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On October 16 2012 19:23 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 17:38 Kreb wrote:
And god damn it Shiao, why you have to be so useless? I was ready to move you off my possible scum list and then you go afk at the perfect time. As of now theres still possibilities of DP, Shiao or risk as the 3rd scum. I see many of you group me with a bunch of people as potential scum. Do you have any evidence or a case on why this is so? I think it would be better for town that, instead of lumping several people in as scummy, you actually decide on your top scum read and build a solid case on them. Kreb are you now back flipping on VE? do you believe VE is scum? Do you have a breadcrumb to support your Vet claim?
Those names arent relevant atm. We got two other lynches to do first. You can regard it as me saying "Iamp, ZB, Coag is town. VE Sloosh is scum". Rest is just, yea, you three. Which Im still unsure of. And unless theres 6 mafia or something else stupid, only one of you three are mafia.
And Im not back flipping VE. Hes scum. The discussion should be about whether we wanna remove the scum Investigator or whatever Sloosh is. And to me the answer is the investigator. But if someone can come up with a reasonable argument for Sloosh Im not 100% against it. Im 100% against all others.
And Im not sure how reasonable it is to crumb Vet, its not like I've been doing anything during the nights. But to answer your question: no I havent.
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I am not sold on ZB being town. Even though my top two Town reads both believe he is. Is there any particular reason you view him as town? I must admit that his play this game being so close to his meta has swayed me somewhat. But this could be faked as scum.
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Well, he's been very contributory and open with his reads imo. To a way higher extent than the other three I mentioned. Is there a possibility? Sure, a really slim fucking one. And in that case hats off to ZB for amazing play. But there is absolutely nothing pointing that way atm. Feel free to make cases to convince me though.
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On October 16 2012 20:05 Kreb wrote:
Well, he's been very contributory and open with his reads imo. To a way higher extent than the other three I mentioned. Is there a possibility? Sure, a really slim fucking one. And in that case hats off to ZB for amazing play. But there is absolutely nothing pointing that way atm. Feel free to make cases to convince me though.
I tunnelled ZB for 3 pages and He I. It would be anti town to tunnell him more than that.
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I dont see the anti-town play in continuing if you still believe him to be scum. Right now though, he should in no way be your main concern if you're town. Either you think Im full of shit and should immediately place your vote on me. Or you dont, and then you should look towards VE. I have my ideas (and they're changing semi-frequently) on who the last scum is. But im not gonna get into a DP vs Shiao vs risk discussion since thats absolutely irrelevant right now. If you believe the scum team to be Me+ZB+X, get on me. If you believe it to be VE+ZB+X, get on VE. ZB is not your highest priority atm.
Feel free to share your overall reads though. I'd be interested in that. I put 3 as town, 2 as scum, 3 as unsure. Who would you put as town/scum/unsure?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@Kreb: I had you as a pretty sure townread before, but that 1on1 stunt looked incredibly stupid and scummy. Also what makes you so sure on your scumread of VE? (Besides the fact that he is a claimed cop who is still alive this long) Also a vetclaim is like one of the easiest things to fake since you lack nightactions which can backup your claim.
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On October 16 2012 20:17 ShiaoPi wrote:
@Kreb: I had you as a pretty sure townread before, but that 1on1 stunt looked incredibly stupid and scummy. Also what makes you so sure on your scumread of VE? (Besides the fact that he is a claimed cop who is still alive this long) Also a vetclaim is like one of the easiest things to fake since you lack nightactions which can backup your claim.
Geez, are you gonna pull a Sloosh and imply I havent been clear about VE but rather throw indirect accusations? How on earth am I supposed to be clear then? Have you even read my filter? We got people accusing me of tunneling over here and you're asking for my reads?
But I will recap, just for you!
- The big 7 (I think) point list a made long ago (which included a strong point regarding how Marv acted in response to my Node-comments. Seriously, go fucking read it).
- The Kush mis-read
- The horrendous scumhunting
- BCs case on him (the MMT check), convincing me further
- ZBs case on him, convinving me further
- Kei's case on him, pointing out his "want to be lynched"-play, convincing me further
- Him jumping on every opportunity to increase confusion/explain his wierd/bad play (he admits its wierd/bad, and he tries to explain it through various silly happenings). This includes but is not limited to: The existance of a role+alignment framer, the existance of a sac-KP mechanic, the role blocks.
Theres probably more. Now YOU go and show that you read the thread and read through all these cases. It should take an hour or two. Stop being afk and start doing work. And then maybe you'll realize why Im suspicious.
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On October 16 2012 20:15 Kreb wrote:
I dont see the anti-town play in continuing if you still believe him to be scum. Right now though, he should in no way be your main concern if you're town. Either you think Im full of shit and should immediately place your vote on me. Or you dont, and then you should look towards VE. I have my ideas (and they're changing semi-frequently) on who the last scum is. But im not gonna get into a DP vs Shiao vs risk discussion since thats absolutely irrelevant right now. If you believe the scum team to be Me+ZB+X, get on me. If you believe it to be VE+ZB+X, get on VE. ZB is not your highest priority atm.
Feel free to share your overall reads though. I'd be interested in that. I put 3 as town, 2 as scum, 3 as unsure. Who would you put as town/scum/unsure?
Yourself and Iamperfection are my top town reads. VE is a fucking nightmare. Coag is town based on a very questionable check claim by viscera eyes. So he is unknown. Sloosh and risk have been AFK as has Shiao but Shiao's willingness to jump on my wagon is SCummy as shit. I am reading XXVIII and ZB's meta in that game. and it seems to largely match up with his current play. So I am not as certain as I was that he is in fact scum but I still feel he may be.
Bleh. This game is hard. It is convoluted as fuck and the setup speculation has made a a mess with my reads.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
pull a sloosh? That term sounds fun, but no not my intention.
I was asking about the 1on1-situation directly, I know you were digging for responses, you got some and put iamp+coag on the town-side based on it. Did it change in any way your stance on VE? Does not look like it judging from your vote still being on him.
If you put iamp and coag as townreads, what do you make of the fact that they are voting for you, together with your highest supposed scumread ve?
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And heres a little something for those of you who are into meta reads. This is what Sloosh was capable of last game. As 3rd party.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 15 2012 03:00 slOosh wrote:Screw this I'm making the case because people apparently can't read into singular posts and need to be spoonfed. StrongandBigShow nested quote +On September 05 2012 00:29 strongandbig wrote:On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote:
I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind?? lol. If matt was going to defend himself he would have said something by now other than "hey guys maybe I'm a VT trying to draw scum shots lol". I've played a bunch of games with Mattchew recently and based on those, I think this is him as scum. For example, if I were going to fakeclaim miller as scum, I would do it very differently. However, you have to remember a couple things about Mattchew: - he's lazy as fuck as scum, except in themed games - he's pretty aggressive as town a lot of the time. The example I was thinking about was from him in TL Mafia LV, where he and I were both town. He lied about taking a shot, and then when I suggested that it made no sense for him to take a scum shot and he might have been vigged, he attacked me like a moron for the rest of the game. Unlike that, in this game his lie doesn't have any follow-up. If it was a planned-out pro-town lie, which I imagine is what he'll pretend it is, he would have been all over the first few people to attack him. Instead he just disappeared. It seems much more likely that what he did was the same thing I did in deathnote - claimed miller without first asking the hosts whether millers are self-aware, and got caught for it. The difference is, I did it in a game with a closed setup. ##vote: mattchew This is his Mattchew vote. Review the context and look at how everyone else votes. They are all one liners saying "he is a liar ##Vote Mattchew". StrongandBig takes his time to really get into the nitty gritty and dwells on the point when it is totally unnecessary. There is no serious opposition to the votes - making your stance on Mattchew extremely clear is not something town would see as something necessary. This is scum bussing a teammate mentality - get as much credit by being as clear as possible. There are many posts in his filter that are mere speculation and wishy washy - nothing that shows scumhunting: Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 00:41 strongandbig wrote:On September 04 2012 12:05 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 04 2012 12:04 Mattchew wrote:On September 04 2012 12:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 04 2012 11:58 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 11:57 Mattchew wrote:
he's trying to say he pm'd palmar now he's making up fake scum motivations for your claim not even really reading your post just cherrypicking and trying to push his fake case. hes scum. Yes, the liar is town and the not liar is scum. Drh Logic ftw. Now people know why I play less, because logic doesn't exist here. You are right, I did misread his post for that I apologize, i skimmed saw what I thought was bs and posted on it. He still clearly lied. Give me a town motivation for lying at this stage in the game drH. Please tell me what a townie gets from lying about his role this early into the game. devils advocate answers: vanilla trying to look blue and draw a shot blue trying to look vanilla No mafia will shoot a nosy neighbor and any vig who does is stupid, blue trying to look vanilla would claim vanilla. You don't claim miller. Miller is a mafia claim to explain why they do shit at night. Pre claiming is to add "legitimacy to it" On September 04 2012 11:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 04 2012 11:46 BlackMamba24 wrote:
1. Burden of proof is on you to prove mattchew is lying
2. whether or not it makes sense as a fakeclaim does not indicate his alignment whatsoever. your case is that you know 100% he is lying, ok and on what grounds can you support that? you haven't shown any so far
bad bc You can prove I am lying with 1 action. As you have yet to do so (hey its even in the OP to find out how to prove me wrong). You are right, his fakeclaim doesn't prove he is mafia on its own. However, HIM ASKING FOR CLAIMS DOES. Why would a townie fakeclaim and attempt to get all blues to claim ? No townie day 1 should ever be this fuckign stupid. Even if he gets caught as mafia (as I have caught him) had anyone or if anyone proceeds to claim and a bunch of retard blues out themselves mafia is instantly ahead. Use your head DrH. You know how I play and know even as Mafia I don't spout complete bullshit. If I am calling someone out like this I know I am in the right. So in the offchance I am mafia I know hes lying, and as I am town I know hes lying. There is only one way for me to know he is lying given that this is a setup mechanic. Figure out how I know and you then you will know the same thing I do and realize hes fucking lying. One last thing - I wanted to mention some things I saw in BC's filter. Reading through the thread I was pretty confounded by how assertive he was towards DrH, but it makes sense if he was told by Palmar that he couldn't let the thread know Palmar had modconfirmed that nosy neighbors aren't self-aware. The other thing is about the repeated not-reading-mattchew's-actual-post and saying he was trying to get blues to claim. I don't really know what to make of this, other than it kind of shows BC is just skimming. We can pretty safely assume that BC isn't the same alignment as Mattchew, so that means he's probably town unless Matt flips assassin; but this still seems kind of odd to me, especially since the thread wasn't extremely long at the point BC called out Mattchew. I haven't played many games with BC so I don't know whether this is a scum tell for him, or if he's just always lazy as town, but hopefully someone who has played more games with him can drop some meta for us. Look how many times he states how uncertain he is on the issue. Then why bring it up? Why bother telling everyone in the thread "BC looks kinda weird but I'm not sure"? Read Mafia XXX - this is a scum trait, emphasizing uncertainty. Why as town would you want people to know how unsure you are? You can see he isn't trying to get a better read of BC since he doesn't post anything else on him. Compare this to a post from his filter in Mad Men MafiaShow nested quote +On August 05 2012 00:37 strongandbig wrote:
that's a drastic oversimplification, biosc.
Here's why I think wbg is scum:
When he's town he explains things, doesn't gambit, and doesn't draw attention to himself for no reason with stunts. In this game, he hasn't explained himself in a satisfactory way - and the explanations he has given don't hold up whatsoever.
His reasons for outing the masons don't hold up. If he wanted mafia to have to wifom before shooting him, there was really no reason he needed to claim mason; he could have just played super townie, which he is definitely capable of doing, and then called for medic protection. His claim to be "pressuring" ve by outing him doesn't match his thread behavior, where he didn't pressure ve at all or even make him post more than once or twice. And his claim to be "deterring potential scum masons from masoning people in the future" doesn't hold up either, unless everyone agrees to out more masons in the future; in order for this tactic to work he would have to persuade everyone that outing masons is good in general and he hasn't even tried to do that.
Additionally, I would count this "instantly outing masons" thing as a gambit of the second order - and bugs has frequently said not to gambit as town. It's not in his town meta.
Next, both with the outing of the masons and with his self-voting, public insults, and flame-war with erandorr, he's drawing attention to himself in a way that isn't consistent with his town play.
Finally, there's the grush thing. Usually when town-wbg tries to lead a lynch, it's with reasons and explanation as well as the insults. This one had jack shit of that until he was pushed on it, and then when he was pushed on it the best he could come up with was more insults plus an example of one game where grush trolled.
Yeah so that's why wbg is scum. Vote for him. Look how sure and assertive he is. He brings out clear arguments and doesn't once say "oh I'm not sure". This is also a D1 lynch involving strong personalities.
Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote:
I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been.
I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush.
The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers.
Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked.
So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe
pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider. Another post where he tries to take no responsibility for his votes. Notice how many times he has to let everyone know that he isn't sure. Additionally is mentioning other people's cases to push the idea - this allows people to start mislynches but he takes no responsibility. Scum trait. He doesn't even actually read Z-Boson's filter until called out.
Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 07:26 strongandbig wrote:On September 11 2012 04:07 Rewok wrote:
I've been wrong every time I voted on my own instinct and right the time I followed Toade so my vote is for Forumite.
##vote: Forumite I... don't really like this logic. This implies that your own instinct is pointing at someone other than Forumite - who would that be? That said, some logic I do like is the case on Forumite. It's not just that he's been way less "pro-town" and "invested" than usual this game, although that's the biggest part of the case; but I still think there are some sketchy things in his filter - that first "don't lynch vets" post still rankles considering it came from someone who is pretty vet-ish. ##vote: Forumite Again, we see he hops on a wagon, not offering anything new. If you notice he never mentions Rewok after the flip - why wouldn't you pursue something like that? He finds something off about the post, but just says "I don't like it". So many times in his filter "I don't like this or that" but never "this looks like scum".
Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 01:20 strongandbig wrote:
I'm voting for maverickx.
Out of the cases so far, the one on him (redone recently by mementoss) has by far the most meat to it.
I don't have a town read on gravan like I do on grush and billmurray, so I'd be willing to consolidate on him, but the case on him just feels too "wtf where is he" without enough "also this is why he's scum."
I think compared to those two, mementoss isn't a great lynch for today since he seems to have started giving a fuck. However, that could just be him being scum and realizing that he has to start giving a fuck or die. But I think mav is the best lynch out of those today.
##vote: maverickx Again, hopping on another person's wagon, but also letting everyone know that the person whose wagon he is joining could be scum. He is setting up mislynches. If you think he could be scum then you would question it at the time, you don't need to wait for a townie flip to start pursuing it.
Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 14:06 strongandbig wrote:
We should be killing Mav today.
He hasn't made a real read all game, and now comes out with a town-case on Gravan. We still don't have any scumhunting out of him, and town cases are easy for scum to make. I think he saw the writing on the wall and this is a ploy, and we shouldn't fall for it. It's not a case where the only motive was town; it's also very smart scum play, regardless of Gravan's alignment. A push on Gravan by Mav would just be dismissed, so this is his top option. I've pointed it out before and I'll do it again. First, the bold line is EXTREMELY hypocritical as seen from my case. Second, how is he so sure a push on Gravan be dismissed? He is twisting the situation to make mav look like scum no matter what. And this is the first time that he seems to care about the lynch, so I'm thinking that one of the candidates is a scum buddy (prob Gravan) that he is trying to save with a counter wagon. The best vote for today is StrongandBig. I realize this case is coming late but that is because Mav's posts and stuff that follow were late in the day. I will vote StrongandBig and check back nearer deadline if enough people can see it. I strongly think mav is a bad lynch at this point. Both Gravan and Shady Sands are better lynches than him. ##Unvote: Shady Sands
##Vote: StrongandBig
Compare to this game...
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On October 16 2012 20:36 ShiaoPi wrote:
pull a sloosh? That term sounds fun, but no not my intention.
I was asking about the 1on1-situation directly, I know you were digging for responses, you got some and put iamp+coag on the town-side based on it. Did it change in any way your stance on VE? Does not look like it judging from your vote still being on him.
If you put iamp and coag as townreads, what do you make of the fact that they are voting for you, together with your highest supposed scumread ve?
Well, I didnt get that much on the scum-hunting side, no. But VE being all over Coag when Coag was expressing suspicions of Sloosh was a nice tell. Not exactly something that makes an awesome case itself, but a nice tell nontheless. Apart from that I was already sure of VEs scummyness and nothing changed there.
About their votes and what I make of that? I see it as confirmation that they're both American, as indicated by the Country above their names, and should still be sleeping. :p If they wish to keep their votes there Im sure they'll pop into the thread, tell me Im full of shit and that I should be lynched. Ask me again what I make of it if that happens.
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the more important question everyone should be asking is anyone going to counter claim kreb. BC basically told as lucky citizen was a blue role and he even probably got the role pm from the hosts. So i see no reason not to think kreb is town at this point unless someone has some sort of logic bomb they want to lay on me.
## Unvote
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If someone things kreb isn't town raise their hand and tell me why.
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I dunno if hes town. But I would be willish to lynch sloosh instead if no one counter claims him.
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well there has to be a lucky citizen unless someone thinks luck citizen would be scum aligned for some reason. However with bc's fake claim i think its pretty clear.
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i also would rather not lynch ve. something about the missing kp bugs me.
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With VE claiming the only investigative role in the game it makes it likely his claim is legit.
Not sure about kreb's claim. It's pretty meaningless. I'm leaning towards him fake-claiming.
Still thinking about who I want to lynch the most.
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ok so riisk and ve are scum
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On October 16 2012 15:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Coag are you scum bro?
I mean, jesting is one thing - but if you honestly believe that I'm scum, then why aren't you voting for me? Do you think Kreb and I are scumbuddies? Want to walk me through that line of thinking?
I told you already. I just dont care enough. and on the very slim chance im wrong its not worth pissing everyone off. just letting you know that I wont be suprised in the fucking slightest when u turn out to be scum
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risk ve and sloosh are scum
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EPT
