On October 25 2012 10:08 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 10:02 Inigmaticalism wrote:For lurking I think it seems even more of an issue in Newbie games than regular games because too many lurkers results in mafia wins most of the time in the Newbie games I looked at. That said, if we get any confirmed mafia I'll always vote confirmed mafias over suspicious lurkers.
Btw Im a noob ...
That goes without saying. Having a confirmed scum can be hard though.. And is next to impossible day 1 (since no possible DT checks) unless there is a serious slip.
That is why policy lynches day 1 can end up being a necessity.
That said, I'm going to sleep. See you in a few hours.
Dandel comes out and says the difficulty of being sure about a scum lynch d1. He sticks by his point the whole day 1.
On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote:Right on, I'M Back.
To start off
Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 18:40 Djodref wrote:
Regarding Roco, I understand your hunch but he reminds me your first weird posts last game. He is suspicious but he doesn't deserve red bold font yet imo ^^
I kind of disagree. Right now, Roco looks a bit suspicious to me.
Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 16:21 Roco69 wrote:
3/ what about killing guys who speak too much, can it be a strategie ? just to think out of the box
Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote:
@djodref
To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected.
Those statements, they imply that he wants to lynch people that are "too active". That's nonsense.
He doesn't want to follow lurker policy, so he doesn't seem suspicious. Nonsense too.
@Roco:
Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active)
Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum?
Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one)
Until he manages to clarify that:
##FoS RocoI know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it)
But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning?
Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game.
Here he pressures Roco. Well warranted FOS for something ridiculous Roco said.
On October 25 2012 22:48 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 22:43 Djodref wrote:
As for now, the only guy I would like to lynch right now is Inig.
On what do you base that?
All I see is he made no contributions. So did other people. Some didn't even post yet.
If it's what he said, why do you see him as scummier than Roco?
Because I don't, so I'd like to know where this is coming from.
Questions Djo while standing by his lurker policy.
On October 25 2012 22:59 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 22:52 Djodref wrote:On October 25 2012 21:43 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Just woke up fella's, have a few moments to read this over and give my thoughts. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short.
On Debears-Rad incident: Debears came out of the gate swinging; reminiscent of DP from the last newbie game. Personally, I don't like this style of hot-headed pursuit, but it can work. However, I feel the reasons he's giving for Rad being suspicious are ill-founded. There is all this talk of confidence and policy lynching, and everything seems to be a matter of personal opinion rather than a role shining through to the exterior. There may be something there in what Debears has concluded, but I cannot be sure of my opinion of Rad at this time. I'd much rather vote for a lurker atm because the evidence is just not there.
Djodref: I find him to be exceedingly odd. I first thought his initial comment of my "serious policy lynching" to be weird, but with his recent two posts I find him suspicous.
On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote:I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town
How do you
know he's town???
On October 25 2012 18:31 Djodref wrote:On October 25 2012 17:57 Roco69 wrote:
@djodref
To keep it simple, "lurker policy on D1" seems to be a well known and basic strategy so I will do the exact opposite,=>so I will never be suspected.
@RocoI have more questions for you. Why do you want to never be suspected ?
Are you mafia ?
Why would you specifically ask someone about them being mafia. What do you hope to accomplish??? I find these two statements to be suspicious as hell.
##FOS DjodrefI'll be back in about 6 hours, after my classes.
@CheeseCalling daoud town was a slip, I've already explained it.
Regarding you and your "serious policy lynching", I have asked you a question and your answer satisfied me. I don't think you are 100% for a policy lynch anymore. I misinterpreted your post.
Regarding my question "are you mafia?", this is a very uncomfortable question to ask to a mafia player, believe me or not. They have to lie to answer such a question and this is the best way to pressure them imo. So I want to see Roco reaction to this question.
I'm not expecting him to admit that he is mafia. I'm going to gauge his reaction to this question in comparison to my own experience as a mafia player.
Uuuuh
Not really.
You just say "no" as an answer. That's the 'correct' answer for both alignments. I'd imagine you won't be able to interpret much out of those 2 letters.
I know in a post yesterday I semi-seriously pressured Roco to answer that same question, but as I just said, semi-seriously. You seem to really think that's a good strategy, lol.
More suspicions of Djo.
Calls me out for being hypocritical. Shows he is reading the thread.
On October 26 2012 00:53 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:48 debears wrote:
I never said we are lynching a non lurker no matter what. I want to push cases, and if we have something good, then we lynch that person. Lurkers are a last resort. There are most likely 3 mafia. A lynch wasted on a lurker is suboptimal as town if there are people posting some really scummy things.
I basically said the same thing, and you FoS'd me for it.
reference:
Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 10:26 debears wrote:On October 25 2012 10:08 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 25 2012 10:02 Inigmaticalism wrote:For lurking I think it seems even more of an issue in Newbie games than regular games because too many lurkers results in mafia wins most of the time in the Newbie games I looked at. That said, if we get any confirmed mafia I'll always vote confirmed mafias over suspicious lurkers.
Btw Im a noob ...
That goes without saying. Having a confirmed scum can be hard though.. And is next to impossible day 1 (since no possible DT checks) unless there is a serious slip.
That is why policy lynches day 1 can end up being a necessity.
That said, I'm going to sleep. See you in a few hours.
What are you saying here exactly? Policy lynches are by no means a necessity. If we are confident and push reads, like dp did last game, then the scum will show. Why do you lack the confidence of catching scum d1?
FOS dandelBtw guys officially postjng from phone for rest of night. Tell me if something gets messes up and u can't read
Now the question is, did you read my post wrong, or are you being hypocritical?
On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote:@RadMy comments in red in your quoted post.
On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote:
Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum?
I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out.
##Unvote
This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo
1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch.
FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy.2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information).
I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ?3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have.
Please be more specificAll of these things feel scummy to me.
You don't get it.
You establish a lurker-lynch policy early.
Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die"
So they don't lurk.
If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people"
What do lurkers do when they see that?
They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set"
And then they lurk.
Uses good reasoning in explaining his liking of lurker lynch policy when questioned.
On October 26 2012 02:14 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote:@RadMy comments in red in your quoted post.
On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote:
Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum?
I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out.
##Unvote
This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo
1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch.
FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy.2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information).
I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ?3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have.
Please be more specificAll of these things feel scummy to me.
You don't get it.
You establish a lurker-lynch policy early.
Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die"
So they don't lurk.
If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people"
What do lurkers do when they see that?
They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set"
And then they lurk.
I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker).
Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor.
Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch.
By the way, what do you think about Inig ?
I certainly have concerns regarding Inig.
It's been said: He doesn't take a stance on anything.
And that is a worrying behaviour.
As far as my personal scummy lurker ranking goes, I'm still more suspicious of Roco (neither posted in the meantime, so it's hard to change opinion on that)
Show nested quote +I'd like to say that so far, I agree that Roco seems suspicious, but more than anything else, he just makes no sense. More than anything else that's a null read to me, especially with how early in the game we are. However, if his play doesn't change dramatically I would say he is at risk for getting a vote from me simply due to being unhelpful to town.
I know "not making sense" doesn't neccessarily = scum, especially in newbies.
My biggest problem right now, is that he posted those confusing/nonsensical statements, and then just disappeared from the face of earth without explaining himself, even though people called him out on it in a very reasonable timeframe.
Still most suspicious of lurkers.
On October 26 2012 02:27 Dandel Ion wrote:
Well, if they don't vote/post, they'll get replaced or modkilled, so lynching super-lurkers is not only a crapshoot, but also redundant.
Starts getting off Roco because of being a super lurker.
On October 26 2012 04:11 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone.
What scumhunting exactly?
I didn't ever see you do something that would qualify as such.
Show nested quote +Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way.
Pure WIFOM.
You said you wouldn't do it as scum, but if you are scum, you could do it, point at it, and say "I'd never do this as scum".
It's impossible to get a read on your original answer, but the INSTANT you try to argue with "I'd never do this as scum"-WIFOM shit, it gets me riled up.
Don't do that. It doesn't make you look good.
Recognizes WIFOM and calls it out.
On October 26 2012 04:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
He's not going to find scum if he's not actively trying.
That's just sitting back and hoping others do the work for you. And THAT'S the best-case scenario where I, for the sake of this argument assume a town perspective.
Engaging actively with Clarity, who was confrontational. Willing to take the spotlight.
On October 26 2012 19:26 Dandel Ion wrote:
I'm here, I'm here.
There are (or were, at least) some suspicions of Alsn based on his meta, and I just want to weigh in with this:
He said he has college entrace exams tomorrow.
Assuming that's true (and I see no reason why it shouldn't be), that explains his absence. You gotta learn for things like that.
Just to say, I'm not going to be up for an Alan lynch today, in case somebody actually planned to do that. His posts were not scummy so far, and the only argument against him could be meta. Which, in light of this, is not a good argument even. We can revisit this if he still plays like that after Saturday.
He brings up a point that I and others had forgotten about Alsn. That means he is really paying attention to the thread and reading. He shows rational thinking and patience.
On October 26 2012 19:55 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 18:22 Inigmaticalism wrote:If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to.
-Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something.
-Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding fact stuff to post? Really not sure.
-Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town.
-Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing. Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it here:
On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote:
@Roco:
Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active)
Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum?
Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one)
Until he manages to clarify that:
##FoS Roco
I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it)
But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning?
Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game.
He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats anything important, but Ill keep it in mind.
THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated) and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either, just getting everyones policy straight is "important":
On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote:
Now what do you think about:
Lurker policy
Other policy
Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far
Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too.
Talking about policy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later.
Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier. (And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea).
- I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan. Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time.
-Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting.
-Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now.
-And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad, debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff.
I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote.
I would vote for you right now Dandel,
and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my questions, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information.
##Vote: imcaseyTell me why I should not vote for you.
Thanks for digging this up an hour before I would have addressed it anyways.
Why I FoS'd Roco: It should be clear from my post, I would have thought, but I wanted to pressure him. Into explaining himself, into making scumreads, anything.
Sadly, he has not done that.
You probably don't understand this concept, but one of the hardest things in Newbie games is finding out if somebody is bad-town or scum.
Do you honestly think I would have an awesomesauce 100% scumread on somebody after 2 posts? No can do, sorry. Which is why I wanted him to post more, to find out.
He's not done that, which makes him MORE suspicious to me. It can be an intentional strategy: He doesn't post after being under suspicion, then before the deadline he comes in to vote somebody, so he doesn't get modkilled.
The thing now: If he does that, he's confirmed himself scum in my eyes. If he doesn't do that, he gets modkilled for not voting.
Logical conclusion: Despite what I said yesterday about lynching him if he doesn't post (which I primarily said to get him to post), I don't really want to vote him TODAY. Because assuming he keeps the lurking up, he either confirms himself scum or gets modkilled. If he starts posting normally again, I'm gonna have to rethink that again, but seeing as he's been afk for >24 hours already, that's unlikely anyways.
I explained why I like to emphasise lurker policy:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=19#362I even dumbed it down really hard in that post, you should be able to understand it.
No, town benefits from having more information. Your argument IS WIFOM. Again. Stop it.
What's even worse, is that you seem to possess the mental capability to UNDERSTAND lurker policy
(reference:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=10#198Show nested quote +For lurking I think it seems even more of an issue in Newbie games than regular games because too many lurkers results in mafia wins most of the time in the Newbie games I looked at. That said, if we get any confirmed mafia I'll always vote confirmed mafias over suspicious lurkers.
This quote, you not only show that you understand lurkers are a problem for town, yet you find me suspicious for trying to limit the lurking in this game? Because doing something that's good for town and bad for scum, through some random reason translates to "OH BOY THIS GUY IS SUSPICIOUS AS HELL" in your brain?
I don't get it. You're not making sense imo.
AND THE WORST PART:
You do the same fucking thing you accuse me of doing to Roco, just worse. (because casey looks like a serious modkill candidate, and didn't say anything you could derive a scumread from. I was at least going for the lurker that had scummy posts, you just told yourself "Yes, going for a 25% chance of hitting scum is a good idea!")
You're a hypocrite, and I think you're scum. But, in contrast to you, I won't just call you scummy in a big post and then vote a random dude that has a high chance of getting modkilled.
I'm voting you!
##vote Inigmaticalism Consistent with his point about super lurkers getting modkilled. Turned to the more active lurker. Points out the newbie town possibilty, something scum don't do, especially scum in favor of policy lynching.
On October 26 2012 21:00 Dandel Ion wrote:
Kush, I'm going to tunnel you. I also won't give you any BotD anymore. Just a headsup.
Doesn't Kush have the obs qt link?
Tells Kush he will tunnel Kush. Why would a scum outright say that? That calls attention to him self and openly draws suspicion.
On October 26 2012 21:38 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 21:35 sylverfyre wrote:
[...] If he either becomes A) not confusing, B) makes no action at all and makes me believe a modkill is incoming, or C) is replaced and the replacement can make some contribution.
Vote Roco69
I think your sentence is not complete. I hope you meant to say that you will vote somebody else then?
Points out a grammar mistake. As i said, attentively reading the thread.
On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote:
Man, I did get a bit emotional, I admit, but I really do consider him scummy. Not just because he accused me specifically.
I can see, however, that Ingi lynch will probably not go through today, since nobody wants to support it.
I'm keeping my vote on him for now (because, conversely, I don't find the Djo suspicions to be too compelling) and I still have hope that maybe some people will look at it the same way.
Keeps his vote on Inig. Doesn't have a great scumread at that point. Sticking by his lurker lynch policy. Also, wanting to see if people will change their minds to Inig and leaving the possibility open.
On October 27 2012 04:46 Dandel Ion wrote:
I really don't think we should lynch Djo today.
It's been said, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it: With how active he's being, his alignment will show sooner or later.
He might cut back on his posting pace, then that's scummy.
He might contradict himself and slip, that's scummy too.
Or he doesn't do any of those, which I hope will happen.
I understand that his play was scummy-ish at parts, but we can always come back on that. He also at least put effort into staying alive, which is something other people have not done, and frankly, right now, I'd let him live just based off that.
What I'd suggest now, with a bit more than 4 hours left into the day, is that people either:
a) decide between Inig and daoud - good arguments have been made for either.
or
b) if they want to lynch somebody else, present a good reason.
5 people have not even voted. That's actually a horrible position for us.
Inig has his vote absolutely USELESSLY parked on casey, for no reason.
Cheesecake, lynching Djo today is not a good idea. You should decide on somebody else.
Most important is actually that you do whatever you plan to do SOON. If everybody votes and voteswitches only in the hour before the lynch, it will be pure chaos. And I'd prefer to avoid chaos if possible.
Gives a logical response about Djo. Djo has done nothing to give off town vibes since then. Makes sense that he attacks Djo after n1.
On October 27 2012 07:43 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 07:35 kushm4sta wrote:
@debears I did post quotes from daoud last game. The case isn't Omg great but there's not a lot to go off of and I think he is out best option.
Inig has contributed wayyy more. This is clear by sumply comparing their filters.
I don't get your point about the survival instinct. Scum have a stronger survival instinct than town. So unless daoud is scum, it seems like it makes more sense for him to vote daoud if he's scum.
No, it's optimal play for both alignments to stay alive themselves. Scum doesn't want to stay alive "more".
The only exception is if you actively save a claimed blue or a confirmed town. But I sure haven't seen such a thing so far.
And from what I gathered, there is no way Inig has a strong enough town read on daoud for it to make sense to get himself lynched over him.
The only way this is town behaviour is if he doesn't want to play anyways, but his posting so far didn't suggest a lack of motivation.
Thinking about townie and scum motivations. Scum tend to look only at scum motivations, since mafia have to frame people to get them lynched.
On October 27 2012 07:57 Dandel Ion wrote:
To be able to come up with a decent reason, I'd have to know both of their alignments...
This is WIFOM zone, I don't think anything will come out of us guessing about this.
The point is, the way I see it, there is no reason for town OR scum to not vote daoud in that situation. It doesn't make sense, and thus I'm treating it as a nulltell.
Avoiding WIFOM again. Scum love using WIFOM since it lets them justify whatever decision they make.
On October 27 2012 08:55 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:53 Djodref wrote:
ok, I'm really doubting my previous case against you. And you are actually trying to participate.
I don't want to lynch you today.
Problem is I don't want to lynch daoud neither.
What should I do ?
Vote somebody to not get modkilled would be a good start.
Doesn't want wasted votes. Townie tendency.
On October 27 2012 09:13 Dandel Ion wrote:@Inig:
Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:24 Inigmaticalism wrote:I think da0ud and Dandel are a scum team. Reasons for: include they have each only ever talked to each other at least once, and the time Dandel talks to da0ud he says
On October 26 2012 22:56 Dandel Ion wrote:
daoud, I expect better reasoning than that.
It really gets me paranoid when people sheep on cases like you did, this early in the game.
which may be fine but it sounds way too personal for them never have actually talking to each other.
Reasons against: them both jumping on me after accusing Dandel would be poor scum play. And at that point in time, the only other lynch target was Djo. So possible scenarios include them being desperate, meaning Djo is also scum which I find hard to believe, or really was just poor scum play. So idk, it makes more sense to me that they are a scum team but not certain.
Sick association case, tell me more.
Mockery of a d1 association case. Rightly so, association cases are bullshit without a flip.
On October 27 2012 22:36 Dandel Ion wrote:Okay, so here goes:
Djo is looking really scummy now.
Remember the slip calling daoud a townie? By now, I'm thinking that it actually was a scumslip. Djo just said "dw guise, it was a slip, but not a scumslip. Trust me!" And people actually did that.
My take on that: He wanted to buddy up daoud, and slipped in the process.
The day 1 cases against him didn't hold much ground in my eyes, but daoud's flip changes things.
##FoS DjoSo Djo is looking scummy, but I have an even stronger scumread, and I'll tunnel this one (like I promised I would!)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=28#547 (also some later posts, won't link all the relevant ones here)
He comes into the thread, dismisses the Inig cases with some excuse about how he is "sharing his thoughts" (a convenient way to ignore WHAT those thoughts actually were), and proclaims daoud scum instead.
now, the post where daoud voted Inig WAS weird. I'll admit that. I also commented on that when I read it. But it honestly was not such a big deal as Kush pretended it was.
His further points on daoud:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#609He excused Djo's scumslip too easily.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#616He drags out a random quote of daoud from another game, and uses it as "evidence" that his meta is wrong.
Later, he tries to imply a townread on Inig AND a way to subtly imply daoud is scum, just because Inig placed a useless vote on me. Note how this is actually a gigantic logical fallacy, since for this to hold true, he has to look at it from the perspective that Inig is scum, but he somehow draws the conclusion that town is more likely to do that? Wat?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#625http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#629I CONSIDER THIS A SCUMSLIP, since he does logic assuming Inig is scum, even though he doesn't get tired of soft-defending Inig and excusing him as "newbie town" (a horrible defense, I think we agreed on that already), and even when he says he considers it a null-tell, he is trying to make it look as something town is more likely to do (which, by the way, is wrong too)
Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 22:06 kushm4sta wrote:
Someone give me a meta read on debears. Is he usually this angry and rambunctious? I don't know his meta but it seems kind of fake to me.
And also his little stunt in the pony thread could be something to try to convince people following that thread that he is town.
(I actually did this when I got mafia several games ago)
You played scum WITH debears.
Don't act like you don't know him. His scum meta is something you should be perfectly familiar with. So I don't believe your "I don't know" bullshit. It just looks like you're trying to sow baseless suspicions.
Same with this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=36#713You're trying to imply suspicious behaviour in another thread, from a relatively random comment, that doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with this game at all. That's bad enough.
But then the part about how he PM'd you? wtf is this even trying to accomplish? If somebody PMs you, and you actually have a problem with it, you PM the host. Don't go into the thread to wave it around.
And then you act like it's a null read anyways? WHY THANK YOU FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION
You're just trying to shit up the thread and undermine the position of somebody that most people (including me) have a townread on.
##FoS Kush A good post on Kush. Kush selectively used meta, as I found out later. Ends up it was just bad townie play. Also, calls out Kush for "forgetting" playing with me. Yet, kush made a comment in the pre game that I wouldn't be a good coach. That was an extremely odd thing that Kush said. I was suspicious of Kush for similar reasons.
On October 27 2012 23:37 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 23:35 Djodref wrote:On October 27 2012 22:55 kushm4sta wrote:
haha @ all the people theorizing scumteams.
you're being dumb
@ KushIf you are town, I recommend you to refrain from posting this kind of stuff. I have been provocative in this game and I regret it. You could be tunneled forever for this kind of post.
I WILL tunnel him forever.
His play is painted in red, and then this response?
Yeah, he's scum.
Aggressive stance after making a case. Mentions tunneling again. Taking the spotlight.
On October 28 2012 03:56 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 03:48 Alsn wrote:On October 28 2012 03:38 kushm4sta wrote:
I participated in the qt but I didn't follow the game close at,all. ,you can see from some of my posts that I have no idea what's going on.
Fine then. I'll drop that part of my slight suspicions against you. Barring more information I probably consider you slight town at this point then.
What?
He played an ENTIRE game, with debears IN his scumteam, both surviving the whole game.
And you just believe him, because .... Hell, I don't know why you would. You sure as hell didn't say.
Really...
Calls out people who are making retarded statements. Townie thing to do.
On October 28 2012 04:51 Dandel Ion wrote:
Rad, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I have a hard time getting behind an argument that's based on a pregame joke, combined with what might possibly be an association case. I'm not even sure what to call it.
Thank you for understanding.
While he has been accusing Kush, refuses to use the retarded case by Rad as backup to his own case. Wouldn't scum just use the momentum to push their case more?
On October 28 2012 05:06 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 05:00 kushm4sta wrote:
So you honestly don't believe that I didn't realize that was debears on my scumteam that game? and you think I'm making it all up?
I know you're not the smartest guy around, but I'm not sure if even you are that... absent.
Though, looking at what you are throwing around in this thread, you might be.
I have, however, promised myself to not exuse anything you do with the explanaition of "stupid" anymore. Because of that same game. So yes, I think you are lying. I'm not going to give you any BotD. Had you read the thread, this wouldn't come as a surprise to you.
Cocky and insulting like his townie self.
On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote:
If I'm dead, please lynch Kush.
2nd priority would be Inig.
- I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them.
I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him.
debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong.
Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads.
Thinks he might be nked and calling out reads of important actives. No extra bullshit. While a mafia is capable of this, the relevance to the active players makes it a bigger townie tell.
On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote:
Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver?
Is there something you want to tell us?
Calling out people who seem to "know" why the nks happened the way they did before the vig claim. Scum love to speculate on nks cause it gives them somehting to talk about and mislead the town.
On October 28 2012 20:03 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 10:17 Djodref wrote:On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote:
Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver?
Is there something you want to tell us?
@ dandelPlease show me in my post where I'm "so certain". I'm using conditional verbal forms...
>.>
Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:29 Djodref wrote:I think sylver has been killed for this post
On October 25 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote:
I feel like asking everyone a loaded question, but one that makes sense for a newbie game:
If you're not completely new to mafia (maybe you've played a few games IRL/elsewhere, or this isn't your first game on TL)
What's your favorite role to play in mafia?
I feel like I'm one of few who actively enjoys being a vanilla townie more than scum or a power-townie. It feels that much better when you're part of a victory! Maybe I'm wrong in this being an uncommon choice of favorite role, though.
I would say mafia was trying to snipe a blue and managed to do it.
Regarding Kush death, I would say vig or SK. Both makes sense.
But jailkeeper + vig + detective seems imba so I think we have a SK.
Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:31 Djodref wrote:
By the way, if mafia is blue sniping, I would think that they have nobody on their ass right now.
Your posts heavily imply that mafia is bluesniping Sylver, and you don't even aknowledge the possibility that Kush was the scum KP.
Cheesecake's point about how fast you found a good reason to kill Sylver is also pretty good in my opinion. I mean, I checked his filter again, too, but I didn't even really think about that. To me, it sounds plausible that you've thought about it beforehand.
I just want you to admit shooting either of them. You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK.
Now, my sample size is not the biggest, but I played a single game with a SK.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548 (doesn't say in the OP, but it's thrawn)
And your play feels SO MUCH like thrawn's that game, it's not even funny.
Since there's been no Vig claim, I'll have to assume a SK in the game now. Because it doesn't really make sense to NOT claim vig, he'd have no shots left, and would be, for all intents and purposes, be confirmed town. Which is something I'd like very much, at this point.
Reasons to not claim Vig: If you're actually the SK and you'd incriminate yourself when there comes another night with 2 NKs. That's it.
Conclusion: Djo is either SK, or scum. Both are reasons to lynch him, to me.
##Vote DjodrefThat said, does anybody even care about this game anymore?...
The Djo may be SK post. Acknowledges Djo may be either. Also, attacks Djo for speculating bluesniping, which is anti-town. In any case, eliminating the SK or Mafia is a positive for town. Especially when someone has a good chance to be either. And a SK isn't necessarily good for town since a SK would have to be able to accurately hit mafia with nks. You can't say wanting to lynch a SK is anti-town.
On October 28 2012 21:40 Dandel Ion wrote:
What Alsn said.
I don't know which one is the scum kill.
It's more likely it's Sylver, that I admit. But in no way, shape or form is it IMPOSSIBLE that Kush was the scum kp.
If I wanted to speculate up reasons for it, I could come up with some. But it would be pretty useless specuation, and most importantly, fluffing up the thread.
You unwillingness to even aknowledge the possibility that kush was scum-killed, reads to me like you have relevant information on the subject.
That's why I think you were involved in one of the kills. If you're SK, you most likely killed Kush, if you're scum, I could see a reason for you to kill either.
You're right that this lynch is pretty fucking important. That's why I don't want to waste time twiddling my thumbs like you all seem to prefer. We're already full of lurkers that probably don't read the thread more than once per day. So what rationale do you have for NOT pushing your reads early?
If you wait until right before the flip, it won't do shit, because 3/4ths of the game won't even be there.
Ergo, I think I'm pretty damn justified in pushing my read early.
Yet again, avoiding WIFOM. Pushing a read confidently without much help behind him before the vig claim. Calling you and Djo out confidently. Very townie post.
On October 28 2012 21:45 Dandel Ion wrote:
SK is also more likely in my mind because nobody really defends you, except really soft defenses. You look more "alone" than a scum would, in my opinion.
That, or your scumbuddies are lurking, which would also explain it.
Oh, and I also played a game as scum against Kush, and we didn't feel like we had to kill him, even though he was the claimed JK. We killed Alsn the VT instead (who played approx. 300 times better in that game, btw). So I understand all about scum not killing Kush. The thing is, I can't rely on scum reaching the same conclusion that I would.
Mentions that the lack of support for Djo could be SK or scum strat (believe it or not scum outright avoid talking about each other since they don't have to keep their story straight on a partner. I did it when I was scum in my first game.)
The next posts are the flaming, which he as town did against me in our first game when he thought my case was complete bullshit. Similar response to your case Alsn, no?
On October 28 2012 23:24 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 23:21 Alsn wrote:
Oh and no, I don't buy your supposed reasons for tunnelling kush. He presented a case on da0ud that made sense. He did so with what we now know to be pure intentions. Simply tunnelling him because you don't want to find out his intentions the proper way is bad strategy at best and at worst it's scum motivated.
Uhm, no?
I have a scum feel from somebody, I'll tunnel him for as long as it takes for him to look town to me, instead.
Kush didn't give me any reason to assume he was town, so I had to keep assuming he was scum.
Again mentioning tunneling. Saying things that can easily pointed out as suspicious by scum.
On October 28 2012 23:36 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 23:35 Djodref wrote:
@ Cheese
I cannot accept you saying that I'm scum or SK. In my opinion, SK is played differently because you don't have a team and you don't have extra information as SK.
If you are saying that I'm scum, stick with it and go find my scumbuddies. It is going to be difficult because I have none.
Also I would recommend you not being stubborn and read my defense against your case again. Could I have your comments on it ?
So you WANT people to make association cases?
I'm not sure you understand how this works.
Also, if your buddies are both lurkers, that's also an explanaition for the lack of defense.
Gives explanations for Alsn's (and Djo's sheeping) WIFOM on how scum buddies would have defended Djo, which Alsn doesn't know at all and is purely speculating about.
On October 29 2012 12:11 Dandel Ion wrote:Okay, firstly, sorry for raging out in the thread. I shalt respond, entirely devoid of any insults.
Alsn's original case+ Show Spoiler +On October 28 2012 22:31 Alsn wrote:Ok, I'm going to preface this by some WIFOM, although I think it's merited in this case.
Looking at the situation right now, the
only one at risk of lynching seems to be Djodref. More importantly, he seems to be completely alone in his plight. I think he's scummy, but this fact alone leads me to believe that one of the following three options
must be true:
- Djod is not mafia and all of us suspecting him are all town.
- Djod is not mafia and some of the people suspecting him are scum.
- Djod is mafia and no scum is defending him, in fact, no one has defended him for the entire length of the game.
Looking at these scenarios, and I'm convinced they're the only ones possible, I find the last one to be extremely unlikely. While myself and others have at times at least questioned whether or not Djod was all that super scummy, no one that I know has ever diverted a hypothetical Djod lynch unless it was done very subtly. In fact, the only argument that I feel can be made that he is scum and other scum has diverted attention away from him is the lynches against Inig and da0ud. Kush(and admittedly to a lesser extent myself) were responsible for the latter, while the lynch against Inig was Djod himself in tandem with debears(and possibly someone else, I don't remember, please correct me here if I'm wrong). Lastly, Djod actually switched his vote from Inig to da0ud and was the last one to do so IIRC. To me, scum "securing" a lynch on a townie makes no sense whatsoever. The only ones at risk of actually vote switching near a lynch are actual scum, so protecting themselves against a switch is meaningless.
That to me leaves the first two options and in both of them Djod is not scum. Sure, he
could be SK and his actions don't really dispute that but to be honest, I would rather have a possible SK(and I'm not convinced he is) left alone and actually try and lynch mafia. Mostly because an SK isn't that worrisome if we still have a pretty good town vs scum majority.
For that reason, I looked at the possibilities left. Either scum is keeping really quiet and all of us accusing Djod are town, or scum are in fact trying to get Djod lynched. I find the latter more likely, although unfortunately I don't really have a good explanation for why I think that is, it's basically just a hunch, although not an insignificant one.
With that in mind, I went through both Mr. Cheese' and Dandel's filters and lo and behold, upon closer inspection I can't really find any good reasons to think that they are town. Sure, Cheese hasn't done anything particularly scummy but looking at his behaviour as a whole he hasn't done anything particularly town either.
Basically, Cheese's actions amount to suspecting Djod and... well, that's pretty much it. Apart from arguing semantics and policy, that's pretty much his entire contribution.
On the other hand, Dandel is in the same boat, with added baggage in fact. His contributions also amount to pretty much only suspecting Djod but with the added bonus that he said several times that he would tunnel kush, seemingly for no apparent reason. In fact I think the SK/vig(whoever it may be) killing kush actually messed things up quite a bit as I'm now thinking Dandel's entire plan was to tunnel kush simply because he's not a very hard target to attack(for those of you who are new, kush has a... let's say "vivid", reputation). Especially since he got a townie lynched.
Finally, almost every single post of Dandel so far in the game has been fluffy at best, scummy at worst. He kept bringing up policy voting well after most people had started talking about it, as if he wanted the discussion to continue. His so called "case" on Inig was pure OMGUS and finally, his unwillingness to actually switch from that OMGUS case even though he actually admitted himself that it wasn't a very good case. In fact, the two people that could have actually been switched to were either Djod(who he at the time had said he wasn't convinced was scummy) and da0ud(for reasons I now suspect he didn't want to be associated with vote flipping onto a townie).
So, to sum up my case for why
Dandel Ion is
scum- Lots of useless posts, particularly lots of posts nitpicking on people's arguments instead of entirely disagreeing with them.
- Not wanting to switch from Inig even though his reasons for voting him were weak and OMGUS.
- His absolutely ridiculous strategy of tunnelling kush no matter what for no apparent reason whatsoever.
- The context of the last point revealing kush to be green but supposedly killed by an SK and not scum.
I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this matter, since I'm feeling pretty good about my case at this point.
Oh and,
##Vote: Dandel Ion So, he not only prefaces, but pretty much BASES his case on WIFOM. Not the most optimal strategy to start with. So, the first half of the post is complete fluff and only makes it look like that case has more content/base than it actually has.
Then, he says Cheese and I are similar in that we only suspect Djo and nobody else, but I somehow have "added baggage". I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but okay. Had he read my filter properly though, he would've been able to see that me only suspecting Djo is far from the truth.
Oh wait, in fact, he
does see that it's far from the truth. In the SAME paragraph where he says I only suspect Djo, he even aknowledges that I also suspected Kush. (I also supect(ed) Inig btw.) This is a blatant contradiction and I stopped reading here the first time I saw it.
Then, he determines that "every" post I made was either fluff or scummy. I made some posts that could be considered fluff for most people, I suppose. So, okay, whatever. But he states no reason for calling "every" other post I ever made scummy. In fact, he doesn't even point out a single one.
If you think my play is "scummy" overall, then say that. If you come out with things like "all his posts are scummy", and can't even point out a single one, then this signals to me that you can't do so, BUT you want your words to have stronger impact. And there is no reason to look for that, unless you know yourself that your case is not as good as you'd like it to be.
"The-guy-that-is-always-the-second-one-to-go-after-somebody" debears:+ Show Spoiler +On October 29 2012 00:23 debears wrote:
@Dandel
Flame fest is anti-town. If you think Alsn's case isn't good, actually argue against his points. Otherwise, your actions so far imply that you think you are guilty and you can't refute his case.
##Vote Dandel
This vote is staying put unless you explain yourself and the case of Alsn and do some scumhunting
I don't think that could've been called a "flame fest" yet, but opinions vary I suppose. Yes, that's my contentless response to a contentless sheeping.
Because he asks for it all the time:+ Show Spoiler +On October 29 2012 00:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:@ Dandel
Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 23:27 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@ Dandel
What's all this stuff about you being confused and unsure? Yeah, the thread is jampacked with goodies concerning multiple participants, but that's to be expected. Don't try to play the "confused" card. It's almost as bad as the "noobie-card"
I also want an answer to this question you so conveniently avoided. Why playing the confused card? I thought you were against the noobie card, which is basically the same?
I was not actively trying to play the newbie card, and I can't do much more than say that.
I WAS confused, which is why I acted confused. I think I may have even said that I was, and I honestly didn't think about how it would "look" to others.
I can't say much more than that on this matter. Take it or leave it.
"Hey-guys-we-didn't-do-any-NK-speculations-yet" Djodref:+ Show Spoiler +On October 29 2012 10:14 Djodref wrote:
Regarding dandel, I've found him very quick to accuse me as a SK at the beginning of D2. I know that he is saying that I'm SK or scum but his posts strongly imply that I'm more SK than scum (he brings thrawn meta in and says I'm more likely to be SK than scum). It makes a lot of sense from a mafia point of view.
It's true that I didn't consider the fact that Kush could have been killed by the mafia and that I have found a possible reason for the mafia to have targeted sylverfire quite fast. It was obvious for me that mafia would never had killed Kush because of my experience of the last game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kush is never NKed by the mafia when he rolls town.
Anyway, I should have looked like I had some extra information about the night kills. So, from a mafia point of view, I really should be looking like a SK. I find it very strange that dandel didn't wait that long for a vig to claim. Getting a SK lynched is good for the image I guess so he comes at me very fast with a weird meta argument to support the fact that could be SK.
[u]To sum up[u]
Scum dandel knows that I'm not going to flip scum. Reacting to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side, he comes at me very fast saying that I'm SK (not waiting for a claim, backing it up with poor arguments). He doesn't have the time to go through 18 pages of Thrawn's filter. Seriously, it makes so much sense !
Town dandel would have reacted slower to an apparent extra information about the NKs from my side. It doesn't tell if I'm scum or SK (please check Cheese reaction to see the difference). His reaction could have been possible but it makes less sense.
##Unvote
##Vote Dandel
You keep implying that I came after you "very fast", but that is a straight up lie. I gave you EASILY enough time to claim.
I ask: "Is there something you want to tell us?"
You seem to not want to tell us anything out of your own accord, so OVER 10 HOURS LATER, I make my post where I accuse you of being scum/SK.
(This could've been avoided if Rad was faster at claiming, but better late than never.)
You, Djo, will be happy to hear that I don't think you're the SK anymore, and you went back to being only Scum to me.
You somehow arrive at how I "don't have the time to look through thrawn's filter", and I don't even know how you got to that assumption, or how it's relevant at all. But it's now redundant anyways. Honestly though, I probably couldn't point out a single collection of posts and point at it saying "this is where I got my scum/SK read on him", because he didn't have any obvious slips in there. He just posted a metric shitton and I always got a scummy feel off his posts. Which is pretty much what I get from you, only you post things that are slips, or at least look like them to me.
Your "case", or post, or however you want to call it, is oddly similar to Alsn's too, in that 50% of it is speculation and WIFOM, which should have no place in there, and which I suspect is there only so that it makes it look like you had anything to actually base your read on. But I haven't seen anything.
Oh, and I'm going to say this again, I was pushing for your lynch because you were either scum or SK. The chance of you flipping town are and were incredibly slim in my mind.
Makes a defense case with good reasoning about WIFOM. Slightly flames me in line with his town meta.
On October 29 2012 12:13 Dandel Ion wrote:
And Inig tries to tell people that town doesn't need to lynch SKs...
This game, man.
I'm going to sleep.
Shows clear frustration about the game. Has done this multiple times this game with the crazy amount of lurking.