EPTImagine there are the actions done on you at night:
-Medic saves you
-Scum use a KP on you
If you redirect the medic save onto someone else...does the scum KP kill you?
Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition - Page 16
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Imagine there are the actions done on you at night: -Medic saves you -Scum use a KP on you If you redirect the medic save onto someone else...does the scum KP kill you? | ||
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gonzaw
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If what austin tells me is true, then my report could have been anything in the world and we couldn't confirm it (since austin doesn't know who he visits). I thought Nisani was framed....since that's a very specific way my report failed. It showed Nisani visiting a dead guy, that's an incriminatory report, hence it being result of a framer. ghost's report wasn't incriminatory at all (you didn't claim you were shot for instance), so why would it be the same ability? I.e if Nisani's report was deliberately changed so it would incriminate him, then my 2nd check wasn't. Either only the 1st report was "framed" or what was used on me was a "report randomizer" and on N1 it coincidentally showed Nisani visiting Mementos | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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If all my reports are incriminating it doesn't really make sense since ghost/austin visiting Hiro isn't incriminating at all (Hiro never claimed he was hit or RBed or anything). That's not being "insane" (I also never saw an "insane tracker" before). Either the 1st one was the incriminating one (in which case it's most likely because someone, possibly scum, used an ability on me), or they are all random (not incriminatory or anything). Either Nisani was framed I think (a tracker framer...which is odd), or maybe Nisani did visit Mementos but didn't save him and didn't notice for some reason? | ||
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gonzaw
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If both tell the truth, then a random ability used on Hiro on N2 was used on Keiarthi. If my report on ghost is correct, that means whatever ghost did he did it on Keirathi. There are also some things we can discard. For instance Xfire was never visited so his role has nothing to do with anything in the game (this is because he never used his KP which he would have, and this is because the player list wasn't shifted 1 place down on N1...right? >_>) I still don't know what happened with Mementos' jail. Unless someone claims I have to either assume it was used on scum or he didn't do it at all. Nah, there are too many variables to try an make any sensible time-line of night actions, specially since almost all night actions claimed are defensive and not pro-active, other than Draz' shot on S&B (which was already addressed). Also lol, since S&B targeted Keirathi on N2, and Matt bussed me on N2...then I was protected by medics on both N1 and N2 lololol. Also we can safely assume that the swap role is either from ghost or from scum. No portal powers were claimed though, so does that prove that either austin is lying or ghost or scum have the power to make portals? Again the portals may have to do with the player swap....but then again what about Chell/Matt? Wouldn't he be the one able to use portals? If my report is correct though...it makes more sense the player swap is a scum role though, since ghost swapping himself with Hiro by visiting Keirathi doesn't make sense (unless Matt is lying about bussing Hiro+Kei). So, let's try and make some conclusions Assuming that to perform an ability that targets a player it is necessary to visit that player, and assuming Matt bussed Kei+Hiro in N2, and assuming my report on ghost from N2 is correct, then ghost can't possibly be responsible for the player swapping of himself and Hiro on N2. Nobody else claimed doing so, and only scum would have the need to hide that info. Therefore the player swapping was made by one scum and his power, and this scum is not Hiro. Considering Xfire's role had to do with roleSwapping but GlaDOS didn't...maybe we could assume this was the work of BS and not RS? In which case BS swapped players and ghost is not BS. If we assume this, and specially the part where my N2 report on ghost is correct, it means ghost is town (again, if the player swapping was made by BS). It's still possible ghost is BS and the player swap was made by the remaining RS. Hmm, just in case ##Unvote What can we conclude from this? One of these: 1)The player swapping was made by one scum and his power, and this scum is not ghost. 2)It is possible to target a player without visiting him 3)Mattchew is lying about bussing Keirathi and Hiro on N2 4)My N2 report on ghost is incorrect 1)Basically means that list swap is a scum power and this scum is not ghost. And again ghost is not RS so ghost would most likely be town 2)I don't think this is possible, even for scum powers. If a scum power is "swap the positions of player Y and player X" then I believe he visits both players. Just as if I track Matt he'd visit the guys he busses, or how if someone tracked me they'd see me tracking my tracked guy. Hmm, might as well ask Greymist and see if this is true 3)Then Matt is scum, easy 4)It's possible, but then fuck my role is useless  If this is the case I still don't know if it's something that only has to do with my role, or if my targets are always framed (or from your POV I could be scum lying).Hmm, other than maybe Keirathi not being in the rat den because of austin's claim...I don't really know what other thing to conclude. We can do this I guess: Assuming my N1 and N2 checks are correct, neither ghost nor austin can be RS Can't really conclude anything with Kei's and S&B's saves since they didn't really save anybody. Kei, S&B, can you guys make a list of all the guys you targeted in this game? I'm missing some of them and can't find them. | ||
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gonzaw
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Anyways why do you guys even bother breadcrumbing your role? Just don't breadcrumb anything and claim you are an anti-town traitor. You'll be instantly considered confirmed town.... ...although seriously I didn't think everybody would believe my claim >_> I guess I didn't really got my hopes up with you guys :/ Anyways...yeah I think we should have paid more attention to the player list Dammit austin! That was YOUR job!!! > : ( (lol jk  )Meh...this game is so weird, it feels like if there were no remaining scum or something. I guess we can NL today and maybe use our abilities (mine and Matt's for instance) to determine the veracity of other people's claims? | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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What if Jingle is an Aperture Science Framer?. He can choose what check/report can come from a player he chooses. On N1 he chose Nisani and made it so he visited Mementos (if there is a framer role that wanted to frame Nisani it has to be from RS since BS didn't know Mementos would get killed due to their lack of factional KP and I think almost any KP whasoever), which explains my report. Now, he claims he's "bulletproof guy that always visits austin at night to hide". He claimed this after I claimed tracker. If he's RS, he knows that I can track him at night now (and be un-RBeable and maybe bulletproof if Kei/S&B target me), so he could get instantly caught. To survive my reports he'd need to not shoot at night....which would be weird and still scummy if I say I'm going to track him. Therefore he claimed a role that only visits austin at night and if I see him visit austin at night it "confirms" him as town if we believe what he told us... ...but what if he frames himself every night from now on and makes any track report from him say he visited austin? Even if he chooses to shoot someone unrelated at night (maybe Keirathi for instance), my track report will say he visited austin, therefore "confirming" his role, and of course justifying him living so long at night (i.e scum not killing him) since "scum wouldn't shoot a bulletproof hider". Didn't really have a scum read on Jingle but fuck scumreads right now they didn't do me any good until now. Let's speculate! What do you guys think of this possibility? Granted austin could do something similar with a framer ability (i.e frame himself so he visits an "unrelated" target, someone different than who he shoots). Meh, seems improbable that a framer can frame himself, but really...what other explanation could there be for my N1 report and the lack of "scummy" claims so far? (i.e claims that can be refuted, etc) | ||
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gonzaw
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I even colored my post with **** blue asterisks and shit, it was impossible to miss even if he skimmed the thread. | ||
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gonzaw
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...and waiting for Mattchew's case on Hiro ...and waiting for ghost ...fuck why is everybody so slow in this game? | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 11:03 Keirathi wrote: I haven't breadcrumbed my role at all Also, I'm not entirely convinced by your claim. Some key things stick out to me: how much you talked about how hard it would be for you to fake claim as scum, and the way you kept putting your claim of (okay i'm going to claim, wait no i'm not, well maybe i'll claim later, but i have a plan now, etcetc). I will say that your claim, if fake, took an extreme amount of effort, which makes it pretty unlikely, but I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Especially if you+matt are somehow a scum-team and coordinated the Chell/Traitor thing. If I did that as scum then I'd be very desperately for a win and I'd be spending 23 hours a day in this game lurking and planning and shit. ...in that case I'd beg you to make me win this game at least out of pity That includes believing my claim....so please believe my claim even out of pity if I'm scum!! On October 10 2012 11:02 austinmcc wrote: I don't like the idea of no lynching. At the very least, I'd like to lynch ghost. He went from relatively inactive early to just...not doing ANYTHING after crossfire flipped. I like the connections in his and Crossfire's filter to put him at black scum. Being black scum fits his activity post-crossfire flip - he needs to wait things out, maybe has no KP, and knows that he's not the preferred target of town and maybe not the preferred target of red scum (since he's not really threatening them). Heck, if he's red scum the best play is the same thing. He kind of looks like black scum, his participation fits the black scum mold, so he just sits back and pretends to be black scum. Only black scum would know that he's not with them, and so they'd be the only ones to call him out (Except fo me). At the very least, if we're not going to get ANYTHING out of alive ghost, I'd like to see his actual role when he flips and see if it sheds any light on the claims that came out today and whether anyone is lying. It's very ironic but here it goes: What if there are more scum or something and we end up losing with another misslynch? You know, you guys where the ones buggering me so much about there being a bajillion scum remaining...which by your estimations this would be LYLO/MYLO of sorts, which means we can't really afford a misslynch. Joking aside (there are no 3-3 scum teams), maybe you are right. He has to come and vote or be modkilled. If he as much as votes without claiming and explaining his N2 action and shit he gets insta-lynched (by policy at least), so this issue will be solved today, one way or the other. However, if my previous conclusion is correct ghost is not the position swapper who is scum and is not RS. If he's BS then the RS would be the position swapper...which means the RS can't be Framer which means my N1 report goes unexplained. Contradiction perhaps...? So that makes him being BS unlikely. Maybe I just utterly failed with my conclusion though. Also: What do you guys think about that Jingle speculation? | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 11:13 Keirathi wrote: That you're completely reaching and it has 0 basis in fact. Just randomly throwing out a theory with 0 evidence to back it up. What I mean is, nothing in your explanation explained why the framer would be JingleHell. His name was just tacked on there. Someone fake-claimed, that's a fact (if we assume there's at least 1 RS and 1 BS left...even if ghost is one of them). Who is it? Well, we can check claims. If there's a claim that seems bullshit then it's probably a fake-claim and the guy is scum (again, 0 scumhunting here...but at least my head doesn't hurt by thinking about it). Now, if you can say "JH's claim is BS" without any other "evidence", then I guess I might as well provide circumstantial evidence of that by explaining my N1 report and his motivation for claiming what he did as scum. Again....try to find the fake-claim between all these claims and use it to explain everything that happened this game. It's hard isn't it? My "theory with 0 evidence" is (as far as I believe) the best one (well actually the one I bothered thinking about and sprouted into my head) that can explain most of the shit that happened this game and why the scum that fake-claimed fake-claimed what he did. It's not "evidence" at all...but again, what's the alternative? Feel free to post evidence against it (like Jingle posting something and it contradicting what I said) and discuss it. Also it kind of felt like a "Omg it all makes sense!" moment for me, even though I had no evidence. Just like in those Phoenix Wright games. | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 11:22 HiroPro wrote: I already explained how I decided my actions, gonzaw - go back and read. why do you think jingle is lying about his claim austin? all I see about that from you is you saying why his role isn't imbalanced if not town - you don't really explain why you think he's lying. Yeah my bad I forgot about it. | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 11:30 Keirathi wrote: So gonzaw, answer me this: If there is this framer than can frame himself to show up as visiting a specific target (ie, JH visiting austin), what stops Hiro or me, or you from being that framer? Lets play devil's advocate and say Hiro says that he is going to use his role on ghost. So you track Hiro, and he does in fact visit ghost. Now, why can't he be the framer? Why does it have to be Jingle? That's the point I'm trying to make. Well, you because, again if you were RS you wouldn't really have claimed P-Body with S&B (unless you are RS buddies). Also you are pretty town by now. Also all the shit I explained in that other post in D2 or D3 I think (about flavour and balance and shit). For instance it's very difficult for me to believe a real P-Body claim would be scum, instead of any of these "Hero of the night! Super Science extra bacon and cheese!" claims people are having being fake (with one of them being fake and the guy actually being "G-Man" or "Aperture Science NeuroToxin Manufacturer" or some shit). Hiro because he as scum had to fake-claim those "I redirect my target" reports which can fuck him up in the ass very hard if he fucks it (if his claim is not consistent with something that happened, for instance someone doing something on Hiro and not being redirected to someone else). ...meh it's possible, I don't remember when Hiro claimed (I think he claimed before Jingle? And ghost of course). He could have easily tried to get an "easier" fake-claim to claim as scum. I'm mostly looking at austin's and JH's claims which are too "safe", don't add anything new to this discussion (which would be pretty convenient as scum to do) and seem defensive of them. I.e it can't be verified and it "justifies" them doing any weird shit (like austin visiting someone random at night). Like I said austin could have used it as well....but meh austin at least is here talking (although I always fall for that) and he didn't claim "bulletproof" at least. If JH is hiding something like austin said it'd be good to claim. @austin: I don't really take JH's Matt vote into account. If he's scum he's doing crazy shit to create chaos and maybe stop people paying attention to iam and then pass it off as "good ol' crazy town JingleHell". If he's town he's just nuts like always. What made me wary about him being scum was basically the difference in play between here and his game as scum. Not that much difference in play (like Hiro's play here and in RockBand mafia for instance), but it was kind of subtle (I already explained it before). Right now I'd be willing to discard any read I have (except maybe the town read on keirathi) since (spoilers) I'm almost always wrong with reads and they fuck up my head and I start babbling and making weird theories and playing like shit and then I die/get lynched and everything goes to hell. Right now I want everybody to chime in and just find the motherfucking scum any way possible. Either by comparing claims, or logically determine contradictions in claims and shit, or just scumhunting and shit. I dunno, I'll reread everybody once we figured out this "claiming" shit and there's something serious going on. You guys scumhunt all you want though, I'll keep going with my theories until ghost claims and Jingle comes and Matt posts something and shit Hey Hiro, which of these claims do you think is fake? Which one do you believe? How do they relate with the previous reads you had on everybody? | ||
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gonzaw
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Who? Until ghost cc's Matt he's like confirmed non-RS (and maybe confirmed town, but just taking flavour into account and maybe stuff from my role PM) Can we still assume Kei and S&B are town? I'll still bet Kei is town so the questions boils to S&B basically. If so, it leaves austin/Kei/Hiro/ghost for remaining scum, and at least 1 scum in austin/Jingle/Hiro if we have at least 1 RS and 1 BS remaining. So, based on this, who do you guys think is the guy fake-claiming from austin/Jingle/Hiro? Let's have some fun discussing until ghost comes (and maybe cc's Chell or something, could happen). If you think someone else (Matt/S&B) is fake-claiming or claiming real role as scum shoot. | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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I'll wait to see what he does when he comes back. If he's scum I'm sure he'll post something funny once he sees my claim. | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 12:06 austinmcc wrote: Being "good ol' crazy town ANYONE" isn't necessarily scummy. ?? My point is that if he's scum he could act batshit crazy to stir off suspicion of iamperfection but have everybody ignore it since he'd act like that as town However I've read some of his previous games (PTP3 for instance) so I can see him doing that as town as well. Which is why I didn't really pay attention to it. It did give me more townie vibes than scummy vibes since it didn't really seem to push a scum agenda and if it did it was so obvious it wouldn't have worked at all. I just...if he wants to create chaos why doesn't he keep it up? I'd think creating chaos AND getting called 100% town for it by someone would egg you on to do more. One reason would be preservation like Keirathi said before. If he's the sole remaining RS, who would benefit from the chaos he created if it gets him lynched? Black Mesa would benefit, that's it. If he's the sole remaining RS it would make sense to just keep up whatever he's doing with me to "hide" in plain sight without having to do anything important all game (just accuse me, start a shitstorm with me every now and then, vote me and be desinterested of the rest of the game). Well...if I put it like that it seems like he's super scummy...again the thing is that some of his posts and reasonings seemed genuine, and again he seemed to go against me because he genuinely thought I was scum rather than go against me to justify his vote/activity (at first, on N1-D2). Instead, he's fallen back into what I recognize as town JH's pattern, based only on PTP3. His constant pushing on you this game feels like his constant pushing on Grush in that game. Pop in start of the day, vote, dip out. There are some differences in other areas, but I'm thinking those are improvements to some flaws rather than him playing differently because he's a different alignment this game. Could be...or maybe not. I have no idea. Oh, one more thing: If JingleHell is scum this game I'm going to policy lynch or tunnel the hell out of everybody that tunnels me for more than 2 cycles without properly explaining themselves. If he's scum no more "damn he could just be bad town" from me. Scum doing that to me pisses me off (specially when it works) since I feel they are taking advantage of me. Townies doing that to me pisses me off as well because I can't realize if they are scum taking advantage of me (and also because of the whole in-game stuff). | ||
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gonzaw
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On October 10 2012 12:26 HiroPro wrote: I think your claim is real. It kinda explains why you've been playing strange - you were hedging your bets in case of a red scum win. And I frankly don't see a mafia player making the claim that you did - revealing that you have a wincon in which you can win with scum pretty much makes you a lynch candidate down the road and it's not something a mafia player would do. Since your role mentions Chell (and I don't see Chell being a mafia role), Mattchew is probably also town. Unless ghost ccs lol. austin's claim needs someone who can make portals, so if no one claims that he's scum. The fact that he made a claim like that though probably means he's town - scum don't make claims like that where they depend on someone else to support them (unless they have a teammate to do it, but no one's stepped up like that, so no teammate and probably not 3 people on a scum team). Not sure about JingleHell. His claim could be real, I have no real way of telling. But it doesn't reveal any real information and it whether it's real or not doesn't really say anything about whether he is town or scum. There really aren't very many people left who can really be scum tbh. Just austin, ghost, and Jingle. Well I guess you could be too and Chell could just be someone who you need to kill to gain powers or something, but I don't think it's likely at this point. Accuse someone. Anyone, come on. Go go go go go Take a stance, even if it's a stupid one without evidence like my "Jingle is a RS Framer" one. Remember there are at least 2 scum left, even if you take a dice to determine who's scum you can't be that wrong and may actually get it right. Or maybe you are BS? Meh. Jingle and Hiro could make sense I think. Again substitute ghost with any of them if it's possible, and that could also make sense | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Hiro could be BS and be a "re-director" (with more anti-town abilities I suppose as well). Mattchew could be BS and be a bus driver; Jingle could be BS and be that "super-hider" like some people argued about, and ghost could be BS and...whatever the hell he will claim (austin too. bla bla bla). The thing is that I think the BS could have claimed his own abilities or part of them and just fake-claim his role name; while I think the RS may need to completely fake his claim (from abilities and all). Mostly because I don't see a RS with any of the abilities that were already claimed (maybe again except Matt's bus driver one). | ||
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