EPTI just want to add before I sleep though that I feel like the discussion so far today has been extremely good. I'm feeling more confident in our ability to lynch scum now.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXII - Page 4
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I just want to add before I sleep though that I feel like the discussion so far today has been extremely good. I'm feeling more confident in our ability to lynch scum now. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
You are acting so close to the way you acted in XIX :o Changing your posting patterns/habits after day 1 - check Buddying up with people - check Repeating town/pro-town/etc a lot - check Trying to help lead discussion - check Like I said, if you are town, I really don't want to mislynch you. But I'm certainly not convinced that you are town yet. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:20 alan133 wrote: @Keir Seems like Keir has not replied, I noticed he is sleeping, so while I eagerly wait for his response: I'm not exactly sure what you want me to reply to. I assume you are talking about this: + Show Spoiler + On July 30 2012 19:23 alan133 wrote: @Kei + Show Spoiler + On July 30 2012 04:13 Keirathi wrote: You are right, scum can push agendas from "bad" discussion. That's exactly what I said. My point was that pointing out every little thing that you find scummy isn't helping the thread find scum, because one or two little scummy blips does not a scum make. THAT'S the reason I put my scum reads all into one big post. Its much harder for scum to refute a lot of points at one time than one or two points on multiple occasions. Also, things like my reply to goodkarma ARE scum hunting in a sense. By saying that I find people townie, I am narrowing down my suspect list. The problem I have against you is that you were not standing out nor wanting to commit to a case. You argued that you don't want to make "bad cases" in case scums make use of it. While I don't totally agree: How are we supposed to scum hunt during the day without putting the pressure on based on any little evidence we found, in the night post you changed your position and suddenly encourages us people, who made cases based on one or two scumslip, to keep up with building more cases. It seems like when you talk about not wanting to build "bad cases", you are putting yourself in a position to sit back, while encourage other players to go at against each other, and then finally build your own case based on how the discussion is going. The "refrain from building bad case" was meant to excuse yourself when people accuse you of lacking scum hunting commitment. I don't buy the "narrowing down" suspects as a form of scum hunting. Not really much to comment on though. I don't believe that one or two little scummy things necessarily makes someone scum, but PATTERNS of scummy things do. All the cases that I've posted have been based on patterns of doing things that I find scummy. I understand that without a little pressure, people aren't going to voluntarily make those scummy mistakes though. It's just my way of playing, and it might be wrong, or bad, or whatever you want to call it, but it has worked for me in my past games. I got called out in I Can't Believe Its Not Themed game for not making solid day 1 reads and insisting that I preferred making reads based on patterns/connections as well. I just hate being wrong, and its much easier to be right when I have more to go on. As far as changing my position and suddenly encouraging people to make cases based on one or two scumslips after the night post, can you point out exactly where I did that. I looked back through my filter and I don't see me saying that at all, so I'd specifically like to know what post you misunderstood. On July 31 2012 04:20 alan133 wrote: When I read about your night post urging other people to make cases, my impression on you is that you were scummy to try to wait for other players to chip in their cases, which allow you to judge who to go after that could have benefit scum. I went through the day 1 post up to Golbat's lynch focusing on your posts and found you it matches what I thought: your filter reveals while you were posting a lot, you did not make any hard stance against any players. You made one case which leads to your vote on Golbat, and spent most other time deflecting cases against you, and other times defending players, or trying to befriend new players. I made 3 cases, not one. I just felt stronger about Golbat at the time than Mordanis or GK. Again, you'll notice that all 3 cases were about patterns of things I found scummy. Golbat with repeatedly changing his mind, GK for repeatedly interrupting discussion to start talking about lurkers again, and Mordanis for repeatedly trying to assert that I wasn't a blue role. On July 31 2012 04:20 alan133 wrote: I moved over looking at your day 2 posts and found out you actually did some scum hunting on your own, which partially negate my claim that you were "not aligning early towards any scum reads". However, I am not a big fan of your "small talk" with Promethelax about a past game you guys were in. Please focus on this game only, unless you meant to mention how Promethelax plays in the past to build a case. I wasn't kidding when I said I wanted everyone to completely read back through day 1 while knowing that Golbat was town. I did it myself, and pushed my new cases. I posted out 3 completely new cases, and new facts for my 2 previous cases. As far as the small talk with Prom, I agree, it was pointless spam. It DID start out as me using his meta from our previous game to put pressure on him, though. On July 31 2012 04:20 alan133 wrote: Also, I found this: + Show Spoiler + On July 30 2012 16:32 Keirathi wrote: Holy cow. Nice case. This is the the kind of analysis that takes really careful combing through filters and picking up on extremely subtle patterns. I'm eagerly awaiting a response from Ange now. While some may not find this post scummy at all, it fits into my reads on you, that you "did not make a stance", "Wait for other players to talk", and then "push accordingly". I guess you did indeed imply that you agree with Mordanis' case when you say it is a nice case, but these were not very committing stance that can always be dismissed when needed. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I read that case, it was extremely well reasoned and put Ange into a new light that I hadn't noticed, and her (him? i assume her because she didn't correct Mordanis for his constant use of her) response to it was very important to how I would ultimately feel towards her after it. Her response was satisfactory, but not particularly convincing. I haven't had a chance to go back through her filter yet myself and make a final decision, but I'm more wary of her now after Mordanis' case. That's all I meant. On July 31 2012 04:20 alan133 wrote: TL:DR I am not a big fan of Kei's "passive" scum hunt play that allows him to sit back and judge the direction townies headed, while possibly moulding his own stance to get the best out of scum. I would like to see Kei's response. I apologize if it feels like I'm being passive. I just don't agree with committing early. All the cases I've pushed have followed my meta of picking up patterns, but that's because I generally believe I'm much better at that than pressuring people for one silly little thing at a time. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Keirathi wrote: He said he didn't want to post his reads at night, and would wait until today. How could you be so sure you weren't going to die and never get those reads out for people to see? Posting them at the end of the night would have been ideal if you actually are townie. For reference, heres the post I got that from: + Show Spoiler + On July 30 2012 02:18 goodkarma wrote: Just a small update: I've finished reading through all the filters again, and have some new thoughts on who is scum. I have decided to follow the advice posted by alan and postpone discussion of those thoughts until day 2 begins in a few hours here. It seems everyone else is doing the same... I would, however, like to make a few comments on the Golbat debacle. While Golbat certainly is to blame for not sticking up for himself, so is the town for voting him. Very obvious, but one of the bigger issues I have with some people's current scum-hunting tactics is they think that scum just have to present in one or two very particular ways. And I will confess I have been guilty of this too... Things like: Scum are sneaky. They hate to make coherant arguements against players. They love to slip up on statistics that don't really have much bearing on their arguements. They can only sit back and lurk (yeah, I was guilty of this one...). Everyone plays scum a little differently, making finding them not a science but an art form. Looking back at the Golbat lynching, I couldn't help but notice that while he played badly, he did it consistently. There wasn't one "scumslip," or one particular bandwagon he was willing to ride. He was like, "I want to ride every bandwagon that presents any semblance of a case." I mentioned this too in passing, that he was either a bad town (for bandwagoning without thinking) or a bad mafia (for being so out in the open). But he wasn't afraid to change his mind. Repeatedly. And he did stick his neck out in getting behind cases, being only the second person to do so in something like 3 different spots... Mafia could do all these things, but I find it highly unlikely that they would, especially in a newbie game where I figure first-time Mafia would prefer to play more cautiously to avoid being exposed than to jump into the spotlight like that. In retrospec, and I know it doesn't mean much, but looking at how he was consistent in his terrible play and was completely unafraid to change his mind I don't see how he could have been anything but really bad town. I encourage everyone, as they're making their new cases, to not have their "scum check-list." Try to show some empathy and really assess if a town could make the posts your suspect has made. Anyway, my 2 cents. I'll catch up here in a few hours, once day 2 has begun. It doesn't make any sense for a townie to claim that he has reads and not share them before the night ends. If you had died, you never would have gotten to post them, and you would have completely wasted your time and hurt the thread overall. Were you completely unafraid of dying? Also, you said you would post them before the night ended in your previous post + Show Spoiler + On July 29 2012 07:57 goodkarma wrote: With the day passed, and our first flip, I plan on making a rather lengthy analysis thread on top suspects. I promise to have it before night ends, but don't expect to see it for several hours. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 31 2012 14:23 alan133 wrote: When you call for other people to make case, it occurs to me; didn't you disagree with that method of scum hunting that you're avoiding from? Why are you asking for them to post now? I think this is the key thing: I realize the necessity of all those other small points, I just don't like to play like that. What I mean is that while I would love everyone to just post big, solid, well-reasoned cases, I realize that without the small cases and pressure that those big cases would be harder to make. Maybe I need to change my playstyle, but like I"ve said, this is what has worked for me in the past and changing habits is hard. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I will say that his cases in this game, compared to his cases in XIX where he was scum, are 100% better. To use his own terms from the end of XIX: "I liked my pants-on-head retarded connection theories." There is one similarity from XIX and this game that I will mention that I haven't before. In day 1 on XIX, he pushed a case on another townie really hard, and then after day 1 he virtually quit mentioning it for no reason. Or rather, mentioned it a few times but without any real conviction or pressure. It kind of feels like the same thing he's done to Shady in this game. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I may consolidate just to avoid a no-lynch if I have to, but for now: ##Vote goodkarma | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:09 Ange777 wrote: Could you give me your reasoning for this vote? I quickly skimmed through your filter to look for your suspicions against goodkarma and only found the following: - pushing for lurker lynches - not immediately telling us his second scum read - the "in retrospect" thing I feel his posting has improved a lot in comparison to earlier, he did reveal his second scum read later on and well about the "in restrospect" thing, I guess this is just whether you are willing to give him the benefit of doubt. Compared to this I think the case on Promethelax is much more stronger. Is the meta read the only thing that is keeping you from voting him? That's basically it. I still don't think there's a justifiable reason for him interrupting conversations in day 1 to push that we should lynch lurkers. Not posting his scum reads at night is a big red-flag as well. He waited until other people had already made their day2 cases before he posted his. I still think if he had reads before night ended, then the only reason not to post them is if you are unafraid of being NK'd. As far as Promethelax, yea its mostly meta. And honestly its not a strong conviction. I feel like a lot of his play this game has been similar to his play as scum in XIX. But his scum play in XIX was so pro-town, that I'm not sure how a real town Promethelax would actually play. I would assume it couldn't actually be that much different, just in the quality of his cases, and I do think they have improved. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Is it even possible for a RB to block mafia KP? How is mafia KP handled in this game? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:33 Ange777 wrote: In my first game ever I rolled scum and I would have never thought of that possibility. What would they gain by faking a medic? If they aren't forced into claiming early, then as long as they make it to LYLO/MYLO, one of them can claim medic and that he has a "confirmed townie". They only need to get one mislynch at that point, and how many times are you going to lynch a claimed medic when there was a night without a kill? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:44 Ange777 wrote: Ok, good point. Didn't occur to me. However they would have to get to LYLO/MYLO first and how do you do that? By getting rid of as many townies as you can before they get suspicious of you. So risky ... Btw ... Shady, where are you? You popped back to the thread 2,5 hours ago with your promise to post. You're right. It is extremely risky. But you if you get away with it and make it to LYLO/MYLO, you've basically won the game. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:18 Ange777 wrote: Well I would say that disrupting the scum hunt, getting town cred and buddy up with other players is quite a lot of scum motivation. But ok, I see your point. I was too hasty. I can see townie motivation for the second and third point too, though. Not disrupting the scumhunt, but I haven't really seen much of him doing that. The only example that comes to mind immediately is when he and I were discussing XIX, but despite the spam, we kept talking about our reads and opinions as well. Just threw the XIX stuff in at the end. I do apologize again for that, though. We should have waited until after the game. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:22 marvellosity wrote: I am assuming MrMedic is gone for the world, gonna make the call atm that 6 is the number for the lynch (majority from 11) Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:26 Ange777 wrote: But why would buddying up with players be town motivation? There is no way you can know one's alignment for sure until they flip. So by buddying up with someone you are just tying yourself closer to someone whom you don't know if he is town or scum. It really depends on his flip. If he flips medic and he's the one that made the save last night, I can see him trying to buddy up with who he now knows is a townie without having to specifically claim. | ||
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