandel and I wanted to close the subject while giving my final stance about it. After all, this is only policy discussion, which should be less relevant than scumhunting discussion. | ||
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Kush <3 Policy lynch Kush, anyone ? Alsn, are you in ? [/joke post] | ||
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I'm keeping my vote on you to keep the pressure on you. I'm glad that it led you to post more. I'm less inclined to lynch you right now but I need more time and more discussion with you to decide what I should do. You really need to clarify your stance on Cheese, I have no idea where you stand right now. | ||
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I'm also very curious of the reason why you chose imcasey over Oat/kush. Could you please us tell why ? | ||
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Could you please explain your reasons for me to be your backup vote ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote: Man, I did get a bit emotional, I admit, but I really do consider him scummy. Not just because he accused me specifically. I can see, however, that Ingi lynch will probably not go through today, since nobody wants to support it. I'm keeping my vote on him for now (because, conversely, I don't find the Djo suspicions to be too compelling) and I still have hope that maybe some people will look at it the same way. @Dandel We have plurality lynch system, so we don't need to consolidate, and I have no idea how many people are actually going to vote today... Could you tell us more about why you want to lynch Ini ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Please tell me the points you think I have been addressing in an unsatisfactory way. Same for you, Cheese, by the way. If you are town, I recommend you to give better explanations than this for possibly voting me because it is going to backfire on you. What do you mean exactly by "switching gears a lot" ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Why should scum assist the "lynchwagon" (it is bandwagon by the way) ? If we are going to lynch a scum today, don't you think that they are going to try to go against the bandwagon ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Who are the three players who are going to drop, according to you ? Are you even reading this thread ? | ||
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If you were reading the thread, you could see that I have finally addressed Alsn's points against me in this post. On October 26 2012 14:02 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn The slip I have made was because I was mentioning another game I have been playing with daoud where he was town. I understand it can be seen as a scumslip. It's a valid point but not a strong one in my opinion. I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to give their thoughts about him. Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy, nor for the policy. I think your FoS is forced by the way... and I mention it again in this post On October 26 2012 20:34 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 19:36 Alsn wrote: Just woke up and read through the thread. First impressions are that Djodref seemed way more defensive than he needed to be towards my accusation. It was merely meant as a prod(which he probably realized) yet he felt the need to resort to insulting me as a way to discredit my points. If nothing else, it has sparked a ton of discussion, so I'm happy about that. To clarify, Djod does still feel slightly scummy to me, yet I'm still not convinced about him being town or scum as his actions can definitely be explained from both perspectives if one tries to. His main redeeming action to me is his willingness to stick to his guns and pressure Inig even though he was under pressure himself. I see that as a more townie move than a scum move, yet with all the other things brought up against him I don't feel that it's enough to clear his name. That being said, my reads so far amount to mostly very slight reads in one way or the other. I think my strongest reads so far are Rad/debears who are looking both pretty towny, simply due to how willing they are to put themselves out there. If nothing else they have given us a lot of things to put into context once people start to flip, which is very good for town. Right now I'd be in favour of lynching a lurker, simply due to the fact that I don't consider Djodref to be a strong enough of a read to me at this point. To sum up, I feel the benefits of getting rid of a non-contributor such as Roco currently outweighs the chance of Djodref flipping scum. Although Roco if you are still following the thread and haven't given up, posting your own feelings about the topics in the thread so far would go a long way towards eliminating suspicion against you. I'll take a look at Inig's points regarding Dandel, but unless I missed something extremely incriminating when I read through it the first time I'd still be in favour of lynching a lurker. @Alsn As I've said, I was expecting better reasons from you to cast a FoS on someone, given your meta. Moreover, you kept saying things like "it could be scum, it could be town". Hence the half-assed comment. I didn't realize that you were busy nowadays and I was very wary of your low post counts. Thus I've been provoking you on purpose to see what kind of reaction you would have. I can say that you kept your cool and I appreciate it. I'm sorry if you felt insulted but I was attacking your "case", not your person. I'm more interested in your personal reasons for possibly voting for me. But I'm even more interested right now to know who are the 3 guys who are going to drop, according to you | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:29 sylverfyre wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:22 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Who are the three players who are going to drop, according to you ? Are you even reading this thread ? What kind of condescension is this? 1 - Clarity, who has already been modkilled 2 - Roco69, who has not posted since posting some pretty questionable stuff. He was immediately asked questions about it, and never responded. 3 - imcasey, who hasn't posted at all. (Likely player to get replaced, though.) I'm sorry but I wouldn't call Clarity modkill a player drop. Clarity has made a mistake and has been punished for it. I thought you were referring to Oatsmaster instead of Clarity. I'm very curious how you could have missed that Clarity has been modkilled. It has been very clear on the filters list for a long time. | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:33 sylverfyre wrote: Day one but you want someone, who is ostensibly town, to have a better reason than "well his post seems kinda fishy" for an FOS? I know how Alsn plays as town and I'm expecting more from him to cast a FoS on someone. According to him, his post on me was meant as a prode. | ||
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So do you have even your own reasons for possibly voting me today ? Or were you just sheeping like a boss ? | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:33 sylverfyre wrote: Day one but you want someone, who is ostensibly town, to have a better reason than "well his post seems kinda fishy" for an FOS? @sylver Are you saying that Alsn is ostensibly town ? Are you serious ? Today, Alsn is the definition itself of a semi-lurker trying to blend in... Did you really pay attention to how he presented my lynch ? On October 26 2012 22:22 Alsn wrote: /snip For that reason, I'm going to go with my strongest scum read so far, Djodref. Like I said though, I don't really feel like we have particularly good odds on him(only slightly better than random), but at the very least people have actually committed to taking stances on him and been forced to explain why. We would gain nothing by lynching a possible modkill who has said basically nothing, as no one could really be blamed for wanting them gone. /snip ##Vote: Djodref Will be looking over the other cases made so far to see if maybe there are better reasons than my own to be found, but for now I'm not yet convinced by anyone. I'm passing this to Alsn right now because he could have some serious IRL excuses. But just look at how he is confident that I would flip scum: "only slightly better than random" Sure Alsn is ostensibly town... | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:44 sylverfyre wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:35 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:29 sylverfyre wrote: On October 26 2012 23:22 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Who are the three players who are going to drop, according to you ? Are you even reading this thread ? What kind of condescension is this? 1 - Clarity, who has already been modkilled 2 - Roco69, who has not posted since posting some pretty questionable stuff. He was immediately asked questions about it, and never responded. 3 - imcasey, who hasn't posted at all. (Likely player to get replaced, though.) I'm sorry but I wouldn't call Clarity modkill a player drop. Clarity has made a mistake and has been punished for it. I thought you were referring to Oatsmaster instead of Clarity. I'm very curious how you could have missed that Clarity has been modkilled. It has been very clear on the filters list for a long time. I missed it initially (I was asleep at the time of his modkill) and didn't notice it immediately upon waking up, especially cause nobody had mentioned it. I had just noticed it when I made the "3 drops" comment, and agreed when daoud posted "wow, nobody is talking about this? and my reply to daoud amounted to an "i know right?" Furthermore, it's not so much me being frustrated at 3 players lurking out of the game, but 3 players vanishing from the game before the end of day 1 is pretty depressing and could easily cause this game to suffer infant mortality. And your condescending tone towards me and other accusers ("half-assed FOS") is bothering me. @sylver I'm sorry for the tone I'm employing. I'm just getting pretty pissed off by people accusing me for weak reasons (like Alsn did). Right now, I have the feeling that you are just sheeping. Please prove me wrong and I'll be nicer to you ^^ | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:49 sylverfyre wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:42 Djodref wrote: @sylver So do you have even your own reasons for possibly voting me today ? Or were you just sheeping like a boss ? Uh, I've said my reasons. I don't find your defenses/ignorance of accusations adequate, I don't like how you're like BLIND LURKER POLICY IS BAD when NOBODY was advocating blind lurker policy (last resort lurker policy) which pretty much was turning the discussion into a very useless one, then you turn around and start aggressively attacking Ini for lurking. Finally I don't like how you accuse Ini of "not scumhunting" when he makes some well-thought-out town-aligned reads (and some null-reads) Ini was not scumhunting at all. Only two questions asked to other people, no pressure at all. Once again, please tell me what do you have against me. Stop saying accusations, be specific. Please show me where in my filter I have said that "blind lurker policy is bad". | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:54 Alsn wrote: Djod, just quoting my post and then writing something after it doesn't mean you addressed it. In fact, your response is illogical. You state a truth "I have most certainly asked questions of more than just Roco/Inig!" yet that truth was irrelevant to my criticism of you. My criticism was that you indeed asked a lot of questions but the only people you actually shared your own thoughts about were to cast suspicion on Roco/Inig, for reasons of them being lurky. Yet at the same time you criticised Rad for being in favour of lurker lynching. I'm not sure if you're purposefully trying to distract the issue or if you genuinely misunderstood my criticism of you but I'm inclined to let my vote stay for now. However, I will definitely be checking the thread for the next 5-6 hours to see if there's any reason for me to change it. I'd just like to remind everyone that I can not be here for lynch like I stated during pre-game. Exam starts tomorrow at 8:30 local time and lynch is at 02:00. At the very latest I'll be here until ~3 hours before lynch. @Alsn I didn't attack them for lurking, I have attacked them because - Roco was posting nonsense - Inig was not showing any scumhunting in his posts, only fluff I didn't find something as suspicious as that in other players posts. Maybe the role-fishing question from sylver but that's all. Nevertheless, I understand your criticism better now. I would have appreciated if you have made this post before. And there is a difference between applying a policy and trying to find what is scummy. Even in lurker's posts. | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:58 sylverfyre wrote: So now you're discounting my reasons too, saying I'm just sheeping? Can you address a single accusation made against you instead of just counter-accusing? Ok, give me a list of the accusations you have against me. I'm going to address them right away. | ||
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On October 27 2012 00:04 sylverfyre wrote: The tone you're employing indicates frustration - could be mafia 'i'm caught' frustration or townie 'why lynch me?' frustration but you're getting accused while throwing out lots of accusations and 0 defenses. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 09:52 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 09:47 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ "Uncle" Dan I am of the opinion that inactive players are a good candidate for lynching. There is too much mystery involved with someone whose only contribution to the thread is nonexistent. In regards to the noobie-card policy: I have to say that claiming inexperience is a terrible defense against any accusation. Djo in the last newbie game made several references to him being a noob (and being town), and it only served to make him seem suspicious to other players. You are sure taking lurker policy lynch seriously. Would you explain us at which point suspicious players become better lynch candidates than inactive players ? Then you suddenly go silent on that issue. And inactive players ARE suspicious (and you can't automatically say whether they're more suspicious or less suspicious than another suspicious player, without providing concrete examples) so it's a moot question anyway. Not your only moot question (you've been called out for asking the "are you mafia?" pointless question, too.) @sylver I'm sorry but I didn't understand you meant with this post. Like not at all... Please take your time and gather your evidences. I'll defend myself after that. I'm not going to yell at you anymore | ||
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On October 26 2012 21:35 sylverfyre wrote: Running under the assumption that imcasey and Roco get modkilled if they don't show up, I'd lynch Djo. You say Inig has a lack of scumhunting but scrutinizing people and saying that you can only read town out of them is not a lack of scumhunting. For now, I'm going with lynching the confusing lurker. If he either becomes A) not confusing, B) makes no action at all and makes me believe a modkill is incoming, or C) is replaced and the replacement can make some contribution. Vote Roco69 @sylver Not asking questions, not putting pressure on anyone and give only town reads is a total lack of scumhunting in my opinion. Remember that the easiest thing for mafia to give are townreads because they know our alignment. | ||
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On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. @sylver I understand that you can see this as a contradiction. It would have been better if you had brought it by yourself at that time rather than doing it right now but it's ok. I was calling Roco out because he was posting nonsense. I was hoping for him to post some more in response to this pressure rather than go back to lurk-land. I have been calling Inig out because his posts were lacking of scumhunting. He could have done it but he was preferring posting about what was going on in the thread. Still waiting to see where I've been switching gears a lot (not really sure to understand what that means). | ||
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On October 27 2012 00:24 sylverfyre wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 00:10 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:58 sylverfyre wrote: So now you're discounting my reasons too, saying I'm just sheeping? Can you address a single accusation made against you instead of just counter-accusing? Ok, give me a list of the accusations you have against me. I'm going to address them right away. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:49 sylverfyre wrote: On October 26 2012 23:42 Djodref wrote: @sylver So do you have even your own reasons for possibly voting me today ? Or were you just sheeping like a boss ? Uh, I've said my reasons. I don't find your defenses/ignorance of accusations adequate, I don't like how you're like BLIND LURKER POLICY IS BAD when NOBODY was advocating blind lurker policy (last resort lurker policy) which pretty much was turning the discussion into a very useless one, then you turn around and start aggressively attacking Ini for lurking. Finally I don't like how you accuse Ini of "not scumhunting" when he makes some well-thought-out town-aligned reads (and some null-reads) To make it a more comprehensive list - poor responses to accusations in the past be specific - "You sure are taking policy seriously" -> Attack lurkers aggressively (the contradiction inherent here) I attacked Roco because he was posting nonsense. Did I call him out for lurking ? I don't think so... Moreover, I couldn't have known at that time that he was going to lurk this hard. I attacked Inig for good reasons in my opinion. You should have commented my case about him if you were disagreeing. - accusing ini of "not scumhunting" when he posted his reads on people, simply because none of those reads were reads of scum (they were townie or null reads, and ini blatantly admitted such) Please check Inig's filter, he is admitting himself that he was not scumhunting when I called him out for it - Emotional levels running awfully high as people mount pressure on you, but not much defense from accusations. I'm pissed off because I'm spending my whole time defending myself and people like you are saying that I'm not - "I don't care if alsn has a FOS on me" is your only defense against him for a long time. Only just now did you even acknowledge his accusations as legit. It was a mistake to answer like this. But I still think that Alsn's FoS was not really founded. Moreover, I provoked him on purpose because I was suspicious of him for meta reasons. - Accusing me of sheeping when I've made it clear that I was suspicious of you pretty early. Since then, you've given me more reasons to suspect you. @sylver Thank you for preparing this list. My comments are in bold font in your quote. | ||
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regarding the sheeping part, I don't find anywhere in your filter the post when you make it clear that you are suspicious about me. Are you referring to this post ? On October 26 2012 00:52 sylverfyre wrote: I admit that my question may not have been as useful as it sounded in my head at the time. If you don't want to answer it, don't. I think that it's not completely useless, I found the information you gave me interesting, because I don't know you as a player but this isn't your first game. You're tunneling me pretty hard when you don't look particularly clean, yourself, Djo. How bout responding to some of the criticisms against yourself? You even asked a more useless question than mine "Are you mafia?" is the classical question to which the entire game responds in chorus, "No." | ||
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On October 27 2012 00:42 kushm4sta wrote: More on daoud: He seems much more careful about what he says this game than last game. Last games his posts were like WTF is this weird guy talking about. This game they look like he doesn't want to catch anyone's attention. Why we shouldn't lynch djodref today: He does look pretty scummy. But I don't see how anyone can have a lot of certainty in that read. Combination of high activity and low certainty means he should not lynch him. Also realize that djodref is in a position where he NEEDS to evolve his meta whether he is town or scum. His first game he played as a noob, understandable because it was his first game. His second game, he pretended to be a noob as a scum strat. I think showing that he is better than the newb he pretended to be last game would be the natural play for town djodref, and also scum djodref trying to appear as town djodref. Djo: who out of the active players seems scummiest to you? Also why did you bring up how you want to lynch a lurker without even trying to pressure your scumreads? @Kush Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. | ||
Djodref
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Him posting some nonsense about the possibility of a SK just after totally fits his meta. He needs to post a lot more though... | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
In my opinion, he had a positive response after my case against him. I doubt that he could be a scum after that. His role claim was looking really sincere. If he can improve his presence in the thread and his scumhunting, I don't want to lynch him. I'm going to unvote him. I would cast my vote on Roco or imcasey if they magically reappear. I'll wake up early tomorrow to see if the bandwagon is still against me or not. If you are town, do not sheep and cast your vote against me. Read my filter and make your own opinion by yourself. You are going to feel some heat if you cast your vote too lightly because I'm going to flip green. I'm sorry but I need some sleep guys ## Unvote | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 27 2012 00:59 sylverfyre wrote: Yes, I was referring to that part. I had an FOS on Roco that I didn't really want to retract at the time, and wasn't certain about having multiple FOS out at the time. I have since asked about the rules on that, and been informed that multiple FOS are perfectly fine. sylver Ok. Your suspicion about me is stated in that post but it is in no way clearly stated. What do you think about my defense. Any comments ? | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 27 2012 00:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ Djo Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 13:42 Djodref wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On your case Debears: You've reiterated some of what's been said, or what I have observed already. You did present some new information, though. In particular, the following quote that I cannot agree with: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. I have a little problem with this notion. You can definitely get a "town vibe" from somebody but not fully consider them town. Always being suspicious and vigilant, especially with no hard evidence like on d1, is wise. I don't think this is a valid point, to be honest. Despite this, Djodref has a mountain against him. One of your new points really stuck out to me: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. If Djodref really thinks Rad is scum, why let someone else pursue? If you have a read, go for it. Don't beat around the bush and go off into the distance. Being multi-focused is acceptable, it's confusing why Djo would just "let debears take care of it". It makes no sense, unless he somehow knows Debears is town. In terms of the scumslip, I'm still thinking that the reference to Do0ud being town is a scum tell. His explanation for it, while being entirely plausible, fails to convince me whatsoever. His saying "my main concern is finding mafia" also doesn't sit well. The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref @Cheese Please specify which accusations/questions I couldn't address (please refer to the part in bold font in the spoiler). I'll try to answer adequately to them this time. The text you put in bold regarding my thoughts on you was, specifically, a reference to the point at which Rad was asking you about not changing your arguments on policy lynching. + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 08:13 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you. Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped." That's what you sound like with that statement djo. @Rad I don't care, it's an argument about policy lynch. I don't even understand why you are putting such an interest in this. I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my mind about a player or a lynch or something important... What do you think about Inig's posts by the way ? On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: @Rad by the way, His argument is good by my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? The point that I find most interesting is when Rad says the bolded portion. Rad thinks it's scum mentality. Your only address on the issue is essentially that "I don't care if I look scummy, this discussion is pointless, and my arguement is better". Why are you so unwavering about your opinion in this matter? @ Cheese I have missed your post. Regarding this point, I've have misunderstood Rad's arguments against me. I thought he was calling me out on this point while he was bringing the my stance on a more general level. That's why I found it totally stupid and I didn't want to discuss about it anymore. I've tried to address it in two previous posts. I did not have feedback on the last one so tell me what do you think of it. first one On October 26 2012 14:14 Djodref wrote: @Rad I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all. This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is. dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience. But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it. second one On October 26 2012 20:53 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 14:34 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 14:21 Djodref wrote: @Rad So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ? Do you have other concerns ? Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? My original concerns came from the "confidence" ordeal from before. As I found with debears, that can turn out to be a huge ordeal and I'll address it again if I feel the need to. My concerns about your unwillingness to change your stance on something regardless of the arguments provided are still there. To me, as I've stated, this feels like a scummy perspective. I can't see a good reason for a townie to not be open to changing their opinions on something based on further arguments. "No no no not going to budge on this!" feels scummy. "Let me hear your points, ok, I disagree and here's why" feels townie. It was the way you handled the questions. It doesn't matter that it was about just a particular point, or even if that point mattered in the end, but that you were so specific about never changing your opinion on it regardless of the arguments provided. It didn't feel like a townie move, so I can only suspect scum, but furthermore, you've dodged my questions until now. Why? If you can so simply answer them now, why didn't you do it before? You clearly saw them, acknowledged them, but didn't answer them. Instead, you said you were done with me. Going to have to look over all this in more depth tomorrow as I'm getting tired and need to wind down. @Rad I gave more thoughts about your post and I've decided that I should try to address your concern in a better way than my last attempt. I understand that I need to answer the 2 following questions, please correct me if I am wrong 1)Why I was not open to change my stance ? 2)Why I was dodging this question at first ? 1) I wasn't open to change my stance because I think that enforcing a strict lurker policy is a bad strategy for town. I was quite stubborn on this point because I have seem some games where people forgot to scumhunt because they were relying on the policy too much. Except for this point, I believe that I can be quite open minded. I would go as far as to reconsider my position on the policy, given the incredible amount of lurkers that we have in this game. 2)I've been dodging your questions because I didn't understand the nature of your concern. I thought you were asking me about this particular point which I thought I had already addressed. That's why I gave you the same answer again and again. But I understand now that you were more concerned about my general state of mind which would lead me to not discuss anything. I wanted to end this discussion with dandel about the policy because it didn't really matter for me to agree with him or not. For me, disagreeing on policy is natural. What really counts is the general consistency of a player and whether or not he gives good reasons when he changes his mind. I felt like we were done talking about this with dandel and I wanted to close the subject while giving my final stance about it. After all, this is only policy discussion, which should be less relevant than scumhunting discussion. | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 27 2012 01:13 debears wrote: @Djo On Alsn The main part of Alsn's case is his meta and his FOS on you. In terms of meta, Alsn has not been fitting his activity and involvement of the last game when he was town. However, he has stated suitable IRL reasons and has recently picked up his activity level with his active discussion with others. Right now, his meta is a null tell. Then, with the FOS. I believe his FOS was suitable. He was wishy washy quite a bit last game. It seems to me more indicative of his looking at both sides of the motivation behind posts. Alsn is a null read right now. I expect him to pick up his activity level day 2. If he doesn't, then we can do something about it. Lynching him today is a poor option. @debears I agree with you. I didn't catch on his IRL reasons at first so I was really wary. I overreacted to his FoS on me. I'm giving him a pass for today even if I think he didn't have good enough reasons to vote for me. | ||
Djodref
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Djodref
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On October 27 2012 01:34 kushm4sta wrote: @debears Djo does look scummy just from my first read through. I need to consider his case in more depth (planning on doing that after d1). I'm not sure he is a viable d1 lynch though. This is because 1 he is active, 2 he is trying to change his meta. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding him. @djodref Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: @Kush Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. I didn't ask you for town reads. I asked you for scum reads. You soft defend sylver in the wishy washiest way possible ("he had some nice reactions") then you give him as your biggest scumread. Stop overdefending yourself. Start being helpful. @Kush I've got it but I've been going through a lot of shit recently... I'm not sure of my reads, at the exception of debears and Rad. Too bad that Rad is not around by the way. I also need to sleep. | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
Here is a collection of quotes for sylver regarding the lurkers. + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 13:47 sylverfyre wrote: Also geez, as much as I like lynch a Lurker... isn't it a bit early? We're like 10% into day 1! If someone's still lurking when we're getting closer to lynch time, I could be convinced, but I feel like policy lynching lurkers should be something to resort to if we can't find anyone else being sketchy. With that, I'm going to bed. I'll be around most of tomorrow! On October 25 2012 22:10 sylverfyre wrote: @ Dandel Ion - you've basically said something anti-policy and pro-policy at the same time. What? How exactly does opposing Lynch a Lurker policy give off a town read? For me it gives off a 0.1% scum read to oppose a reasonable, but not infallible, Day 1 strategy. And if we get to the end of the day and there are still people who have only made the minimal of posts despite people accusing them (example: Roco if we were close to lynch time), then I think that's a perfectly solid lynch candidate. On October 26 2012 00:32 sylverfyre wrote: Quick reminder-list of player-filters: Game start was at: October 25, 9:00AM Server time. Clarity hasn't posted since gamestart. imcasey hasn't posted since gamestart. Oatsmaster hasn't posted since gamestart. Inig has posted a few times. Roco has posted a few times. On October 26 2012 01:01 sylverfyre wrote: Get the lurkers to respond to suspicions. If they fail that, THEN you lynch them. Nobody's advocating a blind lurker lynch without trying to talk to them first. He is clearly a supporter of a strict anti-lurker policy. I don't personally like it but I leave it to the player's preference... But I don't like when he comes up with this post. On October 26 2012 21:35 sylverfyre wrote: Running under the assumption that imcasey and Roco get modkilled if they don't show up, I'd lynch Djo. You say Inig has a lack of scumhunting but scrutinizing people and saying that you can only read town out of them is not a lack of scumhunting. For now, I'm going with lynching the confusing lurker. If he either becomes A) not confusing, B) makes no action at all and makes me believe a modkill is incoming, or C) is replaced and the replacement can make some contribution. Vote Roco69 What I really don't like is that he saying that he could vote for me because of the possibility of a modkilling. As a strong supporter of policy lynching, I expected him to lynch the lurkers by himself, not waiting for the mod to take care of the lurkers for him. In the latter case, we don't need a policy. It doesn't really make sense. The second thing that I didn't like is the reasons he gave for a possible vote on him. It was a little unexpected because I'm not very present in his filter before this point. He could have mentioned debears case or Rad's case against me. I don't know if he has read them or not. I had to pressure him to get comprehensive reasons from him for a possible vote and here is what I got. On October 27 2012 00:24 sylverfyre wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 00:10 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:58 sylverfyre wrote: So now you're discounting my reasons too, saying I'm just sheeping? Can you address a single accusation made against you instead of just counter-accusing? Ok, give me a list of the accusations you have against me. I'm going to address them right away. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:49 sylverfyre wrote: On October 26 2012 23:42 Djodref wrote: @sylver So do you have even your own reasons for possibly voting me today ? Or were you just sheeping like a boss ? Uh, I've said my reasons. I don't find your defenses/ignorance of accusations adequate, I don't like how you're like BLIND LURKER POLICY IS BAD when NOBODY was advocating blind lurker policy (last resort lurker policy) which pretty much was turning the discussion into a very useless one, then you turn around and start aggressively attacking Ini for lurking. Finally I don't like how you accuse Ini of "not scumhunting" when he makes some well-thought-out town-aligned reads (and some null-reads) To make it a more comprehensive list - poor responses to accusations in the past - "You sure are taking policy seriously" -> Attack lurkers aggressively (the contradiction inherent here) - accusing ini of "not scumhunting" when he posted his reads on people, simply because none of those reads were reads of scum (they were townie or null reads, and ini blatantly admitted such) - Emotional levels running awfully high as people mount pressure on you, but not much defense from accusations. - "I don't care if alsn has a FOS on me" is your only defense against him for a long time. Only just now did you even acknowledge his accusations as legit. - Accusing me of sheeping when I've made it clear that I was suspicious of you pretty early. Since then, you've given me more reasons to suspect you. I don't find him specific enough in his accusations and I find them too weak to back up a vote against someone. He has disappeared after this post. I would like to finish this post with a FoS sylver | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 27 2012 02:02 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 01:34 kushm4sta wrote: @debears Djo does look scummy just from my first read through. I need to consider his case in more depth (planning on doing that after d1). I'm not sure he is a viable d1 lynch though. This is because 1 he is active, 2 he is trying to change his meta. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding him. @djodref On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: @Kush Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. I didn't ask you for town reads. I asked you for scum reads. You soft defend sylver in the wishy washiest way possible ("he had some nice reactions") then you give him as your biggest scumread. Stop overdefending yourself. Start being helpful. Kush I haven't looked at your Dauod case yet. I am still going to consider Djo for the fact that I see the inference that he has extra information and that he is capable of roleplaying very well (the noobie card in his two games). I think he's fully capable of acting. However, I do see your point on his activity. If he is scum, it will most likely show day 2. What do you think of my thoughts on Inig? @Djo The post about your defense I mentioned earlier should be coming here in a while @debears I'm tired but I'll try my best... | ||
Djodref
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On October 27 2012 02:10 debears wrote: @Djo About the previous case. I believe this was the most important part and you didn't really address it "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia." Also, why were you so adamant to say that you didn't think I was town, when you have recently stated that you pretty much did ("townie vibes") and most definitely acted like it? If you were town, I feel that you would stick by your read instead of flip flopping when someone gets on you about it @debears Ok. I understand why you are perturbed by this sentence. I've been typing too fast and forgot to add something so it doesn't bring the right sense anymore. Let me bring some context to it and explain you where I have failed. Please look a my whole quote in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... I did this spot while answering Rad. At this point, it was clear that I had a beginning of a town read on you, anyone could have seen it by my actions. Rad also picked it up and said: "Let's do this (with) my friend debears, who is clearly also town!" I wanted to clarify that my read on you was not that sure. So I've tried to say "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean considering him totally town" I forgot to say this totally. Please check it again and see how my whole post makes more sense if you had this totally to my sentence. | ||
Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 27 2012 01:53 sylverfyre wrote: Addendum - it's obvious that NOW Djo's answered some accusations, but it took a long time and he is complaining a lot more loudly about "having been answering accusations instead of making them" an awful lot, when I don't think he really has been spending that much time answering accusations. @sylver I have 7 pages in my filter. Do you think they are all fluff ? Believe me, I've spent some time defending myself... | ||
Djodref
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On October 27 2012 01:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 01:17 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 00:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ Djo On October 26 2012 13:42 Djodref wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On your case Debears: You've reiterated some of what's been said, or what I have observed already. You did present some new information, though. In particular, the following quote that I cannot agree with: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: @Rad Last game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post. Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game. Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. I have a little problem with this notion. You can definitely get a "town vibe" from somebody but not fully consider them town. Always being suspicious and vigilant, especially with no hard evidence like on d1, is wise. I don't think this is a valid point, to be honest. Despite this, Djodref has a mountain against him. One of your new points really stuck out to me: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote: @sylver I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ? I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now. I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute. Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. If Djodref really thinks Rad is scum, why let someone else pursue? If you have a read, go for it. Don't beat around the bush and go off into the distance. Being multi-focused is acceptable, it's confusing why Djo would just "let debears take care of it". It makes no sense, unless he somehow knows Debears is town. In terms of the scumslip, I'm still thinking that the reference to Do0ud being town is a scum tell. His explanation for it, while being entirely plausible, fails to convince me whatsoever. His saying "my main concern is finding mafia" also doesn't sit well. The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref @Cheese Please specify which accusations/questions I couldn't address (please refer to the part in bold font in the spoiler). I'll try to answer adequately to them this time. The text you put in bold regarding my thoughts on you was, specifically, a reference to the point at which Rad was asking you about not changing your arguments on policy lynching. + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 08:13 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 08:07 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 02:26 Clarity_nl wrote: On October 26 2012 02:23 Djodref wrote: I have to go to bed so I'm not going to be able to see the case against me. Sorry, Alsn... @dandel I understand your stance about policy lynch. I guess it's just that we have different experience from our previous games. I liked your explanations but I'm not going to change my mind about it. Moreover, if we have to go for a policy lynch today, I would prefer to lynch a lurker like Inig (semi-lurker) than a complete lurker. Could you please expand upon this? @Clarity I was talking with Dandel about policy lynch, especially the fact that you have to agree early about it or not. I don't think it's good to establish a policy early and I'm not going to change my mind, even if dandel has good arguments for it. Why did you pick on this sentence ? As you can see I basically insta-posted this response when you made your post. Reason being it's a bit wishy-washy. "I agree with you but I'm not gonna change my mind" It doesn't add up dandel has a stance about policy lynching and I have another one. We both have arguments to support our stances, his are good and mine are good (I would say that they are better). I guess it's our different experience which is really defining our opinion about it. I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you. Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped." That's what you sound like with that statement djo. @Rad I don't care, it's an argument about policy lynch. I don't even understand why you are putting such an interest in this. I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my mind about a player or a lynch or something important... What do you think about Inig's posts by the way ? On October 26 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: @Rad by the way, His argument is good by my argument is better. Not going to change my mind. Are you satisfied ? The point that I find most interesting is when Rad says the bolded portion. Rad thinks it's scum mentality. Your only address on the issue is essentially that "I don't care if I look scummy, this discussion is pointless, and my arguement is better". Why are you so unwavering about your opinion in this matter? @ Cheese I have missed your post. Regarding this point, I've have misunderstood Rad's arguments against me. I thought he was calling me out on this point while he was bringing the my stance on a more general level. That's why I found it totally stupid and I didn't want to discuss about it anymore. I've tried to address it in two previous posts. I did not have feedback on the last one so tell me what do you think of it. first one On October 26 2012 14:14 Djodref wrote: @Rad I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all. This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is. dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience. But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it. second one On October 26 2012 20:53 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 14:34 Rad wrote: On October 26 2012 14:21 Djodref wrote: @Rad So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ? Do you have other concerns ? Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ? My original concerns came from the "confidence" ordeal from before. As I found with debears, that can turn out to be a huge ordeal and I'll address it again if I feel the need to. My concerns about your unwillingness to change your stance on something regardless of the arguments provided are still there. To me, as I've stated, this feels like a scummy perspective. I can't see a good reason for a townie to not be open to changing their opinions on something based on further arguments. "No no no not going to budge on this!" feels scummy. "Let me hear your points, ok, I disagree and here's why" feels townie. It was the way you handled the questions. It doesn't matter that it was about just a particular point, or even if that point mattered in the end, but that you were so specific about never changing your opinion on it regardless of the arguments provided. It didn't feel like a townie move, so I can only suspect scum, but furthermore, you've dodged my questions until now. Why? If you can so simply answer them now, why didn't you do it before? You clearly saw them, acknowledged them, but didn't answer them. Instead, you said you were done with me. Going to have to look over all this in more depth tomorrow as I'm getting tired and need to wind down. @Rad I gave more thoughts about your post and I've decided that I should try to address your concern in a better way than my last attempt. I understand that I need to answer the 2 following questions, please correct me if I am wrong 1)Why I was not open to change my stance ? 2)Why I was dodging this question at first ? 1) I wasn't open to change my stance because I think that enforcing a strict lurker policy is a bad strategy for town. I was quite stubborn on this point because I have seem some games where people forgot to scumhunt because they were relying on the policy too much. Except for this point, I believe that I can be quite open minded. I would go as far as to reconsider my position on the policy, given the incredible amount of lurkers that we have in this game. 2)I've been dodging your questions because I didn't understand the nature of your concern. I thought you were asking me about this particular point which I thought I had already addressed. That's why I gave you the same answer again and again. But I understand now that you were more concerned about my general state of mind which would lead me to not discuss anything. I wanted to end this discussion with dandel about the policy because it didn't really matter for me to agree with him or not. For me, disagreeing on policy is natural. What really counts is the general consistency of a player and whether or not he gives good reasons when he changes his mind. I felt like we were done talking about this with dandel and I wanted to close the subject while giving my final stance about it. After all, this is only policy discussion, which should be less relevant than scumhunting discussion. @ Djo That is exactly explanation I was looking for, thank you bringing it to the forefront. The second quote is a bit bulky... Read the part I bolded. If you were worried about people not scumhunting, why be so stubborn? You could have conceded your position on it and people would have moved on to scumhunt. I don't think people simply "forget" to scumhunt due to a lurker policy. That's my concern with your decision: If you want people to scumhunt, why get people riled up over your defense and divert attention from scumhunting? @ Dandel What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card" @Cheese I really believed Rad was overreacting to something minor. I was discussing something quite irrelevant to scumhunting with dandel and I wanted to close the discussion. I thought I was wasting my time on this point and I made it clear that I was done discussing it. So I said I was not going to change my mind about it. I didn't understand at all why this was so important for him. I didn't understand why my explanations where not convenient for him. And honestly I didn't want to spend more time on policy arguments. So I've tried to shut it down. It was a mistake because Rad is aslo quite stubborn The problem is that I was also provoking Alsn around the same time so I guess it didn't help my image at all. | ||
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On October 27 2012 02:42 sylverfyre wrote: No, I think that most of it was accusing other people. Accusing other people is by no means fluff, but it also isn't responding to accusations. sylver Ok, I got your point. What do you think about my defense against your points from your comprehensive list so far ? Anything else I could say ? | ||
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@ sylver Could you please answer my previous questions ? On October 26 2012 23:48 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:33 sylverfyre wrote: Day one but you want someone, who is ostensibly town, to have a better reason than "well his post seems kinda fishy" for an FOS? @sylver Are you saying that Alsn is ostensibly town ? /snip. On October 26 2012 23:14 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Why should scum assist the "lynchwagon" (it is bandwagon by the way) ? If we are going to lynch a scum today, don't you think that they are going to try to go against the bandwagon ? @Rad I cannot fully address your concern about "a townie should always be able to change his mind provided that the arguments presented are good enough". Firstly, this statement is false. Stupid townie or stubborn townie are sometimes not going to change their minds. Secondly, you have extrapolated a particular case to draw conclusions in a more general point of view. I think it's better to find the real motivation behind specific moves than to consider the big picture. But you are free to use the scumhunting style that fits you the best. | ||
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On October 27 2012 02:55 da0ud wrote: I think at the pace Djo is posting it should be easy to get a valid scum read on him at some point in the near future if he is actually scum. He is still quite newbie-ish and trying to change his meta. He felt uncomfortable last game when targeted as mafia and I would expect him to feel the same pressure this game again. I think he is open and provocative when someone attacks him or when he attacks someone. One thing djo. Why are you changing your mind on Ini? I think voting and unvoting and voting again creates too much unnecessary noise. If u were not going to keep your vote you could have voted later. @daoud I've read Ini's reaction to my case again and again and I feel like he is being sincere and honest while posting. I should vote him if he was being only rational because he looks so damn scummy but I have doubts. I need some sleep before taking my decision. I'll go with my guts feeling... | ||
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You are not even voting me right now... Your vote is still on Roco. Did you forget that you were supposed to lynch me in the case he gets modkilled ? Are you also admitting that you are sheeping onto Rad and debears cases ? | ||
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Yeah, I know, I'm pressuring you. No hard feelings Could you please answer my previous questions ? | ||
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I'm really curious about your thoughts on my case against Inig and debears case about Inig. | ||
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I'll say Ini right now because of the emotional part. He has been saying On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote: Why we should lynch Inig First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
Total lack of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote: Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. Emotionally detached from this game + Show Spoiler + When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote: I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote: EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote + You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument + Show Spoiler + This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: /snip As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument. Alright here we go. 1. I deny nothing about not scum hunting. I have only had time to read the thread, and have found town looking players: debears, rad, djo(tho im not sure anymore, more on that later). As I said, I will have time in a few days to do proper scum hunting. If you feel that is not a risk worth taking, so be it. Ill give my scum hunting/reading in my next post. -And, if your going to pull out reasons to lynch me based not on what I have done, but what I havent done, then perhaps you should also look at Oats and Imcasey who havent scumhunted OR contributed (or at least tried) Or posted at all. 2. Ha I am anything BUT emotionally detached from this game. In fact, Ive been getting so emotional I dont think I can or should play mafia games and just go back to watching/reading them. All the logical things I want to say and rules I want to follow fly out the window, and its dumb. /snip I actually almost rage-quit and threw out on-purpose made-up scumslips and such, so I just got to working on homework and stepped away. Im not sure why you said im emotionally detached./snip and now "I don't mind to be lynched" it doesn't add up... | ||
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What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ? Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it ! | ||
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On October 27 2012 05:30 Inigmaticalism wrote: just read thread, popping in before I have my exam, and wont be back until its over, so like 2-3 hours right before lynch. I have no time now to defend myself from the cases against me, but plan to do so when I come back. Will probably be too late but thats how it is. I dont mind if I am lynched. It is bad for town cause Im town, but a lesser evil since Im no special role. ##unvote I voted imcasey over oats(now kush) by pure chance. I picked one name because I only have 1 vote. It appears it was utterly useless, and now has weakened me. The reason I didnt straight out vote Dan is because 1 or more people voting right before deadline out of nowhere scares me, but presuring didnt work the way I did it. So now of course Ill ##Vote: Dandel Ion Like I said I have no time to refute his case on me. I thought it was interesting how he reappeared right after I called him out, and then da0ud came out right after, but im not going to go off of times based on my own history. I also thought da0uds reasons to vote me were sad. If anyone can get any good scum-tell from him besides what was already said I would change and vote for him. See you in a few hours. *And for goodness sake, if Djo is scum hes put himself in an extremely risky situation, but is also being super pro about it. I want to keep him alive and see what he can do with his energy for defending himself put to the use of more scum-hunting. *and no more FOS this close to deadline. straight up vote. @Kush He says it here... | ||
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Sorry, I forgot about you IRL situation... | ||
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No, I'm not comfortable with any of the lynches to be honest. I'm looking at their filter over and over again and try to find some little clues... Regarding Inig, I should vote him if I was only a rational machine (no scumhunting at the beginning, wishy washy on Cheese, voting imcasey unexpectedly, the slip you have found, etc...) but I feel him as sincere in his posts. Not sure why he claimed though. Regarding daoud, I have no reasons to vote for him at the exception of his hasty vote. | ||
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On October 27 2012 08:16 Rad wrote: I've now read through inig's filter and debear's case on inig. I get a super confused feel from inig, but not a scummy feel. I feel like he just doesn't know how he's supposed to act and he's very open about it. He lays out his thoughts for everyone to read. I feel like we should do the same with him as we're doing with djo, give him a chance to talk more and he should slip if he's scum. da0ud seems much less likely to slip if he's scum. He's more concise and not emotional. Furthermore, so far in this game da0ud is only active at times opposite now (no idea about his other games). I don't see any posts in his filter around this time (7am HK). Is it likely he won't be around to discuss lynches? I feel that might be an important consideration here as inig would be around for lynches in the future (or so he claims). @Rad lol If we lynch daoud for these reasons, it would be the weakest reasons ever given to justify a lynch... | ||
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On October 27 2012 08:31 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 08:30 Djodref wrote: Seriously if Roco or imcasey are coming, we should just lynch them Shouldn't we let them get modkilled if they do nothing at this point? If they show up to vote, what do you think we should do? @Rad Sorry, I was not clear. I was talking about the case where they come in this thread and drop a vote. Otherwise, we'll see how the host manages them. | ||
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What do you think of Cheese right now ? Why did you claim ? | ||
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Why are you so calm about the idea of being lynched ? | ||
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I don't want to lynch you today. Problem is I don't want to lynch daoud neither. What should I do ? | ||
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Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far... | ||
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If you check my filter last game where I was mafia last game and my filter in this game,I bet that they really look different. | ||
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You still didn't have answered some of my questions... On October 27 2012 03:03 Djodref wrote: I'm going to bed right now (for real this time^^). I'll sleep for few hours then come back... @ sylver Could you please answer my previous questions ? Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:48 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:33 sylverfyre wrote: Day one but you want someone, who is ostensibly town, to have a better reason than "well his post seems kinda fishy" for an FOS? @sylver Are you saying that Alsn is ostensibly town ? /snip. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:14 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: Early on, Djo, I felt a contradiction from you based on a combination of you criticizing the lurker policy + calling out a lurker. More recently, you've switched gears a lot and been unsatisfied in defenses mounted against your case. Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. I dunno if mods have more replacements lined up, I sure hope so. Having 3 playerdrops happen on day 1 is really depressing to me. Why should scum assist the "lynchwagon" (it is bandwagon by the way) ? If we are going to lynch a scum today, don't you think that they are going to try to go against the bandwagon ? /snip | ||
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I think we are not going to here from Roco anymore. I'm not going to draw any conclusion for his two weird posts because they are a just a newbie tell for me. | ||
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Why are you nor FoSing Alsn ? He was also pushing for a daoud's lynch iirc... I found strange that you forgot him in your recap. | ||
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On October 27 2012 01:51 Alsn wrote: Also, I think an argument can be made for the usefulness of lynching da0ud in order to find out if Inig is scum or not. If it turns out that da0ud is scum then it almost certainly confirms Inig as innocent(or at worst a SK). This because I just cannot fathom a scenario where a scum D1 bus would be done that poorly. In my mind that's a pretty good reason to find out what da0ud flips, especially since I find him suspicious. The risk is that he'll flip green which wouldn't necessarily be very helpful, but at this point I don't personally see a better option. @ Alsn So daoud has flipped blue. What do you get of this ? | ||
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@ kush I don't think that a lot of people know you in this game so I think you should give everyone some links to your filters from previous games. I want also to know if you have some scumreads to share with us. I'm also expecting a lot from Alsn and Ini today. I'm also watching sylver closely right now. | ||
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On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch. My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig. /snip @ Cheese At this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch. | ||
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debears is also playing in the pony themed mafia game going on right now. Check the player list here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376110 Pretty sure that he was talking about the pony game and not ours. Does anyone look really scummy for you during D1 ? | ||
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Look what we have from nackhtjogger right now. On October 27 2012 12:09 nackhtjogger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 10:31 kushm4sta wrote: Is debears like this every game? It's not how I remember him. And yeah debears you basically buttfucked us during the first half of day 1 when you had your little dickmeasuring contest with Rad, which NOTHING came out of. Nothing except spamming the thread to hell and making it unreadable. I don't like this post Hello, I should be asleep and I'll correct this in a few moments. Just wanted to say hello and that I'm in the process of reading the thread. I'll be back in 5 hours or so with my assessment of the situation. I'm a big Street Fighter fan btw, love the flavor. On October 27 2012 16:35 nackhtjogger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? Gave me the lolz 5 hours later: nice assessment. I would tend to agree that our D1 could be ridiculously hilarious but more from a mafia point of view. So, nackhtjogger, if you are town, could you tell us what you have found interesting during this D1 ? We could really use a pair of new eyes right now Can I call you Nacht by the way ? Or do you prefer Jogger ? | ||
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Sorry, I have totally misread your post... | ||
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On October 27 2012 21:52 kushm4sta wrote: I know he's playing in the game and so am I... the game hasn't started yet though. He needed a fresh breath of pony mafia air because of the depressing shit that happened in this thread. Djo I have not really put a lot of time into reading the thread and looking at filters, but my primary suspect just from preliminary observations is you. I think your indecision at lynch time is a huge scumtell. It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. If you were town, and you really thought that none of them were scum, you would have tried to push someone who you actually thought was scum. But you did nothing except ask sylver endless questions with really no point to them. @ Kush I have said quite early that I didn't want to lynch daoud. I've changed my mind on Inig given his latest posts. I had no time to consider a better lynch target. Roco would have been fine (policy lynching) but we were all assuming that he was going to be modkilled. | ||
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@ Cheese Here is a quote from you. On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese | ||
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On October 27 2012 21:52 kushm4sta wrote: I know he's playing in the game and so am I... the game hasn't started yet though. He needed a fresh breath of pony mafia air because of the depressing shit that happened in this thread. Djo I have not really put a lot of time into reading the thread and looking at filters, but my primary suspect just from preliminary observations is you. I think your indecision at lynch time is a huge scumtell. It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. If you were town, and you really thought that none of them were scum, you would have tried to push someone who you actually thought was scum. But you did nothing except ask sylver endless questions with really no point to them. @ Kush scumslip much ? | ||
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Regarding my flip-flopping about Inig, I thought that he didn't deserve a lynch after his answer to my case. Another problem is that he has said and done some scummy things but I am feeling him being sincere when he posts. I didn't know what to do with him, hence all my wish-washiness about him. | ||
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On October 27 2012 22:55 kushm4sta wrote: haha @ all the people theorizing scumteams. you're being dumb @ Kush If you are town, I recommend you to refrain from posting this kind of stuff. I have been provocative in this game and I regret it. You could be tunneled forever for this kind of post. | ||
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On October 27 2012 23:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: "That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ Cheese Here is a quote from you. On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese I appreciate your comment, Djodref. A lynch on you was "not possible" so close to the deadline when I returned (~45-30mins before lynch). I did want to get you lynched, but convincing everyone in such a time frame was not possible with everyone on Da0ud/inig. In my vote post of Da0ud I stated clearly that I still considered you highly suspicious, but I had to decide if Da0ud or Inig was a better case. What use is protesting everyone else, "calling them stupid" as you suggest, and pushing my case on you? That is simply advocating chaos in my book, and it's not my way of thinking; I will not flame the entire town for considering two other options than what I would rather pursue so close to deadline. My efforts were best spent deciding who was scummier. Pushing you till the end, and not weighing in on the debate at hand was illogical. This being said, you are still my biggest scumread and my FoS from d1 still applies to you. @ Cheese I think you should have made this kind of explanation at that time. Didn't you feel a little frustrated ? | ||
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On October 27 2012 23:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 23:23 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 21:52 kushm4sta wrote: I know he's playing in the game and so am I... the game hasn't started yet though. He needed a fresh breath of pony mafia air because of the depressing shit that happened in this thread. Djo I have not really put a lot of time into reading the thread and looking at filters, but my primary suspect just from preliminary observations is you. I think your indecision at lynch time is a huge scumtell. It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. If you were town, and you really thought that none of them were scum, you would have tried to push someone who you actually thought was scum. But you did nothing except ask sylver endless questions with really no point to them. @ Kush scumslip much ? How is that a scumslip, Djo? @ Kush It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. You could have reproached to have known daoud's alignment. But it looks like that you know Ini's alignment. | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 00:47 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 23:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: "That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ Cheese Here is a quote from you. On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese I appreciate your comment, Djodref. A lynch on you was "not possible" so close to the deadline when I returned (~45-30mins before lynch). I did want to get you lynched, but convincing everyone in such a time frame was not possible with everyone on Da0ud/inig. In my vote post of Da0ud I stated clearly that I still considered you highly suspicious, but I had to decide if Da0ud or Inig was a better case. What use is protesting everyone else, "calling them stupid" as you suggest, and pushing my case on you? That is simply advocating chaos in my book, and it's not my way of thinking; I will not flame the entire town for considering two other options than what I would rather pursue so close to deadline. My efforts were best spent deciding who was scummier. Pushing you till the end, and not weighing in on the debate at hand was illogical. This being said, you are still my biggest scumread and my FoS from d1 still applies to you. @ Cheese I think you should have made this kind of explanation at that time. Didn't you feel a little frustrated ? Of course I was frustrated. I come back to the thread and votes are stacked high on two other people. But is it really constructive to moan and groan about it? No. As I stated, energy was rather spent contributing to the lynch at hand. If you think crowding the thread with "My god people, why do we have these guys up for lynch?" is a better alternative, then you are sadly mistake. @ Cheese I don't see any kind of frustration in this post. On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch. My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig. On Inig: Honestly, I have no idea why people suddenly started piling on top of him. I found him -slightly- suspicious after his emotional outburst and semi-lurking. However, since then he has been asking questions (to myself included) and improving his post count. The cases against him are weak, imo. I've read through them I don't see much of a reason to lynch him. His vote on Imcasey I don't view as scum-intentioned; it was an attempt to draw out the lurker. I don't think scum would be that bold, because a vote like that would (and surely did) draw attention. That is not at all blending in. His recent vote on Dandel, however, doesn't make sense from any role viewpoint I think, so I don't know what to think about that. I'll be reading more into his posts about Dandel later. On Da0ud: I skimmed through the cases concerning him, and by my own standards think he is more scummy-looking than Inig. In particular, this post about the modkill. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 23:07 da0ud wrote: One thing worries me and seems to have caught no ones attention. Clarity has been modkilled!! We are already one less town!! And he was posting actual content. We all saw the modkill. This isn't contributing anything. Why talk about it? A townie died, there's nothing we can do about it, especially since he basically suicided. This is a useless topic. Then, there is the entire percentage-based town read on Djo. I believe Kush mentioned this. 90% town on the first day? I most surely don't see it that way, and a 90% town read based on little concrete evidence? I don't get it. In addition, he's a semi-lurker / blending in. There is also an entire meta-arguement against him as well. I cannot address this as I know nothing of his previous game meta. This being said, I find Da0ud to be much more scummier than Inig. ##Vote: Da0ud I apologize for not being here sooner and for this post being somewhat rushed; I had a personal matter to attend to that required my immediate assistance. In my eyes, it looks like you didn't really care about was going to get lynched. | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:57 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 00:52 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 23:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On October 27 2012 23:23 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 21:52 kushm4sta wrote: I know he's playing in the game and so am I... the game hasn't started yet though. He needed a fresh breath of pony mafia air because of the depressing shit that happened in this thread. Djo I have not really put a lot of time into reading the thread and looking at filters, but my primary suspect just from preliminary observations is you. I think your indecision at lynch time is a huge scumtell. It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. If you were town, and you really thought that none of them were scum, you would have tried to push someone who you actually thought was scum. But you did nothing except ask sylver endless questions with really no point to them. @ Kush scumslip much ? How is that a scumslip, Djo? @ Kush It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and wanted to gain town points by opposing both lynches. You could have reproached to have known daoud's alignment. But it looks like that you know Ini's alignment. I think I see what you mean now, but he's explaining what he believes is your thought process / motivation, not his own. I can't really claim that to be a scumslip. @ Cheese townie post: it seems like you knew that both of them would flip town and blabla scumslip post: It seems like you know that both of them were going to be town and blabla But I would agree that it is not a big scumtelll. | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:02 kushm4sta wrote: I am kind of busy today jacking off and I don't feel liek making cases ATM. I will present my cases before the day post in case I get killed. Also thanks for all your shitty suspicion. I hope it keeps me from getting nk. @ Kush Come on, you know that you never get nkilled when you roll town You reads are not so good (I'm referring to Looney especially) and you are always a mislynch potential... I don't remember you mentioning the possibility for you to get NKed in the Looney game, even during N3. This one post totally fits your scum meta. | ||
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On October 28 2012 01:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Why do you find it necessary to have me frustrated? I wasn't going to project frustration or anger it in this case, because it isn't constructive in the least bit. One of those two people were going to be lynched no matter what I did; I just wanted to steer it in, what I believed, the better direction. I cared about who was being lynched: The one I saw as being scummier looking. @ Cheese You admitted yourself being frustrated at that time. I'm expecting to feel it when I read your post. I'm expecting no more than a little comment like: "I'm regretting that I cannot lynch Djo today blabla". I'm just seeing you stating that I'm suspicious and proceeding to compare daoud and Inig posts. You didn't seem to have any problem with that and that irks me. | ||
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On October 28 2012 01:13 kushm4sta wrote: @nk mention I didn't mention it in looney. I did mention it in LC. djo is scum btw guys @ Kush If you are town, I have bad news for you because your reads are one more time completely wrong. First daoud and then me. @ possible vig If you feel like it, just shoot him | ||
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Sorry kush for the last posts, I went a little too far... No hard feelings I hope <3 | ||
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On October 28 2012 01:13 kushm4sta wrote: @nk mention I didn't mention it in looney. I did mention it in LC. djo is scum btw guys It's true guys, he also does this kind of shit as town On October 06 2012 00:27 kushm4sta wrote: also ty kreb your suspicion saves me from nk Here is a quote from kush from the Liquid City game where he was town... | ||
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So if you have some points against me that you feel that I didn't correctly addressed, I have a feeling that you guys are considering defense as important as scumhunting so I'm willing to defend myself as much as I can now. @ Kush I'm not totally sold on you being scum right now: there is still a possibility for you to be town in my opinion. @ everyone I would recommend everyone to be wary because it could be very easy for mafia to mislynch Kush right now if he is town. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I was mafia in my last game and we benefited from the greatest mislynch ever on D2 because nobody took the time to think about the lynch twice. | ||
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On October 28 2012 00:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 00:47 Djodref wrote: On October 27 2012 23:40 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: "That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ Cheese Here is a quote from you. On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese I appreciate your comment, Djodref. A lynch on you was "not possible" so close to the deadline when I returned (~45-30mins before lynch). I did want to get you lynched, but convincing everyone in such a time frame was not possible with everyone on Da0ud/inig. In my vote post of Da0ud I stated clearly that I still considered you highly suspicious, but I had to decide if Da0ud or Inig was a better case. What use is protesting everyone else, "calling them stupid" as you suggest, and pushing my case on you? That is simply advocating chaos in my book, and it's not my way of thinking; I will not flame the entire town for considering two other options than what I would rather pursue so close to deadline. My efforts were best spent deciding who was scummier. Pushing you till the end, and not weighing in on the debate at hand was illogical. This being said, you are still my biggest scumread and my FoS from d1 still applies to you. @ Cheese I think you should have made this kind of explanation at that time. Didn't you feel a little frustrated ? Of course I was frustrated. I come back to the thread and votes are stacked high on two other people. But is it really constructive to moan and groan about it? No. As I stated, energy was rather spent contributing to the lynch at hand. If you think crowding the thread with "My god people, why do we have these guys up for lynch?" is a better alternative, then you are sadly mistake. @ Cheese Well, if you really think that the two other people are less worth a lynch than your top scumread (which what your case I think, given the poor interest you had in daoud before you decided to lynch him), I think it is your responsibility as town to stand up and push your lynch. I'm sorry but I'm thinking that you are the one mistaken here. No matter how late it is in the thread, you should try to push your top scumread. Otherwise, mafia is just going to push the townies everyday. | ||
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gg sylver ! | ||
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On October 25 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote: I feel like asking everyone a loaded question, but one that makes sense for a newbie game: If you're not completely new to mafia (maybe you've played a few games IRL/elsewhere, or this isn't your first game on TL) What's your favorite role to play in mafia? I feel like I'm one of few who actively enjoys being a vanilla townie more than scum or a power-townie. It feels that much better when you're part of a victory! Maybe I'm wrong in this being an uncommon choice of favorite role, though. I would say mafia was trying to snipe a blue and managed to do it. Regarding Kush death, I would say vig or SK. Both makes sense. But jailkeeper + vig + detective seems imba so I think we have a SK. | ||
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On October 28 2012 08:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: MY OPINION ON DJODREF A compilation of quotes, and reasons why I believe he is guilty By: Mr. Cheesecake _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Scumslip + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote: Here is the infamous scumslip by Djo, he refers to Da0ud explicitly as town (who we now know IS town). There is little to say here: How does Djo know Da0ud is town? He doesn't even have a reason to think he's town. He even votes for Da0ud which I will address later.Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:09 da0ud wrote: On October 25 2012 17:52 Djodref wrote: I'm insisting on this because it was not my mentality at all at the beginning of NMMXVIII, you case see this in my quotes in debear previous posts. I want the "scared" newbies (like daoud) to boost their confidence and go scumhunt. I am not scared anymore... And I will hunt you down this time if I have to daoud Good ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? Furthermore, Djo provides us with the weakest defense for a scumslip ever: On October 25 2012 18:40 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 18:30 da0ud wrote: EBWOP : How would you already know I am town ? I don't know already if you are town or not. I've spoken too fast because I was thinking of our last game where you were town. It was a slip, but not a scumslip Regarding Roco, I understand your hunch but he reminds me your first weird posts last game. He is suspicious but he doesn't deserve red bold font yet imo ^^ All he says is "Not a scumslip, please move along" and plays it off like no big deal with a characteristic smiley and ^^. This explanation is nowhere near adequate enough to address the issue. Town can slip and mafia can slip.You have to pay attention to the context of the sentence. I'm saying that I'm not going to defend him this game, in contrast of our previous game where I knew he was town, I guess my brain makes a wrong connection and there is a slip. My explanation was adequate the first time by the way. Also I would like you to check my filter of my last game where I was mafia and find a slip in my filter. There is none because I have really paid attention to what I post. It's not the case in this game. “Are you Mafia?" Question + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote: @djodref To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected. @Roco I have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ? Are you mafia ? I first picked up on this in my original FoS post. Why would you ask someone explicitly if they are mafia? What is even the PURPOSE of this? Is he attempting to arouse suspicion for Roco? On October 26 2012 01:12 Djodref wrote: How on God's green Earth would asking someone if they are mafia make them uncomfortable? All a scum player would need to rebuke it is: No. There is zero town motivation for asking someone if they are mafia.Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:00 sylverfyre wrote: And Djo, you claim "no i asked him two questions" when both questions are basically the same. debears case against Rad is developing interestingly, but Rad has a point - why are you trying so hard to save the lurkers? @sylver I'm sorry but not wanting to look suspicious is totally natural from a townie, especially from a total newbie. Adding the second question was only to make him uncomfortable if he was mafia. There is also no mafia motivation for it. This point is not relevant in my opinion. Anyway, I wanted to pressure him, it was also sarcastic. Being called mafia in plain sight makes you feel uncomfortable regardless of how easy you can brush it off. His Questions about Inig + Show Spoiler + It is obvious from the very beginning that Djo is suspicious of Ini. He asks everyone about what they think of him. Firstly: Why would Djo care what anyone else thinks? If his scum read were strong enough, he'd have the confidence (there's that word again...) to make a case without input from a third party. Secondly: He sometimes asks these questions in context of something else, as if to brush off some accusation against him. On October 25 2012 18:51 Djodref wrote: @daoud What do you think about Ini ? On October 25 2012 23:21 Djodref wrote: @debears If you are around, I would like to know what do you think about Inig first posts. On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote: I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? He throws out two questions, one of them being about inig. What does Inig have anything to do with the discussion at hand? The only reason I can see for it is an attempt to derail the thread into something about Inig. On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote: My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such). The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you. So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref. I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @Alsn I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me What do you think about Inig ? He completely brushes off the FoS from Alsn and asks about Inig instead. On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote: AGAIN, brushing off the FoS from Alsn, in favor of pursing interests of Ini.Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. These questions are nothing more than attempts to deflect discussion, away from him or otherwise, onto something else. I was trying to push my scumread. I wanted to see what people had to say about Ini because it could have been evidence against them for later if Ini had flipped red. Brushing off Alsn FoS like this was regrettable but I did try to address some other attacks against me in the meantime. An Appeal to Emotion + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote: On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote: @debears You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard" Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard. You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day. You are advocating chaos. If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything. ##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 This is an outright appeal to emotion. He's feeling bad about last game, sure. Why bring it up? It bears no significance to anything in the thread other than making us feel bad for him. He even gives Debears a <3... really? debears asked me a question, I answered why. I gave debears some <3 in my other game when I was town. 180 on Inig + Show Spoiler + On October 27 2012 08:56 Djodref wrote: Please note that this is the entire vote post.## Vote daoud Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far... This is 100% completely contradictory to everything Djo has previously said / advocated about Inig. He had a case on Inig, he was always asking those questions about him. Inig was, apparently, his biggest scum read. Why the sudden 180 degree turn and vote for Da0ud? It makes no sense whatsoever, and his explanation for dropping the vote was "I'm really starting to doubt myself about Inig's case..." and his reason for voting Da0ud is: "his involvement hasn't been great." Hardly enough to justify a revote. I've made a case against Ini. He has answered to it and started to contribute in a better way so I have changed my mind about him. Stop cherry-picking and go read my filter. To be more precise, I'm still thinking there are scummy things in Ini's filter but I was feeling him honest and sincere. How can I possibly vote a guy when I have a feeling like this ? Regarding daoud, I did not want to lynch him. My vote on daoud was just to avoid a modkill... + Show Spoiler + On October 27 2012 08:00 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ? Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it ! Here he advocates that I choose a side on the Da0ud-Inig debate, which I eventually did once I returned. Also: why is he so paranoid about my vote on him? On October 27 2012 17:53 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch. My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig. /snip @ Cheese At this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch. This post contradicts the previous. He explicitly TOLD me to weigh in on the debate and cast my vote for one of the others. Why the heck is he calling me out for it? Is this not what he asked for from me? On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. And here Djo is trying to further his case about my vote of Da0ud. There is a portion after the lynch where I try to explain to him that my biggest scumread was still on him. That pursuing his case at the time would have produced nothing; that I voted for Da0ud because he looked scummier than Inig; Check either of our filters about it. (page 38ish of the thread). He seems sour that I have a scumread / FoS on him and a vote most of the day. This entire ploy to discredit me is baseless, and likely an attempt to thwart my future attempts at scum hunting him. I'm not trying to discredit you. I'm scumhunting. General Thread Clutter (my opinion) + Show Spoiler + Admittedly some of it is defense, his filter is huge and he's talking on absolutely every page. The thread doesn't need to know every thought that pops in your head. A large majority is just casual conversation without his own input on certain subjects. Is this an attempt to bury logical arguements? He's trying to post a lot to seem like he's contributing, but I find most of his questions/concerns pointless. Take the "scumtell on Kush" post. I don't think anyone in the thread thought it was a scumtell, but he made a fuss over it. I admit that I clutter the thread. Just trying to be active and to generate discussion in lurker-land... A Final Note + Show Spoiler + Look at who Djodref has suspicions (FoS's) on. Me and Sylverfyre. I oppose him, and Sylverfyre has tunneled him hard. His best scum reads are on people that find him highly suspicious! What does this say? He's scared. He's scared and replying by digging up any dirt he can on us. After synthesizing all of what you have posted Djo, the jig is up. You are SCUM I'm going to start my day by addressing this case. First things first, even if your case is not bad, the conclusion is wrong. I'm town so I would like you to be as objective as possible when you read my answers. Please find my defense in bold font in the spoiler. | ||
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On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote: Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver? Is there something you want to tell us? @ dandel Please show me in my post where I'm "so certain". I'm using conditional verbal forms... | ||
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On October 28 2012 09:53 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Djo I find it odd that you suddenly find a reason for Sylver being killed and flipping blue so quickly. I believe this indicates that you were thinking about it beforehand. It's also odd that specifically Sylver, the one who was tunneling you so hard late d1, is found dead. Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 09:31 Djodref wrote: By the way, if mafia is blue sniping, I would think that they have nobody on their ass right now. An attempt to divert attention away from yourself. @ Cheese Take out your biased confirmation goggles. | ||
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Kush being the mafia KP ? Are you serious ? Why would the mafia get rid of a player that almost everybody was FoSing ? Moreover, with Kush posting style, it was almost a guaranteed mislynch. Regarding sylverfer, I didn't see any reasons for the mafia to kill him at first. So I quickly assumed (assume as in making an hypothesis) that is could be blue snipping. I was looking for a breadcrumb in sylver's filter and I knew already this post. I was just sharing my thoughts about it. It was fast but seriously timing posts arguments are weak. Now, regarding your vote, are you using Thrawn meta to incriminate me as an SK ? And is this the only reason ? Please think about it again. Please tell me about all your reasons to vote for me. And lynching me for being scum or SK ? Tell me the reasons why I should be scum and the reasons why I should be SK. I'm not sure but I'm guessing the playing styles are different... Regarding the claim might come later, we are playing this game in lurkland, remember ? Please reconsider your reasons, because I'm a fucking townie, and fear that you I everybody are going to vote me way too fast, without thinking about it twice and go back to lurking. | ||
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On October 28 2012 20:59 Alsn wrote: Also, I'd like to point out that scum killed someone who was suspecting Djo no matter what. Both kush and sylver were outspoken anti-Djoists, even to the point where sylver looked scummy because that was the only thing he contributed to in the entire thread. I still think this is pretty sketchy territory since we don't know the motivations for why they were killed but I think we can safely assume that their suspicions of Djo probably was a deciding factor. What we need to figure out is whether or not he's being framed or not. @ Alsn Do you think that mafia could have killed Kush ? Given what happened in the thread during N1, I'm pretty sure that is SK or Vig work, trying to take down one mafia. | ||
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I have just been playing a game where I was mafia and kush was town. I know what I am talking about. I don't see any mafia team wanting to kill Kush. This guy has an incredible mislynch potential and his reads are not so good. I cannot be sure about it but I would say like there is a 1% chance that mafia has actually killed him. Can you confirm me that you have no experience as a mafia player (not including this game of course) ? | ||
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Mafia Quicktopic | ||
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I cannot accept your vote. You have to vote me because your think I am SK. In this case please bring up a case against me proving that I am SK. OR You have to vote against me because you think I am scum. Same, provide your case. Also you should start looking for other potential mafia players because I'm gonna flip green. | ||
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On October 28 2012 21:40 Dandel Ion wrote: What Alsn said. I don't know which one is the scum kill. It's more likely it's Sylver, that I admit. But in no way, shape or form is it IMPOSSIBLE that Kush was the scum kp. If I wanted to speculate up reasons for it, I could come up with some. But it would be pretty useless specuation, and most importantly, fluffing up the thread. You unwillingness to even aknowledge the possibility that kush was scum-killed, reads to me like you have relevant information on the subject. That's why I think you were involved in one of the kills. If you're SK, you most likely killed Kush, if you're scum, I could see a reason for you to kill either. You're right that this lynch is pretty fucking important. That's why I don't want to waste time twiddling my thumbs like you all seem to prefer. We're already full of lurkers that probably don't read the thread more than once per day. So what rationale do you have for NOT pushing your reads early? If you wait until right before the flip, it won't do shit, because 3/4ths of the game won't even be there. Ergo, I think I'm pretty damn justified in pushing my read early. @ dandel I don't have relevant information, I have experience... Check the mafiaQT from my previous game. Please check how we chose the NK and how we talked about Kush. | ||
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Mafia wants to keep that kind of players in the game. 1% chance of him being killed by the mafia. I don't understand why you cannot see it. | ||
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I'm not sure about Cheese anymore. I'm null on him right now. His case shows good scumhunting efforts, even if they go in the wrong direction. Him using a "djo attempt to discredit me" paragraph in his case is a towntell for me because it shows that he has natural sense of innocence (in opposition of the usual self-culpability). If he still believes I am scum after my answers to his case, I want him to look for my potential scumbuddies. No by association by the way because I am town and anyway you should wait for me to flip to start this kind of thing. I want dandel to decide if I am scum or SK and bring consequent proofs to his case. I'm very very wary of Nackht. He has given us nothing (expect him being sure that Kush was scum) so far and I don't understand why a town replacement would be retaining info like he does. The other thing speaking against him is that I don't have a strong scumread at the moment and it makes the probability for the lurkers to be mafia higher. So I hope that we have a modkill on Roco today. I'm going to vote pressure him to make nackht talk. Keeping this vote on him until he gives us a complete assessment of what is going on here according to him. He promised it but he has just given us a "lol" so far. ##Vote nackhtjogger | ||
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Thank you I was feeling very very lonely... I need to check dandel's filter right now. But I would like to add that his vote on me for being SK or scum makes suddenly more sense. If he is mafia, he knows that I'm not mafia, hence him accusing me of being the SK much more easily than a town would be. I didn't understand how he came to this supported by thrawn's meta. | ||
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On October 28 2012 22:59 Alsn wrote: I agree that nackh's participation has been worrisome at best but other than asking him to talk I'm not sure what we can do. I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to lynching him but only if Dandel turns out to not be an option. But we also need to consider the very real possibility that Roco gets modkilled and flips town. Sure he could be scum and hope is great and all but we can't in any way distance ourselves from the possibility that we are only 4 town left in the game. @ Alsn I'm pretty sure that we have a 5vs3vs1 situation. As I said, jailkeeper+detective+vig seems imb4... This into mind, I've been looking at the players list and I've tried to find the 4 other townies. I'm still leaning town on Rad and debears. I was having doubts about you but you look like your town self right now My guts are telling me that Inig is a newbie town right now and I'm going to follow my guts on him for the time going. Cheese is null right now but I don't like his "safe" play and him cherry-picking in my filter. dandel was null so far. So it makes the chances for Roco and Nackht to be mafia quite high in my opinion. That's why I would prefer a modkill to a replacement. A mafia player being replaced at the end of D2 with a 2 post filter is just too good for the mafia. | ||
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On October 28 2012 23:08 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 23:02 Djodref wrote: @ Alsn Thank you I was feeling very very lonely... I need to check dandel's filter right now. But I would like to add that his vote on me for being SK or scum makes suddenly more sense. If he is mafia, he knows that I'm not mafia, hence him accusing me of being the SK much more easily than a town would be. I didn't understand how he came to this supported by thrawn's meta. That was not even thrawn's own meta, he was heavily coached that game. I'd assume you coach will have told you the same thing thrawn heard. @ dandel If you think that I am SK, please bring a proper case against me. Please show specifically how thrawn posts and mine are similar. | ||
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And I would love you to bring more arguments to it. | ||
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I cannot accept you saying that I'm scum or SK. In my opinion, SK is played differently because you don't have a team and you don't have extra information as SK. If you are saying that I'm scum, stick with it and go find my scumbuddies. It is going to be difficult because I have none. Also I would recommend you not being stubborn and read my defense against your case again. Could I have your comments on it ? | ||
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On October 28 2012 23:36 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 23:35 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese I cannot accept you saying that I'm scum or SK. In my opinion, SK is played differently because you don't have a team and you don't have extra information as SK. If you are saying that I'm scum, stick with it and go find my scumbuddies. It is going to be difficult because I have none. Also I would recommend you not being stubborn and read my defense against your case again. Could I have your comments on it ? So you WANT people to make association cases? I'm not sure you understand how this works. Also, if your buddies are both lurkers, that's also an explanaition for the lack of defense. I don't want him to make association case. I want him to go scumhunting. I don't think he is going to change his mind about me anymore so I want him to look for other possible mafia. Better start now than after I flip green | ||
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Your post is reaching dangerous OMGUS levels. If you are town, you are not helping yourself. You should better decide if I am town or SK and bring your case. | ||
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On October 28 2012 23:27 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I have a few minutes so here are my reads: Djo is scum or SK - I am sure of it. I have little reason to vote anyone else at this point Dandel is leaning scummy for me; he completely avoided one of my questions: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 01:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ Dandel What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card" I find this especially odd since you've advocated against using the noobie card, then proceed to use the confused card which is just as bad. Rad is leaning town for me. Although that association case between me + Kush bore no merit at all. Debears. Hard to tell. Pretty null, especially since we haven't heard from him in a while. Nackhtogger. He's afk. Roco. He's afk. Inig. He has a few walls of text that are exactly that: Walls of text. A little scumhunting here or there but I don't see a reason that I should consider town as of yet. Alsn. I see his case on Dandel. I agree that he looks fairly scummy at this point. But I'm sticking by my Djo lynch unless someone can seriously convince me otherwise. I'm very interested in hearing from the two lurkers, Inig, and Debears on their thoughts on everyone including myself but especially Djo/Dandel. To get this out of the way: ##Vote: Djodref @ Cheese You cannot accuse me of being an SK. Don't you remember that you have used my slip in your case against me ? I should have more information than you in this game. The SK had no access to the info that daoud was scum. You are going back on my scumlist, Mr.Cheese. Also I found it strange that you have made no comments on my defense against your case. You sure are not open to change your mind about me. | ||
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On October 28 2012 23:53 Dandel Ion wrote: Yes, Master Djo. The world revolves around you. Well, in this game, it actually might. Considering that nobody else is playing. Yeah, I know, this game is pretty lame... What do you think about a Nackht lynch ? | ||
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Do you have any breadcrumb to back you up ? At first sight, i believed your claim. I don't think killing kush was so bad because we would have lost a lot of time mislynching him today. I'm pretty sure mafia was already pushing for a lynch on him during N1. | ||
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Regarding the part where I'm trying to discredit you. I just find it awkward that you are listening to you top scumread when he calls you to change your vote from him to choose between two other guys you haven't been looking into. I agree that I don't look consistent on this myself. Anyway, I understand that you have enough reasons to believe that I am scum. It's regrettable that you are wrong so I think that's the best for both of us is to not waste too much time on this. I'm very curious to see who is going to be your next target. Please surprise me Could I ask you what do you think of Nackht ? | ||
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It's ok, you being vig and shooting kush makes a lot of sense. I believe you. Don't worry about is too much, I think it is going to help us. Even as town, Kush can be pretty disruptive, especially when everyone is coming at him. I think that mafia was planning to mislynch him today. Please notice how Kush decided to go after sylverfire after all. Maybe they switched last minute onto sylver to make kush look even worse. This or blue snipping, I don't know... | ||
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I hope to have a lot of posts from Ini and nackhtjogger when I wake up. | ||
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On October 29 2012 00:31 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 23:57 Djodref wrote: On October 28 2012 23:27 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I have a few minutes so here are my reads: Djo is scum or SK - I am sure of it. I have little reason to vote anyone else at this point Dandel is leaning scummy for me; he completely avoided one of my questions: On October 27 2012 01:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @ Dandel What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card" I find this especially odd since you've advocated against using the noobie card, then proceed to use the confused card which is just as bad. Rad is leaning town for me. Although that association case between me + Kush bore no merit at all. Debears. Hard to tell. Pretty null, especially since we haven't heard from him in a while. Nackhtogger. He's afk. Roco. He's afk. Inig. He has a few walls of text that are exactly that: Walls of text. A little scumhunting here or there but I don't see a reason that I should consider town as of yet. Alsn. I see his case on Dandel. I agree that he looks fairly scummy at this point. But I'm sticking by my Djo lynch unless someone can seriously convince me otherwise. I'm very interested in hearing from the two lurkers, Inig, and Debears on their thoughts on everyone including myself but especially Djo/Dandel. To get this out of the way: ##Vote: Djodref @ Cheese You cannot accuse me of being an SK. Don't you remember that you have used my slip in your case against me ? I should have more information than you in this game. The SK had no access to the info that daoud was scum. You are going back on my scumlist, Mr.Cheese. Also I found it strange that you have made no comments on my defense against your case. You sure are not open to change your mind about me. I have you pinned as scum right now. You are anything but town. In the off chance that you aren't scum, you are the SK. The word "Maybe" was in order in my post. That being said, I read your regards on my case on you; and I'll address them at a later time (preparing for hurricane Sandy here, east coast ftl). @Dandel You are completely cracking under pressure right now, and walking a fine line. I suggest you stop flaming and produce something coherent. A case on your best scum read, perhaps. You aren't doing anything constructive. My vote is for Djodref, but if you continue this scummy behavior I'd consider switching it to you. As bad as I wan't Djo lynched, recent events are showing you as very red. I really hope lurkers show up to provide some insight. @ Cheese Sorry to bring this up but what does the part in bold font means exactly ? I didn't find any "maybe" in the post where you voted me... I don't understand the expression (not native speaker) so I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me. Are you dropping the SK charges against me ? | ||
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On October 29 2012 01:43 Rad wrote: Guys, is there ANY chance that there's also an SK and we both targeted kush, or he targeted sylver? @ Rad I wouldn't say that it is impossible but I don't believe it all personally. We might still have a SK because town is stacked with blue roles in this game but I doubt it given the precedent difficult experience of the host as a SK during a newbie. You should ask the host what happens to your bullet in such cases. How many bullets do you have now ? | ||
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On October 29 2012 02:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: When I made that post I was 95% sure you were scum, 5% SK. With the vig claim, I'm damn near 100% sure of you being scum. "Maybe" = perhaps, having the slight possibility of being the SK @ Cheese Next time use maybe when you have to use maybe. When you write," Djo is scum or SK", I don't get a 95%-5% at all. | ||
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Sorry I didn't read the rules for the roles... Off to bed | ||
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On October 29 2012 02:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Apologies for the discrepancy, I see how or implies 50-50. But my read on you has, and will remain, scum. /semi-joke I hope that Rad is going to tunnel you for this post | ||
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@ debears I have to go to work so I have no time to address your case against me. I saw that you did some research in my previous game filters and you seem to have actually read my all filter. It's a pity that you are looking in the wrong direction but I'm the one to blame. Anyways, it makes you even more town for me. @ nackht I'm still waiting for some input. The more I wait the more I expect from you when you come back. @ Ini I have nothing to claim. And Kush went back to a null read on me just before he died, that's why he didn't write the case. If you think that I am SK, please come at me with some evidence showing that I am SK. But I don't think you should be spending your time on this (if you are town) because we don't know yet if there is a SK. @ Alsn At the time I wrote my case against Ini, he was the scummiest among us in my eyes. I have reconsidered this after he answered my case and backed off of him because of this. Now I have a newbie town read on him. A big towntell in my eyes is how he reacted to my "scumslip" post attack against kush. He was the only one to consider it seriously because he is town, or at least he faked it very well while discussing about it. | ||
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It's very unlikely for mafia to fake claim vig. Mafia knows that they didn't kill kush but they somebody else killed him, i.e. vig or SK. Vig case If they fake claim, the vig could counter claim and then town is sure that one of the two is mafia. You are not even sure that the real vig is going to get lynched first. Very bad idea... SK case You are risking a fake counter claim by the SK as well. The SK can choose not taking the risk but anyway he knows for sure that Rad is lying about the kill. The mafia doesn't want to reveal to the SK at all. | ||
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It's true that I didn't consider the fact that Kush could have been killed by the mafia and that I have found a possible reason for the mafia to have targeted sylverfire quite fast. It was obvious for me that mafia would never had killed Kush because of my experience of the last game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kush is never NKed by the mafia when he rolls town. Anyway, I should have looked like I had some extra information about the night kills. So, from a mafia point of view, I really should be looking like a SK. I find it very strange that dandel didn't wait that long for a vig to claim. Getting a SK lynched is good for the image I guess so he comes at me very fast with a weird meta argument to support the fact that could be SK. [u]To sum up[u] Scum dandel knows that I'm not going to flip scum. Reacting to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side, he comes at me very fast saying that I'm SK (not waiting for a claim, backing it up with poor arguments). He doesn't have the time to go through 18 pages of Thrawn's filter. Seriously, it makes so much sense ! Town dandel would have reacted slower to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side. It doesn't tell if I'm scum or SK (please check Cheese reaction to see the difference). His reaction could have been possible but it makes less sense. ##Unvote ##Vote Dandel | ||
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It doesn't change the fact that he does not back up with a consistent case his "strong read" for me being SK. Moreover, if you take the time to think about it, in a 5vs3vs1 situation, it's better for town not to lynch the SK. On the opposite, mafia would be eager to get rid of him. | ||
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We might still have a SK. SK doesn't use automatically his KP all nights. | ||
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Let's have a look at the progression of dandel's read on me. During N1 On October 28 2012 04:57 Dandel Ion wrote: I have scumreads on you and Inig. You being my top scumread. A little weaker scumread on Djo. Are you even paying attention? 11 hours after beginning of D2 On October 28 2012 20:03 Dandel Ion wrote: /snip I just want you to admit shooting either of them. You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK. /snip Conclusion: Djo is either SK, or scum. Both are reasons to lynch him, to me. ##Vote Djodref That said, does anybody even care about this game anymore?... and then again On October 28 2012 21:45 Dandel Ion wrote: SK is also more likely in my mind because nobody really defends you, except really soft defenses. You look more "alone" than a scum would, in my opinion. That, or your scumbuddies are lurking, which would also explain it. /snip So he goes from a light scumread on me to a very strong SK read. His reasons for me being SK are poor, and I think he was convinced like this because he has extra information. Anyway, he is convinced that I'm SK, which is false by the way. He has to assume that we are in a 5vs3vs1 situation and he still wants to lynch me after that. I don't think that any town player would like the lynch a SK in that situation. This is the most incriminating part against him in my eyes and this one is valid regardless of my alignment. If he is really town and he assumes that the current state is 5vs3vs1, he would never push for a SK lynch. He should go instead for his second strongest scumread after Kush, which is Ini and not me.. | ||
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Conclusion, dandel is scum | ||
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On October 29 2012 11:03 Rad wrote: /snip So, I really don't understand why he's even bringing it up anymore, but again, don't know what that says. If there is an SK, what can we possibly do about it right now? Would lynching an SK even help at this point? We have to lynch a scum or we're screwed, right? /snip @ Rad You have said it yourself ! It's not in town interest to lynch a possible SK at that point, it is even against the town. Yet dandel is pushing for it. And this one fits perfectly a mafia agenda. When you add on top of that the shitfest we had after Alsn case, it is almost confirmed that dandel is scum. And yeah it's stupid from my side to bring back the possibility of a SK. But I have said a lot of stupid and useless things since the beginning of this game. | ||
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If you are town, you do not lynch the SK in this configuration and you believed I was the SK. | ||
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Check this out, I have already posted it but w/e... On October 29 2012 11:04 Djodref wrote: There is no town player wanting to lynch a SK in a 5vs3vs1 situation because it brings you to a 4vs3 situation the following day. 4vs3 is the worst situation you can ever get for town. Lylo situation are always tricky but on this one the 4 town players have to vote for the same mafia player or else town loses. I would be surprised that town dandel did not consider that. Conclusion, dandel is scum It's not dandel first game. I guess he knows about the risks of a lylo. | ||
Djodref
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On October 29 2012 12:28 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Inig I find your vote on Dandel to be exceedingly odd. Your first post in D2, and you look at the thread and go "Hey, Alsn has a case on Dandel. I had suspicions of him before, better instantly agree with everything he says." You haven't said anything about Dandel since d1. It seems like you're actively lurking, and waiting for someone to bring up a case so you can sheep off of it. Admittedly, I find Dandel is to be scummy, but not as scummy as I find Djodref. Your post also conveniently avoids my concerns about the two posts being "walls of text" that don't contribute anything. In regards to the SK thing... I don't see why lynching the SK is ever a bad thing. What's the issue? It is most definitely in towns wincon. @ Cheese Lynching a possible SK today would be terribad. Check my previous posts about it, it makes you go from 5vs3vs1 to 4vs3. If you want me to detail you why 4vs3 is the worst situation ever, I can elaborate. And I would like to remind you that we are not even sure that Roco is going to survive and he could also be town ad far as we know. | ||
Djodref
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During D1, I have been accused by him but also by sylverfire, Cheese, Rad, debears and even the late Clarity was ill-disposed towards me. The only ones who were having town reads on me are daoud which we know was town and Ini but this one is not really defending me at all. I had to talk my way out of my lynch alone and it was not an easy task. So I ask you, where are my fucking scumbuddies ? If you ask yourself this question, you might be able to draw the same conclusion that Alsn did. It's not pure WIFOM. | ||
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On October 29 2012 12:36 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 12:30 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Check this out, I have already posted it but w/e... On October 29 2012 11:04 Djodref wrote: There is no town player wanting to lynch a SK in a 5vs3vs1 situation because it brings you to a 4vs3 situation the following day. 4vs3 is the worst situation you can ever get for town. Lylo situation are always tricky but on this one the 4 town players have to vote for the same mafia player or else town loses. I would be surprised that town dandel did not consider that. Conclusion, dandel is scum It's not dandel first game. I guess he knows about the risks of a lylo. Ok so let's say we have 5v3v1. Town lynches town, SK kills town. 3v3v1 Is that a better situation than 4v3 with no SK? @ Rad Ok, I get your point, but you are only considering the worst possibility. Nothing says that we cannot find a scum if we decide not to lynch a SK and the SK would try to kill a mafia more than anything else during the night. That's why any town player should go for scum today instead of going for the SK. Moreover, getting rid of the SK is a high priority for the mafia because he can kill them. | ||
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/snip "Hey-guys-we-didn't-do-any-NK-speculations-yet" Djodref: + Show Spoiler + On October 29 2012 10:14 Djodref wrote: Regarding dandel, I've found him very quick to accuse me as a SK at the beginning of D2. I know that he is saying that I'm SK or scum but his posts strongly imply that I'm more SK than scum (he brings thrawn meta in and says I'm more likely to be SK than scum). It makes a lot of sense from a mafia point of view. It's true that I didn't consider the fact that Kush could have been killed by the mafia and that I have found a possible reason for the mafia to have targeted sylverfire quite fast. It was obvious for me that mafia would never had killed Kush because of my experience of the last game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kush is never NKed by the mafia when he rolls town. Anyway, I should have looked like I had some extra information about the night kills. So, from a mafia point of view, I really should be looking like a SK. I find it very strange that dandel didn't wait that long for a vig to claim. Getting a SK lynched is good for the image I guess so he comes at me very fast with a weird meta argument to support the fact that could be SK. [u]To sum up[u] Scum dandel knows that I'm not going to flip scum. Reacting to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side, he comes at me very fast saying that I'm SK (not waiting for a claim, backing it up with poor arguments). He doesn't have the time to go through 18 pages of Thrawn's filter. Seriously, it makes so much sense ! Town dandel would have reacted slower to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side. It doesn't tell if I'm scum or SK (please check Cheese reaction to see the difference). His reaction could have been possible but it makes less sense. ##Unvote ##Vote Dandel You keep implying that I came after you "very fast", but that is a straight up lie. I gave you EASILY enough time to claim. I ask: "Is there something you want to tell us?" You seem to not want to tell us anything out of your own accord, so OVER 10 HOURS LATER, I make my post where I accuse you of being scum/SK. (This could've been avoided if Rad was faster at claiming, but better late than never.) You, Djo, will be happy to hear that I don't think you're the SK anymore, and you went back to being only Scum to me. You somehow arrive at how I "don't have the time to look through thrawn's filter", and I don't even know how you got to that assumption, or how it's relevant at all. But it's now redundant anyways. Honestly though, I probably couldn't point out a single collection of posts and point at it saying "this is where I got my scum/SK read on him", because he didn't have any obvious slips in there. He just posted a metric shitton and I always got a scummy feel off his posts. Which is pretty much what I get from you, only you post things that are slips, or at least look like them to me. Your "case", or post, or however you want to call it, is oddly similar to Alsn's too, in that 50% of it is speculation and WIFOM, which should have no place in there, and which I suspect is there only so that it makes it look like you had anything to actually base your read on. But I haven't seen anything. Oh, and I'm going to say this again, I was pushing for your lynch because you were either scum or SK. The chance of you flipping town are and were incredibly slim in my mind. @ dandel I'm discarding the post you have quoted. I have admitted that I was wrong on the time frame already and I agree that I have said some bullshit in this post. But I don't understand why you don't address my other posts about you, which have much stronger evidence. By the way, you were not pushing my lynch because I was either scum or SK (like Cheese did) but you were pushing my lynch because I was SK or scum. | ||
Djodref
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First of all, I would like to say that I'm a Vanilla Townie so I have nothing to claim to save my ass. Believe me or not, but I'm no SK and I'm no mafia. But it's not relevant for the subject I have to discuss. Considering that 2 blues are already dead and that you have no more bullets, I'm pretty sure that there is only VTs or equivalent right now. We cannot expect any save or vigilante kill. Let's assume that we have an confirmed SK and I think that I was close to be a confirmed SK in dandel's eyes. If town lynches the SK, you end up for sure at 4vs3 on D3. It is the worst lylo situation ever. You need basically to have a confirmed mafia player to expect survive the day, and then you have 2 more lylo at D4 (3vs2) and at D5 (2vs1). Given our current situation (town full of lurkers and newbies), I don't imagine us getting our way out a 4vs3 lylo. If town decides not to lynch the SK, it is possible that we end up in a 3vs3vs1 situation at D3 but it is neither is the interest or town nor in the interest of the SK. We have much more opportunities to get rid of the scum this way (lynch or night kill by the SK). Now, if we compare 4vs3 or 3vs3vs1, I think that the situations are equally bad. The SK has to team up with the town anyway at this point or it is game over for him. I don't know what would happen if we get out a 3vs3vs1 situation because I don't know what the SK would do. Lynching the SK is at best sub-optimal play from town but I tend to think that it is anti-town. And I cannot add enough how it fits a mafia agenda because they are sure to get to lylo instead of risking to lose one of their members. | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: And on the "where are my scumbuddies" thing. Djo was never in danger of a lynch d1. It was between Da0ud and Inig. Nobody had to defend him. The attention was off. @ Cheese Well, I respectfully disagree. I've been tunneled by almost all the active players during D1 and nobody defended nor soft-defended me at that time. I believed that I was going to get mislynched. People started to say that they didn't want to lynch quite late during day 1 because I was generating discussion, not because they thought I was townie. | ||
Djodref
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I did not say he was not right about the possibility of an SK and I can even understand that he thought I was SK. First point: I'm saying that it is easier for mafia to suspect someone of being SK rather than being scum. Second and main point: it is anti-town and pro-mafia to push a lynch on a SK in this situation. | ||
Djodref
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On October 29 2012 13:44 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 13:40 Djodref wrote: On October 29 2012 13:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: And on the "where are my scumbuddies" thing. Djo was never in danger of a lynch d1. It was between Da0ud and Inig. Nobody had to defend him. The attention was off. @ Cheese Well, I respectfully disagree. I've been tunneled by almost all the active players during D1 and nobody defended nor soft-defended me at that time. I believed that I was going to get mislynched. People started to say that they didn't want to lynch quite late during day 1 because I was generating discussion, not because they thought I was townie. You had some pressure on you d1 but I don't think you were at risk of getting lynched. Multiple people had said "he inputs enough good conversation, if he's scum he'll slip up at some point" and for whatever reason, we all moved on to inig and da0ud. You may have been scared early on but you know you weren't scared at all the last hours before the lynch. Hell, you even called cheese out about why his vote was still on you because obviously you weren't a lynch candidate at that point. Also you need to stop about the "no one defended me" garbage. We had 2 lurkers then and we have the same 2 lurkers now (1 replaced with a new person, but same role in this game). Also, you just haven't needed a scum buddy to take your side until right now, and it's super dangerous to do so at this point. @ Rad I know that it is not a good point to bring out but you have to understand my frustration about this. That's why I was so relieved when Alsn pointed it out. Not talking about this again. | ||
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Yeah, I agree, it's not very relevant but it should bother you a little. I was just trying to explain why dandel is wrong when he says that Alsn's case is based on WIFOM. By the way, did you find some mafia players ? At the exception of me of course | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:54 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 13:45 Djodref wrote: @ debears I did not say he was not right about the possibility of an SK and I can even understand that he thought I was SK. First point: I'm saying that it is easier for mafia to suspect someone of being SK rather than being scum. Second and main point: it is anti-town and pro-mafia to push a lynch on a SK in this situation. Djo, is it necessarily mafia motivated to do so when 1) it's being actively discussed 2) the sk can be a threat to town (the sk can nk, but how do you know he would correctly target mafia. A SK could end up targeting a townie who he thinks is scum) 3) He thought you had a possibility of being SK or scum Answer me that I see clear townie explanations for what he did by accusing you I understand that you can see townie motivations for this. But tell me why a townie should lynch the SK over a mafia player. Why didn't he go for Ini instead ? On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote: If I'm dead, please lynch Kush. 2nd priority would be Inig. - I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them. I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him. debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong. Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads. | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:57 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 13:55 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese Yeah, I agree, it's not very relevant but it should bother you a little. I was just trying to explain why dandel is wrong when he says that Alsn's case is based on WIFOM. By the way, did you find some mafia players ? At the exception of me of course Alsn's case is based off WIFOM. Why you lie? Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 22:31 Alsn wrote: Ok, I'm going to preface this by some WIFOM, although I think it's merited in this case. Looking at the situation right now, the only one at risk of lynching seems to be Djodref. More importantly, he seems to be completely alone in his plight. I think he's scummy, but this fact alone leads me to believe that one of the following three options must be true:
I'm sorry but his case is not based on the fact that I'm town, even if I got there with some WIFOMy arguments. | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:08 debears wrote: @Djo How often has Inig been around to actually answer some fucking questions??? He just plops in with his thought out, big posts and leaves. Well, this would have been a better reason for dandel to go after Inig rather than to vote me for being the SK. | ||
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On October 29 2012 13:57 debears wrote: ##Vote Djodref Lying scum You are going to be disappointed... | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:10 Rad wrote: @djo Dandel had a lot of time to think about it, and one of his main points about you was how quickly you pointed out the sylver quote. That didn't exist at the time he posted his msg before end of night. @ Rad It didn't change the fact that he still voted for me for being a SK rather than Ini for being a scum. | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:13 debears wrote: ebwop Why don't you find me scummy then??? Since I'm pressing you and not Inig @ debears You have posted a second case about me so I think I became your top scumread at that point. | ||
Djodref
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I think I deserved for what I did to you in my first newbie That and because I suck as town I would say... | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:13 debears wrote: ebwop Why don't you find me scummy then??? Since I'm pressing you and not Inig @ debears This post is so unfair. You know I have a town read on you since the beginning of the game. | ||
Djodref
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On October 29 2012 14:22 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 14:14 Djodref wrote: On October 29 2012 14:10 Rad wrote: @djo Dandel had a lot of time to think about it, and one of his main points about you was how quickly you pointed out the sylver quote. That didn't exist at the time he posted his msg before end of night. @ Rad It didn't change the fact that he still voted for me for being a SK rather than Ini for being a scum. He didn't make the "I'm voting for SK" argument minutes before lynch and then let his vote ride into a lynch. He made it after a double NK where I hadn't claimed vigi yet. He had well over a full day left to change it up. At the very least it was a pressure move and I think a good one. It's not like everyone was going to read his case and go "yep let's kill the SK!" and no one talk until lynch. It has helped town a lot because it's gotten a variety of opinions since. Let me rephrase. His vote and reasoning is not important because it hasn't done anything yet. It's just there, making you anxious and causing discussion. If he votes inig, what happens? Inig posts once, maybe twice, goes afk. What do you do? You talk a loooootttt. That creates something for us to discuss. Furthermore, his points were interesting and valid. What new can he post about inig? Nothing at that point. @ Rad True enough, pressuring me made me talk a lot. But I think he forgot about Inig and wanted to lynch me instead. Remember that not wanting to lynch scum is a big scum-tell. | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:32 Roco69 wrote: I am back from the moon. sorry i got high last week end I do not want to see djodref kill even if it is against my logic of killing the one who talk the more !!! ##Vote Dandel Ion @ Roco You better post a lot and give better reasons for voting for dandel. Everyone is going to kill you for this kind of thing... | ||
Djodref
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Check this out. On October 28 2012 23:50 Dandel Ion wrote: What has Djo done for town? What has Cheesecake done? What has Rad done? What has debears done? Is nacktjogger even in this game? I can't tell. What about Roco? On October 28 2012 23:51 Dandel Ion wrote: Oh Inig is also still alive. How could I forget this beacon of towniness? He did mention him once while SK tunneling me. | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:41 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: The only reason he wasn't modkilled was because he was due to be replaced. If he didn't vote on D1 then he shouldn't be around for d2. And surprisingly Roco doesn't want to lynch Djo... Why not? Something smells super scummy about this entire situation. A lurker being scumbuddies with Djo just makes too much sense right now, especially with him returning the second he has the possibility of being lynched. @ Cheese I know, this looks super bad. Even myself I don't understand how I can be town in this fucking game... | ||
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On October 29 2012 14:43 Rad wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2012 14:41 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Check this out. On October 28 2012 23:50 Dandel Ion wrote: What has Djo done for town? What has Cheesecake done? What has Rad done? What has debears done? Is nacktjogger even in this game? I can't tell. What about Roco? On October 28 2012 23:51 Dandel Ion wrote: Oh Inig is also still alive. How could I forget this beacon of towniness? He did mention him once while SK tunneling me. I read that as just more sarcasm based on him not including inig in the "what has X done" post. Ok but he only mentions Ini one time before posting this. In my eyes, it looks like that he was way more focused on a possible SK that on a possible scum. | ||
Djodref
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Why we should lynch Dandel Ion I'm pretty sure right now that Dandel Ion is scum. My main problem is that some of you people are firm believers that I'm mafia. I would like you to put aside your suspicions for the time it is going to take you to read this post and try to be as objective as you could be. As Rad has said before, a townie should be always open to hear good arguments and be able to change his mind My main point is to promote a dandel's lynch. You might decide to lynch me anyway at the end of the day but you should try to remember this case for tomorrow in this case. My main points against dandel are the following
Lack of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + If you check dandel's filter, you can notice that he has spent a good amount of time talking about policy during D1. It's making him looking active while not posting so much content. And he is encouraging people to do so even 12 hours the game has started.+ Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 20:10 Alsn wrote: Hey everyone, I can see the thirteenth player must have confirmed. Will start reading the thread soon but would just like to start off with some information: I'm Alsn and I've played in two mafias here on TL as well as a bunch of times using the SC2 custom map. My filters for those games can be found here(first game) and here(second game). I was an active observer in XXVII and the obs QT for that can be found here. With that out of the way, gl hf! Methinks you wanted to link this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579 instead of XVIII twice. Now what do you think about: Lurker policy Other policy Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too. Talking about poilcy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later. Until now, dandel has actually one FoS against Roco and has written three cases. I personally find the cases to be lacking of content and being opportunity cases. Here you have the first case against Inig + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 19:55 Dandel Ion wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 18:22 Inigmaticalism wrote: If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to. -Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something. -Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding fact stuff to post? Really not sure. -Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town. -Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing. Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it here: Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote: @Roco: Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active) Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum? Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one) Until he manages to clarify that: ##FoS Roco I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it) But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning? Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game. He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats anything important, but Ill keep it in mind. THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated) and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either, just getting everyones policy straight is "important": Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote: Now what do you think about: Lurker policy Other policy Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too. Talking about policy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later. Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier. (And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea). - I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan. Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time. -Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting. -Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now. -And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad, debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff. I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote. I would vote for you right now Dandel, and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my questions, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information. ##Vote: imcasey Tell me why I should not vote for you. This was Ini's post against dandel Thanks for digging this up an hour before I would have addressed it anyways. This part is his defense from the post+ Show Spoiler + Why I FoS'd Roco: It should be clear from my post, I would have thought, but I wanted to pressure him. Into explaining himself, into making scumreads, anything. Sadly, he has not done that. You probably don't understand this concept, but one of the hardest things in Newbie games is finding out if somebody is bad-town or scum. Do you honestly think I would have an awesomesauce 100% scumread on somebody after 2 posts? No can do, sorry. Which is why I wanted him to post more, to find out. He's not done that, which makes him MORE suspicious to me. It can be an intentional strategy: He doesn't post after being under suspicion, then before the deadline he comes in to vote somebody, so he doesn't get modkilled. The thing now: If he does that, he's confirmed himself scum in my eyes. If he doesn't do that, he gets modkilled for not voting. Logical conclusion: Despite what I said yesterday about lynching him if he doesn't post (which I primarily said to get him to post), I don't really want to vote him TODAY. Because assuming he keeps the lurking up, he either confirms himself scum or gets modkilled. If he starts posting normally again, I'm gonna have to rethink that again, but seeing as he's been afk for >24 hours already, that's unlikely anyways. I explained why I like to emphasise lurker policy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=19#362 I even dumbed it down really hard in that post, you should be able to understand it. No, town benefits from having more information. Your argument IS WIFOM. Again. Stop it. What's even worse, is that you seem to possess the mental capability to UNDERSTAND lurker policy (reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=10#198 Show nested quote + For lurking I think it seems even more of an issue in Newbie games than regular games because too many lurkers results in mafia wins most of the time in the Newbie games I looked at. That said, if we get any confirmed mafia I'll always vote confirmed mafias over suspicious lurkers. This quote, you not only show that you understand lurkers are a problem for town, yet you find me suspicious for trying to limit the lurking in this game? Because doing something that's good for town and bad for scum, through some random reason translates to "OH BOY THIS GUY IS SUSPICIOUS AS HELL" in your brain? I don't get it. You're not making sense imo. AND THE WORST PART: You do the same fucking thing you accuse me of doing to Roco, just worse. (because casey looks like a serious modkill candidate, and didn't say anything you could derive a scumread from. I was at least going for the lurker that had scummy posts, you just told yourself "Yes, going for a 25% chance of hitting scum is a good idea!") You're a hypocrite, and I think you're scum. But, in contrast to you, I won't just call you scummy in a big post and then vote a random dude that has a high chance of getting modkilled. I'm voting you! ##vote Inigmaticalism This post is basically saying that Ini's is using WIFOM arguments against dandel and voting for lurker. The timing is right for this OMGUS vote on Ini because I have already made my case about it and debears starts to be seriously concerned by Ini at this point. There is not enough content in my opinion to justify a vote on Ini. The second is the case on kush during N1. Please note that at the exception of Roco, he has only Ini as a serious scumread for D1. Anyway, here is the second scumhunting post of dandel in this game+ Show Spoiler + On October 27 2012 22:36 Dandel Ion wrote: Okay, so here goes: Djo is looking really scummy now. Remember the slip calling daoud a townie? By now, I'm thinking that it actually was a scumslip. Djo just said "dw guise, it was a slip, but not a scumslip. Trust me!" And people actually did that. My take on that: He wanted to buddy up daoud, and slipped in the process. The day 1 cases against him didn't hold much ground in my eyes, but daoud's flip changes things. ##FoS Djo So Djo is looking scummy, but I have an even stronger scumread, and I'll tunnel this one (like I promised I would!) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=28#547 (also some later posts, won't link all the relevant ones here) He comes into the thread, dismisses the Inig cases with some excuse about how he is "sharing his thoughts" (a convenient way to ignore WHAT those thoughts actually were), and proclaims daoud scum instead. now, the post where daoud voted Inig WAS weird. I'll admit that. I also commented on that when I read it. But it honestly was not such a big deal as Kush pretended it was. His further points on daoud: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#609 He excused Djo's scumslip too easily. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#616 He drags out a random quote of daoud from another game, and uses it as "evidence" that his meta is wrong. Later, he tries to imply a townread on Inig AND a way to subtly imply daoud is scum, just because Inig placed a useless vote on me. Note how this is actually a gigantic logical fallacy, since for this to hold true, he has to look at it from the perspective that Inig is scum, but he somehow draws the conclusion that town is more likely to do that? Wat? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#625 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#629 I CONSIDER THIS A SCUMSLIP, since he does logic assuming Inig is scum, even though he doesn't get tired of soft-defending Inig and excusing him as "newbie town" (a horrible defense, I think we agreed on that already), and even when he says he considers it a null-tell, he is trying to make it look as something town is more likely to do (which, by the way, is wrong too) Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 22:06 kushm4sta wrote: Someone give me a meta read on debears. Is he usually this angry and rambunctious? I don't know his meta but it seems kind of fake to me. And also his little stunt in the pony thread could be something to try to convince people following that thread that he is town. (I actually did this when I got mafia several games ago) You played scum WITH debears. Don't act like you don't know him. His scum meta is something you should be perfectly familiar with. So I don't believe your "I don't know" bullshit. It just looks like you're trying to sow baseless suspicions. Same with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=36#713 You're trying to imply suspicious behaviour in another thread, from a relatively random comment, that doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with this game at all. That's bad enough. But then the part about how he PM'd you? wtf is this even trying to accomplish? If somebody PMs you, and you actually have a problem with it, you PM the host. Don't go into the thread to wave it around. And then you act like it's a null read anyways? WHY THANK YOU FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION You're just trying to shit up the thread and undermine the position of somebody that most people (including me) have a townread on. ##FoS Kush So here I'm becoming suddenly scummy because of the flip of daoud. My previous slip on him becomes a scumslip and changes everything. I personally don't like this part because of my alignment but I know it is not incriminating in itself. But if this slip has made him changing his mind about his read on me, he couldn't accuse me of being SK in the future, couldn't he ? Concerning kush, we know already that kush was town. I'm saying once again that this is quite opportunistic. Dandel knows kush and I'm pretty sure he knows what happens when you tunnel him: Kush starts a flame war and gets mislynched. I'm not saying that suspecting kush was bad (kush always looks scummy) but it sure is to tell him something like "I'm gonna tunnel you to death". You are sure to get some disruption if you are doing it that way. Remember that we should try to promote good atmosphere in this thread. And here is the last case of dandel. He seems to have forget that he changed his mind about me because I was having extra-information. He says that he has a SK read on him without backing it up properly (it is a feeling, you know).+ Show Spoiler + On October 28 2012 20:03 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 10:17 Djodref wrote: On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote: Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver? Is there something you want to tell us? @ dandel Please show me in my post where I'm "so certain". I'm using conditional verbal forms... >.> Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 09:29 Djodref wrote: I think sylver has been killed for this post On October 25 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote: I feel like asking everyone a loaded question, but one that makes sense for a newbie game: If you're not completely new to mafia (maybe you've played a few games IRL/elsewhere, or this isn't your first game on TL) What's your favorite role to play in mafia? I feel like I'm one of few who actively enjoys being a vanilla townie more than scum or a power-townie. It feels that much better when you're part of a victory! Maybe I'm wrong in this being an uncommon choice of favorite role, though. I would say mafia was trying to snipe a blue and managed to do it. Regarding Kush death, I would say vig or SK. Both makes sense. But jailkeeper + vig + detective seems imba so I think we have a SK. Show nested quote + On October 28 2012 09:31 Djodref wrote: By the way, if mafia is blue sniping, I would think that they have nobody on their ass right now. Your posts heavily imply that mafia is bluesniping Sylver, and you don't even aknowledge the possibility that Kush was the scum KP. Cheesecake's point about how fast you found a good reason to kill Sylver is also pretty good in my opinion. I mean, I checked his filter again, too, but I didn't even really think about that. To me, it sounds plausible that you've thought about it beforehand. I just want you to admit shooting either of them. You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK. Now, my sample size is not the biggest, but I played a single game with a SK. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548 (doesn't say in the OP, but it's thrawn) And your play feels SO MUCH like thrawn's that game, it's not even funny. Since there's been no Vig claim, I'll have to assume a SK in the game now. Because it doesn't really make sense to NOT claim vig, he'd have no shots left, and would be, for all intents and purposes, be confirmed town. Which is something I'd like very much, at this point. Reasons to not claim Vig: If you're actually the SK and you'd incriminate yourself when there comes another night with 2 NKs. That's it. Conclusion: Djo is either SK, or scum. Both are reasons to lynch him, to me. ##Vote Djodref That said, does anybody even care about this game anymore?... Not promoting his lynch targets + Show Spoiler + In this paragraph, I'm going to talk mainly about how dandel handled Ini. This two guy was dandel target during D1 and he kept Ini at the top of his scumlist all the time as far as I know. This is a post 10hours before the lynch+ Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 23:07 Dandel Ion wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 22:56 Djodref wrote: On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote: Man, I did get a bit emotional, I admit, but I really do consider him scummy. Not just because he accused me specifically. I can see, however, that Ingi lynch will probably not go through today, since nobody wants to support it. I'm keeping my vote on him for now (because, conversely, I don't find the Djo suspicions to be too compelling) and I still have hope that maybe some people will look at it the same way. @Dandel We have plurality lynch system, so we don't need to consolidate, and I have no idea how many people are actually going to vote today... Could you tell us more about why you want to lynch Ini ? You just HAVE to ask this while I'm getting second thoughts about it... My case, combined with my defense of his post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=25#482 I should probably have split the two better, I guess. What made my originally suspicious (apart from the whole not-doing-anything he did for a long time), I explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=20#382 I didn't word to too agressively, because just this one thing wouldn't make him scum alone. But, both of those factors combined, he's (still) my stronged scumread right now. And here is one hour before the lynch On October 27 2012 08:08 Dandel Ion wrote: So basically he has done nothing to push his strongest scumread to be lynched. Once again, I'm going to show debears as an example. Debears was fighting to get Ini lynched. Dandel didn't care. Not pushing your scumreads is a big scumtell in my book.Okay, so far, I've not seen anything that would make me unvote inig, or alleviate my scumread on him. So I'm going to keep my vote on him unless somebody claims scum within the hour. But we are not over with Ini. Please look at his "last will" post before D2. You are supposed to be serious in these posts.+ Show Spoiler + On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote: If I'm dead, please lynch Kush. 2nd priority would be Inig. - I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them. I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him. debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong. Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads. So right after the beginning of D2, one of the two is certainly scum in his opinion.He is leaning scum on me. If it is not kush, it has to be Ini. But is he pushing for an Ini lynch for D2 ? No, because he has found a better target, the SK. Not willing to lynch scum + Show Spoiler + This part is the most incriminating one in my opinion. If you read dandel's filter from the end of N1 to the beginning of D2, you can guess that he has a very strong scumread on Ini, which he doesn't mention so much during the beginning of D2 (you know, because he doesn't care so much about it after all). And he has suddenly a strong SK read on me. "You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK." his own words And then he proceeds to forget about Ini and proceeds to push my lynch. Who is choosing SK over scum ? mafia especially in a 5vs3vs1 situation You have to understand that going after the SK is a very strong scumtell in this situation. And he supposedly has an almost confirmed mafia player to vote instead of me at that moment. I'm willing to stay up all night long to discuss these reasons over and over again. They are strong indicatives of scumplay. Please give me your feedback ^^ | ||
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Kush is never night killed by the mafia, even if he fears it a lot, that is known | ||
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I have just dog this up in debears filter. I bring it up here for the lulz and for the lulz only On October 26 2012 00:49 debears wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 00:46 sylverfyre wrote: On October 26 2012 00:37 Dandel Ion wrote: On October 26 2012 00:35 sylverfyre wrote: On October 26 2012 00:24 Djodref wrote: @sylver I don't care about who hasn't posted right now. I want to know what info you were expecting to get by asking your question. I was making that list because I wasn't even sure myself who/how many people hadn't spoken up. I was trying to stir something up and you can also consider it a kind of "roleclaim-lite" (I hardly expect anyone to claim they enjoy playing scum when I ask ingame, but i think it could have been interesting to see if some people said they like a particular pro-town power-role.) So, you admit you were rolefishing? Yes, I am trying to get people to talk about roles without doing something as ridiculous as asking for a D1 mass claim. Also I am trying to get to know the other players in general. No, No. No. No. No. Talking about roles is stupid. It gives the mafia stuff to go on when looking for nk candidates. DON'T DO IT. I think that someone caught up on this, if you know what I mean | ||
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On October 29 2012 03:51 debears wrote: wow lol posted it in the last newbie. Thrawn we did the same thing :/ fuck me lol A Second case on Djo Since my first case, Djo hasn't done much to help my read on him. In fact, after rereading his filter again, I'd say my scumread on him is even stronger. Points in the original case/cases 1) Stated and Acted as though he had a town read on me day 1, then denies it when pressured by Rad Have my actions ever indicated that I have been doubted my read on you ? I fucked up my wording in my response to Rad's post. Go read this post again and add a 100% in the sentence to get "I don't consider him as 100% town" and you'll see that everything is going to make a lot of sense 2) His two scumslips (slips as he calls them) - Dau0d town comment and the slip when talking about Alsn's fOS I don't remember the slip in Alsn's FoS. Could you please bring it up ? I have looked your first case again and I didn't find it. 3) Wanting me to "Take care of Rad" day 1 Same, I had a town read on you and you are pressing your targets enough. The Day 1 lynch + Show Spoiler + First, I want to point out his indecisiveness and apparent apathy to who he wanted lynched. Djo's first actual pursuit was Inig. He was pressing on Inig pretty well. However, when asked who he would want to lynch, he says Sylver (with his vote on Inig) On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 00:42 kushm4sta wrote: More on daoud: He seems much more careful about what he says this game than last game. Last games his posts were like WTF is this weird guy talking about. This game they look like he doesn't want to catch anyone's attention. Why we shouldn't lynch djodref today: He does look pretty scummy. But I don't see how anyone can have a lot of certainty in that read. Combination of high activity and low certainty means he should not lynch him. Also realize that djodref is in a position where he NEEDS to evolve his meta whether he is town or scum. His first game he played as a noob, understandable because it was his first game. His second game, he pretended to be a noob as a scum strat. I think showing that he is better than the newb he pretended to be last game would be the natural play for town djodref, and also scum djodref trying to appear as town djodref. Djo: who out of the active players seems scummiest to you? Also why did you bring up how you want to lynch a lurker without even trying to pressure your scumreads? @Kush Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. A couple of posts later, he unvotes and states why he doesn't want to lynch Inig suddenly. On October 27 2012 01:03 Djodref wrote: Regarding an Inig's lynch, I'm not comfortable with it... In my opinion, he had a positive response after my case against him. I doubt that he could be a scum after that. His role claim was looking really sincere. If he can improve his presence in the thread and his scumhunting, I don't want to lynch him. I'm going to unvote him. I would cast my vote on Roco or imcasey if they magically reappear. I'll wake up early tomorrow to see if the bandwagon is still against me or not. If you are town, do not sheep and cast your vote against me. Read my filter and make your own opinion by yourself. You are going to feel some heat if you cast your vote too lightly because I'm going to flip green. I'm sorry but I need some sleep guys ## Unvote That's quite the turnaround after the pressure and vote On October 27 2012 08:20 Djodref wrote: @debears No, I'm not comfortable with any of the lynches to be honest. I'm looking at their filter over and over again and try to find some little clues... Regarding Inig, I should vote him if I was only a rational machine (no scumhunting at the beginning, wishy washy on Cheese, voting imcasey unexpectedly, the slip you have found, etc...) but I feel him as sincere in his posts.a Not sure why he claimed though. Regarding daoud, I have no reasons to vote for him at the exception of his hasty vote. His only reason for not voting Inig was that Inig seemed "sincere". In fact, he said that it would be rational to lynch Inig based on his posting. That one post is a huge contradiction. Notice how during his time, he puts suspicion on Sylver. Also, notice the timing of the unvote. He unvoted when there were other people agreeing with his case. That's really weird combined with the "he's sincere" reasoning on Inig. Here is was sum up my situation regarding the D1 lynch. On October 27 2012 08:53 Djodref wrote: ok, I'm really doubting my previous case against you. And you are actually trying to participate. I don't want to lynch you today. Problem is I don't want to lynch daoud neither. What should I do ? I was in an impossible situation. I had and I still have a strong gut feeling for a newbie town Ini after that he has answered to my case. I'm feeling him sincere when he role claim VT even if his filter is full of scummy shits. I was trying to convince myself by looking at the scummy parts only but it didn't work. I couldn't see myself voting him. On the other hand, I didn't want to lynch daoud but I didn't fight against it and that was my biggest mistake. More on daoud's vote on the next part. I'm sorry to add some WIFOM but I would never had done this kind of shit as scum. Check my game in the Looney, I'm striving for not standing out. Djo's approach on Dau0d + Show Spoiler + Despite Djo's suspicions on Inig and Sylver, he ends up voting Dau0d. Why? Lets see On October 27 2012 08:56 Djodref wrote: ## Vote daoud Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far... Not the greatest reasoning. He does provide some reasoning right after though. On October 27 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 08:46 debears wrote: Bad word choice on my part. Bad = weak in my post. And the same points on inig and dauod. 1) semi lurker 2) town reads/ percent town reads 3) generally blending in Give me Allow me to ameliorate for you, sir. 1.) Inig was a semi lurker to begin with. As of late, he has been posting more and with greater content. Da0ud, on the other hand, has contributed much less and is still lurking. 2.) Let's look at both of their percentage town reads. Inigs: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote: I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought. Da0ud's: Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 22:41 da0ud wrote: Talking about smileyDjo he has put a lot of pressure on people. Asking open questions etc. For having played a game with him where he played to nice lovable newbie card, I believe he is trying to step up and actually be a leader for town. I put him 90% town. Inig has more reason for considering Djo town, and puts it at 70% (leaning town). He says he's been consistent, obviously posting alot, and going after him of all people. He likes this, and even offers some counter-roles that he could be instead of mafia. Da0ud on the other hand only says "hey, he's asking questions, must be 90% (almost definitely town)" I find Da0uds reasons for thinking Djo town less plausible than Inigs, and he almost considers him town. 3.) Inig has been more distinguished in asking questions / contributing. His theory on Dandel is intriguing and unique, and something I may want to follow up on in the future. His vote of imcasey and Dandel is anything BUT blending in. Notice his reasoning. It's literally almost the same for Inig. Yet, he feels that Inig was "more distinguished in asking questions/contributing". I don't get it. Also, he didn't think Dau0d's meta was different than Dau0d's town game when he posted this earlier. On October 27 2012 00:53 Djodref wrote: Regarding daoud, I don't want to lynch him because he has reacted quite fast and naturally to my slip. Him posting some nonsense about the possibility of a SK just after totally fits his meta. He needs to post a lot more though... He flip-flopped onto Dau0d after kush's case while spreading suspicion onto 2 other plays (slyverfyre and Inig). His reasoning for moving his suspicion around was poor at the best. To me, it seems like he didn't care who got lynched I think it is pretty clear that I didn't want to lynch daoud. I should have fought against it. At the end, I gave the shittiest reason ever to vote for him but the truth is I was just avoiding a modkill by doing so. But I didn't want to say it nor voting no-lynch. It should have been a better solution maybe. Hammering CheeseCake for the Switched Vote + Show Spoiler + This was posted after the lynch On October 27 2012 17:53 Djodref wrote: Show nested quote + On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch. My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig. /snip @ Cheese At this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch. Isn't this similar to what Djo did? Yet Djo is calling him out for it? Djo had no considerations of Dau0d until the kush case was posted. On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote: "That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ Cheese Here is a quote from you. Show nested quote + On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: /snip The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it. ##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese Yet again, a FOS for hypocritical reasoning. Not only did Djo drop his top scumread for poor reasoning, he voted for Dau0d for poor reasoning. And now he's spreading suspicion on CheeseCake. This post, however, is the kicker On October 27 2012 08:00 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ? Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it ! Djo told him to change his vote in the first place!!!!!!!!!! Then, he tries to accuse Cheese of scum since Cheese did it???? Wow. I was trying to put pressure on cheese because he dropped his vote on me (his top scumread) to choose daoud for weak reasons. When I unvote Ini, he is not my top scumread at that time. I'm not sure to have any scumread at this time at all. I was expecting Cheese to express some regret or frustration while switching vote. I find it weird to not see this at all in his filter but he has been quite coherent on this point. Meta Djo has little meta to go on with only 2 games. However, there are differences from his town game and scum game. These differences, related to this game, are not damning by any means, but do support that Djo could be scum. 1) Djo is capable of being active as scum. His filter was roughly 9 pgs as scum in Looney I was active but I was much less interacting with the other players. I was posting a lot of big posts by myself and I was taking a great advantage of the different timezones. I'm globally more active in this game. 2)His case format this game compared to his other games http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372945¤tpage=58#1147 - Game as scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=23#441 - this game Look at the shocking similarities. Now, this could be how he likes to post now, since this is only his 3rd game. However, in looking at his first newbie as cop, no posts have the same format (Correct me if I'm wrong on this Djo) You are not wrong at all but it is just because I found a format that I like to do my cases. I'm still learning you know 3) Personality - Djo's personality this game is similar to his other games as cop and mafia. Take out the newbie card play, and he sounds the same in all 3. Thus, his personality is a null tell, but it mean that he can be mafia sorry for the incoming WIFOM A general comment on my meta is that I was playing quite safe in the Looney game. I would have never slipped if I was scum in this game. I would have never painted a red target on me with wishy washy votes at the end of D1. I would have not been standing out and everything. I've played a beautiful scum game in Looney and I'm not downgrading my play here because I'm not taking the newbie seriously. Obviously, I'm a better mafia player than a town player. Sorry for this but don't you dare fucking lynch me ! A Common Fallacy I think this game has fallen into the trap of activity = town. That is not always the case. Take a long hard look at Djo's filter and this case. His filter is huge and it was a bitch to go through. Mafia can hide in a big filter. I encourage everyone to take a long look at my filter and forge his own opinion. DO NOT SHEEP DEBEARS CASE ! Djo is my number 2 scum read besides Dandel right now. I still need to see if Dandel even comes back (and defends himself properly + has something to contribute) before I would think of voting Djo. Let me know if you need clarification on anything. Reading Djo's filter + writing out the case = sucks I'm addressing debears case in this post. As usual, my comments are in bold font in the spoiler. | ||
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Why did you no try to push the lynch of Inig at the end of D1 ? Why did you consider me as a possible SK when the key thing that had made you changed your mind was my scumslip ? Why do you want to lynch a SK over a mafia player ? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote: Why we should lynch Inig First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
Total lack of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote: Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote: Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me? -Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. Emotionally detached from this game + Show Spoiler + When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote: I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote + On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote: EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote + You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument + Show Spoiler + This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote: /snip As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument. | ||
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On October 29 2012 20:57 Dandel Ion wrote: Dear Djo, I wasn't 100% sure about Inig. I said you were either SK or scum (this time I made it the "right" way around, just for you) because I had a scumread on you, and you posted this NK speculation nonsense you like so much. The way you were going on about how it was impossible that scum shot kush made me think you killed him, after you didn't claim Vig when I asked you about it, I thought SK was more likely. It is not really a matter of lynching a SK OVER scum. You had a good chance of flipping either, and since Kush died, I didn't really have any strong scumreads left. So in the end, you were my strongest scumread AND a SK candidate. Lynching you was a win-win situation in my mind. Now that the shot on Kush is accounted for, you are back to "only" being my top scumread. @ dandel I think you are forgetting about this post. On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote: If I'm dead, please lynch Kush. 2nd priority would be Inig. - I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them. I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him. debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong. Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads. | ||
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On October 29 2012 21:00 Dandel Ion wrote: /snip Do you think formatting is a suitable substitute for scumhunting? No, but it is useful to actually promote your lynch. You should be concise and clear as town. Presenting your case with the main points is helping you for both. | ||
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Lynching a SK over scum matters. This is the key | ||
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[list] [*]Dandel scumhunting is lacking of content (against me as SK, against Ini as scum) [*]Dandel has not pushed his top scumread Ini for the lynch at the end of D1 [*]Dandel casts a FoS on me because of my "scumslip" then accuses me of being a SK. Big contradiction here [*]Dandel prefers to lynch a possible SK to a possible scum | ||
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Sorry guys | ||
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On October 29 2012 21:04 Dandel Ion wrote: What? No I'm not, lol. That was BEFORE the daypost. My suspicions on you, I pushed AFTER the daypost. Because that's when they got a foundation. I also had a FoS on you before that. Did YOU forget that? @ dandel Ok, let's have a look at your FoS. On October 27 2012 22:36 Dandel Ion wrote: Okay, so here goes: Djo is looking really scummy now. Remember the slip calling daoud a townie? By now, I'm thinking that it actually was a scumslip. Djo just said "dw guise, it was a slip, but not a scumslip. Trust me!" And people actually did that. My take on that: He wanted to buddy up daoud, and slipped in the process. The day 1 cases against him didn't hold much ground in my eyes, but daoud's flip changes things. ##FoS Djo /snip ##FoS Kush @ dandel Your key point for FoSing me is the slip I have made regarding daoud alignment. You take it as a scumslip here. This is what has made you reconsider the previous cases on D1 according to you. This kind of thing is supposed to make me a definitive mafia player. How could you have changed your mind and accused me of being a serial killer ? A serial killer would have never made this slip because he would have had no information about daoud alignment at that time. My guess is that you switched from mafia to SK because you knew that I couldn't flip red. | ||
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On October 29 2012 12:46 Rad wrote: I'm leaning hard towards Djo. @ Rad A townie should always have an open mind and bla bla bla bla Shall we discuss this issue when you come back to the thread ? I'll try to present you some good arguments. | ||
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Regarding this slip, I've felt that I didn't really deserve this FoS by Alsn. I've been insulting and provocative because it didn't fit Alsn town meta to cast a FoS so easily on someone. I was expecting more from him so I thought his FoS was not a serious one. I thought he was a mafia player casting a FoS for the sake of casting a FoS. Also, I was not comfortable with my play so far. I had slipped already with daoud at this time I think and I knew I had some bad posts. I was expecting a mafia Alsn to commit more to attack me and then be able to catch him this way. | ||
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@ debears I would welcome your comments regarding my defense | ||
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I think you have misunderstood me. I wanted to discuss with you the reasons with you think I'm mafia. | ||
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On October 30 2012 00:36 Rad wrote: @Djo I can go over that tonight before lynch if I need. I can only make short posts today in the meantime. If you want to start discussing without me coming up with some list, go right ahead. @ Rad Sorry it is already 1am in Korea and I want to sleep tonight. I'll be back before the deadline but I'm gonna try to catch up with the thread at this time more than anything else. | ||
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this game is the worst game ever | ||
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Did you block anyone N1 ? | ||
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RB + vig + jail + detect ? either dandel is lying, either Rad is SK | ||
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It was saturday morning, can't I get a little rest ? | ||
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Anyway, I think that dandel is a mafia roleblocker. I would guess that either debears or cheese is in the scumteam. I hae no idea for a third scum. This or Alsn scum and playing with my brain... | ||
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Surprise me and win this game for me tomorrow, would ya ? | ||
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His case against me is just cherry-picking incriminating stuff in my filter to accuse me. He is playing too safe and the way he chose between daoud and ini is weird. debears is now jumping at everything that I write and is screaming SCUM ! SCUM ! either he has shit in his eyes or he really wants me dead | ||
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I think Ini is also town by the way. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote Cheese | ||
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On October 30 2012 07:46 Dandel Ion wrote: Weep in a corner, probably. Prepare your tissues | ||
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Either one of dandel and rad is lying, either we have a SK on top of that | ||
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I don't know how you didn't realize I was town while writting your "meta" section. | ||
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I need your magic ! Please appear and vote Cheese ! | ||
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You are given a name with your role, even if you are town. The host chose this name for me because I'm town and I'm French. Sorry if it is against the rules :s | ||
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I understand now why you want to apply the policy so hard | ||
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Ini ! Roco ! Come back here and vote Cheese ! | ||
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I'm sorry for cluttering the thread like this but I was just trying to spark some discussion I'm sorry for my sloppy posting style full of WIFOM and BS and SLIPS It was very frustrating playing with you guys, I don't understand why I got so much heat during D1 but w/e... I wish you the best for D3, please lynch this Cheese guy for me ^^ But seriously you'll need some lurker magic to win this game... @ Rad I've changed my mind. I'm going to be a fervent supporter of the policy lynch for D1. I'm not going to drop the discussion until everybody agrees on it. Seriously ! @ debears My play is beautiful as scum. Remember for the next time: I never slip when I'm scum ! | ||
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Don't worry Rad, it's your first game... and it's not a very easy game for what I can tell Having 4-5 people with less than one page of filter at the end of D1 is ridiculous. VOTE CHEESE ! NOAW ! | ||
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Guys, I have some magic with the lurkers | ||
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and good luck, you'll need it... voodoo magic, yeah ! | ||
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The game was lost D2 | ||
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Your biggest mistake was to not realize that 4 blues was almost impossible... | ||
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The rest was mainly frustration because I have just been tunneled for 2 days straight @ debears your meta read on me was the thing that really made me changed my mind about you. So much shit in this part^^ | ||
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Im also in sandy game but I think it ll start after | ||
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On November 02 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: Show nested quote + On November 02 2012 09:20 Djodref wrote: Alsn Your biggest mistake was to not realize that 4 blues was almost impossible... not impossible, or even that unlikely. stop it. I have been checking the setups for a few previous newbies and I didn't see 4 blues. Anyway I think I should better trust you on this one Could you explain us how you roll the setups ? Or is this info for hosts only ? | ||
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Your reads were quite good for a first time player. And yes, this game is fucking people up. | ||
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It's ok ! I'm reading the scumQT and I've noticed that you were considering kush as a NK. lol I knew for sure that you believed I was the SK I don't understand why other people didn't pick up on this. The SK shit was really big scumtells | ||
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Do you have a newbie left ? Would you be up for the XXX one ? I'm sure you are going to roll scum in this one | ||
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I agree with you on the conclusion Mafia team played bad Town team played worse + Lurkers Dandel Ion <3 | ||
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On November 02 2012 10:45 Alsn wrote: Also lastly, sorry Djod about lynching you D2, but I was getting pretty frustrated that no one except Team Enigma™ wanted anyone but you lynched. I know right. I was really amazed that they were sheeping me and following my calls but, at the same time, I knew it was looking like the worst shit ever | ||
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