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On May 15 2012 21:22 zelblade wrote:
THe only alignment cop is a parity cop, which guess what, cant actually get any valauble results till at least the end of day 2, and if scum gets framer that screws it up all the more.
Pardoner cant pardon himself I think.
Actually, we have the JOAT dt power.
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wtf I now realize that the pardoner can't pardon himself. That makes it a predominantly mafia role.
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JOAT's investigate is a rolecheck
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Ah... Ic, we have no alignment checkers I guess.
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On May 15 2012 21:40 Bluelightz wrote:
Ah... Ic, we have no alignment checkers I guess.
Except parity cop of course.
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the point about those DT plans is that we usualy don't have 20 cycles to find out what's going on...
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On May 15 2012 23:06 Toadesstern wrote:
the point about those DT plans is that we usualy don't have 20 cycles to find out what's going on...
Good point T_T, but scum does thin out the herd though, Toad what do you think of how dangerous is the roles I pointed out?
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On May 15 2012 23:14 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:06 Toadesstern wrote:
the point about those DT plans is that we usualy don't have 20 cycles to find out what's going on... Good point T_T, but scum does thin out the herd though, Toad what do you think of how dangerous is the roles I pointed out?
angry vig, traitor, pardoner and politician?
Angry vig is nice for mafia because as we're trying to keep KP low there's people who are going to pick into vet / medic / jailor (that kind of stuff) and 2 KP just kills those things even if they end up targeting the protected guy. So if you are somewhat at the top I agree, picking angry vig might be a nice option as well.
Traitor is a no-brainer. It straight up buffs mafia and nerves town while making sure you end up playing with the buffed party and you might end up screwing the town plan on top of it (which is why I still like the double assign for CPR).
Considering strenght of the roles this one is probably stronger than GF and the likes but not stronger than a CPR. However, a Traitor that is not able to be a real mafia later on is really lame to play and it's about the most boring role you could imagine.
Pardoner is somewhat of a gimmick role. It gives mafia one additional cycle in worst cases and if mafia have a lot of CP that's a lot. So if Mafia could grab CPR and one more KP thing that could end up devasting. However no townie would ever use this role. Never ever. So everyone who gets pardoned is probably considered to be confirmed mafia so the only use I see in a Pardoner is to either give mafia the one additional night phase as a play of time or to just pardon a townie lynch, which is a wasted cycle and on top of that peoople will think the townie is a mafia and lynch him again. So it's really 2 more cycles.
I think it's really powerful gimmick-role when used the right way. People I talked to pre-game however didn't agree on the powerful part.
Politician I don't see him as a huge threat.
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We definitely aren't making a set draft list cause that turned out terribly in PYP3 (basically, gives scum a way to organize roles safely and scum knows where each role is).
I do agree with almost all of the roles that you posted, but I don't understand your reasoning for angry vig. Angry vig only gets one shot.
Also, still confused as to our plan against copycat. If copycat gets the role of the first power role that dies, how do we guarantee that that role isn't good for mafia (ie, first lynch is someone with a KP or RB, or first lynch is vanilla and mafia stacks on CPR doc)?
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United States22154 Posts
Numbers are due within the next 9 hours and 7 minutes! Remember that you MUST pm them to both myself and chaoser.
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Couldn't read page 22 due to school filter problems.
I could see politician as a big player when the numbers are next to even. Or if a scummy-looking town is pulled to vote for a town candidate. Actually people can create a lot of havoc with that, claiming politician changed their vote.
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So are we decided on:
1. CPR
2. Janitor
3. RNG CPR Janitor
4+ Pick whatever
Is there anyone who does not agree with this plan?
For the remaining roles, here are my thoughts. Mostly just general guidelines, not a 'pick this role' kinda thing. Anyone think differently?
Strong town and mafia roles. People high in the list should pick these as it both gives town good roles and denies mafia them: Vigilante*, Angry Vigilante*, Day Vigilante*, Role blocker, Copy Cat
Strong town roles that should be picked if possible:
Role Cop, Parity Cop, Bullet Bill, Veteran, Doctor, Mason, Jack Of All Trades
Badtown roles, pick something better if possible:
Witch, Jailkeeper, Hider, Tracker
Mafia roles, anyone rolechecked with these should be lynched:
Godfather, Traitor, Pardoner, Politician, Framer
*Townies with KP roles should use them as sparingly as possible, and only when absolutely sure. Trigger happy vigilantes are a surefire way to give mafia an unnecessary advantage.
blah
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I think this qatol compromise is slightly suboptimal - there's no need to have an RNG janitor option. If janitor gets used, whoever was supposed to pick it gets lynched. We don't need to confirm its existence.
I'd prefer something like
1.CPR
2.CPR
3.Janitor
After that I agree that KP roles should be high on everyone's list that ends up near the top.
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Ugh, you people post too much.
Toadesstern, I'm sorry you feel like I'm stealing your thunder. It wasn't intentional. Like PaqMan said, your posts definitely aren't being ignored. Nobody is calling your ideas retarded. In fact, most of us agree with them! I'm willing to talk to you more in depth about your posting, but I don't think mid-game is the right context for that. Shoot me a PM after the game ends/ after we both die and we can talk. Also, I think I have you beat by a few years on the idea of assigning specific roles to specific draft slots. 
Sandroba, there is also a reason that a lot of games involving a lot of town KP end in disaster if the KP is used early (see Responsibility Mafia for example). Assigning the role does accomplish what we want to accomplish. It puts the role at a known spot in the queue, which allows the role to be roleblocked by a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper later in the queue if they wish. It also forces the mafia to take the role with the first pick if they want it. Meanwhile, if a townie gets the role, then we have effectively taken one of the most dangerous roles out of play for the mafia. Assigning the 50/50 pick for the 3rd player isn't just about denying CPR, it's also about denying Janitor. The point is we don't want to see the role used at all, it isn't just that we are worried about finding scum after the role is used (although that is a perk).
Regarding the Godfather, the point everyone else has is that the Godfather role simply isn't that strong a selection for the mafia. There are far more concerning selections anyways. Plus, if you're worried about the role, just consider taking it (if you don't have a top 3 pick). This advice applies to everyone and every role. The point is that we don't want the mafia to feel safe taking anything (other than Tracker). Also, could you re-post the Carolus Magnus post on your Sandroba account? You're messing up your filter for later if you don't.
Barundar/Bluelightz, the problem with denying more roles than just 2 is you wind up in a situation where the mafia has a very good idea of what each player is going to be selecting. This is problematic for a few reasons.
First, the mafia/SK can simply take roles they want before they are assigned and feel relatively comfortable that they will get their role. We don't want them to feel comfortable selecting anything, especially not the roles they specifically want. We want them to have to weigh the danger that a role will be selected against the value that role brings to their team. We want to force them to select roles they don't want as much because they're worried that selecting the roles they do want will be too dangerous. Alternatively, we want them to try to select a role they really want, but miss and wind up with vanilla members. Both situations are a huge win for the town.
Second, we don't want the mafia/SK to know where to shoot to hit the roles they are concerned about. The problem with assigning too many roles is the mafia/SK know where those roles are, so if we want to commit to keeping them alive, we have to use our protections on them, which gives the mafia/SK more confidence when shooting other players. We want them to spend their time shooting into players with defensive roles and/or players who have defensively selected a role but don't intend to use it. The odds that they will do such a thing go up significantly if we assign fewer roles.
Barundar, the problem with your role cop plan (as mentioned by zelblade and Bluelightz) is that there aren't enough roles which can confirm role selection. Because of this, it is not worth the drawbacks (mentioned above) of assigning every role in exchange for allowing 1 role + 1 JOAT check (note: it is a role check only) + sometimes a Bullet Bill check the ability to check if people followed the plan. For all you know, the mafia may even want the role they are assigned, which causes even more problems.
Regarding roles, I'm surprised people are pointing out the danger of Angry Vigilante when I find Vigilante to be far scarier. Sure Angry Vigilante bypasses the first protection. But how often do we get medic protections anyways? And what are the odds that the player shot will be protected by a medic. It allows the mafia to beat a medic and kill an experienced player night 1 if they want, but it's a one-shot ability and the mafia are still gambling that the player didn't pick something like Hider or Veteran + attracted protection or happens to be the SK. Meanwhile, Vigilante allows the mafia to take out 2 players and speed up the game that much more - a far more dangerous ability.
SK Politician is a powerful selection. However, it only assists the SK in the lategame. It is the town + the mafia's job to make sure that the SK doesn't make it to the lategame. Besides, the selection isn't without its dangers - if a role check is used on the SK, it's going to be pretty obvious what his alignment is if he has Politician and hasn't claimed it.
Pardoner doesn't scare me - it slows down the game and I'm more worried about the mafia speeding the game up. While it can be used to confuse the town, it isn't as devastating as other selections they could make. Remember, the mafia have to use one of their 4 role selections on this role. I think they have more value elsewhere.
Misder, please read my earlier posts on the copycat. Mafia only have 1 KP, so they can't stack on anyone. SK shoots before any roles get their shots, so Mafia would lose the ability to control the copycatted role.
Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider). And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT). Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example.
I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it.
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On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider).
Any particular reason why? I purposely left it as loose as possible, but I do think that KP roles should have a higher priority as you have the double benefit of denying mafia the roles.
On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT).
Its just the way I feel about it, I'm open to debate on the matter.
I feel that jailkeeper is just a gimped roleblocker/doctor. If you want to RB someone scummy, you also protect them. If you want to medic an important townie, you also roleblock them. Why would you take jailkeeper over either doctor or roleblocker?
Hider is a pure gamblers role, pick wrong and you give scum a free kill. With Veteran there's no such risk, its a much safer defensive role, if a little weaker overall.
Witch I'm unsure about, it basically reduces scum KP by 1 for a night. Is that a better option compared to other defensive or detective roles? I don't think a one shot power makes it worth it, where all other defensive roles are reusable.
On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example.
Interesting that you bring up roleblocker. That's one of the roles I was unsure about, and was tempted to drop it down to mafia only. I'm not sure about the town benefits.
Does the roleblocker block the inherent mafia/SK night hits?
On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it.
Yes, if you pick any of the mafia only roles from a denial point of view, you have to claim straight away.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 16 2012 03:37 deconduo wrote:
Does the roleblocker block the inherent mafia/SK night hits?
Nope, its a roleblocker.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:Ugh, you people post too much. Toadesstern, I'm sorry you feel like I'm stealing your thunder. It wasn't intentional. Like PaqMan said, your posts definitely aren't being ignored. Nobody is calling your ideas retarded. In fact, most of us agree with them! I'm willing to talk to you more in depth about your posting, but I don't think mid-game is the right context for that. Shoot me a PM after the game ends/ after we both die and we can talk. Also, I think I have you beat by a few years on the idea of assigning specific roles to specific draft slots.
Sandroba, there is also a reason that a lot of games involving a lot of town KP end in disaster if the KP is used early (see Responsibility Mafia for example). Assigning the role does accomplish what we want to accomplish. It puts the role at a known spot in the queue, which allows the role to be roleblocked by a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper later in the queue if they wish. It also forces the mafia to take the role with the first pick if they want it. Meanwhile, if a townie gets the role, then we have effectively taken one of the most dangerous roles out of play for the mafia. Assigning the 50/50 pick for the 3rd player isn't just about denying CPR, it's also about denying Janitor. The point is we don't want to see the role used at all, it isn't just that we are worried about finding scum after the role is used (although that is a perk). Regarding the Godfather, the point everyone else has is that the Godfather role simply isn't that strong a selection for the mafia. There are far more concerning selections anyways. Plus, if you're worried about the role, just consider taking it (if you don't have a top 3 pick). This advice applies to everyone and every role. The point is that we don't want the mafia to feel safe taking anything (other than Tracker). Also, could you re-post the Carolus Magnus post on your Sandroba account? You're messing up your filter for later if you don't.
Barundar/Bluelightz, the problem with denying more roles than just 2 is you wind up in a situation where the mafia has a very good idea of what each player is going to be selecting. This is problematic for a few reasons. First, the mafia/SK can simply take roles they want before they are assigned and feel relatively comfortable that they will get their role. We don't want them to feel comfortable selecting anything, especially not the roles they specifically want. We want them to have to weigh the danger that a role will be selected against the value that role brings to their team. We want to force them to select roles they don't want as much because they're worried that selecting the roles they do want will be too dangerous. Alternatively, we want them to try to select a role they really want, but miss and wind up with vanilla members. Both situations are a huge win for the town. Second, we don't want the mafia/SK to know where to shoot to hit the roles they are concerned about. The problem with assigning too many roles is the mafia/SK know where those roles are, so if we want to commit to keeping them alive, we have to use our protections on them, which gives the mafia/SK more confidence when shooting other players. We want them to spend their time shooting into players with defensive roles and/or players who have defensively selected a role but don't intend to use it. The odds that they will do such a thing go up significantly if we assign fewer roles. Barundar, the problem with your role cop plan (as mentioned by zelblade and Bluelightz) is that there aren't enough roles which can confirm role selection. Because of this, it is not worth the drawbacks (mentioned above) of assigning every role in exchange for allowing 1 role + 1 JOAT check (note: it is a role check only) + sometimes a Bullet Bill check the ability to check if people followed the plan. For all you know, the mafia may even want the role they are assigned, which causes even more problems.
Regarding roles, I'm surprised people are pointing out the danger of Angry Vigilante when I find Vigilante to be far scarier. Sure Angry Vigilante bypasses the first protection. But how often do we get medic protections anyways? And what are the odds that the player shot will be protected by a medic. It allows the mafia to beat a medic and kill an experienced player night 1 if they want, but it's a one-shot ability and the mafia are still gambling that the player didn't pick something like Hider or Veteran + attracted protection or happens to be the SK. Meanwhile, Vigilante allows the mafia to take out 2 players and speed up the game that much more - a far more dangerous ability. SK Politician is a powerful selection. However, it only assists the SK in the lategame. It is the town + the mafia's job to make sure that the SK doesn't make it to the lategame. Besides, the selection isn't without its dangers - if a role check is used on the SK, it's going to be pretty obvious what his alignment is if he has Politician and hasn't claimed it. Pardoner doesn't scare me - it slows down the game and I'm more worried about the mafia speeding the game up. While it can be used to confuse the town, it isn't as devastating as other selections they could make. Remember, the mafia have to use one of their 4 role selections on this role. I think they have more value elsewhere. Misder, please read my earlier posts on the copycat. Mafia only have 1 KP, so they can't stack on anyone. SK shoots before any roles get their shots, so Mafia would lose the ability to control the copycatted role. Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider). And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT). Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example. I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it.
A few corrections, first bluelightz was the one suggesting the role cop plan, I'd never agree to a follow the cop scenario, but he seems to have pulled it off the table anyways.
I interpret your argument against denying more roles as you don't want to have to deal with copy cat shenanigans by having scum powerroles die night 1, is that correct? If so I feel a lot better about not regulating the CC.
Second angry vigi can't be used on first night, making it even less of a threat.
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Deconduo, I don't like the idea of a tiering system because I don't want people locked into the idea of "X role isn't good enough to be picked this early" or "X role is too good to be picked this late." Such a system results in CPR Doctor being picked at 20, Meth Man making it to 16, and Copycat slipping down to 24 (all from Pick Your Power Insane). I know it will still happen to a certain extent, but I want to minimize it. If it's a good role, I want to see it in the game and I want to see it in the hands of someone who is comfortable using it. That should also keep interest and activity levels higher for the town. I realize that you left things relatively open, but I think any sort of tiering system will push people into this mindset more than I'd like to see.
Jailkeeper in particular synergizes well with CPR doctor. Generally, it's an extra doctor, but it also has the benefit of denying the use of roles you don't want to see used anyways. Alternatively, we can use it as a second roleblocker. You would take it instead of roleblocker or doctor because you think the other role is being picked or just because you want to give the game a little more flexibility.
Hider is a gamber's role, but only to a certain extent. Notice that Hider does not die if he hides behind mafia any more. This means that you just have to think about the players you think the mafia/SK are unlikely to hit.
The biggest benefit of Witch isn't that it reduces KP, but that it definitely automatically gives a free blocked hit. This alone makes it stronger than Veteran unless someone is silly enough to shoot the Veteran twice but not on consecutive nights. It may also be stronger than Doctor because of how hard it is to block a hit in the first place.
I disagree about claiming a denial role straight away. Claim it only after the Copy Cat has been decided. We don't want to give the mafia ideas about other players to shoot and grab good roles.
Say a Hider hides behind another player and then the Hider is targeted by the Angry Vigilante. Does the Hider die? It looks to me like he would not, correct?
Similarly, the Witch seems to indicate that it will simply prevent someone from dying. Does this mean that the Witch protection will stop an Angry Vigilante shot?
On May 16 2012 03:50 Barundar wrote:
A few corrections, first bluelightz was the one suggesting the role cop plan, I'd never agree to a follow the cop scenario, but he seems to have pulled it off the table anyways.
I interpret your argument against denying more roles as you don't want to have to deal with copy cat shenanigans by having scum powerroles die night 1, is that correct? If so I feel a lot better about not regulating the CC.
Second angry vigi can't be used on first night, making it even less of a threat.
My apologies. It was bluelightz and not you who suggested the role cop plan.
My argument for denying roles is I don't want to deal with the scum having those power roles, or at least I don't want them to feel secure taking those power roles. I to force them to think on their feet because they're more likely to make a mistake that way. And if we wind up with a vanilla goon/SK, we are in much better shape. I believe the copy cat will be dealt with either by the day 1 lynch or medic protections. I don't believe the mafia will shoot into the Janitor/CPR players for fear of a doctor, which means they have to guess as to who has which role, a situation I'm okay with. If they do shoot the CPR/Janitor and run into a medic, then the SK shot determines the role of the Copy Cat, which I'm also okay with. But the best way to deal with the Copy Cat is to get a lynch off on day 1. I already have a strong candidate in mind, in fact. However, I don't want to discuss that kind of thing until we have sorted out the number selections and the drafting phase. We need to remain focused on what is going on right now.
You are correct about the Angry Vigi. Nice catch. I feel a little embarrased about missing that one.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 16 2012 05:40 Qatol wrote:
Say a Hider hides behind another player and then the Hider is targeted by the Angry Vigilante. Does the Hider die? It looks to me like he would not, correct?
Similarly, the Witch seems to indicate that it will simply prevent someone from dying. Does this mean that the Witch protection will stop an Angry Vigilante shot?
Correct and correct.
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Hmm.... that and GMarshal's clarification seems to take angry vig down a notch. Although Hider and Witch aren't exactly prime roles, it's still something to consider.
I think jailkeeper would be odd though in the early game. Since generally you'd have a greater chance of blocking a blue than a red until we have a good picture of who everyone is. It's like shooting someone in the foot and then patching up the wound. The flip side to this is being able to roleblock the SK's bulletproof and having vigs/CPR/mafia take him out.
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