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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore). Please send in roleblocker. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch I agree with this, though I think we should save the secret ballot until we have an obvious lynch target. No need to use it up in the early game. I vote for majority +1 or giving mafia and extra secret vote for today. The earlier we give them their extra secret vote, the less powerful it is, so we should probably go with that one. I'm still skim-reading and post-skipping, but I should have time to actually read the thread tonight  | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] + ?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+ KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad  please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I think it's somewhat dangerous d1 because it's more likely to give us a NL but it's incredible easy to use later on in the right moment giving us about no drawbacks at all. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:41 Sbrubbles wrote: Also, if we force them to give us one roleblockable role and one information role, after we tally our votes, one of our PRs will be 100% sure of his accuracy. No, if we don't all decide on roleblocker, and KNOW that we have given them roleblocker, mafia just give us the cop and the tracker, and we can't trust either role because we don't know if there is a gf or framer. Which essentially means that we get no power roles, or worse, we get roles we can't trust. We NEED to know that they got roleblocker, or else all our checks are suspect, and mafia can talk themselves out of any red check. In every single scenario it is worth giving them roleblocker, and KNOWING that we have given them roleblocker. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote: IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] + ?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+ KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick.give us some time. We're still considering things and right now I think radfield and I are right about the roleblocker. I need to think things over at least a couple of hours or you get like 20 different strings from me :p | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote: IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] + ?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+ KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick.I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting?? | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote: I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting?? So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us. That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:52 Radfield wrote: No, if we don't all decide on roleblocker, and KNOW that we have given them roleblocker, mafia just give us the cop and the tracker, and we can't trust either role because we don't know if there is a gf or framer. Which essentially means that we get no power roles, or worse, we get roles we can't trust. We NEED to know that they got roleblocker, or else all our checks are suspect, and mafia can talk themselves out of any red check. In every single scenario it is worth giving them roleblocker, and KNOWING that we have given them roleblocker. exactly: On May 30 2012 21:15 Toadesstern wrote: [...] 2nd Point is that a framer is way more dangerous than a RB. If we have a RB in play and some guy told us he got rb'ed, awesome, that's it. If we have a framer in play and some cop or tracker checked someone that can possibly end up disastrous. Just picture C9++ #2. [...] A scenario like that is pretty much worst case scenario for us. I don't want to have town argue about wether or not a DT / tracker can be trusted or not because that usually ends up in a shitstorm and we don't get a lot of information out of it at all. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:56 Zephirdd wrote: So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us. That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever. when we ask everyone tomorrow what they sent in(without encrypting today), all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. If we encrypt are roles today, all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. Encrypting does nothing. Regardless, It doesn't matter if mafia know they are getting roleblocker, as they still have to give us the roles we want. There is no advantage to mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Anyway, I'm voting for role blocker. I was a little worried about role blocker interfering with power roles but the chance of even hitting power roles isn't that big and we shouldn't rely on them too much anyway. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On May 30 2012 22:01 Radfield wrote: when we ask everyone tomorrow what they sent in(without encrypting today), all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. If we encrypt are roles today, all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. Encrypting does nothing. Regardless, It doesn't matter if mafia know they are getting roleblocker, as they still have to give us the roles we want. There is no advantage to mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker. Having them know for sure they're gonna get roleblocker means they can get whatever combination of town roles they want. Tracker/Vig/Medic and even cop can get messed up. Also, giving them the roleblocker means they can give us Tracker/Medic without fear of the tracker claiming (I think this is the most likely scenario). I'm not saying it's a bad idea to give them the roleblocker, I just think keeping them in the dark is better. We'll know what role they got by tallying up our votes afterwards. If mafia chooses to mess us up by lying in a way that changes the results, we'll have a huge advantage afterwards if we manage to flip their PR. Think of this example: GF x Framer x Roleblocker Tally: 6 x 2 x 4 "Real" Tally: 3 x 2 x 4 If we flip their roleblocker or if someone is roleblocked, we'll know with 100% certainty that the 4 who voted for roleblocker are confirmed town. We won't be sure about the people who voted for framer because 4 x 1 x 4 is also an option, but the 4 confirmed townies is plenty of an advantage (note I'm not taking into account votes from confirmed townies votes, which would make figuring out who's lying easier). Anyway, my point is that mafia will probably not try to mess up the results of the voting, but if they do so it will be a huge risk for them. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote -Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch for that window. I do however see it as unlikely that it will come to day 7 so we can probably safely remove 1. For the voting I'm not sure if one power is stronger then the others but I agree that we're probably better of not sharing our votes ahead of time (so we use the encryption system) because I don't think any power we give the mafia will be more advantagous for us then not letting them know what we're giving them. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting. Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"? @Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"? | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:41 Radfield wrote: Roleblocker is by far the most useless role for mafia in this setup. I will gladly explain this in further detail once the roles are picked, but it should be obvious to anyone looking at the setup and considering mafia options. I don't want to say any more than that right now, but there is really no contest. Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore). Please send in roleblocker. If you fail to see how scummy this is, may Whoever help you | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote: Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying. I don't understand this. How does that open up the possibility for them to get busted for lying? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote: @Sbrubbles You say it yourself, it's a huge risk for them to try to rig anything so they're not going to do it. It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting. Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"? @Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"? My point is there are be one of two possibilities, if we don't consolidate votes: 1) Mafia doesn't mess up with our vote tally 2) Mafia messes up with our vote tally I assume they'll do 1, since I believe 2) is worse for them anyway. If we assumed wrong, we'll probably have wasted a PR, BUT we'll be able to deduce either the liars or who is telling the truth through the tally (I think my example is a reasonable one). And, of course, there's the intrinsic advantage of mafia not knowing what they're gonna get until they've already picked our roles. On May 30 2012 23:44 prplhz wrote: I don't understand this. How does that open up the possibility for them to get busted for lying? Mafia voting 1-1-1 is the only way for them to not mess up our vote tally (in other words, do option 1) and not get busted for lying. | ||
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