|
On May 30 2012 13:04 slOosh wrote:
I like that reasoning HiroPro, but it makes the assumption that we will be split between 2 candidates. No doubt that mafia will play to the poison, adopting a playstyle that abuses said poisons for their advantage. The secret hidden vote poison is most powerful when there are multiple suspects / lynch candidates, and weakest when the town as a total is consolidated and not near lylo.
I'm inclined to think that D1 is the easiest day to fissure the town and bring up multiple lynch suspects and split votes, and potentially drive the fear of no-lynch into guide town into a mislynch. It will probably be a weaker poison on D2 where it is more difficult to bring up serious lynch candidates, opposed to D1 when bringing up anyone is all cool and no reason for suspicion.
Right now it is even number, and unless we get a medic prot (which is great), then with one lynch and one night kill we will have even number D2. Thoughts on the lynch lock?
I think you can apply the same reasoning to "majority+1", also right? I think most people will realize that since it's "extended majority lynch" that coming together is essential. I guess it doesn't really make much of difference. You're right; day 2 will probably also have an even number of people. As long as "majority+1" and "secret hidden vote" are the first two poisons chosen, it doesn't really matter to me.
On the "lynch lock", I think it's a good poison to use midway through the game to go from the ok early-game ones that I mentioned to the ok late-game ones. It was used throughout "I'm a cop you idiot", I think?, and it didn't seem to cause too much chaos there. People just have to be disciplined and not vote until close to the deadline. I kind of agree with you that it's probably not best at lylo; that's why I suggested it for day 3. The reason that I don't want "lynch lock" on day 1 is that I feel that majority+1" and "secret hidden vote" get much stronger as the game goes on, so it's best to use them as soon as possible. Like, both of those make lylo impossible to win for town.
|
On May 30 2012 13:04 slOosh wrote:
I like that reasoning HiroPro, but it makes the assumption that we will be split between 2 candidates. No doubt that mafia will play to the poison, adopting a playstyle that abuses said poisons for their advantage. The secret hidden vote poison is most powerful when there are multiple suspects / lynch candidates, and weakest when the town as a total is consolidated and not near lylo.
I'm inclined to think that D1 is the easiest day to fissure the town and bring up multiple lynch suspects and split votes, and potentially drive the fear of no-lynch into guide town into a mislynch. It will probably be a weaker poison on D2 where it is more difficult to bring up serious lynch candidates, opposed to D1 when bringing up anyone is all cool and no reason for suspicion.
Right now it is even number, and unless we get a medic prot (which is great), then with one lynch and one night kill we will have even number D2. Thoughts on the lynch lock?
Lynch lock is the same any day it's used. I'm not even sure it's that dangerous late game.
Hiro is right. The two worst poisons late game are secret vote and majority +1 required (which means scum literally can't be lynched if it's 2v1, for instance). Hidden ballot is in the same boat as no flip - terrible unless it's the last day. I think majority + 1 is the best to get out of the way day one. We will have to avoid a no lynch no matter what, and one extra vote shouldn't be too hard to come by. I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
|
Lynch lock is definitely not that bad, it's actually the standard vote method on other sites and im used to using it right now, also sloosh splitting it further makes mafia's secret vote less useful not more, with majority lynch rules there's no way with even people they can cause a mislynch by tie and if it's split they just throw another vote into the mix, no way that causes a mislynch, worst case scenario if we choose that day 1 is if we for some reason (and there are almost 0) we want a no-lynch and they push someone over. For that reason i think a mafia vote for today is probably a good choice.
|
On May 30 2012 12:24 slOosh wrote:
WBG could you explain how we should approach the use of the mayoral lynch poison when/should we use it?
like personally I have two ideas:
Either we ignore the +1 vote to majority thing (so we basically aim to win the game before day 6) so we choose the relatively "weaker" poisons before then,
OR
We choose the "stronger" poisons that kick in real hard later early, and use things like the mayor election later.
The mayor election puts a lot of power into the hands of one player. In a game of this size it might not be a terrible thing to do on like day 2 or day 3 if we would go for the second route; i..e. choose something like +1 to majority on day 1 so that we can't auto-lose at lylo. Then, when we have a better sense of who is town, we use the mayor thing d2 or d3.
Sure, it means a player who appears town is far more likely to get shot early on (so that they are not available for the mayor election), but it's nice to pigeonhole mafia moves because that makes them easier to predict.
|
I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
I kind of disagree with this, because in the voting system that we have, "secret hidden vote" can never change the result from 1 candidate to another; in the worst-case scenarios all it can do is either change it from "highest vote-getter" to no lynch, or from no lynch to "highest vote-getter".
So essentially it's like a secret pardon that only mafia can use, or a secret trap door too I guess. As long as number of voters is even and people actually vote carefully (consolidate on 2 candidates), "secret hidden vote" is not that dangerous.
|
hiro is correct.
If we are to use the secret vote it should be on days where we have an even number of players alive.
|
On May 30 2012 13:42 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +
I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
I kind of disagree with this, because in the voting system that we have, "secret hidden vote" can never change the result from 1 candidate to another; in the worst-case scenarios all it can do is either change it from "highest vote-getter" to no lynch, or from no lynch to "highest vote-getter". So essentially it's like a secret pardon that only mafia can use, or a secret trap door too I guess. As long as number of voters is even and people actually vote carefully (consolidate on 2 candidates), "secret hidden vote" is not that dangerous.
How do you go from highest vote getter to no-lynch with a secret vote? From the rules it seems that if a player gets a majority of the votes first they are going to be lynched no matter what, because ties do not cause a no lynch.
The dangers of secret vote are in the following two scenarios:
1) vote is tied, majority to majority (6v6 on day one, e.g.) Then picking this poison and ending up in this scenario means we might as well have elected mafia mayor, as they decide who gets lynched and wifom ensues. Which means we would have to avoid a 6v6, which means we might as well have just used majority +1 poison.
2)vote is not tied (say 6-5-1), but mafia uses the secret vote early on the player who ends up with 5 votes. Then that player would be sent home. Again to avoid this scenario we aim for 7 votes, which means of course we might as well have used majority +1 poison.
Majority +1 and secret vote are both equally dangerous at the end of the game. If it's 1 mafia v 3 town, majority +1 means all three town have to correctly identify the mafia. Same goes for secret vote. Yet secret vote has the potential to give mafia mayor day one (outlined above) while majority +1 does not.
|
On May 30 2012 13:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
hiro is correct.
If we are to use the secret vote it should be on days where we have an even number of players alive.
I'm starting to think I'm mathing incorrectly but isn't it the case that there should always be an even number of players alive during the day phase? The only way there isn't is with a medic protect, assuming we don't no lynch.
|
|
|
Also framer is the worst role and godfather/roleblocker is equally good. Keep in mind that mafia picks town roles. Best pick for them is either double cop or double vigilante . No way there is an innocent child , doctor is unlikely with power roles.
|
Tracker and child are the best roles out there
|
ah this is 12 player and not 13 player...
guess it doesn't matter when we use secret vote really then. Probably earlier the better.
|
Since the mafia role selection is done in PMs and we're not going to have the voting results or the role itself revealed, scum is free to do whatever. There are only two ways to know for sure what role mafia got and that is 1) to get majority+3 voting for a single role and 2) flip the scum who got the role. talismania's encrypted vote idea should be implemented because it's never going to hurt and it will create some content that we can use for analysis.
Regarding the roles: Godfather is the safest because scum can only use it in two ways (have Godfather carry out night kills or not), this will make for the least confusion among potential town blues. Framer is the worst to give them because it will allow scum (and also townies and blues) to question all checks made by cop/tracker. Role blocker is also potentially useful for scum, especially in connection with claims (and counterclaims and fake claims) which I think could become very important this game.
Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked?
I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it. So I think we should all agree that Godfather is the safest thing we can do because it allows for the least manipulation by scum and the simplest logic always applying for town. The only down side is that potential cop can't always trust town checks but that's very much acceptable. I don't think scum will focus much on the role that they get when they consider the roles that they give us.
Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles?
As for the poison, my thoughts have already been stated. We should try to eliminate poisons that get stronger as early as possible. Majority+1 and secret vote are the best candidates for this. Here are my thoughts (list is malleable):
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot
Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock
Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch
Some people already said that we will be at even number players all game long baring medic saves, but vigilantes could also screw this up. Also, the no flip is not only alignment, it is also role which may suck since we cannot know if we killed the Godfather or just a goon.
@Kurumi Could you give us the reason behind your thoughts?
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
K, I'm skipping over the last page or so because I don't have much time, and want to get this said. My apologies if this has already been said.
Roleblocker is the pick we need to send in for mafia. The reason for this is the role we absolutely do not want a combination of framer/gf + cop/tracker. That gives us the least possible advantage in this game. By us publicly sending in the roleblocker, it basically forces mafia to give us 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child. If they decide to give us either cop or tracker that is even better, as we will KNOW that they only have a roleblocker and cannot throw off our investigations.
Roleblocker vs 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child is a fantastic place to be. If they happen to give us tracker or cop that is even better. It is far far better than any other scenario.
Role and Alignment being hidden we want to save until lylo, as at that point it doesn't hurt us. Likewise when only 1 mafia is left.
Voting being Secret we want to save until we have an obvious lynch.
Lynch locks once majority hits does not hurt us at all, and is our freebee.
Mayoral election is our second freebee.
Day cycle shortened to 24 hours we'll use in the lategame, as discussion is slow then anyways.
I'm out of time, more later.
|
##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj
ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b
##### End encrypted message
I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia.
I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline.
|
On May 30 2012 20:06 Radfield wrote:
K, I'm skipping over the last page or so because I don't have much time, and want to get this said. My apologies if this has already been said.
Roleblocker is the pick we need to send in for mafia. The reason for this is the role we absolutely do not want a combination of framer/gf + cop/tracker. That gives us the least possible advantage in this game. By us publicly sending in the roleblocker, it basically forces mafia to give us 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child. If they decide to give us either cop or tracker that is even better, as we will KNOW that they only have a roleblocker and cannot throw off our investigations.
Roleblocker vs 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child is a fantastic place to be. If they happen to give us tracker or cop that is even better. It is far far better than any other scenario.
Role and Alignment being hidden we want to save until lylo, as at that point it doesn't hurt us. Likewise when only 1 mafia is left.
Voting being Secret we want to save until we have an obvious lynch.
Lynch locks once majority hits does not hurt us at all, and is our freebee.
Mayoral election is our second freebee.
Day cycle shortened to 24 hours we'll use in the lategame, as discussion is slow then anyways.
I'm out of time, more later.
Mafia gets one role not two. Therefore , your entire argument is wrong, roleblocker is the best pick and framer is the worst . Gr is passive so it really depends .
|
Nevermind misread it , anyway roleblocker is the best role for mafia , active and can fiddle with everything .
|
sup on the RB / framer / GF matter:
I'd say RB looks like the best to give them. There are 2 major advantages I consider:
RB is hard to play. You have to "bluesnipe" with that thing and don't know wether or not you hit a blue. A Framer is kinda easy to do. Just target your buddy or target a townie that was up for lynch and you're good to go. You have a decent chance to screw town that way.
2nd Point is that a framer is way more dangerous than a RB. If we have a RB in play and some guy told us he got rb'ed, awesome, that's it. If we have a framer in play and some cop or tracker checked someone that can possibly end up disastrous.
Just picture C9++ #2.
I'd rather take the more steady and easy to read role. No shenanigans along the lines of "yeah but what if they framed him? What if he is the godfather" that end up splitting town in half pretty much every game. So yeah I'd say Roleblocker is the way to go.
|
What about poison 1? The instant majority thing. We could simplly make it no votes before 24 hours and still get the normal 48 hours.
At the same time day1 votes are usually incredible hard to get a majority on a target at all. Again, just picture C9++ #2.
The instant majority doesn't change a thing about it because the question is more or less wether we're able to get enough people follow the same lead and not wether we have multiple people that are everyone is williing to vote in a heartbeat.
So while the #1 poison might be dangerous later on I don't think it's dangerous early on.
|
Mornin guys.
I think there's a pretty good advantage in not consolidating votes for the mafia powers. If they're not sure what they'll get, they'll be forced to hedge their bets by giving us one roleblockable role and one information role. Discussing the mafia roles is only good if we can reach a conclusion of which one is best to give them in all cincumstances and I don't think that is the case.
Poisons are relatively straightforward:
-Lynch locks once majority is reached -> not really dangerous at any point, but as Toad pointed out, it would be useful to avoid getting a no-lynch on d1
-Voting is done using a secret ballot -> perfectly fine when only 1 mafia is left or we're at lylo
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote -> not a problem early on
-The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch -> days 2 or 3 (this one shouldn't be a problem at all, actually, as long as we force the mayor to lynch according to a town vote)
-The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden -> ok for lylo, though it might be a bitch if we still haven't killed the mafia PR
-Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch -> not a problem early on
-The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours -> this is actually somewhat of a boon later on, when the discussion tends to slow down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
