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Introduction:
Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating: Standard rules apply. If you're not familiar with them, please read them below.
+ Show Spoiler +Cheating includes (but is not limited to):
1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information.
2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town.
3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role.
4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles.
5. Posting screenshots of your inbox.
6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host.
7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip.
8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts.
9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits.
10. Sharing accounts with other players unless cleared by the host in advance. Otherwise, only you may post on your account.
11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM.
12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host.
Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font:
This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font:
This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity:
You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote:
Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam:
Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here. This also means you should condense your posts when possible. 15 one-liners in 30 minutes is unacceptable.
Editing:
Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be replaced. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts:
If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts:
The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions:
Please wait until this game is over to talk about replacements/modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication:
It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done in this thread. Please keep votes here, and only vote here. Do not PM us your vote.
2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. To change your vote, post ##unvote, then vote normally.
3. No conditional voting.
4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.
5. This game uses Majority Lynch. i.e. six players remain, four are needed to lynch.
6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Signups:
This game is open to anyone who has played three or less games of Mafia on TL. Signups will remain open until all 13 spots have been filled.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills:
This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements
This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game until Day Three. If a player is modkilled during the designated time, then they will be replaced by a player on the replacement list. Replacements are greatly preferred over modkills, so please PM one of the hosts if you are willing to replace in and don't ask for the obs QT.
Clues:
There are (no) clues.
PMs
PMs are (not) allowed in this game.
Time Cycle:
This game will follow a 48 hour day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 21:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after.
Credits:
Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer.
Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
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The Setup
This is a semi-open setup. You will know which roles may appear in the game but not the number. Well, there is at least one vanilla townie. But that's all you know.
This setup is based on the F11 setup, tweaked slightly for use here on TL.
Role PMs:
Townie: You're a vanilla townie! Thanks to the mad scientist at the top of the hill, you lost all of the superpowers you used to have. Well, at least, that you thought you had. Maybe you never had superpowers, and just dreamt the whole thing. At any rate, right now, you don't have superpowers, so you're stuck combatting crime by working together with the rest of the superpowerless peoples who live in this town. You may vote to lynch one person per day.
Cop: You're a cop! Well, not really, but you've got a badge, and it turns out that that's good enough for most people. Which is strange, because you have a nasty habit of looking through peoples windows at night. Why do people put up with you? Every night, you may investigate one person. Your investigation will return town or mafia, and you are gauranteed sane.
Jailkeeper: You're a jailkeeper! But only during the night. And you don't really have a jail, just some pink fluffy handcuffs. The overall effect is the same, except the people you lock up at night are actually happy about it the next morning. Every night, you may jail one person. This person will be protected from 1 kill point and will be roleblocked. If you know what I mean.
Goon: You're a goon! After being picked on and despised for oh so many years, you've finally had enough, and decided to take your revenge upon this town! THEY WILL SUFFER! Or something. You don't actually know what you want. BUT THEY WILL PAY.
Roleblocker: You are a roleblocker! You have a nasty habit of going to the bar and getting drunk. Like really, really drunk. Super drunk. This has two effects. One, you're super drunk at night, and super hung over in the morning. Two, you never drink alone, so you managed to keep some other poor soul smashed throughout the entire night, keeping them from doing whatever it was they were planning on doing. By the way, you also hate everyone. That might explain why you're always drunk.
Q&A
- Town wins when there are no more scum.
- Scum wins when they outnumber town or nothing can prevent this from happening.
- Scum KP is fixed at 1.
- It takes (players remaining+1)/2 rounded up votes to lynch somebody. ie, with 6 players in the game, it takes 4 to lynch.
- Targets who are roleblocked are always notified if they have been roleblocked.
- If the jailkeeper and roleblocker target each other, both are notified of the roleblock. If one targets the other, the target will be roleblocked, and the target's roleblock will not go through.+ Show Spoiler +
Not that it's relevant this game, but in this situation, the scum RB is not protected from night actions. According to the "seduced jailer" theory, the jailer attempts to jail the scum RB during the night. However, the scum RB seduces the jailer inside the jail cell. Since the jailer wouldn't lock himself in his/her own jail cell, the scum RB must vulnerable to night actions.
- Role PMs may vary slightly from the ones shown here.
- There are no 3rd Party Planer Dragons in this game. Probably.
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shamelessly stole this from EchelonTee. thanks mate!
Newbie-specific stuff
- It's already in the rules, but remember, no editing. If you feel you must correct your post, please make a second post to clarify your statements. You may put EBWOP ("Edit by way of post," a handy acronym invented by semioldguy) at the beginning of your post to indicate that you are clearing up a point you made. If your EBWOP post is several posts after your original, please quote your original post in your EBWOP post for the sake of clarity.
- Another thing in the rules: Don't talk about this game outside of the thread. Keep everything right here.
- Only sign up if you know you will have the time available to properly play the game. It is essential that players remain active in a newbie game, so only /in if you are able to play to your fullest.
- If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open.
- Behave as gentlemen (or ladies). Things get heated here, but personal attacks will not be acceptable, and will be dealt with accordingly. Remember, this is a game; have fun and happy scumhunting!
- glhf!
Useful Guides
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I'm guessing my current game has to end before I can /in on this.... or is this one going to start after XXIV?
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If I'm allowed to play 2 games at once, I'm /in.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I highly, highly recommend against playing in 2 games at once. I personally never do so under any circumstances*, even as an experienced player.
Due to the upcoming GSL Open Season 2 Mini Mafia, I will only have time to /observe this game, so I hope you can find a coach, ghost_403.
*: I make an exception if a game really really needs a replacement, sometimes.
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On August 19 2012 14:07 WeeTee wrote:
/in first game
welcome new guy!
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/in
Edit: Will there be 9 players or 13?
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On August 19 2012 10:09 Blazinghand wrote:
I highly, highly recommend against playing in 2 games at once. I personally never do so under any circumstances*, even as an experienced player.
Due to the upcoming GSL Open Season 2 Mini Mafia, I will only have time to /observe this game, so I hope you can find a coach, ghost_403.
*: I make an exception if a game really really needs a replacement, sometimes.
Let's take the pro advice this time.
/out
/replacement
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On August 19 2012 19:46 mkfuba07 wrote:
/in
Edit: Will there be 9 players or 13?
This setup has 9 players total: two mafia, seven blue/green.
On August 19 2012 05:04 thrawn2112 wrote:
I'm guessing my current game has to end before I can /in on this.... or is this one going to start after XXIV?
This one probably won't start for at least a few more days. I'm not sure when XXIV is going to end. See Blzinghand's advice concerning playing multiple games.
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alright, if xxiv ends in time i will join
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On August 20 2012 09:01 thrawn2112 wrote:
/in
I feel for ya, bud.
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On August 20 2012 09:10 Dandel Ion wrote:I feel for ya, bud.
Yeah the stress during that last game had been building up for about 3 days now and I didn't know if I would want to play again. Now that I'm lynched I honestly do not care one bit about it, honestly it's a huge relief. At least now I won't have to continue being as levelheaded as possible in a thread where people weren't trying hard at all. I'm SO glad that my part in that game is over and for all I care town can go suck a big one. lol
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Please refrain from discussing games in progress.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
shit that reminds me ghost, i'm pm you
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I added it to the "newbie specific stuff".
LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE DIDN'T READ THE OP
:O
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
oh, it's #2. I got confused 
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On August 20 2012 18:42 Shady Sands wrote:
/in
hi shady glhf..... i'm looking forward to playing with you as well as anyone else i've played with
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/in
Also, being a math student, a more correct way of presenting the lynch formula would be ((P/2)+1) rounded down, where P is players remaining. Because 6/2 rounded up is 3 not 4(in math anyway, since you don't round whole numbers).
It takes (players remaining)/2 rounded up votes to lynch somebody. ie, with 6 players in the game, it takes 4 to lynch.
Sorry, but I couldn't help myself. 
Edit: Also, first game ever for me on TL(only played the sc2 custom map).
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I like this setup.... nice and simple for us noobs
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Agreed. My hope is to get passed D2 in this game.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
don't forget thrawn /ined, ghost! :>
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@marv: I dunno what you're talking about.
@alsn: whoops ^^ I had the same guy who wrote my thesis write my OP, and it looks like he's completely clueless, as per usual. FIX'D.
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On August 21 2012 22:12 ghost_403 wrote:@alsn: whoops ^^ I had the same guy who wrote my thesis write my OP, and it looks like he's completely clueless, as per usual. FIX'D. Hah!
I especially like it how you modified it in order to keep rounding up, but now it is correct, so touché! 
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Number of votes needed to lynch Alsn = marv
how's that for maths
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On August 22 2012 00:10 marvellosity wrote:
Number of votes needed to lynch Alsn = marv
how's that for maths Now you're just being rude!
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
it's a cut-throat game, dearest 
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On August 22 2012 00:10 marvellosity wrote:
Number of votes needed to lynch Alsn = marv
how's that for maths
So are you implying that you are scum?
Cuz it sure looks like it.
€: Oh wow, even admitting to cutting throats.
##VOTE DAT DUDE
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
not everything I write is a scum claim T.T
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Don't listen to him, Marv autorolls scum.
Check out my last game, he killed Qatol Day 1.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
I did off a few people that game. The weak deserve to die!
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alsn i will expect complex formulas and scum-finding algorithms all game and if you don't provide them then FOS ALSN
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Whoooooeeeeeeee
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Chill out. Gotta sleep first. 'Gnight.
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3rd Party Planer Dragons? I did a tl search and it some kind of joke right? Also, I looked up the F11 setup... can I assume that the town/scum ratio is 7:2?
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Yes, 3rd Party Planar Dragons are a TL Mafia joke.
And yes, 7 townies, 2 scum.
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Now that there are enough players, any eta on game start? Just wanna make sure I'll be awake when it starts
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I can't answer that for ghost, but I believe he mentioned that the dealines are going to be 5pm EST/2pm PST. So 18 hour or so, if the game starts tomorrow.
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Great, now I actually got to do stuff.
Game starts today at 21:00 GMT (+00:00)!!! Role PMs will get going out shortly before that. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves until I start sending out the PMs.
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Advance warning, yo:
I'll be working during the night today, and most likely won't be able to find an internet there.
Which means I probably won't post during the first ~7-8 hours of the game. But maybe I will. We'll see.
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Already making excuses for scum-like activity! Tsk tsk.
FoS Dandel lon
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Promethelax actually tried to make a case against me for lurking last game.
Because I was "lurking" while I was asleep.
He also flipped scum.
ergo:
mkfuba is SCUM
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On August 23 2012 22:52 mkfuba07 wrote:
Already making excuses for scum-like activity! Tsk tsk.
FoS Dandel lon
what a poor case to base an FOS on
fos mkfuba
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Well, since no one else is gonna do it...
##vote mkfuba
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Guys, I was just trying to stimulate discussion!
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Oh if that's the case, then it's okay..
My next scumread is ghost.I am a life sized plush dragon. Clearly a scumslip
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On August 23 2012 23:45 Dandel Ion wrote:Oh if that's the case, then it's okay.. My next scumread is ghost. Clearly a scumslip
Pointing fingers everywhere and causing chaos.
## Vote Dandel Ion
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alright it's time for my first case:
the facts:
- marvellosity and ghost have already had suspicion cast on them, despite not being in the game
- mkfuba votes for Dandel Ion based on pre game banter
- mkfuba later tries to provide an out for himself by saying he was just trying to "stimulate discussion"
- Dandel Ion for some unexplained reason is willing to accept this response?
- meanwhile the host of the game votes mkfuba
Conclusion:
I think it is safe to assume that the game likely hasn't started yet.
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On August 24 2012 00:00 thrawn2112 wrote:
alright it's time for my first case:
the facts:
- marvellosity and ghost have already had suspicion cast on them, despite not being in the game
- mkfuba votes for Dandel Ion based on pre game banter
- mkfuba later tries to provide an out for himself by saying he was just trying to "stimulate discussion"
- Dandel Ion for some unexplained reason is willing to accept this response?
- meanwhile the host of the game votes mkfuba
Conclusion:
I think it is safe to assume that the game likely hasn't started yet.
Lies. You just try to divert attention.
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I don't believe any of you are actively trying to hunt scum.
##vote marvellosity
You know... just 'cause.
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Wonder what it would be like for a bastard mod to start a game without a single mafia member in it, just a whole bunch of one-shot vigis and roleblockers
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On August 24 2012 00:05 Shady Sands wrote:
Wonder what it would be like for a bastard mod to start a game without a single mafia member in it, just a whole bunch of one-shot vigis and roleblockers
I also want to see a game with just a bunch of different mafia groups and no town (they all think they're the only mafias), where everyone tries to look as "town" as possible.
le trollface
Too bad this one will only work for a daycycle or two
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By the way, I messed up the time code earlier. Game starts today at 21:00 GMT (+00:00). Previous post was fixed as well.
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game's starting in a few hours, so GLHF everyone and no hard feelings based on whatever happens in game
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Role PMs will be going out shortly. Please refrain from talking until the Day post goes up.
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Beginning of Day 1
![[image loading]](http://www.cutelittlefactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/yellow-submarine.jpg) Figure 1: The submarine you're standing in looks exactly like this one, only not yellow.
Marvellosity was just doing some basic submarine maintenance when he heard a strange sound from down the corridor. He wasted no time in plastering himself to the nearest wall, praying that whatever had made that noise was not as bad as he thought it might be. Was it the dreadful Abzorbaloff? A spitflower? Something so terrifying, no human words existed to describe it? It could be anything, he thought to himself while trying to calm himself down.
Note that Marvellosity wasn't actually scared of whatever made the sound. He just liked to pretend that he was on a spaceship. Submarines are infinitely worse than spaceships. At least that's what he thought. (He was wrong. Submarines are cool.)
He snuck down the corridor to investigate what was making the noise. Poking his head out of the bulkhead at the end of the hall, he saw that someone was working inside the airlock. That's kind of strange, he thought to himself. Posturing himself like the good submarine-er that he was, he walked into the airlock, only to see ghost_403, clad in scuba gear, ripping the wires out of the wall.
"Ghost! What are you doing!"
ghost_403 cracked an evil grin, and hit the large red button marked "DO NOT PRESS". The door behind Marvellosity closed, and the room began filling with water.
Marvellosity the engineer was drowned in a regular sea!
ghost_403 the saboteur escaped through the airlock!
Day 1 has begun! You have 48 hours to identify which of you are in cahoots with ghost_403.
Deadline is at 21:00 GMT (+00:00).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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What does everyone think about lurker policy? I will be aggresively questioning lurkers independently from my scumhunting. If lurkers are not pressured to contribute, then they'll keep lurking until they flip red or get mislynched for giving the appearence of not contributing. In order to avoid a lurker mislynch, I advise everyone to pressure all lurkers so that everyone's reads will be out in the open for us all to analyze.
Ways to pressure lurkers:
- call them out for lurking
- ask them for their top scum reads
- ask them for their read on the most popular case
- give them a reasonable time to respond to you and keep calling them out
- if you can't get a sufficient response from them then a ##FOS Lurker is in order
- do not stop scumhunting in order to push your lurker vote candidate
It is absolutely vital to town morale that everyone is contributing. The more lurkers there are, the more everyone will doubt the legitimacy of their scum reads. Everyone needs to do their part to keep everyone else active.
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Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
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I fully endorse Thrawn's position. Will add in advance that since I'm also participating in Normal III my activity level here will be a lot less than the crazy aggression I displayed in XXIV. I'm also a big fan of getting the scumhunt rolling as soon as possible. If you're one of the last few people to come in and post, then I will expect you to have a case ready upon coming in.
Reasoning? I don't want to give scum the "second mover" advantage where they can just park outside the thread and then push depending on which way the wind is blowing. If scum lurk outside the thread and then come in late, I want them to pay for it by being forced to dump a read right from the get go without being able to test the waters beforehand.
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Alright, let's do this.
To start with, this is my first forum mafia game ever, but that's not something I will use as an excuse. I've been following a few other games in this forum so I think I at least have some clue as to what I should be doing.
Now, being in Europe this part of the day is usually my sleeping schedule, so for me I'll usually be most active during the hours approaching "whole" days(such as the 10-12 hours before voting/night deadlines).
From the games I've looked at I absolutely agree with thrawn on the lurker pressuring gig, simply on the premise that more posts = more things to try to keep straight for scum.
Also, in the last game I followed there was a lot of talk about meta and how people played in previous games. I feel that given the few amount of games people have played in this newbie game(me in particular!) this is not something that I feel people should be focusing on(too much anyway). In fact, establishing healthy pro-town conversation and forcing people to speak up seems a much more fruitful strategy to pursue.
I would also like to mention that I feel we should discourage town from any kind of day 1 trolling and consider it a scum move. Seeing as anyone who is town behaving in such a manner is likely to cast all attention on them and way too easily let scum seem all too reasonable in painting targets on them. I realize that the game I am drawing this conclusion from is a game in progress(the prior newbie mini mafia) but the way that day 1 in that game was completely derailed is not something that I look forward to or seems like healthy pro-town behaviour.
And that's it for my introductory post, toodles.
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Hey guise
This is my second-and-a-half game. If you want to read my first (+1/2) game, it was NMM XXIII, where I rolled vanilla town twice.
As I stated before the game I'm at work right now, so I will just post my thoughts on policy for now:
First off, considering the effectiveness it had in XXIII, I am strongly in favor of a lurker-lynch policy. Of course, it should primarily be a tool to pressure lurkers into activity, and we shouldn't lynch somebody JUST because he's lurking. But if somebody active seems scummy, and a lurker seems equally scummy, I would probably prefer to lynch the lurker.
Note that this is probably only applicable for day 1, since from day 2 onwards, scumreads should usually be strong enough to push through with them.
But what I would really like to see is everybody to contribute, and no lurkers at all
Any kind of trolling or lying I would also consider a scum-tell, but always keep in mind that this is a newbie game - in XXIII I tunneled somebody really hard day 1 because I thought he was intentionally trying to sow confusion, when he really was just a... less-than-optimal town player. Try to keep that in mind - judging if somebody plays bad, or plays scummy can be hard, especially if it's his first game and we have no meta to fall back on.
On meta, I think it's a good idea for everyone to read past games of other players to get a feel for them, but always consider that we're newbies and meta might change slightly between games too.
A little sidenote: please try to be present at day-ends, especially early in the game.
Goodnight, town.
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Hey this is my first game. I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT.
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On August 24 2012 07:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
But if somebody active seems scummy, and a lurker seems equally scummy, I would probably prefer to lynch the lurker. Note that this is probably only applicable for day 1, since from day 2 onwards, scumreads should usually be strong enough to push through with them.
I don't agree with this. I don't see how a lurker could seem equally scummy as someone who is actively scummy. If someone is lurking then by definition of lurking we have less posts from them to analyze. Are you saying that you want to vote for a lurker D1 even if there is a strong scum candidate? There needs to be some sort of threat to get lurkers to post but I think the process of calling them out over and over again, each time with stronger words and eventually a FOS will get them to post. If not, then their behavior will be remembered for the rest of the game. I stand by my strict no-lurking rule but I favor a scumhunting case over an absolute D1 lurker-lynch policy.
I'd just like a little clarification on your position concerning favoring a lurker vote or a scum vote.
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On August 24 2012 07:31 kushm4sta wrote:
Hey this is my first game. I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT.
Hey what's up and glhf.
You could give your thoughts on what everyone else is talking about.
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Hey this is my first game too.
Its morning in Australia and I will be able to post from this time onwards mostly.
The lurker lynch seems like a good idea to get ppl into discussion but careful we might just be in weird time zones to the rest of you all!!
Thrawn you intimidate me with your confidence already, but I think that you'll be good to learn the game from!
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Greetings from Australia!
Hi guys, this is also my first game but don't hold back o_0
I am in agreement with Scrawn's list:
Ways to pressure lurkers:
- call them out for lurking
- ask them for their top scum reads
- ask them for their read on the most popular case
- give them a reasonable time to respond to you and keep calling them out
- if you can't get a sufficient response from them then a ##FOS Lurker is in order
- do not stop scumhunting in order to push your lurker vote candidate
Particularly the last point.
However, I agree with Dandel Ion in that lurking should contribute to your scum reading, and that lurkers should be prioritised over active scum-like players, as it is the lurking scum that is more dangerous than the active.
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On August 24 2012 08:34 Spaghetticus wrote:
However, I agree with Dandel Ion in that lurking should contribute to your scum reading, and that lurkers should be prioritised over active scum-like players, as it is the lurking scum that is more dangerous than the active.
Once again I'd like to express my disagreement with the bolded part. If there is absolutely no agreement within the town on who to vote for once the deadline approaches then a lurker would be my next choice. But I don't see how we would be able to more accurately pick out a lurker scum than an active scum.
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I'd also like to ask you all to evaluate me on the sum content of my posts, and not so much the frequency. I have a heavy load at college and, as stated earlier, am from Australia, which makes it difficult to be a constant poster. I will do my very best to be active whenever I can, but I may be unable to answer questions etc. immediately.
I am not aiming to make an exception for myself, if my posts do not stand strong, lynch me asap. This is simply forewarning that my responses may not be entirely prompt.
I look forward to playing with you all!
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Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.
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@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player.
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Also, lynching a controversial, but active player d1 tends to be a mislynch.
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Total disclosure a, also in normal mafia xxx.
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On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote:
Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.
I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?
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Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads.
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On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
:S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
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On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads.
Fair enough, just wanted to get a clarification off you.
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Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why?
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Right now my eyes are on Kush and WeeTee. Yes it is their first games, but thats no excuse to just sheep onto others ideas. Get out there! Don't use your newbiness as an excuse!
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Wait has everyone posted already?
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On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already?
I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town.
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So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad? Everyone's posts so far have been useless IMO.
I have a lot of free time so yeah I will read this thread pretty much constantly and carefully. And as soon as I suspect someone or have something to say I will say it. But at this point it's impossible to know anything about anyone so dont point fingers at me because Im new.
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On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads.
If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan.
Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan.
On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player.
I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes.
But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else.
On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town.
That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look.
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On August 24 2012 09:33 kushm4sta wrote:
So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad? Everyone's posts so far have been useless IMO.
I have a lot of free time so yeah I will read this thread pretty much constantly and carefully. And as soon as I suspect someone or have something to say I will say it. But at this point it's impossible to know anything about anyone so dont point fingers at me because Im new.
Nobody said they wanted to lynch you, and nobody is pointing fingers at you because you're new. We just want everyone to be involved in the discussion.
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On August 24 2012 09:33 kushm4sta wrote:
So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad? Everyone's posts so far have been useless IMO.
I have a lot of free time so yeah I will read this thread pretty much constantly and carefully. And as soon as I suspect someone or have something to say I will say it. But at this point it's impossible to know anything about anyone so dont point fingers at me because Im new.
No worries, all of us here were once new (or are new). What I meant there was that when you post something which is basically
"I have nothing to say"
Then that doesn't help out the town, because the town doesn't get a read on your opinion, one way or another. Even on small things like lurker lynching, that's important, because every opinion is another piece of evidence for town to better determine whether or not you're guilty.
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So at best, your post doesn't contribute to town. At worst, you could just be feigning activity to get in early as a scum and not have to provide cases right from the get go.
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Also the lurker discussion can be thrown out the window because it looks like we have no lurkers
Kush lets see you go out on a limb!
Townie nubs have nothing to fear, Scummy nubs have to be veeeeeeeery careful what they say.
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Hey Lvdr.
I might elaborate that I disagree with the Lurker policy in part because it establishes a guideline for the scum to act upon, this is a Newbie game so as long as people are trying to participate I will not be basing any votes on Lurking at least for the first day.
On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why?
Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling!
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On August 24 2012 09:45 WeeTee wrote:Hey Lvdr. I might elaborate that I disagree with the Lurker policy in part because it establishes a guideline for the scum to act upon, this is a Newbie game so as long as people are trying to participate I will not be basing any votes on Lurking at least for the first day. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why? Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling!
Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far but all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
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On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan.
FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game.
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should read:
On August 24 2012 09:51 thrawn2112 wrote:
Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far and all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
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On August 24 2012 09:51 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game.
you know... my whole obsession with archrun and the vig shot on him N1 thing
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On August 24 2012 09:54 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:51 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game. you know... my whole obsession with archrun and the vig shot on him N1 thing
Ah, I wasn't around for that.... being dead, thanks to you.
j/k I tunneled you just as hard that game, no hard feelings.
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Lets leave previous games in the past.
For what its worth I think Shady is Town, he's doing a good impression of his town meta.
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On August 24 2012 09:56 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:54 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:51 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. FWIW I think what happened last game was that you got me lynched when I rolled town, in spite of me being the most active D1 poster by far, so I'm not sure how you could say that your focus on lurkers caused you to play poorly in the last game. you know... my whole obsession with archrun and the vig shot on him N1 thing Ah, I wasn't around for that.... being dead, thanks to you. j/k I tunneled you just as hard that game, no hard feelings.
yeah of course.. it was a case of extremely active townies yelling at each other with bad results for both
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On August 24 2012 09:58 Lvdr wrote:
Lets leave previous games in the past.
For what its worth I think Shady is Town, he's doing a good impression of his town meta.
By that you mean examining and questioning everything he possibly can? I gotta agree with that.
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On August 24 2012 10:02 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:58 Lvdr wrote:
Lets leave previous games in the past.
For what its worth I think Shady is Town, he's doing a good impression of his town meta. By that you mean examining and questioning everything he possibly can? I gotta agree with that.
Well someone has to do it. The last game's attempt to spark activity (mass posting filters) turned out to be a waste of time.
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New players what do you think of my claim on shady?
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Ok, I hate myself, getting to bed at a somewhat normal time failed majorly and since I need to be up for when GW2 servers come up early saturday, it seems my earlier plan of sleeping needs to change, so new plan: Staying up for another 12-15 hours and then instead going to bed early tomorrow(when I'll be totally exhausted).
Anyway, from skimming through the thread I have a few things that I probably want to comment on, so that will follow shortly(or, when I've made some tea and eaten a sandwich).
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I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum.
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WeeTee explain your read? Why is Shady a null read to you?
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On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum.
Could you give your best guess and reason why? You gotta give us something to work with. It is difficult when you think about meta but you should at least try to make a read. After what I thought of your other post it's looking like you aren't eager to contribute.
On August 24 2012 09:51 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:45 WeeTee wrote:Hey Lvdr. I might elaborate that I disagree with the Lurker policy in part because it establishes a guideline for the scum to act upon, this is a Newbie game so as long as people are trying to participate I will not be basing any votes on Lurking at least for the first day. On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why? Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling! Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far but all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that!
I also wanna hear what mkfuba, kush, alsn, Spaghetticus, and Dandel Ion are thinking. More so mkfuba kush and spaghetti because dandel is sleeping and alsn already promised a post.
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I just feel like he can read the meta well, Shady is clearly fluent in his play style and capable of leading us in a particular direction.
Thinking about the meta is retarded so I wont speculate aloud any more.
On me and my style, clearly i'm not as precise as some of you but there's no reason that everyone must conform to full fledged suspicions. Having a few cents is an influential position in any social scene.
Perhaps I will blossom with content when I see a read that I believe and something more than the pokes and prods i'm getting.
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On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum.
Im agreeing with the other noob here. Number 1, I don't think looking at the meta is an effective way of determining anything. Therefore, like weetee i have no idea what shady is.
If i had to suspect someone its speghetticus, who is the perfect combination of bandwagoning and being quiet to remain off the radar.
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking.
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On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum. Im agreeing with the other noob here. Number 1, I don't think looking at the meta is an effective way of determining anything. Therefore, like weetee i have no idea what shady is. If i had to suspect someone its speghetticus, who is the perfect combination of bandwagoning and being quiet to remain off the radar. Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion.
Just wait till things start getting interesting if you wanna see some epically long posts with quotes
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking.
Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite.
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@Lvdr
I tend to agree that Shady is not deviating much from his town meta, but as I said earlier I don't think we can trust meta that much in a game like this, especially since many of us are not qualified enough to draw conclusions from it. With such a small sample size we are bound to make mistakes if we focus on it too much. In fact, I think it's too early to tell from a few hours of one-liners and newbie advice even if there was some good analysis to be had from it.
As for yourself, I would think that as an experienced player you would be able to offer better advice to the beginners than:On August 24 2012 09:20 Lvdr wrote:
Get out there! Don't use your newbiness as an excuse!
Given that, I feel that the following comment deserves scrutiny:On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote:
New players what do you think of my claim on shady?
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!". Especially since comparing meta is not something easily done during a stressful day 1 as a new player(I tried while observing XXIV, it's really confusing).
So Lvdr, while I have no good reason to suspect you on anything but what I right now perceive as laziness, that could change if you don't start leading by example instead of through fingerpointing.
@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. Why, for example, did players call you out in the way they did? Was it to deflect? Was it to make themselves seem overly active while they in fact were not? Was there another reason such as simply trying to help you start contributing?
There is a good reason for the "lynch the lurker" policy. This because it is in the towns interest to catch scum with dubious motivations or casting blame on shaky grounds and that can only happen if we force them to speak up. Thus, the worst thing you can do right now is to stay quiet and offer yourselves up to scum casting the blame on you without themselves seeming suspicious.
Instead, what we presumably want to encourage are lots of backs and forths in order to have a history on who everyone suspected and when, and for what reason(the filter button on the right side of people's posts are good for seeing this). As long as you carefully think about your arguments, no self-respecting townie should have any problem with starting discussion. Things to start discussions about can be: Who seems to be promoting the town agenda? Who are the people that look the most suspicious to you? And why! Is there someone who you feel are using bad or dodgy reasons as basis for their arguments?
Looking at the thread there have been a few posts since I started writing this, will read and post more in a while.
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On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!"
I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here:
@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations.
I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
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@Alsn-- There is no reason you should allow me to be complacent. My read is super early and can always change, but Shady is looking like his agressive town meta right now. Of course some more posting will be important for confirmation.
I'm trying to get some good discussion started.
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On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. (Emphasis mine)
I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already? I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look.
In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town.
You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument.
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta
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Oh, one more thing, if anyone does not understand any abbreviations, I found the following link to be very helpful: Mafiascum Wiki
Someone provided it during the early stages of XXIV and so here it is in this one too.
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On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta
Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Woah boy. Activity is good for the town. The more stances mafia are forced to take the harder it is for them to hide later on in the game.
You may jsut be inexperienced, but my play so far has been extremely pro town in order to get people into the discussion.
To directly address your post, I'm shifting focus to get everyone posting. I don't know anyone who is mafia yet. I invite you to challenge my town read on Shady.
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On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) If it was not clear from my post, that's what I think too. However, looking at his filter it consists more or less entirely of oneliners. Admittedly they are all somewhat pro-town oneliners. We're also only a few hours into the game, but I called him out because he could probably have done a better job of encouraging that discussion.
My point, if I did not make it clear enough was the following post:On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote:
New players what do you think of my claim on shady? The claim that he is referring to is that he thinks Shady Sands is acting like he was in his previous game. This is something that I feel is not a good way to encourage someone new to join the discussion since as I pointed out, I do not feel that comparing meta is particularly easy. In fact, with only a game or two to go off, it's particularly informative or revealing either. Sure, if someone experienced really wants to take the time to compare metas, then don't let me stop you.
I stand by my argument however that it's not a good starting point for a beginner.
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Where is mkfuba? Why is he not posting?
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly.
I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us.
But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions.
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On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
So MkFuba was fairly active before the game started, then posts as soon as the game starts... then is silent when everyone is actually making cases--in spite of arguing for the benefits of active scumhunting.
His behavior thus far doesn't line up with what he's been arguing for.
Also, he's pushing for active night posting, which is kind of strange from a townie perspective. Townies usually don't think about day/night cycles in terms of activity.
And finally, his meta lines up with how he played when he rolled scum with me in the first half of XXIII, so, for now:
FoS mkfuba07
Reviewing the other cases posted, will add my reads on them after I get some work done.
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On August 24 2012 09:04 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up! :S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
This is in response to XXIV, where there was extremely little discussion N1. It may have been because we mislynched the most active poster (sorry about that XD), but that night was almost completely wasted as far as scumhunting goes. My post was basically an effort to remind the newer players that posting during the night is both allowed and encouraged, as well as a way to remind myself to keep up good posting habits throughout.
On August 24 2012 10:37 thrawn2112 wrote:
-snip-
I also wanna hear what mkfuba, kush, alsn, Spaghetticus, and Dandel Ion are thinking. More so mkfuba kush and spaghetti because dandel is sleeping and alsn already promised a post.
Yeah, my apologies. I couldn't fall asleep last night, so I was exhausted when I made my previous post and crashed right afterward. My posting will certainly pick up now.
On August 24 2012 11:55 Shady Sands wrote:
Where is mkfuba? Why is he not posting?
Well this is inconvenient timing for me to wake up XD
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
You can't apply what you would do if you yourself rolled scum to other scum behavior, except in a set of very limited circumstances (e.g. scum will usually never bus their scumbuddy on D1, barring an imminent townie-led lynch on their scumbuddy.)
Why do you think Lvdr is scum?
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Bugger I F5ed my post... Okay I'll start again...
@Kush
So in the few hours this game has been running I have somehow managed to both bandwagon and lurk? This seems brash considering how tentative you have seemed to want to be so far.
I have not bandwagoned. The extent of my contribution is having agreed with Scrawn's lurker policy, but also criticised it for being too conservative. I haven't had time to lurk, as afore mentioned I am a busy person who does not have time to sit on this thread all day and respond in real time to every comment. There is also very little to go on at the moment, just because I am not pretending to contribute does not mean that I am not going to actually contribute as soon as I have something to say.
Now looky here... I do have something to say!
I think Scrawn is doing a good job as town, this certainly does not mean he is beyond suspicion, but he has been fairly reasonable up until now.
I do however, disagree with Lvdr's assessment of Shady Sands. He has been very critical so far, but nothing he has said comes to mind as particularly proactive (I'll eat my word if he can give me a counter-example). In particular, his critique of Lvdr's comment:
filter
On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote:
'Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.'
He said:
'I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?'
This seems like empty criticism, as he almost seems to deliberately misinterpret the statement in order to give himself something to say. If Lvdr thinks we should lynch lurkers, but not give up actively scumhunting in order to do this, then it does not at all seem that he is suggesting these two things are mutually exclusive. Yet this is what Shady seems to suggest.
Furthermore, Lvdr has played with Shady before, and claims that Shady should by now have an idea of Lvdr's policy preference.
Soon afterwards, he had the following criticism of Fubu's post:
On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
'Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!'
He wrote:
':S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?'
This is an accurate criticism, but not particularly useful. IMO (and fubu feel free to step in and correct me) Fubu's post was poorly written and he mistakenly made his both a descriptive and prescriptive assertion: that we will all look for scum during the night and that we should all look for scum in the day and the night.
If my interpretation is correct, then this is a completely understandable mistake and speaks extremely little of some scummy motivation he may or may not have.
So far I have shown you two examples of what I believe are needlessly critical posts, that is: posts that are needlessly skeptical of things that will not help us catch scum. Now, as WeeTe has already mentioned, posting lots is generally attributed to town behaviour. However, posting lots of unproductive criticism seems like the sort of thing a scum would do to look like town but not contribute to the lynching of scum.
FoS Shady Sands
I would like to note that I am the first person to my knowledge that is acting against Shady, and IMO I am the first person to put up a decent reason to actually suspect anyone. I'm gonna get back to study, and I'll likely be unable to post for the next 11 hours, at which point I'll go through a read and post before heading to bed.
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Also, I would like to point out that kushm4sta has at least been right in one thing so far and it needs mentioning again. Spaghetticus has produced no content of his own whatsoever. This could of course be due to having daytime responsibilities(him being aussie and all) but I would like to see him take part in the discussions at some point soon.
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EBWOP: Hah, scratch that then. Gonna read what you've said.
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way.
What do you think about my read on lvdr?
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide.
Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that.
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed:
On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite.
And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
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Oh and I apologise for the quoting format of that last post, I'll need to play around with the forum tools in order to make it more easily readable. Both of my quotes were of Shady's quote criticisms, so I have pasted in the quote he was criticising, then added his response underneath in both cases. Once again, my apologies
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On August 24 2012 12:09 Spaghetticus wrote:Oh and I apologise for the quoting format of that last post, I'll need to play around with the forum tools in order to make it more easily readable. Both of my quotes were of Shady's quote criticisms, so I have pasted in the quote he was criticising, then added his response underneath in both cases. Once again, my apologies No worries!
Actually I find some of your analysis intriguing and while I'm not as eager to suspect Shady Sands had any other intention than spur on some healthy conversation I would like to make it known that I'm backing you up on wanting an explanation.
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Spaghetticus please repost your case with proper quote formatting. It will make reading it much more straight forward.
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This is a repost of my case against Shady Sands.
I hope I'm using the tags correctly now... As I will probably be unable to respond to any criticism immediately for the next 10.5 hours, it would be lovely if any comments directed at me could be made quite salient. I'll be tired when I get home and deciphering pages and pages of text can be difficult without cues.
@Kush
So in the few hours this game has been running I have somehow managed to both bandwagon and lurk? This seems brash considering how tentative you have seemed to want to be so far.
I have not bandwagoned. The extent of my contribution is having agreed with Scrawn's lurker policy, but also criticised it for being too conservative. I haven't had time to lurk, as afore mentioned I am a busy person who does not have time to sit on this thread all day and respond in real time to every comment. There is also very little to go on at the moment, just because I am not pretending to contribute does not mean that I am not going to actually contribute as soon as I have something to say.
Now looky here... I do have something to say!
I think Scrawn is doing a good job as town, this certainly does not mean he is beyond suspicion, but he has been fairly reasonable up until now.
I do however, disagree with Lvdr's assessment of Shady Sands. He has been very critical so far, but nothing he has said comes to mind as particularly proactive (I'll eat my word if he can give me a counter-example). In particular, his critique of Lvdr's comment:
filter
On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote:
Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.
He said:
I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?
This seems like empty criticism, as he almost seems to deliberately misinterpret the statement in order to give himself something to say. If Lvdr thinks we should lynch lurkers, but not give up actively scumhunting in order to do this, then it does not at all seem that he is suggesting these two things are mutually exclusive. Yet this is what Shady seems to suggest.
Furthermore, Lvdr has played with Shady before, and claims that Shady should by now have an idea of Lvdr's policy preference.
Soon afterwards, he had the following criticism of Fubu's post:
On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
He wrote:
:S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
This is an accurate criticism, but not particularly useful. IMO (and fubu feel free to step in and correct me) Fubu's post was poorly written and he mistakenly made his both a descriptive and prescriptive assertion: that we will all look for scum during the day and the night and that we should all look for scum in the day and the night.
If my interpretation is correct, then this is a completely understandable mistake and speaks extremely little of some scummy motivation he may or may not have.
So far I have shown you two examples of what I believe are needlessly critical posts, that is: posts that are needlessly skeptical of things that will not help us catch scum. Now, as WeeTe has already mentioned, posting lots is generally attributed to town behaviour. However, posting lots of unproductive criticism seems like the sort of thing a scum would do to look like town but not contribute to the lynching of scum.
FoS Shady Sands
I would like to note that I am the first person to my knowledge that is acting against Shady, and IMO I am the first person to put up a decent reason to actually suspect anyone. I'm gonna get back to study, and I'll likely be unable to post for the next 11 hours, at which point I'll go through a read and post before heading to bed.
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
Yes, my first post was policy. That's pretty much how every game starts off. Then my second post was responding to a direct question from Shady, as well as explaining why I was apparently lurking. The only thing I consider fluff is the last bit, and for that I'll apologize. When the game's just started I tend to be more liberal with what I will comment on, and the fact that Shady called me out right when I was about to post a response was entertaining.
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Shady has been accused of intentionally misinterpreting things before, but it has happened a lot when he is town. However, def is a point worth paying attention to.
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS: MKFUBA
##FOS:Kushm4sta
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On August 24 2012 12:54 Lvdr wrote:
Shady has been accused of intentionally misinterpreting things before, but it has happened a lot when he is town. However, def is a point worth paying attention to.
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS: MKFUBA
##FOS:Kushm4sta
I agree with the FOS on kush and your meta read on shady but I really want to get some actual reads from mkfuba before deciding on him.
As far as kush goes, my suspicion on him goes beyond the "85% sure" post. I want to see his answer to this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
and this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. What do you think about my read on lvdr? Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed: Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite. And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
Also, I'm sure we're all eagerly awaiting dandel lon's 2nd post.
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On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
He knows they are townies because he is mafia is what I mean. Mafia knows who is mafia and who is townies. Therefore, lvdr is trying to get me lynched because he knows I'm a townie. Also I know the quality of my posts have been pretty shit, because I am new and terrible at this game maybe, but I don't see how the poor quality of my posts makes me a suspect for mafia. It just makes me easier to read if anything IMO.
But let me give you a little peak into lvdrs mind right now. He thinks, ok who is a townie i can easily target. Ah kush said some dumb shit so everyone will agree with me to get rid of him.
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@kush
something I learned D1 of my first game was just because someone is wrongly accusing you doesn't mean that they're scum
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Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
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On August 24 2012 13:21 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
What is your read on me? I'm questioning you quite a bit, does that make me scum? If you post some, as you said, "dumb shit" then people are definitely going to wonder about it.
Did you read my thoughts on alsn's description of lvdr? I think my explanation makes sense given that the point of the game is scumhunting, and asking people for their reads is part of scumhunting.
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
If you're town just know that it's no hard feelings in any way.... sometimes in this game people will accuse you of stuff and then you will have to defend yourself. You just gotta make sure and not do stuff like assign "arbitrary" percentages to your reads because people will want to know the reasons behind the arbitrary numbers.
I'd still like you to give a response to what you think about my read on Lvdr.
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On August 24 2012 13:17 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum? He knows they are townies because he is mafia is what I mean. Mafia knows who is mafia and who is townies. Therefore, lvdr is trying to get me lynched because he knows I'm a townie. Also I know the quality of my posts have been pretty shit, because I am new and terrible at this game maybe, but I don't see how the poor quality of my posts makes me a suspect for mafia. It just makes me easier to read if anything IMO. But let me give you a little peak into lvdrs mind right now. He thinks, ok who is a townie i can easily target. Ah kush said some dumb shit so everyone will agree with me to get rid of him.
Well you made a pretty strong statement. 85% scum after a few hours into D1 is something you have to back up with more than simply WIFOM.
On August 24 2012 13:21 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
What part of Alsn's post was most convincing for you? What you said indicated a strong scum read, and I don't get a similar read from Alsn's post. As a side note, just remember that nothing you say in regard to scumhunting should be said arbitrarily. This isn't an accusation, just a suggestion for the rest of your play.
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@WeeTee
I'd like to hear from you more. I think there's enough to at least comment on the various reads that people have made. Are there any you agree with? Disagree with? Do you think any are contrived or have ulterior motives? So far I have a null read on you, but the longer you refrain from posting the more suspicious it becomes.
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EBWOP: I used WIFOM incorrectly. What I meant to say was "85% scum after a few hours into D1 is something you have to back up with more than scum motivation that can be applied to anyone."
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thrawn:
What i think about your read on Lvdr is possibly you are also mafia and you are protecting him.
I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. You are playing the role of the townsperson in order to protect yourself except you are going overboard and acting as if you are the super townsperson. Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion. That in itself should be suspect.
Your read on alvar is essentially that he is doing the same thing as everyone else. But he is making new people write stuff so that he can accuse them. What do I think about this random complicated meta? How the hell should I know. I dont even know how to check that stuff. Oh and who agrees with his meta theories, it's you.
Good cop bad cop type thing going on here. Except you're not cops your mafia.
##FOS:thrawn2112
##FOS:lvdr
And please don't think that Im mafia beaucse I'm spreading confusion or whatever. I know no one is going to agree with me but I just want to be able to say I told you so when these two guys who are clearly working together end up being the mafia.
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On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote:
thrawn:
What i think about your read on Lvdr is possibly you are also mafia and you are protecting him.
I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. You are playing the role of the townsperson in order to protect yourself except you are going overboard and acting as if you are the super townsperson. Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion. That in itself should be suspect.
Your read on alvar is essentially that he is doing the same thing as everyone else. But he is making new people write stuff so that he can accuse them. What do I think about this random complicated meta? How the hell should I know. I dont even know how to check that stuff. Oh and who agrees with his meta theories, it's you.
Good cop bad cop type thing going on here. Except you're not cops your mafia.
##FOS:thrawn2112
##FOS:lvdr
And please don't think that Im mafia beaucse I'm spreading confusion or whatever. I know no one is going to agree with me but I just want to be able to say I told you so when these two guys who are clearly working together end up being the mafia.
Wha... I don't... Your reasoning for him being scum is that he's clearly the strongest townsperson? That will never work out for him in the long run. An active scum will talk a lot but say very little. If that's what you think he's doing, then provide the evidence for it. Where's the fluff, the wishy-washiness, the subtle assertions without outright stating his reads? Saying he's the "best townsperson so far" is different than saying he's the most active person so far.
And please don't think that Im mafia beaucse I'm spreading confusion or whatever. I know no one is going to agree with me but I just want to be able to say I told you so when these two guys who are clearly working together end up being the mafia.
If you actually think they're both scum (which you evidently do since you've FoS'd and want to say "I told you so" when they flip red) then you have to state the reasoning that you believe they're scum before you start looking at their actions from a scum perspective. Anyone's actions in the game right now can be construed as scum motivated. You already know that, since you defend yourself in the first sentence of this quote. I've defended Thrawn; what does that do to your scum defending each other argument?
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On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote:
thrawn:
What i think about your read on Lvdr is possibly you are also mafia and you are protecting him.
So in other words, you didn't think about my read because I am guilty by association with Lvdr, who is guilty for accusing you. Guilt by association is a pretty weak accusation to make with the limited interaction that's happened so far, and calling someone guilty because they accused me is a path I went down my first D1 in a mafia game and I ended up lynching a townie.
On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote: I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. You are playing the role of the townsperson in order to protect yourself except you are going overboard and acting as if you are the super townsperson. Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion. That in itself should be suspect.
"Fact: you are the best townsperson so far, in terms of questioning people and intiating discussion" therefore I'm probably mafia? I don't see how that is the most logical explanation and I think it's confirmation bias caused by your unfair association case against me.
On August 24 2012 13:49 kushm4sta wrote:Your read on alvar is essentially that he is doing the same thing as everyone else. But he is making new people write stuff so that he can accuse them. What do I think about this random complicated meta? How the hell should I know. I dont even know how to check that stuff. Oh and who agrees with his meta theories, it's you.
Good cop bad cop type thing going on here. Except you're not cops your mafia.
##FOS:thrawn2112
##FOS:lvdr
And please don't think that Im mafia beaucse I'm spreading confusion or whatever. I know no one is going to agree with me but I just want to be able to say I told you so when these two guys who are clearly working together end up being the mafia.
Ok think about what lvdr said... he asked people who hadn't given a single read yet for their reads. How is this unreasonable and not a vital part of scumhunting? I see why you think he might be bullying on the new people because his post specifically called them out, but to be fair it was mostly the new people who weren't contributing at that time.
Your accusation of lvdr is very similar to a bad lynch I caused for a townie in NMMXXIV so I can accept your motivation as being similar to my own during that game. I'm going to back off for now because of that, but don't expect me to allow you to make cases you are certain about without giving good reasons supporting them.
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Alright, I'm back.
Very pleased with the activity levels so far
Gonna read the thread in detail now.
But first:
@thrawn: Concerning this post of yours: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=5#88
Do you still want my answer? I can clarify what I meant np, but the topic of lurkers seems almost redundant judging by the amount of posts. Just toss me a quick yes or no.
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On August 24 2012 14:16 Dandel Ion wrote:Alright, I'm back. Very pleased with the activity levels so far Gonna read the thread in detail now. But first: @thrawn: Concerning this post of yours: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=5#88Do you still want my answer? I can clarify what I meant np, but the topic of lurkers seems almost redundant judging by the amount of posts. Just toss me a quick yes or no.
Yeah go ahead plz, but I'd rather hear your thoughts on everything else that's happened. Just to clarify my stance on the lurker policy... I'd rather vote for a scum candidate but if there are none or we can't agree on a good one then a lurker lynch is the next best option.
And yeah, the activity so far has been a lot better than my first game so I'm optimistic that hardcore lurking won't be an issue as long as we don't start slacking on pressuring people to post.
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I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far, every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view, it has sparked a lot of conversation, I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments.
That being said, while there has been some analysis of other posters, I would love it if we could stop focusing on kushm4sta for now. This in order to make sure people who hasn't contributed much yet are grilled about it, and that we make sure there is more than a single person being attacked.
I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours.
So, in conclusion, please stop the tunnelvisioning on kushm4sta for now and let's see if we can't find something else to talk about for a while too. After all, there's a lot of time left before lynch.
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On August 24 2012 15:00 Alsn wrote:I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far, every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view, it has sparked a lot of conversation, I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments. That being said, while there has been some analysis of other posters, I would love it if we could stop focusing on kushm4sta for now. This in order to make sure people who hasn't contributed much yet are grilled about it, and that we make sure there is more than a single person being attacked. I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours. So, in conclusion, please stop the tunnelvisioning on kushm4sta for now and let's see if we can't find something else to talk about for a while too. After all, there's a lot of time left before lynch.
That was the work I was talking about. Got the email with a request to do some on the ground research about it =)
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EBWOP: My first paragraph is very jumbled, please consider the comma after "conversation" a period. Or read this: + Show Spoiler +I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view. It has however sparked a lot of conversation. I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments.
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Hi all, sorry for not regularly posting I have Uni commitments and such.
I have read through the current content, and every ones filters.
It seems to me that everyone has taken a disliking to
kushm4sta's quote
"Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him."
Even for a newbie like me I was like ....
But I think that a real scum wouldn't reveal information in this clumsy manner and I know i'm not directing any suspicion there as kush is too easy of a target to pick off.
I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down.
On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already? I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta
I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
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On August 24 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote:That was the work I was talking about. Got the email with a request to do some on the ground research about it =) Haha, ok, I forgive you.
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On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:
I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious? First I would like to point out that I have not been the only one to criticize kush as you claim, several people jumped on the bandwagon(for good reason, I might add) when he first started accusing people.
I would also like you to see my latest post where I explicitly say that we should stop worrying about kush for now as I think it's taking up too much of our attention. I have every intention of forgiving kush's mistakes, if he can start acting like that's what they are, instead of coming up with convoluted explanations as to why he feels the way he does.
If you do not consider my latest post on kush to satisfy your suspicions against me, could you explain to me why that is?
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On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:Hi all, sorry for not regularly posting I have Uni commitments and such. I have read through the current content, and every ones filters. It seems to me that everyone has taken a disliking to kushm4sta's quote "Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him." Even for a newbie like me I was like .... But I think that a real scum wouldn't reveal information in this clumsy manner and I know i'm not directing any suspicion there as kush is too easy of a target to pick off. I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already? I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta I will put a FoS on Alsn for this But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way. Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush, Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out? and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
Why did you pick Alsn out of the people who were supsicious of kush? lvdr put a FOS on kush after Alsn did, and lvdr's case against kush was only composed of:
On August 24 2012 12:54 Lvdr wrote:
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS:Kushm4sta
whereas Alsn's case was much more thorough:
On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town.
You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument.
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta
What is your read on lvdr?
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@Alsn
I like you response verrry smooth.
I must have started writing before you posted so sorry for that.
Are you willing to say that kush is in the clear then? or do you think there is something underlying still?
I guess throwing around FoS can mean next to nothing, especially if you change your mind so fast.
I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target.
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Ugh, deleted everything...
@trawn:
I did NOT try to suggest we just pick a random lurker and lynch him for the hell of it
I DID suggest that somebody that is scummy AND lurky should imo take higher lynch-priority than somebody who's "just" scummy.
This is of course within the bounds of reason: If somebody is really really active, but makes several scumslips, I'm not gonna propose we lynch a kinda-scummy lurker.
As stated, we probably won't have a lurker issue (most likely thanks to the small 9-person setup), so this is kinda obsolete.
@Alsn:On August 24 2012 15:00 Alsn wrote:I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours.
I think it's not generally well-recieved in mafia to argue by using a players activity in the rest of TL. Afair it's not explicitly forbidden in this very game, but it's still a bad argument, and you shouldn't use it.
@WeeTeeOn August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:
Hi all, sorry for not regularly posting I have Uni commitments and such.
I have read through the current content, and every ones filters.
It seems to me that everyone has taken a disliking to
kushm4sta's quote
"Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him."
Even for a newbie like me I was like ....
But I think that a real scum wouldn't reveal information in this clumsy manner and I know i'm not directing any suspicion there as kush is too easy of a target to pick off.
I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down.
[...]
I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
You say you read the thread and everyone's filters.
Then you state that Alsn is the only one that called out kush?
You clearly have either: A) not read the thread B) not understood what's happening. Both are not good signs.
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On August 24 2012 15:22 WeeTee wrote:
@Alsn
I like you response verrry smooth.
I must have started writing before you posted so sorry for that.
Are you willing to say that kush is in the clear then? or do you think there is something underlying still?
I guess throwing around FoS can mean next to nothing, especially if you change your mind so fast.
I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target. I do not mean that my suspicion against kush has gone away, I am still not satisfied with his defense against my concerns about his posting.
What I mean is that it is harmful for town if we keep arguing back and forth about kush and do not discuss anyone else. This because if it turns out that noone else is scummy, and we lynch him and he turns out to be town and just wasnt defending himself very well, we will be back at square one, except with 5 town against 2 scum(scum will undoubtely kill a townie during night 1). If at that point the only thing we have done is attack someone that had a hard time defending himself, we would have almost no usable information at all to try and find out who is scum and who isnt.
Thus, I just want us to all agree that kush needs to get his act together but that we need to start talking about something/someone else too.
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On August 24 2012 15:24 Dandel Ion wrote:I think it's not generally well-recieved in mafia to argue by using a players activity in the rest of TL. Afair it's not explicitly forbidden in this very game, but it's still a bad argument, and you shouldn't use it. Alright, point taken, I'll refrain from it in the future. I just found the timing of their postings to be a bit weird as their posts were within a few minutes of each other. In retrospect and checking out that other thread I now realize he wasn't intentionally saying nothing here, he was simply not reading.
My point however wasn't so much the inactivity as the fact that I would still like to see him respond to Spaghetticus.
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Leaders be leaders.
@dandel
I'm not interested in your negativity. I'm simply making my point.
My first quote had my message
"I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down."
I see my mistake in saying "the only one that chirped up", which thrawn just pointed out.
please disregard that comment.
Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick.
Super encouraging.
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EBWOP: Just to clarify, by "their posts" I meant Shady posting at 12:02 and Spaghetticus posting at 12:03 with a FoS towards Shady.
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On August 24 2012 12:34 Spaghetticus wrote:... I do however, disagree with Lvdr's assessment of Shady Sands. He has been very critical so far, but nothing he has said comes to mind as particularly proactive (I'll eat my word if he can give me a counter-example). In particular, his critique of Lvdr's comment: filter On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote: Show nested quote +Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game. He said: Show nested quote +I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How? This seems like empty criticism, as he almost seems to deliberately misinterpret the statement in order to give himself something to say. If Lvdr thinks we should lynch lurkers, but not give up actively scumhunting in order to do this, then it does not at all seem that he is suggesting these two things are mutually exclusive. Yet this is what Shady seems to suggest. Furthermore, Lvdr has played with Shady before, and claims that Shady should by now have an idea of Lvdr's policy preference. Soon afterwards, he had the following criticism of Fubu's post: On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote: Show nested quote +Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
He wrote: Show nested quote +:S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well? This is an accurate criticism, but not particularly useful. IMO (and fubu feel free to step in and correct me) Fubu's post was poorly written and he mistakenly made his both a descriptive and prescriptive assertion: that we will all look for scum during the day and the night and that we should all look for scum in the day and the night. If my interpretation is correct, then this is a completely understandable mistake and speaks extremely little of some scummy motivation he may or may not have. So far I have shown you two examples of what I believe are needlessly critical posts, that is: posts that are needlessly skeptical of things that will not help us catch scum. Now, as WeeTe has already mentioned, posting lots is generally attributed to town behaviour. However, posting lots of unproductive criticism seems like the sort of thing a scum would do to look like town but not contribute to the lynching of scum. FoS Shady Sands I would like to note that I am the first person to my knowledge that is acting against Shady, and IMO I am the first person to put up a decent reason to actually suspect anyone. I'm gonna get back to study, and I'll likely be unable to post for the next 11 hours, at which point I'll go through a read and post before heading to bed.
On accusing Lvdr: I saw a policy disagreement developing in the thread--between leaning towards lurker lynching versus scumhunting--and I wanted to make sure Lvdr wasn't trying to unfairly equivocate on it. basically, in questions of policy, if someone posts on it, the post should have a clear preference one way or another so that we can judge their later play against their policy prefs--or combine them in such a way to have a clear lean in terms of policy, again, so we can judge their later play against their earlier view on policy. Lvdr's post didn't do that--it just balanced between the two while also saying they were different. I personally feel the two should be balanced but combined, so I wanted to see if Lvdr wanted to keep the two parts separate.
On Fuba: most of my doubts on Fuba have gone away by now, but at the time, I thought that Fuba's emphasis on night activity itself is scummy. Scum have greater power to use and abuse the thread than town does at night, so encouraging heavy activity at night without saying daytime activity is more important hands an edge to scum. But given that was his first post I didn't want to push him too hard on it.
Now, moving to Kush:
Kush is running the classic "bad townie" defense. It's an argument where the poster says:
1) I am a bad townie
2) People are just targeting me because I'm a bad townie, and hence easy to lynch
3) Those people must be targeting me because I'm easy, and not because they actually think I'm scum
4) Because those people aren't targeting me because I'm scum, then they must be trying to trick town
5) They must be scum.
This is a really bad defense because every links 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 are all not 100% airtight. Hence Kush's entire defense, to me, is a wash--it neither makes him look scummier, nor makes him look like more of a townie. If Kush keeps posting like this, though, then I'm probably going to vote him because my initial read will be unchanged. But if Kush decides to start posting coherent, long cases backed by logic instead of OMGUS, then I might change my mind.
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Alsn I totally agree,
Id love to see where the discussion goes over the next few hour because i'm not convinced on anyone as of yet.
We need some new POI.
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On August 24 2012 15:27 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 15:22 WeeTee wrote:
@Alsn
I like you response verrry smooth.
I must have started writing before you posted so sorry for that.
Are you willing to say that kush is in the clear then? or do you think there is something underlying still?
I guess throwing around FoS can mean next to nothing, especially if you change your mind so fast.
I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target. I do not mean that my suspicion against kush has gone away, I am still not satisfied with his defense against my concerns about his posting. What I mean is that it is harmful for town if we keep arguing back and forth about kush and do not discuss anyone else. This because if it turns out that noone else is scummy, and we lynch him and he turns out to be town and just wasnt defending himself very well, we will be back at square one, except with 5 town against 2 scum(scum will undoubtely kill a townie during night 1). If at that point the only thing we have done is attack someone that had a hard time defending himself, we would have almost no usable information at all to try and find out who is scum and who isnt. Thus, I just want us to all agree that kush needs to get his act together but that we need to start talking about something/someone else too.
This is quite true. Kush sucks up more town energy than he provides. He'd be an ideal target for a vigi shot but not one town should waste time trying to lynch over and above all other lynch candidates.
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There are no Vigis though?
According to OP, it's just cop + JK that are possible.
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On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick.
Super encouraging. WeeTee, I think you are misunderstanding a major point here. Pointing out inconsistencies in arguments is the name of the game(or one of the names anyway). Without being allowed to do so, noone can be held accountable for anything. It is your own responsibility that your posts be clear, clean and unambigous such that there are no misunderstandings. More importantly, it is in the towns best interest that you take great care that your arguments are strong and valid. Without it, you will only spread confusion which is most definitely good for scum.
So just like I tried to articulate towards kush, you need to start considering your words better, without that being an excuse to post less. Without everyone trying their damndest to form clear and concise arguments, it will be very easy for scum to blend in.
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On August 24 2012 15:41 Dandel Ion wrote:
There are no Vigis though?
According to OP, it's just cop + JK that are possible.
Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him.
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On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:
I see my mistake in saying "the only one that chirped up", which thrawn just pointed out.
please disregard that comment.
....
I don't much care if you think I'm a dick for saying this, but please think about your posts BEFORE you post them.
Going all "woe is me" and lamenting is not going to change your filter.
For the record, I don't really see what you said as a scumslip right now, and I have no intentions of tunneling an argument for all of day 1 again + Show Spoiler +see NMM XXIII if you want to know what I mean. I argued endlessly with a guy that took my critizism as a personal attack and we ended up OMGUS'ing each other endlessly.
I'm gonna let your poor wording rest for now, since I don't want to argue with somebody I don't have a good scumread on. That doesn't help anybody.
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On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:
Leaders be leaders.
@dandel
I'm not interested in your negativity. I'm simply making my point.
My first quote had my message
"I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down."
I see my mistake in saying "the only one that chirped up", which thrawn just pointed out.
please disregard that comment.
Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick.
Super encouraging.
You say it was a mistake for accusing Alsn of being "the only one that chirped up," so I guess we have to leave it at that. But we don't disregard comments.
Once again:
On August 24 2012 15:20 thrawn2112 wrote:
What is your read on lvdr?
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Alsn I see the err of my ways. noted.
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Okay, I'm going to go to bed for now. When I wake up, I'll make a decision on what to do with Kush, then push a real case based on the posts in the thread.
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Alright I'm tired. See you guys when I wake up, and WeeTee I still want that read from you.
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Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me.
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On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me.
Why are you claiming blue already? It's a bit early, especially considering nobody actually voted for you yet. Several people have also just recently expressed that it would most likely be better to look at other people for the time being.
Please explain to me why you claimed now. Because sadly, right now I'm not inclined to believe you.
Also, in claims it usually helps believability to have a breadcrumb. Did you make one?
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Marvellosity has asked me to remind you that he is offering his coaching services to any townies wanting coaching.
Also, PM me or Keir if you still need an Obs QT link.
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Just woke up, checking thread.
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Alright, finished reading through this. There are two things that jump out to me as scummy.
1) Lvdr
He goes into the thread, asks questions to generate discussion, accuses someone of fluff, and then leaves after FoSing the fluffy poster (mkfuba) and the obvious lynch (kush). This behavior is inconsistent: why push so hard for scumhunting and activity, but then disappear (and leave himself plenty of outs) once the shooting starts? Answer: because, if he is scum, this is exactly what he wants to do: stir up discussion, and then be the second or third person to hop on a mislynch wagon.
On top of that, I know what he's capable of in terms of scumhunting and making votes based on reasoned cases. So far, he hasn't lived up to that. Because of both reasons,
FoS Lvdr
2) Kush
His JK claim doesn't add up. There's no breadcrumb involved at all. There are now two possibilities:
a) He's JK and he honestly is scared that town is going to mislynch him. In this case, why claim so quickly, instead of dropping a breadcrumb with that post and then claiming later?
b) He's scum who knows he's going to get lynched anyhow, and is trying to bait the real JK into counter-claiming to at least take down a blue with him.
As far as I'm concerned, option b) is more likely, so If you are the real JK please do not counter-claim. We had a similar blatant fakeclaim in XXII, and there the real doctor didn't counter-claim and eventually used the fakeclaim to figure out the other 2 scum.
Furthermore, in addition to the likely fakeclaim, Kush hasn't used his posts to make a single case against anyone, in spite of people repeatedly asking him to do that. That's icing on the cake.
## Vote KushM4sta
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I see the viewcount increasing on the sidebar but the post count staying the same. I know you guys are lurking this thread. Come out and post.
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I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense.
@kush
If you are town, stop the current path you're going down. You've crossed over from overly-defensive into anti-town defensive play. If you're town, PM marv and get some help. I'm not voting for you yet, and I bet others aren't going to vote for you just yet either. You can pull yourself out of this hole you've dug, but you need to change your methods. Ask marv about any of the things you've done that we've jumped down your throat for and find out why we reacted that way.
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On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense.
@kush
If you are town, stop the current path you're going down. You've crossed over from overly-defensive into anti-town defensive play. If you're town, PM marv and get some help. I'm not voting for you yet, and I bet others aren't going to vote for you just yet either. You can pull yourself out of this hole you've dug, but you need to change your methods. Ask marv about any of the things you've done that we've jumped down your throat for and find out why we reacted that way.
What's your top scumread then?
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On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense.
That actually is a decent point.
But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending.
But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell..
I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part.
But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.
I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo.
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On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me.
For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes.
So on that point, who do you think is scum and why?
Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post.
Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it?
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On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other.
should say "Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely but I don't have a reason to believe one or the other
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On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo.
First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
Furthermore, I don't get why on one hand you understand how mkfuba can see the claim as a town-tell but on the other hand act completely confused about kush.
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On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes. So on that point, who do you think is scum and why? Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post. Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it?
How can you ignore the JK claim? Either way, it's a play of some sort, and the most significant thing to happen in the thread so far.
Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower?
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On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
You would rather the town ignore kush and instead talk about lvdr yet you voted for kush and put a FOS on lvdr? Could you clarify what you meant by "more substantial?"
And yeah I'm still looking at your case against lvdr, going through his filter now.
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On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo. First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr. Furthermore, I don't get why on one hand you understand how mkfuba can see the claim as a town-tell but on the other hand act completely confused about kush.
No, that's something different.
I'm confused about why kush would claim JK NOW.
see this post of mine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=10#192
I said I understand why mkfuba thinks kush being "alone" is a town tell to him. I disagree, as I said, but it can be a valid point, and I'll keep it in mind.
Note that what I talked about:
On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense.
Does not have anything to do with his JK claim. It's about his overall play, and that's what I addressed.
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At the moment it's actually Lvdr. He's focusing a lot on how Shady is town which, while useful if it can be proven, isn't nearly as helpful as scumhunting. And the only people who I feel can be confident in a town read at this moment are those who know who all of the townies are. He's been asking the new players, who have no experience playing with Shady before, what they think about his meta read on Shady. I wouldn't expect much out of that course of discussion. He also ended up FoS'ing me after my response to this post:
without commenting on my response in any way. Was my response not enough? Was it the straw that broke the camel's back? He says he wants to hear more from me and then ignores what I've said. Here's a copy of my response in case anyone wants to read it:+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Yes, my first post was policy. That's pretty much how every game starts off. Then my second post was responding to a direct question from Shady, as well as explaining why I was apparently lurking. The only thing I consider fluff is the last bit, and for that I'll apologize. When the game's just started I tend to be more liberal with what I will comment on, and the fact that Shady called me out right when I was about to post a response was entertaining.
I'm also always suspicious of people who point out how pro-town they're being, which he's done outright once, and subtley twice. He emphasizes how he's promoting discussion, which is a pro-town action, but all of the discussion is about town reads that will reveal far less in the future than scum reads will. Essentially, all he's said so far is "I lynch lurkers. Shady seems town. Discuss how Shady seems town. I'm pro-town. Kush is suspicious because he said 85%. Fuba scumhunt!" He's actually said very little about anything at all, aside from a town read on Shady that a townie wouldn't be very confident of.
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On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:
Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower?
EBWOP @ this part:
Yes, i think it's better to wait for his explanation/reads.
I think we have enough time in day 1 to hear what he has to say. I don't plan on just ignoring that.
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On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes. So on that point, who do you think is scum and why? Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post. Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it? How can you ignore the JK claim? Either way, it's a play of some sort, and the most significant thing to happen in the thread so far.
Yeah it is the most interesting thing said so far but I it matches both positions taken against him in this thread. You yourself pointed out the town/scum reasons for him to claim JK but I disagree that the JK claim is more likely to be either a town/scum motivation. Of course a scum player might fake roleclaim but some people including myself can see it as him just playing poorly. I'm ignoring it for now because it doesn't tip me off in any direction more than the other.
On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower?
Are you really saying that we shouldn't allow him the opportunity to make cases? The best thing an accused player could do is to show that they are scumhunting.
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On August 25 2012 02:26 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
You would rather the town ignore kush and instead talk about lvdr yet you voted for kush and put a FOS on lvdr? Could you clarify what you meant by "more substantial?" And yeah I'm still looking at your case against lvdr, going through his filter now.
I'll reiterate:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense?
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On August 25 2012 02:37 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes. So on that point, who do you think is scum and why? Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post. Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it? How can you ignore the JK claim? Either way, it's a play of some sort, and the most significant thing to happen in the thread so far. Yeah it is the most interesting thing said so far but I it matches both positions taken against him in this thread. You yourself pointed out the town/scum reasons for him to claim JK but I disagree that the JK claim is more likely to be either a town/scum motivation. Of course a scum player might fake roleclaim but some people including myself can see it as him just playing poorly. I'm ignoring it for now because it doesn't tip me off in any direction more than the other. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower? Are you really saying that we shouldn't allow him the opportunity to make cases? The best thing an accused player could do is to show that they are scumhunting.
Sorry, I was just a little peeved that we offered Kush two chances to shape up his posting and he hasn't taken either of them.
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Just to clarify my stance on Kush, since the two options that I can see are bad townie or scum, I see his actions to this point as bad townie. What has he done that is actually scummy? He's exhibiting all the signs of a newbie getting focused and desperately trying to save himself. I've seen it in every game I've played so far. They get called out on something, they take it too seriously. This is followed up by a WIFOM-y or OMGUS-y reaction that they then get pounded on for.
The one thing that I would like him to respond to for sure is why he roleclaimed.
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EBWOP: Add to the end "Until I see that, I'm not commenting on kush anymore."
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On August 25 2012 02:53 mkfuba07 wrote:
EBWOP: Add to the end "Until I see that, I'm not commenting on kush anymore."
Duly noted.
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lvdr
His first 4 posts are about lurker policy. Nothing to see there, policy talk is pretty much standard.
On August 24 2012 09:20 Lvdr wrote:
Right now my eyes are on Kush and WeeTee. Yes it is their first games, but thats no excuse to just sheep onto others ideas. Get out there! Don't use your newbiness as an excuse!
People have said this post is suspicious, but it happened right after this post:
On August 24 2012 09:14 Shady Sands wrote:
Ok Lvdr, you were the last one in, and I know you're an experienced player, so I'm going to ask you for a scum read now. Who do you read as scummy based on their posts so far, and why?
Shady asked lvdr to give scumreads, right there on the spot. What lvdr said about kush and weetee was completely valid. Based on what had been said in the thread so far it was perfectly reasonable to suspect kush/weetee of not contributing, because they weren't. I think it was kush who actually referenced this post of looking suspicious but on its own and in context of shady's question it seems completely reasonable.
Now on to shady's points, which I think are actually quite good:
On August 24 2012 23:33 Shady Sands wrote:
He goes into the thread, asks questions to generate discussion, accuses someone of fluff, and then leaves after FoSing the fluffy poster (mkfuba) and the obvious lynch (kush). This behavior is inconsistent: why push so hard for scumhunting and activity, but then disappear (and leave himself plenty of outs) once the shooting starts? Answer: because, if he is scum, this is exactly what he wants to do: stir up discussion, and then be the second or third person to hop on a mislynch wagon.
On top of that, I know what he's capable of in terms of scumhunting and making votes based on reasoned cases. So far, he hasn't lived up to that. Because of both reasons,
FoS Lvdr
During the time that lvdr was posting, I did not suspect him of being scum. I actually got a town vibe from him because he was one of the few people asking for reads and opinions. But the thing that sticks out to me as scummy behavior is what shady pointed out... his sudden disappearance after FOS'ing kush for the 85% post. I agreed with the FOS but I dont think a FOS is justifiable because of one specific post. He made the FOS and after that many other people joined in on the kush bandwagon, but lvdr himself didn't add anything else to the discussion. I find it hard to believe that a town lvdr would make his first FOS, and then afk from the thread and so I'm going to say that lvdr and weetee are my current top scumreads. (weetee for making shitty posts and repeatedly ignoring my questions)
What I would like to see from lvdr:
- his current scumread and a case to go along with it
- what he thinks about his FOS suspects (weetee and kush)
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Everyone has to sleep you know. I can't patrol the thread 24/7.
That being said, I have some reads to provide:
@Kush I think the JK claim sounds very honest to me and it fits perfectly with the bad-townie' vibe.
So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad?
I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia.
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me.
These are only a few selections from kush's filter. Overall it reads as someone who hasn't played this style of mafia before. The suspicion of leadership is understandable, but poor play. The JK claim falls in to the same category: understandable based on the clear desperation in kush's posting, but fundamentally the bad play of a newbie that is struggling. Therefore:
1. I don't think Kush should be a D1 lynch target.
2. Kush is not a confirmed townie and should still be 'watched'.
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
##FOS Shady
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On August 25 2012 04:21 Lvdr wrote:Everyone has to sleep you know. I can't patrol the thread 24/7. That being said, I have some reads to provide: @Kush I think the JK claim sounds very honest to me and it fits perfectly with the bad-townie' vibe. Show nested quote +So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad? Show nested quote +I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. Show nested quote +Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. These are only a few selections from kush's filter. Overall it reads as someone who hasn't played this style of mafia before. The suspicion of leadership is understandable, but poor play. The JK claim falls in to the same category: understandable based on the clear desperation in kush's posting, but fundamentally the bad play of a newbie that is struggling. Therefore: 1. I don't think Kush should be a D1 lynch target. 2. Kush is not a confirmed townie and should still be 'watched'. @shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie. ##FOS Shady
What happened to your other FoS suspects?
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Why fos on shady? You haven't said anything that makes send why you'd you go from your "shady is town because he's matching his town meta" to an fos.
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@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read.
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Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else.
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On August 25 2012 04:41 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read.
Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
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On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else.
This is suspicious to me. We certainly shouldn't focus on one person (kush) if he's not scummy, but we shouldn't be FoS'ing everyone. At this point we actually want to be narrowing down our discussions so that we're not pressed a few hours before vote time. Casting a wide net of suspicion is what mafia want, so they don't have to give strong reads on anyone.
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On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense?
So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others.
Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
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@mkfuba I have made 3 FOS so far. 2 for clearly stated reasons on you and kush. 1 for the case that I just made on shady. I am not mindlessly splurging them around, rather I am using them intentionally and with my reasoning up front.
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@kush wait until the night post to discuss that stuff.
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On August 25 2012 04:46 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else. This is suspicious to me. We certainly shouldn't focus on one person (kush) if he's not scummy, but we shouldn't be FoS'ing everyone. At this point we actually want to be narrowing down our discussions so that we're not pressed a few hours before vote time. Casting a wide net of suspicion is what mafia want, so they don't have to give strong reads on anyone.
Yes, it's bad to suspect too many people just lightly.
Lvdr's suggestion to have a "widespread focus" (which doesn't exist, you either focus, a.k.a. tunnel OR your suspicions are widespread) seems a bit fishy to me.
It's all good and well to keep an open mind to changes in suspicions, and change targets sometimes.
But trying to scumhunt in a "widespread" way looks VERY suspicious to me. In my (albait limited) experience, FoS'ing and lightly suspecting a bunch of people at once is what SCUM wants to do to appear like they are scumhunting. + Show Spoiler +Case in point, Promethelax' play in XXIII. He did just that.
For trying to push this kind of scumhunting, my first FoS of the game goes to Lvdr:
##FoS: Lvdr
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On August 25 2012 04:43 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:41 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read. Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
I did an early town call to gauge reactions. At that point there was NO content AT ALL. Somebody has to offer something. Now that there has been actual posting, I find your attacks on Kush suspicious. Therefore, I FOS you.
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@Dandel I am not just splurging suspicion all over, I put a FOS on kush for bad play, and a FOS of mkfuba for fluff/lack of content. The goal there is to improve play, not that I have found scum 2 hours into the game. My first real scum read is shady as i outlined in my case.
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Flaw in your logic there.... if we tell you who to save, we have no way of actually knowing that you did it. There's nothing to be proven by stating that you are going to save someone when we have no idea what the mafia's night actions are.
Also, does this "So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others" mean you think that shady is scum?
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Pick the person yourself and claim who it is ~5 minutes before deadline. (so scum don't have time to react)
That person can just tell us if he was jailed afterwards.
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On August 25 2012 05:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk. Pick the person yourself and claim who it is ~5 minutes before deadline. (so scum don't have time to react) That person can just tell us if he was jailed afterwards.
EBWOP: That's what I'd do at least.
Well, not exactly, I wouldn't claim JK in the first 24 hours at all, but you know what I mean.
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Actually, my FoS on Lvdr came hours before Lvdr launched his FoS on me. By your logic, Lvdr should be the one guilty of turning the focus to others.
And your jk save point is moot if scum don't even hit the person you profess to save. And that's assuming you are JK, which at this point I don't think so.
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Weetee, Spaghetticus, Alsn--what are your reads?
Brief recap for you guys if you're just coming into the thread/just waking up:
1) Kush roleclaimed jailkeeper
2) Dandel disbelieved JK roleclaim and accused Kush
3) I didn't believe the roleclaim and voted Kush; also built case/FoS'd Lvdr
4) Lvdr drew a null read on Kush and FoS'd me for voting Kush
5) Mkfuba followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
6) Dandel said null tell on Kush
7) Thrawn followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
8) Dandel followed up on Lvdr and FoS'd him
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Just woke up a little earlier, will be posting something within an hour or so.
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@Shady Sands maybe you can explain this to me. If you are a townsperson why would you vote for me? Won't it become clear if I'm really the JK or mafia after the first night? I will say I'm going to roleblock someone then I'm going to do it. Why would the real JK, if it weren't me, roleblock the same person I say I'm going to roleblock? They would roleblock someone else to show the town my guilt.
If you are mafia why would you vote for me? Now this is clear. It's so you don't have to kill me during the night (because you know I'm JK). You get the town to lynch me so you can kill a better player in the nighttime. That is your motivation for voting for me.
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So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing.
With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter.
Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following:+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him.
At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why.
The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold.
Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me.
The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though!
Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a:
FoS Shady Sands
This is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either.
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EBWOP: Just wanted to clarify a statement.
Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand Shady doubling down on kush makes much less sense to me.
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On August 25 2012 08:28 kushm4sta wrote:
@Shady Sands maybe you can explain this to me. If you are a townsperson why would you vote for me? Won't it become clear if I'm really the JK or mafia after the first night? I will say I'm going to roleblock someone then I'm going to do it. Why would the real JK, if it weren't me, roleblock the same person I say I'm going to roleblock? They would roleblock someone else to show the town my guilt.
If you are mafia why would you vote for me? Now this is clear. It's so you don't have to kill me during the night (because you know I'm JK). You get the town to lynch me so you can kill a better player in the nighttime. That is your motivation for voting for me. I would like to point out that this kind of reasoning will not help your case. While I find Shady's reasons for voting you suspicious, you can argue however much you want about your ability to roleblock during the night. At this point noone but scum can believe anything you say about your supposed JK role, which leads all argumentation about it to be useless.
You should immediately abandon using it as a way to prove your innocence and take everyone's advice that we have given you several times throughout the thread, try to prove your innocence through discussion that helps town. This because even if it turns out you really are a JK, noone disputing that fact can really be held accountable for calling you out on it.
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@Lvdr:
@Shady:
It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game.
I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one.
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On August 25 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
@Lvdr:
@Shady:
It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game.
I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one. Ok, now this make me all confused... I guess it doesn't invalidate my concerns about Shady, but one the reasons I initially suspected him was because I didn't consider Lvdr scummy enough but he did.
That being said, I think I would like to let my current argumentation stand until we get some clarification from either of them.
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Heyhey!
Sorry guys I ended up being so tired after getting home from work that I just went to bed.
I am not entirely happy with the progress made on this thread in my absence, but this is more because I don't have a clear read on anyone after a quick read through than any lack of effort on the part of you guys. I should probably stop expecting people to do my work for me :/
I'll give you a quick update on my thoughts after one read through, and then double back and read it again to try and pick up on anything I've missed.
The case of Kush: I think Kush is playing so fast and loose that if he is Mafia
a) nobody will take him seriously enough to allow him to influence their reads. The Mafia need to convince the town to mislynch, otherwise probability dictates the town will most likely lynch the mafia by accident.
b) We will know when he does not come through with the 5min jailing plan.
If he is town, he is likely JK, so either the mafia will use a shot on him, or we have a JK. Either is better than lynching him.
In summary, we stand to gain more by letting a town Kush live than we stand to lose by letting a scum kush live. On top of this, I'm not the only one getting a null read on him as a pressured newbie, and probability dictates that all else being equal (which a null read is), the odds of him actually being scum are only 25%. IMO any more time spent on Kush until night time is time wasted.
I'll be posting my other reads shortly.
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I thinly spaghettis reasoning is exactly what I was trying to say. It makes no sense to vote for me after I roleclaimed, which is why shady voting for me instantly is the most suspicious thing any of us have dome yet. Therefore shady should be suspect number 1.
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On August 25 2012 10:22 kushm4sta wrote:
I thinly spaghettis reasoning is exactly what I was trying to say. It makes no sense to vote for me after I roleclaimed, which is why shady voting for me instantly is the most suspicious thing any of us have dome yet. Therefore shady should be suspect number 1.
Your claim was really, really terrible. Just saying.
And I find it interesting that you feel the need to bring this up again, after literally EVERYBODY thinks we should concentrate on other things by now. You should be happy with that instead.
Meh, I'm really tired and getting...cranky, I guess. Gotta go to sleep now.
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EBWOP:
That summary made no sense. I meant to say:
We have less to lose by allowing a scum kush live than we have by lynching a town kush.
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On Shady Sands:
His response to my earlier case is very reasonable, but also applies to any pointlessly critical behaviour. My read on Shady has gone back to relatively neutral, but I'll be keeping an eye on him, and I suggest we all do the same (though this goes without saying I guess). I do not like how he simultaneously asserts we should ignore Kush, but then votes for him. I'll be going over this in my second reading.
The following players I am finding difficulty in getting a feel for:
Fubu
Dandel Ion
Alsn
Lvdr
Dandel Ion and Fubu I believe have posted relatively little substance, I might be wrong, but this is just my gut feeling after my quick read through. I'll do another read through soon to confirm.
I am not sure on the content of Alsn and Lvdr, I am having a lot of difficulty keeping them apart in my mind as they both have names consisting of four random letters. I'll try and pay more attention to them on my second run.
Thrawn seems okay so far. I'm getting a mild town read on him, but just as with Shady, I'll be keeping an eye on him, as I believe his experience and current position would make for a particularly dangerous mafia if he happens to be one.
At this moment in time, my biggest scum read is WeeTee. He has been lurking pretty hard and contributed only vague assertions, as well as dodging requests for him to make reads. He may be very busy, but IMO he needs to put more in before he is bandwagoned for a (mis)lynch.
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On August 25 2012 08:36 Alsn wrote:So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing. With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter. Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following: + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him. At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why. The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold. Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me. The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though! Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a: FoS Shady SandsThis is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either.
You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again.
Again, my PoV on Kush is that
1) His post quality is so poor that spending an excessive amount of time analyzing he's guilty or not will be counterproductive.
2) His roleclaim does not sound like a confused townie to me--it sounds like a scum looking to bait a counter-claim.
3) We shouldn't necessarily give him the benefit of the doubt just because he sounds like a bad townie.
Hence those 3 points combined = lynch.
As for Lvdr, my view of him has gotten much scummier since my last FoS. Reasons in the next post.
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On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else.
I'm going to start with this post by Lvdr as to why we should lynch him after we lynch Kush.
Lvdr is saying that he did a town read on me and FoS'd mkfuba to "spark discussion". He didn't actually mean it--or at least, he didn't mean it as strongly as he made the town think.
Basically, he lied. One thing that I feel even more strongly about than lynching lurkers is lynching liars. That's strike one against Lvdr here.
Strike two--
He dumps accusations everywhere. On me, on mkfuba, on kush--and then lifts them as quickly as he dumps them. Pointing fingers everywhere on minimal evidence is usually a scumtell. Scum want to make town spend more time defending itself than hunting scum.
Strike three--
This is what I don't get from Lvdr. He accuses mkfuba and kush weakly, leaves the thread, then comes back and calls townie on them, saying that his earlier reads were to spark discussion bullshit. Nothing mkfuba has done in the intervening 20 hours justifies this backtracking from his earlier FoS, much less Kush. Instead, Lvdr just implicitly asserts it.
Why is this wierd? Because any player who was basing his reads off evidence would follow up on the FoS, see that mkfuba hasn't done anything that screams pro-town. And I'm still not sure how Lvdr could just wholly dismiss his earlier FoS on kush on any reasonable basis when the only evidence Kush has provided is an extremely weak JK claim. Basically, when you look at how rapidly Lvdr shifts his accusations around, it almost looks like he's playing with prior knowledge of who is town. This is the clearest and biggest scumtell in the book. Even if you buy that on Kush, how could he just dump the FoS he's given with the weak excuse that he was trying to spark discussion, without even discussing what happened to his targets that made him drop the FoS?
Because of the three arguments above, I'm going to levy a strong FoS Lvdr. If it's clear Kush won't be getting lynched today, I'd also be fine with a lynch on Lvdr as well.
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Also: Weetee where are you?
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Alright. We're into the 2nd 24hr period, which means the vote deadline is coming up soon. It's time we start putting our cards on the table by throwing some votes out.
##Vote WeeTee
Here are the first things he says that aren't part of the standard lurker policy discussion.
On August 24 2012 07:57 WeeTee wrote:
Thrawn you intimidate me with your confidence already, but I think that you'll be good to learn the game from! On August 24 2012 09:45 WeeTee wrote:Shady mentioned that you had experience in the game already so could you analyse some of the content at a better standard than 'you didn't write much'.
Help us all get the ball rolling!
The first quote, on its own, can easily just be explained as friendly chit-chat at the start of the game. However the 2nd quote comes after kush going into defensive mode, and it seems strange that WeeTee would not comment on kush or anything related to kush. He uses his 2nd post instead to reiterate his lurker policy position, and then directly asks another player to start scumhunting for him. Already in his first two posts he has indicated that he wants other people to get most of the town's attention as far as presenting reads, while up to that point he hadn't given a read on what everyone else who posted was talking about (kush.)
Next he is asked to give his read on shady, and he responds with the following: On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote:
I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town....
But then damn you meta comes into play!
In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum.
He gives reasons why shady could either be town or scum, he doesn't assign a likelihood to either of them and concludes that he doesn't have a read on shady. Yet another post where he offers nothing of substance.
His next post, after being asked to further explain his null read on Shady: On August 24 2012 10:47 WeeTee wrote:
I just feel like he can read the meta well, Shady is clearly fluent in his play style and capable of leading us in a particular direction.
Thinking about the meta is retarded so I wont speculate aloud any more.
On me and my style, clearly i'm not as precise as some of you but there's no reason that everyone must conform to full fledged suspicions. Having a few cents is an influential position in any social scene.
Perhaps I will blossom with content when I see a read that I believe and something more than the pokes and prods i'm getting.
Once again he doesn't commit to any position and this post, and all of his posts up to that point, indicate that he doesn't want anyone to take him seriously. Note that so far despite having the Kush issue to talk about he doesn't talk about it and only gives his wishy washy null reads when asked to by another player.
His next post is the first one where he commits to non-null read: On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:Hi all, sorry for not regularly posting I have Uni commitments and such. I have read through the current content, and every ones filters. It seems to me that everyone has taken a disliking to kushm4sta's quote "Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him." Even for a newbie like me I was like .... But I think that a real scum wouldn't reveal information in this clumsy manner and I know i'm not directing any suspicion there as kush is too easy of a target to pick off. I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him.
Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:03 Lvdr wrote:
Shady this is like the third game I've played with you in the last few days. If you don't know my lurker policy you must be thick as a brick.
Policy: LYNCH LURKERS. Hopefully there are no lurkers and we can vote scumreads. If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Thrawn
If the worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched, I don't see how town can possibly eventuate victorious. Lurking is an aspect of scum behaviour, or of poor play, and should be treated as such. You seem to propose it as some sort of tie breaking mechanism, but I believe this to be an over-simplification.
In day 1, there will be extremely little information to go by. Lurking will almost certainly be the biggest tell as to the value/alignment of a player. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 24 2012 09:25 Lvdr wrote:
Wait has everyone posted already? I think so. Right now I'm concerned about Kush. His post at the very best is completely useless to town. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta I will put a FoS on Alsn for this But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way. Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush, Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out? and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
His thoughts on the kush discussion are just as wishy wahsy as the rest of his posts have been. He gives both reasons for why he could think that kush is town or scum and then drops the topic without committing to a read. This is the behavior of a scum who wants to pretend to be active in discussions without having to actually commit to anything.
Then he puts a FOS on Alsn for being "the only one that chirped up for the obvious" in regards to Kush's "85% sure" post. This was a false statement, as I and others pointed out. His first actual read was based on a false premise, so he either had paid no attention to the thread even though he just said he "read through the current content, and every ones filters" or he is scum pushing a weak case. After this post I asked him for a read on lvdr, which is my next point.
He has repeatedly ignored my request for a read on lvdr. I say "repeatedly" because he posted in the thread multiple times after I asked for the read. Originally I asked him for the read as I thought it was relevant to his incorrect post about Alsn, but him ignoring my question while continuing to post just furthers my suspicion that he wants to remain below everyone's radar.
His next post is a response to a post from Alsn.
Alsn's post: On August 24 2012 15:13 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote:
I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious? First I would like to point out that I have not been the only one to criticize kush as you claim, several people jumped on the bandwagon(for good reason, I might add) when he first started accusing people. I would also like you to see my latest post where I explicitly say that we should stop worrying about kush for now as I think it's taking up too much of our attention. I have every intention of forgiving kush's mistakes, if he can start acting like that's what they are, instead of coming up with convoluted explanations as to why he feels the way he does. If you do not consider my latest post on kush to satisfy your suspicions against me, could you explain to me why that is?
WeeTee's post:On August 24 2012 15:22 WeeTee wrote:
@Alsn
I like you response verrry smooth.
I must have started writing before you posted so sorry for that.
Are you willing to say that kush is in the clear then? or do you think there is something underlying still?
I guess throwing around FoS can mean next to nothing, especially if you change your mind so fast.
I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target.
I bolded Alsn's question and WeeTee's response to it. Alsn asks WeeTee if WeeTee is satisfied with Alsn's latest post about kush, and if not then why not. WeeTee does not actually answer that question, instead he probes Alsn to speculate on if there is "something underlying still." This is yet another post where WeeTee does not commit to a read and instead asks others to give their reads instead. Then he throws out the line "I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target." Still he says nothing of substance while commenting on how other players might give their reads.
In his next post he addresses how I have called him out for making a poor case against Alsn: On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:
Leaders be leaders.
@dandel
I'm not interested in your negativity. I'm simply making my point.
My first quote had my message
"I did however notice that Alsn did put a FOS on Kush; to me this seems like Alsn nibbled at the bait, sensing his opportunity to take a weak player down."
I see my mistake in saying "the only one that chirped up", which thrawn just pointed out.
please disregard that comment.
Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick.
Super encouraging.
Here he admits to making a poor case, which is fine, but what strikes me as suspicious is the "please disregard that comment" part. Sorry buddy we don't just disregard cases, even if we originally accept that you presenting the case was an honest mistake.
His next post is more of the same stuff he's been doing all game, which is to not commit to a read and pushing others to give reads for him.
On August 24 2012 15:38 WeeTee wrote:
Alsn I totally agree,
Id love to see where the discussion goes over the next few hour because i'm not convinced on anyone as of yet.
We need some new POI.
If we need a new POI then provide one yourself.
His final post: On August 24 2012 15:50 WeeTee wrote:
Alsn I see the err of my ways. noted.
It could be him admitting to an honest mistake, but I'm inclined to believe it's just more of him posting to appear active without giving reads.
Summary: He doesn't commit to reads and instead asks people to present new cases and to speculate further on cases. His strongest commitment so far was a case based upon an inaccuracy. He hasn't obliged my request for a read on lvdr while he continues to post in the thread.
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Going to wait for Weetee to make a response before going either way on him. Though I agree, his recent behavior is suspicious.
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On August 25 2012 12:13 Shady Sands wrote:You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again. I would just like to point out that this statement is incorrect. The only suspicion I have directed your way earlier than my FoS just a few hours ago was agreeing that Spaghetticus' arguments against you had some merit, but that I didn't find them enough to suspect you of anything sinister.
Lots of information posted in a very short interval now, will read and see if I have anything to comment on.
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On August 25 2012 12:32 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 12:13 Shady Sands wrote:You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again. I would just like to point out that this statement is incorrect. The only suspicion I have directed your way earlier than my FoS just a few hours ago was agreeing that Spaghetticus' arguments against you had some merit, but that I didn't find them enough to suspect you of anything sinister. Lots of information posted in a very short interval now, will read and see if I have anything to comment on.
Sorry, I messed up there.
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Alrighty.
I am always busy and think the content you guys put up is (sometimes)utter crapola.
Im glad that iv been called out so that I can comment.
I have no reads on anyone at the moment and am happy for any outcome of the first day to happen.
I have trouble articulating what I want to say so I might be brash enough to put my #FoS on thrawn,
because he just never ever places a FoS and is always non committal.
I know I make a target of myself for being clumsy but for me to participate and get better i'm going to have to ignore the criticism I get and just put it out there.
Continuing on with my FoS its clear that thrawn is so active, probably overactive in the sense.
I have a case that chugging the bandwagon against me is a well timed push,
experienced even.
Building a case on me in my absence based on the fact that I am absent is not convincing enough to suspect me,
if it was then a FoS is surely sufficent.
Yet I recieved a vote from thrawn.
Just over the top imo.
I urge you all to read thrawns filter and see how passive his playstyle is.
And then make up your minds.
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On August 25 2012 13:16 WeeTee wrote:
Alrighty.
I am always busy and think the content you guys put up is (sometimes)utter crapola.
Im glad that iv been called out so that I can comment.
I have no reads on anyone at the moment and am happy for any outcome of the first day to happen.
I have trouble articulating what I want to say so I might be brash enough to put my #FoS on thrawn,
because he just never ever places a FoS and is always non committal.
I know I make a target of myself for being clumsy but for me to participate and get better i'm going to have to ignore the criticism I get and just put it out there.
Continuing on with my FoS its clear that thrawn is so active, probably overactive in the sense.
I have a case that chugging the bandwagon against me is a well timed push,
experienced even.
Building a case on me in my absence based on the fact that I am absent is not convincing enough to suspect me,
if it was then a FoS is surely sufficent.
Yet I recieved a vote from thrawn.
Just over the top imo.
I urge you all to read thrawns filter and see how passive his playstyle is.
And then make up your minds.
So... you are FoSing Thrawn because he doesn't FoS anyone else and is therefore noncommital? But he just voted you.
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Ok, I would like to take a step back and see where we are right now and what our options are.
As I see it, we have 2 people pushing for actual votes. thrawn and Shady. I'm inclined to believe either story but I do find both of you to be a bit premature in your conclusions. Maybe you are just waiting for more information and just want to get the voting started, which I suppose is a fair point.
Both of the proposed lynchees are being pushed due to the fact that they are playing as "bad townies". Let's disregard for the moment if they are doing so under pretenses or if they were genuinely put off balance by attacks during the early part of the day.
I will state for the record that given the choice of only kush or WeeTee, I would prefer to lynch WT. Simply because the JK claim is something we should be able to confirm later on in the game.
Dandel Ion, mkfuba, Lvdr and Spaghetticus. What are your feelings on this subject? Should town be ok with just picking either WeeTee or kush to lynch, or is there something else of substance to go on?
From the last few posts here, I'm feeling relatively sure about thrawn being town, mostly due to the material he has produced, but also for following through on WT with what I would say is great success for his case. It should be noted however from looking at his filter, that most of his posting has been on the policy discussion early on, as well as defending people when it was highly non-controversial to do so(shady and lvdr early on, and me when WT attacked me).
Shady, I'm still not entirely satisfied with your reasons for going so hard on kush, but I can't entirely disagree with your reasoning.
I would like it if Lvdr came back to defend himself more against the things pointed out against him by you and others. Because while I agree with the following quote: On August 25 2012 04:21 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
##FOS Shady
And you,Lvdr, could make yourself a lot clearer on a lot of topics, Shady's criticism of you has not been entirely without merit and while I think he jumped the gun, it would help the rest of us if you could elaborate. Especially your backtrack on mkfuba who I also feel needs to get his stuff together and write something of substance.
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EBWOP: That last segment came out kind of weirdly. the part before the quote and after the quote are supposed to be part of the same paragraph and, so just consider the "And you," to be a continuation of the sentence prior to the quote.
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my comments are in red
On August 25 2012 13:16 WeeTee wrote:
Alrighty.
I am always busy and think the content you guys put up is (sometimes)utter crapola.
Im glad that iv been called out so that I can comment.
Ok, you say our content is crap, I say your content is definitely some of the worst. You are glad that you've been called out so that you can have something to say? As in, you wouldn't have anything to say if you hadn't been called out?
I have no reads on anyone at the moment and am happy for any outcome of the first day to happen.
What an incredibly scummy statement. No reads, and you don't care about the outcome of the lynch.
I have trouble articulating what I want to say so I might be brash enough to put my #FoS on thrawn,
because he just never ever places a FoS and is always non committal.
Non committal? I have aggressively gone after you and kush, and I just posted a huge wall of text on why I think you're scum. I'm also one of the first people to vote.
I know I make a target of myself for being clumsy but for me to participate and get better i'm going to have to ignore the criticism I get and just put it out there.
Continuing on with my FoS its clear that thrawn is so active, probably overactive in the sense.
I have a case that chugging the bandwagon against me is a well timed push,
experienced even.
So I'm scum because I'm super active, and because I am bandwagoning onto a case against you? I have been calling you all the whole game.
Building a case on me in my absence based on the fact that I am absent is not convincing enough to suspect me,
if it was then a FoS is surely sufficent.
You having not posted recently had nothing to do with my case against you, it was entirely about your actions while you were posting. On that note, you still have not answered the question that I've asked you over and over again.
Yet I recieved a vote from thrawn.
Just over the top imo.
I urge you all to read thrawns filter and see how passive his playstyle is.
And then make up your minds.
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going to bed right now, but before I go
FoS Weetee
His above response was nearly as bad as Kush's. If he doesn't pull a really good defense or an absolutely rock solid case by the time I wake up, I'm fine with a lynch on him.
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total blab from thrawn.
Make a real case for gosh sake, now ur clearly FoSing me for the sake of it.
You can make all the fluff you want about me, Im not scared because if you mess up this will be the point where those in day 2 can suspect you.
The push against me is weak at best please everyone reiterate the reasons why you want me suspected and you will see im just being baited out by thrawn. id go as far to say hunted,
I know my role in this game so
#FoS thrawn still stands
shady really.. if your intelligent you wouldn't join this bandwagon too
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Town started off pretty well in terms of people posting but now half of you have gone into lurker mode. There is plenty to discuss and I will be suspicious of those of you that don't participate in scumhunting and later bandwagon onto popular lynch candidates.
@WeeTee
You say I'm baiting or hunting you? Why are "baited" and "hunted" your choice of words? Is it because of how long my post was?
Does this:On August 25 2012 14:01 WeeTee wrote:shady really.. if your intelligent you wouldn't join this bandwagon too mean you think shady is town? You initially gave super weak null reads on shady and I want to know why you now think he is town.
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@WeeTee the only reason people are FOSing you is because you are a bad poster like me. Your posts are bad and you shouldn't even try to deny that.
To other people in the thread let me just say that being a bad poster doens't make you mafia. Nothing about WeeTee screams mafia to me. He is just acting kind of like a defensive ass.
The only person who I believe has truly shown signs of being mafia is shady. On more than 1 occasion he has said "well i want to lynch this person but if you lynch this dude thats cool too." He basically wants to lynch everyone suspicious. Also I do not think people are really paying enough attention to the fact that he instavoted me after i roleclaimed. That makes ZERO sense for a townsperson because, as Alsn stated, my roleclaim can be CONFIRMED soon.
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Hey thrawn & all,
I really want to make an effort to improve my posts to a higher level, I certainly don't want to fall into this path that I am heading down.
I don't believe my actions display any anti town behaviors other than my incompetence, and I also think that in someways if I were scum that I would be more obviously bad in that negative direction.
This I will en devour to improve.
The reason I had a read on thrawn being scum is that he didn't put a FoS on anybody during the D1 period(except for agree with other FoS's), and I was willing to begin a case on that. However after thrawn voted for me out of the blue I was concerned that he was using his credibility to vote for me when he could have potentially pinned anyone he wanted. Why me? Why risk his town credibility for a result that he cannot be sure about and a result I can assure should get you suspected if i'm lynched. And it really was a risk I mean a VOTE is more powerful than a FoS in my opinion.
@shady
On August 25 2012 13:19 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 13:16 WeeTee wrote:
Alrighty.
I am always busy and think the content you guys put up is (sometimes)utter crapola.
Im glad that iv been called out so that I can comment.
I have no reads on anyone at the moment and am happy for any outcome of the first day to happen.
I have trouble articulating what I want to say so I might be brash enough to put my #FoS on thrawn,
because he just never ever places a FoS and is always non committal.
I know I make a target of myself for being clumsy but for me to participate and get better i'm going to have to ignore the criticism I get and just put it out there.
Continuing on with my FoS its clear that thrawn is so active, probably overactive in the sense.
I have a case that chugging the bandwagon against me is a well timed push,
experienced even.
Building a case on me in my absence based on the fact that I am absent is not convincing enough to suspect me,
if it was then a FoS is surely sufficent.
Yet I recieved a vote from thrawn.
Just over the top imo.
I urge you all to read thrawns filter and see how passive his playstyle is.
And then make up your minds. So... you are FoSing Thrawn because he doesn't FoS anyone else and is therefore noncommital? But he just voted you.
My read on thrawn was looking in a different direction to the what the group is discussing, It was an observation that I made and wanted to elaborate for some extra input, much like any of the content so far.
As I mentioned above I was building to the case and just lacked the confidence to make it at this point. I can see my timing was all off. I think it could be worth noting that thrawn certainly did go hard in by voting. To me this is why my case has substance.
Thrawn's Quote:
"You having not posted recently had nothing to do with my case against you, it was entirely about your actions while you were posting. On that note, you still have not answered the question that I've asked you over and over again."
This quote cements that your case about me is based on my quality, and I really hope to improve my posting and ask that I am not target anymore based on this if I improve.
The action of not putting a read on shady for you thrawn is that I can't formulate a good read, I am not sure if I have permission to decline but I can assure you that I will have a look and examine it and post more for a better result.
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On August 25 2012 18:16 WeeTee wrote:Hey thrawn & all, I really want to make an effort to improve my posts to a higher level, I certainly don't want to fall into this path that I am heading down. I don't believe my actions display any anti town behaviors other than my incompetence, and I also think that in someways if I were scum that I would be more obviously bad in that negative direction. This I will en devour to improve. The reason I had a read on thrawn being scum is that he didn't put a FoS on anybody during the D1 period(except for agree with other FoS's), and I was willing to begin a case on that. However after thrawn voted for me out of the blue I was concerned that he was using his credibility to vote for me when he could have potentially pinned anyone he wanted. Why me? Why risk his town credibility for a result that he cannot be sure about and a result I can assure should get you suspected if i'm lynched. And it really was a risk I mean a VOTE is more powerful than a FoS in my opinion. @shady Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 13:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 WeeTee wrote:
Alrighty.
I am always busy and think the content you guys put up is (sometimes)utter crapola.
Im glad that iv been called out so that I can comment.
I have no reads on anyone at the moment and am happy for any outcome of the first day to happen.
I have trouble articulating what I want to say so I might be brash enough to put my #FoS on thrawn,
because he just never ever places a FoS and is always non committal.
I know I make a target of myself for being clumsy but for me to participate and get better i'm going to have to ignore the criticism I get and just put it out there.
Continuing on with my FoS its clear that thrawn is so active, probably overactive in the sense.
I have a case that chugging the bandwagon against me is a well timed push,
experienced even.
Building a case on me in my absence based on the fact that I am absent is not convincing enough to suspect me,
if it was then a FoS is surely sufficent.
Yet I recieved a vote from thrawn.
Just over the top imo.
I urge you all to read thrawns filter and see how passive his playstyle is.
And then make up your minds. So... you are FoSing Thrawn because he doesn't FoS anyone else and is therefore noncommital? But he just voted you. My read on thrawn was looking in a different direction to the what the group is discussing, It was an observation that I made and wanted to elaborate for some extra input, much like any of the content so far. As I mentioned above I was building to the case and just lacked the confidence to make it at this point. I can see my timing was all off. I think it could be worth noting that thrawn certainly did go hard in by voting. To me this is why my case has substance. Thrawn's Quote: "You having not posted recently had nothing to do with my case against you, it was entirely about your actions while you were posting. On that note, you still have not answered the question that I've asked you over and over again." This quote cements that your case about me is based on my quality, and I really hope to improve my posting and ask that I am not target anymore based on this if I improve. The action of not putting a read on shady for you thrawn is that I can't formulate a good read, I am not sure if I have permission to decline but I can assure you that I will have a look and examine it and post more for a better result.
First of all I want to say that this post is the highest quality of a post that I've seen from you so far, so that is a step in the right direction. However my case against you wasn't based on the quality of your posts. You have a history of avoiding giving reads, and when someone asks you for a read you give reasons why you think they could be town or scum but don't commit to either side. That was the main point of my case... that you give weak null reads and suggest/ask other people to start discussion/ make reads instead of you. Also, the vibe I got from a lot of your posts is that you don't want the town to take your opinions seriously, which is a good indication that you are scum. A good way to establish yourself as town is to be direct and decisive. This doesn't mean you can't change your reads, it just means you shouldn't constantly give wishy-washy null reads without any indication to which side (town/scum) you believe to be most likely. Thanks for saying that you will give a read on shady but you need to make sure and follow through. One thing that sticks out to me is that you never gave me your read on lvdr when I asked for it a few pages ago in relation to your FOS on Asln. I asked you multiple times within a short period and you continued to post without answering me. Over time I became less concerned with what your read on him was and more concerned that you hadn't answered me. In fact, you still have not done so.
I'm sticking with my vote on you because of all the things I said in my case against you I still strongly believe to be true and one post doesn't change that. I also want to make sure you and everyone else know that my case against you isn't about the quality of your posts, it's about the scum-motivations behind those posts and how you constantly ignored my question after I asked it several times while you were posting. Reread my original case and you will see what I mean. Your latest post is a step in the right direction because you explained your reasoning behind your FOS on me better than you did initially, but I think that since we're only half a day away from the vote deadline people should start voting and being very transparent and direct with their reads. Are you confident enough in your read on me to vote for me? If not then it's time that you decide who is your top scum candidate and outline a case and vote for them.
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going to sleep, i'll be back in the thread a few hours before the night post
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I will be gone for the next few hours too - I didn't have time to read the thread yet, so I can't really comment right now.
I will be back (well) before the deadline.
Sorry
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I am glad that you thrawn think that my quality has increased in that post.
That you still are suspicious of me even though Kush was in a similar situation to me earlier;
and has a lot more compelling and confusing mess associated.
You decided that I am more likely to be vote worthy, even with my best efforts to try harder.
I know that the idea of throwing votes around make you look scummy as ever, but consider that I roll town after you lead the lynch on me. I think it wise that although I have met your suspicions you change your path to either a no lynch based on little evidence or reconsider earlier targets.
Once again I use my previous post as reference to my non willingness to give you a read.
I'm just not sure on D1 of my first game.
This will be my last post before waking up before the lynch.
In my opinion thrawn is the only one that should be pushing for my lynch because he is committed to it,
at risk of not being a vote changer he really has no choice. If I get lynched than thrawn you can take top priority as scum.
I honestly don't see my scum motivations, I'm struggling to figure out what motivations look like.
I don't believe that anyone else thinks I am more guilty than Kush and even
kush mentioned:
"To other people in the thread let me just say that being a bad poster doens't make you mafia. Nothing about WeeTee screams mafia to me. He is just acting kind of like a defensive ass."
Both of us have clearly have underdeveloped skills and are trying to make amends.
I want to vote for thrawn because he has attacked me and I want to point out that if he leads me to the lynch he has scum all over him. BUT he has to hold a stance on something or risk being this "wishy washy" term that being used.
I can't fully justify my reasons for him to be scum, I know my play has been bad. So I wont be voting to lynch him.
Instead i'm kicking off my vote for Kush's defensive play, which is impossible to read. I'd rather it just be out in the open what he is playing at, then to speculate.
Please Read my posts to give me a fighting chance is all I ask.
##VOTE: kushm4sta
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Guys I am working on a massive post which will take a while longer to write and I would appreciate it if you did not commit to hard to your lynching until you have read it. I believe I have some valuable insight to give that has gone largely unsaid, but takes a while to articulate.
I am going to argue for a defense of WeeTee and Kush, and for a lynching of either Dandel Ion or Shady Sands. If you have time to spare please consider getting familiar with the filter's of these individuals.
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Okay, Day one countdown is starting to be felt and I think it’s about time people started acting on their convictions. I want at least one strong post from everyone before voting time.
My position at the moment is that both Kush and WeeTee are town, or at least not threats. I will most likely be voting for either Dandel Ion or Shady Sands, and will try my utmost to convince you guys to do so too.
First, I will argue in defence of Kush, and then extend this defence to WeeTee by means of this precedent.
Kush is town. He is THE most town person here, the only person you can be certain of being town other than yourself (I won’t bother addressing this to any scum reading this). This may seem counter intuitive to some, as he has done little in the way of pro-town behaviour. The reason he is almost certainly town is because he is the only one willing and able to prove it. If he is mafia, as soon as the clock ticks over to morning and he hasn’t jailed an individual that he specifies five minutes prior.
Think about the way he has been acting.
As previously mentioned by someone (I can’t remember who), Kush is acting alone. He has obviously not taken as much time to read through the newbie guides, nor has he spent much time looking through filters. If he had taken this time, he would not be in the predicament he is in. People that have not taken time to consider the meta, and are not of a systematic nature, would act exactly in accordance with the behaviour that has been demonstrated by Kush. A person who has his own private mafia buddy would be better informed of the norm and act accordingly: more cautiously, more precisely, and would premeditate his actions to a far greater degree.
Kush has been knee-jerking at every mention of his name faster than an epileptic watching river dance. He has no plans, no grasp of norms of town and scum behaviour, and seems to be taking a lot of the attacks on him a great deal more personally than is healthy.
The alternative explanations are that he is good mafia, or that he is bad mafia. We can rule out that he is a good mafia. It would take a genius to feign this level of incompetence in order to be read as town, but a genius mafia would not then put himself in the position of having to prove he is JK or be lynched. This leaves the possibility of him being bad mafia. If he is bad mafia, we will know soon when he fails to meet his part of the bargain, and we will have our lynch for day two, and will be in a four town to one mafia position come day three, which statistically favours the town more heavily than our starting position of seven town to two mafia. If this outcome eventuates, the town is ahead of schedule for scum lynching and should have enough information by then to close the deal.
So Kush is bad town (and likely to be shot for rolecalling).
Take a minute to consider my argument so far. Do you agree? If not, why not? If so, think about how Kush’s behaviour mirrors WeeTee’s, and how fortunate it is that Kush just happened to be JK, giving us grounds not to mislynch him on day one.
You done?
Now, if you can accept that Kush is almost certainly town, doesn’t this make it entirely believable that WeeTee is also town? With the exception of his most recent post, WeeTee has demonstrated behaviour nearly identical to Kush.
While Kush was unwilling to jump into the fray, claiming he didn’t have much to say. WeeTee has largely lurked with the intermittent injection of some vague uneducated insights, which, if you are in the business of motive attribution (if you haven’t figured it out already, you are!) is operationally identical to Kush’s early town play. He is likely a bored vanilla towney who, having probably been too proud to read the guides or ask for coaching, does not have the first idea about how to go about the business of hunting scum. There is no driving force in his posts other than to not be lynched, and without a fundamental understanding of what behaviour constitutes a tell for one alignment or the other, it is no wonder the prevalent elements of his posting style constitute knee-jerk kicks to the shins of anyone calling him out.
Their two styles are equivalent in game output: they contribute little, and as a result are targeted by nitpicky mafia and desperate-for-clues townies alike. I hope that this err… essay… I hope to have convinced you not to lynch either of our most inept junior members. In part two, I will attempt to give you a more suitable target in either Dandel Ion or Shady Sands. This will likely take even more time and words than my defence of kush and WeeTee, but I shall not rest until it is done!
As a disclaimer, I’d like to address the two people I just ruthlessly dismissed as incompetent. While the psychological models pertaining to learning style aptitudes (kinaesthetic learners, visual learners etc.) are largely bunk, it is true that people differ in their approach to learning. Many people including myself approach a new challenge with the intention of learning everything we can about it so as not to look incapable, while others prefer to learn by trial and error, it is the latter group in which I would likely put both WeeTee and Kush. While it is obvious to the people here that you are not as competent in this initial newbie game, I would attribute this to your learning style preference and effort involved rather than any innate incapacity, and so would advise you not to be discouraged by the tirades of criticism but to learn from them.
Stay tuned folks!
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@spaghetti
So you're saying that I should set aside my suspicions of WeeTee and see his behavior as poor play? I am more willing to do this for Kush because I think he more accurately fits the profile you outlined of someone who doesn't know what to do. Kush did commit very heavily too reads, in fact it was his 85% post that gave him the most attention. WeeTee didn't commit to reads, and when asked for reads he gave a reason why a player might be mafia, and reason why they might be town, and then dropped the subject without saying which he thought was more likely. Also, I can't ignore how he has still refused up to this point to give a read on lvdr. When he made that post where he FOS'd Alsn for being the only one to "chirp up" at kush's 85% statement, I looked at the thread and noticed that lvdr had strongly called out kush for that post. I asked WeeTee for his read on lvdr, and he did not give it. He continued posting in the thread so I asked him again. I continued asking him up until I went to sleep, and when I woke up he had still not responded. Even now, after making it part of my case against him, he still hasn't answered the question. Am I supposed to ignore this? I have called him out on it multiple times, it's been over 24 hours since I originally did it, and still he doesn't answer. I honestly can't think of any reason why a town-WeeTee would do that. I do not believe that he hasn't read the question. I asked him multiple times while he was still active during the beginning of the game, and I made it a major point of my case against him, and in his post where he says he is going to improve his play (top of the page) I included the question again as part of my response. He posted a 2nd time after that and even then he didn't even address the question or the fact that he had ignored it.
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Please, call me Spag.
IMO Kush's overconfident reads were overreactions to criticisms of his complacence. His initial stance was that he did not know what to do, and to his credit he at least did not pretend that he did.
Your attacks on WeeTee assume a pattern of systematic and rational cognitive style which I am almost certain is not the case. He is spontaneous and in over his head, with A LOT of information to sift through that is probably largely meaningless or confusing. My last post was almost exactly the equivalent size of a first year university paper, and it was one post in approximately 270.
Look at his last post, this is post-attitude adjustment and yet it is more characteristic of a stream of consciousness exercise than a coherent argument for his continued survival. While your point that he has repeatedly failed to give a read on Lvdr is completely reasonable, it is entirely understandable that a person who is struggling to make sense of a new environment is having difficulty conforming to a yet more demanding and arbitrary criteria of assessment of said environment. Even an incompetent scum would at least take the time to address a repeated criticism so as not to leave it hanging in the air begging questions. This epic a violation of the norm speaks almost certainly of a disinterested townie than an inept scum. I find it much more reasonable to assume that he simply does not have much to say about Lvdr and is bad at communicating this fact, than that he is a disinterested or incapable scum.
WeeTee, you are doing yourself no favours by leaving this to hang. Please make your position here clear! I am bolding this shit so you no longer have an excuse!!
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I'm really sorry for my absense over the last day or so. Unless you want excuses from me, I'll jump right into my views of the game so far.
I remain suspicious of Lvdr, as he has done little in the way of addressing my concerns. What I said about him was not about mindlessly throwing around FoS's, it was that despite his FoS's he has contributed very little to town or give us any insight into his motivations. Since my previous rough analysis of his play, he has made four posts, none of which affect my read on him. His strongest town action is his case against Shady, but though it gives us some insight into his motivations, I find the FoS suspicious. He seemed perfectly willing to declare Shady as town when he was acting in his "aggressive town" meta, but is apparently confused when Shady sticks to his "voting based on ridiculous reasoning" meta. I have seen evidence of both in my games against Shady (limited though they may be), and I see neither of them as good enough reasoning to confirm him as town or as scum. At the moment my vote will stand on him, unless switching my vote is able to avoid a no-lynch.
##vote Lvdr
My second candidate at the moment is WeeTee. Though in general I agree with Spag's recent posts, Thrawn raises a good point in that WeeTee has yet to take a side in most matters. Also, he has voted for kush because of his defensive, inexperienced play, when WeeTee himself is using it in his own defense as a bad townie. I would prefer to vote for him only as a last resort, but am willing to as he was my second scumread earlier in the game. As an aside, I realize I didn't mention this earlier. I found him more suspicious than kush for reasons that I couldn't put into words, so I didn't comment on him until I found out what was bugging me. Thrawn's post showed me what I was missing.
I look forward to Spag's post regarding Dandel lon and Shady. I'm going to have a look at other peoples' cases against Shady, but from my first read through I wasn't particularly convinced by them thus far.
I also realise that I am suspicious. I am going to try to be more active until voting time, though I make no promises since my sister is visiting for the first time in months, and she may not want to sit and watch me filter through forums. Ask me anything you want me to address for sure. I don't do this to pass my scumhunting responsibilities onto others, but because my methods of D1 scumhunting evidently need some work and I do want to contribute as much as possible. I am naturally more timid than aggressive, and I usually become a stronger poster when there is more concrete evidence (flips and night actions), so during D1 it's difficult for me to make strong reads, but I'd like to rise to the challenge.
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@Dandel I see what you mean about carrying the argument, I will attempt to table it for now... I find it hard to separate Shady being overly aggressive from Shady being scummy. I would put him on the 'don't-lynch-D1-but-watch-for-future-scummyness' list.
For d1 lynch I direct the towns attention to this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=13#253
To have no reads at this point is completely absurd. Also incredibly anti-town. Reeks of mafia playing too safe. Suspecting thrawn for being 'passive' is equally absurd. Thrawn has been active and productive. Not 100% confirmed town, but prolly the closest we have right now.
Add in this comedy of a follow-up:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=13#259
Can I just say the entire post sucks?
WeeTee says he has no reads and then comes at thrawn with
Make a real case for gosh sake, now ur clearly FoSing me for the sake of it
You have refused to make a case and then OMGUS'ed someone for actually making a case against you.
shady really.. if your intelligent you wouldn't join this bandwagon too
This is not even an argument, just an emotional appeal.
##vote: WeeTee
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=14#266
WeeTee's post before this one is the highest quality one to date, but this post is just more... bad.
Why are you piling on to kush (who is maybe the only easier target than you) when we have already decided that he is a poor choice to lynch d1? Your defense is that you are a new player just like kush, so your play has been bad-town instead of scummy, yet you still decide to vote for kush, the person you modeled your defense after. This doesn't read town, this reads mafia starting to struggle coming up to the lynch deadline.
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On August 26 2012 01:22 Lvdr wrote:WeeTee says he has no reads and then comes at thrawn with You have refused to make a case and then OMGUS'ed someone for actually making a case against you. This is not even an argument, just an emotional appeal.
Just for clarification purposes:
I was confused about that post for awhile. I think the post is addressed to shady and not me because shady was the one who FOS'd WeeTee without much of an explanation, while I skipped the FOS and went straight to a vote for WeeTee when I made my case against him.
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@mkfuba My explanation of town/scum reads on shady
1. First town read maybe 35% confidence. Partially motivated by an actual read (that was early and incomplete), but much more in order to stimulate discussion. Not really a brillient play because many players are new and couldn't comment on metas, but I was trying.
2. Given that it was early, I basically reserve the right to change my mind. Townies cannot be afraid to share reads because if they change their minds, suddenly they're scummy.
3. I think Dandel may have a point about bringing arguments in from other games. Both me and Shady are in Normal III, and we suspect each other there too Hard to keep an impartial mind because I see many similar charactaristics across the games. For what its worth I think he's either town in both games or mafia in both games.
4. I would argue my FOS has been useful to town, there has been a good amount of discussion and I have been active in that. For example when I FOS'ed you, you hadn't posted much in the way of content -- now I would say you are active in scum hunting and so the FOS was successful.
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I will reread WeeTee's case, but it seems like mindless OMGUS either way.
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Okay so hopefully by this point you have payed close attention to my earlier post, and are convinced that Kush is town, and that WeeTee is likely town. The problem now is, who do we vote for? A no-lynch is an admission of defeat on day one that will generate zero data on who to lynch tomorrow, and will allow the scum to take one of our numbers for free. This IMO is worse than a mislynch, as it is the equivalent of allowing the mafia two killings on the first night. You would need to be bloody convincing to get me to believe a no-lynch is the best play for town.
This means we need to lynch someone and fast!
I will start with my case against Shady Sands as I have already pressured him a tad whereas my interaction with Dandel Ion has been null.
My initial case on Shady was the identification of the following two attacks as critical but unproductive and befitting a scummy motive to appear town while picking apart scapegoats more than a town motive of actual productivity:
Lvdr:
Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.
To which Shady responded:
I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?
…and
Fuba:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
To which Shady responded
:S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
I gave a scum read on this as I characterised this as nonuseful nit-picking. I was admittedly over-confident in this read, as I had not thought of the possible long-term motive of Shady to detect seemingly unimportant discrepancies in player stories. I later withdrew my FoS from Shady thinking myself to have been over-eager. I stand by my withdrawal for my attack on the first critique on Lvdr, as his response:
On accusing Lvdr: I saw a policy disagreement developing in the thread--between leaning towards lurker lynching versus scumhunting--and I wanted to make sure Lvdr wasn't trying to unfairly equivocate on it. basically, in questions of policy, if someone posts on it, the post should have a clear preference one way or another so that we can judge their later play against their policy prefs--or combine them in such a way to have a clear lean in terms of policy, again, so we can judge their later play against their earlier view on policy. Lvdr's post didn't do that--it just balanced between the two while also saying they were different. I personally feel the two should be balanced but combined, so I wanted to see if Lvdr wanted to keep the two parts separate.
-is a consistent explanation of a town Shady’s behaviour. Consider this point dropped as I will pursue it no further.
His explanation for his critique on fuba however:
On Fuba: most of my doubts on Fuba have gone away by now, but at the time, I thought that Fuba's emphasis on night activity itself is scummy. Scum have greater power to use and abuse the thread than town does at night, so encouraging heavy activity at night without saying daytime activity is more important hands an edge to scum. But given that was his first post I didn't want to push him too hard on it.
-is flaky. It’s not enough that he changed his mind about Fuba (switching sides without adequate justification is considered scummy anyway), his initial read on Fuba was irrational and his attention to this detail looks exactly like Shady was sowing the seeds of discord. What exactly did Shady think Fuba’s intention was here? To somehow kill town activity in the day by emphasising the nightlife? This does not make sense and fits a motive of appearing critical while achieving nothing. I am not at all satisfied with this answer and I demand a better explanation.
In the same post, Shady shifts his attention to Kush:
Now, moving to Kush:
Kush is running the classic "bad townie" defense. It's an argument where the poster says:
1) I am a bad townie
2) People are just targeting me because I'm a bad townie, and hence easy to lynch
3) Those people must be targeting me because I'm easy, and not because they actually think I'm scum
4) Because those people aren't targeting me because I'm scum, then they must be trying to trick town
5) They must be scum.
This is a really bad defense because every links 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 are all not 100% airtight. Hence Kush's entire defense, to me, is a wash--it neither makes him look scummier, nor makes him look like more of a townie. If Kush keeps posting like this, though, then I'm probably going to vote him because my initial read will be unchanged. But if Kush decides to start posting coherent, long cases backed by logic instead of OMGUS, then I might change my mind.
I have outlined my reasons for why Kush is almost certainly town. Shady is one of the more experienced players here, and yet got a complete opposite read? Shady’s argument is quite well reasoned, and is correct in that Kush’s defence is piss weak. The problem is, it is not a valid argument that a person who is bad at the game is scum, and this argument is exactly the sort a scum would employ to provoke a seemingly reasonable misunderstanding and subsequent mislynch.
Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read.
To which Shady responds:
Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
The thing is… it does make sense. Lvdr made a non-committal play against Shady, in order to generate discussion and hunt scum. This does not give Shady some sort of amnesty from actually being scum. Lvdr had a legitimate reason to FoS Shady, it is one of the reasons I am FoSing him myself!
Next…
Again, my PoV on Kush is that
1) His post quality is so poor that spending an excessive amount of time analyzing he's guilty or not will be counterproductive.
2) His roleclaim does not sound like a confused townie to me--it sounds like a scum looking to bait a counter-claim.
3) We shouldn't necessarily give him the benefit of the doubt just because he sounds like a bad townie.
To paraphrase:
1) Kush is bad so we should not think about whether he is guilty before we lynch him. Time spent thinking about whether we should lynch him is time wasted because in the end we will lynch him regardless? This is despite the fact that by voting now without further thought, I am ruling out the possibility of thinking about other potential lynches. The cost is too high!
2) Despite the potential exposure of 50% of the mafia in this game, I am certain that Kush would roleclaim for the faintest whiff of a hint of who the town blues are.
3) We should ignore his potential motives and remove all doubt from our minds.
This is garbage. Shady is an experienced player who should be able to imagine alternate motives. This IMO is a clumsy misdirection attempt.
The next evidence I present is what seems to be a weak case against Lvdr:
I'm going to start with this post by Lvdr as to why we should lynch him after we lynch Kush.
Lvdr is saying that he did a town read on me and FoS'd mkfuba to "spark discussion". He didn't actually mean it--or at least, he didn't mean it as strongly as he made the town think.
Basically, he lied. One thing that I feel even more strongly about than lynching lurkers is lynching liars. That's strike one against Lvdr here.
Strike two--
He dumps accusations everywhere. On me, on mkfuba, on kush--and then lifts them as quickly as he dumps them. Pointing fingers everywhere on minimal evidence is usually a scumtell. Scum want to make town spend more time defending itself than hunting scum.
Strike three--
This is what I don't get from Lvdr. He accuses mkfuba and kush weakly, leaves the thread, then comes back and calls townie on them, saying that his earlier reads were to spark discussion bullshit. Nothing mkfuba has done in the intervening 20 hours justifies this backtracking from his earlier FoS, much less Kush. Instead, Lvdr just implicitly asserts it.
Why is this wierd? Because any player who was basing his reads off evidence would follow up on the FoS, see that mkfuba hasn't done anything that screams pro-town. And I'm still not sure how Lvdr could just wholly dismiss his earlier FoS on kush on any reasonable basis when the only evidence Kush has provided is an extremely weak JK claim. Basically, when you look at how rapidly Lvdr shifts his accusations around, it almost looks like he's playing with prior knowledge of who is town. This is the clearest and biggest scumtell in the book. Even if you buy that on Kush, how could he just dump the FoS he's given with the weak excuse that he was trying to spark discussion, without even discussing what happened to his targets that made him drop the FoS?
His first point is that Lvdr lied and lying is scummy. This is rubbish. Lvdr’s intention falls neither clearly under scum nor town, but the fact that he explicitly admits the lie speaks of a lack of premeditation that would characterise scummy play. Is Shady suggesting that Lvdr planned to lie to create discord, then tell us about the lie to remove any Fos from him? What’s the point? By revealing the lie Lvdr sacrifices any premises that were relying on it, the only consequent we are left with is the subsequent discussion which speaks of a teleological town play. Narrowing in on a lie simply because it is a lie ignores the intent of the lie and therefore almost deliberately leads conversation down a dead-end. This is scummy play.
His second point is that Lvdr dumps accusations everywhere and then withdraws them. I do not consider this read strong nor the implications falsifiable. It is true that it is normal for scum to not hold solid opinions, as this would make them accountable for their actions. It is also true that on the first day most people are going to feign confidence in order to stimulate discussion, when they don't really have that much to go on. Yet again there is an alternate explanation that Shady has simply refused to consider...
His third point is basically conjecture following from his other false premises, e.g. that the case on Kush is actually worth pursuing prior to day 2 etc.
The consistent elements of Shady’s play are:
1) A knee-jerk reaction policy against any form of dishonesty regardless of the underlying intention. A scum only needs to be sure that both his friend and himself are not going to lurk, and then they have license to interrogate lazy townies in the name of the town. This is not a good criteria for certified town excellence. Likewise, it is relatively easy for scum to not get caught in a lie that early in a game. Having this sort of warped black-and-white view is a great cover for picking on new players while keeping the focus of actual scum.
2) A tendency to pick easy lynches. I am desperately trying to prevent what I think is the mislynching of both Kush and WeeTee. It is not an easy path and I can more than understand lazier townies taking the path of least resistance. We have a time limit here, do not for a second think that mislynching less able town on day one is a good start. Think long and hard on what possible motives an experienced town player would have for taking the easiest mislynch possible.
3) He does not present falsifiable reads. He barely raises a finger to rule out possible intentions, while casting blame on people for actions which have multiple interpretations. In contrast, I clearly state a soon to be confirmed read on Kush, I rule out alternate hypotheses, and I move in people’s defence when they are being attacked unfairly. All my actions speak of town play, and all my town motivated reads on Shady have come up scummy. Yes I am appealing to my credibility, but I do so in a way that is direct and rational and I challenge you to question my assertions.
4) A blasé approach to who gets lynched. Experienced townies should feel the time constraints placed upon them to accurately identify scum. Shady does not act as if he cares, pooling in against the easiest target that happens to walk by. Read his filter and see!
5) Filling up the thread with calls to action for other members, and only flimsy and biased readings of his own. Again, look at his filter!
Now it's 2:30am and I just spent a looong time on this game. I was planning on writing a case against Dandel Ion but quite frankly I doubt there is any point in light of my case on Shady. If I survive the night shootings I will probably pursue him on the morrow if new data does not lead me down a different path. Please people, I am spending a lot of time and effort trying to rip this game open, at least read through the posts that took me infinitely longer to write. Do so with a critical eye as I have no reason to shy away.
Goodnight!
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@spags + anyone else that wants to comment
I don't like Shady as a d1 lynch for these reasons:
1. I think there is a legit meta case for shady being town. His aggression and tunneling so far does match Newbie Mafia IV where he got mislynched d1 as an overeager townie.
2. He has been active enough that I think that if he is mafia we will be able to catch him later based on stances he has taken.
3. As a general rule, lynching active but contriversial players D1 leads to mislynches.
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Also! @everyone please plan to be here around lynch time!
There is nothing worse for a town than for it to be afk when the lynch is going down!
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V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (2): thrawn2112, lvdr
kushm4sta (2): Shady Sands, WeeTee
lvdr (1): mkfuba07
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Presently, no one is set to be lynched! 4 hours remain in Day 1!
Dandel Ion, Alsn, kushm4sta have yet to vote!
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We need 5 votes to lynch right?
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On August 26 2012 01:47 Lvdr wrote:
@spags + anyone else that wants to comment
I don't like Shady as a d1 lynch for these reasons:
1. I think there is a legit meta case for shady being town. His aggression and tunneling so far does match Newbie Mafia IV where he got mislynched d1 as an overeager townie.
2. He has been active enough that I think that if he is mafia we will be able to catch him later based on stances he has taken.
3. As a general rule, lynching active but contriversial players D1 leads to mislynches.
Yeah. I read spags case against shady, but pretty much everything spags interpreted as scummy behavior are things that shady did in NMMXXIV as a townie and a lot of those things were directed specifically at me. The nitpicking, flippant use of FOS's, being overly aggressive in trying to get people to agree with him, and the non-falsifiable reads were all things town-shady did that game and it made everyone suspicious of him and he got mislynched. My read on shady is that he's in line with his town meta during the game I played with him. Based on my experience in newbie game 24 I don't think lynching shady for spag's reasons is a good idea.
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On August 26 2012 01:47 Lvdr wrote:
@spags + anyone else that wants to comment
I don't like Shady as a d1 lynch for these reasons:
1. I think there is a legit meta case for shady being town. His aggression and tunneling so far does match Newbie Mafia IV where he got mislynched d1 as an overeager townie.
2. He has been active enough that I think that if he is mafia we will be able to catch him later based on stances he has taken.
3. As a general rule, lynching active but contriversial players D1 leads to mislynches.
I agree entirely with #2 and #3, and with #1 as long as I add a bit to it. Shady is behaving as he did in XXIV, and we mislynched him. I do think that Spag's post raised good points (and I will try to comment on anything I disagree with before the lynch), but Lvdr's #2 covers my overall reaction to a D1 Shady lynch.
Dismissing Shady's play as following his town meta is a mistake. I did that throughout all of D1 in XXIV with YourHarry and as anyone who followed that game knows, that was a mistake. I'm not going to accept "it's his meta" to dismiss scummy behaviour, since a scummy town meta is, well, scummy. That being said, if Shady is scum, he is definitely catchable at a later date. In this, #2 and #3 will override my aversion to accepting #1.
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Since its getting down to the deadline I want to reveal my plan for d1 deadline:
I think we should lynch Dandel Ion
Dandel Ion is one of the most experienced players in this game, yet he has also been one of the most lurky. He has offered almost nothing but filler posts to appear active while doing basically no scumhunting. He is much too experienced to be as passive as he has been. The only time he has offered a FOS it has been to lightly suspect me, at a time when it was EXTREMELY safe to do so.
Read through his filter: it SCREAMS mafia lurking through D1. He offers just enough content to register as active without really contributing anything to town.
I am still suspicious of WeeTee, but I stand by my statement that lynching active but contriversial players D1 typically leads to mislynches. WeeTee could still be bad-townie or desperate-newb mafia, but I do not think he is the best D1 lynch target.
Finally, whatever happens town cannot allow there to be a no-lynch. Therefore I implore all townies to
##Vote:Dandel Ion
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Also, does anyone have any comments on my case on Lvdr? I'd like any feedback at all from someone who isn't myself or Lvdr.
@Dandel Ion, Alsn, kushm4sta
Please get a vote in soon. Scum already have the advantage during the lynch, so we need all of the information we can get asap. We know your vote may change, but who is your strongest scumread at the moment?
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5 votes are needed to lynch.
e: derp
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(players remaining+1)/2 = (9+1)/2 = 5
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On August 26 2012 02:54 ghost_403 wrote:
5 votes are needed to lynch.
That's what I said
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lol ghost we all know counting is hard !!
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Where is everyone? It's getting fairly close to deadline!
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@Lvdr
I looked through his filter, and Dandel lon does look quite scummy. In addition to what you've said, I'd like to add that he's promised twice to be present before the lynch (once "(well) before"), and hasn't appeared yet, with only three hours remaining. I'd like to hear anyone else's take on my case, as well as Dandel lon's response to your case, before switching my vote. If we don't hear from him at all, I'll certainly switch as I feel that you've now taken a significant stand on something.
@ghost
My mistake, my sight must be slipping Though I expect you to be modkilled for editing your post! >:|
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On August 26 2012 02:46 mkfuba07 wrote:
Also, does anyone have any comments on my case on Lvdr? I'd like any feedback at all from someone who isn't myself or Lvdr.
@Dandel Ion, Alsn, kushm4sta
Please get a vote in soon. Scum already have the advantage during the lynch, so we need all of the information we can get asap. We know your vote may change, but who is your strongest scumread at the moment?
I'll respond to some things that stick out. He accused your post of being fluffy and I do agree with that accusation. It was your 2nd post of the game and it happened 6 hours after your first post and didn't contain any reads so I see why he'd call you out on it. And you say that he hasn't participated that much in scumhunting but since that claim he's definitely ramped up his efforts. I'm gonna go with town read.
Shady what are your thoughts on the cases? A lot has happened since you last posted.
Concerning Dandel lon, I looked at his filter and correct me if I'm wrong but I can only see 1 time when he commits to a read. Does look like a scummy lurker. He'll be my #2 vote behind WeeTee. It's getting really close to the deadline and people that haven't voted are making it harder to make this decision. Once all the votes are in I will decide to go with my top scum read or the lurker scumread. I'm not in favor of a no lynch when my options are my top scumread and a viable lurker lynch.
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@Thrawn and Mkfuba
At this point I REALLY think Dandel is a much higher quality lynch than WeeTee. WeeTee is playing poorly, But Dandel is playing Scummy.
Scummy>bad
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Ok, had to take a nap for a few hours in order to be able to stay awake at lynch time, but now I'm back.
Boy did things happen in those few hours! First, I would generally like to agree with spag about kush/WT as I made clear in my earlier post that I only really wanted to lynch WT if there was no other option.
That being said, if I am to exclude them both as lynch targets today the cases presented so far are against Shady Sands, Lvdr and Dandel Ion. Seeing as I have already placed suspicion of my own against Shady, I absolutely understand where Spag is coming from. However, right now I'm more inclined to believe that he is overzealous, especially considering the fact that if we (mis)lynch someone else, he is one of the players that we have the most material on for analysis as outlined by Lvdr.
I would like to return to the discussion we had early about lurker lynching. From what we have gathered so far, the "lurkiest"(descending from most lurky) seem to be: Dandel Ion, mkfuba, WT, kush and arguably Lvdr and Spag. I feel that Lvdr and Spag has at least provided enough thoughts of their own that they can be considered non-lurky, and mkfuba to some degree has done this as well. You all know my opinion of WT/kush resembles that of Spag. This leaves Dandel Ion as a lurky player that we don't know very much about.
For this reason, I'm inclined to agree with Lvdr that Dandel Ion is a lynch that town should be able to get behind. I realize that mkfuba accusing Lvdr has merit, and I will address his concerns, but first.
##Vote Dandel Ion
@mkfuba: I entirely agree with your concerns regarding Lvdr, but I find his arguments for lynching Dandel Ion compelling. I also think that a (supposed) scum Lvdr has gotten away with posting way too little motivations for his reasoning. I called him out on more than one occasion for exactly that reason. I do believe that asking him to shape up during N1/D2 would reveal his intentions however. Also, while your case against Lvdr has some merit, I feel that your own motivations could easily be seen as scummy, for these resons I cannot get behind your case just yet.
@Spag: I agree with you that if you are wearing scum-tinted glasses, looking at Shady's behavior can easily be seen as scum, I need look no further than my own FoS to see that and your own case surely doesn't help me lose that suspicion. Like I said earlier in this post, I do believe we need to give him the benefit of the doubt as well however.
@everyone I urge you all to listen to Spag's argument regarding WT/kush, please instead get behind one of the other cases and tell us your reasons for doing so. I would like to repeat my earlier sentiment that if the only choice we have is between kushm4sta and WeeTee, my vote will go on WeeTee. I would however like to see us come to some kind of consensus at least an hour before lynch time. 2:40 to go.
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Just would like to point out that I will be reading this thread for all of the remainder of the day, so rest assured that if someone has something to say, I will read it.
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Okay, I'm here and going to post my current opinions.
Sorry I was pretty busy the last days, I would have liked to be more active too.
Bigger post coming soon(tm)
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On August 26 2012 03:21 Lvdr wrote:
@Thrawn and Mkfuba
At this point I REALLY think Dandel is a much higher quality lynch than WeeTee. WeeTee is playing poorly, But Dandel is playing Scummy.
Scummy>bad
Spag's argument is that weetee/kush are just playing badly and that's why they're getting all the attention. I'm gonna quote my response to spag's post:
On August 25 2012 22:33 thrawn2112 wrote:
@spaghetti
So you're saying that I should set aside my suspicions of WeeTee and see his behavior as poor play? I am more willing to do this for Kush because I think he more accurately fits the profile you outlined of someone who doesn't know what to do. Kush did commit very heavily too reads, in fact it was his 85% post that gave him the most attention. WeeTee didn't commit to reads, and when asked for reads he gave a reason why a player might be mafia, and reason why they might be town, and then dropped the subject without saying which he thought was more likely. Also, I can't ignore how he has still refused up to this point to give a read on lvdr. When he made that post where he FOS'd Alsn for being the only one to "chirp up" at kush's 85% statement, I looked at the thread and noticed that lvdr had strongly called out kush for that post. I asked WeeTee for his read on lvdr, and he did not give it. He continued posting in the thread so I asked him again. I continued asking him up until I went to sleep, and when I woke up he had still not responded. Even now, after making it part of my case against him, he still hasn't answered the question. Am I supposed to ignore this? I have called him out on it multiple times, it's been over 24 hours since I originally did it, and still he doesn't answer. I honestly can't think of any reason why a town-WeeTee would do that. I do not believe that he hasn't read the question. I asked him multiple times while he was still active during the beginning of the game, and I made it a major point of my case against him, and in his post where he says he is going to improve his play (top of the page) I included the question again as part of my response. He posted a 2nd time after that and even then he didn't even address the question or the fact that he had ignored it.
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@Thrawn I actually can see a possibility of a WeeTee Dandel scumteam, but I think that Dandel is still the best D1 lynch, and that WeeTee can be the subject of a lot of scrutiny D2. Still waiting for dandel responce too.
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Can we get an updated vote count?
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Can i get a sound off of who is here?
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On August 26 2012 03:44 Lvdr wrote:
Can i get a sound off of who is here?
I'm here at least until the night post
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V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (1): thrawn2112
kushm4sta (2): Shady Sands, WeeTee
lvdr (1): mkfuba07
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Dandel Ion (2): lvdr, alsn
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Presently, no one is set to be lynched! ~2 hours remain in Day 1!
Dandel Ion, kushm4sta have yet to vote!
e: I swear, the guy writing these posts is an idiot. Time left fix'd.
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To start things off, responding to lvdr's case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=15#285
Dandel Ion is one of the most experienced players in this game, yet he has also been one of the most lurky. He has offered almost nothing but filler posts to appear active while doing basically no scumhunting. He is much too experienced to be as passive as he has been. The only time he has offered a FOS it has been to lightly suspect me, at a time when it was EXTREMELY safe to do so.
This is a flat out lie.
I have played a SINGLE game of mafia so far. (not counting the half-day that got restarted)
lvdr, shady and mkfuba have all played more games, thrawn just as many.
I didn't really push anyone but you yet, since all the "cases" so far were pretty much just screaming "bad newbie" to me, instead of "scum". Then there was you VS Shady, which I consider to have not much to do with this game.
Well, since that is the extent of your case, I consider it adressed.
Since you all seem to want my reads, here we go. (thoughts on other people coming after this, I'm getting pretty annoyed by the whole OMGOMG I'M WAITING FOR HIS POST, so I just decided to split it up.)
WeeTee: The extent of his first ~10 posts was either 1) insulting people, 2) not contributing or 3) both.
His last post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=14#266) reads to me like he's just trying to secure a lynch on somebody else, no matter who it is
I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious?
In an earlier post, he FoS'd Alsn for going for the "easy lynch". Behold, just a little later he is doing the SAME thing, to the SAME person.
Even though he soft-defended him earlier.
The only other thing he has done so far is argue with thrawn.
He's not contributing and contradicting his own words.
Thus, Weetee is my strongest scum read at the moment
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EBWOP: Also,
##Vote WeeTee
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Looking back, I think spags went to bed... This is very disappointing to me I think he's putting a good amount of effort in, but we need his vote at deadline time, and I think his vote on Shady is quite low quality.
I am also looking askance at kush for not voting at all!! or being in the thread!!
As far as I can tell, Shady is MIA as well.
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On August 26 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:To start things off, responding to lvdr's case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=15#285Show nested quote +Dandel Ion is one of the most experienced players in this game, yet he has also been one of the most lurky. He has offered almost nothing but filler posts to appear active while doing basically no scumhunting. He is much too experienced to be as passive as he has been. The only time he has offered a FOS it has been to lightly suspect me, at a time when it was EXTREMELY safe to do so. This is a flat out lie.I have played a SINGLE game of mafia so far. (not counting the half-day that got restarted) lvdr, shady and mkfuba have all played more games, thrawn just as many. I didn't really push anyone but you yet, since all the "cases" so far were pretty much just screaming "bad newbie" to me, instead of "scum". Then there was you VS Shady, which I consider to have not much to do with this game. Well, since that is the extent of your case, I consider it adressed. Since you all seem to want my reads, here we go. (thoughts on other people coming after this, I'm getting pretty annoyed by the whole OMGOMG I'M WAITING FOR HIS POST, so I just decided to split it up.) WeeTee: The extent of his first ~10 posts was either 1) insulting people, 2) not contributing or 3) both. His last post ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=14#266) reads to me like he's just trying to secure a lynch on somebody else, no matter who it isShow nested quote +I will put a
FoS on Alsn for this
But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way.
Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush,
Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out?
and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious? In an earlier post, he FoS'd Alsn for going for the "easy lynch". Behold, just a little later he is doing the SAME thing, to the SAME person. Even though he soft-defended him earlier. The only other thing he has done so far is argue with thrawn. He's not contributing and contradicting his own words. Thus, Weetee is my strongest scum read at the moment
I think we can safely bandwagon onto Dandel now. Please lynch I take full responsibility!!
First of all, dandel tries to claim my case is mostly about experience or meta reads. Let me be clear: Dandel's filter has HARDCORE LURKING in it. Scummy, mafia, lurking.
Second, I think a good case has been laid out for WeeTee being a BAD choice of D1 lynch. Dandel's vote here is essentially 'I pick the more scummy of kush vs. WeeTee.' This also SCREAMS mafia. Also, if you read the end of Newbie III D1 (second time around) you see that Dandel is capable of decisive action towards a quality lynch for town. WeeTee is not a quality lynch!
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On August 26 2012 04:01 Lvdr wrote: Dandel's vote here is essentially 'I pick the more scummy of kush vs. WeeTee.' This also SCREAMS mafia.
I'm not seeing it, where did you get that from?
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Dandel had to make a pick for his vote. Kush and WeeTee have been two of the most scrutinized players, and they are by far the most obvious and non-controversial targets. He needs to provide a better lynch target than himself and those two are the major possibilities.
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Ahhh sorry guys I was sleeping. Yup I'm going to vote for WeeTee because I defended him then he voted for me?? Sorry but I just don't understand why anyone would vote for me since I am the most town out of anyone, as someone has already said. And I sacrificed my life to prove I am town, so it really pisses me off when someone votes for me.
##Vote WeeTee
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Kush Please vote for Dandel Ion, if you read up you'll see why I think he is a much better lynch target than WeeTee.
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Also format your vote properly.
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On August 26 2012 04:10 kushm4sta wrote:
Ahhh sorry guys I was sleeping. Yup I'm going to vote for WeeTee because I defended him then he voted for me??
That is an awful reason to vote for him. Your vote needs to be based on more than you being pissed off. At some point you're going to HAVE to start being more reasonable or you will eventually get lynched.
##FOS kushm4sta
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Town reads:
Alsn is my strongest town read at the moment. Posts well thought-out cases, seems to think about the game, nothing even remotely scummy. Just good play.
thrawn is being very active, but doesn't do "that much" actual scum-hunting. "that much" means in relation to his post-count. He did contribute though, and I get a solid town read on him.
mkfuba has been relatively quiet compared to thrawn/Alsn/lvdr, but he has contributed, and not shown flaws of logic. most likely town.
Spag has been the least active of those, in terms of posts. But I don't see anything in his posts that suggests he's scum. They also had good quality. Out of my town reads, he's closest to being a null-read, but I think it more likely he's town. About 60 : 40 if you don't mind me putting it in %.
Null reads:
Shady seems quick to jump onto people, for seemingly no strong reason. (This is actually indicative of his town "meta", when he was scum against me in XXIII, he was far more hesitant and reserved. I don't put too much stock into meta in general though) Had a big argument with lvdr for no apparant reason, except that they most likely carried the argument over from the other game. I don't like it, but I don't think it's scummy per se.
kush: I am reserving what to think about him until day 2. It's useless to speculate on him now, we'll see if his claim holds true or not. There's no rush here.
For the record, I don't and didn't believe him. It's a possibility, but I'm not buying it yet. But since he is a terrible day 1 lynch, I won't vote him.
lvdr's interactions with Shady are null to me, as I already outlined. He's been active and tried to keep the discussion alive day 1, which would be good for town, but he's done it in a... weird way, like his whole "shady is town" spiel at the start. I wouldn't be confident about him one way or the other.
As I write this, he's trying very hard to get my lynched. Maybe I'll have to change my judgement on him very soon, but for now I'll leave what I wrote in.
That leaves WeeTee as my only scum read atm.
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On August 26 2012 04:09 Lvdr wrote:
Dandel had to make a pick for his vote. Kush and WeeTee have been two of the most scrutinized players, and they are by far the most obvious and non-controversial targets. He needs to provide a better lynch target than himself and those two are the major possibilities.
To be fair, the current options are kush, weetee, yourself, himself, and shady. Most of us have made it clear that they don't want to vote for Shady atm, he won't vote for himself, most people have issues with my case (which I am agreeing with now that I feel you're contributing) and that leaves WeeTee and kush.
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@Thrawn/Kush Remember the point of lynches is to catch scum, not punish bad play.
Dandel actually looks scummy. I don't know wtf kush is doing, but the first move is to pick off Dandel!
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EBWOP: got totally ninja'd. Sorry for that.
Seconding the ##FoS on kushm4sta for his rage vote. We're really trying to give you a chance to step up. Don't OMGUS vote, don't use only WIFOM to support your reasoning, and actually comment on something that isn't a direct threat to you. Townies defend themselves most strongly through their actions, and you've been doing it in a pretty scummy way.
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On August 26 2012 04:01 Lvdr wrote:
I think we can safely bandwagon onto Dandel now. Please lynch I take full responsibility!!
First of all, dandel tries to claim my case is mostly about experience or meta reads. Let me be clear: Dandel's filter has HARDCORE LURKING in it. Scummy, mafia, lurking.
Second, I think a good case has been laid out for WeeTee being a BAD choice of D1 lynch. Dandel's vote here is essentially 'I pick the more scummy of kush vs. WeeTee.' This also SCREAMS mafia. Also, if you read the end of Newbie III D1 (second time around) you see that Dandel is capable of decisive action towards a quality lynch for town. WeeTee is not a quality lynch!
Are you even reading my responses?
It was 2 paragraphs:
1 saying you LIED about the experience thing.
1 saying I didn't HAVE strong reads to push. just "bad-town" reads. I was also too busy to spam this thread with useless posts like you did, hence why I'm "Lurking"
Make up your mind. You attack some for being too fast to push for easy and obvious lynches, you attack me for not pushing easy and obvious lynches.
I think you are trying very hard to cover up your blatant lie with your spam right now. And I can't see a town motivation for that.
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On August 26 2012 04:18 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:09 Lvdr wrote:
Dandel had to make a pick for his vote. Kush and WeeTee have been two of the most scrutinized players, and they are by far the most obvious and non-controversial targets. He needs to provide a better lynch target than himself and those two are the major possibilities.
To be fair, the current options are kush, weetee, yourself, himself, and shady. Most of us have made it clear that they don't want to vote for Shady atm, he won't vote for himself, most people have issues with my case (which I am agreeing with now that I feel you're contributing) and that leaves WeeTee and kush.
This is so spot on.
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On August 26 2012 04:09 Lvdr wrote:
Dandel had to make a pick for his vote. Kush and WeeTee have been two of the most scrutinized players, and they are by far the most obvious and non-controversial targets. He needs to provide a better lynch target than himself and those two are the major possibilities.
Kush is not an option for me day 1. It'd be far better to leave him until day 2. I don't wanna risk him being the JK, no matter how small I think this risk is. (and as I said, I do think it small)
weetee is my ONLY real option right now, apart from maybe shady or you.
I ain't gonna vote my town reads. And I'd much rather vote a scum read, than a null read.
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mkfuba/thrawn/kush i call on you to vote dandel and make this lynch happen!!
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On August 26 2012 04:23 Lvdr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:18 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 26 2012 04:09 Lvdr wrote:
Dandel had to make a pick for his vote. Kush and WeeTee have been two of the most scrutinized players, and they are by far the most obvious and non-controversial targets. He needs to provide a better lynch target than himself and those two are the major possibilities.
To be fair, the current options are kush, weetee, yourself, himself, and shady. Most of us have made it clear that they don't want to vote for Shady atm, he won't vote for himself, most people have issues with my case (which I am agreeing with now that I feel you're contributing) and that leaves WeeTee and kush. This is so spot on.
I was actually defending dandel lon with that post.
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Let me explain my vote for WeeTee. Basically there is no one else to vote for. I mean, I think shady is very suspicious put people have brought up good points about his meta and how everyone can just lynch him later. Dandel Ion I'm not going to vote for simply because one of the main reasons why people think he is mafia is because they say he has had a lot of experience. But he says that's a lie. So there goes the main reasoning behind suspecting him.
As for WeeTee, his motivation for voting for me makes no sense, also it pisses me off on a personal level, true, but that is only secondary to how it makes absolutely no sense. Therefore I am voting for him.
##vote WeeTee
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Can you guys help me out I'm a little confused. Since I have to say who I'm going to roleblock 5 minutes before to prove my innocence (although I will be killed tonight by mafia) I would like to know exactly what time I have to post 5 minutes before.
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On August 26 2012 04:44 kushm4sta wrote:
Let me explain my vote for WeeTee. Basically there is no one else to vote for. I mean, I think shady is very suspicious put people have brought up good points about his meta and how everyone can just lynch him later. Dandel Ion I'm not going to vote for simply because one of the main reasons why people think he is mafia is because they say he has had a lot of experience. But he says that's a lie. So there goes the main reasoning behind suspecting him.
As for WeeTee, his motivation for voting for me makes no sense, also it pisses me off on a personal level, true, but that is only secondary to how it makes absolutely no sense. Therefore I am voting for him.
##vote WeeTee
Kush do you have any idea how this game is played....
Dandel Ion I'm not going to vote for simply because one of the main reasons why people think he is mafia is because they say he has had a lot of experience. But he says that's a lie. So there goes the main reasoning behind suspecting him.
This is awful. Like.
As for WeeTee, his motivation for voting for me makes no sense, also it pisses me off on a personal level, true, but that is only secondary to how it makes absolutely no sense. Therefore I am voting for him.
This is your vote justification??!!
I feel like dandel is such a good d1 target. First his play was downright lurker/scummy for 95% of today. Second, if we go ahead on a WeeTee lynch, it feels like a silly mislynch on a bad-townie. However the sheer badness of kush's play is making me really look at him as more scummy.
Another thing is that there are only 2 scum. I really don't think its possible that kush/WeeTee is the scumteam, so at least 1 other person has to be scum. I feel good about the read that that person is Dandel.
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Kush... if you really are a townie, your play is atrocious right now. You clearly don't know how the game works and are playing in a throughly anti-town manner.
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@Lvdr
Just wanna let you know that I am still considering changing my vote but I need to hear from more people first. You think the WeeTee vote is based on poor play and I disagree. If a WeeTee lynch isn't possible then I will go for Dandel.
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Dandel is 100 times better of a lynch than weetee! Now that we have what i would consider questionable votes for weetee by dandel and kush I am even more convinced of the quality of a lynch on dandel.
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Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time.
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On August 26 2012 04:58 Lvdr wrote:
Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time.
Yeah i'm kinda irritated at shady, he was super active then goes afk from the thread.
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On August 26 2012 05:00 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:58 Lvdr wrote:
Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time. Yeah i'm kinda irritated at shady, he was super active then goes afk from the thread.
Dude shadys is hella mafia you will realize this soon. Also if WeeTee is mafia it will also be easy because he plays pretty bad.
So I guess I will cave to the pressure and vote dandel ion
##vote dandel ion
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V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (2): thrawn2112, Dandel Ion
kushm4sta (2): Shady Sands, WeeTee
lvdr (1): mkfuba07
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Dandel Ion (3): lvdr, alsn, kushm4sta
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Presently, no one is set to be lynched! <1 hours remain in Day 1!
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GUYS WE MUST AVOID A NO-LYNCH!! Switch to dandel cmon you guys!!
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Thrawn + Mkfuba on Dandel = gg
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On August 26 2012 05:08 Lvdr wrote:
GUYS WE MUST AVOID A NO-LYNCH!!
I agree but I'm gonna give it more time to hopefully hear from other players.
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Back in thread. Was golfing. Reading
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Shady look at that Votecount!! Do not let this be a no-lynch!
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On August 26 2012 05:00 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:58 Lvdr wrote:
Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time. Yeah i'm kinda irritated at shady, he was super active then goes afk from the thread.
I had an 1130 tee time cut me some slack, okay?
I was actually lurking the thread in the morning, but Spag said he had a case on me so I wanted to see what his case was before posting. Didn't want a repeat of XXIV.
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I dont buy Lvdr's Dandel case. I think he's trying to sheep town into a mislynch. More coming soon.
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Shady there is LESS THAN AN HOUR. We NEED to make a lynch. Trying for a wholesale vote change now is not a good idea.
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lvdr, why are you tunneling me so hard?
I really don't get it.
You spew a bunch of baseless accusations, and even lie. All your recent posts are just one-liners how "we NEEEEED to lynch Dandel"
You ingore what I say, or you twist my posts into fitting your agenda.
For what? to defend WeeTee?
Why is it so important to you that Wee stays alive?
I think you are trying to "defend" him by pushing to lynch me instead. I think you 2 are a scumteam. Since Wee is obviously not present. Or he's just content to let YOU do your thing.
Give me some reasons for tunneling me, apart from supposedly "lurking".
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I think we should vote Lvdr.
Looking through his filter all he's done in the past 12 hours is hijack the thread, point a bunch of fingers everywhere, and try to bully town into voting his read. Look at the following posts:
On August 26 2012 01:22 Lvdr wrote:@Dandel I see what you mean about carrying the argument, I will attempt to table it for now... I find it hard to separate Shady being overly aggressive from Shady being scummy. I would put him on the 'don't-lynch-D1-but-watch-for-future-scummyness' list. For d1 lynch I direct the towns attention to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=13#253To have no reads at this point is completely absurd. Also incredibly anti-town. Reeks of mafia playing too safe. Suspecting thrawn for being 'passive' is equally absurd. Thrawn has been active and productive. Not 100% confirmed town, but prolly the closest we have right now. Add in this comedy of a follow-up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=13#259Can I just say the entire post sucks? WeeTee says he has no reads and then comes at thrawn with You have refused to make a case and then OMGUS'ed someone for actually making a case against you. This is not even an argument, just an emotional appeal. ##vote: WeeTee
On August 26 2012 01:37 Lvdr wrote:@mkfuba My explanation of town/scum reads on shady 1. First town read maybe 35% confidence. Partially motivated by an actual read (that was early and incomplete), but much more in order to stimulate discussion. Not really a brillient play because many players are new and couldn't comment on metas, but I was trying. 2. Given that it was early, I basically reserve the right to change my mind. Townies cannot be afraid to share reads because if they change their minds, suddenly they're scummy. 3. I think Dandel may have a point about bringing arguments in from other games. Both me and Shady are in Normal III, and we suspect each other there too Hard to keep an impartial mind because I see many similar charactaristics across the games. For what its worth I think he's either town in both games or mafia in both games. 4. I would argue my FOS has been useful to town, there has been a good amount of discussion and I have been active in that. For example when I FOS'ed you, you hadn't posted much in the way of content -- now I would say you are active in scum hunting and so the FOS was successful.
On August 26 2012 02:42 Lvdr wrote:
Since its getting down to the deadline I want to reveal my plan for d1 deadline:
I think we should lynch Dandel Ion
Dandel Ion is one of the most experienced players in this game, yet he has also been one of the most lurky. He has offered almost nothing but filler posts to appear active while doing basically no scumhunting. He is much too experienced to be as passive as he has been. The only time he has offered a FOS it has been to lightly suspect me, at a time when it was EXTREMELY safe to do so.
Read through his filter: it SCREAMS mafia lurking through D1. He offers just enough content to register as active without really contributing anything to town.
I am still suspicious of WeeTee, but I stand by my statement that lynching active but contriversial players D1 typically leads to mislynches. WeeTee could still be bad-townie or desperate-newb mafia, but I do not think he is the best D1 lynch target.
Finally, whatever happens town cannot allow there to be a no-lynch. Therefore I implore all townies to
##Vote:Dandel Ion
First off, he says that we should go after Weetee for scummy posting and OMGUSing left and right. Then he says we shouldn't go for me, who was previously his #1 lynch target and the player he was tunneling for thirty straight hours and even faked a town read on. Then he says we should go for Dandel Ion, a player who he has barely mentioned in any of his prior posts.
What is Lvdr doing? He's scattering his reads about so aggressively prior to the lynch deadline in hopes he catch a townie away from the thread to secure a mislynch. Note that whenever someone responds to him he backs away from the claim and starts on someone else.
He finally settles on Dandel because there isn't enough time left in D1 for him to keep jumping his reads around. This cements my read on him. I am not going to sheep my vote to a scum.
## Vote Lvdr
Since it's majority lynch, and I see there are enough people active in the thread for the votes to pile on Lvdr, I urge everyone to vote him here.
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On August 26 2012 05:20 Lvdr wrote:
Shady there is LESS THAN AN HOUR. We NEED to make a lynch. Trying for a wholesale vote change now is not a good idea.
You're right, we NEED a lynch--a lynch on you. Quit using the deadline to bully people.
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@dandel
Prior to the deadline clusterfuck, I posted a case on you that your posting profile was extremely scummy. For the record both thrawn and mkfuba looked at your filter and agreed it looked scummy. At that point I decided you were by FAR the best lynch target, and I have yet to see a good reason to change that stance.
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On August 26 2012 05:26 Lvdr wrote:
@dandel
Prior to the deadline clusterfuck, I posted a case on you that your posting profile was extremely scummy. For the record both thrawn and mkfuba looked at your filter and agreed it looked scummy. At that point I decided you were by FAR the best lynch target, and I have yet to see a good reason to change that stance.
How are you so sure Thrawn and Mkfuba are town?
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My appeal to all townies:
Read Dandel's filter. Tell me it doesn't look like lurker scum. If you think so, vote for me and watch me flip green.
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##Unvote
Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.
For Dandel lon, his main defense against the accusations is that the main point of Lvdr's argument is that he's experienced and should be posting better. I don't think that that's the strongest aspect of Lvdr's case. The fact that until just recently everything Dandel lon's said was policy (acceptable to a point), comments that appear to be contributing (slightly suspicious), and wishy-washy reads (suspicious) with about 17 hours of lurking following it, is the heart of the matter for me. It's not just the lurking, it's the active lurking before that.
##vote Dandel lon
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EBWOP: That was really confusing. If you think Dandel is townie: vote for me and watch me flip green.
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V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (2): thrawn2112, Dandel Ion
kushm4sta (1): WeeTee
lvdr (1): Shady Sands
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Dandel Ion (4): lvdr, alsn, kushm4sta, mkfuba07
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Presently, no one is set to be lynched! 33 minutes remain in Day 1!
Everyone, check to make sure your vote is correct, and pipe up in thread if it's not.
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On August 26 2012 05:27 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:26 Lvdr wrote:
@dandel
Prior to the deadline clusterfuck, I posted a case on you that your posting profile was extremely scummy. For the record both thrawn and mkfuba looked at your filter and agreed it looked scummy. At that point I decided you were by FAR the best lynch target, and I have yet to see a good reason to change that stance. How are you so sure Thrawn and Mkfuba are town?
Since you've mentioned this, I was actually surprised to find myself on Dandel lon's townie list as well. I didn't think that my play has been much better than a null read at best. Though I may just be judging myself too harshly.
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@Thrawn You hold the lynch in your hand.
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On August 26 2012 05:28 Lvdr wrote:
My appeal to all townies:
Read Dandel's filter. Tell me it doesn't look like lurker scum. If you think so, vote for me and watch me flip green.
Except you're not green. You somehow know that thrawn and mkfuba agreeing with you lends towncred to your case, which means you somehow know that they are town, which means you are scum.
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On August 26 2012 05:30 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:26 Lvdr wrote:
@dandel
Prior to the deadline clusterfuck, I posted a case on you that your posting profile was extremely scummy. For the record both thrawn and mkfuba looked at your filter and agreed it looked scummy. At that point I decided you were by FAR the best lynch target, and I have yet to see a good reason to change that stance. How are you so sure Thrawn and Mkfuba are town? Since you've mentioned this, I was actually surprised to find myself on Dandel lon's townie list as well. I didn't think that my play has been much better than a null read at best. Though I may just be judging myself too harshly.
Yeah that list is dumb, but it's a conscious townread. Lvdr here is making a sub-conscious slip.
Basically Dandel is making a case that you are town.
Lvdr is somehow operating under the assumption that you are town.
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Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other.
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Shady, do you do any behavioral analysis at all? Having a town read on thrawn and mkfuba is good play. If you don't make any reads how can you decide who to lynch?
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I told you guys beforehand in the thread that I was gonna be busy today.
I just didn't have time to post my reads yet, and in the beginning, I didn't have reads I felt like I could push yet.
You're lynching me for being busy, and because Lvdr MADE UP arguments.
I don't get how you people DON'T find it's suspicious that he needs to lie to make a case.
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On August 26 2012 05:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other.
I don't want to waste my vote, and my prior read on WeeTee still stands. I'll hammer him if you're still not sold on Lvdr.
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On August 26 2012 05:30 Lvdr wrote:
@Thrawn You hold the lynch in your hand.
Recent posts from shady are making me doubt your case against Dandel. In light of that I'd rather have a no-lynch than lynching someone I don't think is scum.
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On August 26 2012 05:35 Lvdr wrote:
Shady, do you do any behavioral analysis at all? Having a town read on thrawn and mkfuba is good play. If you don't make any reads how can you decide who to lynch?
It's not bad play, but the way you're phrasing it means you assume 100% that they agreeing with you means green townies agreeing with you. You were saying "because mkfuba and thrawn agree with me then that adds weight to Dandel's case."
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Thrawn if Dandel flips red and we put jk on WeeTee that could be game right there. Amazing situation for town. Even if Dandel flips green, go ahead and lynch WeeTee/Me D2.
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On August 26 2012 05:36 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other. I don't want to waste my vote, and my prior read on WeeTee still stands. I'll hammer him if you're still not sold on Lvdr.
My strongest scumread remains at WeeTee.
Where the fuck did all the other players go
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On August 26 2012 05:39 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:36 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other. I don't want to waste my vote, and my prior read on WeeTee still stands. I'll hammer him if you're still not sold on Lvdr. My strongest scumread remains at WeeTee. Where the fuck did all the other players go
If Mkfuba doesn't vote WeeTee nobody gets lynched. And shouldn't WeeTee be in this thread?
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ebwop shouldn't weetee be in this thread seeing as how it's his neck on the chopping block?
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On August 26 2012 05:40 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:39 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 26 2012 05:36 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other. I don't want to waste my vote, and my prior read on WeeTee still stands. I'll hammer him if you're still not sold on Lvdr. My strongest scumread remains at WeeTee. Where the fuck did all the other players go If Mkfuba doesn't vote WeeTee nobody gets lynched. And shouldn't WeeTee be in this thread?
Your candidate is lvdr who has less votes than WeeTee.
This is really frustrating... it's hard to come to a consensus when less than half the town is posting.
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As I said, I think Weetee is leaving his defense to lvdr.
I suspect him to still be here and lurking, so he can last-minute switch to me....
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On August 26 2012 05:37 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:35 Lvdr wrote:
Shady, do you do any behavioral analysis at all? Having a town read on thrawn and mkfuba is good play. If you don't make any reads how can you decide who to lynch? It's not bad play, but the way you're phrasing it means you assume 100% that they agreeing with you means green townies agreeing with you. You were saying "because mkfuba and thrawn agree with me then that adds weight to Dandel's case."
There are only 2 mafia and I find it incredibly hard to believe they would put their eggs in one basket by both bandwagoning onto the same person (that they know is going to flip green and spell their doom down the line).
Therefore at least 1, and probably both of them are town. Their overall content, timing/context of their support, and gut feeling pegs them as town for me.
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On August 26 2012 05:29 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.
For Dandel lon, his main defense against the accusations is that the main point of Lvdr's argument is that he's experienced and should be posting better. I don't think that that's the strongest aspect of Lvdr's case. The fact that until just recently everything Dandel lon's said was policy (acceptable to a point), comments that appear to be contributing (slightly suspicious), and wishy-washy reads (suspicious) with about 17 hours of lurking following it, is the heart of the matter for me. It's not just the lurking, it's the active lurking before that.
##vote Dandel lon
Okay. Mkfuba, you hold the hammer. I don't get how you can view WeeTee's actual vote and KushM4sta-level anti-town play as being less worth a vote than Dandel's "active lurking."
Furthermore, if Dandel is as experienced as people suggest, it is better to have him around than a terrible poster who won't contribute to scumhunt.
Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee.
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On August 26 2012 05:42 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:40 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:39 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 26 2012 05:36 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
Vote count?
WeeTee is still my strongest scumread. Those of you that think lvdr is trying to avoid a vote for weetee should consider voting for WeeTee. WeeTee still hasn't given his read on lvdr and he's been the most noncommittal about everything else.
If WeeTee gets lynched and flips red then it's very likely that lvdr is also red. WeeTee being scum would indicate that WT/lvdr are protecting each other. I don't want to waste my vote, and my prior read on WeeTee still stands. I'll hammer him if you're still not sold on Lvdr. My strongest scumread remains at WeeTee. Where the fuck did all the other players go If Mkfuba doesn't vote WeeTee nobody gets lynched. And shouldn't WeeTee be in this thread? Your candidate is lvdr who has less votes than WeeTee. This is really frustrating... it's hard to come to a consensus when less than half the town is posting.
I already said I'd hammer WeeTee if it looked like he was going to get lynched.
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I am willing to switch to WeeTee, as I've stated that I still find him suspicious, though we need three more votes on him for a lynch. Can we get that?
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@Thrawn No-Lynch would be a disaster!! How do you expect us to move forward!! Lynch me before you no-lynch plz...
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But I still think we should be lynching Lvdr here. I can't believe that we're somehow letting him get away with trying to sheep town in 8 different directions and wagon whoever is AFK from thread.
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Alright if the Dandel lynch is impossible, I will switch to WeeTee in the interest of getting a lynch. Still think dandel is better.
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On August 26 2012 05:45 mkfuba07 wrote:
I am willing to switch to WeeTee, as I've stated that I still find him suspicious, though we need three more votes on him for a lynch. Can we get that?
Okay. ##Vote WeeTee
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##Unvote
##vote WeeTee
I do feel reluctant for reasons that I can't quite explain, but I truly want to avoid a no-lynch, and WeeTee is my second scumread anyway.
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oops ##unvote
##Vote:WeeTee
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V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (5): thrawn2112, Dandel Ion, Shady Sands, mkfuba07, lvdr
kushm4sta (1): WeeTee
lvdr (0):
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Dandel Ion (2): alsn, kushm4sta
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Presently, WeeTee is set to be lynched! 10 minutes remain in Day 1!
Everyone, check to make sure your vote is correct, and pipe up in thread if it's not.
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fucking majority lynch
time to go get high
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I do believe we have enough for a lynch now. Whew.
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I'm gonna go to a sweetcorn festival, but getting high sounds like a good time too.
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On August 26 2012 05:53 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'm gonna go to a sweetcorn festival, but getting high sounds like a good time too.
I imagine they'd go together pretty well
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##unvote
##Vote WeeTee
My net has been down for about 30 minutes, but it seems like WeeTee is the agreed lynch. Changing my vote so there's no last minute switching funny business.
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What a time to wake up.
Slow typing is not going to help this cause.
The only reason I haven't put the reads out shady asked is because I just can't be sure.
He mentioned I didn't address it, but I have. Obviously none of your read my posts even though you have suspected me so heavily.
Causing confusion being a sign of scum is my position on Kush because he confused the life out of me with revealing role - which I didn't even know was allowed.
This is a stupid and idiotic lynch based on once again bad posting.
If I get lynched at least analyse my posts later on to determine who was the cause of the miss lynch.
Because it sucks to know you aren't reading them the way I understand them.
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EBWOP
I do not mean shady in the first instance it should read.
thrawn by way of shady.
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I see this is happening than let my parting suspicion go out to thrawn.
A miss lynch seems so much more appropriate in these times and this is his bandwagon.
Well played sir
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On August 26 2012 05:04 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:00 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 26 2012 04:58 Lvdr wrote:
Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time. Yeah i'm kinda irritated at shady, he was super active then goes afk from the thread. Dude shadys is hella mafia you will realize this soon. Also if WeeTee is mafia it will also be easy because he plays pretty bad. So I guess I will cave to the pressure and vote dandel ion ##vote dandel ion
He sheeps onto Dandel and then goes AFK from thread. But Lvdr doesn't attack him. What?
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On August 26 2012 06:00 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:04 kushm4sta wrote:On August 26 2012 05:00 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 26 2012 04:58 Lvdr wrote:
Also, I am still super disappointed that people are just missing at the key lynch time. Yeah i'm kinda irritated at shady, he was super active then goes afk from the thread. Dude shadys is hella mafia you will realize this soon. Also if WeeTee is mafia it will also be easy because he plays pretty bad. So I guess I will cave to the pressure and vote dandel ion ##vote dandel ion He sheeps onto Dandel and then goes AFK from thread. But Lvdr doesn't attack him. What?
Because Lvdr think's I'm scum I presume.
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DAY 1 FINAL VOTE COUNT:
WeeTee (6): thrawn2112, Dandel Ion, Shady Sands, mkfuba07, lvdr, alsn
kushm4sta (1): WeeTee
lvdr (0):
Shady Sands (1): Spaghetticus
Dandel Ion (1): kushm4sta
WeeTee was lynched by the town!
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End of Day 1
![[image loading]](http://www.screentekinc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Old-Computer.jpg) Figure 2. Computers in submarines aren't as fancy as you would expect.
There are two kinds of ways that people can die on a submarine. The first is as an accident. Something, somewhere, goes horribly, horribly wrong, and the unthinkable happens. The second is as part of a war. People fight, people die. Sabotage normally counts as the second, unless no one knows that sabotage took place. And, thanks to a "glitch" in the computer system, the people of the ship believed that the death of Marvellosity happened to be the former.
And because of this, his death became one of those kind of things that someone needed to write about in an official report. This official report would be relayed back to the TL Main Fleet, read over by someone who had the unfortunate honor of reading such a thing, and then promptly filed where no one would read it ever again. Well, that's what happens most of the time. Every once in a while, the person reading over the report has a higher ranking officer looking over their shoulders, and decides to do something about this. The official report mentioned a "computer malfunction" as the official cause of death, so naturaly, the person in charge of the computers needed to be examined to make sure that such a thing never happened again.
Keirathi, the captain of the vessel, recieved a command from the main fleet telling him to investigate WeeTee, the officer in charge of the computer, to find out exactly what had happened. When Keirathi showed up to WeeTee's quarters, he found him at his terminal, going over the ships logs for the last couple of days. He had found a problem with the logs, and had managed to recover some data showing that ghost_403 had been present on the ship at the time of the incident. Keirathi assumed that WeeTee knew something about what had happened, and ordered some men to take WeeTee to the brigg for the time being.
Two officers on the ship were to take WeeTee to the brigg. One of them had been friends with Marvellosity for years, and took it on himself to repay WeeTee in kind for his friend's untimely death.
WeeTee, the vanilla townie was lynched!
Night 1 has begun! You have 24 hours to submit any night actions.
Note that there are no clues this game. Any names used above are purely for flavor.
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Good thing I spent so much time protecting my scum partner...
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Where did Kush go?
FoS KushM4sta
How long are we going to go tolerating his sheeping OMGUS bullshit?
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I like a Dandel/Shady Scumteam right now.
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On August 26 2012 06:11 Lvdr wrote:
I like a Dandel/Shady Scumteam right now.
Right, that makes so much sense for both scum to put their eggs in one basket by both bandwagoning onto the same person.
On August 26 2012 05:44 Lvdr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:37 Shady Sands wrote:On August 26 2012 05:35 Lvdr wrote:
Shady, do you do any behavioral analysis at all? Having a town read on thrawn and mkfuba is good play. If you don't make any reads how can you decide who to lynch? It's not bad play, but the way you're phrasing it means you assume 100% that they agreeing with you means green townies agreeing with you. You were saying "because mkfuba and thrawn agree with me then that adds weight to Dandel's case." There are only 2 mafia and I find it incredibly hard to believe they would put their eggs in one basket by both bandwagoning onto the same person (that they know is going to flip green and spell their doom down the line). Therefore at least 1, and probably both of them are town. Their overall content, timing/context of their support, and gut feeling pegs them as town for me.
Oh wait.
Lvdr, now your later lies are contradicting your earlier lies. Which ones should we believe?
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gonna watch sci channel and sleep so goodbye for now. last few hours have been mentally exhausting to say the least.
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I still suspect Dandel for all the reasons I stated earlier. WeeTee was absolutely his best chance for a mislynch, basically the only diversion he could have thrown out, and he got it! Shady put his focus on me, showing a division between the players that is completely necessary for the mafia to NOT have just bandwagoned WeeTee together.
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And shady, you relentlessly accused me of protecting WeeTee because he was my scum partner... WeeTee flipped Green!!!!
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On August 26 2012 06:25 Lvdr wrote:
And shady, you relentlessly accused me of protecting WeeTee because he was my scum partner... WeeTee flipped Green!!!!
Quit making things up. I never accused you of protecting WT.
This is the only time I wrote about you and WeeTee together.
First off, he says that we should go after Weetee for scummy posting and OMGUSing left and right. Then he says we shouldn't go for me, who was previously his #1 lynch target and the player he was tunneling for thirty straight hours and even faked a town read on. Then he says we should go for Dandel Ion, a player who he has barely mentioned in any of his prior posts.
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I fail to see how the above paragraph shows anything close to what you're accusing me of.
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My fault the explicit quote was from Dandel
For what? to defend WeeTee?
Why is it so important to you that Wee stays alive?
I think you are trying to "defend" him by pushing to lynch me instead. I think you 2 are a scumteam. Since Wee is obviously not present. Or he's just content to let YOU do your thing.
In terms of accusations from you that look ridiculous now, how about this?
What is Lvdr doing? He's scattering his reads about so aggressively prior to the lynch deadline in hopes he catch a townie away from the thread to secure a mislynch. Note that whenever someone responds to him he backs away from the claim and starts on someone else.
But I still think we should be lynching Lvdr here. I can't believe that we're somehow letting him get away with trying to sheep town in 8 different directions and wagon whoever is AFK from thread.
You're either playing a superb anti-town game, or you're scum.
I'm going to step away because I am clearly getting heated.
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On August 26 2012 06:41 Lvdr wrote:My fault the explicit quote was from Dandel Show nested quote +For what? to defend WeeTee?
Why is it so important to you that Wee stays alive?
I think you are trying to "defend" him by pushing to lynch me instead. I think you 2 are a scumteam. Since Wee is obviously not present. Or he's just content to let YOU do your thing. In terms of accusations from you that look ridiculous now, how about this? Show nested quote +What is Lvdr doing? He's scattering his reads about so aggressively prior to the lynch deadline in hopes he catch a townie away from the thread to secure a mislynch. Note that whenever someone responds to him he backs away from the claim and starts on someone else. Show nested quote +But I still think we should be lynching Lvdr here. I can't believe that we're somehow letting him get away with trying to sheep town in 8 different directions and wagon whoever is AFK from thread. You're either playing a superb anti-town game, or you're scum. I'm going to step away because I am clearly getting heated.
Except my accusations were based on your posts and activity, while yours were based off mistaking someone else's posts for mine. How that means I am the one playing anti-town is beyond me.
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On August 26 2012 06:09 Shady Sands wrote:
Where did Kush go?
FoS KushM4sta
How long are we going to go tolerating his sheeping OMGUS bullshit?
Hi I'm here. I didn't vote for WeeTee beacuse I'm smart and I know hes not mafia. Its dandel and shady who are my two top picks.
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On August 26 2012 06:11 Lvdr wrote:
I like a Dandel/Shady Scumteam right now.
I agree with this 100% guys. I have been saying it all along.
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Also sorry for posting 3 times, but can someone tell me the exact time I should say who Im goign to roleblock because I'm afraid im going to miss it.
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Sorry guys... I did set an alarm but apparently forgot to turn it on... either that or I turned it off in my sleep... Craaaaaap.
I am not at all happy with how this went down, if I had have been here I probably could have got the bandwagon onto Dandel Ion, which was IMO a much, much better lynch. This is particularly infuriating considering I was going to make a case vs Dandel but my protection of Kush and WeeTee, and my case against Shady, took far too long, and by this time I was pretty much in a zombie state.
Okay it is night time so we need to adjust our scopes and think about night play.
- The JK is almost certainly going to use his action to prove his innocence, that is, the Kush debacle. The town may want to consider trusting Kush to try and actually make use of his ability, I personally believe Kush to be the least questionable town due to his willingness to prove it. If WeeTee was town, then Kush is almost certainly town. We should, if possible, try to utilise him while we have him, rather than wasting valuable JK actions on proving an already certain town to be town.
- I want people to focus in on Shady and Dandel, I will eat my hat without sauce or water if both of these players flip green.
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@Kush
I do not know exactly what time you need to do this, I suggest you use the query font (I believe it is green and bolded) to ask a mod who would know this thing.
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Okay guys, we need to incorporate data from the lynching into our guesses, decide if we want to use our JK or have him prove his innocence, try and inform our cop of who would be the most useful to investigate, and make our positions clear as to how we think we were manipulated into a mislynch.
Their is also an impending nightkilling, so if you are town, you should make sure you get everything off your chest now as there is a real possibility you won't get the chance to say it.
I am gonna go get some brekky and mull over the lynching for awhile.
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When does the nightkilling happen because there is a 100 percent change I will be killed.
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It will happen just before day two. You would be a safe kill for the mafia, but whether you are nightkilled or not depends on how conservative their play is. I am sure there are better options for them out there, but those options would have significant risk attached.
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On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo.
Dandel this post doesn't make very much sense. After reading that post I have absolutely no idea what read you were giving on kush. You use as you said, arguments that are "all pretty WIFOM" and assign a null tell to mkfuba's point about kush seeming to be alone. Then you say you "think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part." And then you say that his JK claim is "not very believable." So which is it? You say you will reserve judgement on him till he explains his JK claim but I think it's perfectly obvious why both a scum or town kush would roleclaim. Newb-town kush would do it out of desperation, and scum kush would do it as a scare tactic to avoid getting lynched. I don't see why you would need to see his explanation for why he claimed blue before you can give a read on him.
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Dandel wants to know why I roleclaimed.
It was because the entire town was against me, due to me being a bad townie. I figure if I'm going to be killed by town anyway, I would rather prove my innocence to town and force mafia to essentially waste a kill on me.
Here is why I believe roleclaiming confirms that I am town. And I have said this many times before but I guess everyone skips my posts because they re so bad. I will say who I am going to roleblock. Then that person can confirm that I roleblocked them, which proves that I AM JK. I cannot prove it now but by tomorrow it will be proven.
Roleclaiming is a self sacrificial action on my part and everyone should be thanking me for it. I realize how worthless I am as a townie so I am taking the bullet for someone who is better town. Please understand this and love me for it.
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Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down.
Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1.
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As far as night actions go, whoever is cop should investigate Dandel lon. There is no framer or miller in this game so you won't have to worry about getting an incorrect read. Obviously you shouldn't roleclaim cop this early on so keep it to yourself... I think an investigation on Dandel will give you the most useful information you could get at this point.
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On August 26 2012 14:48 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo. Dandel this post doesn't make very much sense. After reading that post I have absolutely no idea what read you were giving on kush. You use as you said, arguments that are "all pretty WIFOM" and assign a null tell to mkfuba's point about kush seeming to be alone. Then you say you "think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part." And then you say that his JK claim is "not very believable." So which is it? You say you will reserve judgement on him till he explains his JK claim but I think it's perfectly obvious why both a scum or town kush would roleclaim. Newb-town kush would do it out of desperation, and scum kush would do it as a scare tactic to avoid getting lynched. I don't see why you would need to see his explanation for why he claimed blue before you can give a read on him.
This is exactly what I was saying here:
On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo. First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr. Furthermore, I don't get why on one hand you understand how mkfuba can see the claim as a town-tell but on the other hand act completely confused about kush.
I honestly have no idea how this post makes much sense at all. Either you believe Kush or you don't, Dandel. And if you don't, Kush is a clear lynch.
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On August 26 2012 07:02 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 06:09 Shady Sands wrote:
Where did Kush go?
FoS KushM4sta
How long are we going to go tolerating his sheeping OMGUS bullshit? Hi I'm here. I didn't vote for WeeTee beacuse I'm smart and I know hes not mafia. Its dandel and shady who are my two top picks.
You haven't offered a single shred of analysis or evidence back this up. And apart from repeating my name over and over again, you haven't contributed to the scumhunt at all. You even actively sheeped your D1 vote. And you roleclaiming JK is just anti-town, period. It's at best a null tell or gives scum an easy bluesnipe, and at worst (and probably) is an attempt to fakeclaim and bait the real JK to counterclaim. And the really bad part is that you did it purely because instead of defending yourself by making cases you defended yourself by OMGUSing with one liner posts and never contributing any independent analysis at all.
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On August 26 2012 10:49 Spaghetticus wrote:
Sorry guys... I did set an alarm but apparently forgot to turn it on... either that or I turned it off in my sleep... Craaaaaap.
I am not at all happy with how this went down, if I had have been here I probably could have got the bandwagon onto Dandel Ion, which was IMO a much, much better lynch. This is particularly infuriating considering I was going to make a case vs Dandel but my protection of Kush and WeeTee, and my case against Shady, took far too long, and by this time I was pretty much in a zombie state.
Okay it is night time so we need to adjust our scopes and think about night play.
- The JK is almost certainly going to use his action to prove his innocence, that is, the Kush debacle. The town may want to consider trusting Kush to try and actually make use of his ability, I personally believe Kush to be the least questionable town due to his willingness to prove it. If WeeTee was town, then Kush is almost certainly town. We should, if possible, try to utilise him while we have him, rather than wasting valuable JK actions on proving an already certain town to be town.
- I want people to focus in on Shady and Dandel, I will eat my hat without sauce or water if both of these players flip green.
How do you know that WT flipping green makes Kush green?
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Meh.
Work just cut into my freetime like knife into butter.
I didn't know it would, or I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. But now I'm here.
I'll have about ~2 hours of time today in the evening. And probably the same amount for the rest of the week.
Not that I expect this time will help any, with how it looks. So I'm just gonna play GW2 for most of that. I'd much rather do that anyways. If my best fucking efforts to still be active despite everything are still not enough, no need to bother.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore.
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On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh.
Work just cut into my freetime like knife into butter.
I didn't know it would, or I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. But now I'm here.
I'll have about ~2 hours of time today in the evening. And probably the same amount for the rest of the week.
Not that I expect this time will help any, with how it looks. So I'm just gonna play GW2 for most of that. I'd much rather do that anyways. If my best fucking efforts to still be active despite everything are still not enough, no need to bother.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore.
What the hell? Town hasn't been pushing you nearly as hard as Kush or WT or even me, for that matter. If you've got some time now, spit out your reads. And asking to quit like this is just bad play. If you're going to AFK from thread because you don't like the game anymore, PM a mod, don't say it in the thread.
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It's not that I'm getting pressured.
I really have shit to do, believe it or not.
If you want me to pz out and get replaced, I can do it. But I don't see the point.
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On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh.
Work just cut into my freetime like knife into butter.
I didn't know it would, or I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. But now I'm here.
I'll have about ~2 hours of time today in the evening. And probably the same amount for the rest of the week.
Not that I expect this time will help any, with how it looks. So I'm just gonna play GW2 for most of that. I'd much rather do that anyways. If my best fucking efforts to still be active despite everything are still not enough, no need to bother.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore.
So what are you going to do? This statement...
On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
...makes it look like you are going to stay in the game. But if you don't care about the game, then why would you remain in it? If you truly don't want to play anymore then you should drop out and ask for a replacement.
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@thrawn you are right about that last minute change to weetee to protect dandel ion being very suspecious. Let us see who precipitated this change...
the first person so start changing peoples minds was shady.
On August 26 2012 05:15 Shady Sands wrote:
I dont buy Lvdr's Dandel case. I think he's trying to sheep town into a mislynch. More coming soon.
His case was basically Lvdr had accused 3 different people, which discredits him because is too many, even though shady himself has accused I think 4 people.
Then later there is this gem.
On August 26 2012 05:44 Shady Sands wrote:
Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee.
Who can have a 100% read day 1? It's impossible.
Furthermore, he has not explained why he is the only person who still suspects me. I mean many people have said it, my innocence can be CONFIRMED. Yet he still wants to lynch me and suspects me? I guess he is just ignoring this glaring inconsistency under the guise of not wanting to discuss me because I'm a waste of time. Yet he will waste time calling me out when im absent from the thread for a few hours.
And now for his latest remark.
On August 26 2012 20:10 Shady Sands wrote:
Either you believe Kush or you don't, Dandel. And if you don't, Kush is a clear lynch.
It's not either you believe me or you don't. Have you ever heard of uncertainty, shady? Or are you just pressuring people into lynching townies again?
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eeh, guess I'm gonna ask for a replacement.
Don't think it'll do shit, but w/e you guys want.
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On August 26 2012 20:33 Dandel Ion wrote:
eeh, guess I'm gonna ask for a replacement.
Don't think it'll do shit, but w/e you guys want.
Ok. Leave your final reads here so that we have something to work off of.
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My reads before the flip:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=16#314
Pretty much the same now, except that Lvdr has lied on multiple occasions now.
It's puzzeling that nobody seems to have a problem with that, but w/e.
I don't believe kush's claim, and somebody asked me why I didn't vote for him then. It should be a no-brainer, but:
If he isn't JK, it's gonna come out after night 1.
If he is, we have a JK.
No matter how small I find the possibility, lynching kush day 1 would have been the worst play in fucking history, and I may be a lot of things, but I'm not THAT much of a moron.
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On August 26 2012 20:44 Dandel Ion wrote:My reads before the flip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=16#314Pretty much the same now, except that Lvdr has lied on multiple occasions now. It's puzzeling that nobody seems to have a problem with that, but w/e. I don't believe kush's claim, and somebody asked me why I didn't vote for him then. It should be a no-brainer, but: If he isn't JK, it's gonna come out after night 1. If he is, we have a JK. No matter how small I find the possibility, lynching kush day 1 would have been the worst play in fucking history, and I may be a lot of things, but I'm not THAT much of a moron.
Ok. So is your read on Lvdr that he is scum now or not?
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Damn this latest development with dandel ion not giving a shit makes both him and shady seem quite innocent.
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On August 26 2012 20:31 kushm4sta wrote:@thrawn you are right about that last minute change to weetee to protect dandel ion being very suspecious. Let us see who precipitated this change... the first person so start changing peoples minds was shady. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:15 Shady Sands wrote:
I dont buy Lvdr's Dandel case. I think he's trying to sheep town into a mislynch. More coming soon. His case was basically Lvdr had accused 3 different people, which discredits him because is too many, even though shady himself has accused I think 4 people. Then later there is this gem. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:44 Shady Sands wrote:
Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee. Who can have a 100% read day 1? It's impossible. Furthermore, he has not explained why he is the only person who still suspects me. I mean many people have said it, my innocence can be CONFIRMED. Yet he still wants to lynch me and suspects me? I guess he is just ignoring this glaring inconsistency under the guise of not wanting to discuss me because I'm a waste of time. Yet he will waste time calling me out when im absent from the thread for a few hours. And now for his latest remark. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:10 Shady Sands wrote:
Either you believe Kush or you don't, Dandel. And if you don't, Kush is a clear lynch. It's not either you believe me or you don't. Have you ever heard of uncertainty, shady? Or are you just pressuring people into lynching townies again?
Again, Kush isn't listening to others or making a good case. My case on Lvdr is not in how many people he was accusing but the way in which he was doing it. He was FoSing and voting people without giving them a chance to respond, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. And he was rapidly switching his targets as he did so. This is a classic scum technique to find out who is AFK/busy so they can set up a mislynch wagon, especially given that most of the town was undecided at that point.
And I did explain why I suspect you. Read this post:
On August 26 2012 20:19 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 07:02 kushm4sta wrote:On August 26 2012 06:09 Shady Sands wrote:
Where did Kush go?
FoS KushM4sta
How long are we going to go tolerating his sheeping OMGUS bullshit? Hi I'm here. I didn't vote for WeeTee beacuse I'm smart and I know hes not mafia. Its dandel and shady who are my two top picks. You haven't offered a single shred of analysis or evidence back this up. And apart from repeating my name over and over again, you haven't contributed to the scumhunt at all. You even actively sheeped your D1 vote. And you roleclaiming JK is just anti-town, period. It's at best a null tell or gives scum an easy bluesnipe, and at worst (and probably) is an attempt to fakeclaim and bait the real JK to counterclaim. And the really bad part is that you did it purely because instead of defending yourself by making cases you defended yourself by OMGUSing with one liner posts and never contributing any independent analysis at all.
I can't explain why I'm the only person that suspects you because that would mean I could magically mind read other people's logic. I don't buy your JK claim at all. Never have, never will, unless you die and flip JK. Even if someone else claims they were RB'd, it could just be your scumbuddy in which case woohoo! We have our two scum.
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On August 26 2012 20:48 kushm4sta wrote:
Damn this latest development with dandel ion not giving a shit makes both him and shady seem quite innocent.
Why, because he's playing like you now?
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Now that Dandel is going to be replaced what does everyone think about him being a D2 lynch target? Whoever the replacement is, I don't think we should ask them to defend anything that Dandel said earlier in the thread. The replacement should only be held accountable for his/her posts. I say each person should evaluate Dandel's posts and form a read on them and then leave his case at that for the time being. (my read is scummy) But until the replacement has a chance to post and scumhunt we shouldn't go for a lynch on them unless their N1/D2 actions are scummy.
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My thoughts on it are that I would much prefer a lynch on Shady, as although I am suspicious of Dandel, this recent lack of interest is either a very good self bus play, or genuine disinterest, which I would not expect from a scum player.
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On August 26 2012 21:33 Spaghetticus wrote:
My thoughts on it are that I would much prefer a lynch on Shady, as although I am suspicious of Dandel, this recent lack of interest is either a very good self bus play, or genuine disinterest, which I would not expect from a scum player.
Is your case the same or do you have anything else to add because I wasn't convinced by your original case.
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And is it just me or has Kush suddenly become easily understandable? I don't only refer to how he is generally presenting a similar position to me, but his writing has improved faster than I thought possible.
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On August 26 2012 21:36 Spaghetticus wrote:
And is it just me or has Kush suddenly become easily understandable? I don't only refer to how he is generally presenting a similar position to me, but his writing has improved faster than I thought possible.
That is because I had no idea what was going on and now I understand better how this game works.
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On August 26 2012 21:33 Spaghetticus wrote:
My thoughts on it are that I would much prefer a lynch on Shady, as although I am suspicious of Dandel, this recent lack of interest is either a very good self bus play, or genuine disinterest, which I would not expect from a scum player.
Why?
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@Shady Sands
There is one thing in your post I agree with, the last part.
On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't buy your JK claim at all. Never have, never will, unless you die and flip JK. Even if someone else claims they were RB'd, it could just be your scumbuddy in which case woohoo! We have our two scum.
That is why people should decide who I RB. They can pick the least scummy person to minimize the chance that it will be my "scumbuddy."
As for lvdr, I find your case against him an exaggeration.
On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Again, Kush isn't listening to others or making a good case. My case on Lvdr is not in how many people he was accusing but the way in which he was doing it. He was FoSing and voting people without giving them a chance to respond, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. And he was rapidly switching his targets as he did so. This is a classic scum technique to find out who is AFK/busy so they can set up a mislynch wagon, especially given that most of the town was undecided at that point.
He claims he FOSed a bunch of people rapidly because he was trying to prevent lurkers. He uses the FOS differently than he should perhaps but to me it makes sense.
Yes he voted for weetee at first then change his vote to dandelion, but why would mafia do that if weetee was town anyway? Also many people changed their vote from dandelion to weetee. Changing your vote does not make you mafia.
@thrawn You have actually been riding shady's dick quite hard this game. I'm not saying it makes you suspicious but maybe you are putting too much stock in his meta.
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On August 26 2012 22:05 kushm4sta wrote:That is why people should decide who I RB. They can pick the least scummy person to minimize the chance that it will be my "scumbuddy."
It wouldn't be absolute proof. You could always get roleblocked by mafia and then your roleblock wouldn't go through.
Is that what would happen? If player A submits a roleblock on player B and player B submits a roleblock on player C will player C be roleblocked?
On August 26 2012 22:05 kushm4sta wrote:@thrawn You have actually been riding shady's dick quite hard this game. I'm not saying it makes you suspicious but maybe you are putting too much stock in his meta.
I'm extremely familiar with shady's super aggressive and nit-picky town play. I was tunneled by him so hard in newbie game 24 that I ended up voting for him thinking that "no way a town player would be like this" and he ended up flipping green. I'll go through his filter again and see if his actions appear scum/town motivated.
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On August 26 2012 22:23 thrawn2112 wrote:
It wouldn't be absolute proof. You could always get roleblocked by mafia and then your roleblock wouldn't go through
Oh no. I reread the rules. The scum RB is just going to RB me, so my RB isn't going to go through. I did not realize this.
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On August 26 2012 22:53 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 22:23 thrawn2112 wrote:
It wouldn't be absolute proof. You could always get roleblocked by mafia and then your roleblock wouldn't go through Oh no. I reread the rules. The scum RB is just going to RB me, so my RB isn't going to go through. I did not realize this.
It's hypothetical scenarios like that which makes your jk claim kinda silly to think about. You would do better to show that you are town by scumhunting. I see right now that you are most suspicious of shady and I'm about to post on that so let me know what you think of my upcoming post.
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I'm gonna stick with my town read on shady. In the cases against him (mostly spag's) he is mainly accused of picking apart statements to try and throw suspicion around. He does indeed nitpick a lot, but the only times when the nitpicks seemed like they could have been scum motivated were at the beginning of the game when there wasn't anything to talk about except lurker policy. As I read through his filter his questions became more and more indicative of somebody who is scumhunting rather than someone who is trying to generate pointless suspicion. Makes sense.... the level of controversy slowly builds as the game progresses so constant aggressive questioning will look scummy at first when there is no controversy.
He did change his votes around during the last half of D1 but his overall motives were consistent and transparent. For example, he agreed with my case against WeeTee and said he would consider WeeTee as a 2nd candidate before most other people had done so. He was one of the first to commit to that (backup WeeTee plan) and he followed through on it. He has maintained his other suspicions (against kush and lvdr) very consistently while continuing to scumhunt.
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Cop should NOT waste a check on dandel.
Dandel should be the next lynch.
Cop should be on shady because he is much more of a wildcard.
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On August 26 2012 22:53 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 22:23 thrawn2112 wrote:
It wouldn't be absolute proof. You could always get roleblocked by mafia and then your roleblock wouldn't go through Oh no. I reread the rules. The scum RB is just going to RB me, so my RB isn't going to go through. I did not realize this.
Cop should be checking KushM4sta, as he's been claiming JK for the past day, and explicitly stated we could confirm that JK claim, and now there's not even a way to "verify" his claims.
Alternatively, cop should check Lvdr to see whether he's just a lying scum or a townie with difficulty separating fact from fiction.
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On a side note, cop please don't roleclaim. It's way too early in the game to even consider doing that. Breadcrumb your night checks or something to be revealed at a later date.
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I don't have much time today to post before the NK, though I believe I'll be back before the Daypost. I think that the cop should investigate Dandel lon. If he ends up being scum, there is so much information to be gained from the D1 vote. It will indicate that someone who took part in the exodus from Dandel lon is likely the remaining scum, as well as possibly confirm some people as townies. Though most of the players in the game were in on the WeeTee lynch (which makes sense with a majority vote), I believe that the possibilities can be narrowed down.
As far as kush and the JK claim go, I see so many reasons for kush to have claimed JK because he is JK, and virtually none if he is scum. Everyone agrees that (at least until more recently) he was/is a pretty weak player. Town kush claiming JK makes complete sense in this case. Scum kush would have had to form a plan that is inconsistent with how he behaved up to that point and in complete opposition to his lack of understanding of how to play this game (which it seems he's beginning to understand). I still believe that pursuing cases against him is a waste of time.
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On August 26 2012 22:05 kushm4sta wrote:@Shady Sands There is one thing in your post I agree with, the last part. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't buy your JK claim at all. Never have, never will, unless you die and flip JK. Even if someone else claims they were RB'd, it could just be your scumbuddy in which case woohoo! We have our two scum. That is why people should decide who I RB. They can pick the least scummy person to minimize the chance that it will be my "scumbuddy." As for lvdr, I find your case against him an exaggeration. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Again, Kush isn't listening to others or making a good case. My case on Lvdr is not in how many people he was accusing but the way in which he was doing it. He was FoSing and voting people without giving them a chance to respond, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. And he was rapidly switching his targets as he did so. This is a classic scum technique to find out who is AFK/busy so they can set up a mislynch wagon, especially given that most of the town was undecided at that point. He claims he FOSed a bunch of people rapidly because he was trying to prevent lurkers. He uses the FOS differently than he should perhaps but to me it makes sense. Yes he voted for weetee at first then change his vote to dandelion, but why would mafia do that if weetee was town anyway? Also many people changed their vote from dandelion to weetee. Changing your vote does not make you mafia. @thrawn You have actually been riding shady's dick quite hard this game. I'm not saying it makes you suspicious but maybe you are putting too much stock in his meta.
He claims he has been busy FOSing people to prevent lurkers, but somehow he missed Alsn, who skipped out hours prior to nightpost and didn't even show up for the lynch.
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On August 27 2012 02:58 Shady Sands wrote:He claims he has been busy FOSing people to prevent lurkers, but somehow he missed Alsn, who skipped out hours prior to nightpost and didn't even show up for the lynch. Wait, what? I most certainly did show up for the lynch. I changed my vote before the deadline too. Gonna write up my thoughts on the pre-lynch debacle sometime before end of the night, I've just been really busy today so far.
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On August 27 2012 03:31 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:58 Shady Sands wrote:He claims he has been busy FOSing people to prevent lurkers, but somehow he missed Alsn, who skipped out hours prior to nightpost and didn't even show up for the lynch. Wait, what? I most certainly did show up for the lynch. I changed my vote before the deadline too. Gonna write up my thoughts on the pre-lynch debacle sometime before end of the night, I've just been really busy today so far.
Who was it that skipped out on the lynch vote then? I know someone did, he came into the thread and was making loud posts about how he missed his alarm clock.
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Ok, so. To recap, what happened before lynch was that me, Spag and others all mostly agreed that kush/WT were either bad townies, or bad scum and that either way lynching them would be an "if noone else pops up"-option.
I want to comment on the following, as this is the event that sticks out the most to me in the hours before lynch.On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:Again, Kush isn't listening to others or making a good case. My case on Lvdr is not in how many people he was accusing but the way in which he was doing it. He was FoSing and voting people without giving them a chance to respond, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. And he was rapidly switching his targets as he did so. This is a classic scum technique to find out who is AFK/busy so they can set up a mislynch wagon, especially given that most of the town was undecided at that point.
Shady, you claim that Lvdr was throwing blame around all over the place in a supposed textbook mafia move. Except, your argument simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Firstly, the target switching. You claim that he rapidly switched targets as a way to find out who were able to defend themselves in order to launch a mislynch wagon. Yet his only switch was from WeeTee, to Dandel Ion. This with an actual proper case to support his switch.
Second, it's true that WeeTee didn't show up to defend himself, but if your statement had been based in reality that's who Lvdr would have tried to wagon and not someone else who actually showed up to defend himself. Instead Lvdr stuck to his guns and actually argued with Dandel Ion who was very much here to defend himself.
Lastly, in the end it was you, Shady, who made everyone switch to the mislynch, largely together with mkfuba thanks to the following post: + Show Spoiler +On August 26 2012 05:44 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:29 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.
For Dandel lon, his main defense against the accusations is that the main point of Lvdr's argument is that he's experienced and should be posting better. I don't think that that's the strongest aspect of Lvdr's case. The fact that until just recently everything Dandel lon's said was policy (acceptable to a point), comments that appear to be contributing (slightly suspicious), and wishy-washy reads (suspicious) with about 17 hours of lurking following it, is the heart of the matter for me. It's not just the lurking, it's the active lurking before that.
##vote Dandel lon Okay. Mkfuba, you hold the hammer. I don't get how you can view WeeTee's actual vote and KushM4sta-level anti-town play as being less worth a vote than Dandel's "active lurking." Furthermore, if Dandel is as experienced as people suggest, it is better to have him around than a terrible poster who won't contribute to scumhunt. Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee.
As has been pointed out by others, your reasoning here seems very flawed. Why other than your own suspicion of Lvdr did you feel that the cases outlined against WeeTee were stronger than Dandel Ion's lurking? Because he absolutely was lurking. He only really started defending himself once he was accused. Before that point Lvdr was right on the money as Dandel together with mkfuba was one of the players with the least amount of content/posts.
In conclusion, I'm absolutely siding with Lvdr against Shady and as such, I would think the cop(if there is one? not sure on whether it's guaranteed that there is one looking at the rules) should investigate either one of them to clear things up. I'm not entirely sure who would be the best target however, but as of right now I would have to go with Shady. Lvdr's behaviour leading up to lynch seemed a lot more in tune with a townie desperately trying to get people to generate a "productive" lynch, something we IMHO didn't get. Shady on the other hand had a lot of inconsistensies in his arguments, some of which I pointed out myself here.
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I like a cop check on shady now because either a red or green check tells us so much. The same is true of me, but I do think I've shown enough to be town, especially given how the WeeTee lynch went down.
As soon as the day post goes down my vote will be on dandel. The fact that he is replacing out means that he must be lynched; he looked scummy before, and if someone is taking over a scum-player they will have a fresh start to construct their defense.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore.
This quote sounds like a mafia who knows he's caught.
Yes his lurkiness may be due to IRL issues, but that is not a risk I think we can take right now. I say again that WeeTee was a perfect mislynch opportunity, one that was pushed by dandel and shady.
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How much time is left on the deadline?
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Day post in 40 minutes. Please make sure to send any night actions you may have to both myself and Keirathi.
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Hi. I don't know what to do beacuse scum rb just gonna rb me.
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I will tell you who to jail. Its still too early.
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Ok Lvdr I will be checking this thread constantly before it's time and I do trust you since I don't trust shady.
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If the goon is jailed will the roleblocker carry out the hit?
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The mafia team has to choose one person to carry out the night kill. If that person is roleblocked, the night kill will not go through.
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1. Mafia kill kush.
2. Mafia rb kush.
3. Mafia will not do both.
4. If mafia kill kush rb will probably be wasted.
5. mafia will rb kush.
6. If the jailkeeper and roleblocker target each other, both are notified of the roleblock.
7. Kush needs to try to rb the rber.
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btw 6 is a quote from rules.
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If i were mafia I would RB me and not kill me so that people would continue to be suspicious of me.
So in that case it doesn't matter who i roleblock, because the scum RB will rb me and my rb will never go through. If we RB each other then scum RB will be informed that I RB him, but he's never going to share that information.
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can a rb kill and rb in the same night?
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kush this is not the time to discuss these things.
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I did jail dandel just now.
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Yes, the mafia roleblocker can carry out both his roleblock and the night kill.
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kush you have to be tricky...
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End of Night 1
Figure 3. Fun fact. Nuclear power has never killed anyone.
Two years ago, Alsn had lived in the great state of Ohio. Fun fact: Ohio has the more astronauts per population than any other state in the country. That's because there's something about Ohio that makes people want to leave the state (and sometimes, even the planet). After receiving his bachelor's degree, Alsn decided it was time to leave. He joined the TL Navy, and trained to become a nuclear engineer. Now, instead of living in the middle of a cornfield, he lived in a giant Pringles can under the water. A nuclear powered giant Pringles can under the water. He was pleased with his decision.
Of course, if he had stayed in Ohio, he never would have run into the situation he found himself in this particular night. Warning lights started to illuminate all over his console. "Overcurrent Warning", "Core Temperature Rising", "Backup Generators Onlining"... There were a lot of lights, and this was bad. Two years of schooling kicked in, and Alsn ran off to the engine room to find the fault in the system.
The problem was immediately obvious. Someone had locked the breakers in the closed position, and then started severing some of the larger power lines. One of them had managed to come in contact with the floor. Alsn lept into action. First thing to do was to fix the breaker problem. He managed to find a pair of bolt cutters and cut off the metal holding the breakers closed. Immediately, the breakers opened, solving the most immediate of his problems. He stood back a bit to survey the rest of the damage. At that point, a pipe collided with the back of his head, and Alsn was no more.
Alsn, the vanilla townie was struck by a lead pipe!
Day 2 has begun! You have 48 hours to decide on today's lynch.
Note that there are no clues this game. Any names used above are purely for flavor.
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##vote:Dandel Ion/Replacement
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Yup Ive been rbed big surprise there....
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Kush did you actually jail dandel?
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Kush, for the future, the idea is you try to set a WIFOM mindbomb for the mafia. This was a tough situatio nthough.
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On August 27 2012 06:12 Lvdr wrote:
Kush, for the future, the idea is you try to set a WIFOM mindbomb for the mafia. This was a tough situatio nthough.
Kush, for the future, do not roleclaim day 1 for no reason.
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What do you guys think about mkfuba? I'm gonna quote some of his posts regarding WeeTee.
On August 26 2012 01:11 mkfuba07 wrote:My second candidate at the moment is WeeTee. Though in general I agree with Spag's recent posts, Thrawn raises a good point in that WeeTee has yet to take a side in most matters. Also, he has voted for kush because of his defensive, inexperienced play, when WeeTee himself is using it in his own defense as a bad townie. I would prefer to vote for him only as a last resort, but am willing to as he was my second scumread earlier in the game. As an aside, I realize I didn't mention this earlier. I found him more suspicious than kush for reasons that I couldn't put into words, so I didn't comment on him until I found out what was bugging me. Thrawn's post showed me what I was missing.
In that post he says his 2nd scumread is WeeTee. He says that WeeTee was also his 2nd scumread earlier in the game for reasons he couldn't put into words.
On August 26 2012 05:48 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
##vote WeeTee
I do feel reluctant for reasons that I can't quite explain, but I truly want to avoid a no-lynch, and WeeTee is my second scumread anyway.
Another instance of him mentioning WeeTee and reasons that are unexplainable.
Look at his filter and you'll see he doesn't give a scumread until halfway into D1 and only does so because someone asked him for a read. Up till then he wasn't suspicious of anyone. Here's the timestamp of the post if you wanna look it up:
On August 25 2012 02:31 mkfuba07 wrote:
At the moment it's actually Lvdr.
Before the vote his top scumread was lvdr. Then out of nowhere there is this post:
On August 26 2012 05:29 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.##vote Dandel lon
His first scumread of the game was lvdr, and then he votes for lvdr, and then all the sudden his 2 scumreads are dandel lon or WeeTee? What happened to lvdr being his strongest scumread?
He makes suspicious posts about WeeTee and has a lack of consistency in what was his "top" scumread. He didn't accuse anyone of being scum until he was asked to and said his top scumread was lvdr. Then he votes for lvdr and says WeeTee is his back up plan and that he's been suspicious of WeeTee the whole game for reasons he didn't know at the time. Then lvdr suggests voting for dandel and all the sudden mkfuba abandons his top scumread (lvdr) and doesn't mention him again for the rest of the game. Mkfuba votes for dandel. Then close to deadline he switches his vote for WeeTee and once again talks about his unexplainable feelings.
##FOS mkfuba07
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##FoS thrawn2112
I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality.
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Kush is now confirmed town unless someone comes forward and claims they were also nightblocked. If this does not happen, then I am going to start FoSing anyone who questions him for deliberate attempts to spread confusion.
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On August 27 2012 10:50 Spaghetticus wrote:
Kush is now confirmed town unless someone comes forward and claims they were also nightblocked. If this does not happen, then I am going to start FoSing anyone who questions him for deliberate attempts to spread confusion.
How does that even make sense? You do realize that under F11, there could be no jailkeeper at all and only a roleblocker, right? And that jk/rb doesn't even have to rb or jk someone each night.
At best, this is a null tell. At best.
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On August 27 2012 10:45 Spaghetticus wrote:
##FoS thrawn2112
I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality.
Why FOS me now? Was it that my latest post was irrational and that was the tipping point? What's your disagreement with my read on mkfuba? If you don't have any then I don't see why you would FOS me all of the sudden.
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On August 27 2012 10:50 Spaghetticus wrote:
Kush is now confirmed town unless someone comes forward and claims they were also nightblocked. If this does not happen, then I am going to start FoSing anyone who questions him for deliberate attempts to spread confusion.
I actually agree with shadys reasoning that I cannot be 100% confirmed town. Before I thought I could be confirmed, but I didn't realize then that mafia could roleblock my roleblock.
What could have happened is the hypothetical real JK RBed a mafia, so that is why no one else is coming out saying they were RBed.
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On August 27 2012 10:25 thrawn2112 wrote:What do you guys think about mkfuba? I'm gonna quote some of his posts regarding WeeTee. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:11 mkfuba07 wrote:My second candidate at the moment is WeeTee. Though in general I agree with Spag's recent posts, Thrawn raises a good point in that WeeTee has yet to take a side in most matters. Also, he has voted for kush because of his defensive, inexperienced play, when WeeTee himself is using it in his own defense as a bad townie. I would prefer to vote for him only as a last resort, but am willing to as he was my second scumread earlier in the game. As an aside, I realize I didn't mention this earlier. I found him more suspicious than kush for reasons that I couldn't put into words, so I didn't comment on him until I found out what was bugging me. Thrawn's post showed me what I was missing. In that post he says his 2nd scumread is WeeTee. He says that WeeTee was also his 2nd scumread earlier in the game for reasons he couldn't put into words.
All correct. I don't like declaring my reads without being able to support them. If, earlier than that, I had just said, "I find WeeTee suspicious, but I don't know why. ##FoS WeeTee," nothing would have come of that but suspicion towards me, which naturally I don't want to attract.
Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:48 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
##vote WeeTee
I do feel reluctant for reasons that I can't quite explain, but I truly want to avoid a no-lynch, and WeeTee is my second scumread anyway. Another instance of him mentioning WeeTee and reasons that are unexplainable.
I suppose thinking back that my reluctance was based around the fact that I did, indeed, find dandel lon more suspicious. There were valid reasons to vote for WeeTee, but I didn't like being forced to switch to my second scumread simply to avoid a no-lynch.
Look at his filter and you'll see he doesn't give a scumread until halfway into D1 and only does so because someone asked him for a read. Up till then he wasn't suspicious of anyone. Here's the timestamp of the post if you wanna look it up: Before the vote his top scumread was lvdr. Then out of nowhere there is this post: Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:29 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Unvote
Naturally, I'm currently looking at Dandel lon or WeeTee. As far as Dandel lon goes, I'm ignoring the fact that he's voting for WeeTee, because that is basically his only viable option. WeeTee's vote, on the other hand, I find to be one of his most suspicious actions. He votes for kush for the same reasoning that he uses to defend himself. Also, though I know there's a lot of speculation as to whether or not the JK claim was real, saying "I'd rather lynch him and know if he was JK than keep wondering" (paraphrased) is scummy. Whether or not you believe kush's role claim, WeeTee's reason for voting for him is anti-town.##vote Dandel lon His first scumread of the game was lvdr, and then he votes for lvdr, and then all the sudden his 2 scumreads are dandel lon or WeeTee? What happened to lvdr being his strongest scumread?
When I post a case against someone and it's ignored for over a day before someone comments on it only because I've explicitly asked everyone for feedback, and the feedback from the 2-3 people who actually respond is basically "he's pretty town", then I begin to question my read. On top of that, at that point we needed to come to an agreement and I didn't see that happening regarding Lvdr, so I had to decide between the two viable candidates at the time. Both showed evidence of scummy behavior, and Dandel lon became more suspicious to me than WeeTee upon closer inspection of his filter. My growing suspicions of Dandel lon made also made me question my read on Lvdr, because Lvdr is the one who wrote the case on Dandel lon. Also, a major aspect of my read on Lvdr was the lack of a committed read on anyone, which was provided in Dandel lon. As for my current reads on Lvdr, I'll need to review his filter again because I haven't had any time since the vote to analyze anything.
He makes suspicious posts about WeeTee and has a lack of consistency in what was his "top" scumread. He didn't accuse anyone of being scum until he was asked to and said his top scumread was lvdr. Then he votes for lvdr and says WeeTee is his back up plan and that he's been suspicious of WeeTee the whole game for reasons he didn't know at the time. Then lvdr suggests voting for dandel and all the sudden mkfuba abandons his top scumread (lvdr) and doesn't mention him again for the rest of the game. Mkfuba votes for dandel. Then close to deadline he switches his vote for WeeTee and once again talks about his unexplainable feelings.
##FOS mkfuba07
I was consistent with my Lvdr scumread. All of my posts for an entire day (limited though my availability may have been) were either trying to get kush to stop playing horribly (one post and an EBWOP) or supporting my suspicions of Lvdr (3 substantial posts that were ignored for about 24 hours). You can't ignore everything I say about Lvdr and then say that I'm not supporting my read.
When I was asked for my scumread, I gave it. I won't apologize for my more timid playstyle. Some are almost irrationally aggressive and nit-picky (Shady), and some are more cautious. I'm the latter.
Also, considering the majority of D1 was spent discussing kush when I thought it was a completely stupid case against him, I had little to say other than trying to get kush to stop acting like a noob so that everyone else would finally move on. I felt like I was simply repeating the previous two games where someone does something dumb and noobish and the entire team pounces on him like ravenous dogs.
Above I've addressed the rest of this paragraph, excluding the last sentence. To explain that, I'll point the the multiple times that I said that I would do whatever it takes to avoid a no-lynch. Since you said you would rather no-lynch than vote for Dandel lon, the only option was hopping on your bandwagon.
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Your statements about why you didn't want to share reads on WeeTee make sense from a town-mkfuba perspective. But not being suspicious of anybody until someone asks you for a read is scummy behavior. Call it timid town play but to me it looked like you weren't scumhunting. You say you were consistent with your lvdr scumread. Everything you said about him was consistent, but your overall stance on him wasn't consistent because you completely abandoned your biggest case without telling us why he wasn't your top read until after the fact (just now.)
It's hard to see you as town if you're really just playing timidly... being timid and not sharing reads are scum traits.
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On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down.
Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1.
This quote is suspicious to me.
The second sentence implies that they're either both town or both scum, and their attacks on each other make them appear townish because scum wouldn't bus each other this hard. This is a false dichotomy, and I'm not sure why Thrawn would see their suspicions of each other as two parts of one whole. It's as if he's reduced the situation to: they're scum bussing each other, or they're both town suspecting each other. Why abandon the possibility of one of them actually being scum?
He then says that Shady looks more townish than Lvdr because of Lvdr's inconsistencies, but then says that Lvdr has given reasons for his actions which removes his suspicion. He gives no reasons for why Shady looks town, but says that he looks more townish because of Lvdr's previously suspicious behaviour. This ties back into his previous implication that they share an alignment, an implication that has no basis.
The entire first paragraph seems like a soft defense of Shady without actually providing any evidence of his towniness.
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On August 27 2012 11:51 thrawn2112 wrote:
Your statements about why you didn't want to share reads on WeeTee make sense from a town-mkfuba perspective. But not being suspicious of anybody until someone asks you for a read is scummy behavior. Call it timid town play but to me it looked like you weren't scumhunting. You say you were consistent with your lvdr scumread. Everything you said about him was consistent, but your overall stance on him wasn't consistent because you completely abandoned your biggest case without telling us why he wasn't your top read until after the fact (just now.)
It's hard to see you as town if you're really just playing timidly... being timid and not sharing reads are scum traits.
My apologies for not explaining all of my reasoning at all times. Every time I do that I get called out for being a fluffy poster. If you'd like my reasoning on something that I haven't made explicit, feel free to ask. I'm quite accomodating.
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On August 27 2012 12:03 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down.
Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1.
This quote is suspicious to me. The second sentence implies that they're either both town or both scum, and their attacks on each other make them appear townish because scum wouldn't bus each other this hard. This is a false dichotomy, and I'm not sure why Thrawn would see their suspicions of each other as two parts of one whole. It's as if he's reduced the situation to: they're scum bussing each other, or they're both town suspecting each other. Why abandon the possibility of one of them actually being scum? He then says that Shady looks more townish than Lvdr because of Lvdr's inconsistencies, but then says that Lvdr has given reasons for his actions which removes his suspicion. He gives no reasons for why Shady looks town, but says that he looks more townish because of Lvdr's previously suspicious behaviour. This ties back into his previous implication that they share an alignment, an implication that has no basis. The entire first paragraph seems like a soft defense of Shady without actually providing any evidence of his towniness.
You say I gave no reasons for shady being town but as kush pointed out my read on shady has been town all game. My last read on shady is here. As for not pointing out that only one could be scum.. I didn't think that was the case because I thought they were both town.
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On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down.
Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1.
I am growing less suspicious of Shady, just because 2 people have played with him before, lvdr and thrawn, and they confirm that how he is acting fits his meta.
As for the lvdr and shady conflict, it does seem out of no where but they are bringing it in from another game. I don't see why that makes them both town. I think one could be mafia and the past conflict almost gives him an excuse to tunnel an innocent townie.
@thrawn I really think dandel ion is town. I cannot see someone rolling mafia as being that ambivalent, because mafia the more coveted role. Even if I only had 2 hours of free time a day, if I rolled mafia I would try to make it work.
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If I can't get a lynch on Shady, I am sure as hell getting a lynch on Dandel. He is so scummy it hurts. His opting out of the game is the only reason I have to doubt him, and that is also consistent with a mafia who is looking at a lynch. Think about it, if you were mafia and everyone was zeroing in on you, you could opt out to preserve your fragile self-esteem, or you could opt out to stop people lynching you as scum, which would lead to a better chance of scum victory.
I will be doing more posting later, at the moment I'm just doing spot responses.
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I really think we are getting ahead of ourselves here.
1. Dandel was #1 scumread d1
2. Dandel pushed a mislynch.
3. He never sounded like a townie when he was defending himself.
4. He never referenced any IRL issues that limited his posting D1. Its not hard to say "excuse my low amount of posts, IRL issues." Replacement only came up after the lynch which makes it implausible for explaining the d1 lurkiness.
5. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=22#424 This post screams scum tapping out. He basically says "I would rather play gw2 and I don't give a shit about the town." Sounds like scum that knows hes caught.
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On August 27 2012 14:29 Spaghetticus wrote:
If I can't get a lynch on Shady, I am sure as hell getting a lynch on Dandel. He is so scummy it hurts. His opting out of the game is the only reason I have to doubt him, and that is also consistent with a mafia who is looking at a lynch. Think about it, if you were mafia and everyone was zeroing in on you, you could opt out to preserve your fragile self-esteem, or you could opt out to stop people lynching you as scum, which would lead to a better chance of scum victory.
I will be doing more posting later, at the moment I'm just doing spot responses.
That's what I was thinking when I posted this:
On August 26 2012 20:29 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh.
Work just cut into my freetime like knife into butter.
I didn't know it would, or I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. But now I'm here.
I'll have about ~2 hours of time today in the evening. And probably the same amount for the rest of the week.
Not that I expect this time will help any, with how it looks. So I'm just gonna play GW2 for most of that. I'd much rather do that anyways. If my best fucking efforts to still be active despite everything are still not enough, no need to bother.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore. So what are you going to do? This statement... Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm? ...makes it look like you are going to stay in the game. But if you don't care about the game, then why would you remain in it? If you truly don't want to play anymore then you should drop out and ask for a replacement.
He says he absolutely didn't have time to play... but then acts like he was going to stay in the game because "replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?" But if he couldn't play or didn't care... why would he want to remain in the game at all? He only dropped out of the game once he was pressured to do so.
Is dandel going to be replaced?
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On August 27 2012 10:45 Spaghetticus wrote:
##FoS thrawn2112
I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality.
I agree with this and I also think that the fos on mkfuba from thrawn is quite suspicious.
First, the wagon on WeeTee was largely thrawn's doing. I thought it was just bad play at the time, but it could be more sinister. Second, given WeeTee's green flip, I think Dandel HAS to be suspect #1. This smells like mafia trying to disperse the suspicion on the hopes that the replacement wipes the slate for dandel and town can be sent in another direction.
The case made by Thrawn also seems like a huge reach and not very strong.
HOWEVER, we need to lynch dandel before we decide who to lynch next. If dandel is mafia, THEN we can decide (based on evidence) who his partner is. If he is not, we will have a body of evidence and a number of suspicious players to look at.
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On August 27 2012 14:45 Lvdr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:45 Spaghetticus wrote:
##FoS thrawn2112
I have been thinking you bad town for some time, but the constant discrepancies between your reads and my own are starting to be suspicious. I'm putting you as my scummiest read after Shady Sands and Dandel Ion. It is not that you are completely irrational like WeeTee and Kush have been previously, but that you seem both capable of logic and complete irrationality. I agree with this and I also think that the fos on mkfuba from thrawn is quite suspicious. First, the wagon on WeeTee was largely thrawn's doing. I thought it was just bad play at the time, but it could be more sinister. Second, given WeeTee's green flip, I think Dandel HAS to be suspect #1. This smells like mafia trying to disperse the suspicion on the hopes that the replacement wipes the slate for dandel and town can be sent in another direction. The case made by Thrawn also seems like a huge reach and not very strong. HOWEVER, we need to lynch dandel before we decide who to lynch next. If dandel is mafia, THEN we can decide (based on evidence) who his partner is. If he is not, we will have a body of evidence and a number of suspicious players to look at.
Most of my suspicion on WeeTee was because I asked him a question over and over without him even acknowledging it... was probably around 10 times and even spaghetticus asked him. + Show Spoiler +On August 25 2012 23:17 Spaghetticus wrote:
WeeTee, you are doing yourself no favours by leaving this to hang. Please make your position here clear! I am bolding this shit so you no longer have an excuse!!
I do agree to a lynch on dandel because of his D1 lurking and the odd manner in which he dropped out, but when the replacement comes we shouldn't ask the replacement to defend things dandel said because that is a big waste of time. A replacement would not be able to interpret/explain dandel's posts better than any one of us.
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I apologize for the lengtth of this post. It started as a response to thrawn, but developed into a full-blown case.
On August 27 2012 12:24 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 12:03 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 26 2012 17:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Well it seems like shady and lvdr are incredibly pissed at each other. I sense a lot of tension between them and that strikes me as townish behavior because I don't think scum would bus each other as hard as they are doing. Shady looks more townish than lvdr, because lvdr has made quite a few posts based on inaccuracies and he's backtracked on his words a few times. However lvdr has given acceptable town motivations for a lot of his posts so I'm gonna say that they are both town and they need to calm the fuck down.
Dandel lon barely avoided being lynched yesterday so I'm gonna focus on him right now. It's very suspicious that he almost got lynched and then a townie got lynched instead... so I'm going to read through the posts made during the last few hours of D1.
This quote is suspicious to me. The second sentence implies that they're either both town or both scum, and their attacks on each other make them appear townish because scum wouldn't bus each other this hard. This is a false dichotomy, and I'm not sure why Thrawn would see their suspicions of each other as two parts of one whole. It's as if he's reduced the situation to: they're scum bussing each other, or they're both town suspecting each other. Why abandon the possibility of one of them actually being scum? He then says that Shady looks more townish than Lvdr because of Lvdr's inconsistencies, but then says that Lvdr has given reasons for his actions which removes his suspicion. He gives no reasons for why Shady looks town, but says that he looks more townish because of Lvdr's previously suspicious behaviour. This ties back into his previous implication that they share an alignment, an implication that has no basis. The entire first paragraph seems like a soft defense of Shady without actually providing any evidence of his towniness. You say I gave no reasons for shady being town but as kush pointed out my read on shady has been town all game. My last read on shady is here. As for not pointing out that only one could be scum.. I didn't think that was the case because I thought they were both town.
And my response to that is that without already thinking that they're both town, the entire post falls apart.
Now for my case against Shady Sands, though it does start with me responding to thrawn's earlier defense of Shady:
On August 26 2012 23:01 thrawn2112 wrote:
I'm gonna stick with my town read on shady. In the cases against him (mostly spag's) he is mainly accused of picking apart statements to try and throw suspicion around. He does indeed nitpick a lot, but the only times when the nitpicks seemed like they could have been scum motivated were at the beginning of the game when there wasn't anything to talk about except lurker policy. As I read through his filter his questions became more and more indicative of somebody who is scumhunting rather than someone who is trying to generate pointless suspicion. Makes sense.... the level of controversy slowly builds as the game progresses so constant aggressive questioning will look scummy at first when there is no controversy.
Regarding this part of your previous read, I disagree with it. I'll give you your acceptance of his meta as a town-tell, though I'm keeping it as a null tell because if I don't think the play is helping then I'm not going to say it's pro-town. I am going to go through his filter again to decide whether I think he's properly scumhunting, but since the last time I truly read through his filter I just saw him acting like himself, and that play made me vote for him in XXIV.
He did change his votes around during the last half of D1 but his overall motives were consistent and transparent. For example, he agreed with my case against WeeTee and said he would consider WeeTee as a 2nd candidate before most other people had done so. He was one of the first to commit to that (backup WeeTee plan) and he followed through on it. He has maintained his other suspicions (against kush and lvdr) very consistently while continuing to scumhunt.
As for being the one of the first to commit to a vote switch to WeeTee, he may have been the first to mention it, but he put the choice into my hands.
If Mkfuba doesn't vote WeeTee nobody gets lynched. And shouldn't WeeTee be in this thread?
Okay. Mkfuba, you hold the hammer. I don't get how you can view WeeTee's actual vote and KushM4sta-level anti-town play as being less worth a vote than Dandel's "active lurking."
Furthermore, if Dandel is as experienced as people suggest, it is better to have him around than a terrible poster who won't contribute to scumhunt.
Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee.
It's impossible to have a 100% scum read on ANYONE D1. Telling me to switch to someone I found less suspicious because I don't have a 100% scum read on the other on D1 is so suspicious I don't know why I didn't question it earlier, but I do know that the entire time I was sitting there deciding on what to do, I was being constantly pressured to make the first move in the transfer to WeeTee. It wasn't until I said that I would do it that he actually switched his vote.
On top of that, his appeal for me to to vote for WeeTee over Dandel lon because of his post quality is scummy. That shouldn't ever be a factor in the decision to lynch someone unless there is somehow not a single scummy candidate. Shady should know that.
I agree that consistency is typically a town-tell, but a good player knows that. If anything, Shady's playstyle makes it easier to be consistent as scum because scum know that all of their cases must be embellished or contrived, and his manner of playing zeroes in on the tiniest flaws.
His case on kush is an example of this. I see almost a 0% chance of a player of kush's apparently skill level fake claiming JK. It's so much more likely (I'm tempted to say infinitely more likely) that kush is a noob who roleclaimed when he was threatened, as many people do when they play live mafia. But Shady uses it as direct evidence to drive us to vote for him. Here is his original post. All of kush's posts until Shady's were incredibly bad. They do nothing but cast suspicion on himself while making crappy cases against others without evidence. Would a scum kush, after all of that crappiness, actually consider bussing himself to get a blue role to claim? Absolutely not. Add to that the fact that the only other support for a kush lynch was a player (who did not flip JK) who played so poorly we decided to lynch him. I see three possibilities here:
1. Shady is actually JK and that explains his powerful suspicions of kush
2. There is not a JK, so no one else is voting to support Shady's kush lynch
3. Shady tried to push a lynch on kush because he was an easy target and didn't gather enough support
I find the likelihood of these cases to be 3>1>2. I think #3 has been covered above. #1 I would accept as a valid reason, but I don't think that kush would have fakeclaimed so I don't think it's likely. #2 I don't see as a possibility because I believe kush's RB claim. Even if I didn't, in that case I would have to assume that there isn't a roleblocker in the game since no one else has claimed to have been roleblocked. I don't see this as probable because two of the three possible power roles are capable of role blocking and I doubt that neither of them made it into the game.
These posts also lend credence to Shady playing in a way that I don't think are town-motivated but can still be seen as consistent with Shady's meta: post 1, post 2
Because of the way he's played in the past, going by a meta read will simply show him as being consistent, aggressive, and stubborn. But I believe that he never had a very strong case, and he can't back off now because kush hasn't shown enough improvement to change his read. I think this consistancy aspect of my case mostly comes down to peoples' personal reads on the kush situation. I believe scum Shady has little trouble being consistent, because his meta allows him to latch onto someone and never let go for little reason. Scum have to find evidence where there shouldn't be any, and I believe he's taken the bait with kush.
##vote Shady Sands
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I would vote for dandel ion even though I think he's probably town (and I think this just because personally I would want to stay in until I died if I was mafia).
I would still vote for him though, because I think if he does turn scum, that would do a lot to alleviate my suspicion of shady.
Here's why I think dandel and shady cant be a scumteam.
On August 26 2012 20:27 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh.
Work just cut into my freetime like knife into butter.
I didn't know it would, or I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. But now I'm here.
I'll have about ~2 hours of time today in the evening. And probably the same amount for the rest of the week.
Not that I expect this time will help any, with how it looks. So I'm just gonna play GW2 for most of that. I'd much rather do that anyways. If my best fucking efforts to still be active despite everything are still not enough, no need to bother.
Usually the sensible thing would be getting replaced I guess, but the replacement would just get lynched day 2 too, so no need to bother, hm?
A dick move?
Yeah. But I don't care anymore. What the hell? Town hasn't been pushing you nearly as hard as Kush or WT or even me, for that matter. If you've got some time now, spit out your reads. And asking to quit like this is just bad play. If you're going to AFK from thread because you don't like the game anymore, PM a mod, don't say it in the thread.
Read the exchange. To me it says these guys are either both town or only one is scum.
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On August 27 2012 15:36 mkfuba07 wrote:
1. Shady is actually JK and that explains his powerful suspicions of kush
2. There is not a JK, so no one else is voting to support Shady's kush lynch
3. Shady tried to push a lynch on kush because he was an easy target and didn't gather enough support
or 4, I am JK and shady is town, but he mistakenly believes I am scum.
I think 4 is quite possible and shady is just unksilled at reads.
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On August 27 2012 14:37 Lvdr wrote:
4. He never referenced any IRL issues that limited his posting D1. Its not hard to say "excuse my low amount of posts, IRL issues." Replacement only came up after the lynch which makes it implausible for explaining the d1 lurkiness.
Kid, let me walk you through my filter. You're clearly not able to read it yourself. A fact that I suspected ever since you posted your "case".
Pregame: I'm-gonna-be-at-work post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=4#62
First ingame post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=5#86
As I stated before the game I'm at work right now, so I will just post my thoughts on policy for now:
more:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=14#265
I will be gone for the next few hours too - I didn't have time to read the thread yet, so I can't really comment right now.
I will be back (well) before the deadline.
Sorry
"well" is in brackets because 3-4 hours might not seem like "well before" to other people. I come back and suddenly there's a case against me.
And now people say "hurp durp he didn't say anything until a case was made against him."
.....
The post you wanted, apologizing for not being active, that I supposedly didn't write: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579¤tpage=15#297
Okay, I'm here and going to post my current opinions.
Sorry I was pretty busy the last days, I would have liked to be more active too.
Bigger post coming soon(tm)
And as I said, I think it'd be redundant to get me replaced, since the replacement will get lynched within ~10 hours now. But other people seemed to want me to try. Don't know why they did.
This is gonna be my last post (very last, probably) because I'm not gonna be here at fliptime.
So since I'll have to vote somebody, I'll vote Lvdr. For not being able to read. And for making up shit all the damn time.
##vote Lvdr
Pz out.
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@Kush
But such a conversation could be entirely contrived. Shady could just be covering his tracks, which is to be expected in this scenario of any scum. I am glad you will still vote Dandel, though I'd prefer it if you actually believed what you were voting for.
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I think Dandel Ion is the best lynch, and I think many people here agree. If there is controversy over this, i will post another detailed case tomorrow, but if he's gonna get lynched either way I'd rather not. I may have other suspicions, but Dandel Ion is the one that is most likely to end up being productive.
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EBWOP: by 'being productive', I mean get actually lynched. I regret not getting him lynched yesterday.
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The thing is, even if Dandel isn't scum, there's no way he's going to be a productive member of the town. So he's a good lynch anyway because we don't have a sure thing scum to vote for.
##vote Dandel Ion
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The illustrious Toadesstern has joined as a secondary cohost.
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Sup. Caught somewhat up but still no idea about the game. Sooooo as everyone is voting I take it it's day :p
But I can at least do votecounts!
Votecount so far:
( 3 ) - Dandel Ion: Lvdr, Spaghetticus, kushm4sta
( 1 ) - Shady Sands: mkfuba07,
( 1 ) - Lvdr: Dandel Ion,
You have roughly 28.5 hours left until deadline. That is 21:00 GMT (+00:00). With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch someone.
So far Shady Sands and thrawn2112 haven't voted.
Please make sure to highlight your votes with a [ b]-Tag so I can see them better. If there's any mistakes in the above votecount-of-aweomse please tell me so I can patch it. I'm not perfect yet
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+1 cohosting points for Toades. Deadline is in ~28.5 hours, tomorrow at 21:00 GMT (+00:00).
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##Vote Dandel Ion The way he said he wanted to quit but wasn't going to, then was like "ok fine I'll quit," and now apparently isn't quitting reeks of scum shenanigans. Saying you don't care and want to quit but not doing so just doesn't make sense.
If he ends up flipping green I will be extremely suspicious of lvdr. The dandel lon thing was his idea in the first place and it came out of nowhere. He has been called out for inconsistencies/lies more than anyone else and although he's given a lot of reasonable town explanations for them, at some point enough is enough.
I'm not going to be posting as much as I have been due to real life things. Not gonna go into lurk mode but don't expect 24/7 posting from me anymore.
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Votecount so far:
( 4 ) - Dandel Ion: Lvdr, Spaghetticus, kushm4sta, thrawn2112,
( 1 ) - Shady Sands: mkfuba07,
( 1 ) - Lvdr: Dandel Ion,
You have 20:42 hours left until deadline. Deadline is still 21:00 GMT (+00:00). With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch someone.
So far Shady Sands, haven't / hasn't voted.
Please make sure to highlight your votes with a [ b]-Tag so I can see them better. If there's any mistakes in the above votecount-of-aweomse please tell me so I can patch it. I'm not perfect yet
Yes I'm bored and besides my sheet of awesome does everything, except for grammar :p
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I've got two mod questions. Sorry if these seem newb. Also I think these may benefit the town, especially in a newbie game, so that's why I'm not just asking them in a PM.
As JK can I protect myself?
How do the two mafia communicate with each other?
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JK / medics usually can't protect themselves. I haven't asked Ghost about it but I'm pretty sure you can't target yourself. Never seen something like that outside of Igrok-games and even in those only once until he realized that shit is incredible broken :p
Mafia can communicate via any means and can stick to whatever they prefere.
Stuff like TL-pms, irc, skype conversations or a mix of something like that are all allowed. Not going to get more into detail about this for obvious reasons but as mentioned, pretty much everything is allowed.
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sup guys. today's been pretty boring.
I guess the recent silence means dandel is getting lynched?
Shady it's been a long time since we've heard from you. You were strongly opposed to the dandel lynch even to the point of accusing lvdr of trying to trick everyone into a mislynch. It's looking like dandel is gonna be lynched, are you still against that? Also are your top scum reads still kush and lvdr?
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If I roleblock the goon, will the hit still go through because of the roleblocker mafia?
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kush
Scum can decide which of them gets to perform the nk, so the mafia nk will go through as long as whoever does the hit isn't roleblocked.
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D2 has been very slow. Everyone has pretty much gone into lurker mode especially in the last 24 hrs. I know it's because it's pretty clear that Dandel will be lynched, but regardless of the outcome of the lynch I think we've wasted a lot of time. My advice on scumhunting after the lynch is the following:
If Dandel flips red:
If dandel flips red then attention will first need to be paid to anyone who played a part in stopping him from being lynched during D1. Look at the people who voted for WeeTee and try to figure out who was the most scummy about their WeeTee vote.
If Dandel flips green:
This will be awful because it will leave town in a horrible position (3 town/2 scum) for D3 unless a RB stops the NK. However we shouldn't be demoralized if this happens because it will give a lot of information that sheds light on possible scum tactics that went on during D1. If Dandel is green then I'm going to start by looking at the people who were in agreement with voting for either WeeTee/Dandel and try to find out who seemed to care the least which one was lynched.
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Votecount so far:
( 4 ) - Dandel Ion: Lvdr, Spaghetticus, kushm4sta, thrawn2112,
( 1 ) - Shady Sands: mkfuba07,
( 1 ) - Lvdr: Dandel Ion,
You have 3:47 hours left until deadline. Deadline is still 21:00 GMT (+00:00). With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch someone.
So far Shady Sands hasn't voted.
Dandel Ion has 4 votes and is going to be lynched if nothing changes.
Just a reminder because it's only 3 and half hour left according to my information. And of course as always, if you see a mistake somewhere just tell me :p
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I'd like to add that if Dandel flips red then we have at least one confirmed townie, possibly more. At the very least Lvdr would be confirmed to me.
If anyone has time and feels like there's nothing to talk about until the flip, take a look at my case against shady and let me know what you agree with, disagree with, if you think I'm making huge leaps, if you think it's good, bad, confusing, poorly worded, contrived, etc. The only ones that responded to it were kush and spag responding to kush. If there's something wrong with the way I present cases, I'd like to know that too so that I can do better in the future.
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Also, I have class until 40 minutes before the vote deadline, but I should be at a computer by that time.
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I find the whole conversation between Lvdr and Kush right before Daypost very scummy and odd. What benefit would a town Lvdr and a JK Kush have from that exchange? Why, if Kush already knows he would get roleblocked by a scum RB, would he still insist on publicly trying to "prove his JK claim" or "set up a WIFOM mindbomb" for the scumteam?
It makes no sense. In that case I still have my original cases on both of them and am voting
## Vote Lvdr.
That being said though, given that Lvdr's case on Dandel was unprovoked and a sudden FoS right before D1 lynch vote, I'd be willing to lynch Dandel only in the context that it tells us whether Lvdr is green or not. Scum Lvdr would have no reason to bus his partner in that way during D1.
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Cont'd from post above:
The reason why I think Lvdr and Kush were playing the JK game, even though there's no way to prove the claim, was that they were trying to set up a "WIFOM mindbomb" for the actual JK. This is borne out by the fact that D1, their little game was unable to block the NK of Alsn.
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On August 29 2012 02:38 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'd like to add that if Dandel flips red then we have at least one confirmed townie, possibly more. At the very least Lvdr would be confirmed to me.
Yeah I agree with this. Lvdr was rallying my vote quite enthusiastically to lynch Dandel. And upon reconsideration, I no longer would rule out the possibility of a shady/dandel scumteam.
As for shady, I am in agreement with mkfuba that shady is very suspicious. His accusations just do not seem like they are honest scumhunting. Instead, he makes these accusations, most memorably towards lvdr and me, just because he thinks he can get away with them. And he is very emphatic about these accusations even though they are not even close to sure things.
Think about in shady's bad case against me. I agree there could be some suspicion following my roleclaim, just because I said I could 100% confirm, and that didn't turn out to be the case. I did not realize at the time that my roleblock could be roleblocked. But in all of his many posts accusing me, Shady never brought up the real reason why my roleblock could not be confirmed. Instead this is his most detailed reasoning:
On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't buy your JK claim at all. Never have, never will, unless you die and flip JK. Even if someone else claims they were RB'd, it could just be your scumbuddy in which case woohoo! We have our two scum.
But doing what shady suggests would lose the game instantly for mafia.
@thrawn Are you really sure this is his meta? It's his meta to be actively bad town?
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[b] Is it possible in this game mode for there to be no JK? [b]
I remember shady giving this as another reasons why my confirmation is invalid...even though I would had to have based my false claim on the random chance that there was no JK to roleblock a townie.
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On August 29 2012 03:52 kushm4sta wrote:
[b] Is it possible in this game mode for there to be no JK? [b]
I remember shady giving this as another reasons why my confirmation is invalid...even though I would had to have based my false claim on the random chance that there was no JK to roleblock a townie.
Yes. Check the F11 game setup on mafiascum.net.
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ebwop
Is it possible IN THIS GAME for mods to never have assigned the JK role?
If so what is the chance that there is no JK?
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On August 29 2012 03:52 kushm4sta wrote:
Is it possible in this game mode for there to be no JK?
I remember shady giving this as another reasons why my confirmation is invalid...even though I would had to have based my false claim on the random chance that there was no JK to roleblock a townie.
Yes.
The roles in the OP are possible but you don't know how many of them are in the game. Quote from the OP
This is a semi-open setup. You will know which roles may appear in the game but not the number. Well, there is at least one vanilla townie. But that's all you know.
///Edit:///
On August 29 2012 04:04 kushm4sta wrote:
ebwop
Is it possible IN THIS GAME for mods to never have assigned the JK role?
If so what is the chance that there is no JK?
Yes it is possible.
Neither do I know about the chances of that happening or not happening nor would I tell you. It's a semi-open set-up and the point about is that you don't have this information.
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F11 gives four possible setups, see the wiki page linked in the OP for full details. The setup used in this game is taken from that page.
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Update: A little less than an hour left!
Votecount so far:
( 4 ) - Dandel Ion: Lvdr, Spaghetticus, kushm4sta, thrawn2112,
( 1 ) - Shady Sands: mkfuba07,
( 2 ) - Lvdr: Dandel Ion, Shady Sands,
You have 0:52 hours left until deadline. Deadline is still 21:00 GMT (+00:00). With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch someone.
So far everyone has voted.
Dandel Ion has 4 votes and is going to be lynched if nothing changes.
Please make sure to highlight your votes with a [ b]-Tag so I can see them better. If there's any mistakes in the above votecount-of-aweomse please tell me so I can patch it. I'm not perfect yet
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I'm getting kicked out of my lab now, but I'm going to switch my vote so that, like Alsn, there can't be any last minute vote-switching shenanigans to cause a no-lynch.
##unvote
##vote Dandel lon
Gonna try to find another comp lab, but I might not be able to :<
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End of Day 2
![[image loading]](http://mikeeatsdetroit.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/submarine-sandwich2.jpg%3Fw%3D500) Figure 4. What did you really expect to eat on a submarine?
It had been a long couple of days for Captian Keirathi. First, the untimely death of Marvelosity, then WeeTee was killed resisting arrest, and now this: alsn brutally murdered in the engine room. And why? he wondered to himself. There was seemingly no motivation for these heinous crimes.
He realized that he had to get to the bottom of this before any more blood was spilled. And that's why he ended up here, in the mess hall, with the seven highest ranking members of the crew. One deep breath later, and he was down to business.
Over the course of the conversation, details concerning the previous night began to emerge. Slowly, it dawned on everyone present that there was only one person who could have been responsible for the death of alsn. It could only have been Dandel Ion.
"Dandel Ion, I want to continue this conversation, with you, in private." sighed Captain Keirathi. Dandel Ion began to panic. He began trying to talk his way out, and explaining how it couldn't have been him, how it must have been kushm4sta, or maybe lvdr, but it couldn't have been him. He had an alabi, he was somewhere else, it wasn't him. The two of the armed men present began approaching him.
That's when Dandel Ion pulled out a knife, and ran towards Captain Keirathi.
That's when Shady Sands fired his gun, and killed Dandel Ion.
Dandel Ion, the mafia roleblocker was lynched by the town!
Night 2 has begun! You have 24 hours to submit any night actions you might have.
Note that there are no clues this game. Any names used above are purely for flavor.
Final votecount was:
+ Show Spoiler [klick me] +Votecount so far:
( 5 ) - Dandel Ion: Lvdr, Spaghetticus, kushm4sta, thrawn2112, mkfuba07
( 0 ) - Shady Sands: Mkfuba07,
( 2 ) - Lvdr: Dandel Ion, Shady Sands,
Dandel Ion has 5 votes and is to be lynched.
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ha gg mafia. Shady/dandel scumteam you called it lvdr
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I'm going to roleblock shady. No one is going to die. Then we are going to lynch him next day.
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Awesome guys!
Some thoughts of my own. Lvdr is confirmed as far as I'm concerned, as he was the one who pointed at Dandel lon out of nowhere.
I also have a pretty strong townie read on Spag, since he did mention having a case against Dandel lon, though he didn't post it. His absence at the end of D1 could be a tiny bit suspicious, but the fact that he even mentioned Dandel as one of his two scumreads when there were plenty of other options makes me think town.
@kushm4sta: Now that the scum roleblocker is out of the way, you can confirm your role. I see two options: you either RB the person you think is scum (which would appear to be Shady) or you RB someone who is confirmed and therefore unlikely to lie about whether he was RB'd. This choice comes down to how confident you are in a scum Shady. I know it's weird roleblocking someone who we know is town, but there are two upsides. Lvdr will be protected (since the JK acts as a RB+medic combo), and Lvdr will confirm the RB, gaining us another confirmed townie in kush. On the other hand, if you block Shady and there is no night kill, then he was probably the remaining scum. I can see clever ways of messing with this option, but the most likely outcome is that if you block Shady and there is no NK, then Shady is scum. We can keep discussing the strengths of each option in here, but don't say which you're choosing until shortly before the daypost. We don't want the scum to know that you're a safe NK if you RB Lvdr. You have the power now, so keep him in the dark.
How does everyone feel about the cop roleclaiming, if there is one? I think it's pretty safe to do so now, as a fakeclaim would narrow the scum options down to two people. They would likely have more information to give us, as well.
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On second thought, I misspoke regarding the cop roleclaim. What I meant was that if two people claimed cop, then what I said would be the case. If there isn't a cop then the remaining scum could claim it without much danger. According to F11, I think that both having and not having a cop are equally likely.
Unless, of course, someone's been breadcrumbing that he's cop for the entire game. I'd be willing to trust that as a true claim.
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Oh, and in case it wasn't clear from my previous posts, I still think Shady is the final scum.
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GG, I concede. Well played town, nice job keeping things together.
Town got ridiculously lucky with the Dandel read. Mkfuba (who I think is cop) was a lot more scummy from an "active lurking" perspective, Lvdr was lying, and Kush was a bad townie, so Dandel and I thought we had D1 covered.
After D1 came, we both knew Dandel was going to die, so I decided to try and snipe the cop Night 1 and then bus Dandel D2. That didn't happen so I mostly zoned out of the game. I had Mkfuba and Alsn down as possible cops.
Brief notes:
@Lvdr - Well played overall. It was actually my intention from the start of the game to prod you into becoming irrationally angry. You, Kush, and WeeTee, actually. You were our D1 mislynch target until Dandel had a change of heart and went for WT. Then you bit on Dandel, hard, and I decided that it was too late for a D1 bus so I decided to go all out against you and make any read on me you had look like OMGUS in prep for a D2 Dandel bus.
@Thrawn - You were our preferred N1 kill, until the Lvdr Dandel connection came up and we had to switch tactics.
@Mkfuba07 - Well played again. I had you down as a suspected DT from the first six hours of playing, and was going to try and gun you for a D2 mislynch, but then again, the whole Dandel fiasco happened.
@Alsn - Good job. You played a very intelligent, analytical style which helps town immensely. Even if I didn't think you were cop, you would be high up on a scum snipe list. Consider that a compliment.
@Spag - Good job as well. You weren't as clean as Alsn but nice job reading me. However you don't have Lvdr's tunneling ability, next time you should pick that up--might have forced Dandel to bus me D1.
@WeeTee, Kush - I'm lumping you two together since it's obvious that both of you are new to the game. I think the general lesson to draw from this game is never spend more than 10% of your time directly arguing why you are innocent--instead try to spend as much of your time as possible making cases on people. The #1 tug of war in mafia is the concept of "draining the pond"; imagine the scum as fish and the town as the pond. A town that doesn't point fingers at each other all the time is a large pond. By making cases actively, you drain the pond and give the fish less room to hide--they either have to bus each other a lot or make cases against townies which are eventually found false by a mislynch. Special note to Kush: don't claim JK D1, ever. Here you got very lucky in having a sympathetic town. If I was town I would not have believed you and would likely have tunneled you until the very end.
@Dandel - Good game and I'm sorry it didn't work out for us. I think I made a number of mistakes, first and foremost among them not prodding you harder earlier in the game, before Lvdr jumped on you with a full case, and second assuming that town would be as unforgiving of Kush's scummy claim as I would be if I was town. Thanks for the game and I hope to see you again.
And finally, to our hosts Toad, Ghost, and Keir, thanks so much. You guys made the game quite enjoyable.
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On August 29 2012 07:06 mkfuba07 wrote:
Oh, and in case it wasn't clear from my previous posts, I still think Shady is the final scum.
Oh shady is definitely scum. Look at the lynch vote lol...two scum voting for lvdr everyone else voting for dandel.
I'm just going to tell everyone right now that i jailed shadysands. I already sent the message to the mod.
I don't want any more town casualties, and to jail someone else would just allow shady to kill again.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On August 29 2012 07:32 Shady Sands wrote:
@WeeTee, Kush - Special note to Kush: don't claim JK D1, ever. Here you got very lucky in having a sympathetic town. If I was town I would not have believed you and would likely have tunneled you until the very end.
The problem is, kush was screamingly town with that claim. Your reaction to it made me think you were scum and that was correct.
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If only we had a more active town at the D1 lynch deadline... We actually had 4 votes on dandel at one point.
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End Game
It was a good day for our crew. At least it should have been.
The mood was great, everyone was relieved to have found the source of all their troubles when they saw Dandel Ion's blood drip on the ground.
But was really everyone that relieved?
When lvdr & kushm4sta came back from eating their meal they couldn't help but hear someone sobbing silently behind an ajar door.
They both exchanged startled looks, stood still for a moment and tried to comprehend what was being muttered inside.
It's all over... I... I... how am I supposed to go on... I'm the only one left... I can't do it now that Dandel Ion is gone... I just can't go on any longer
When one of them went ahead to open the door a loud bang echoed through the corridor and all they saw was Shady Sands falling to the floor, soaked in blood. His pistol lying next to him.
Shady Sands, the Mafia Goon was found dead in his chamber
Game over. Town won. Improvised End-game post. Deal with it :p
GG everyone
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@shady you fell for my noob trap.
also you should never have pretended to suspect me and you should have just killed me n1.
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Fun to watch guys, interesting game! GG
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Well, that was over rather quickly. Newbie towns winning a lot nowadays. Marv we need you to start coaching scum again.
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My Vote-sheet now even includes proper grammar. Sad thing I only ended up using it for 2 days lol
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All I had to do was find my inner Hapahauli. Then it was easy to find the scum
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On August 29 2012 07:55 kushm4sta wrote:
@shady you fell for my noob trap.
also you should never have pretended to suspect me and you should have just killed me n1.
Don't be smug. Your D1 posting was a horrific train of mistakes, lol
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 07:32 Shady Sands wrote:
Special note to Kush: don't claim JK D1, ever. Here you got very lucky in having a sympathetic town. If I was town I would not have believed you and would likely have tunneled you until the very end.
Strong disagree here. If you're a blue role, claiming D1 is bad play, but if you're gonna get lynched and you can't get out of it, you need to claim your role. Do what it takes to stay alive. Kush certainly claimed prematurely, but claiming if you can't save yourself D1 is fine, no, necessary.
If you tunnel someone who claims blue for the rest of the game as a townie that's just bad play. Base your cases off of scum-motivated actions, lack of scumhunting, and other scumtells instead. Be open to lynching and voting other players.
On August 29 2012 07:55 kushm4sta wrote:
@shady you fell for my noob trap.
also you should never have pretended to suspect me and you should have just killed me n1.
If your "noob trap" was playing really poorly and hoping to get attacked, yes, he did fall for it, but gambits like that are in general a bad idea. This was a rare exception. Playing well and scumhunting should always be your top priority regardless of role.
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GG all.
@Thrawn: Check your bad townie radar.
@kush: I think you need to give yourself some time to think about your posts before you post them. They read as very off-hand and regularly incorrect.
@Alsn: Lynch Deadline...
@Dandel: Watch dat lurkiness
@Shady: I actually like your 'make him rage strategy' but you probably needed more distance from dandel to pull it off.
@All GG!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
herpa derpa derpa wrong thread
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Also is it bm to vote for yourself for MVP?
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On August 29 2012 08:16 Lvdr wrote:Also is it bm to vote for yourself for MVP?
Er, I don't think you were MVP, lol. My nomination would actually go to Thrawn for that.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:20 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:16 Lvdr wrote:Also is it bm to vote for yourself for MVP? Er, I don't think you were MVP, lol. My nomination would actually go to Thrawn for that.
Who would you nominate for scum MVP?
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On August 29 2012 08:21 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:20 Shady Sands wrote:On August 29 2012 08:16 Lvdr wrote:Also is it bm to vote for yourself for MVP? Er, I don't think you were MVP, lol. My nomination would actually go to Thrawn for that. Who would you nominate for scum MVP?
I don't think there was one. We both didn't play well enough to qualify.
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To clarify, I think it was because Lvdr let himself get so bothered that it cost him towncred. I can't imagine a good town player like Keir or Ange doing that.
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Holy christ wat just happened? GG town!
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Thrawn was on the WeeTee Wagon, not good play.
Not gonna lie, the quality of town play in this game was pretty low... we had D1 roleclaims, horrible D1 lynch, people mia at D1 lynch, etc. At one point I would have called about half the town scummy.
Also, Shady why aren't you accusing me of googling the scum QT thread?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:27 Lvdr wrote:
Thrawn was on the WeeTee Wagon, not good play.
Not gonna lie, the quality of town play in this game was pretty low... we had D1 roleclaims, horrible D1 lynch, people mia at D1 lynch, etc. At one point I would have called about half the town scummy.
Also, Shady why aren't you accusing me of googling the scum QT thread?
Let's keep it clean gents
Also, the problem, the main problem with the D1 lynch was that there was no consolidation. 2 hours from the lynch deadline everyone was on different wagons. This is the easiest way to 100% gaurantee that townie gets lynched. Consolidate starting halfway through the day.
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Also, who was the cop? I'm pretty sure there should have been a cop if there was a mafia rb and a jailor.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I was the cop. I checked Shady N1 and got Royal Jelly.
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I was Third Party Planar Peanut Butter.
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Does that mean there was no cop? From how i read the setup, it seemed like if there was a mafia RB then there would be a cop.
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obs qt?
Everyone go over to Newbie 26.
I'm glad town won but honestly it felt very anticlimatic. I sorta expected something like this because of the two scum setup. I was secretly hoping that dandel would go green just because it would make for a longer and more interesting game.
Dandel after D1 I was still not sure that you'd be a good lynch. What changed that was your posts during N1. Gobalt did a similar thing at the end of the last newbie game... you say "I don't have time for this and idc about the game anymore" but then you say you still aren't going to quit. That absolutely sounds like a scum who's given up but still thins they can win. Then I pressured you to quite, and you said you would do so. But then during D2 all of the sudden you still haven't dropped out and are making a case againt lvdr but say you aren't going to post again? It looked exactly similar to gobalt's tactics during nmmxxiv and it was really the only good reason I had for thinking you were scum.
Lvdr: When you first brought up your case against dandel I actually agreed with it. But then dandel pointed out that you had lied about him being extremely experienced, and I began to think about all the other mistakes and lies you had made throughout the game. Like in almost every one of your cases there was a blatant misrepresentation or factual error and it was hard to ignore those.
mkfuba: I thought if dandel flipped green then you were probably scum. I guess I just don't like your hesitant playstyle. The way you responded after me making a case against you convinced me you were town. You defended my accusations and then made a good case against shady, that seemed to be a very townie thing to do.
weetee: dude you gave me every reason possible to vote for you. wth wouldn't you answer my simple question about lvdr?
kush: you should leave emotion out of your posts. you gonna play in newbie 26?
alsn: sorry you had to go you seemed smart from the posts you were able to give. lol I was actually expecting myself to be the NK
spag: at one point I thought you might be scum but it was your huge ass posts during D1 that convinced me otherwise
shady: bro wtf. Right when i was finally willing to consider that you weren't town the whole thing between you and lvdr happened and I was convinced that you two truly were just townies pissed at each other. So good acting/trolling/whatever
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everyone get your asses over to XXVI
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I also nominate lvdr is mvp actually. He was right about BOTH scum.
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On August 29 2012 09:04 thrawn2112 wrote:
obs qt?
Everyone go over to Newbie 26.
I'm glad town won but honestly it felt very anticlimatic. I sorta expected something like this because of the two scum setup. I was secretly hoping that dandel would go green just because it would make for a longer and more interesting game.
Dandel after D1 I was still not sure that you'd be a good lynch. What changed that was your posts during N1. Gobalt did a similar thing at the end of the last newbie game... you say "I don't have time for this and idc about the game anymore" but then you say you still aren't going to quit. That absolutely sounds like a scum who's given up but still thins they can win. Then I pressured you to quite, and you said you would do so. But then during D2 all of the sudden you still haven't dropped out and are making a case againt lvdr but say you aren't going to post again? It looked exactly similar to gobalt's tactics during nmmxxiv and it was really the only good reason I had for thinking you were scum.
Lvdr: When you first brought up your case against dandel I actually agreed with it. But then dandel pointed out that you had lied about him being extremely experienced, and I began to think about all the other mistakes and lies you had made throughout the game. Like in almost every one of your cases there was a blatant misrepresentation or factual error and it was hard to ignore those.
mkfuba: I thought if dandel flipped green then you were probably scum. I guess I just don't like your hesitant playstyle. The way you responded after me making a case against you convinced me you were town. You defended my accusations and then made a good case against shady, that seemed to be a very townie thing to do.
weetee: dude you gave me every reason possible to vote for you. wth wouldn't you answer my simple question about lvdr?
kush: you should leave emotion out of your posts. you gonna play in newbie 26?
alsn: sorry you had to go you seemed smart from the posts you were able to give. lol I was actually expecting myself to be the NK
spag: at one point I thought you might be scum but it was your huge ass posts during D1 that convinced me otherwise
shady: bro wtf. Right when i was finally willing to consider that you weren't town the whole thing between you and lvdr happened and I was convinced that you two truly were just townies pissed at each other. So good acting/trolling/whatever
No I knew I was dead. No point replacing somebody in, in that situation imo.
For the record, I did still officially ask for a replacement, because in the off chance I was NOT lynched day 2, I'd still have needed a replacement.
I'm kinda mad about how day 1 happened, btw. Everyone jumps me for "lurking" when I specifically said that I was gonna be absent for a large part of the day, and then everybody ignores how Lvdr's 'case' is just a bunch of lies and bullshit.
I don't understand it.
I'm also pretty certain my posts would have been almost exactly the same if I was town - the only real difference is that I wouldn't have gotten a replacement, and instead asked for a modkill (aka, just not voting). Since that'd be better for town in that situation, no day wasted on the lynch and all.
My activity wouldn't have changed, work is still a shit, GW2 is still out, and I would have been mad enough at town/lvdr for being morons (imo) to not post.
But yeah, this game was over with the day 1 lynch. In hindsight, I should've yelled at Shady in all caps to bus me instantly, but I still thought the situation salvagable.
I did not expect people to buy Lvdr's case, ever. Serious overestimation on my part.
Also, I'm sorry for screwing Shady over. He was playing pretty well.
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my reasoning was that if you were town you would have still tried to scumhunt even if you knew you were going to die
something just didn't seem right
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On August 29 2012 10:10 thrawn2112 wrote:
my reasoning was that if you were town you would have still tried to scumhunt even if you knew you were going to die
something just didn't seem right
I know myself very well, and I wouldn't have.
Because fuck that.
Also, I am/was a serious GW addict and I need my fix.
I know what it'd look like, but I promise you I wouldn't have done shit anymore. I would've thought "this town can lose for all I care".
Not saying that that's ALWAYS what I'd do, but if I have ~2 hours of free time a day at max, I'd rather spend it with something fun, instead of answering lvdr and getting ignored, just so he can make random shit up a few hours later.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'm kinda mad about how day 1 happened, btw. Everyone jumps me for "lurking" when I specifically said that I was gonna be absent for a large part of the day,
Stating you have IRL problems is something I specifically ignore in Mafia. It's meaningless. It does nothing to prove anything. I almost consider it cheating, it's just really bad form and personally I think it's worthless. Any time someone says something like that I just mentally blank it out.
Any scum could make that up as an excuse, you know.
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If there's anything that kind of bothers me about this game, it's being told by Dandel midway through N1 that I was getting a new scum team member, then not hearing a peep about that for the next 48 hours. That really threw me for a loop as I had no way to coordinate a bus or do anything D2.
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On August 29 2012 10:32 Shady Sands wrote:
If there's anything that kind of bothers me about this game, it's being told by Dandel midway through N1 that I was getting a new scum team member, then not hearing a peep about that for the next 48 hours. That really threw me for a loop as I had no way to coordinate a bus or do anything D2.
As I said, I PM'd ghost for one.
He said something about asking somebody, and I never heard anything again. Not like it would've mattered if somebody else went to the chopping block for me.
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@ Dandel Ion:
Well it isn't so much about what you would or wouldn't do as town - it's about this game and what you should have done to keep yourself alive as mafia, no? While I didn't think you were scummy at all D1, you needed to do more to get yourself out of the lynch on D2. You could have been much more proactive in your defense and probably could have gotten Lvdr lynched if you tried harder.
This is gonna be my last post (very last, probably) because I'm not gonna be here at fliptime.
So since I'll have to vote somebody, I'll vote Lvdr. For not being able to read. And for making up shit all the damn time.
##vote Lvdr
Certainly you could do much better than the above to push a lynch, no? I actually find it hard to believe you'd post something like this as town, having played with you in XXIII.
EDIT: Oh nvm, looks like Dandel wanted to replace out. Still, can't exactly criticize the town for lynching you when you weren't availible to defend yourself.
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On August 29 2012 10:35 Hapahauli wrote:@ Dandel Ion:Well it isn't so much about what you would or wouldn't do as town - it's about this game and what you should have done to keep yourself alive as mafia, no? While I didn't think you were scummy at all D1, you needed to do more to get yourself out of the lynch on D2. You could have been much more proactive in your defense and probably could have gotten Lvdr lynched if you tried harder. Show nested quote +This is gonna be my last post (very last, probably) because I'm not gonna be here at fliptime.
So since I'll have to vote somebody, I'll vote Lvdr. For not being able to read. And for making up shit all the damn time.
##vote Lvdr Certainly you could do much better than the above to push a lynch, no? I actually find it hard to believe you'd post something like this as town, having played with you in XXIII.
I don't think I could have, realistically.
I could have thrown down a larger, better-worded post, yes. But I wouldn't have been able to do anything else, no follow-ups, nothing. I am convinced it would've never been enough to get an actual lynch off on Lvdr.
Not enough time, and it sucked. Majorly. But eh, what can you do....
€: Nvm at you too, then
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Hey guys!
What's going on in this thread?
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
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Well, that went a lot faster than expected, to say the least ^^
Tomorrow, I'll sit down and do the write up. I'm genuinely curious as to how exactly this happened. I mean, I expected the game to be slightly more volatile than the C9++ setup, but this is something else... Probably won't be hosting another F11 for a while.
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On August 29 2012 11:20 ghost_403 wrote:
Well, that went a lot faster than expected, to say the least ^^
Tomorrow, I'll sit down and do the write up. I'm genuinely curious as to how exactly this happened. I mean, I expected the game to be slightly more volatile than the C9++ setup, but this is something else... Probably won't be hosting another F11 for a while.
Ghost, the real big problem was that I couldn't coordinate with Dandel after he went out of the game, and I never got a replacement to help me D2.
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Hey guys.
I was the cop. I misplayed day one by not being awake in time to save Weetee, if I was there I am certain we would have got Dandelion, and then town investigated Shady sands that night. I was instead too late to save weetee (my bad), and investigated dandelion instead knowing that he would be the next lynch target. He flipped red, so I made a non-committal move against him hoping to get him lynched without making myself a NK target. The momentum was good, and so he went down without too much fuss.
I was in a position where I could have either been very aggressive, as Alsn had got lynched and was the closest position to my own. If I had have been night-killed, the town would almost certainly have realised the pattern of anybody accusing SS and Dandelion goes down, and planned their next lynches accordingly. The other option was to not make too much noise, and silently secure both mafia (I was pretty certain it was Dandel Ion and SS), then rolecall and have them both lynched for an end-game gambit. This was the course I chose, but the fallout between the scum team preceded this eventuality making this course of action unnecessary.
@Thrawn: I was unaware that the roles were randomised, I made the assumption that all of the roles mentioned in the OP were present in the game, and this was a horrible thing to do. Even worse, I made mention of there being a cop, and a clever scum may have traced the basis of this assumption and got me lynched. I deliberately ignored any talk of there being cops from that point on hoping that nobody would catch on. While I think that at times you were conditionally irrational, I overplayed this hoping to lose you enough credit so that my reads would take precedence, without having to roll-call cop. I did have an inkling suspicion on you, but nothing in comparison to my reads on Dandel and SS.
@Alsn: Your death was not for nothing! You were my strongest town read from the start after thrawn, and when I started doubting him I was relying heavily on you being town. You getting NK made me much more certain of my reads, and gave me security against nightkills (though it turned out I wouldn't need this).
@Kush: I too think your rolecall was the best course of action under the circumstances. I don't think your 'noob trap' is the best play the majority of the time, but it is fun and made the game interesting. If it was in fact intentional, which I suspect it may have been, it did give me very clear signals on SS, and worked out for the best.
@SS: I pulled my tunneling back for two reasons:
a) I'm both busy and lazy, preferring to do less when at all possible. I also live in Australia which can make it difficult to get stuff done at the right time.
b) I was cop and didn't want to bring attention to myself if at all possible. Although apparently in the QT I was suspected by at least one person, I was getting no indicators that I needed to step up my game from within the thread, and so thought it best to lurk a bit.
It's unfortunate that there was such discontent within the mafia fold, this cut the game shorter than it normally would. On top of this, I'm pretty sure seven town to two mafia would be fairly town favoured statistically. Regardless, it is nice to win my first game, and I look forward to playing with you all in the future!!
<3
----,--'-@
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spag when I put that fos on mkfuba and you responded, I immediately thought that you and mk were a potential scumteam. I actually did pick up on how much you were overplaying how irrational you thought I was and the FOS seemed extremely uncalled for. I make a case against mk, and immediately someone puts an fos on me, calls me dumb without giving examples why, and doesn't actually respond to anything I said about mk? And then mk himself puts an fos against me? Apparently you did it with town motivations but at the time it really looked scummy. I ended up not committing to the read because I reread your filter and got a pretty strong town read from it so I decided to drop the issue until after the dandel flip. If dandel would have flipped green I would have probably thought you and mk were the scumteam.
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Yeah I figured as much. At the time I knew that Dandel would flip red, so I was going to use this to both convince you that I'm worth listening to (as we had been banging heads a fair bit), but also make the other town prioritise my opinion over yours so I could get town backing if Shady flipped red on my next investigation.
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yeah i just couldn't see the town motivations for that post at the time. now it makes sense knowing that you're cop... but it was definitely your scummiest post
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Also to clear up the 'experience' read on dandel.
In Newbie III (which I played with him) he was a key player for the town. Whether he's played a lot of games or not, he showed skills that I didn't think he was applying in this game.
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On August 29 2012 13:53 Lvdr wrote:
Also to clear up the 'experience' read on dandel.
In Newbie III (which I played with him) he was a key player for the town. Whether he's played a lot of games or not, he showed skills that I didn't think he was applying in this game.
I think if you would have explained that before the d1 wouldn't have been tricked by shady into doubting your case on dandel... sorry lol
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Also it seems my town meta is extremely scummy. Hasn't gotten me lynched yet lol.
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I think I got kinda lazy d1 because I was so convinced I got dandel. I thought if i tunneled hard enough, with no other real options(I thought) we would lynch and he would flip red.
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On August 29 2012 13:55 Lvdr wrote:
Also it seems my town meta is extremely scummy. Hasn't gotten me lynched yet lol.
my town meta is to be the direct and original cause of a D1 mislynch
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My town meta is to look slightly scummy to town and like a blue role to scum.
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I don't mean to say its intentional lol. Its just how its happened.
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Yeah, me either. I'm just not sure how to come up with convincing cases early. Like, my cases don't even convince myself XD
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 11:53 Spaghetticus wrote:
... thought it best to lurk a bit.
I have never thought this.
On August 29 2012 11:53 Spaghetticus wrote:
It's unfortunate that there was such discontent within the mafia fold, this cut the game shorter than it normally would. On top of this, I'm pretty sure seven town to two mafia would be fairly town favoured statistically. Regardless, it is nice to win my first game, and I look forward to playing with you all in the future!!
In straight-up numbers, 7-2 is MASSIVELY mafia favored before counting in blue roles. If you had a mountainous 7-2 game and all lynches and nks are random:
D1 (7-2) 77% chance of lynching town
D2 (5-2) 71% chance of lynching town
D3 (3-2) 60% chance of lynching town (S win)
D4 (2-1) 67% chance of lynching town (S win) or 33% chance of lynching scum (T win)
D3 (4-1) 80% chance of lynching town (S win)
D4 (2-1) 67% chance of lynching town (S win) or 33% chance of lynching scum (T win)
D2 (6-1) 86% chance of lynching town (S win)
D3 (4-1) 80% chance of lynching town (S win)
D4 (2-1) 67% chance of lynching town (S win) or 33% chance of lynching scum (T win)
So basically what we see is, scum has a lot of paths to victory.
The odds of town winning with 2 correct lynches in a row is is a meager 5%, and even if town gets the first lynch right, you're looking at 25% chance of winning from that point.
At best, town's pulling in like a 20% winrate without accounting for power roles. 7-2 is only balanced because you give town a cop AND a doctor usually.
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That doesn't consider that there are only 2 scum to find. As we saw here, a somewhat unexpected d1 accusation turned out to be on point and smoked out scum 2.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 14:12 Lvdr wrote:
That doesn't consider that there are only 2 scum to find. As we saw here, a somewhat unexpected d1 accusation turned out to be on point and smoked out scum 2.
Well, it considers that there are 2 scum, it just doesn't consider that one might implicate the other. It's not about strategy. Indeed, it also doesn't consider that scum could vote as a bloc and fight town, making them very very strong in 2-scum LYLO.
It assumes utterly random voting and lynching. But the fact of the matter is, scum have scumtells, which makes this a bit easier, and associative tells if you flip one. Also, you get blues.
But the point is all this relies on scumhunting and playing. If this game was played by randomly-voting robots, town would lose a lot. Blues and scumhunting balance it.
EDIT: but to look at how this game played out and to assuming that 7-2 games are inherently town-favored is just incorrect. DL got what was coming to him given how he played, and Shady also scumslipped a lot. Newbie games are very swingy.
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On August 29 2012 14:24 Blazinghand wrote: Newbie games are very swingy.
I don't think anyone saw 24 ending up how it did
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 14:30 thrawn2112 wrote:I don't think anyone saw 24 ending up how it did
GK did lolololo
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Oh really? Those are some good stats BlazingHand, thank you. TBH I was simply assuming it would be town favoured because otherwise the scum would not be required to take any risks, which lead to a very small chance of exposing yourself. If it is the case that Mafia are not required to take risks, then wouldn't they just act as townish as possible? Couldn't you simply not read your role slip and assume you're vanilla town, and act accordingly?
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On August 29 2012 14:42 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 14:30 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 29 2012 14:24 Blazinghand wrote: Newbie games are very swingy. I don't think anyone saw 24 ending up how it did GK did lolololo
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 29 2012 15:04 Spaghetticus wrote:
Oh really? Those are some good stats BlazingHand, thank you. TBH I was simply assuming it would be town favoured because otherwise the scum would not be required to take any risks, which lead to a very small chance of exposing yourself. If it is the case that Mafia are not required to take risks, then wouldn't they just act as townish as possible? Couldn't you simply not read your role slip and assume you're vanilla town, and act accordingly?
Maybe, but at some point you have to talk to your partner to determine night kills. I guess you could just like not read his screen-name or whatever.
The big thing is that with a 2-scum setup in addition to working together to mislynch townies you have to balance in bussing/distancing since if your ally gets dead you really need to not get RBed. Also, if there's a cop around stakes are really high.
In theory, you should be pretending to be a VT anyways as scum.
EDIT: what i'm trying to say basically is that if all you do is block out the name of your ally in your mind and try to play "normally" this still may not work, because even if you play perfectly, a good cop will either catch you or catch everyone but you, and then you're at MYLO and there's a claimed cop who investigated the other two townies and says you must be scum.
Or maybe a well-intentioned JK "saves" you and stops the NK. Blue roles change everything.
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Could you also give me a read on my play? Do you think I come off as scummy? Someone in the QT thought I was pretty scummy at the start, but I don't see myself acting at all scummy until I started getting confident and/or lazy near the end. From this game, what would you categorise my meta as? I was going for 'rational with nothing to hide', which could potentially cause problems if I roll scum and people go back and read my meta.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I honestly wasn't paying a hyooooj amount of attention to this game. I just checked the voting patterns near the end of D1 and was like "welp town is boned" then at the end of D2 I saw scum was lynched.
In any case, don't worry about things like meta. I don't think about meta much. Just hunt scum and present cases. If you're scum, do the same thing but different.
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@Spaghetti:
You actually were my #1 cop read.
But Shady thought it was Alsn, and I thought it'd be better to NK Alsn anyways, since you kinda didn't do anything.
imo lynching dangerous players > trying to snipe blues that are not really dangerous. (hence why we didn't kill kush)
Also, I couldn't be sure if there even WAS a cop.
So it was Alsn.
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