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On May 27 2012 13:43 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 13:34 jaj22 wrote:
If you're going to policy-lynch someone because they're useless and unreadable, why pick Grush over Kenpachi? I can see why some of you might be bitter from LIV, but at least give people the chance to improve.
@Grush: Making posts longer than one line would be a good start.
Also I'm not voting for Sinensis because I can't read him worth a damn.
I am picking grush over kenpachi because kenpachi doesn't respond to criticism with "I'm mafia, lynch me." I have never seen play as bad as grush's. Most of the people in LIV spent the game trying to get grush lynched because he literally refused to play, outside of nonsense 1 liners, throughout most of the game. I don't feel like dealing with it again because I don't like losing.
Lmao this is pretty ironic. I'm not going to ennumerate the times you threw games, but let's just say you have no right to run for mayor on a platform like that.
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On May 27 2012 15:43 Blazinghand wrote:
Please do not state that I post like a retard or a troll half the time. I find this offensive and unproductive to our discussion. It is also inaccurate. I take this game very seriously, and your implication that I do not is troubling. If you continue to insist that my posting is retarded and trolling, I will complain to the host.
Come on BH, he's a newbie. You're acting like a TLMafia brat, threatening to call in the host, which is also unproductive to the discussion. You post gifs and pix of you eating hats all the time, so his reference to your trolling isn't wholly inaccurate lol.
Continuing, do you think grush's posting thus far is scummy? If yes, then how so?
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You're getting over emotional dude, and it's making you look bad.
1. If you're offended, you deserve to be, I agree, but it's starting to look like you're going to build a gigantic, overblown case on him because you got offended. SnB is easy as shit to root out as scum, so I'm not too concerned with him. I'm more so concerned with you, and building a case off of emotion isn't the best plan.
2. No, you didn't post tons of gifs and hats this game. But hey, grush hasn't been a complete anti-town loser this game either. But you want to lynch grush for stuff that he's done in a previous game. Do you see the logical disconnect here?
3. That was a pretty rapid triple post. You're not a scrub so I'm not going to assume that you were actually flustered by my light questioning, but you seem more concerned with proving yourself right and bashing people that you dislike, then actually scum hunting.
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The State of TL Towns
It's no secret that TL Towns have been in a state of disarray. Unfortunately, none of you know my alignment so you will be forced to take this post with a grain of salt, but hopefully you will be able to take my words in and see them as logical.
This game is starting to unfold how many typical games have gone thus far. A small handful of posters come out strong; evenly divided between strong, veteran personalities and newer, eager to play people. Mixed inbetween these people are obviously a few scum, but what inevitably happens is some newer player slips up, and then the hounds come into slay the newbie. Some people argue "don't lynch X, they are town"; others argue "why the f*** are you defending this terrible play". Meanwhile, scum can prod on these easy mislynches and cruise to victory.
This is generally how a mafia game should unfold; however, the issue lately has been that cases have been built solely on stuff like "this guy is fcking bad. he is SCUMMY", instead of analyzing motivations, actions, or agendas. Meanwhile, discussion that happens around the lynches is just downright embaressing. People going around saying "you haven't contributed shit", "you're a dipshit", etc. Often what I see said about other players is something like "Yeah, I don't think Y is scum, but he's an asshole". Because of this, loads of townies are completely unmotivated to post, because why post when people are going to shout at you, calling you a dingus? The reason why scum are allowed to lurk like crazy isn't because we aren't being aggresive enough; it's because we aren't fostering a positive enough attitude.
After reading a lot of newbie games, there are logical disconnects for sure, but one thing stands out that our games have been lacking: they are actually fucking nice to each other. They build cases based off of other people's posts. They consider everyone's view points and don't go all rambo. If you want a breath of fresh air, read a newbie game.
So, what am I actually trying to say with this stupid ass block of text? PLAY NICE. DONT BE EGOTISTICAL. I am not insulting anyone who has already posted; I am more so alarmed at the amount of people who haven't posted. And unless we encourage posting, encourage cases, people aren't going to post shit.
tl;dr - Everyone usually thinks that town's #1 priority is scumhunting. While debatable, IMO the #1 priority is create a stable town atmosphere. To that end, encourage discussion, don't stifle it.
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No BH, I have respect for your play. I thought I made that clear in SoaF when I thought you were a longtime Vet, even though you haven't been playing for that long.
I don't even know why the hell I'm defending SnB this much; then again, I don't know why you are so touchy about this. You have to remember that that modkill happened very recently, so it is fresher in people's mind, especially a newbie.
If you're town, you're going to be a strong asset, so I'm merely trying to diffuse a situation where it looks like you're getting worked up like shit.
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On May 27 2012 17:11 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 16:51 EchelonTee wrote:
You're getting over emotional dude, and it's making you look bad.
1. If you're offended, you deserve to be, I agree, but it's starting to look like you're going to build a gigantic, overblown case on him because you got offended. SnB is easy as shit to root out as scum, so I'm not too concerned with him. I'm more so concerned with you, and building a case off of emotion isn't the best plan.
2. No, you didn't post tons of gifs and hats this game. But hey, grush hasn't been a complete anti-town loser this game either. But you want to lynch grush for stuff that he's done in a previous game. Do you see the logical disconnect here?
3. That was a pretty rapid triple post. You're not a scrub so I'm not going to assume that you were actually flustered by my light questioning, but you seem more concerned with proving yourself right and bashing people that you dislike, then actually scum hunting.
So calling BH a retard is fine and if he's offended, he deserves to be, because he's retarded... right? Or are you just randomly defending some guy's OMGUS because it's against someone who is also running for mayor?
What exactly are you trying to say in this post?
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On May 27 2012 17:09 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 16:51 EchelonTee wrote:
You're getting over emotional dude, and it's making you look bad.
1. If you're offended, you deserve to be, I agree, but it's starting to look like you're going to build a gigantic, overblown case on him because you got offended. SnB is easy as shit to root out as scum, so I'm not too concerned with him. I'm more so concerned with you, and building a case off of emotion isn't the best plan.
I'm not here to lynch SnB. I'm here to lynch Grush because he's worthless. Am I not allowed to put some pressure on SnB? Don't you find his reasoning for his choice to run for a power that's only useful to scum kinda weird?Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 16:51 EchelonTee wrote:
3. That was a pretty rapid triple post. You're not a scrub so I'm not going to assume that you were actually flustered by my light questioning, but you seem more concerned with proving yourself right and bashing people that you dislike, then actually scum hunting.
If you think me triple posting is unusual clearly you're so unfamiliar with my meta that you should just stop talking.
1. Yes.
3. This is what I'm talking about excessive negativity. You say "you don't know wtf you're talking about, so stfu". I am not a bad player. You know this. So don't tell me to stop talking, it's completely unnecessary. If you say this to someone with a weaker backbone, they will just end up resenting you.
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??????????????
Dude, you're the one getting all worked up and mad at me LOL! Me try to pick a fight? Seriously?
I am going to fully, fully enumerate my logic and reasoning for shit right here. After this, I am completely dropping this topic because it is useless to talk about.
1. SnB says you post like a retard.
2. You get offended and post questioning on him in reference to earlier stuff.
3. I agree with your questioning on him, but I don't like how you wanted to call in the host for a retard comment.
4. You ignore what I said about the host thing, and instead focus on the retard part. You falsely think that I consider you to be a retard.
5. I say you are getting worked up, because you focus on the part of my post that you want to focus on. You then post a list of your games to prove that you are not a retard, when I already know you are not a retard.
6. I said that you deserve to be offended by being called a retard. You don't understand my posts, or maybe I was unclear, but you seem to think that I think you're bad.
7. You should care whether or not I, and other players resent you, because the excessive negativity is a reason for TL towns losing lately. I made a post about it on the other page.
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8. The "brat" thing specifically refers for the tendency for players to say things like "if you keep on doing X, I'm calling the host", or "you are playing against wincon, I'm telling the host".
9. This could be construed as a negative insult towards you, but my point in that entire post was to say "make your case built on regular shit, not you being offended+a host insult".
I still don't get how you got so swiftly mad at me. Playing scum is so much easier 
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On May 27 2012 17:19 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 17:13 EchelonTee wrote:On May 27 2012 17:11 Sinensis wrote:On May 27 2012 16:51 EchelonTee wrote:
You're getting over emotional dude, and it's making you look bad.
1. If you're offended, you deserve to be, I agree, but it's starting to look like you're going to build a gigantic, overblown case on him because you got offended. SnB is easy as shit to root out as scum, so I'm not too concerned with him. I'm more so concerned with you, and building a case off of emotion isn't the best plan.
2. No, you didn't post tons of gifs and hats this game. But hey, grush hasn't been a complete anti-town loser this game either. But you want to lynch grush for stuff that he's done in a previous game. Do you see the logical disconnect here?
3. That was a pretty rapid triple post. You're not a scrub so I'm not going to assume that you were actually flustered by my light questioning, but you seem more concerned with proving yourself right and bashing people that you dislike, then actually scum hunting.
So calling BH a retard is fine and if he's offended, he deserves to be, because he's retarded... right? Or are you just randomly defending some guy's OMGUS because it's against someone who is also running for mayor? What exactly are you trying to say in this post? I'm trying to say your post and your reasons suck, BlazingHand's questions for SnB are legitimate, and the only reason I can imagine you having a problem is because BlazingHand is running against you.
I'm going to make this clear, because hinting doesn't seem to be enough in this case.
I AGREE THAT SNB RUNNING FOR ONLY PARDONER IS WEIRD AND IT'S COOL THAT BH WANTED TO ACCUSE HIM.
I didn't want to make it so obvious because being subtle is important, believe it or not. I also said in that post that "HE DESERVES TO BE OFFENDED FOR BEING CALLED A RETARD", because BH IS NOT A RETARD AND I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THIS.
Clear enough?
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I'm done arguing with you BH; it's clear that I have been patronizing in more than one way, but I hope you see the points that I've tried to make. Let's just cool down and reapproach things, ok?
Using the lynch on grush at this point is actually not as bad of an idea as I first thought. D1 lynches are hard as fck, and taking out someone bad isn't a bad plan. However, I can't agree with it for two reasons: 1. grush hasn't proven to be completely anti-town thus far, and 2. in a 30 man game, I think a D1 lynch intended to shoot at scum is possible.
I would rather go for a case that can produce more discussion/controversy (controversial lynches work better towards determining alignment), and a lynch centered around grush would merely be a conversation of "well, is he bad, or BAD?".
Going to play Dota 2. Nighty night.
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On May 27 2012 17:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 17:33 Sinensis wrote:On May 27 2012 17:31 EchelonTee wrote:On May 27 2012 17:19 Sinensis wrote:On May 27 2012 17:13 EchelonTee wrote:On May 27 2012 17:11 Sinensis wrote:On May 27 2012 16:51 EchelonTee wrote:
You're getting over emotional dude, and it's making you look bad.
1. If you're offended, you deserve to be, I agree, but it's starting to look like you're going to build a gigantic, overblown case on him because you got offended. SnB is easy as shit to root out as scum, so I'm not too concerned with him. I'm more so concerned with you, and building a case off of emotion isn't the best plan.
2. No, you didn't post tons of gifs and hats this game. But hey, grush hasn't been a complete anti-town loser this game either. But you want to lynch grush for stuff that he's done in a previous game. Do you see the logical disconnect here?
3. That was a pretty rapid triple post. You're not a scrub so I'm not going to assume that you were actually flustered by my light questioning, but you seem more concerned with proving yourself right and bashing people that you dislike, then actually scum hunting.
So calling BH a retard is fine and if he's offended, he deserves to be, because he's retarded... right? Or are you just randomly defending some guy's OMGUS because it's against someone who is also running for mayor? What exactly are you trying to say in this post? I'm trying to say your post and your reasons suck, BlazingHand's questions for SnB are legitimate, and the only reason I can imagine you having a problem is because BlazingHand is running against you. I'm going to make this clear, because hinting doesn't seem to be enough in this case. I AGREE THAT SNB RUNNING FOR ONLY PARDONER IS WEIRD AND IT'S COOL THAT BH WANTED TO ACCUSE HIM. I didn't want to make it so obvious because being subtle is important, believe it or not. I also said in that post that "HE DESERVES TO BE OFFENDED FOR BEING CALLED A RETARD", because BH IS NOT A RETARD AND I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THIS. Clear enough? Well it sounds like you're getting emotional so I don't know if I can trust anything you've said. You'll probably be okay with this because it's how you're playing. Honestly it's probably better just to ignore ET on this issue. I don't think communicating with him about it will lead to anything and it will likely just clog up the thread, which isn't good for town.
+1
Role Call! Where are MZ, Alderan, Zealos, and Cwave? Post pls ^^
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People read this if you haven't please. It's not content heavy, more so a plea for people to play nice and, you know, post more.
Forumite, it's fine.
My opinion on that is that it's candidate dependent, aka if Pardoner's support, or Pardoner himself seems scummy, lynch away. It shouldn't be an autolynch, because it's not as anti-town as say, a suicide vigilante or a CPR doctor. More interesting though, is that in elections, often one of the top3 vote receivers is scum. I remember in TL Mafia L, where Mayor=BC(town), Pardoner=BM(scum). So it's something to consider.
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On May 27 2012 17:51 Blazinghand wrote:
I was also considering intentionally voting someone into second place in order to lynch them. That could be dangerously difficult to coordinate, though.
Hm......... right, put grush (or someone else) into 2nd place, then lynch them.
There are very, very few scenarios where a townie holding the pardoner ability is useful. The only ones I can think of are 1. someone is DT and their green check is going to be lynched, and 2. the pardoner is someone like Foolishness, and they are sure they are right vs. the town. However, even those scenarios are not good enough, because 1. Framers 2. Could be wrong lol.
Hm..... the secondary candidate would be someone with who looks scummy, so no one should randomly vote them on the basis of "I thought they were more townie than the mayor canidate"! If scum wanted to push them into the mayor position, then they would be outting their team. I could imagine:
MAYOR - 18 votes
SECOND - 6 votes
UNACCOUNTED - 6 votes
That is actually feasible, if there is enough consensus that someone is super townie. Thoughts? Specifically, is pardoner ever good from a town perspective, and would you follow a plan like this?
Going for real now.
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RE: Mayoral Candidates
At this point in time, I would most support Mr. Wiggles as a vote (if not voting for myself). The fact that he states he will not use the pardoner power in 99% of scenarios, and his general tone is good. Also, Wiggles is a strong player who I feel has had the misfortune of being caught in scenarios where town grew incredibly complacent and stagnant (jubjub, liar), and he wasn't able to showcase his ability. If he is elected, it will force him to be more active, and thus more easily show his alignment/help town if he's on our side.
I still think that I am the best mayoral candidate because I'm willing to deal with issues head on, but at the same time try (for the most part) to recognize when I am the one being an egotistical dick. So yeah, ET for Earth Leader.
RE: Pardoner
Since Greymist has already answered that the pardoner can indeed nullify the D1 lynch, I suppose that means that that particular plan is down the tubes. In that case, it would be best if both the pardoner and the mayor were townie.
Another scenario that I considered if scum manage to get the pardoner position; if the pardoner is already under a lot of scrutiny (aka next in line to be lynched/vigged), but some other random townie is up for the lynch, then the pardoner could just use their power then. This would prompt town to be "sure" that said townie should be killed along with the pardoner, leading to 2 days of lynches w/o discussion, and only one scum killed from it.
I still personally think that the extra vote is more important, but it stands that we can't let the pardoner role get away that easily.
RE: grush
I'll admit that grush indeed looks quite unreadable and uncooperative, but his play reminds me of MrZentor, a player who I feel I successfully read as town a few times, while everyone saw his demeanor as undeniably scummy. I might be in a skewed position (as I have played scum for quite a few of my past games), but when I was mislynching players like MrZentor, I often felt that if I had been in a town position, there were a number of heuristics that showed that the player was in fact townie.
After all, it takes many posts to determine if someone is town, but often just 1 or a few posts to see if someone is scum. If he posts a decent amount, perhaps we'll be able to see something either green or red. Emphasis on perhaps. Grush, I propose that you merely remain as active as possible starting now; this is a call for you to improve your game. You won't get many second chances, so make this one count.
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On May 27 2012 19:37 Hyaach wrote:
is voting for mayor mandatory?
because i know of no meta and play styles. I was thinking of not voting anyone into power.
Voting is mandatory. You could "dump" your vote by voting yourself, but that is not the best idea. Your vote is an indication of who you think is townie, and therefore sheds some light on your own alignment.
Making town reads is way easier than making scum reads, so make an informed decision later on. You don't have to base it off of meta/play style (some even think that meta is far less important than it is perceived). Read guides and stuff if you're unsure; you can find them stickied in the forum. The only way you can go wrong is if you don't logically explain why you vote the way you do.
If you're not new and I sound patronizing as fck, I apologize.
I'm sleeping. Euro's, please pick up where we left off.
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Aside: Who came up with this RE: thing again? I really like it. Was it Jitsu?
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Skimmed the thread.
If no scum went for/are going for election, then town is in a great position. Think TL Mafia L; sure there were bodyguards, and sure BM ended up being pardoner, but he was put in office by Foolishness, while BC and Protactinium were the top 3 vote getters. The amount of control they held because they all ran for office meant that scum was completely scared of shooting any of them, even though (if I recall) Foolishness didn't even have protection until N3 or something.
The reason why I mention TL L is that Toad's mason claim reminds me of that game. The reason why mason claiming (by BC) was a good idea because of 1. multiple masons and 2. bodyguards. I'm going to assume there aren't tons of masons in the game atm as otherwise a few of them would've jumped on Toad's claim. And 2 doesn't apply here obviously; BC's claim (and subsequent installment as mayor) was good because it put him in a position of safety while he could use his mason power to prove his innocence to others, and form a town circle. Since Toad has no protection, if he is actually town mason then he will be on docket to be gunned down. We don't know if we have medics. We might even only have a jailer, who would role block him (I think).
Toad, does Mason choose a target at night, or at the start of day or something like that? Can you be RB'd?
Does jailer protect from 1KP, or all KP?
I fail to see why you claimed in this case, Toad. If you are actually mason, this increases the likelihood that you will be shot. If you are scum, then you unnecessarily brought in expectations on you to do this or that. If mason targets at night, you could even claim "RB'd". TBH this reminds me of your vet claim; an unneeded, poorly thought out claim that outted you as scum. In this case though, a mason is a strange role.
The other thing is; the only reason why you want the election is 1. to lynch "scum" and 2. because you're townie. Can't you just make a case on someone (which you have at this point) and lynch them that way? If everyone disagrees with you (surprisingly...), then perhaps your case is bad, but you would like the mayoral power to just lynch whoever the hell you want. I don't see how this is supposed to convince us of your towniness.
Overall, your claim/mayorship have successfully put the thread into minor confusion. I could easily see you doing this from an anti-town perspective, but I'll re-read a few times before making a judgement.
I'm also pretty surprised that no one sheeped Toad's case. Strange.
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RE: Toad's case
On May 28 2012 06:43 Toadesstern wrote:ok done reading. I think ET is the most likely to flip mafia for these reasons: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [#1] +On May 27 2012 11:55 EchelonTee wrote:
I'm running for Mayor.
Why?
Because I'm never suspicious as scum, and always suspicious as town. I would never in a million years run for mayor if I was scum. You might say "Oh, he's trying to WIFOM; this is him actually being scum, running for this shiz". I would say that's slightly logical, but let's be reasonable; I could easily destroy all of you without needing to be mayor, if I was scum. Am I running off of a high from Liar Game Mafia, where I crushed a plethora of legendary scumhunters? You bet it.
Another point to notice; the mayor and pardoner do not get bodyguards. Usually, the purpose of the mayoral election is not so much to control the lynch, but to protect your strongest scum hunters. Since there are no bodyguards, putting someone like [insert vet here] into that spot is just asking for them to be shot up, if they aren't scum that is. What I will do as mayor is be open and forthright, not do a lone wolf lynch. If it turns out that I look way too fcking townie, then I'll get shot by scum, and that's NBD; I'll have done enough by being denying scum the initial lynch, and taking a bullet for better townies.
Last thing; I never ignore the newbies. You'll see a bunch of people run for mayor who will be like "I'm bad as scum, good as town, so I'll lynch right and this will all be good kk", but only I will actually consider cases put forth by newbies and actually judge if they have merit. While I might not be the best at hard scumhunting, compared to other players in this game, I pride myself at being able to separate "bad townies" from "newbie scum". Some examples of that are FourFace in TL Mafia LI and gumshoe in Surprisingly Normal VII. Tons of people were calling for vig shots, lynches, etc. and I just said STFU, they are townies. Let's focus.
In summary, since the mayoral election does not confer protection, it is more optimal to elect someone who is open, aggressive, and tranaparent, but not necessarily the strongest town player. Therefore, I think I should be mayor. I'll do a standard scumhunt (build a case) to determine the initial lynch. You can never lynch me. If am am townie I am suspicious therefore I am a townie! If I am a mafia I am not suspicious, therefore you don't lynch me. If I am suspicious because I'm not suspicious I'm actually suspicious according to my logic, therefore you can't lynch me. Funny thing is I once said the exact same thing but it was d1 and I was semi-trolling. However, he doesn't seem like a troll. #2 reads as: If I lynch a townie I'm sorry but I'm not accountable because I did what the majority wanted me to do! #3: That's really manipulative and really, is he the only one that will look at the newbie cases? He makes it sound like there's some people ignoring cases because they're nooby-cases. People ignore cases because they're along the lines of "he is bad, therefore he has to be mafia" which is just wrong. Also I don't need some minister for newbies who tells me what case has some merits and which has not. + Show Spoiler [#2] +On May 27 2012 12:14 EchelonTee wrote:
A note: I will be slightly less active in this game then I have been in other town games I've played. This doesn't mean lurking at the standard I set in JubJub or Liar, but I won't be nearly as active as I was in MTG Mafia. I feel that it did not work the greatest in that game (game not finished, will not discuss further). Sure, this is probably a notch against me to be mayor, but I thought I would just put it out there.
If you prefer an active mayor, vote for VE. I hear he's easy to read. What would be the reasoning for a townie to post something like that. I don't need someone to post some excuses some hours into the game. If you're away for a day or something, awesome, post that because we want to know about that game. If you want to change your style in general post that before the game started like I did in C9++ #2 because that post looks so bad. It's overtransparent when he really should now that it's looking fishy for the excuse-part. So the point of that post is to be transparent when noone cares about something like that. Why would he want to be that transparent. I don't need him to tell me when he's going to the toilet either. + Show Spoiler [#3] +On May 27 2012 12:30 EchelonTee wrote:
You're smart to consider the scenarios, which bodes well for this game.
Consider that the pardoner will have some amount of town-cred, to be elected in the first place. To save their scummy lynch mate, they would have to out themselves. Not a very good play, unless the person they are saving is a stronger PR role than themself. I actually kind of wonder how Pardoner is a good role at all, to be perfectly honest.
The more dangerous role is the +1 vote that the mayor has. If a scum gets voted as mayor, they could potentially live til LYLO, which would be instant GG. It is extremely vital that a townie gets voted to mayor, and slightly less so important who is pardoner. Is what I consider being manipulative #2: Is fearmongering. Come on... A mayor with bodyguards never makes it into LYLO because he's lynched or killed well before that. Just think about your last election-based game (unless it's holyroman, caller games don't count) and think about how long the mayor lasted. And he's scared about a mayor without bodyguards lasting until LYLO? + Show Spoiler [#4] +On May 27 2012 16:36 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 15:43 Blazinghand wrote:
Please do not state that I post like a retard or a troll half the time. I find this offensive and unproductive to our discussion. It is also inaccurate. I take this game very seriously, and your implication that I do not is troubling. If you continue to insist that my posting is retarded and trolling, I will complain to the host. Come on BH, he's a newbie. You're acting like a TLMafia brat, threatening to call in the host, which is also unproductive to the discussion. You post gifs and pix of you eating hats all the time, so his reference to your trolling isn't wholly inaccurate lol. Continuing, do you think grush's posting thus far is scummy? If yes, then how so? On May 27 2012 15:43 Blazinghand wrote:Please do not state that I post like a retard or a troll half the time. I find this offensive and unproductive to our discussion. It is also inaccurate. I take this game very seriously, and your implication that I do not is troubling. If you continue to insist that my posting is retarded and trolling, I will complain to the host. So your initial reasoning for why you wanted the role, as you wrote it, was: Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 13:46 strongandbig wrote:
So, why am I running for vice leader/pardoner? Well, last game I played was my first time being a blue role, and it was really fun; I want to try something new this game as well. But now it's Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 15:32 strongandbig wrote:
And the question "why are you trying to get a power that's almost useless for town but super useful for scum" has a retardedly obvious answer, doesn't it? So scum can't have that power? Were you lying then or are you lying now? Why is he quoting that part but completly ignoring the rest? BH may or may not have valid points, that's up to you but those points are ACTUALLY USEFUL and something to talk about. Yet he picks the only part of the post that is completly useless to town and talks about that and again, it's really easy to talk about issues like that for both alignments. + Show Spoiler [#5] +On May 27 2012 17:06 EchelonTee wrote:
The State of TL Towns
It's no secret that TL Towns have been in a state of disarray. Unfortunately, none of you know my alignment so you will be forced to take this post with a grain of salt, but hopefully you will be able to take my words in and see them as logical.
This game is starting to unfold how many typical games have gone thus far. A small handful of posters come out strong; evenly divided between strong, veteran personalities and newer, eager to play people. Mixed inbetween these people are obviously a few scum, but what inevitably happens is some newer player slips up, and then the hounds come into slay the newbie. Some people argue "don't lynch X, they are town"; others argue "why the f*** are you defending this terrible play". Meanwhile, scum can prod on these easy mislynches and cruise to victory.
This is generally how a mafia game should unfold; however, the issue lately has been that cases have been built solely on stuff like "this guy is fcking bad. he is SCUMMY", instead of analyzing motivations, actions, or agendas. Meanwhile, discussion that happens around the lynches is just downright embaressing. People going around saying "you haven't contributed shit", "you're a dipshit", etc. Often what I see said about other players is something like "Yeah, I don't think Y is scum, but he's an asshole". Because of this, loads of townies are completely unmotivated to post, because why post when people are going to shout at you, calling you a dingus? The reason why scum are allowed to lurk like crazy isn't because we aren't being aggresive enough; it's because we aren't fostering a positive enough attitude.
After reading a lot of newbie games, there are logical disconnects for sure, but one thing stands out that our games have been lacking: they are actually fucking nice to each other. They build cases based off of other people's posts. They consider everyone's view points and don't go all rambo. If you want a breath of fresh air, read a newbie game.
So, what am I actually trying to say with this stupid ass block of text? PLAY NICE. DONT BE EGOTISTICAL. I am not insulting anyone who has already posted; I am more so alarmed at the amount of people who haven't posted. And unless we encourage posting, encourage cases, people aren't going to post shit.
tl;dr - Everyone usually thinks that town's #1 priority is scumhunting. While debatable, IMO the #1 priority is create a stable town atmosphere. To that end, encourage discussion, don't stifle it.I don't by it that he's THAT frightned about the town atmosphere. That's again so easy to post from a mafia point of view and it looks like you are contributing a lot while it's so easy to do. Yeah he might have a point but he focuses on that A LOT. There's basicly nothing else in his filter + Show Spoiler [#6] +On May 27 2012 17:39 EchelonTee wrote:
I'm done arguing with you BH; it's clear that I have been patronizing in more than one way, but I hope you see the points that I've tried to make. Let's just cool down and reapproach things, ok?
Using the lynch on grush at this point is actually not as bad of an idea as I first thought. D1 lynches are hard as fck, and taking out someone bad isn't a bad plan. However, I can't agree with it for two reasons: 1. grush hasn't proven to be completely anti-town thus far, and 2. in a 30 man game, I think a D1 lynch intended to shoot at scum is possible.
I would rather go for a case that can produce more discussion/controversy (controversial lynches work better towards determining alignment), and a lynch centered around grush would merely be a conversation of "well, is he bad, or BAD?".
Going to play Dota 2. Nighty night. So policy lynching isn't bad because it's so hard to lynch mafia d1 but we should lynch mafia d1 because we have a good chance to lynch mafia d1 in his opinions? + Show Spoiler [#7] +On May 27 2012 17:50 EchelonTee wrote:People read this if you haven't please. It's not content heavy, more so a plea for people to play nice and, you know, post more. Forumite, it's fine. My opinion on that is that it's candidate dependent, aka if Pardoner's support, or Pardoner himself seems scummy, lynch away. It shouldn't be an autolynch, because it's not as anti-town as say, a suicide vigilante or a CPR doctor. More interesting though, is that in elections, often one of the top3 vote receivers is scum. I remember in TL Mafia L, where Mayor=BC(town), Pardoner=BM(scum). So it's something to consider. I totally disagree. These elections are a joke and only the mayor one is of any use if you really think you are good d1 as townie. There's no bodyguards in this election so comparing them to other games really sucks in general. The statement "withing top3 votegetters there's usually a mafia" is totally out of place considering the no-BG thing and people probaby expect the elected roles to die early on (not d1 all the time but early on in general). + Show Spoiler [#8] +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336250¤tpage=16#306 And I have again that feeling that he's trying to look helpful rather than being helpful. That post is so over the top.
I'd give him a decent chance to flip mafia right now but I'd like to see him posting more because I'm not sure if he's really the best case yet but I find it troublesome that people consider him a good option right now for nothing other than his "I care about noobs"-posts.
I love breaking down PBPA because it's often always skewed to seeing things from one perspective, and when you show the town perspective, the case completely breaks down. Of even if you simply ask "how does X actually make me scummy", you find that there's nothing.
1. My point in saying the suspicious thing is to say why I would not run for mayor if I was scum, which is completely true. I honestly don't understand how I do not get figured out as scum, because there are obvious heuristics to my scum play; in this case, running for a mayor election with no protection is useless and attention grabbing for scum, and I would simply not do it. For town, it's good for the discussion, and to prove towniness. As mayor, I would be fully accountable to the lynch. I don't see how I shied away from accountability here. I said the newbie thing because it's true; yall are mean to newbies / completely ignore them. It's why I was able to stomp my first 5 games; everyone seriously underesstimated me because I was a noob. Don't ignore the newbies b/c 1. they can help or 2. they can be scum.
Of these, only the 2nd point actually indicates how I could be scummy, but it's simply not true; by running for mayor, I introduce accountability.
2.What motivation do I have for posting that if I'm scum? I could just simply lurk without saying anything. I learned that in my first game (as scum); just fcking lurk and say nothing and no one will notice. That post is, at worse, null.
3.The last election game I played, the mayor never died. He wasn't even close to dying, because town control was so good. The +1 vote is important; I've seen politician/floridian roles win games before. Not sure how me talking about the power of the mayor role makes me scummy; if the election is completely unimportant, then we should just follow kita's route; elect someone not even running.
4.I quoted that part because I was concerned (in a dickish, patronizing way) that BH was getting offended at that point. I didn't quote the rest because I agreed with the strange SnB turn, and wanted to wait for SnB to respond. I already posted this in thread.
5.I posted this b/c this is the first town game I've had in a while, and as scum I've sadly watch my friends and comrades beat the shit out of each other for no reason. Frankly, I'm tired of it. If I was scum, I wouldn't have posted that because I like winning. There is simply no reason for me to post that. Perhaps I'm being cocky (well, I did beat Foolishness, Syllo, etc etc recently...), but if I was scum, I could have posted ANYTHING ELSE and looked constructive, easily. That post isn't a scum tell at all; at worst it's null.
6.I said policy lynching isn't BAD bad, but I'd prefer not to because I think scum can be lynched. ....Yeah. How is that scummy?
7.So you disagree with my sentinment, and think my top3 comment is out of place. How does that make me scummy?
8. How does that make me scummy?
That wasn't nearly as fun as I thought it would be I would format this post better for readability, but tbh your case is so bad LOL
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Kenpachi, who do you think is scum?
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EPT
