EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXV - Page 25
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 26 2012 01:11 mkfuba07 wrote:My second candidate at the moment is WeeTee. Though in general I agree with Spag's recent posts, Thrawn raises a good point in that WeeTee has yet to take a side in most matters. Also, he has voted for kush because of his defensive, inexperienced play, when WeeTee himself is using it in his own defense as a bad townie. I would prefer to vote for him only as a last resort, but am willing to as he was my second scumread earlier in the game. As an aside, I realize I didn't mention this earlier. I found him more suspicious than kush for reasons that I couldn't put into words, so I didn't comment on him until I found out what was bugging me. Thrawn's post showed me what I was missing. In that post he says his 2nd scumread is WeeTee. He says that WeeTee was also his 2nd scumread earlier in the game for reasons he couldn't put into words. On August 26 2012 05:48 mkfuba07 wrote: ##Unvote ##vote WeeTee I do feel reluctant for reasons that I can't quite explain, but I truly want to avoid a no-lynch, and WeeTee is my second scumread anyway. Another instance of him mentioning WeeTee and reasons that are unexplainable. Look at his filter and you'll see he doesn't give a scumread until halfway into D1 and only does so because someone asked him for a read. Up till then he wasn't suspicious of anyone. Here's the timestamp of the post if you wanna look it up: On August 25 2012 02:31 mkfuba07 wrote: At the moment it's actually Lvdr. Before the vote his top scumread was lvdr. Then out of nowhere there is this post: On August 26 2012 05:29 mkfuba07 wrote: ##Unvote Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.##vote Dandel lon His first scumread of the game was lvdr, and then he votes for lvdr, and then all the sudden his 2 scumreads are dandel lon or WeeTee? What happened to lvdr being his strongest scumread? He makes suspicious posts about WeeTee and has a lack of consistency in what was his "top" scumread. He didn't accuse anyone of being scum until he was asked to and said his top scumread was lvdr. Then he votes for lvdr and says WeeTee is his back up plan and that he's been suspicious of WeeTee the whole game for reasons he didn't know at the time. Then lvdr suggests voting for dandel and all the sudden mkfuba abandons his top scumread (lvdr) and doesn't mention him again for the rest of the game. Mkfuba votes for dandel. Then close to deadline he switches his vote for WeeTee and once again talks about his unexplainable feelings. ##FOS mkfuba07 | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 27 2012 10:50 Spaghetticus wrote: Kush is now confirmed town unless someone comes forward and claims they were also nightblocked. If this does not happen, then I am going to start FoSing anyone who questions him for deliberate attempts to spread confusion. How does that even make sense? You do realize that under F11, there could be no jailkeeper at all and only a roleblocker, right? And that jk/rb doesn't even have to rb or jk someone each night. At best, this is a null tell. At best. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 27 2012 10:45 Spaghetticus wrote: ##FoS thrawn2112 I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality. Why FOS me now? Was it that my latest post was irrational and that was the tipping point? What's your disagreement with my read on mkfuba? If you don't have any then I don't see why you would FOS me all of the sudden. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 27 2012 10:50 Spaghetticus wrote: Kush is now confirmed town unless someone comes forward and claims they were also nightblocked. If this does not happen, then I am going to start FoSing anyone who questions him for deliberate attempts to spread confusion. I actually agree with shadys reasoning that I cannot be 100% confirmed town. Before I thought I could be confirmed, but I didn't realize then that mafia could roleblock my roleblock. What could have happened is the hypothetical real JK RBed a mafia, so that is why no one else is coming out saying they were RBed. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 27 2012 10:25 thrawn2112 wrote: What do you guys think about mkfuba? I'm gonna quote some of his posts regarding WeeTee. In that post he says his 2nd scumread is WeeTee. He says that WeeTee was also his 2nd scumread earlier in the game for reasons he couldn't put into words. All correct. I don't like declaring my reads without being able to support them. If, earlier than that, I had just said, "I find WeeTee suspicious, but I don't know why. ##FoS WeeTee," nothing would have come of that but suspicion towards me, which naturally I don't want to attract. Another instance of him mentioning WeeTee and reasons that are unexplainable. I suppose thinking back that my reluctance was based around the fact that I did, indeed, find dandel lon more suspicious. There were valid reasons to vote for WeeTee, but I didn't like being forced to switch to my second scumread simply to avoid a no-lynch. Look at his filter and you'll see he doesn't give a scumread until halfway into D1 and only does so because someone asked him for a read. Up till then he wasn't suspicious of anyone. Here's the timestamp of the post if you wanna look it up: Before the vote his top scumread was lvdr. Then out of nowhere there is this post: His first scumread of the game was lvdr, and then he votes for lvdr, and then all the sudden his 2 scumreads are dandel lon or WeeTee? What happened to lvdr being his strongest scumread? When I post a case against someone and it's ignored for over a day before someone comments on it only because I've explicitly asked everyone for feedback, and the feedback from the 2-3 people who actually respond is basically "he's pretty town", then I begin to question my read. On top of that, at that point we needed to come to an agreement and I didn't see that happening regarding Lvdr, so I had to decide between the two viable candidates at the time. Both showed evidence of scummy behavior, and Dandel lon became more suspicious to me than WeeTee upon closer inspection of his filter. My growing suspicions of Dandel lon made also made me question my read on Lvdr, because Lvdr is the one who wrote the case on Dandel lon. Also, a major aspect of my read on Lvdr was the lack of a committed read on anyone, which was provided in Dandel lon. As for my current reads on Lvdr, I'll need to review his filter again because I haven't had any time since the vote to analyze anything. He makes suspicious posts about WeeTee and has a lack of consistency in what was his "top" scumread. He didn't accuse anyone of being scum until he was asked to and said his top scumread was lvdr. Then he votes for lvdr and says WeeTee is his back up plan and that he's been suspicious of WeeTee the whole game for reasons he didn't know at the time. Then lvdr suggests voting for dandel and all the sudden mkfuba abandons his top scumread (lvdr) and doesn't mention him again for the rest of the game. Mkfuba votes for dandel. Then close to deadline he switches his vote for WeeTee and once again talks about his unexplainable feelings. ##FOS mkfuba07 I was consistent with my Lvdr scumread. All of my posts for an entire day (limited though my availability may have been) were either trying to get kush to stop playing horribly (one post and an EBWOP) or supporting my suspicions of Lvdr (3 substantial posts that were ignored for about 24 hours). You can't ignore everything I say about Lvdr and then say that I'm not supporting my read. When I was asked for my scumread, I gave it. I won't apologize for my more timid playstyle. Some are almost irrationally aggressive and nit-picky (Shady), and some are more cautious. I'm the latter. Also, considering the majority of D1 was spent discussing kush when I thought it was a completely stupid case against him, I had little to say other than trying to get kush to stop acting like a noob so that everyone else would finally move on. I felt like I was simply repeating the previous two games where someone does something dumb and noobish and the entire team pounces on him like ravenous dogs. Above I've addressed the rest of this paragraph, excluding the last sentence. To explain that, I'll point the the multiple times that I said that I would do whatever it takes to avoid a no-lynch. Since you said you would rather no-lynch than vote for Dandel lon, the only option was hopping on your bandwagon. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
It's hard to see you as town if you're really just playing timidly... being timid and not sharing reads are scum traits. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote: Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down. Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1. This quote is suspicious to me. The second sentence implies that they're either both town or both scum, and their attacks on each other make them appear townish because scum wouldn't bus each other this hard. This is a false dichotomy, and I'm not sure why Thrawn would see their suspicions of each other as two parts of one whole. It's as if he's reduced the situation to: they're scum bussing each other, or they're both town suspecting each other. Why abandon the possibility of one of them actually being scum? He then says that Shady looks more townish than Lvdr because of Lvdr's inconsistencies, but then says that Lvdr has given reasons for his actions which removes his suspicion. He gives no reasons for why Shady looks town, but says that he looks more townish because of Lvdr's previously suspicious behaviour. This ties back into his previous implication that they share an alignment, an implication that has no basis. The entire first paragraph seems like a soft defense of Shady without actually providing any evidence of his towniness. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 27 2012 11:51 thrawn2112 wrote: Your statements about why you didn't want to share reads on WeeTee make sense from a town-mkfuba perspective. But not being suspicious of anybody until someone asks you for a read is scummy behavior. Call it timid town play but to me it looked like you weren't scumhunting. You say you were consistent with your lvdr scumread. Everything you said about him was consistent, but your overall stance on him wasn't consistent because you completely abandoned your biggest case without telling us why he wasn't your top read until after the fact (just now.) It's hard to see you as town if you're really just playing timidly... being timid and not sharing reads are scum traits. My apologies for not explaining all of my reasoning at all times. Every time I do that I get called out for being a fluffy poster. If you'd like my reasoning on something that I haven't made explicit, feel free to ask. I'm quite accomodating. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 27 2012 12:03 mkfuba07 wrote: This quote is suspicious to me. The second sentence implies that they're either both town or both scum, and their attacks on each other make them appear townish because scum wouldn't bus each other this hard. This is a false dichotomy, and I'm not sure why Thrawn would see their suspicions of each other as two parts of one whole. It's as if he's reduced the situation to: they're scum bussing each other, or they're both town suspecting each other. Why abandon the possibility of one of them actually being scum? He then says that Shady looks more townish than Lvdr because of Lvdr's inconsistencies, but then says that Lvdr has given reasons for his actions which removes his suspicion. He gives no reasons for why Shady looks town, but says that he looks more townish because of Lvdr's previously suspicious behaviour. This ties back into his previous implication that they share an alignment, an implication that has no basis. The entire first paragraph seems like a soft defense of Shady without actually providing any evidence of his towniness. You say I gave no reasons for shady being town but as kush pointed out my read on shady has been town all game. My last read on shady is here. As for not pointing out that only one could be scum.. I didn't think that was the case because I thought they were both town. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote: Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down. Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1. I am growing less suspicious of Shady, just because 2 people have played with him before, lvdr and thrawn, and they confirm that how he is acting fits his meta. As for the lvdr and shady conflict, it does seem out of no where but they are bringing it in from another game. I don't see why that makes them both town. I think one could be mafia and the past conflict almost gives him an excuse to tunnel an innocent townie. @thrawn I really think dandel ion is town. I cannot see someone rolling mafia as being that ambivalent, because mafia the more coveted role. Even if I only had 2 hours of free time a day, if I rolled mafia I would try to make it work. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
I will be doing more posting later, at the moment I'm just doing spot responses. | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
1. Dandel was #1 scumread d1 2. Dandel pushed a mislynch. 3. He never sounded like a townie when he was defending himself. 4. He never referenced any IRL issues that limited his posting D1. Its not hard to say "excuse my low amount of posts, IRL issues." Replacement only came up after the lynch which makes it implausible for explaining the d1 lurkiness. 5. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=22#424 This post screams scum tapping out. He basically says "I would rather play gw2 and I don't give a shit about the town." Sounds like scum that knows hes caught. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 27 2012 14:29 Spaghetticus wrote: If I can't get a lynch on Shady, I am sure as hell getting a lynch on Dandel. He is so scummy it hurts. His opting out of the game is the only reason I have to doubt him, and that is also consistent with a mafia who is looking at a lynch. Think about it, if you were mafia and everyone was zeroing in on you, you could opt out to preserve your fragile self-esteem, or you could opt out to stop people lynching you as scum, which would lead to a better chance of scum victory. I will be doing more posting later, at the moment I'm just doing spot responses. That's what I was thinking when I posted this: On August 26 2012 20:29 thrawn2112 wrote: So what are you going to do? This statement... ...makes it look like you are going to stay in the game. But if you don't care about the game, then why would you remain in it? If you truly don't want to play anymore then you should drop out and ask for a replacement. He says he absolutely didn't have time to play... but then acts like he was going to stay in the game because "replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?" But if he couldn't play or didn't care... why would he want to remain in the game at all? He only dropped out of the game once he was pressured to do so. Is dandel going to be replaced? | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
On August 27 2012 10:45 Spaghetticus wrote: ##FoS thrawn2112 I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality. I agree with this and I also think that the fos on mkfuba from thrawn is quite suspicious. First, the wagon on WeeTee was largely thrawn's doing. I thought it was just bad play at the time, but it could be more sinister. Second, given WeeTee's green flip, I think Dandel HAS to be suspect #1. This smells like mafia trying to disperse the suspicion on the hopes that the replacement wipes the slate for dandel and town can be sent in another direction. The case made by Thrawn also seems like a huge reach and not very strong. HOWEVER, we need to lynch dandel before we decide who to lynch next. If dandel is mafia, THEN we can decide (based on evidence) who his partner is. If he is not, we will have a body of evidence and a number of suspicious players to look at. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 27 2012 14:45 Lvdr wrote: I agree with this and I also think that the fos on mkfuba from thrawn is quite suspicious. First, the wagon on WeeTee was largely thrawn's doing. I thought it was just bad play at the time, but it could be more sinister. Second, given WeeTee's green flip, I think Dandel HAS to be suspect #1. This smells like mafia trying to disperse the suspicion on the hopes that the replacement wipes the slate for dandel and town can be sent in another direction. The case made by Thrawn also seems like a huge reach and not very strong. HOWEVER, we need to lynch dandel before we decide who to lynch next. If dandel is mafia, THEN we can decide (based on evidence) who his partner is. If he is not, we will have a body of evidence and a number of suspicious players to look at. Most of my suspicion on WeeTee was because I asked him a question over and over without him even acknowledging it... was probably around 10 times and even spaghetticus asked him. + Show Spoiler + On August 25 2012 23:17 Spaghetticus wrote: WeeTee, you are doing yourself no favours by leaving this to hang. Please make your position here clear! I am bolding this shit so you no longer have an excuse!! I do agree to a lynch on dandel because of his D1 lurking and the odd manner in which he dropped out, but when the replacement comes we shouldn't ask the replacement to defend things dandel said because that is a big waste of time. A replacement would not be able to interpret/explain dandel's posts better than any one of us. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 27 2012 12:24 thrawn2112 wrote: You say I gave no reasons for shady being town but as kush pointed out my read on shady has been town all game. My last read on shady is here. As for not pointing out that only one could be scum.. I didn't think that was the case because I thought they were both town. And my response to that is that without already thinking that they're both town, the entire post falls apart. Now for my case against Shady Sands, though it does start with me responding to thrawn's earlier defense of Shady: On August 26 2012 23:01 thrawn2112 wrote: I'm gonna stick with my town read on shady. In the cases against him (mostly spag's) he is mainly accused of picking apart statements to try and throw suspicion around. He does indeed nitpick a lot, but the only times when the nitpicks seemed like they could have been scum motivated were at the beginning of the game when there wasn't anything to talk about except lurker policy. As I read through his filter his questions became more and more indicative of somebody who is scumhunting rather than someone who is trying to generate pointless suspicion. Makes sense.... the level of controversy slowly builds as the game progresses so constant aggressive questioning will look scummy at first when there is no controversy. Regarding this part of your previous read, I disagree with it. I'll give you your acceptance of his meta as a town-tell, though I'm keeping it as a null tell because if I don't think the play is helping then I'm not going to say it's pro-town. I am going to go through his filter again to decide whether I think he's properly scumhunting, but since the last time I truly read through his filter I just saw him acting like himself, and that play made me vote for him in XXIV. He did change his votes around during the last half of D1 but his overall motives were consistent and transparent. For example, he agreed with my case against WeeTee and said he would consider WeeTee as a 2nd candidate before most other people had done so. He was one of the first to commit to that (backup WeeTee plan) and he followed through on it. He has maintained his other suspicions (against kush and lvdr) very consistently while continuing to scumhunt. As for being the one of the first to commit to a vote switch to WeeTee, he may have been the first to mention it, but he put the choice into my hands. If Mkfuba doesn't vote WeeTee nobody gets lynched. And shouldn't WeeTee be in this thread? Okay. Mkfuba, you hold the hammer. I don't get how you can view WeeTee's actual vote and KushM4sta-level anti-town play as being less worth a vote than Dandel's "active lurking." Furthermore, if Dandel is as experienced as people suggest, it is better to have him around than a terrible poster who won't contribute to scumhunt. Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee. It's impossible to have a 100% scum read on ANYONE D1. Telling me to switch to someone I found less suspicious because I don't have a 100% scum read on the other on D1 is so suspicious I don't know why I didn't question it earlier, but I do know that the entire time I was sitting there deciding on what to do, I was being constantly pressured to make the first move in the transfer to WeeTee. It wasn't until I said that I would do it that he actually switched his vote. On top of that, his appeal for me to to vote for WeeTee over Dandel lon because of his post quality is scummy. That shouldn't ever be a factor in the decision to lynch someone unless there is somehow not a single scummy candidate. Shady should know that. I agree that consistency is typically a town-tell, but a good player knows that. If anything, Shady's playstyle makes it easier to be consistent as scum because scum know that all of their cases must be embellished or contrived, and his manner of playing zeroes in on the tiniest flaws. His case on kush is an example of this. I see almost a 0% chance of a player of kush's apparently skill level fake claiming JK. It's so much more likely (I'm tempted to say infinitely more likely) that kush is a noob who roleclaimed when he was threatened, as many people do when they play live mafia. But Shady uses it as direct evidence to drive us to vote for him. Here is his original post. All of kush's posts until Shady's were incredibly bad. They do nothing but cast suspicion on himself while making crappy cases against others without evidence. Would a scum kush, after all of that crappiness, actually consider bussing himself to get a blue role to claim? Absolutely not. Add to that the fact that the only other support for a kush lynch was a player (who did not flip JK) who played so poorly we decided to lynch him. I see three possibilities here: 1. Shady is actually JK and that explains his powerful suspicions of kush 2. There is not a JK, so no one else is voting to support Shady's kush lynch 3. Shady tried to push a lynch on kush because he was an easy target and didn't gather enough support I find the likelihood of these cases to be 3>1>2. I think #3 has been covered above. #1 I would accept as a valid reason, but I don't think that kush would have fakeclaimed so I don't think it's likely. #2 I don't see as a possibility because I believe kush's RB claim. Even if I didn't, in that case I would have to assume that there isn't a roleblocker in the game since no one else has claimed to have been roleblocked. I don't see this as probable because two of the three possible power roles are capable of role blocking and I doubt that neither of them made it into the game. These posts also lend credence to Shady playing in a way that I don't think are town-motivated but can still be seen as consistent with Shady's meta: post 1, post 2 Because of the way he's played in the past, going by a meta read will simply show him as being consistent, aggressive, and stubborn. But I believe that he never had a very strong case, and he can't back off now because kush hasn't shown enough improvement to change his read. I think this consistancy aspect of my case mostly comes down to peoples' personal reads on the kush situation. I believe scum Shady has little trouble being consistent, because his meta allows him to latch onto someone and never let go for little reason. Scum have to find evidence where there shouldn't be any, and I believe he's taken the bait with kush. ##vote Shady Sands | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
I would still vote for him though, because I think if he does turn scum, that would do a lot to alleviate my suspicion of shady. Here's why I think dandel and shady cant be a scumteam. On August 26 2012 20:27 Shady Sands wrote: What the hell? Town hasn't been pushing you nearly as hard as Kush or WT or even me, for that matter. If you've got some time now, spit out your reads. And asking to quit like this is just bad play. If you're going to AFK from thread because you don't like the game anymore, PM a mod, don't say it in the thread. Read the exchange. To me it says these guys are either both town or only one is scum. | ||
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