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EBWOP:
Massive screw up in the second last paragraph, it's meant to read:
Note also that he is very indecisive; he planned to vote for biosc or release, then hopeless1der, makes a case against biosc and then votes for hopeless1der despite saying he wouldn't.
On June 27 2012 08:14 Esspen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:07 BioSC wrote:
EBWOP: That goes for Esspen as well. There is NO excuse. There are plenty of cases to choose from. How people are missing Hopeless' scumminess is beyond me, but do NOT waste votes like that. You are too easy targets for scum to manipulate your votes like that. There are cases, but those cases are not going to be lynched anyway as now it's either Hopeless or Rofl. I unfortunately cannot vote for Hopeless as only thing he's done is gone maybe too far with attacking you, otherwise I completely agree with him.
This is his last post btw.
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I wanted to wait to see what Vivax would post before adding to Jinglehell's FOS, and he has more than delivered.
@Jinglehell, while you raise an interesting point about him making his presence known in a relatively inactive game to appear towny, my case doesn't actually revolve around any of that.
My case against Vivax:
The post that made me suspicious of Vivax was this one:
On June 27 2012 19:25 Vivax wrote:
Esspen voted for hopeless when rofl was set to lynch, as already mentioned.
If one of them is scum, the other most likely is, too. With the current information available, I would go for one of them.
Also remember that posting cases during the night can make you a target for scum.
Speaking of it, I think I'm the designed nightkill simply cause noone suspected me yet. Townies who are believed to be townies are dangerous for scum, and I didn't see any blue role vibes for them to use yet, so they don't have many alternatives.
What exactly makes you so special Vivax? If your definition of a townie believed to be a townie is someone who hadn't had suspicion cast on them yet, then at the time of that post, dNa, keirathi, JieXian and myself all fit the bill. Why would you be the only candidate for being shot? I think you're trying to make yourself look more towny than you really are.
Now for this next part I'd like people to follow his filter as they read my post, because there are too many suspicious posts for me to place here:
The other thing that I find suspicious is your habit of going after easy targets, and insistence in voting for JingleHell over esspen. Your basis for voting rofl in the first place was his lurking. Jinglehell has already posted way more than rofl has, yet you still prefer his lynch over esspen because you think a Jinglehell lynch would yield more information. We now know rofl didn't post because of RL issues; he was replaced. He wasn't lurking with a mafia agenda. His replacement is now active, not lurking. Why are you still going after him over esspen or dNa?
Your main target now is Keirathi. Again, the easy target because he hasn't done anything in awhile. But again, why Keirathi over esspen or dNa? Since the policy discussion on day 1, Keirathi didn't even vote, and should have been modkilled/replaced by now. Keirathi is not lurking with a mafia agenda either.
I'm thinking you're trying to leave the esspen vs jinglehell lynch alive as long as possible by going for Keirathi. This way, town will have to deal with the potential relationship between esspen and jinglehell and lynch one, when YOU know that neither one is mafia.
He put a lot of effort into discussing policy the entire game (look at how detailed and thorough his first post in the game is compared to the rest), and has not made a single case against anyone. I don't count casting suspicion all over the place (especially with regards to esspen and jingle) and then wanting to go after keirathi for lurking (which i already pointed out as flawed) as making cases.
Lastly:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2012 20:41 Vivax wrote:If we kill Esspen and he is scum, then JingleHell most likely is scum, too. (For being protected by Esspen against his own beliefs) If we kill Esspen and he is townie, then JingleHell can be anything. If we kill Jinglehell and he is scum, then Esspen is either scum or a misled townie with confusing playstyle. If we kill Jinglehell and he is town, then Esspen probably isn't scum cause scum would have known Jinglehell (roflwaffle55) was town, and wouldn't have had to vote like that. I still find these options to be risky overall, so I went on with looking at other information: Let's have a look at the nightkill, scum has to be sloppy to use it to kill people suspecting them openly. They would rather use nightkills to cast suspicion upon others. However, in this case, Release had a lot of interesting interactions at the start: -He was the first to suspect Hopeless1der -dNa was the first to suspect Release -immediately after, Keirathi put his FoS on him aswell based on the same argument dNa used (using votes so early isn't good, they said.) + Show Spoiler +Ok, I got suspicious about Keirathi here, so I had a quick look at his filter, and
-Keirathi tried to put doubt on the most active townie soon and only after another one did.
-He doesn't post anything suspicious about Release on his own, instead he tries to encourage more policy discussion.
When he's done with that, he suddenly drops his Release FoS cause 'he's putting himself too much into the limelight for a townie'. After dropping the FoS, he immediately follows other townies into the attention switch onto Esspen.
Keirathi: Bandwagony, really weak contributions, tries to blend in, keeps activity to a minimum. - JieXian posted a case against Release. - After the lynch, Release called out BioSC for his criticism of high activity. No real threat for Bio here yet. Then, he got killed. I'd like to hear some more regarding Release's death and especially Keirathi. Latter has a very passive, safe playstyle, the mafiavibes are strong with this one. FoS: Keirathi
You can't speculate on night kills like this. I could just as easily say mafia killed the people who WERE suspecting them openly because they figure people would never think they'd do something that obvious. I believe prompting discussion about night kills like this (half of that whole post) and your constant focusing on "lurkers" who aren't actually lurking in a scummy fashion is an attempt at confusing town and stifling useful discussion.
For now, I am getting off esspen and going for you Vivax
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Oh wow, sorry for the massive space at the bottom, my mistake.
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EBWOP:
I'm thinking you're trying to leave the esspen vs jinglehell lynch alive as long as possible by going for Keirathi. This way, town will have to deal with the potential relationship between esspen and jinglehell and lynch one later in the game, when YOU know that neither one is mafia.
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On my phone right now, skimmed over stuff. Vivax still holding out on defense post? And I'm guessing your failproof defense is that you attempted to switch last minute to roflwaffle in the day one vote but it wad too late.
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I'm back now, gonna go over the last few pages in detail. Vivax, you realise this makes it very hard for JieXian and myself who are on the other side of the world right? I was looking forward to reading your defense and weighing it up against the case I and the others made against you. Instead, I now have to put in my vote in a few hours' time before I sleep without having read anything substantial from you. That aside, posting your case so late is going to confuse, and could potentially cause last minute vote switches when people can't even discuss your case. Should we just all post our reads and defenses at the last minute so mafia can't "get themselves back into a safe spot?"
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Here's my problem with esspen. We can all agree he has been posting... sub-optimally.So much so that most of us have voted or FOS'd him at some point in the game but were never quite sure because of how blatantly weird/anti-town his posts have been. However, the bolded section of this post by dNa got me thinking:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2012 11:11 dNa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 10:00 Miltonkram wrote:Let's take a look at what dNa just said: ---snip
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them. Not good reasoning. We're here to lynch scum, not confusing/suboptimal players. dNa's reasoning reeks of scumminess. I think we just found our last scum guys. My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers? Another scummy point for Vivax: - He's been pretty content to sit back and just pressure lurkers. This is another deviation from his town play in NMM XV. I'd imagine a town Vivax would put a bit more effort into cases against active players. Pushing for a lurker lynch is a really non-confrontational move. Tralalala, obvious scum is obvious. Since Esspen has come under heavy fire, here's a town point in his favor. In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions:
1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax
2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me He's either making a ballsy scum move, or this is extremely pro-town. Offering to take the lynch in order to confirm that your reads are made in good faith isn't a move most scum would think of IMO. If the assumptions I've made on our scumteam are wrong, then I'll rethink taking Esspen up on his offer. I've got to take a rather long trip, my case on BioSC will have to wait for a little while. I'm feeling pretty good about this game  I really enjoy where you put out all the reasoning behind my vote and just quoted the one thing that does not 100% point into esspen's direction, although part of it does. really great manipulation in this post, i'll give you that. to your points against vivax i'm only seeing alot of "metagaming" on your end, no actual tells in this game. in regards to your points about Esspen i agree, this is one thing not many scum players would have done... then again maybe he saw that after the history he has gotten in this channel, he has lost his value as a scum asset and therefore - after consolidating with his teammates, decided to make this move to: 1. appear not scummy for once 2. increase the amount of attention in regards to Vivax's case.
If indeed esspen is scum (and is now seen as a liability to his team) and vivax is town, he could very well just be adding another vote to vivax to force the lynch, not caring that he will be up next if the flip reveals vivax is town, hence his fearlessness in saying that we should lynch him should vivax flip town to give himself town cred (what do you think of this Miltonkram? This was your soft defense of him after all). Even though I've switched to pressuring Vivax now, I'm still very suspicious of esspen; I feel that my original case against him from a few days ago is still valid, and what I've discussed here doesn't help improve my opinion of him. However...
Vivax, as it is, I cannot change my vote from you, because I haven't read your secret defense post. Again, I sincerely did want to, because I did agree with you that it was hard not to target lurkers considering that amount of activity in the thread at that point. It was that post I highlighted in my case (where you said you thought you were the most towny and therefore most likely to be shot) and your choice in exactly which lurkers to target that pushed me to making a case on you. I will try to get online before the deadline to read it, and if it is convincing enough, change my vote accordingly.
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At the very least, I am pleased with the activity this has generated. On top of my suspicion, part of the reasoning for my posting an actual case was so we could get discussion on something other than esspen and lurkers. Btw Vivax, when you say my posts have "craploads of mistakes in them" I hope you are talking about the typos rather than the actual content... If so, let's just say I'm not a fan of the Android system's autocorrect function. I do apologise about that though, and the sometimes brief/quick posts when I'm rushing. I normally post the meatier stuff around this time (my night) if you haven't noticed, so this is usually when I can really delve into things. That being said, I have a party tomorrow night, so I won't be as active. Also, I forgot to actually
##Vote Vivax
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Vivax I'll be around for another 2 hours-ish if you're still around.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2012 16:15 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 03:21 Esspen wrote:On June 29 2012 02:45 BioSC wrote:
Now that you are here, and have posted your reads, which of me or Vivax is the bigger scum read atm?
Both, I'm certain for you 98% and Vivax 102% (ok that means Vivax). And this defence of eachother just makes me think you are both scums. In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions: 1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax 2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me WTF? You start the post attacking and linking Bio and Vivax together and end by putting the 2 people who are most likely to be lynched on the line? To gain what? You don't make any sense Esspen.................................... For now you're next on my list after Vivax. Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 10:00 Miltonkram wrote:Let's take a look at what dNa just said: ---snip
The reason why i vote for Esspen and not for JingleHell is that, Esspen's posts overall are just confusing, not really helpful, and even if all my suspicions on them were wrong and they really would be townies, he seems the better guy to lose of them. Not good reasoning. We're here to lynch scum, not confusing/suboptimal players. dNa's reasoning reeks of scumminess. I think we just found our last scum guys. My plan is we lynch Vivax today, BioSC tomorrow, and dNa the next, though I really don't care about the order. Any takers?Another scummy point for Vivax: - He's been pretty content to sit back and just pressure lurkers. This is another deviation from his town play in NMM XV. I'd imagine a town Vivax would put a bit more effort into cases against active players. Pushing for a lurker lynch is a really non-confrontational move. Tralalala, obvious scum is obvious. Since Esspen has come under heavy fire, here's a town point in his favor. In case Vivax (i know i said i believe both BioSC and Vivax are scums, but more people seem to dislike Vivax) won't seem to get lynched this day I have two propositions:
1: you lynch me and if I turn out to be townie, you lynch Vivax
2: you lynch Vivax and if he turns out to be townie, you lynch me He's either making a ballsy scum move, or this is extremely pro-town. Offering to take the lynch in order to confirm that your reads are made in good faith isn't a move most scum would think of IMO. If the assumptions I've made on our scumteam are wrong, then I'll rethink taking Esspen up on his offer. I've got to take a rather long trip, my case on BioSC will have to wait for a little while. I'm feeling pretty good about this game I'm giving you the BOTD for now in abscence of much evidence but HOLY SHIT that really sounds like a scumslip: How the hell can you be so dead sure of yourself?
That defense of Esspen isn't a defense at all imo, everyone knows both of them are on the chopping block either way. However if Esspen is scum you won't be feeling good about yourself. So I'm not linking both of you together as scum. Rather I see it as a pretentious defense of Esspen for townie cred since he's probably going to die anyways and you would know that he's townie.If both Vivax and Esspen flip townie I'm going to hunt for Milton. (Unless of course either Bio or Dna flip scum) ok I'm quite worried about dying now so IF I GET SHOT TONIGHT FUCKIGN HUNT MILTON DOWN If I'm wrong and I know it's a long shot with a lot of ifs, Milton sorry for being crazy. If either 3 of them from your list flip scum you're gonna get some townie cred from me.
This is another take regarding esspen that I had considered earlier. That nagging feeling that in fact esspen is town and we're all being played by mafia. However, JieXian, I disagree with you holding Miltonkram's confidence against him. Him saying that he feels "pretty good about the game" is a rather trivial remark. I think we both agree that his soft defense of esspen may warrant further discussion though, but that is for another day I think.
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Damn it, I suspected you were the DT. Your playstyle kind of reminded me of my own when I played DT in my first game, but I couldn't be sure. Because of this, I'm willing to take the chance and take you on your word that you are in fact the DT. I'm not too sure about your decision to roleclaim, since I don't think your lynch is set in stone and you could've breadcrumbed as insurance, but I understand it's hard given that 2 of the votes on you were in different time zones and may not have been changed.
## Vote JingleHell
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Um I never said there was a breadcrum, he just straight out roleclaimed.
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I don't know what you don't understand, but let me take a stab at guessing. I'm saying it might have been preferable for him to breadcrumb INSTEAD of straight out roleclaiming, on the chance that he doesn't get lynched, so that our DT stays hidden.
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On June 29 2012 23:18 JingleHell wrote:So a false roleclaim and a false accusation is your "perfect" proof? Again, an effort to contravene the weight of evidence based on trying to force a reaction. I suppose, Vivax, that on night 1, you checked every single individual who was going to make a case against you today, and everyone is scum, right? Tell me, out of your "scumlist" you posted earlier, of listed in that order, why would you not have listed or weighted the names differently? Why would you discuss lynching for information that you already have and aren't uncomfortable giving out with a roleclaim? Something doesn't add up here, so I'm going to accuse you of a false roleclaim to get your head off the chopping block.
Jinglehell, the DT is meant to play like a normal town player. He is allowed to have a scumlist, based on relationships he believes exists between players. It can be argued that a relationship exists between Miltonkram, Esspen and yourself, for instance. He doesn't need to check a person before making a case against them. People would then be asking why he is so slow to make cases or confirm his position, and could make others supicious of his true role. Also, the way he formatted the list is something that is trivial at best IMO.
Esspen, same points apply to you. He is allowed to accuse more than one person even though he has a positive check on one. His decision to vote keirathi is strange, I'll admit, and hopefully he can explain it before I sleep. However, I'm still leaving my vote on you jinglehell.
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The DT can only make checks at night. That was still during day 1.
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Vivax, my post was in reply to this post by JieXian, explaining why it wasn't possible for you to have a scum check on waffles on day 1.
On June 30 2012 00:11 JieXian wrote:Vivax I'm ready to give you the BOTD and unvote you since I mainly voted you to get because you were really irritated me by wanting to post after feeling threathened, if you can clarify a few things: Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 19:25 Vivax wrote:
Esspen voted for hopeless when rofl was set to lynch, as already mentioned.
If one of them is scum, the other most likely is, too. With the current information available, I would go for one of them.
Also remember that posting cases during the night can make you a target for scum.
Speaking of it, I think I'm the designed nightkill simply cause noone suspected me yet. Townies who are believed to be townies are dangerous for scum, and I didn't see any blue role vibes for them to use yet, so they don't have many alternatives. Why are you as a DT asking to be killed? Especially since you didn't breadcrumb anything as insurance? Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 09:02 Vivax wrote:
Oh god my vote didn't get through in time -.- And that gives me seeeeeeeeeeeerious doubts about for roleclaim right there. Why the hell delay if you knew he was scum?
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If you haven't been following I've been on your side since your role claim...
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Off to bed, should be back before day 2's end.
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I was banking on vivax playing a timid/overly cautious DT only making solid cases after he made checks, hence my vote change despite his qeustionable play. I'm gonna review everything and have jinglehell pushed back to a null read for now despite vivax's last post, since I am not a fan of his focus on hypotheticals.
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Ebwop: only wanting to make solid cases on people after he had checked them during nights, hence his apparent inconsistencies before he could actually make said checks. This is why I believed his DT claim. Maybe it's from having played DT in my previous game.
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EPT
