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On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote:When I first saw it last night I saw it the same way that you do, but then I read this. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:
I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less.
This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that. So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid. The rest of the case is much less developed. 1. semi-lurking 2. posting inconsistently 3. waiting for cases to sheep These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger. In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced. as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town. If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter. As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again.
@DarthPunk:
I hope you realize that the post you quoted by Zorkmid was the one where he lied about the relief post being made by Prom and leading to Prom's mislynch. I can only repeat myself. The relief post was made by goodkarma. And not by Prom. Zork lied!
And he addressed both, aRyuujin and MrMedic in that post.
I didn't vote for Golbat because of any kind of scumslip. I voted for him because I thought he behaved scummily. And now I am voting for Zork not because he is a lurker. But because of his slip in addition to his always wishy-washy stance.
I think your case against Mordanis is good. But right now, I am not willing to vote for someone, whom I think has a decent chance of flipping scum when I am convinced that Zork will flip scum!
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On August 03 2012 20:35 DarthPunk wrote:
Yeah I know he said the wrong person. He is very confused and constantly make mistakes. But if you replace prom with GK the intent behind it is Plausible.
But he should not make these mistakes. He claims that he is a thoughtful poster and therefore has not contributed that much as other players may have. Being this thoughtful such an obvious mistake should not happen. This should prove that his lurking has nothing to do with being thoughtful and careful rather than he is intentionally lurking.
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it.
About the MrMedic thing: Ok, I can see another way to explain that.
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On August 03 2012 21:03 DarthPunk wrote:
He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them.
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever.
This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful.
Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do.
Okay, your explanation is as lot of WIFOM but I guess you could say the same to mine :D
When town plays mafia, they don't know any other role than their own. Therefore everything that's said will be scrutinzed and read over and over again in every little detail.
When scum plays mafia, they know everyone's roles. Therefore they are more looking for things that can be used to make other people scummy than analyzing every post town has made. So they will focus on what they can use and maybe be a little lazy when reading. And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well.
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On August 03 2012 21:41 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:34 Ange777 wrote:
And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well. Yep. You are exactly right. that is why I can't be 100% sure if he is playing badly as scum or playing badly as town.
So tell me why you say that the mistake seems to only give you a town vibe? Or did I misunderstand that earlier post?
On August 03 2012 21:03 DarthPunk wrote:
He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them.
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever.
This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful.
Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do.
On August 03 2012 22:13 DarthPunk wrote:
@ange777
We seem to have exactly the same positions as each other on our respective lynches. I don't supposed I have convinced you to vote for Mordanis again?
Sorry no :D I really hope that Shady, alan and aRyuujin show up though. I have not seen them take part in this discussion so maybe they will consider my case on Zork.
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I'll be out now and will hopefully be back 1-2 hours before the deadline.
@DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion?
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Hey guys, sorry I missed the deadline but we finally lynched scum! Good job 
I only quickly skimmed through and what I saw proves me right in my case against scum Jingle. It starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#752
If there are any doubts, I strongly urge you to go back and re-read that post and the following conversation with Jingle. Furthermore Shady did an awesome case on Jingle and explained the motive for that more than obvious fake claim pretty well.
It's after 2 am now, so I'll be off to bed. I will definitely be back before deadline to give my read for the remaining scum besides Jingle.
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@Jingle:
On August 04 2012 07:48 JingleHell wrote:
My primary defense will be that I'm a much worse target than Alan. Given that I'm under suspicion for some rather paltry WIFOM based on one of a couple of things.
1: When I ask people why they said something, they repeat it, and OMGUS me.
2: I came in looking at people who weren't the major targets, which, ironically, people wanted me to do.
I guess that is referring to me again:
1. You asked me why I would make a case against Shady. I said it's because I was suspicious of him. Then you twist my words saying that is no defense because I didn't give a reason for being suspicious of him. My reasons were stated in the case against Shady which originally lead to your suspicions against me. You were just deliberately wasting my time and trying to discredit me.
2. I never once said that I wanted you to look at major targets. I have repeated myself over and over again explaining that I only wanted to know whether or not you had more reads except for Shady. When I started my case on Zork, he was no major target at all. Still you refused to comment on him for a long time.
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On August 03 2012 23:04 DarthPunk wrote:@Jingle @Ange777 Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 22:19 Ange777 wrote:
@DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion? Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 06:01 Ange777 wrote:
But only a couple of hours later (to be precise directly after I had posted my case against Zork) you had miraculously not only finished reading the thread, no you also had a very strong conviction that I am scummy. Based on arguments you yet have to show me. And while you have been tunneling me you have totally ignored my case on Zork based on his scumslip and the following reactions.
Would you please give me a town motivation for ignoring the case on Zork? Oh, and please keep in mind, attacking me doesn't qualify as a defense! So this is just wrong. Jingle started airing suspicions against you well before you started going after zork. In no way is the jingle situation between you and him relevant to the zork case. I don't know why you would draw that connection at all. If you had read the last game you will see that jingle caught scum by Identifying and avoiding a similar situation so it is understandable that he would be on the look out for a repeat of that. Your response to him was OMGUS and WIFOM. I can understand why he finds you suspicious, particularly when you immediately become super aggressive towards him when he posts a case on you. I don't really think you have a case on him to be honest. I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me. I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. It seems to be OMGUS. but I don't like the fact that several aspects of your case (Jingle connection, MrMedic post) seem to have fallen apart on closer inspection and the fact that many of the other points could just be bad town play, makes me even more wary of following your lynch on Zork. It seems like it is just an attempt to make an easy mislynch on a lurky bad town player. [/b]
Okay, to be precise Jingle started so voice his suspicions against me directly after Shady claimed mason. But he seemed to be really strongly convinced that I am scum after I made the case on Zork as Jingle then voted me. That's what I meant for the timing.
I think I have explained why Jingle's case was really ridiciulous more than enough. If you still haven't understood why I am happy to refer you to someone else's explanation:
On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote:
@JingleHell+ Show Spoiler +What the hell? What's up with that most painfully narrow tunnel I have ever seen? Why do you make me regret saying I adore your play? How does: - suggesting you to post more reads because you are new and might open more perspective to town
- proceed to post another case on people HE ALREADY HAVE HIS FOS ON
- OH WAIT! HIS CASE HAS THE SAME AS MY TARGET!!! I DON'T GET IT!!!
Why do he needs to explain a townie motive? How do you explain one? What motive could he have, at all. How about, give me a townie motive for tunnelling and voting on such a ridiculous case? I don't see a townie motive. Mind explaining yourself? I suggest you drop your case on Ange, and votes one of the candidates here instead, as it is very possible that there is a SCUM in here. + Show Spoiler +Oh wait I need to explain a townie motivation. How about REDUCING THE RISK OF GETTING A NO LYNCH?. In all seriousness, mind posting something that is other than: + Show Spoiler +Target's latest defence against No! You did not explain a town motive! I vote you ##v0t3 example1over a thousand times?
I admit my responses might have gotten a tiny little bit bitchy in the end but that was due to the fact that I did answer every single question from Jingle and yet he always claimed that he could not see a defense or a town motivation. And I don't believe my replys were disproportionate as every question Jingle asked could have been answered by looking at previous posts I made.
Initially Jingle got my suspicions because of the timing he started to cast suspicion on me but I can promise you that I am not pushing for his lynch only based on the connection to Zork but for the worst case I have ever seen which is clear scum motivation.
By the way you state that my discussion with Jingle made you think I am scummy. Your reasoning please! And don't tell me it's because of the tone of my answers because that was totally appropriate for such a nonsense case.
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On August 04 2012 22:44 JingleHell wrote:
I'm going to try and get this concept through people's skulls one more time. My reasoning for suspecting Ange was not for any specific thing he said. It was for the timing of asking me to post cases on people besides Shady, followed by immediately adding evidence to the case against Shady.
It looked like an effort to give me a confirmation bias.
I was asking about motives. Not about semantics. (Granted, semantics seems to be the only thing you people understand)
When I asked you for your reads, you had just posted the following:
On August 02 2012 02:55 JingleHell wrote:
This inactivity is ridiculous, people. Post. Lurking town = free scum win, so POST. Create opportunity.
This was after you had posted your one read on Shady. One single read. I guess in your opinion it is not approriate for town to ask you to stick to your own advice: Create opportunities.
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@DarthPunk, aRyuujin, alan: Where have you guys gone? There has been cases and suspicions on you and I sincerely hope that you will come back before deadline to defend yourselves! Even if we have night right now, it does not prevent you from proving that you are indeed playing for town!
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@goodkarma: We don't need a "town leader". We are currently at Night 3 and everyone of us should have some decent scum and town reads on the others. If everyone just steps up their activity we can lynch both remaining scum.
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@alan: Your defense post better be overwhelmingly good ... it took you at least two hours already.
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@alan: So you are saying that tunneling other players without a solid case is Jingle's town meta? I have a hard time believing that ...
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EBWOP: If it indeed was his town meta, than I suppose it would not be far fetched to at least see him tunnel someone else right now? And yet when I see his case on you and compare it with him endlessly tunneling me I feel there is a huge huge difference.
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Because apparently people know your meta and would have called you out directly based on that?
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So I guess there is a pretty decent chance that I might be shot tonight. As I already stated I am convinced that we have nailed the second scum in Jingle. Veto the case as much as you want Jingle, there is no way you can wriggle yourself out of this. Extremely obvious scum play like this can't be ignored.
On to the third scum. Based on the theory Shady already mentioned with scum actively trying to counter bandwagon the Zork case there is one more player I think we need to analyze closely. Very much unsuspected by most of the players ... DarthPunk. I believe only goodkarma called him out. Originally I had a town read on him, he came across as a thoughtful poster who analyzed the play of others first before jumping on any kind of bandwagon. Under normal circumstances I probably still wouldn't have noticed him but the recent situation with Zork made me reconsider. See for yourselves:
The first time he mentions the Zork case he says the following:
On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:
@ ange777.
The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases. The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from.
He just states that he doesn't have a strong read because Zork is too lurky. He puts Zork and aRyuujin into the same category although Zork has posted far more than aRyuujin. He admits that the slip and the lurking are suspicious, yet he does not take any step in pressuring Zork for more information.
The next time he talks about Zork:
On August 03 2012 12:57 DarthPunk wrote:
on zorkmid
There is a case on Zork. I just feel like it is weaker than the case on Mordanis. Add that to the fact that mord is once again ad hearing to his Modus Operandi.
He says the case is weaker. No reasons. When I ask him for his reasoning:
On August 03 2012 18:40 DarthPunk wrote:Ok my analysis - ignoring the scum slip which I will get to later. Zork is playing really badly. He is playing really badly as town OR as scum. He has been confused more than once as to what is happening in the game, who he has suspicions on etc. Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 22:02 Zorkmid wrote:
I honestly just forgot about SS, but your accusation has led me to go back through his filter. I've noticed that he has never addressed my accusation about him. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:
@ ange777.
The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases. What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Which makes me tend to believe him when he says that he is not paying attention to the thread because of IRL commitments. Because why? what are the scum motivations behind his posts? This is still bad play and hurts town. As I said earlier It isn't easy to get a scum read when there has been so little activity from him. His posts make no sense as either scum or town. He is Lurking though. If we get to LYLO and we have nothing to go off in terms of reads that is a major liability. on the scum slip. @ange777 I don't think your logic is as iron clad as you believe. Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness What I think he is trying to say is this. He thinks saying this is scummy. No town player would need to say this, he is town so he wouldn't say it. It is WIFOM and speculation and is written poorly. (which I hate) yet can't see a scum motivation or plan for this. It is possible that he is scum and that this is the evidence. It is also possible that he is bad at explaining himself, a poor writer and you are reading too much into this. Your entire case is based around reading a few statements a certain way, and thus seems to be weaker than my case on mordanis and weaker than your case on mordanis (that you seem to have dropped off the face of the earth). If it comes to a no lynch situation I will be willing to change my vote. (as everyone should be) but at this time the cases on Mordanis are far stronger. If people are set on lynching lurky players aRyuujin is a stronger lynch IMO. He has less than a one page filter he votes Golbat day 1. went AFK for 2 cycles comes back and puts a vote on mord that just echos my position and then leaves again. I wish we still had a Vig cause aRyuujin has been and will increasingly become a serious liability.
A huge soft defense on Zork. DarthPunk explains that everything I believe makes Zork scummy can be explained as bad town play. Therefore there would be no evidence for lynching Zork and instead we should just lynch aRyuujin if we were after a lurker.
When I again push DarthPunk for more reasons on why he thinks Zork is town he states:
On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote:When I first saw it last night I saw it the same way that you do, but then I read this. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:
I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less.
This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that. So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid. -snip- as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town. If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter. As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again.
His first sentence says that at first he saw it the same way as I did? But he never once mentioned that in the beginning. He then proceeds to explain that scumslips are not indicative at all as we mislynched Golbat based on a misperceived scumslip. I really don't know which "scumslip" he is referring to. Again he goes on to defend Zork without properly giving any other reason than he might be town. And again he emphasizes that we should really lynch aRyuujin instead. Interesting ...
When I confront him about why I think my discussion with Jingle makes me think that I hit home with the case on Zork he says:
On August 03 2012 23:04 DarthPunk wrote:
So this is just wrong. Jingle started airing suspicions against you well before you started going after zork. In no way is the jingle situation between you and him relevant to the zork case. I don't know why you would draw that connection at all. If you had read the last game you will see that jingle caught scum by Identifying and avoiding a similar situation so it is understandable that he would be on the look out for a repeat of that. Your response to him was OMGUS and WIFOM. I can understand why he finds you suspicious, particularly when you immediately become super aggressive towards him when he posts a case on you. I don't really think you have a case on him to be honest.
I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me.
I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. It seems to be OMGUS. but I don't like the fact that several aspects of your case (Jingle connection, MrMedic post) seem to have fallen apart on closer inspection and the fact that many of the other points could just be bad town play, makes me even more wary of following your lynch on Zork. It seems like it is just an attempt to make an easy mislynch on a lurky bad town player.
He explains that he now believes me scummy and that my replys were disproportinate. And does not explain what exactly made him change his mind. He further states that he can't see any kind of scum motivation for a scum Jingle to tunnel me and discredit me when I am pushing the case on scum Zork. But he was able to see so much town motivation for Zork's play to defend him over and over again. And again he mentions that I am trying to get a lurker lynched while I have repeatedly said that my main reason for lynching Zork is not his semi-lurking.
Next is his vote switch timing. It's very close to Zork's fake medic claim. Very very close.
On August 04 2012 03:05 Zorkmid wrote:
I didn't want to have to do this just yet.
I am a Doctor
On August 04 2012 03:07 DarthPunk wrote:
so are we headed towards a no lynch now? I did say I would change my vote to zorkmid to stop a nolynch. Although I think he is probably just a bad town.
I find it unbelievable mord is escaping a lynch once again.
##:Unvote
##:vote: zorkmid
The timing is so close that I could say that scum discussed their situation in the scum QT and decided to concede in the Zork lynch. Why would DarthPunk otherwise switch his vote? There was still a lot of time for him to potentially convince others to vote for Mordanis. This is no last minute vote switch just to ensure that there is a majority at the deadline. And it's not like he was heading to bed anyway and needed to put the vote on Zork before leaving as he was still awake an hour later.
On August 04 2012 04:16 DarthPunk wrote:
Right it's 5am and I have stayed up far too long. night all.
I believe that the scum team was desperately trying to save Zork. Which is exactly why our thread suddenly exploded when the case on Zork started. So scum definitely went all in with their defense for Zork. I see a lot of scum motivation for DarthPunk to over and over push for the Mordanis lynch, to discredit the Zork case as a lurker case, to soft defend Zork and to try to convince town into compromise into lynching aRyuujin instead.
So after Zork and Jingle, my third scum member would be DarthPunk. I have seen the cases against alan and aRyuujin and while there are some valid points I believe it is more likely for DarthPunk to flip red than those two. If DarthPunk were to flip green, alan would be my first scum pick and aRyuujin my last scum pick. I have to admit though that aRyuujin is behind alan due to the fact that his excessive lurking has left me with little to analyze and therefore I am not that confident in his alignment.
Edit: Mordanis ninja'd my case. I didn't want to post that early before deadline.
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GG Mordanis
##Vote JingleHell
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On August 05 2012 06:03 JingleHell wrote:
Well, whoever RBed me seems to have failed to stop the NK. Good job.
If you can get anyone to claim having RBed you, than congrats we've got the third scum.
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On August 05 2012 06:08 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 06:06 Ange777 wrote:On August 05 2012 06:03 JingleHell wrote:
Well, whoever RBed me seems to have failed to stop the NK. Good job. If you can get anyone to claim having RBed you, than congrats we've got the third scum. Why would a scum have RBed me if I'm such a blatant scum, Ange? Why not a Town RB? Wouldn't that make more sense?
Because I am pretty sure you are just fake claiming your RB to survive this day. Zork claimed doc, therefore scum know that it was a doc who prevented the night 1 kill and not a roleblocker. With 1 doc, 1 vig and 2 masons I don't think there is another town power role.
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EPT
