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On May 15 2012 08:46 PaqMan wrote:
So all these plans that've popped up revolve around a mass roleclaim? Or is it just intended for the CPR and Janitor?
Afaik only CPR, janitor and possibly RB.
hi guys.
I think the "1.CPR 2.Janitor 3.CPR/Janitor rng" idea from Qatol to be the best one right now. Leaves spots 4+ for people to choose.
Anyhow, what do you guys think about the dayvig+copycat thing? Imagine, for instance, that the number 1 actually picks CPR and mafia is aware, and they picked both dayvig and copycat.
Instant CPR for them, right? That said, I think town should really consider picking either dayvig or copycat when you find yourself on the first half of the draft.
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Paqman, the plans being discussed all revolve around setting the roles to be picked by the top three or so draft winners. In effect, they are pre-claiming the roles that those three people will get.
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On May 15 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Anyhow, what do you guys think about the dayvig+copycat thing? Imagine, for instance, that the number 1 actually picks CPR and mafia is aware, and they picked both dayvig and copycat.
Instant CPR for them, right? That said, I think town should really consider picking either dayvig or copycat when you find yourself on the first half of the draft.
They're welcome to try it. I'm willing to trade an easy early mafia kill for them getting CPR. Plus if they happen to whiff on selecting dayvig, they risk getting a copycat role which is completely useless to them (for example, alignment cop). And they risk having someone lower in the list whiffing on copycat, thus narrowing the potential CPR candidates. Doing something like that is a huge gamble for them.
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On May 15 2012 09:35 talismania wrote:
Paqman, the plans being discussed all revolve around setting the roles to be picked by the top three or so draft winners. In effect, they are pre-claiming the roles that those three people will get.
But what if the top three winners, regardless of alignment, simply choose to not follow one of the plans laid out? That's what I'm wondering, if nobody in the top 3-5 chooses CPR/Janitor/RB then should whoever gets that power claim?
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On May 15 2012 10:19 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 09:35 talismania wrote:
Paqman, the plans being discussed all revolve around setting the roles to be picked by the top three or so draft winners. In effect, they are pre-claiming the roles that those three people will get. But what if the top three winners, regardless of alignment, simply choose to not follow one of the plans laid out? That's what I'm wondering, if nobody in the top 3-5 chooses CPR/Janitor/RB then should whoever gets that power claim?
Well, first of all if we were to follow the plan, 4 and 5 shouldn't get CPR/Janitor. IF they end up getting either, that means two players already went against a pro-town plan and the two of them should be main focus. I'm not sure if that would warrant insta-lynches though; the 4/5 picking CPR/jan could be towns that want to make sure that 1/2 are following the plan and mafia can't get the roles; The same way, it's very likely that mafia would shoot 1/2(more so 1 than 2) so they could pick veteran/hider and waste mafia KP.
I don't like those ideas though; I agree with the plans and the players should follow it IMO.
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I agree with the Qatol Compromise™
So picks 1-3 will be the following:
1. CPR
2. Janitor
3. rng of CPR/Janitor
Everyone cool with this?
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On May 15 2012 10:19 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 09:35 talismania wrote:
Paqman, the plans being discussed all revolve around setting the roles to be picked by the top three or so draft winners. In effect, they are pre-claiming the roles that those three people will get. But what if the top three winners, regardless of alignment, simply choose to not follow one of the plans laid out? That's what I'm wondering, if nobody in the top 3-5 chooses CPR/Janitor/RB then should whoever gets that power claim?
Who are you thinking wouldn't follow the plans? Nobody is even arguing against them right now. Are you suggesting that there are 3-5 people who think it is better to disagree and silently act on their own rather than talking about their concerns openly right now? That's pretty anti-town behavior on their part. If anyone has reservations about assigning the roles as we are discussing, please bring them forward now. However, if the plan isn't followed and someone lower in the queue happens to get the Janitor or CPR Doctor (as I mentioned earlier, you should consider all roles fair game just in case, no matter where you are in the queue - use your judgment based on your reads on the people above you and your location), then yeah, they should claim after the Copy Cat has been assigned. It creates accountability, which is never a bad thing.
Note: this is only with regards to the CPR Doctor and the Janitor roles. This is not an invitation to claim your role (or lack thereof) for no reason later.
It's possible that these plans won't work if the top 3 picks are all mafia/SK, but then we can figure them out via the KP numbers. And it isn't like they won't drop like flies once we figure out what happened. This is the whole point of slowing down the game - to give the town time to organize.
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I'm good with the Qatol Compromise™ although it still allows the mafia to play the luck game. After those first three assignments though, everyone make there own judgement (as Qatol said).
@PaqMan No town would have a reason to not follow the plan given.
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Come on, this really is like WBGs C9++ all over again just that Qatol has taken over Sandrobas place.
I tell everyone that making sure mafia can't grab the CPR should be number #1 priority and we should make it something like #1 CPR #2 CPR or #1 CPR #2RB and that Sandrobas plan sounds more promising to mafia than it does for town and everyone is like "screw that guy, Sandroba is right, Toad is just telling bullshit". Just that people don't call me retarded this game because GM would probably modkill for that, so it's a more pleasent way of calling me retarded while still meaning the same.
Qatol gets in here, basicly tells the exact same things I've been telling people and everyone is suddenly like "well that guy has a point! That sounds really awesome and logical! We should totally do that!"
You've simply got to be kidding me. But yeah I'm fine with not getting credit for the basic idea and telling people they are wrong in sheeping Sandroba and that we should instead try to deny the CPR 100% as long as people end up doing the right thing. That way Qatol gets shot and I'm safe while being the hero town needs.
+ Show Spoiler +If that's not a nomination for Drama Queen award I don't know what else I need to do to get that award
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lolz. The name (I think) comes from combining your idea of doubling up and hiros reluctancy to double up to some sort of randomized compromise.
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We can rename the plan to "The Great Toadesstern/Qatol Compromise of 2012™" if it makes you feel any better 
+ Show Spoiler +The thing is Toad, is though Qatol was not the frist to bring up the ideas, He had more convicing arguments then we did, so people listend to him. Pretty simple. You still get points in my book for pushing protown plans.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 15 2012 11:37 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 10:19 PaqMan wrote:On May 15 2012 09:35 talismania wrote:
Paqman, the plans being discussed all revolve around setting the roles to be picked by the top three or so draft winners. In effect, they are pre-claiming the roles that those three people will get. But what if the top three winners, regardless of alignment, simply choose to not follow one of the plans laid out? That's what I'm wondering, if nobody in the top 3-5 chooses CPR/Janitor/RB then should whoever gets that power claim? Who are you thinking wouldn't follow the plans? Nobody is even arguing against them right now. Are you suggesting that there are 3-5 people who think it is better to disagree and silently act on their own rather than talking about their concerns openly right now? That's pretty anti-town behavior on their part. If anyone has reservations about assigning the roles as we are discussing, please bring them forward now. However, if the plan isn't followed and someone lower in the queue happens to get the Janitor or CPR Doctor (as I mentioned earlier, you should consider all roles fair game just in case, no matter where you are in the queue - use your judgment based on your reads on the people above you and your location), then yeah, they should claim after the Copy Cat has been assigned. It creates accountability, which is never a bad thing. Note: this is only with regards to the CPR Doctor and the Janitor roles. This is not an invitation to claim your role (or lack thereof) for no reason later.It's possible that these plans won't work if the top 3 picks are all mafia/SK, but then we can figure them out via the KP numbers. And it isn't like they won't drop like flies once we figure out what happened. This is the whole point of slowing down the game - to give the town time to organize.
That's why I said what if.
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I don't need points in anyones book for pushing plans. Anyone uncertain about my alignment can just pm Rad and ask him what he thinks about me. As far as I recall he was willing to function as a coach in this game. I heard Rad is really good at figuring out my alignment.
It just strikes me that I am apparently doing the right things every single game (except for AC!) but am completly failing at making clear why I am doing those.
Everyone calls my cases retarded, even if I copy & paste them from a skype log with Sandroba and apparently my "case" on why we need to deny those KP roles and especially the CPR to was crappy as well because everyone disagreed with it yet people think that Qatol is right with everything he said.
Funny thing is that I thought I covered most things myself. I did an example showing that we can lose after 2 cycles if mafia gets the CPR to show how gamebreaking that role could be and people didn't say a word about that, yet when Qatol said the same thing (he called it slowing down the game) everyone agreed about it.
It was merely a funny (?) observation.
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I noticed it, Toad. I tend to not comment on things if I can't make any sort of contribution. I'm not really sure how to explain this but Qatol just seems more aggressive in asserting his opinion and getting the point across, or something.
But yeah don't think that your posts are being ignored.
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Yeah if we assign CPR we have to confirm it because it can be dropped and that's a loss of one town role and leaves the CPR open for shots in case he is town. Also as qatol said there are plenty of roles that have kp and we can't really track who the cpr shoots so really I don't see the point of assigning the role.
Also there is no need to confirm janitor as the usage of the role means the assigned spot is scum, if he dropped it or not. That's the same with RB and pardoner if we assign them, so that's why it's a good deal to do it.
I never said townie CPR should be shooting every night, but he is an infinite vigi and at town hands it does tilt the balance towards it. There is a reason why a game is considered imba when town has more kp then scum, and that's because kp is the most powerful thing in the game.
Bottom line is I don't think it's worth it to invest 2 roles in "denying cpr", specially since doing so doesn't acomplish what it is supposed to acomplish. The RB blocking cpr does a slightly better job if we want to do it, but that would require assigning cpr, confirming it and have it useless forever.
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Investing 2 roles in denying does do what it accomplishes because then we know exactly where the role is. The reason why we're assigning CPR is that if not, we give scum an extra KP permanently. As long as town has the role, then we're safe. Us knowing where the CPR is means CPR scum can't abuse the power without us knowing (tracker, though qatol/toad says is useless, can check this; or roleblock; or seeing if there is consistent 2 KP being used).
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Sandroba 1) I don't understand how assigning cpr makes it useless forever and 2) why that would be bad thing if it were?
you seem very reluctant on assigning it, when the kp role you proposed assigning (GF) is only one kp. And GF is probably not even better than the other one kp roles (day vig, angry vig, JOAT) nor the two kp role (vig) from a scum point of view.
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If scum obtain the CPR role then it's definitely worth taking out of play, I don't understand how you could argue about that. They already start off with the upper hand and denying them one of the strongest roles in the game is a plus for town.
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Sure you know where it is. You don't know the alignment of the dude though. So your plan is to tie even more roles to prevent Cpr from acting. That imho sucks balls. That are 4 other possible kp sources so by the time you can establish constant kp is being used it doesn't matter much anymore. If you invest so much into denying cpr mafia will simply not try to get and leave useless cpr in towns hands and get an advantage for free. They can ensure colision to avoid any of the very top spots easily.
I'm not assigning GF because it's stronger than other kp roles, it's because 1) It's useless for town, so mafia can get it a relative low spots if we don't assign it; 2) It has 1 kp AND is imune to role checks. Very strong for scum, specially if we don't know where it is.
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It's me, sandroba, sorry about that;
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EPT
