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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
ZZZZZ CMVBW HPUWK SWBSQ MUNRS KVNSU WBDFH UWMTR VLUPF HUBHV AAVRI BVLJM GGARH OFUWC GFLVN CDUIR KDVNP SDAXO DUAIJ TQALV XOHAW GXGCQ LRBUD RNVUJ DQUES GOTAI CLMJS XCVPT LIQAB PRHAD XELUF HJSJU KKTJV BGTUF KJLOH XRQDO SJLSA MWDHN GBGUH FKPAE FTEEO NTLQL BGNEA UVTIX FQQUV ASWFZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Luckily it's only a 3 minute walk from my place but my friend is not around so no leaving the house on this fine sunday eveneing for me, which means I'll have more time for you guys :3 Here's the answer for Zephirdd & prplhz. Red = my answer: On June 03 2012 19:45 prplhz wrote: 1: I don't consider that mafia agenda. I think it's better that we know what role mafia has and mafia know what role they have and what roles we have, than that we don't know any roles, and mafia knows all roles. Again, right now we can't know if scum has roleblocker or framer and that's a bad situation for us. I consider it mafia agend because we will know soon enough wether or not we have a RB or a framer. If noone claimes RB => framer, If someone claimes RB => RB. Yeah it could be faked but come on, who would do that 2: I didn't have a huge reasonable for voting wherebugsgo I agree with that but if you look at how the state of the thread was at the time, nothing was happening, so I made a case that doubled as pressure vote and something to discuss. I had more reasonable on Sbrubbles than what you are posting so you are really just misrepresenting me here. Wanting to lynch you was because nobody was hooked on anything else and I have a hard time reading you while other people were thinking that you were scum so it was an okay lynch. I also NEVER SAID that wherebugsgo HAS TO BE SCUM. You are misrepresenting me. I never said you said "WBG HAS TO BE SCUM". I said you never gave any reasoning for voting someone except for WBG and that was as weak as it can get. Also your reasoning on sbrubbles: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=254&topic_id=340727 Yeah right. That's huge, followed by I can totally see how you're backing up everything you're saying and how that is more than you said about WBG! My point still stands: I see you doing very little to explain your thoughts and only once in a while you explain something with either incredible weak reasoning or with something a townie would never say AFTER checking what people are willing to vote and what not. 3: How does it look like that? I want you to answer this question 'cause it looks to me like you're just taking the current buzzword and then applying it to a situation for no reason. If you read my posts you will see that I pushed wherebugsgo and Sbrubbles a lot harder than you make it look like, I'm not testing any waters. What does testing waters even mean? Yes you are. "Testing waters" or water temperature is somewhat like a metapher for a kid standing next to a pool and instead of jumping in the water he's sticking his toe in there to check if the water is okay to jump in. Is that a german thing? Anyways I'm seeing that. You keep on asking people what they think about someone without giving something yourself. And some hours later your decide for one guy (in this case WBG and sbrubbles) to push them once you see there's no opposition. And don't even tell me "yeah but look at what I did with nav". It only works in one direction for obvious reasons 4: Yea, different things goes for different people. I played with Navilus in Resistance 2, go read that game. He was afk for a long period of time and he was really sorry about it when he came back. I expected something similar this game but he wasn't sorry when he came back so I decided that he would be an okay lynch. So you're teling me it was some kind of trap because you already played with him? You think not posting is not alignment indicating and therefore you listed him with another lurker to check what people think about them and disagree about nav once someone would jump in and say they're both looking scummy due to their abstinence? Or what are you trying to tell me here? Why did you place him in there if not for the lurker thing? Why would you ask something like that about someone you have a townie-read? 5: My reasoning was that a guy who has played some mafia, but hasn't been scum before, wouldn't try to hide by blatantly only make two measly posts. 6: Show me a game where a first time scum has played day1 with only two posts. Only people with well established meta would ever attempt to do that. You say it's happening all the time but I'm saying that it's actually never happening. Show me a single game, 'cause I have never seen it. Do you seriously think that only making 2 posts is a very clear scum tell? Then why didn't you push Navilus at all? This sounds like something you are just making up to use in this analysis. 7: How do you know that he is? He wasn't afraid to posts because I saw him post quite a lot on day1. How is making only 2 measly posts hiding? And are you seriously asking me "How can anybody have any conception about how it is to play scum when they have never played scum before?" because I consider that a very silly question. 5-7 all together: Well I have a conception on how to drive a motorcycle as well and on how to play Zerg to beat Flash in BW ZvT. I never rode a motorcycle nor did beat Flash in a 1v1 yet. I'm pretty sure I'd fail horribly. Sure people have conceptions on how things should work out but that has nothing to do with reality, especially if it's your first time. All reasoning provided in here is SFW and was not intended as a metaphor for something else! This is all based on "he never played scum before and I think he would be better as scum than what he see here" and this has nothing to do with reality. Sure he might have an idea on how to play or was told to not be afraid to post but in the end doing that yourself is something entirely different so saying "as a first time mafia player he should know better" makes no sense at all. 8: I honestly don't even know what the accusations is here. What I do notice is that wherebugsgo gets some credit here for "not backing anything up, but still providing basic thoughts". You're accusing me of being scum for that very same reason in argument 2, and in argument 4 you're accusing me of being scum for having double standards! Hilarious. I'm not giving anyone cred, I only said that what wbg said is at least something people can work with while your usual posts are along the lines of "sup, what do you think of XXX?" while not doing something yourself. It's not about wbg looking good because he's not but he at least managed to make it look nullish while your posts are looking bad and you're asking him to clarify things... 9: Yea, maybe stuff is a little weak, but it was on day1. If you read his filter in Resistance 2 then you'll see him being quite sorry for being afk and I was expecting the same here, except if he didn't feel sorry at all because he was scum. Maybe it's weak, I don't particularly think so for a day1 argument. I didn't say "probably means he's mafia", this is blatant misrepresentation. If you read my posts I give my very clear read of him in that situation and that is, and I quote, because you apparently lack the ability to do so properly: "I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think." which translate to "null slightly leaning scum". I'm sure that you, in your fervor, can find something you consider scummy about that too, but can you please argue with what I said instead of this misrepresentation. I never intented to quote. If I wanted to quote you I would have quoted you instead of putting the phrase in " " tags. When I put something in " " tags I paraphrase it to what the message reads to me. But glad you agree that the reasoning given by you is really weak after you furiously defended him earlier. Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Oh yeah, testing the waters? I think you did that too according to your definition about it, you make short mentions about me in your filter too, and then after Kurumi decides to mindlessly tunnel me for an entire night you jump on it and make a big case. Isn't that testing the waters? What does that even mean? I already answered that part in another post Summary: My case is not about Prplhz defending a townie as people (Zephirdd) pointed out. My case is on him having no reason to defend him and yet he does so furiously only to make a move back and tell people he might be mafia because he has not given an excuse for his lurking. Prplhz had no proper reasoning to defend that guy at all, yet he did although other people agreed that his statemens about nav are utterly pointless or wrong. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Actual important update I voted prplhz and you should do the same | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Posted by risk.nuke on god-knows-when look at his filter [2]lol yes zephirdd, you could say the same about me but for some reason you're not, feel free to enlighten me why? And for me it changes nothing I know what I know. So your point is what? That what I say is true but I can't prove it? Zep, a question. Why do you choose to defend yourself with the your-case-is-bad/inadequate, rather then the I-am-innocent approach. Holy shit. What do you mean I'm not? So me saying it's bad to lynch me warrants a "blue claim", but when I am obviously saying something applies to you it means I'm not using it? Yes I am using that on you and yes, because it is objectively a bad case it MEANS I am innocent - because a good case would mean it is right. It is a bad case -> it is bad reasoning and therefore it cannot prove me guilty. Can't prove me guilty = ~(Guilty) = Innocent. Basic logic. This... this is all so wrong. Holy crap. I'll spend the afternoon with my gf but not without ##vote risk.nuke. You want a case? -> Bad reasoning to push mislynches -> Bad rebuttal for arguments against him -> (Meta) Not showing nearly half of his usual confidence of when he is town; Look at PYP:R first few days for a recent sample(I apologize for using an ongoing game for this but the relevant part won't affect that game) -> Throws accusation at multiple people without backing it up(mid day1, check his filter for it) good afternoon. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
I just have a little detour right now | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Back. I've got a pack of salmon, 500g chicken filet, one red parika, a bunch of green stuff (salad  ), 2 frozen pizzas for next time I'm desperatly starving, two bars of chocolat (a white one and one with hazelnuts :3) and I've still got plenty of rice and noodles in here, so I should be fine for now. Also I finally took a shower because the heating in my parents place seems to be broken, which meant only icecold water for the last 2 and a half day Oh and I played a little D3 so it took a littler longer than I thought About the game: Zeph you apparently think what I posted is a bad case. I read what you posted and it seems to come down to "why is defending someone as townie without proper reason something that makes someone scummy?". I gave reason why it makes someone scummy. First of all because it looks like someone having more information than I have and apparently more information than WBG had as well. Probably more information than Kurumi had as well but that's not 100% clear until he flips. Secondly because saying people are town is the easiest way to get towncred. If you say someone and that someone flips town you're the good guy who told everyone to shut up because it's going to be a mislynch. And that's no problem as long as you give proper reasoning as to why you think the guy is town. Mafias however tend to just post a couple of "townreads" early on because that's way easier to do from a mafia point of view than to make up some bullshit on why someone is mafia. You look good if the guy flips town and that's all you want. But again, the important part here is that prplhz had no reason to defend nav so furiosly and people disagreed with his reasoning for a reason but he still told people that that guy is town. As that seems to be the issue right now for calling my case retarded (well you didn't call it retarded but you seem to think it's wrong & bad) would you mind explaining why the "pattern" I have pointet out is something that should not be considered as scummy? As things stand right now I think I made my point quite clear. I think what prplhz did d1 should be considered scummy as fuck and all you did is say it's wrong, you asked me why calling nav town should be considred scummy, I answered why it's scummy and you haven't answered. So please tell me why my reasoning is wrong or stop calling my case bad telling people that you think I'm trying to get a mislynch based on that "bad" case. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
"why is defending someone as townie without proper reason something that makes someone scummy?". I guess that could be misunderstoof easily because that's german grammar lol. It's meant to be something along the lines of "why is defending someone, saying he's a townie [the guy in question, aka nav] , without proper reason something that makes someone scummy" | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
 First of all, prefiltering I was feeling quite strongly that Zephirdd was scum. The combo of weak accusations, flip flopping and the fake blue claim all added up to him being almost certainly scum. However, upon reading his filter I think that is incorrect. His play has certainly been poor, but I do not think it has been scummy. I don't have any real specifics, but his mannerisms and general demeanor are leading me towards him being town. It feels like he has been shooting from the hip this game, which is why he's getting into trouble. Second, I don't think prplhz is scum. His play so far has been straightforward, and his reasoning has been sound. I think he has a solid defense from toad, and I don't think his play in relation to Navillus was scummy. In fact, for anyone who played in WoF mafia, it was the exact same thing I was saying about Zentor in that game. Mafia generally KNOW what is scummy, and play to avoid that. Mafia priority early on is blending in and looking town, and this game day 0 was really really easy for scum to blend in. Navillus was most definitely not trying to blend in or look town. It should have been obvious to me that navillus was town, but that long post of his was really poor and set me going. Day 1 is very difficult if mafia have plenty of neutral things to discuss. Third, some setup speculation: No cop claim today means no 1-shot cop. No bullet means no vigilante(a 2-shot vig in a mini should be shooting night 1). Neither of those are surprising, as mafia giving us medic+tracker is much more likely. If no IC claims tomorrow during our mayor election(talismania is right that this is when is should be revealed), then we pretty much know for sure that we have a medic+tracker. Also, given the fact that WBG died and not me, I assume we have a medic. Additionally, we also have no roleblocker claim, which means we have a framer. There is an outside chance that mafia simply opted to not roleblock, but that seems unlikely to me. + Show Spoiler [Vote Count] + Keep in mind that prplhz's vote apparently did not count, so the 'voting' was 5-5-1. Framer Sbrubbles Kurumi Zephirdd wherebugsgo sloosh Roleblocker Navillus talismania toadesstern radfield risk.nuke prplhz Godfather Hiropro I think Hiropro is town, and I think mafia voted 2-1 in favor of roleblocker. Vocal opinion on Day 0 seemed like it was going to be a landslide roleblocker victory, and I think mafia would be far more likely to double up on RB than on Framer. Additionally, given the fact that we ended up with framer and not roleblocker, it seems very likely that there are too many fake votes in the roleblocker camp. Prplhz, you mentioned that you felt mafia would likely double up on framer, and not roleblocker. Why? I think we can all agree that a 3-0 from mafia is exceedingly unlikely. So that leaves us with 1 scum in the framer camp, and 2 scum in the roleblocker camp. I am in the roleblocker camp, and I also have 2 town reads in the roleblocker camp, which leaves the situation like this: From my vantage point: Roleblocker Navillus talismania toadesstern radfield risk.nuke prplhz All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum. To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that. Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind. Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 04 2012 04:54 Toadesstern wrote: EBWOP I guess that could be misunderstoof easily because that's german grammar lol. It's meant to be something along the lines of "why is defending someone, saying he's a townie [the guy in question, aka nav] , without proper reason something that makes someone scummy" Prplhz did have a reason. His reasoning was simple. Navillus was doing something that scum would generally NOT do. Scum like to blend in and look townish early on, especially in a game like this where Day 0 contributions are so easy. Navillus did not do this. Not to mention, Prplhz did not play the 'stop guys he's town' card, which you seem to be claiming he did. If anything you should be jumping on prp for VOTING for navillus after defending him. He actually voted for navillus before you did....  | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
If you want to show you're voting for someone, just write your votes in this thread, but don't put them in the voting thread. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
@Toadesstern You didn't read Navilus' filter from Resistance 2 did you? Really, just read the 5 first posts and you'll see where I'm coming from with the whole Navilus deal. Here you go. I don't expect you to come around (at least not on your own) but I'm going to try to make it hard for you not to. Also, I'm not going to respond to your response 'cause I wouldn't achieve anything by it and I don't want to text wall this place up. Most of it is how you disagree with me and the stuff that I do and trying a little too hard to interpret it as scummy instead of keeping a neutral POV. It's really that simple and it never required a text wall from either of us to begin with. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:30 Radfield wrote: Oh yeah, no one should be voting yet. We've got our lynch lock on. If you want to show you're voting for someone, just write your votes in this thread, but don't put them in the voting thread. why are you alive | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:31 prplhz wrote: Funny how Kurumi wants to lynch me because I didn't care about the lynch and Toadesstern wants to lynch me because I argued too furiously about it. @Toadesstern You didn't read Navilus' filter from Resistance 2 did you? Really, just read the 5 first posts and you'll see where I'm coming from with the whole Navilus deal. Here you go. I don't expect you to come around (at least not on your own) but I'm going to try to make it hard for you not to. Also, I'm not going to respond to your response 'cause I wouldn't achieve anything by it and I don't want to text wall this place up. Most of it is how you disagree with me and the stuff that I do and trying a little too hard to interpret it as scummy instead of keeping a neutral POV. It's really that simple and it never required a text wall from either of us to begin with. since you've brought no cases with you like you said you're going to, how are things in scum qt? happy with the results so far? no? you honestly though wbg is blue? funny | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Do you think we have a medic? If we have a medic, mafia know it. It's fairly obvious that I would be the target of any potential medic protection. Hence, mafia do not shoot me. Exact same thing happened in I'm a Cop you Idiot. I was fairly obviously town, we had a medic, so mafia shot bugs instead of me. And just like then, I'm thrilled it happened because it means I don't have to worry about bugs anymore. This is exactly why I wanted a medic by the way I assume you are insinuating I am scum because I survived N1. Last game I died Night 1 was Mafia XLVII, 6 town games ago. However I've died 3 other times N2 since then. My previous N1 death before that was all the way back at XXII. I don't really die N1 that much anymore, because medics and mafia know me. I mainly die/take hits on Night 2. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 04 2012 01:57 Kurumi wrote: ##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ ZZZZZ CMVBW HPUWK SWBSQ MUNRS KVNSU WBDFH UWMTR VLUPF HUBHV AAVRI BVLJM GGARH OFUWC GFLVN CDUIR KDVNP SDAXO DUAIJ TQALV XOHAW GXGCQ LRBUD RNVUJ DQUES GOTAI CLMJS XCVPT LIQAB PRHAD XELUF HJSJU KKTJV BGTUF KJLOH XRQDO SJLSA MWDHN GBGUH FKPAE FTEEO NTLQL BGNEA UVTIX FQQUV ASWFZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message xR2012Ky "blalblablallblablbla there's a medic!!!!11" lekarz moja dupa cholero | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
It would really work a lot better if you had the patience to wait until I was clearly not going to do what you though I needed to do if I was town. If I'm town and I make a case now you'll just say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!" while if I'm scum you'll say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!". You can only achieve something by actually being quiet for just one moment and then see if I do what I promised like townies would be prone to do or if I get lazy like scum would be prone to do. Mafia is like quantum physics; you can't prod shit without also changing it and possibly rendering it completely useless. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:45 prplhz wrote: Really Kurumi, you're just spamming the thread by now. I never promised any cases within a couple of hours. I have suspicions but I intend to see this day through before posting anything substantial. I might do it sooner though. It would really work a lot better if you had the patience to wait until I was clearly not going to do what you though I needed to do if I was town. If I'm town and I make a case now you'll just say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!" while if I'm scum you'll say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!". You can only achieve something by actually being quiet for just one moment and then see if I do what I promised like townies would be prone to do or if I get lazy like scum would be prone to do. Mafia is like quantum physics; you can't prod shit without also changing it and possibly rendering it completely useless. wait you're saying that you might or might not be town what | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Also I'd like to know why you preferred a potential vigilante killing me over risk.nuke last night, and what changed your opinion today. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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