EPTMagic: The Gathering Mini Mafia
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No but seriously I'd say it's generally advice, I'm not sure that I agree on the DT advice but then if all the other stuff is him actually trying to help that probably is too and I'd defer to his judgement on that over my own. | ||
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Next ##Unvote ##Vote: Mattchew As far as I can tell he's just posting with flavor text from mtg cards, if that continues I don't really care if he's scum or town it makes him impossible to read, doesn't let him contribute, and makes for a really shitty atmosphere. Mattchew stop it. On N_T yes VE and WBG I'd say he's using pretty bad method of scumhunting/analysis and his vote is for a dumb reason, but that doesn't make him scum and aside from clear-cut examples of someone being useless or disruptive (such as restricting their posts to text from a card game) it's a bad idea to lynch someone for bad play, in my experience it's rarely a scumtell and depending on how they're playing badly it can be more of a town tell. Tunkeg you asked a bunch of questions earlier, most of them were ignored, was there any point to them? Why don't you care that people didn't answer you/why aren't you following up? Also why post that list, if you have scum reads why aren't you just pressuring them instead of telling them, and how does telling everyone your town-reads do anything but let scum know who you think is townie and so light them up as targets? Holy spam batman! NT scum or town please stop with multiple one or two line posts in a row, it's distracting and makes the thread harder to read through, consolidate. | ||
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Mattchew see what you just did there is actually the opposite of what I was saying, I'm serious if you're town there is no possible way what you're doing can help. Froggy the difference is that bad play has to do with someone as a player and how experienced they are, it's not something you can expect someone to instantly switch of or change just because it's not exactly how you want them to do. Holding yourself to a stupid and disruptive post restriction on the other hand is something that not only can you instantly stop doing, it's something I would expect you to not do without being told. It also has a key difference in that bad play is very much readable, often easier to read in fact than good play, posting only text written by other people for a game on the other hand is as close to impossible to get reads from as I can think of. That is the big difference. VE why would you think 2 families? I don't think I've ever played a mini on TL, is there a standard number of scum that's not 4? And are multiple family games common? | ||
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*switch off or change* | ||
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On May 22 2012 10:24 EchelonTee wrote: Of those three I would most support Acid dying, just chiming in he is saying 1. don't miss these things said in the past 2. don't ignore the fact that these comments were useless reading comprehension this reminds me of when people wanted to kill fourface for "trolling" I'm not saying he's town, but he's not autoscum for doing that, and ur either bad town or scum for talking like that. Well here's the funny thing ET, I actually read those differently, I thought the don't dismiss what appears useless thing was referring to his posts and that they appear useless but have actual reads or something. Now that you've said that I see that your interpretation is also reasonable but you know what, I really don't want to have to go through his posts like a freaking reading comp test when there is absolutely no reason they need to be like this, we shouldn't need to argue over what someone's posts mean or constantly have to ask them to clarify because they refuse to give up a stupid and annoying posting style to be clear I don't think that this means that he's definitely scum, he may not even be my biggest scum read but as long as he's playing anti-town for a very easily fixable reason I don't really care. | ||
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Beyond that WBG is suspicious to me, his posts are just not particularly contributory, his only real substance is his attack on NT who really was just the easy person to accuse at that point, after that there are just some questions and pointless discussion, no real reads or pushing people even as he comments on the lurking. | ||
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I didn't really intend on wasting my vote on Mattchew anyway, even as annoying as he is I almost always want to vote to hit scum not just for policy or because someone's playstyle is anti-town, and his posts have been clearer and more explicit which helps, but Mattchew please continue to make your reads explicit as it's impossible to get reads on you based on post-content or behavior and if I can't get a read I'm going to consider it a scum-read. So at this point it looks like it's between NT and MJ, I don't love these options but MJ is an okay lynch and NT I have a semi-strong town read on so ##Vote Mouldy Jeb On him I don't have much because there's not much to see, he lurked and now he has a decent number of posts but almost none of them say anything, he's lurky and now that there's a serious wagon on him he's seemed to have resigned himself to getting lynched with no anger, scumhunting of others, or even really attempts to convince us not to. NT has seemed aggressive but it frankly seems more town than scum and while there's been bad logic and bad cases those are the types of arguments some people make whether they're town or scum, and usually they're louder and more open with them as town so that definitely isn't a scumtell to me, I don't know of anyone that as town makes good cases/arguments then decides to use worse ones as scum. | ||
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To VE I haven't looked for the post shift out of NT that you're saying is there, I'm gonna go check for it but I didn't notice anything like that on my first read-through, I will be looking hard at WBG for tomorrow as I thought he was scummish yesterday (irl) | ||
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On May 23 2012 06:42 HiroPro wrote: Jeb looks to have left the thread. He's a scummy quitter. If you honestly think he's town, then lololol. And why do you think he's scum, but don't want to vote for him, VE? And what the heck is VCA. Vote count analysis And VE I see what you're saying and it is possible to respond like that as town but in my experience just giving up with no unhappiness or anything about getting lynched and no real attempts to stop the lynch or push someone else is not something townies do often, as scum it's easy to get oneself thinking "oh they got me, there's no way I can move this wagon because I'm scum and they know it" As town you know that you're town and usually would try to show others. Also while I still think NT is probably town, rereading him and looking at recent posts one unsettling trend is his constantly talking about his own meta and how he's matching it, I haven't seen many town who pay so much attention to their own meta, usually as town one would just think I'm playing town, it's gonna match my town meta. Scum have to pay more attention because their behavior is going to change and they have to make an effort to keep it as much the same as they can. Frankly once it's clear that he's paying so much attention to his meta, meta arguments that would point to him being town are pretty much useless since he's obviously making a real effort to keep with his town meta. | ||
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On May 23 2012 06:57 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah man, but here's the conundrum - OTHERS have been citing his meta as evidence if his towniness, and FIRST actually. So is he just parroting what others have said as a new town trying to show up who he perceives as a threat, or is he new scum literally telling us he's scum? This is the information I was trying to go over with Bugs last night which he's completely ignored. So is that your opinion then, that he's probably town and just intimidated into defensiveness? Well I can't say for sure, I'd say my read's still town on him but that was based on other stuff, I really only just noticed this part. It is something that I generally do view as scummy, and has pushed him down in my reads but this one aspect of his play isn't enough to make me think he's scum by itself. If he is town I wouldn't say that I'd identify this as "parroting what others have said as a new town" he doesn't seem like the type to do that, he seems to have a very distinctive and personal posting style with enough games done that I really wouldn't think he's a complete newbie just parroting others. If he's town I'd say this more makes sense as part of his posting style, it's certainly conceivable to me that someone could in general get the idea that meta is really important and get so focused on it as to bring it in on themselves even as town, especially after others use it to call them town so that's what I'd say it probably is if he's town. Or he could be scum and just worried about his meta. Right now I'll say I still think he's town but I still do need to check for that change you pointed to. | ||
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1. People need to be more active, way too many people are lurking right now and it's gonna make it easy for scum to hide among the lurkers, if people continue to lurk like they are we're going to need to take some of them out, on a related note 2. Vigis if they choose to shoot tonight (and from the start I would probably advise against that) should shoot into the lurker pool, it has a decent to good chance of hitting scum as I'm willing to bet at least a couple of them are hiding among the lurkers and I would much prefer vigs shooting lurkers to them trying to make big plays by unilaterally deciding that someone really active that a bunch of people have town reads on must be godfather and it's their job to stop them | ||
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On May 24 2012 02:24 Mattchew wrote: The wizard's spellbook was full of burning questions. Why Mostly because of how aggressive and forward he was with his reads and who he wanted to lynch at the beginning of the game. That usually is a town trait and looking to his posting later on he continues with his aggressive play and reads without seeming too random or inconsistent which scum usually fall into when they play like this. In addition I just haven't seen much in his posts that seems too scum* to me, most of the cases on him seem to be for bad cases or poor logic and one of the things that I am most sure of in mafia is that using poor logic is absolutely not a scum-tell unless you can show that they should be playing differently, (basically unless WBG or VE start making terrible cases it's not a scum-tell) and given how vocal he is and how much pressure is on him I would expect to see much more things that actually make me think scum-agenda from him if he were scum. *There is one rather important caveat here, while rereading him I noticed that aside from his focus on his own meta that I've already commented on he also just gets very defensive overall which makes me less sure of him being townie than I would have been, this is a reservation but not enough to throw away my overall read. Also VE I did not see the change in play that you were pointing to with him, he seems to be playing "the jester" just as much now as he had been before. So Mattchew I answered your question, now I have one for you, you posted your reads on everyone (which btw was very helpful and thank you for that) but I'm particularly curious about your reads on WBG and VE, you say you think they're both town because you don't think they would "play this way as scum" but you also would change that opinion if they live too long. First I'd like you just to explain a little more specifically what way they're playing that makes you think they're town, you seem to think that they're both very good (per you saying that you might change your read just because scum let them live) so how can you be so sure on them. Also as a comment I think it's a bad idea to let your reads be effected so much by what the scum do with them, it seems like it would be a cop-out to actual behavioral analysis, sounds like "I'll just assume they're town, if they get shot obviously we'll see what they are, if not they must be scum for not getting shot". Also please post on each of them separately even if it takes separate posts and more time, it's problematic when people and reads on people start getting grouped together, it lets scum just pair up with and act a bit like a townie without having to worry as long as the person people associate with them is obv-town. Wrote this up a little bit ago and just saw the day-post, I'm gonna look through ET's posts from yesterday, if scum didn't shoot a vet which apparently is the standard here they probably had a specific reason to want to get him out of the way, even if not confirmed townie's thoughts should be useful. On the stuff going on now I like both tunkeg and zealos for scum. And that feels wrong to me, it's unlikely we pick out two scum this early in day two without any connections from others, I had a scummy read on tunkeg from very early but since then nothing's lit up from him, zealos on the other hand has been getting steadily worse, I'm gonna look through both but right now I would prefer zealos. Also Hiro what the hell does that even mean? | ||
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First things first: VE I'm getting worried about your constant attacks on WBG, I'll start by saying that I did think he was scummy at the beginning of the game and right now on a list from town to scum he would fall on the lower half for me, but nothing much has struck me as especially suspicious since the start. What's bad is that your case on him as of right now is entirely based on one post, this could be a problem for a couple of reasons. First is that as I mentioned he's seemed less scummy to me as the game went on and by using one post your focusing the argument on one thing he said a while ago. The second issue is that well individual posts can be strong indicators and what you've pointed out does look suspicious to me (your post has pushed WBG to the scummy side for me) it's still only one post and in what I've seen any town player can make a post that looks weird or scummy just because they were thinking weirdly at the moment or had a disconnect in what they meant and what they said, and I don't think you need to even go that far for that post which doesn't have any big behavioral tells, just some logic you dislike. Because of that I'd be really uncomfortable lynching him based on what you have right now and if there's more you should really bring it up. My biggest issue though is that you seem so positive that if you're not scum he must be scum and that one of you has to die by tomorrow, this is an attitude that could cause a LOT of problems if you are both town, obviously we can't know that but still you should be deciding to make cases based on play alone, anything else could be a big distraction or derailment especially when it's coming from the two big vets in the game. Obviously if you see a bunch of scummy things from WBG don't stop with this but Mattchew's right this is a really bad idea if it's gonna be based on one post and be because you can't imagine both of you are on the same team. Zealos/Tunkeg On Zealos and Tunkeg I'll start by saying Tunkeg is definitely the less likely to be scum and I'm even leaning town at this point. Looking through his filter he doesn't have a huge number of posts but he has stuck to what he said his meta was switching to at the start. Most of his posts are him giving his reads, directly answering people, making a case, or asking questions. These are all townie things to be doing and while I disagree with his play and arguments at points (e.g. his scum-read on ET obviously, (also it would be very weird for scum to shoot someone that one of them called a scum-read on just the day before, it both immediately show them to be wrong and forces them to make a case on someone else as well as wasting any case they've made so far.)) he's doing them in a townie way and at worst he'll stay this open and show himself to be scum, if he doesn't stay so open we notice and lynch him for it, either way I'm happy with him atm. Zealos is a different story. First he lurked a lot day 1 and said almost nothing with what posts he did make, now day 2 he's basically just argued back and forth with hiro which has just cluttered the thread with no possible benefit. This especially because arguing with the person you're accusing (and often with the person accusing you) is not useful, you're obviously not going to change their mind, but instead of moving on and proving his towniness by scumhunting zealos sits around in a useless argument. This means between tunkeg and zealos I obviously would prefer a zealos lynch but... Acid~ My biggest scum-read right now is in fact Acid. Looking through his posts the first thing that jumps out is simply lurking. He has been lurking this entire game, with few posts, even fewer posts of any significant length by him, and even fewer posts in which he is directly addressing or responding to others, something scum love as they get to look like they're making content without ever calling anyone out or putting themselves in a situation where they might get directly called out. In a similar vein what content he has had has been the same in almost every single post, him tunneling acro/marvel. This tunneling began at the start of the game and hasn't abated, this is very big as it means that he gets to look like he's giving reads the whole time while he's really just repeating the same thing, this thing that also hasn't been the main topic of discussion so he never would end up in the spotlight. The biggest issue in this whole tunneling spree is that then at the end of day one the vote is between NT and Mouldy, Acid had expressed that he thought that NT and Marvel were scumbuddies yet when it's clear that a marvel lynch isn't going to happen and when NT is on the table he doesn't even attempt to move the vote. No he sits content to leave his vote somewhere where it can't do ANYTHING, washing him of any possible guilt for a mislynch of either candidate. And looking at his most recent post and one of the only posts of his with any reads that aren't marv/NT (maybe the ONLY post) he goes for literally the easiest reads possible, a couple of lurkers who he gives one line on about them lurking and ONE of WBG/VE because it would be too much work to even decide between that. Finally as if this all wasn't enough, after looking through Acid's stuff and concluding much of this, I also looked at ET's filter as promised and found something very interesting. Our resident just-killed townie's largest (Okay maybe second largest) post was an accusation of the one and only Acid. Now this post was a night-time accusation so it didn't draw much attention (if it had I suspect ET would be alive right now) which meant that if say, he had been correct and accused scum they would feel okay shooting him for it as no one really noticed the accusation. I mean look at why ET was killed, he seemed town and was playing well as far as I can tell and those very probably contributed to his death but vets are viewed very highly in these games, so much that it's surprising that both of them are alive even by day two, it's strange that the scum didn't shoot one of the two people who as scumhunters would presumably be their biggest threats, and one thing that could very much have influenced this choice is if someone else who was playing well also hit on a scum with a good case. Thus - ##Vote Acid~ QED | ||
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Finally as if this all wasn't enough, after looking through Acid's stuff and concluding much of this, I also looked at ET's filter as promised and found something very interesting (I say "much of this" because I did notice some of this from ET's own case, just to give credit where credit is due). | ||
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Let's do this bugs. Not later. Now. If we both live until tomorrow this is happening anyway, so let's just get it over with. I think you're scum. It's your turn to think I'm scum and vote for me. gave me that impression but honestly of course I could have been wrong, that aside I maintain my other issues with the case. I do though see that he hasn't answered some important questions and that does look worse for him, I would say it's becoming more likely that he is scum but I also am much more sure of Acid right now. I will add my own question for Bugs - yesterday (in game) you said you were okay with a vote switch to VE (that's in what he just quoted) do you still think that VE is scum and if so why? Bugs it will look very bad if you don't answer this as well. | ||
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Holy shit this thread went to hell, Mattchew thank you for posting normally to try and fix things (at this point I wasn't even annoyed that you were doing flavor text, but someone needed to get in here and help cut off the VE WBG shitfest so thanks) On the possible lynch candidates now, first ##Vote: Zealos I've been asleep so I haven't been here to do this but know there's at least one more person who would support that lynch per the reasons in my last big post. (also look to that for why I don't think a tunkeg lynch would be good) But what interested me is I think there is definitely a stronger case to be made on Acid than on Zealos or Zelblade, (haven't looked into him yet, give me a little time for that) he made one response, and now no one is voting or pressuring him. So I'd like to ask, Mattchew and Marvel what are your reads on Acid right now? | ||
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## Unvote ##Vote: Zealos | ||
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I didn't respond to your response first because as I think I pointed out somewhere it's rarely useful to get into an argument with the person you're accusing on whether they're scum, you're obviously not going to get them to concede anything and frankly I think VE/WBG and Hiro/Zealos had that ground covered, we didn't need another two players going back and forth on each other. The purpose of this post isn't to make a case on you it's to look at other people and what they say on you, hence the question at the end, I'm curious as to whether the reason your case didn't gain much traction is because you're scum or because better townie's looked and don't think you're scum. (honestly I was leaning to the second one, that's why I asked two people who I think are town, if I thought it was more likely you being scum I would have asked my scum reads because that puts them in an awkward position if you are scum) I said you were a stronger read than the other two in part because I'm slow to give up my reads (probably a problem with my play) and in part because if I had phrased it a lot less confidently it would have had even less of an impact. I'm explaining this all now because I admit I did like your response and it pushed you away from a scum read for me and after making that post I actually looked over you again (I noticed what Marvel said a little bit after making that post actually) and between your response and posts since I felt less scummy on you. So if you're town then Acid I have a question for you, is your biggest scumread still Zelblade? Where would you place Zealos right now? Also what do you think of Froggy? | ||
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Then when he posted all of his reads I agreed with many of them and just the thought process behind them seemed townie. The biggest thing now though is that he stopped with the flavor to try to get VE and WBG to stop fighting. Scum would have no reason to do this, first most scum would (and probably did) just stay out of that fight in general seeing as it was making the thread more confusing and scum-hunting more difficult. They could sit behind the excuse that it was the two vets and they know more or should work it out or something, but Matt has an even better excuse, he could have ignored it or thrown some useless flavor at it and if anyone asked him about it later he could say he did what he could (which because it would just be some flavor text probably wouldn't fix anything) and no one would blame him as most people accepted the flavor at this point. But instead he decides that doing what's best for town is more important and stops with the flavor text, this is big because one he's helping town in the first place by calming the fight and two by stopping the flavor text he's making himself more vulnerable and easier to read, I think if scum took the gambit to post like that at the beginning they wouldn't be willing to give up the advantage of being harder to read so soon at all. | ||
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On the game I'm happy that Zel is back with us, will reserve alignment-judgement until I see more. I still support the zealos lynch, aaaand not much to add at the moment. Oh actually I'm realizing that I could very possibly not be back in time for the lynch because of the bus-ride (lynch is 6 pm EDT correct?) well assuming there's no massive scum-slip in the next 12 hours I'm happy leaving my vote on zealos, so I guess this is just a heads up, don't be surprised if I can't make it back before the lynch. (I think if I can't get to a computer I'll try to at least check things by phone like an hour before the lynch) anyway I only have time for 2 hours sleep as-is so I'm off now. | ||
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I'm caught up on the thread and have a couple things to say, first it's really good the zealo lynch went through obviously, to be totally honest I think I wouldve switched on to hiro because of the risk of killing dt. As to the possibility hiro is scum, I'm just not sure, it seems super risky for scum to put 2 of 4 up at risk over a gambit like this, and I don't know why they would choose to get hiro involved when he went 1v1 with zealos as obviously one of them was gonna go down after that, it would seem better if 1 scum dies no matter what for them to do what it looked like, make a desperation claim to take out a townie. On the general game state. Calm. The fuck. Down. We are 2 days in and we've already lynched scum, in no possible world is this a bad situation for town, yes people have argued and tempers have flared but please cut the shit about people playing terribly or giving up or whatever, we're doing fine and everything seems a ton worse than it is because people are saying it's that bad. Ummm I feel like I had a lot more to say, if I think of it I'll post otherwise day might bring more to mind, sorry I can't really save posts and going over is hard so stuff might come out in bits an pieces as I remember it. | ||
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##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On May 29 2012 09:11 Mattchew wrote: Yeah so, VE is 100% confirmed town, a vet by many peoples standards, pushed WBG's lynch in a pro-town manner (not JUST yelling and screaming but also asking individuals by name to respond to the case) and he would be playing against his win-con to be lying or pushing WBG on purpose if he was town. I think thats enough for me and any townie to vote WBG on I don't know whether I think we should continue with VE's plan atm but I do think we have to acknowledge the, at this point, real possibility that he just screwed up and made a mistake. We're gonna be at lylo tomorrow and if we follow through with what VE said we have to be sure that he knew what he was saying and was pointing everyone in the right direction. | ||
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On May 29 2012 14:14 Nova_Terra wrote: So either froggy or myself die tonight, although at this point I think it will be froggy so that hiro doesn't die. If hiro was a townie he would die and everyone would lynch me and gg, but that won't happen. That doesn't make sense, why would they shoot hiro if he was town, that would show that you're either not DT or got that read wrong but obviously we know you're not scum in that situation because if you were why would you put that shot in, even if this is WIFOM it still would be pretty clear you're not scum because it would be dumb of you to waste a shot on a scummy-looking town and put yourself in danger when you could shoot confirmed town in froggy. I know you said that's why it will likely be froggy but just to be clear that it doesn't make sense for the shot to have a bearing on your or hiro's alignment. | ||
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##Vote HiroPro | ||
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confirmed DT check | ||
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Also of course thank you so much Artanis and Greymist, sorry if the game was not up to the standards you had hoped for. | ||
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