EPTI will not be replaced
I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia
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s0Lstice
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I will not be replaced | ||
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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hi sciberbia! | ||
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s0Lstice
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One thing, the vigi role pm says you have 'X bullets.' | ||
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s0Lstice
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lots of familiar faces for me in this game, which is a bonus. I think I've played with most of the people here, and I've read a game Keirathi was in. let's kill scum. | ||
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s0Lstice
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were you scum in VIII? | ||
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anyway, in the other games I've played with sciberbia, he has had a post prepared as soon as the daypost hit the presses. it usually contains his thoughts on the typical day 1 fodder etc. needless to say he has never played scum. I'm wondering where he is.. | ||
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s0Lstice
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PMs are not allowed in this game. from the OP.. | ||
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As far as the names you listed, I wouldn't want to kill any of them right now. Austin has easy town meta, I feel confident I can recognize it. Mattchew, Risen, and s&b are just blank pages. I am nervous however of Risen making a conscious effort to change his play-style. I read him right in SSB64 but just barely. | ||
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s0Lstice
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right now I'd want to hear from Vivax, mainly. my dear Vivax, what do you think of the people gonzaw posted about? do you find it scummy that they appeared excited to post, yet didn't say much past their intro? | ||
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s0Lstice
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why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? | ||
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s0Lstice
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what do you make of these: On July 12 2012 07:32 gonzaw wrote: Yo whats up dudes. I forgot how many scum there were, where they 4? Anyways, first things first: Millers Claim! Masons Claim! Nobody discuss this, nobody argue this, nobody contradict this. It's been discussed to death in every single game before this one so if you want to see reasons why those 2 should happen reread those games/guides/post-game analysis, don't clutter this thread up saying "oh no Millers shouldn't claim because the cop will get a red check!" or some bullshit. Was that clear? On July 12 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote: If we try to create scenarios WIFOM-proof we'll waste lots of resources and time, and most of the time it's not even that useful (protecting a claimed Town RBer isn't a "game-breaking plan for town to win", yet it takes away the JK's ability to save someone at night). So yeah let's keep it simple....at least until we find a better plan  Also, cool this game has PMs/Chat/stuff. If someone has Skype contact me, I'm gonzaw308 Or use the mafia chat thingy He scores townie points with me here. How about you? | ||
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s0Lstice
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his question about how many scum there are read to me as a mini-gambit. Since it is variable, only scum are going to know the exact number. the second post is him being excited about the ability to use PMs. maybe gonzaw is clever, but is he ballsy? because it's pretty ballsy as scum to be pro-active about getting a PM circle going, especially considering how young the game was at the time. | ||
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s0Lstice
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what Marv said about his play in Liar though was news to me. I'll have to have a look-see. | ||
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s0Lstice
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so Marv...you are correct that I asked a lot of questions but didn't provide any answers of my own. I wanted to get people talking about something/anything. There was fuck all else going on in the thread at the time. I was active the evening of the daypost, and then a little bit this morning at work. The topic of conversation when I dropped in at work was gonzaw. You were pursuing him, and I wanted to know how you felt about a few things that looked town to me. In regards to those two things...in you're view I'm wrong to read them that way. That doesn't make me scum, it makes me wrong. Basically, nothing really was spiking my scumdar in the material that I had available when I was active. There were a few things that piqued my interest, and I worked off those. My thoughts can be inferred from the questions. I'm a little confused as to how you couldn't see that. -sciberbia is immediately not matching his town meta. I find this suspicious, so I point it out. -keirathi's most lengthy post is on a safe zone topic. I want him to know I noticed that, and apply a little pressure. I also want an early connection between him and talis (I had trouble reading talis last game, and I don't want to repeat the mistake. -vivax has thrown his vote around like a boomerang. I want him to focus, and to draw some early links between him and the people gonzaw accused. So hopefully that makes it a little clearer for you. As to who I want to lynch today and why... Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again. Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads. I feel better about lynching Miltonkram today, and as such: ##vote: Miltonkram Now talis, you asked about austin. Right now he is looking a lot like he did in his town games. There are no scum games for me to look at, so the meta argument only goes so far. He makes long posts with a lot of stuff that amounts mainly to filler, but he also plants a few nuggets of really good reasoning. This game his effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. | ||
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On July 13 2012 20:10 Miltonkram wrote: s0Lstice- When you've got no other reads just sheep the vets, amirite? Not really sure where this petulance is coming from, but it's unlike you. What's more, you're wrong. Gonzaw has come the closest to really accusing you, but he has since backed off. Other than that, there is Vivax, who is not a vet. More, you want me dead now after Marv posted his case. Before that, nothing on me. So who is sheeping now? Lastly, I was asked to say why I found austin to be town. Part of that is meta, so I said so. It's not the same as what you did. You are asking us to kill talismania, your top scum read, when you haven't done due diligence on your own case by looking at his past games. Having played with him and having done this myself, I know that his past games would give you some insight on the criteria with which you are finding him scummy right now. This would be fine if you aren't a big meta guy, but your use of it in regards to other people says otherwise. It makes me feel like your case is phony/an attempt to blend in, as I said. ------------------------------------------- Marv, I still want to know what you think of Milton. After that you can get back to killing me otay? | ||
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s0Lstice
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there are two conflicting ideas that I had some difficulty assignment weight to -Risen is genuinely trying to improve his town play, and will deviate from his meta as a result -Risen is matching a few key things in his scum meta His desire to change his playstyle did seem genuine, especially in the post-game of SSB. I ended up assigning more weight to the second idea though because I believe it is very difficult to escape one's meta, as it is something that largely stems from the subconscious. However, the difficulty involved in ending up where I did was enough to make me want to pursue Milton primarily. | ||
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Marv, in regards to gonzaw, I've been reading through Liar game, and I wanted to share a few things I've noticed. You are first of all right about his activity level being alignment null. That was obvious. Others though I think are pretty telling -he was very cautious about calling someone town -he tunneled the shit out of Cephiro -he cast suspicion on a handful of people for various reasons, often because of bad play, but it was never to the detriment of his focus on Cephiro. In this game -he very early on was making town-reads while he hunted scum, and was public about it -he has not tunneled anyone, but rather cast a wide net to see what sticks. I'd even call it lack of focus, which is generally a town trait. -he has been factoring in new information and adjusting his reads It's a hell of a lot of reading, and I'm not quite done yet, but wanted to get this out there. What I found so far makes me think he isn't scum. | ||
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I'm happy with this direction right now though. As I said I think Risen has a decent chance at flipping scum. ##unvote ##vote Risen | ||
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On July 13 2012 21:51 Vivax wrote: Ok Milton, your defense is quite good. I suspected you for going with towns' sentiment regarding talis and getting an easy lynch target, and to be honest I still feel that the arguments against him aren't very strong. He's in a bad corner cause of his proposition, in page 2 of his filter he stopped talking about the plan, then started calling out people before he got forced into a defensive position again. + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote: Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. If there is something I detest, is when someone gets accused for defending himself, like you did, Milton. Defending yourself is playing to win, from each alignments perspective. It's only logical that a guy who has to counter endless arguments can't be actively scumhunting, but Talis posted his reads already on page 1 before people started accusing him so heavily: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice I sure see the effort to post reads and clear stances here. The responses to his plan have quite some potential. Cause I think your arguments made against talis are inflated and not good, I can't believe you to be town yet. In fact, I may not be able to debunk your case against talis, but I still have an overall bad impression of you, Milton. Another thing in your disfavor: Your defense from s0lstices points is actually an attack. You don't seem to have pushed back his arguments regarding you, you rather tried to discredit him for inconsistence regarding meta, that's a pretty OMGUS/scummy type of defense imo. I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions. Also Vivax, I'd like you to talk about this some. You start out by (I assume) clearing Milton of suspicion. Suspected is past tense. Then you go on about how bad Milton's case was against Talis, add another point against him in how he attacked me after being accused. You conclude in the middle that you can't say he's town yet, but you have a bad impression of him. This meandering is strange. You cleared him at the start of the post, and then tip-toe back to near where you were before on him. | ||
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austin- in regards to vivax, despite some stuff I found strange (he never answered my questions), I still think he is town at the moment. I should have left awhile ago. I wont be able to check the thread until this evening. If I'm alive, then I'll finally get some quality time with the filters. If I'm dead, then gg all and good luck town! | ||
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s0Lstice
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I spent 4 hours last night in the wee hours of the morning reading filters. I ended up with a lot of town reads and not much else, it was really frustrating. Day 1 in general was pretty frustrating, I think for all of us. I'm here now and it's past time I gave the content I promised. I'll be reading and writing over the next 4-5 hours and will post following that. | ||
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I don't like early stuff he posted on Marv, like at all. It was a lot of garbage to say one simple thing: Marv is dangerous as scum, so I will be watching. What is the purpose of all this...saying it in the first place and all the back and forth? If you are really worried about a player being scum with no evidence to go off of, why the heck would you announce to the thread that you are paying this person special attention? Just keep it to yourself and do it, and reap the potential rewards. It's mainly because of this though: On July 14 2012 04:50 strongandbig wrote: i was leaning townie on risen because of his trolovote on vivek, it seemed town - but now that i reread his filter there are a few things that give me pause. specifically, his "i hunt for whole scum teams" thing is pretty turr'ble - he says "it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team", which seems to be missing the point of scumhunting as a townie. i think a townie would be talking about "easy to find scum" not "easy to make cases". i also dont like how focused he is on defending himself by making a case on someone else instead of actually answering the cases against him. that said, I don't think that his inactivity makes him scummy, since he could just have lurked if he was lurky scum instead of promising future activity. He was just in a game with risen where he flipped town, and exhibited the exact same behaviors he is finding scummy here. I know that he knows that Risen likes to throw out whole scumteams as town, and rely on connections between scum teammates. Finding him suspicious for those reasons this game makes me think he is scum. austinmcc: I'm changing my mind. Honestly, this: On July 14 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Seriously? Strongest read: vivax (but apparently he's allllways scummy to austin), but imma vote s0Lstice. They don't write sitcoms this good, folks. So yea, like Risen, I don't like how I garner the vote instead of Vivax or Risen. I don't like how he said he would consolidate on Risen, when his reasoning for going back from town read to scum read is his transition from inactivity to 5 scum reads and an alternate. I don't like this because I know he has looked at town games where Risen has shown exactly this same behavior as town. Have a look: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 06:04 austinmcc wrote: Milton's post is fluffy but as people keep noting every time he comes up, he said he'd be gone for 12-24 hours before the game started: No read on him yet. Here were my earlier thoughts on Risen: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. Hasn't really been activity since then, so my read is roughly the same. I don't like that a lot of his filter is about how he's going to play this game, with the rest being non-reads and his statement that he doesn't like to make reads early. I still don't know what to make of the statement about not liking to make reads early. It doesn't fully correspond with past games. I said I'd go back and look, and I did. SSB:+ Show Spoiler + On July 03 2012 04:26 Risen wrote: How can you be agreeing with this? iGrok you've hosted this before I feel like your giant cred post at the very beginning was an attempt to make everyone confirm you as town right off the bat, but as someone coming in late to the party I think your behavior is very scummy and I don't think someone who knew how this game worked would suggest your plan. We should be minimizing town stock loss. What do you mean "if the scum don't follow us it's clear who they are". Yeah no shit, this plan works out perfect for them why wouldn't "they" follow it. The more I think about it the more I KNOW you wouldn't post some stupid idea like this as town. Add to this your removal of two people from the item position list? What the heck man. All you've done by removing two people from the item list is make it so mafia has a better chance of getting an item. Want to minimize mafia chance of item while maximizing town chance so we're not double stacking? Then have us go down the list in numerical order and say that's left, bottom left, center, etc. Same for left, center, right on the position discussion. I'm going to be voting iGrok for lynch at this point. On July 03 2012 07:02 Risen wrote: Don't post in big caps. I was wrong on that, cool. Fact remains we have a smaller buffer. No need to shout. I'm almost 100% iGrok is scum. He doesn't get heated like this usually. Within the first day of SSB, he's decided two players are scum. However, his Cephiro read DOES match up with what he said this game, that he likes connection cases, because he finds Cephiro scummy based on his finding iGrok scummy Area 53: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote: I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time. I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim. Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess. I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel. ##vote marvellosity On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote: Risen was scum this game, threw around a good number of votes in thread but not as many actual reads as above. Again, focused heavily on connections like who was voting for VE or who found him scummy after the "Risen is scum" idea was proposedWhat kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. On to your little bullets. 1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. I'll sum this case for all you dolts voting on me. Risen isn't playing like his town play usually is (but lets not link any of Risen's filters and quote anything from previous games, lets just SAY that's how it is and pray people don't actually check his filters.) Wow. Slam dunk case Paq, glad I took the time to respond to it. Why are you on me again? I don't have much time, I'm driving back to Flagstaff very shortly. I'm going to cut all this nonsense short and post cases against every person on VE. They're all idiots and/or scum who should be killed. GoT:+ Show Spoiler + On March 23 2012 06:01 Risen wrote: Everything about this post screams emotional overreaction to being voted with something that is clearly not a serious vote. For reasons I can't put my finger on, I get the feeling from this post that Acro is either horrible, horrible town, or trying to just talk with mattchew so they can generate discussion that looks pro-town. Makes me feel like Acro and mattchew are both scum. More proof of my earlier feeling. Even more... Entire post is about how he wants to lynch Mattchew... but the last line is telling. He's clearly giving himself an out for when he decides miraculously not to vote mattchew because "someone more scummy" has come along. A legitimate post calling out a lurker. My feeling: [r]scum[/r] He's the most scummy read I have thus far. On March 23 2012 06:04 Risen wrote: Most of my problems with Mattchew have been summed up in my post on acro. He's either town who is seriously focusing on one guy who other people find suspicious (why should he spend so much time refuting what this guy is saying), or he's scum and coasting by arguing with another mafia guy. Neutral read for now. Scumread on Acro, although a good ways into D1. Finds Mattchew possibly scummy based on his interactions with Acro. I stopped at that point, although there's a little more GoT D1 and LI. But he DOES look like he makes a lot of his reads, even D1, off of connections. The game in which he was most active with voting, he was scum. For now I still find his filter this game odd, because it's quite a few posts to not have reads, but past games make me less uneasy about his statement that he doesn't like to scumhunt early, it's not just making an excuse to coast for a day or two this time around. Right now I'm leaning town on him, because of his response at the end of SSB64. In the scum QT there, Acro and Cephiro talk about how to deal with him, and note that "if he learned to control his rage and angst i think he'd be a really good player." So for now, I think that while his filter seems off, it's off because he's trying to actually do that. I think that also addresses some of your worries here because the kind attitude and posting style are perhaps an adjustment from the norm. Oh, I've been ninjaed by your other post. I'll respond to that shortly. I don't like how his posts feel. They are always long, but I generally find a few nuggets of really useful and solid logic in them. I'm not seeing that from him this game. I don't like his early attack on Talismania. We are here to lynch scum, and his huge discourse basically came to the conclusion that the plan was anti-town/unhelpful. I don't see the explanation for the jump from that conclusion to scum....and it's needed. There is town motivation for Talis doing what he did, so not liking the plan should not be enough to garner a vote. | ||
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In response to your defense....it was MTG and SSB. You've seen it twice. I find it hard to believe that you don't remember seeing that from him. In regards to your original third point on Risen, the exact same is true. He OMGUS' all the time as town, and you've seen it before. That leaves only your second point, which is basically semantics. It's really weak. This case is what manufactured cases look like. More, you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing Risen of. You OMGUS me in your defense for manufacturing a case against you. I mean I guess it's possible you really don't remember, but I find myself doubting it. I hope I also answered your two questions in your defense post. In regards to your stuff on Marv...I understand your reasons for wanting to watch him closely. I agree that he is hard to catch as scum. Why did you announce it to the thread? Why not just do it instead of making this huge bombastic post with set-up speculation and hyperbole? You filled a looooot of space to say 1 thing: Marv is good at scum, hosts like good scum, watch him. Also: On July 15 2012 19:55 strongandbig wrote: Since I didn't think that any scumteam of non-marv people here would be able to successfully push a mislynch onto him, making him look as bad as possible was a win/win for town. Why, oh why, would taking the risk at demoralizing a town Marv be a win/win? Do the potential benefits of weakening him early as scum outweigh the risk of dragging an extremely solid town player through the mud? I say emphatically, no. Also I have another question for you: what was the deal with the day 1 Vivax vote? You posted one line on him leading up to deadline: On July 14 2012 04:50 strongandbig wrote: im also leaning scum on vivek because of how he kept backing off of someone as soon as they defended themselves a little bit. Vivax wasn't in your 'people i'd consolidate on' list prior to this post, and all of sudden he is garnering your vote because he is backing off people after they defend themselves? More, there was a counter-movement on Dropbear, Marv was calling for austin to get lynched, and I was in danger myself if someone had taken to pushing me a little harder. These people were all potential candidates that, from your filter, you had more going on than that 1 line from Vivax. You going with Vivax really puzzles me. It just seems like you didn't care since you know all the target's alignments already. I dunno man, I get a pretty bad feeling from your filter. I see a lot of logic stretches, inaccuracies, and indecisiveness. Miltonkram, In response to your suspicions on me: 100% correct. I haven't been anywhere near my town meta. There are a number of pretty valid reasons for this that I'm sure you don't care about. Short version is that I've been traveling all weekend with a sick baby, and when I made time late at night to get in the thread it was everything I could do to stay awake. All I can do is do better, so keep watching. Also I want you to know that I'm not reading you as scum at the moment. Dropbear There is nothing I can really say for when I posted. I posted when I had time, and there was usually something to defend against when I did. On being absent for the lynch, I said I had to hit the road. I was gone maybe 2 hours before the deadline? Something close to that. I knew that I'd miss out on any late switches. By the time I left, there was steam on a Risen lynch, who was one of my two day 1 targets. That's why my vote was there. I can't help that you think I purposely went afk for the lynch, and in your shoes I might be thinking the same thing. I'll tell you the same thing I told Milton, keep watching me. If I can't fix my shit before I'm mis-lynched then I'll deserve it. | ||
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OMGUS On July 04 2012 05:47 Risen wrote: EBWOP: What am I thinking? I'll lynch tali. Just realized he has me down as being slightly scummy for no reason. ##unvote ##vote: talismania OMGUS of the best kind. scum teams/connections On July 04 2012 07:29 Risen wrote: I think it's safe to assume that scum was on both sides. Tali/grush scum team imo On July 05 2012 20:37 Risen wrote: Food for thought in the thread: bus cephiro and risen. Shoot cephiro. Dedede says: Hey guys look at my breadcrumb! Meanwhile in mafia chat: omg we got lucky and grush shot cephiro too! Scum team: dedede and cephiro. Any flaws in that logic? I like it, because it gives cephiro benefit of the doubt on not being horrible. Only problem is I really liked dedede. His name is so good :/ | ||
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I see the case on Talis too, from sciberbia and matt. I've read both, and I think they are pretty good. I misread Talis badly in SSB so I want to look a little more into this. Once I'm through his filter I'll post my thoughts. | ||
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-'cases' instead scum read -'omgus when he defends himself -connections/entire scum team reads correct? | ||
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those two things are 1 and 2 on my list. im working nights this week so im off to bed. Will read and post from work. | ||
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Gonzaw, I read your posts about s&b from both perspectives, read sciberbia's and austin's thoughts on him. Before I had to cut out yesterday I starting doubting my read mainly because of how he was dealing with the whole mattchew issue. I agreed with him 100%. The points you made in his favor gonzaw...pointing out town motivation for a lot of the stuff he has been doing are, I now believe, the correct way to look at it. I went and looked at MTG, which I hadn't before, and I went away feeling like he is playing similarly here. I think also that you two just rub eachother the wrong way. If that is genuine, which I think it is, then his back and forth with you is just emotion, and isn't alignment indicative. Something else I forgot...in SSB he was a hydra with HiroPro, and was much busier at the beginning of the game. Risen died fairly early, so I can see how he may not have noticed. What's more, I have an updated read on Risen, which I will talk about in a bit. I happen to agree with s&b's suspicions, but for different reasons. To sum up, I am back to neutral/leaning town. s&b, I'd still like you to address the portion of my case dealing with your vote on Vivax day 1. Can you explain your thoughts there? ___________________________ Now on the cases on Talismania... I took a pretty hard look at his filter and the cases, and I support lynching him today This post sealed the deal for me. On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice This is so, so scummy looking. I hope to god this isn't a repeat of SSB, but I seriously can't ignore this post. I also agree strongly with Mattchew's point about Talis' case on Dropbear looking contrived/manufactured. I agree strongly with sciberbia's point about Talis' treatment of Vivax. ______________________________ I very badly want to kill Risen On July 14 2012 07:07 Risen wrote: You think you'll feel bad? I'm probably going to die if Viv flips town to a vig shot.... On July 14 2012 07:22 Risen wrote: Well... fuck. No way... Vivax you seriously, seriously need to read the how to be town threads and fix your posting. On July 14 2012 07:23 Risen wrote: Also, every single read I had in this game centered on Vivax being scum. So now I don't have any reads, I'm hungover, I'm tired, I have to do laundry... Today has been a bad day. I'm so demoralized I don't even want to play anymore  On July 16 2012 04:40 Risen wrote: I'm super sad I supported mattchew as town earlier. He's been playing pretty much just like he did as scum in his last game with me, that is, being hella lurky and trying to fly under the radar. Also, I don't know how to feel about the tali or DropBear case. Marv is confirmed towny and he really disliked tali (I think, maybe it was DB but I remember it being tali I just woke up and will go through the filters). I literally have nothing so I might just end up going with what marv wanted. I'm so unconfident in myself now it's kind of funny rofl (as opposed to my usualy self). I still don't like the people who defended vivax strongly, though. I just can't wrap my head around him being a townie... I'm bad, and I should feel bad :< On July 16 2012 04:44 Risen wrote: Going to lunch with my mentee, going to the store, then I'll be back. I'll go through and rebuild everything with Viv as a townie in mind (still... STILL hurts me on the inside that he was town and I could be so wrong. I have never felt so certain of someone being scum) These posts are scummy as shit. The amount of guilt he professes to be feeling is waaaaay out of proportion. He keeps harping on it because he is extra sensitive to the fact that he just lead a mislynch as scum. He can't help but address it over and over, even though nobody is really putting the skids to him that hard. This is textbook scum auto-guilt. His play-by-play leading up the lynch was pretty scummy too. As I said earlier, I don't think anyone on the town side was feeling anything but anxiety during the day 1 lynch. Also, he didn't try hard to push people on to Vivax, when votes on Dropbear were making it a pretty close race. He was just content to comment boisterously about the action. His emotion/behavior here match up pretty well with a scummer seeing two townies being up for lynch. These two things are more than enough for me to want to kill him. I'm cool with killing Talis today, but I want Risen to be next. ##vote talismania | ||
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sciberbia I want to know what you think of Risen as well | ||
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Do you think Talis may be town? | ||
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On July 17 2012 03:27 Miltonkram wrote: Regarding the case on talismania, I'm really uncomfortable about it. There's a lot in his filter that I find strange such as his obsession with his D1 plan and his subpar case-making. The thing that gives me pause is the fact that he continued commenting on his plan despite getting a ton of shit for it. I realize this is completely different from what I was saying earlier, but the fact that he followed his plan through to completion, whether or not it was a good plan in other people's eyes, gives me the impression that he thought it was a good plan. His D1 plan counts as a townie point in my book. This is a really good point. I need to revisit this. | ||
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On July 17 2012 03:34 sciberbia wrote: @miltonkram If you recall, I correctly read vivax as townie in XV. Like marv said on D1, vivax actually seemed a bit calm this game compared to what I remembered of him. I compared the filters from XV, this game, and one game where he was scum in between. His filter this game looked nothing like his scum filter, but I figured he might've simply learned from his mistakes. His filter this game didn't seem quite like town vivax either, hence why I was comfortable lynching him. I think your opinion of me might change after we see talis flip scum. The fact that he hasn't posted in like 22 hours even with mounting suspicion against him pretty much confirms him as scum imo. sciberbia I think it's a little weird that you have no misgivings about how this lynch has no resistance. The portion of Milton's post I just quoted...what do you make of it? Remember that you can't just look at someone's words, but the intent behind them. It doesn't matter what we think of Talis' behavior concerning the plan. What matters is what he thinks about it. Milton points out how Talis carries through with it, despite knowing the flak it is generating against him. Is the more logical motivation for this a) townie who thinks he is doing good for town, or b) scum who is trying to fill space, knowing that people are directly looking at him do it | ||
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what do you think of Milton's point On July 17 2012 03:27 Miltonkram wrote: Regarding the case on talismania, I'm really uncomfortable about it. There's a lot in his filter that I find strange such as his obsession with his D1 plan and his subpar case-making. The thing that gives me pause is the fact that he continued commenting on his plan despite getting a ton of shit for it. I realize this is completely different from what I was saying earlier, but the fact that he followed his plan through to completion, whether or not it was a good plan in other people's eyes, gives me the impression that he thought it was a good plan. His D1 plan counts as a townie point in my book. | ||
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In response to your question about why I voted Risen, I had him along with Milton on D1 on my 'to-kill' list. Nobody was interested in killing Milton, so I went with Risen. I had to leave before all the late movement, so my vote stayed where it was. You find the reasons for my suspicions on Risen suspect, so I'll explain. As far as Risen posting about it being too early to make reads, it has nothing to do with if he is right or not. My point is when he does, or doesn't say it. He actually does say this when he is town too, but in the games I looked at it is more frequent when he is scum. My second part was him being forthcoming/defending his town reads. There is a reason I included both of those words. He did call you out, but he concluded you were probably town. Also, here is him defending Mattchew: On July 13 2012 02:55 Risen wrote: I've had experience with Mattchew being scum, as we were both godfathers who flipped vigis in some other game I can't remember the name of. I think he's WAY, WAY, WAY more active and useful this game ALREADY than he was that game. | ||
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I was just typing how this was such a catch 22, I keep looking at Tali's filter and I have a terrible feeling he is going to flip green. I have to decide if I'm sure enough to risk dying for it : / | ||
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Anyway though it doesn't matter. The thing is being absent seems like a weird play for either side. Quick note also. Go look at Talis' posting on Dropbear. It's clear to me that Dropbear's reactions to the prodding are part of Talis' read. Those questions you quoted are in line with that. Mattchew, where are you? | ||
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At the time of my case, you were defending Mattchew. I only brought it up because Dropbear asked me about my thinking at that time. | ||
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for the record, i think you're scum ##vote: gonzaw | ||
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##unvote while I think about that one. I went through your day one filter and saw pretty much nothing on s&b. this is your last post before the day post: On July 15 2012 06:32 Risen wrote: If I die, be suspicious of anyone who hard defended Vivax. No one should have felt he was towny (only scum would be defending him hard because they're the ones who KNOW he's town, like I did with VE day 1 of my last scum game. Gave me town cred up the wazoo yo), and be even more wary of anyone who was hard defending him and ended up on him instead of DropBear. Day post in 30 mins. in fact you called a lot of people scummy, but never him | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:42 Risen wrote: I'm convinces at this point two of viv/s0L/marv/austin have to be scum... This is so circlejerky it hurts... it's literally flooding the thread to defend vivax. | ||
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Everyone needs to be vetting this claim btw. I find a N1 s&b check extremely odd. | ||
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I'm not closing my mind to any possibility. | ||
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His filter looks a lot like what I'd expect a blue Risen's filter to look like. He has a hard time escaping his typical town play where he accuses just about everyone, but was cautious enough to not really antagonize s&b. His guilt, in the form of all the sorrys and post-lynch Vivax obsession, makes a lot more sense now. He contributed a lot in getting a townie lynched, and was feeling guilty because he didn't want to let down the rest of town by drawing a vig shot N1 while playing a power role. I will be revisiting this later, but I agree with Mattchew that we really should be focusing on Gonzaw. I was a little hasty with my vote I feel like. I still want to hear his defense. | ||
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Mattchew especially, since he is a vet and good player overall. I would think the optimal play for scum Gonzaw would be to kill Matt and then WIFOM his way out of the increased guilt. Anyone else thought about this at all? | ||
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I hate set-up speculation...but how likely is it that town has a DT, JK, and two masons in a 13 player mini? I'm kind of thinking there isn't one | ||
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On July 17 2012 11:04 Mattchew wrote: I just read Risen's entire filter, and couldn't find any inconsistencies or holes in logic. Even his read on me I can't really argue with. I haven't been as active as I should this game and while I don't think I have tried to fly under the radar, I could see where one may draw that conclusion. His reads are constantly evolving and changing more WAY more than when I played with him as scum, and he basically started and got Vivax lynched. While I didn't agree with the lynch + Show Spoiler + This leads me to my next scum candidate. Gonzaw. I was waiting to push this until Talis flipped because A. I wanted to see if he was scum and B. I wanted to keep the conversation on Talis. I will make my case before deadline tomorrow. I have a lot of it mapped out in my head just not written down yet and I want to keep up with the fast pace of Bureaurcracy Mafia tonight Is this statement still true Mattchew? | ||
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aside from all that, we've been talking about the set-up, NK stuff, the other mason etc....and you don't seem to care that we aren't talking about gonzaw your push on gonzaw feels very, very different from your push on Talis so far. | ||
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the truth though is that I have to think on it more. Your change in behavior has raised my eyebrows, and lends a little credence to the idea of you bussing Talis. | ||
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Listen up town, Mattchew is scum. On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. Let's start here. Look at what he tells s&b. Your posts thus far could come from either town or scum i.e. are neutral. He then goes on listing problems with it. -longwinded -off topic -bad read -bad reasoning for vote ...and the conclusion from this is neutral. After listing reasons for finding something suspicious, your end result should be 'I am suspicious of you.' More, who accuses someone of not looking definitively town in their first few posts? Someone who already knows the alignment of the person they are addressing. It wasn't 's&b your first few posts are crap and scummy looking,' it was 's&b you haven't shown me you are town in your first few posts.' Look now at what he did on day 1. This was basically his scum-hunting: On July 13 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote: Marv I want to disagree with you so bad, but I was wrong about something JUST LIKE this is MTG mafia... hmm I don't like the way sciberbia has been posting... it all seems forced as hell like the way he says He clarifies that he's only saying this cause gonzaw asked, kinda reads to me like hes paranoid about not answering a question in the thread On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote: Lets kill talis, Keirathi or scib Talis cause he's proposing anti town plans and then backpeddling super fast Keirathi cause he's posting super carefully, and his reads seem forced scib cause he seems hesitant to post, and he posts this (it was spoilered) as he has not pushed a single read yet This would be a weak day 1 from anybody, but it is especially so from a vet. He leaves his vote on sciberbia and drops off the face of the earth. Compare that now to day 2, where he goes balls to the wall trying to get Talismania lynched. He is sure of himself, he convinces others to get on board. He basically doesn't leave it alone until he gets what he wants: a Talis lynch. Have a look: On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote: Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis? On July 16 2012 05:42 Mattchew wrote: still suspicious, just sure of you, nice scummy deflection btw and risen, do you not agree with my case on Talis? What do you find wrong with it or townie about him On July 16 2012 07:05 Mattchew wrote: I was in a hurry, but I am sick of playing in games and making weekend excuses for not being able post as much as I would like. Read my case on Talis, tell me where I am wrong or vote with me on him. On July 16 2012 07:06 Mattchew wrote: S&B your thoughts on talis? I want him dead This is a mismatch, like he flipped a switch and all of a sudden he is a scum-finding machine. It also reeks again of Mattchew already knowing someone's alignment. Now let's move to after the lynch. On July 17 2012 12:08 Mattchew wrote: Like, no offense to scib, but I would put a lot of the weight on Talis actually getting lynched on me forcing attention onto him. Scib's case was good and all, but would you agree that without me pushing individuals (not just HEY THREAD I MADE A CASE) was the real reason for all the votes on Talis? I wanted to get Talis lynched, something you flipflopped on a lot which I am extremely suspicious of. I think I did a pretty good job of bringing people from "I would lynch x,x, and talis," to actually voting and getting on Talis. But thats enough for patting myself on the back. What is he doing here? Why does he care so much about who is getting the credit for Talis' lynch? What's more, he's justifying it to the person who he is the next most suspicious of after Talis' lynch. Why even bother? Because who is getting the credit directly affects how well Mattchew's bus on Talismania worked. Now let's move on to night2/day2. He is supposedly trying to get Gonzaw lynched. Let's look at him pushing this case: On July 18 2012 13:57 Mattchew wrote: Wait Risen, why dont you think gonzaw is scum anymore? On July 18 2012 14:54 Mattchew wrote: Yeah so we should be lynching Gonzaw, cause hes scum The end. That is, until I called him out on it, then he is all about getting us on-board. This does not match with how he was pushing Talis. The early part of day 2 turned out to be a crucial time for Mattchew if he wanted his target lynched. At the time (earlier today) there was a lot of finger-pointing going on/discussion of things not gonzaw. I summarized it before, but I'll repeat it for shits and giggles. -Dropbear wants to kill Risen -s&b is suspicious of Risen -risen is suspicious of keir -we talk about the NK -we talk about the set-up -we talk about the mason claim We are definitely not focusing on gonzaw at that time. So Mattchew should be seeking to get us on track. But instead he is doing this: On July 19 2012 06:55 Mattchew wrote: Gonzaw you have a seven page filter, mind reposting your accusations against me 'Gonzaw, my #1 scum read, could you please post your suspicions of me again so I can address them?' Doesn't fit. We were half way through day 2, starting to peel away from Mattchew's target, and he is asking his scum read to remake his case against him. Now for some extraneous stuff: -here's him swinging the WIFOM bat around: On July 13 2012 04:55 Mattchew wrote: The moment you think marv is scum, is the moment you should realize hes town. Also, marv and gonz, what do you think of scib On July 13 2012 07:43 Mattchew wrote: So you know that you do this as town, whats to stop you from doing so as scum? Here's some buddying: On July 12 2012 23:57 Mattchew wrote: Marv how fucking buddied up are we right <3 On July 17 2012 13:55 Mattchew wrote: And yeah I probably took too much credit from scib... meh <3 he's my bud now <3 NK shit: I don't care how you want to WIFOM around this, I have a very hard time thinking a scum team would leave Mattchew alone on N2 after he just wtfpwned Talis on day 2. He is a vet and a known good player. There was no N1 RB, so they could be reasonably sure that there was no JK. s&b does this fit with your early game thoughts on Marv? ;D His dealings with Risen: Here is an older read on Risen: On July 17 2012 11:04 Mattchew wrote: I just read Risen's entire filter, and couldn't find any inconsistencies or holes in logic. Even his read on me I can't really argue with. I haven't been as active as I should this game and while I don't think I have tried to fly under the radar, I could see where one may draw that conclusion. His reads are constantly evolving and changing more WAY more than when I played with him as scum, and he basically started and got Vivax lynched. While I didn't agree with the lynch + Show Spoiler + This leads me to my next scum candidate. Gonzaw. I was waiting to push this until Talis flipped because A. I wanted to see if he was scum and B. I wanted to keep the conversation on Talis. I will make my case before deadline tomorrow. I have a lot of it mapped out in my head just not written down yet and I want to keep up with the fast pace of Bureaurcracy Mafia tonight I question him on this. Risen has been making logic holes the size of Jupiter since his claim. On July 19 2012 07:16 Mattchew wrote: Not exactly, because of his gonzaw play which I don't fully understand, but I don't think that changes my read on him in anyway A read, that lead off with the strength of Risen's logic and consistency, is not affected by Risen's recent logic and inconsistency? This really smells scummy. One last thing. Look at his opinion of the current state of the thread when we are talking about anything EXCEPT his top scum read: On July 19 2012 07:18 Mattchew wrote: have we lost focus? I think a very high percentage of posts today are about who people think are scum and who to lynch today He thinks it's good that we are trying to find scum outside of gonzaw, even though he has already found it in gonzaw. So, to sum up: -shitty day 1 scum hunting -extreme pursuit of Talis on day 2... -...which doesn't match at all his pursuit of the gonzaw read -lack of pursuit on his 2nd main scumread -play which exhibits signs of Mattchew knowing people's alignment -very bad logic in his read on Risen -WIFOM batting us all -buddying -being alive after N2 I think Mattchew is scum and I want us to kill him today ##vote Mattchew | ||
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Town, read my case, read Matt's filter, and then vote. Mattchew must die. | ||
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yes I am extremely sure. I read gonzaw as scummy, but Mattchew infinitely more so. I will revisit Gonzaw after Matt's flip. Go through Matt's filter and see how hard it is to get him to talk about Risen. He said he would on day 1, and then didn't. I asked him again, and he wouldn't until after Tali's flip. After Tali's flip, i had to ask him AGAIN. Matt's read on Risen not being affected by Risen's recent play creates a strong linkage for me. Like I said though, today we kill Mattchew. | ||
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ladies and gentlemen, your scum team! | ||
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I hope to see lots of matt votes when I wake up | ||
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I'm not letting this go, my case against Mattchew is here. Read it. sciberbia-- your suspicions of me are blinding you the the merit of my arguments here. The thing that should stand out the most is how different Mattchew has looked while trying to get Talis killed, and while trying to get gonzaw killed. With Talis, he built up this huge head of steam, asked us as individuals to get on his case...basically forced it through however he could. Compare that with gonzaw. He posts a case, then while it lingers and we aren't talking about it, he spends his time asking his #1 scum read to remake his case against him. He was barely trying to push this read when it REALLY needed to be pushed. This is really important, it's strong evidence that Talis was a bus. s&b-- have you read my case? I want you to vote Mattchew. Go through his filter with a mind for both scum and town motivation. Remember he busses teammates a as scum. Look and tell me what he has done to help town win this game. gonzaw-- are you on board here? I know you suspect Mattchew, I need to check but I think that is where your vote lies currently? I hope you stay on target here Milton-- same deal. I want to know what you think of my case. Keir-- You have been suspicious of Mattchew before. Does my case align with your thoughts on him? I want your vote. | ||
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You say Matt is terrible at posting cases and getting people to follow them....what about in the case where a townie is directly working with him to forward his interests? If sciberbia hadn't said anything against Talis, would this fit your idea of him not getting lynches as scum? Would we have lynched Talis without sciberbia's effort? Also, I'm going to correct you. It's the difference in his play between day 2 and day 3. Day 2- he's all over Talis, drives it ahead as best as he can....Day 3- after posting a case on gonzaw night 2, there is basically no push. He doesn't seem to mind that we are trying to find scum outside of gonzaw, when his top read was gonzaw. In fact he labels is a positive. On day 2, he told people they should be finding Talis scummier than their current read. He asked us as individuals to switch to his read. And like I said, when he should be pushing his case, when it must must MUST be pushed, he's wanting to defend himsel from his top scum read. I don't really know how else to spell this out. Please reconsider s&b | ||
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There is a difference, its definitely there. | ||
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--read on Risen is based largely on consistency and logic --is Risen still displaying consistency and logic Mattchew? --not exactly, but that doesnt change my read in any way wtf???? | ||
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On July 19 2012 07:16 Mattchew wrote: Not exactly, because of his gonzaw play which I don't fully understand, but I don't think that changes my read on him in anyway not changing in any way means....not changing in any way. I don't think there's much wiggle room there. | ||
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mattchew- I still find things about gonzaw that are scummy. I am much more confident in my read on you though, and I don't think it's likely that you are partners. | ||
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scum Talis is doing what he can to avoid the attention of the most active and verbose town player in the thread. it's the exact opposite of why some people believe Dropbear is town....he didn't mind holding gonzaw's nose to the grind-stone | ||
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So which is it? | ||
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On July 20 2012 02:35 Risen wrote: Lol wtf is this? If you're town you're doing a horrible job defending yourself. If they have rb I claim rb'd and get lynched tomorrow to confirm. If they have framer he better do a good job of guessing bc a smart cop will place his investigations where they aren't expected when there's a possible framer. Night one I almost literally threw a dart at a board of people to determine my check. If there is a framer and they want to let me live he and I will be doing the dance of wifom. The bolded is you saying that during N1, you chose almost at random who to check. Now look at this: On July 18 2012 09:31 s0Lstice wrote: cool ##unvote while I think about that one. I went through your day one filter and saw pretty much nothing on s&b. this is your last post before the day post: in fact you called a lot of people scummy, but never him On July 18 2012 09:44 Risen wrote: Yup I've been focusing on not being shot, but with mason claim (provided it isn't you or s&b) we pretty much have this game in the bag. Not sure how that makes you unvote gonzaw, though, unless you think the scum team is s&b and I, in which case that's quite the about face. Regardless, I think you have to lynch gonzaw or me today. I'll flip cop and then you lynch gonzaw or you lynch gonzaw and he flips either town or scum, if scum I die at night b/c scum can't afford me checking around and if town it's pretty WIFOM on whether scum lets me live another night so I get lynched the next night. Either you made your decision on who to check day 1, and didn't speak to him for fear of getting shot, or you decided at random on N1 to s&b, which you are asserting now. | ||
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If it's not you then I'd be cool with killing Risen. The more Risen talks, the worse his cop claim looks. Do you want to kill Risen? | ||
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Marv brought up vig shots a few times, so they would have reason to suspect him for being a vig. | ||
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Its getting close though, we need a lynch. | ||
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I will only vote for gonzaw if it's between that and a no-lynch | ||
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Are you guys really that averse to a mattchew lynch? There is nothing scummy in his play that has been pointed out that would draw your vote, especisally considering how split we are? | ||
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I'm going to give you a fair shake I promise, but your filter is first on the to-do list for me tomorrow | ||
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you saying I was a strong town read seems like a lie, just like your cop claim was a lie. I really don't see any reason to not lynch you tomorrow. I said I would go through your filter, and I will, but your desperate thrashing about is proof in the pudding. now you are calling s&b scummy? just lol | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:07 Miltonkram wrote: s0Lstice, all credit goes to you buddy. I owe you some pleasure time, heh heh Gonzaw, you get the begrudging pleasure time. LOL I missed this somehow Anyway, still filter diving. The connection between Mattchew and Risen seems pretty strong. Hopefully I find a little chunk of time to post some more extensive thoughts, but right now I'm still very much interested in killing Risen tomorrow. | ||
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On July 14 2012 03:30 Mattchew wrote: Imma read into risen now This was leading up to the day 1 lynch. He never followed through. On July 17 2012 11:04 Mattchew wrote: I just read Risen's entire filter, and couldn't find any inconsistencies or holes in logic. Even his read on me I can't really argue with. I haven't been as active as I should this game and while I don't think I have tried to fly under the radar, I could see where one may draw that conclusion. His reads are constantly evolving and changing more WAY more than when I played with him as scum, and he basically started and got Vivax lynched. While I didn't agree with the lynch + Show Spoiler + This leads me to my next scum candidate. Gonzaw. I was waiting to push this until Talis flipped because A. I wanted to see if he was scum and B. I wanted to keep the conversation on Talis. I will make my case before deadline tomorrow. I have a lot of it mapped out in my head just not written down yet and I want to keep up with the fast pace of Bureaurcracy Mafia tonight This should really be all you need. Read Risen's filter up to that time-stamp and see if YOU see any inconsistencies or logic holes. When Risen went off the deep end recently, I questioned Matt about the read: On July 19 2012 07:16 Mattchew wrote: Not exactly, because of his gonzaw play which I don't fully understand, but I don't think that changes my read on him in anyway He still clings to that town read, despite the reasons for making that read originally being no longer valid. And regarding the cop claim: On July 20 2012 00:05 Mattchew wrote: Announcement: I dont care about Risen's alignment today. He claimed cop, no one counter claimed, and no one has claimed any other blue role, which with a GF flip and no mason buddy claim makes me believe he is telling the truth. This is like the worst reason ever to clear a cop claim. The absolute first thing you must do is check the person's filter to see if the cop claim matches their play. Set-up speculation must come after. You had better believe that a scum Mattchew would have been ALL OVER this claim if Risen is actually town. This would have been such an easy mis-lynch for scum to direct, for a number of reasons. But Mattchew stubbornly sticks to that town read, for pretty much no good reason. Doesn't vet the cop claim, also for no good reason. I think this is a pretty strong connection, and makes a lot of sense with Risen as scum. | ||
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s&b was reading pretty strongly town anyway, so really he only 'confirmed' me. It's a worthwhile price to pay to give them: Mattchew: heavily pushed the lynch of confirmed scum on day 2 Risen: claimed cop with two green checks This gives them a lot of options going forward. If people buy the claim, they have 'cop' and a proven 'scum-hunter.' If they had managed to get your lynch to go though gonzaw, they wouldn't have been that far from lylo. | ||
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If he is town, he wouldn't be at huge risk of scum killing him because there were plenty of people suspicious of him. He's smart enough to know this. Also, if he was actually a cop, I believe he would have saved that claim for when he was legitimately in danger of being lynched, not right after the day post. | ||
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our set-up could have basically been 3 scum vs 11 VT scum have RB and GF, but we have no DT I'm beginning to think also that austin didn't have a mason buddy | ||
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but then again i know fuck all about balance xD | ||
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it would take some serious patience to hold that shot for two nights though | ||
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'everyone already viewed me as town anyway' is not a good enough reason. there is a HUGE difference between looking town and confirmed town | ||
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how much time do you think Keir and Milton spent in your filter this game? that was all wasted time | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:33 gonzaw wrote: Yeah, that was basically what made me doubt my read on him IF YOU GUYS HAD JUST READ MY NOVELS YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT! >_> fixed that for you ;D i kid i kid | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:49 sciberbia wrote: I was really impressed that you guys lynched Mattchew on D3 with me and s&b (arguably two most townie-looking) both arguing vehemently in favor of gonzaw instead. well done! I liked the town atmosphere in general. Good contributions from all over. We took turns being right and leading the town in the right direction. It felt chaotic but our endpoint was usually good. Matt's bus helped a lot too | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:58 sciberbia wrote: Especially as I've been talking to myself since austin died LOL sciberbia, what is your read on Milton it's largely the same as yours, sciberbia | ||
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good job town | ||
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I'm looking forward to your write-up. I'd like to know what was wrong with the analysis for both sciberbia's case on Talis, and my case on Mattchew. I've already learned one thing that was wrong with my case on Mattchew, but I'll keep it to myself until after I see the write-up. | ||
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I still think town did (comparatively) a pretty good job here overall, considering the town play I see in other games around here (LVI comes to mind). Much love to my newbie brethren <3 | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
My example will be this post: On July 13 2012 05:15 gonzaw wrote: Disclamer: This is the "list" of scummy guys I'm not that comfortable lynching and I'd like people's opinions on them (I think it's likely there is at least 1 scum in here...hell maybe all are scum >_>) About DropBear: I already posted what I think of him: + Show Spoiler [Thoughts on DropBear] + On July 13 2012 04:27 gonzaw wrote: The thing is his behaviour struck me as odd, and I wanted to "get the ball rolling" to see what happened.. Apparently nobody even commented on it, which was what I was expecting to. I was not confident in Dropbear being scum, but I got a feeling he could. Him later just discrediting my FoS, and general aggressiveness doesn't make me very comfortable FoSing him, since it's always more likely townies that do such thing; although I'm still wary of him buddying up to marv there and jumping on the Vivax bandwagon. *sigh* However that's not decisive evidence, yet he's still one of my candidates for scum. I'll reread some stuff and respond to other stuff later (just want to have the unvote right now so I don't have a vote and another one later, and so this post isn't huge) ##Unvote: DropBear About Risen: I already posted why this was weird. He came out of nowhere just to defend himself against me, but doesn't say anything at all about it, just posted a very apparent tautology without saying anything. Another thing I found weird was: He voted Vivax (I assume) because he didn't state why he voted S&B all of a sudden. However, in that 2nd post of his, Vivax already had 2 votes (marv+Dropbear) and Vivax already explained why he voted/unvoted S&B.....yet he doesn't comment anything about it. If he's town, he knows his vote is the most important thing he has (unless he's Awesome Vigilante with Homing Heat-seeking missiles that 100% target scum), so one would think he'd pay attention to things regarding the guy he's voting. Him softly-accusing Dropbear without actually taking a stance in the subject here: And his seemingly apologetic post here (that again is just an excuse for him not to do anything) Make me suspicious of him However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum. But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him About Milkton: This post seems fluffy as fuck, specially the 1st part. The "list of game I've played" is filler as well, it doesn't add anything else to the game Even after posting that he doesn't do anything later (is he still "busy" or something?) However it's his first fucking post so it's not like we can get a meaningful read out of it Well fuck, another wall of text So....I'll try to keep things a little bit separate and post my actual "scum reads" in the next post (it's just S&B+austin+Keirathi anyways....yeah SPOILERS whatever). The portion on Risen, you cite some posts and explain how you think they are weird. As I'm reading along, I'm processing your indictment of him, matching it to my own thoughts. Then I get to the bolded portion, and I see you don't really have any convictions on this at all. I had a lot of problems with this posting style...it's like a stream of consciousness. You open the brain valve and spill a bunch of stuff out and then turn it off X minutes later and hit post. The result is you present a lot of ideas, many of which you counter by yourself, finished off by a conclusion that has lost all meaning because it has no foundation to stand on. That back and forth you do with yourself needs to happen in your head. You need to arrive at a single endpoint prior to posting, and present evidence that supports it. If you can't do this, then you probably shouldn't be writing a wall of text on this player at this time. The more I saw you doing this, the more I wanted to tune you out. I really had to force myself to grind through your stuff to find where you stood on things. I seriously love your effort though...if you could find a way that works for you to narrow your posting down such that is concise and representative of your strongest convictions, then it would both make it easier for people to read you, and make it easier for town to get some use out of your best reads. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Just pointing things out is not enough, you need to justify why those things were worth pointing out in the first place. You need to tie them together into some form of final interpretation. Taking a stance on something with sound reasoning and good word economy is a good way to get people to listen to you. People will continue to listen to you even if you change your mind, provided you can explain/it is clear why you are doing so. This is a lot better than presenting two conflicting lines of thought and coming out on the other side totally luke-warm. Posts like the one I highlighted on day 1 set the tone for how people are going to gauge what you have to say. If you are presenting big blocks of 'I don't know,' they may be inclined to read you until they have a town read they are reasonably sure of and then mostly tune you out, or worse, they will begin to suspect you. This is what I feel happened this game. Your posts remained lengthy, but you took firmer stances as the game went on. By that point though, people either thought you were scum, or thought this was more of the same. I'm no guru by any means, so take this with a grain of salt of course. Also I hope you don't view this as me trying to debase you Hopefully some of my thoughts are constructive for you. I have plenty to learn from this game myself. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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