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Newbie Mini Mafia XXIX - Page 5

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debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 16:33 GMT
#565
@Alsn

That's fine. I just want content and input on big cases from anyone. You seem to be skipping out on sections of the thread which are vital to the game
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 16:47 GMT
#572
On Inig

Town/Scum reads

On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would
lynch one of the lurkers probably
. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while
your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?

-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours.


Posts like this alarm me. Scum usually have a harder time making scumreads since they can't be. Also, he says
he would rather lynch a lurker when there is plenty of time to keep scumhunting. I don't get why he would be
ready to say that already.

Speading Suspicion

+ Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:


Why we should lynch Inig




First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take
you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself.

I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons

  • Total lack of scumhunting
  • Emotionally detached from this game
  • Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument


Total lack of scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +

Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a
total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the
motives of anyone.

On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up.



On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would
lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your
asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?

-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours.


As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions.


Emotionally detached from this game
+ Show Spoiler +

When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This
is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in
his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing

style.
On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote:
I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong,
but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia)
having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to
be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to
be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons
about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other.
It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you
Rad cause I was getting slightly worried.

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote:
EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I
said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said.


Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me:

Show nested quote +
You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if
you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me.
Does it not to you?


@ sylver
You seem firly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all
that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite.
......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question

indeed.



Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument
+ Show Spoiler +

This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini

in bold font.
On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
/snip

As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-
finding,but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role
is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I
would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia,
I would have simply ignored the question
all together, but it seems no one took it that way.

How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ?
Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows

his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument.




Alright here we go.

1. I deny nothing about not scum hunting. I have only had time to read the thread, and have found town looking
players: debears, rad, djo(tho im not sure anymore, more on that later). As I said, I will have time in a few
days to do proper scum hunting. If you feel that is not a risk worth taking, so be it. Ill give my scum
hunting/reading in my next post.
-And, if your going to pull out reasons to lynch me based not on what I have done, but what I havent
done, then perhaps you should also look at Oats and Imcasey who havent scumhunted OR contributed (or at least
tried) Or posted at all.

2. Ha I am anything BUT emotionally detached from this game. In fact, Ive been getting so emotional I dont
think I can or should play mafia games and just go back to watching/reading them. All the logical things I
want to say and rules I want to follow fly out the window, and its dumb. Here is Mr cheesecake calling me out
on it:

Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 13:02 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
And to respond to Djodref, since he is always asking about people's reads on Inig.

On Inig: The only two things I find suspicious about him are

A.) Him throwing a tantrum over the WIFOM incident. "This argument is stupid" etc.

I actually almost rage-quit and threw out on-purpose made-up scumslips and such, so I just got to working on
homework and stepped away. Im not sure why you said im emotionally detached. Very odd. But you are right about
spectating. In the particular post you quoted of mine, I was attempting to get Rad and Debears to drop their
argument because it had shown me they were town and should therefore work together. Course they ignored me and
kept on arguing policies and confidences and whatnot. So your accusation is false, unless you leave off the
word 'emotional'.

3. Gaining town credit. I am going to split this definition so I can understand what you mean. I put that
there originally to be a flag that I was town, for ppl to pick up on. Then cause no one got it or was simply
silent about it, I used it as a defense, and then it became a WIFOM, or so im told. I understand a
little better how WIFOM works cause I didnt know before (ironically it was you Djo who told me so) but Im
probably still going to mess that up again in the future. So ya I used a WIFOM argument. I originally wanted

(before the wifom) to gain town 'status' by showing I was town.
Now town credit would certainly come by that. I see town credit as town standing, as in how much people
listen to you. I actually think since you are the first one to bring this up you are a lot more interested in
it. You can believe I was trying to get town credit all you want, but what would I use it for? What cases do I
have to push? None. Even if I did get town credit, it would have been of no use to me, and it still isnt of
any use to me now.

And to put it out there in case I wasnt clear, I am a Vanilla Townie. "Ya, sure, everyones a
town, etc". I know I wouldnt believe the claim I just made up front either. Im just letting you know Im not
gonna come out with some crazy blue claim or cry for medic support later on. No tricks here.

Last, I found a some fun information on Djo:

Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 13:12 Djodref wrote:
On October 26 2012 12:18 debears wrote:
@Djo

Do you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page.

On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote:
On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote:
So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other

people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS?

On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote:
On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears

You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you
immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your
idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one
takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically
follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.

You are advocating chaos.

If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements
like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.

##FoS debears


@Clarity

I don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We
could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy
for mafia to avoid a policy lynch.

By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ?
What do you think of Inig ?


On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote:
On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote:
On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote:
@Rad

My comments in red in your quoted post.

On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote:
On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote:
Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum?

I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out.

##Unvote


This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo

1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a
policy lurker lynch.
FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my
opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the
beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in
order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy.

2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's
not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information).
I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather
than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ?

3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original
statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really
should have.
Please be more specific
All of these things feel scummy to me.


You don't get it.

You establish a lurker-lynch policy early.
Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die"
So they don't lurk.

If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people"
What do lurkers do when they see that?
They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set"
And then they lurk.


I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6
hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker).

Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on

their favor.
Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would
appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at
all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch.

By the way, what do you think about Inig ?

On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote:
On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote:
My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in
itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their
opinions and such).

The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far
amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for
supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to
believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility
of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on
you.

So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref.

I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do
it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then.


@Alsn

I would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me
What do you think about Inig ?





Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post.

I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum

. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini.


Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like
scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead
town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts.
If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be
honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty.


@debears

I think Inig fits the category of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. I don't like them much.
Regarding Alsn, him lurking like this is not fitting his town meta at all. I'm quite suspicious of him at the
moment. Moreover, I'm expecting a town Alsn to give more reasons for FoS me. I'm just trying to push him to
check if his FoS was faked or not.


Which means that Djo is voting because he thinks I am a semi-lurker, not because I am scum. He does however

clarify better here:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 14:02 Djodref wrote:

I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality.
It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to
give their thoughts about him.

Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't
want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to
rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy,
nor for the policy.

I think your FoS is forced by the way...


So then he does say he thinks I am scum. So all I really want you to clarify Djo is whether you think I am
actually scum, or am just the scummiest looking semi-lurker. If its the latter, based on what youve said at
the beginning of the game that doesnt fit you. I would want to have more solid proof of scum. Although it is
day 1 so....
I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me
too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and
style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he
thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought.


Fun facts:
-Djo labeled me and Dandel as scumteam in pre-game
*Personally with all his questions I think Djo is trying to get all his friends to tell him about me cause he

secretly wants to date me


So Inig says Djo is 70% town, but in the same sentence Inig brings up a possible SK or vig read, stating that
Djo thinks Djo is just "seeing who he can get lynched". First, vigs don't do that, nor any townie for that
matter. Scum do that. How does he give a town read, then a vig or SK read based on this information?


Next, he moves onto Cheesecake

On October 26 2012 16:35 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Also, I now have some suspicion on Cheesecake. I like pretty much every post hes given actually, except this

one:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
On October 26 2012 07:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Oh ok. Guess Ill not try to make myself look like a townie in the thread. Might get mistaken as WIFOM.
So then what would be a wifom defense vs a non wifom defense? You can argue anything that way a long as you

dont like it. I find just about every argument/case presented so far to be stupid and pointless.


I'm not sure how to comprehend this answer. Inig is obviously very distressed, as he's discrediting everything
by calling it blatantly "stupid and pointless". Either he doesn't know how to form a coherent response to an
accusation or is cracking under pressure.

I don't like the response at all. With him going afk after this, I'm beginning to get suspicious of him.



Oh ya and look cheese also calls me out about being emotional and freaking out in thread. His arguments good
too, although I wish he put in a 'outside mafia influences' reason as well, but thats fine. I actually have
found cheese to be more likely town than I said djo was, so this is why I called this out.
-This point is not doing anything other than saying he read it. Like my earlier posts, it doesnt really

contribute at all, doesnt really push me either except in the most indirect of ways.
-The 'Im beginning to get suspicious of" me. Ive re-read my own filter. Cheese you should already

be suspicious of me, not beginning to be. Ive barely been pro-town at all.
-While those points are fun and are probably included in numerous posts in this game, I call it out because it
seems like Cheese is simply trying to look good by joining a case that had potential to go somewhere (and so
far has). I think what Im trying to say is that I read it and then after re-reading it I realized it had 0
content, but it looked like it did. No treally a scum-tell, but I guess I saw it because it seemed different
than his other posts.


A pretty inconclusive post. Spreads some seeds of suspicion without making a real read.

Next, is a suspicion corral post from inig

+ Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2012 18:22 Inigmaticalism wrote:
If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to.
-Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes
something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something.
-Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but
once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding
fact stuff to post? Really not sure.
-Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and
then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he
voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more
posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its
ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town.
-Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who
post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been
fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing.
Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he
doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it

here:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote:

@Roco:
Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active)
Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find

scum?

Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one)


Until he manages to clarify that:
##FoS Roco

I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my

first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it)
But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning?
Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his

first game.


He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in
the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats
anything important, but Ill keep it in mind.

THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated)
and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either,
just getting everyones policy straight is "important":

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote:

Now what do you think about:
Lurker policy
Other policy
Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far

Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too.
Talking about policy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd
really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later.


Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch
scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I
would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier.
(And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea).

- I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan.

Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time.

-Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes
said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One
of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get
to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me

a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting.
-Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what

hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now.
-And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad,

debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff.

[red]I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote.
I would vote for you right now Dandel, and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my

questions
, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information.

##Vote: imcasey
Tell me why I should not vote for you.


Notice the intro, puts suspicion on Alsn, Sylvers, Roco, and Dandel. What is the point of that??? He only
pursues Dandel. Oh, and then after making a case on dandel, and saying dandel is the scummiest so far, he
votes imcasey, who he failed to mention in the intro........Very very odd.

Also, if he wants dandel to truly answer his questions, why wouldn't he just vote dandel, who hasn't been
under pressure up to this point. Most of all, is his "I would vote you right now" hidden at the bottom of a
long post right before a vote on another player? It seems like he is trying to get his case ignored so he
doesn't have to explain/argue it to Dandel.


A Possible Scumslip

On October 26 2012 16:43 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Oh ok ya, so then your 3rd argument is correct. My thoughts were : [red]"If I was not able to find or given
strong scum reads, next best thing is try to build up the confirmed town."
I thought that was good,
is it bad? Or just how I went about trying?


Who is the confirmed town? As I see it, not a single one of us is. This statement heavily implies that he
knows who the townies are, "the confirmed town".

Ok....for some reason my post refused to format red and double spaced half the damn thing. I did what I could to edit it lol.

FOS Inig
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 17:02 GMT
#577
On October 27 2012 01:34 kushm4sta wrote:
@debears
Djo does look scummy just from my first read through. I need to consider his case in more depth (planning on doing that after d1).
I'm not sure he is a viable d1 lynch though. This is because 1 he is active, 2 he is trying to change his meta. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding him.

@djodref
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote:
@Kush

Debears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him.

I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight.
I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even.

I would say sylver right now...

But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while.

I didn't ask you for town reads. I asked you for scum reads.
You soft defend sylver in the wishy washiest way possible ("he had some nice reactions") then you give him as your biggest scumread.
Stop overdefending yourself. Start being helpful.



Kush I haven't looked at your Dauod case yet. I am still going to consider Djo for the fact that I see the inference that he has extra information and that he is capable of roleplaying very well (the noobie card in his two games). I think he's fully capable of acting.

However, I do see your point on his activity. If he is scum, it will most likely show day 2.

What do you think of my thoughts on Inig?

@Djo

The post about your defense I mentioned earlier should be coming here in a while
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 17:10 GMT
#581
@Djo

About the previous case. I believe this was the most important part and you didn't really address it

"Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean???????
So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia."

Also, why were you so adamant to say that you didn't think I was town, when you have recently stated that you pretty much did ("townie vibes") and most definitely acted like it? If you were town, I feel that you would stick by your read instead of flip flopping when someone gets on you about it
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 18:19 GMT
#597
I don't know if my team is practicing today. Our game got rained out.
I'm gonna lay down my vote right now in case i don't get back in time

##Vote Inig

For the reasons i posted in my case on him. Right now, i am willing to keep djo around based on his activity. If he is scum it will show

Hopefully ill be back before the lynch
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 22:13 GMT
#624
I'm back for a bit.

Something I want to comment on with Inig's vote

On October 27 2012 05:50 Rad wrote:
Inig, you not voting da0uds is super interesting to me.

I feel like your safest vote to stay alive is da0uds. If you want to stay alive, you vote him.

Alternatively though, you may know that and realize if you vote da0uds you look bad.

Here are some interesting things about Inig:

1. He claimed vanilla townie in the past.
2. He was forced to make a vote here and he did not choose da0uds. Instead he chose Dan. Dan currently has no chance of being lynched today unless something crazy comes up, so the vote on Dan was worthless.
3. If he is indeed vanilla townie, and he does not quite trust his current reads on da0ud and dan, it would be the best town play to a) keep himself alive if possible (change vote from imcasey) and b) let others who are more well informed make the more educated vote. Voting for da0uds when he's really uncertain is just taking a chance, and da0uds is currently in second place to be lynched today, so there's a lot of pressure on Inig's vote (if he's town).

I had a null read on him before but it was extremely confusing one way or the other. With this I'm leaning townie for Inig. Anyone want to jump in and help analyze his decision here? I'm open to whatever thoughts people have and please help me if I'm making a WIFOM argument here.


His vote on Dandel MAKES NO SENSE AS TOWN

1) The only person a townie knows is town is themself. Thus, if Inig is town, he could not know if Dauod is town.
2) A townie's job is to survive in a lynch when that townie does not know the other person is town
3) Since Inig clearly could not know if Dauod is town if Inig is town, then why would Inig not fight to survive.

Townies should fight when they are about to be lynched, even if that means voting for an opponent who they are not sure about when the vote is close. They know that, if they can avoid being lynched, that is necessarily one more townie staying alive.

Inig is wasting a vote on someone who is not getting lynched today unless something drastic happens.

When someone does something that makes no sense as town, they are almost certainly scum, regardless of how much sense that action makes as scum.
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 22:25 GMT
#626
@Kush

On October 27 2012 00:30 kushm4sta wrote:
Hi guys I read the thread (not super close towards the end though because I wanted to finish).

I think we should lynch Daoud.

He is posting just enough to be considered not a lurker. This level of activity is exactly what you want to lynch d1.

He catches Djo in the classic "scumslip," which does not always indicate scum, but that's not important.
"Why did you call me town djo?"
Then he says oh there might be a sk I guess my point is invalid. Makes no sense.
Bringing it up in the first place is a null tell, because it's an easy catch. But dropping it for such a stupid reason, that is scummy.

This is his most significant post so far:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 22:41 da0ud wrote:
Ebwop : sorry phone posting. Ill finsih the post :

Deb and rad have been so active and poking at each otjers that they actually look very townie to me. Pushing ideas, bringing content, putting pressure.

Talking about smileyDjo he has put a lot of pressure on people. Asking open questions etc. For having played a game with him where he played to nice lovable newbie card, I believe he is trying to step up and actually be a leader for town. I put him 90% town.

I totally hate the lurkers who actually do not post anything and hide to avoid potential suspicions. Id rather lynch lurking townie first day who doesn't help get info and push others to scumslip.

If scum are among active player we will have time to hunt them down. They will contradict themselves.

And we have semi lurkers like roco or blending ini. Which are pretty much as bad for town.

I would like to put my vote on Ini at the moment cause roco seems like a total newbie trying to stand out.

##Vote Ini


So he gives off some town reads. Djo is 90% town... what the fuck. I don't see how you can think that after playing last game with him. Asking open questions makes him 90% town? ok
Show nested quote +

I totally hate the lurkers who actually do not post anything and hide to avoid potential suspicions. Id rather lynch lurking townie first day who doesn't help get info and push others to scumslip.

This is such a weird time to talk about lurkers, unless he is giving that as his reason for voting Ini, but Ini isn't even close to the biggest lurker.

So why is he voting for ini? 2 words: "Blending in." Sick case bro.

##vote da0ud



I need some clarity on this case. It's based off

1) He's a Semi-lurker
2) He is giving off pretty much only town reads (including the percentage ones)
3) Generally blending into the thread
4) A difference in posting styles in his meta

on point 4) do you have specific posts that illustrate the difference?

Also, I'd say that Inig has done similarly in points 1-3
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 22:28 GMT
#628
@Kush

I see what you mean that it's possible. Still, I would think that your first instinct, as any alignment, is to survive. And the fact that he said he wanted to lynch Dandel earlier but then parked his voted on imcasey at the end of his own dandel case just isn't right.
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:10 GMT
#642
On October 27 2012 07:35 kushm4sta wrote:
@debears I did post quotes from daoud last game. The case isn't Omg great but there's not a lot to go off of and I think he is out best option.

Inig has contributed wayyy more. This is clear by sumply comparing their filters.

I don't get your point about the survival instinct. Scum have a stronger survival instinct than town. So unless daoud is scum, it seems like it makes more sense for him to vote daoud if he's scum.



Sure inig has posted more. But what about his content? Not much at all

And my argument is that a townie would almost necessarily vote to survive to help the town if they don't know the other candidates alignment. We can argue this later when we are both out of the game if you don't see it.
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:14 GMT
#643
@djo

Wth? You now find inig scummy again?
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:21 GMT
#648
On October 27 2012 07:57 Djodref wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with any of the lynches...

I'll say Ini right now because of the emotional part. He has been saying

Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote:
On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:


Why we should lynch Inig




First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself.

I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons

  • Total lack of scumhunting
  • Emotionally detached from this game
  • Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument


Total lack of scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +

Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone.

On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up.


On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?

-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours.


As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions.


Emotionally detached from this game
+ Show Spoiler +

When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style.
On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote:
I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other.

It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I
was getting slightly worried.

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote:
EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said.


Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me:

Show nested quote +
You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you?


@ sylver
You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite.

......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed.



Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument
+ Show Spoiler +

This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font.
On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
/snip

As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way.

How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ?
Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument.




Alright here we go.

1. I deny nothing about not scum hunting. I have only had time to read the thread, and have found town looking players: debears, rad, djo(tho im not sure anymore, more on that later). As I said, I will have time in a few days to do proper scum hunting. If you feel that is not a risk worth taking, so be it. Ill give my scum hunting/reading in my next post.
-And, if your going to pull out reasons to lynch me based not on what I have done, but what I havent done, then perhaps you should also look at Oats and Imcasey who havent scumhunted OR contributed (or at least tried) Or posted at all.

2. Ha I am anything BUT emotionally detached from this game. In fact, Ive been getting so emotional I dont think I can or should play mafia games and just go back to watching/reading them. All the logical things I want to say and rules I want to follow fly out the window, and its dumb. /snip

I actually almost rage-quit and threw out on-purpose made-up scumslips and such, so I just got to working on homework and stepped away. Im not sure why you said im emotionally detached.
/snip


and now "I don't mind to be lynched"

it doesn't add up...


Rad this is what I'm talking about
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:31 GMT
#658
On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch.

My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig.

On Inig:

Honestly, I have no idea why people suddenly started piling on top of him. I found him -slightly- suspicious after his emotional outburst and semi-lurking. However, since then he has been asking questions (to myself included) and improving his post count. The cases against him are weak, imo. I've read through them I don't see much of a reason to lynch him. His vote on Imcasey I don't view as scum-intentioned; it was an attempt to draw out the lurker. I don't think scum would be that bold, because a vote like that would (and surely did) draw attention. That is not at all blending in.

His recent vote on Dandel, however, doesn't make sense from any role viewpoint I think, so I don't know what to think about that. I'll be reading more into his posts about Dandel later.

On Da0ud:


I skimmed through the cases concerning him, and by my own standards think he is more scummy-looking than Inig.

In particular, this post about the modkill.

Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 23:07 da0ud wrote:
One thing worries me and seems to have caught no ones attention.
Clarity has been modkilled!! We are already one less town!! And he was posting actual content.


We all saw the modkill. This isn't contributing anything. Why talk about it? A townie died, there's nothing we can do about it, especially since he basically suicided. This is a useless topic.

Then, there is the entire percentage-based town read on Djo. I believe Kush mentioned this. 90% town on the first day? I most surely don't see it that way, and a 90% town read based on little concrete evidence? I don't get it.

In addition, he's a semi-lurker / blending in.

There is also an entire meta-arguement against him as well. I cannot address this as I know nothing of his previous game meta.

This being said, I find Da0ud to be much more scummier than Inig.

##Vote: Da0ud

I apologize for not being here sooner and for this post being somewhat rushed; I had a personal matter to attend to that required my immediate assistance.


Really? The cases against inig are bad? When have you even addressed the inig cases?

And how are the cases weak when you're accusing dauod of the same?
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:38 GMT
#664
@kush

On inig
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16694076
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:46 GMT
#668
Bad word choice on my part. Bad = weak in my post.

And the same points on inig and dauod.
1) semi lurker
2) town reads/ percent town reads
3) generally blending in

Give me
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:56 GMT
#676
Kush

He also called djo town while also calling him sk.
Voting imcasy for no reason at the end of a case on dandel.

How much does there have to be for you to see it? You even called your case not that strong
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 26 2012 23:59 GMT
#679
Cheese

Reread that statement inig made. Notice how he says djo is more likelh sk? Where does that clme from?
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 27 2012 00:43 GMT
#696
Very impressive guys

We lynch the fucking jailkeeper, and all I see is "he should of claimed" and "hrm".

What the hell? This isn't suspicious as hell. Inig was at the top of the vote column and then suddenly this dauod lynch gains momentum for reasons that differed slightly from Inig's case? Not only that, he wasn't there to defend himself and NO ONE ELSE WAS DEFENDING HIM FFS. How is that not a sign of town???? WHY THE FUCK WOULD MAFIA BUS SOMEONE LIKE HIM WHEN INIG WAS THE LEADING VOTE GETTER. Is it not telling how suddenly momentum on Dauod came about? Inig comes in and says some stuff and everyone goes "oh he's noob town obviously". Just awesome.

double FOS Inig

I'm going to fucking cool off so I don't shoot myself. I'll look over the thead and figure this out

FOS anyone who voted for Inig
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 27 2012 13:50 GMT
#723
@Kush

If you want a meta read on me, do it yourself.........
You were in both of my last two games, unlike anyone else here.

Vote analysis coming up soon
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 27 2012 14:15 GMT
#727
Vote chart in the spoiler. Notice how no one unvotes dau0d the entire time? Kush even said his case wasn't that great. If the guy who made the case said it isn't that great, Then why are so many certain of Dau0d's scumminess over Inig?

+ Show Spoiler +
Djo
2. CC
6. Alsn ----UV 10

Inig
1. Djo---- UV 9
4. Dandel
7. Dau0d
12. Me
13. Rad ----UV 17

Dau0d
8. Kush
11. Alsn
16. Sylverfyre
19. Cheesecake
20. Rad
22. Inig
23. Djo

Roco69
5. Sylverfyre

imcasey
3, Inig

Dandel
15. Inig ----UV 21


The above chart has numbers to indicate the order of vote/uv actions
The most important votes, in my opinion, are numbers 8, 9, 15, 16, and 19

8 - kush comes in as replacement. Makes only one read despite being a replacement and sticks with it (I feel that replacements as town would post thoughts on more than 1 player. They have a lot more leniency since they have an outside perspective and they have to catch up)

9 - Djo unvotes Inig, who was leading the vote by 3-1 until the unvote. This was the start of the swing to Dau0d. Also, Djo flip flopped from Inig = scummy, then town, then suspicious

15 - Inig's vote on Dandel. It was his second vote parked on someone uselessly. It made no sense from a town perspective

16 - Sylver votes Dau0d. until this vote, Inig was leading voting 4-2. This vote put the swing in reach

19 - CheeseCake votes Dau0d. This vote made the lynch count 4-3, making Dau0d the leading vote getter

Right now, these are the most suspicious votes I will pursue.
debears
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2516 Posts
October 27 2012 14:16 GMT
#728
@Kush

Seeing as you came in as a replacement. Did you have any other reads besides Dau0d?
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