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For convenience, I'm providing a trimmed down, lightweight, and easy to read version of my case against Calgar in case anyone else decides not to go through the full thing.
On July 16 2012 08:54 calgar wrote:
The town benefits from clarity, transparency, and direction, so I’ll try my best to encompass these into my posts. Please call me out, for whatever reason, if you notice that this isn’t the case.
Clarity, transparency and direction. Keep these three things he wishes to provide in mind when reading his posts.
1: Early play: he plays the noob card subtly, and comments about having no meta. He also says, essentially, that scum are probably too smart to make big, visible, blatant mistakes. This is shortly followed by the "Wait and see" line of posting, where his defense boils down to "I swear I'm not scum, so you must just be illogical."
2: Second part of day 1: He jumps on the tube wagon, shifts votes everywhere, and "me-too"s onto myself and Hapa incessantly. Calls for votes on perfection, but doesn't vote for perfection himself until Hapa does. He has his vote on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest scum read quite often.
3: Night 1: He calls for a vigi hit on perfection, until Hapa agrees it's too early, then backs off. Still playing "me-too", and easily shifting his self-assuredness.
3: D2: Dismisses my huge case against him as being too long to bother with, and accuses me of digging too deep for subtlety, even though early in D1 he said that blatant scum tells were probably just clumsy town play. Uses a combination of ad hominem attacks and witty remarks about my rhetoric to gloss over having no response to the actual case against him.
Again, this is just the condensed part, independent of my possible follow-on suspicion against Hapa. That will only gain credence if Calgar flips scum based on the evidence against him. Please go back and read the un-summarized version for supporting quotes and additional shady behavior.
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On July 20 2012 02:00 YourHarry wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:33 JingleHell wrote:
I personally will be doing this:
##Vote Calgar
Until and unless Calgar stops trying to dismiss my case against him as "too long" (too much evidence, lolwut?) and actually responds to it. And I already outlined my suspicion that calgar is scum. So, if I am right, then above post also makes JingleHell not because he is simply bussing calgar, but because he is leaving room for him to change his mind if calgar comes back to defend himself. In addition, I have to go check to read the post Jingle's "breadcrumb" post, but if other people's narrations of what happened is correct, Calgar was the one player who "deciphered" Jingle's breadcrumb. This also is consistent with calgar & JingleHell scum team, who have QT.
Actually, I've been consistently using that wording when trying to get someone to respond. I wasn't planning to vote this early off of mostly my own case, but since he was refusing to defend himself, I was hoping to pressure him to do exactly that. I also don't plan to shift my vote off him unless there's overwhelming reason to do so. Track my suspicions on him, and if he flips red, revisit this theory.
Unless we're going to go back to the silly sacrificial lamb strategy that I think nobody has any respect for, or interest in (who wants to win by not playing?), I don't think me going for Calgar's throat will still look scummy later.
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I think there's plenty of WIFOM ways to keep me from being confirmed at this point. I'll be the first to admit that it could easily look like a fakeclaim, since we don't know what effect my jail had.
However, if I get NKed and flip blue, it adds a lot of weight to my case.
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On July 20 2012 05:43 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 01:53 Hopeless1der wrote:
I want to see calgar's conviction to stay alive here. Let's see you either convince Jingle of your innocence or iamperfection's scumminess. OTHERWISE I'M VOTING FOR CALGAR. Seriously, I plan to sheep Jingle today regarding the decision on voting for calgar. If Jingle removes his vote, I'll learn to think for myself again. There is too much suspicious dialogue between Jingle, Hapa and calgar for me to make a good read, and I believe Jingle's breadcrumb, so he's the one I'm going to follow. You aren't going to decide for yourself who to lynch D2? This is what the game is all about, it's the crux; why are you playing? Let's put all the complicated theories aside for a second. Have I managed to help the town at all with any of my actions. Has iamperfection helped the town with any of his actions? Who would you lynch of the two if one has and one hasn't?
What are we calling helping the town? What have you done that's demonstrably pro-town, and not just pro-you? Have you confirmed a townie? Been confirmed townie? Made a solid case? Defended yourself against a case? Hell, you complained about me having "too much" against you, and then ignored the concise, summarized version. If my case is as weak as you say, you should be able to put it to bed easily, which would be more pro-town than ignoring it for being too much.
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If the facts were on your side, you'd not need to worry nearly as much about a "skillful" defense. You'd just have to present reasonable answers to the accusations. Instead, you've responded with petty jabs at word choice, insults, and finger pointing. Attempts to incite an emotional response against my case in other people. That's scum behavior.
It's one thing to defend against a case that's based in OMGUS or a logical fallacy that way, but when it's a mountain of your posts straight up not fitting when taken in the context of the thread as a whole at the time, you need to be able to respond to them. You overtly refuse to, aside from attempts to look witty. Is it any surprise other people are getting onboard?
If the case is actually compelling in and of itself, you should present a compelling defense. You can only afford to ignore a case when it's weak enough that nobody sees anything in it.
It's not like Hapa's attacks on my case were any better than yours, they boiled down to the same range of trying to discredit me and ignore the case itself.
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You're still using ad homs and invoking emotion as a response to me. You've started to sort of mention the things I brought up, but not properly. You're accusing me of taking you out of context, yet I'm not. I'm taking you in context of the thread as a whole, at the times of posts.
Your original vote on perfection has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you then jumped from one "strong read" to another, with your votes frequently being directly contradictory to your "strongest read", up until you got Hapa to shift a vote, at which point you finally voted for perfection.
Let's face it. You spend more time in your response here asserting that "Since I'm town - WIFOM". That's not an explanation for scummy behavior, that's asserting that people should trust you because you say so.
You keep pointing fingers back to Obvious to make my case against you look weaker, but you're ignoring that the case against him was a result of his own actions. Was I a major factor in the case? Yes. Do I regret the needless loss of a town vote? Absolutely. Does that make it my fault that he appeared scummy? No. His posts were his downfall, not mine. Your posts are what have me breathing down your neck, and even while putting up this facade of a response, you continue in your need for personal attacks.
You didn't exactly make the post saying you'd been in multiple games elsewhere until Hapa called you out on subtly playing the noob card. A reaction doesn't change the post itself.
Overall, you're starting to do a credible job of explaining yourself. I can at least accept your explanation for most of the "me-too" attitude, although I do find it foolish to have a strong town read that early in D1. I'm not exactly at the point of no return here, I just want answers, which you've withheld, while acting like it would be some sort of waste to respond, even when it's anything but. If I can stop arguing with Hapa outside of case arguments, surely you'd be able to believe I'd be able to back off on a case I'm actually persuaded is bad.
Hell, the Obvious case, IIRC, you said you saw where I was coming from, but didn't draw the same conclusions. That's a far cry from how you're treating it now, trying to weaponize it against me.
You know what, just for giggles, I'll even give benefit of the doubt on the vigi hit thing, since the numbers at least seem like a reasonable assessment, and it comes down to a gut feeling on whether it's just too damn easy of a target.
The breadcrumb and hapa thing, of course, is purely circumstantial and WIFOM, and only applicable if you flip scum, so it doesn't need to be part of your defense, really.
So, if you can just explain the scummy behavior in your responses to me, and finish with the shortcomings I've already outlined, I'll move on to someone else happily.
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Wait, actually, the numbers on the vigi kill are both from the perspective of him being scum. You say if he flipped town, e see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2
I can assume that's a brain fart, but it would be 6:3 going into today, had vigi hit him and he was town. I still kinda see the reasoning, but based off of too little evidence like I said.
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Ok, I'm not sure how I've offended you, unless it's by not trusting anyone without reason? This is a cutthroat game. My response about not stooping to your level was directly the result of this post.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2012 09:03 calgar wrote:alright Jingle. you’re a bull in the china shop; an elephant tip-toeing over the piano Keys. i knew; what can i say – you’re like arguing with a brick wall. Your case is weak right now but I’ll grant you a reply. Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 07:57 JingleHell wrote: If Perfection is scum, the calling for a vigi hit was an attempt to earn calgar town credit, and if Perfection is town, he's an easy sell for a mislynch. Wait, what? If he is mafia, then you’re suggesting that I’m mafia and I voted to kill another mafia, to boost my town cred, when you are saying to leave the mafia alive for more questioning? Doesn’t that mean I am currently pushing for a mafia player to get killed, while you are arguing to leave him alive? Explain to me how that makes ANY sense. If he is town, we’ll never really be able to know – see my thoughts on him and why an invest isn’t very useful. Show nested quote +Regardless, Calgar's late in the day effort to "Save" obvious once it became clear saving him would be difficult looks like an effort at town cred. It's heavy WIFOM, but it was a mediocre effort, and too little too late. Certainly not enough to make him look clean to me. You argued to kill a town member, I argued to save him. How does this ‘mediocre’ effort by a vote you caused with a POOR READ reflect guilt on my part? It was clear to me by inactivity and lack of conversation that people were going to stick their vote and not listen. I don’t understand how trying to save the townie made me look more guilty. If hopeless and one vote had swung over, iamperfection could have gotten 5 votes first. Show nested quote +Furthermore, he jumps votes like it's going out of style, and despite pushing his side bandwagon on perfection late D1, he didn't change his vote until he got Hapa onboard with it. Check the timing in the filter. Despite his seeming desperation to "save" obvious by pushing perfection, Calgar left his vote on YourHarry until AFTER Hapa changed votes. What? I jump votes like it’s going out of style to SAVE A TOWN MEMBER. How has this escaped your notice? You have some master vision of my theory crafting and play in order to build credit. Don’t you think these pro-town actions might have a simpler expalantion? I didn’t change my vote until after hapa because I was being resourceful to pool votes to wherever they could go. I thought YourHarry or iamperfection were better D1 lynches so I would have voted either to save obvious. I switched because we got a third onto iamperfection and it looked plausible that we might swing it over. Show nested quote +Go back to the very beginning of D1, he was pointing to his lack of history to analyze, and hoping to cast doubts on the various methods people can use to spot scum. He was actively spreading the seeds of doubt for any analysis that could be directed his way. Your language is much more cloudy and less straightforward than mine. WTF do you mean with “seeds of doubt”. Why are you speaking like you’re a poet? Your previous argument was based on suspicious words like “under the bus”. Where did that get you? Show nested quote +This second one casts huge WIFOM type doubts around, he can point to it later as needed. "See guys, I even said back then we should avoid watching this stuff". I’ve voluntarily chosen to be in the spotlight. This is a bad play for mafia – it’s even in the advice guide. Sooner or later you can’t keep up your town cred by making pro town votes (like trying to save a myslynch from you). WIFOM, whatever. Show nested quote +Also, Calgar was, at first, one of the people calling me scummy for saying we don't have sufficient info for a vigi kill to feel really safe. When Hapa agreed, I'm suddenly not on Calgar's scumlist in his recent post? Again, "me-too"-ing on Hapa. I’ve never called you scummy. You’ve never been on my scumlist. I read you as strongly town. I’ve said so before, check my filter. I called you out there because your reasoning was stupid. You won’t agree because you are stubborn. That’s just what we have to deal with in a thread that includes you. I'll let it slide because sometimes townies don't always make the best calls (obvious). Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:42 JingleHell wrote:
And frankly, I don't expect Obvious to be a mislynch. I would imagine you don't think I'll be a mislynch, either? @YourHarryCare to respond to anything? Nice OMGUS also. You were joking about defending me earlier. Asking people to claim? There's #12 on my list. "I do not want to disclose that right now." --> anti-town play. #13
Can you not see where that's an entirely different type of game than I was trying to play? Quite a few rude comments in there for just getting called out for things I saw as shady. I have no qualms responding rudely to someone who tries to make a "case" against me via ad homs, or someone I dislike (as we've seen) but I try to keep my cases off this level of play, because it just turns into a clusterfuck for all involved. See D2 of XVIII where I was scum and a response like this from a townie turned what was supposed to be "Hey look I'm visible" pressure into an OMGUS "Someone dies" scenario. So I strongly avoid getting dragged down into that kind of argument where real cases are concerned, they're an utter debacle.
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On July 20 2012 08:45 YourHarry wrote:Jingle, is this your the breadcrumb post? BREADCRUMB What exactly was your purpose of breadcrumbing at that point?
I've already explained this. However, the specific value depends on a few factors, also available in the explanation. I think it was discussed 8-9 hours ago.
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For the time being, I'm sufficiently satisfied with Calgar to shift my vote to Perfection. Should that work out as a green flip, Calgar will be included in my reevaluation, but for now he's explained himself sufficiently to see how his read on perfection comes up.
##Unvote
##Vote iamperfection
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Sudden potential WIFOM realization on why Evul died. What if someone spotted the first half of the breadcrumb and thought I was saying Jail EvulRabbitz, so they decided to kill him to rolehunt?
Would be pretty epic if NK ended up being so pro-town because of that, and would kinda nuke the ever-living hell out of my WIFOM case involving a Hapa/Calgar scumteam.
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He already answered you, Harry. And Mufaa. It's worse than that, he's tried to get people to roleclaim TWICE now.
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On July 20 2012 09:21 YourHarry wrote:
calgar, after realizing the breadcrumb, were you every suspicious of Jingle for being scum?
also could you provide the link to your breadcrumb, where you communicated to Jingle that you read his?
Jingle, did you notice calgar's breadcrumb immediately?
Apologies if these have been already discussed.
Not reading the thread completely, twice now you've tried to get people to claim blue roles, along with everything else you've had commented on already... You're looking better and better.
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So who else is starting to wonder wtf is up with harry's motives?
He's been content to sit back and watch for the most part, only chipping in a little as long as things were moving, but when misunderstandings smooth over, he goes back to machine gun posts, half of which can't even be WIFOM'd into something pro town...
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On July 20 2012 09:28 YourHarry wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 09:27 JingleHell wrote:
So who else is starting to wonder wtf is up with harry's motives?
He's been content to sit back and watch for the most part, only chipping in a little as long as things were moving, but when misunderstandings smooth over, he goes back to machine gun posts, half of which can't even be WIFOM'd into something pro town... I am just trying to gather more and more evidence why you and calgar are scums 
You know what, at potential risk of sounding like an OMGUS,
##Unvote
##Vote YourHarry
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If anyone wants me to compile a list of why I'm switching to a vote on YourHarry, the full list of reasons can be seen here, if you have the willpower to read it.
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Oops. That link was to my filter. My bad. Meant to link to Harry's filter. Would have been funny. Anyways, yeah, let me know if you want me to actually compile a point by point case, but it may require about ten pages of cross-referencing.
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If you've got so much evidence against me and Calgar, try presenting it instead of dropping hints in hopes that someone else will do your dirty work? Let's face it, you're just mad that me and Calgar didn't get each other lynched.
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No, I didn't. Were you planning on presenting a case, or just trying to instigate chaos by dropping hints subtle enough to fall out of a stealth bomber?
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Anyone else expecting some grandiose epic thriller that makes the craziest WIFOM anyone else (like me) has used so far look mundane?
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EPT
