• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:41
CET 12:41
KST 20:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies0ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1815 users

Newbie Mini XII - Page 20

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 18 19 20 21 22 29 Next All
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 17:46 GMT
#381
Let me retract all my pedantic and excessively jargon-filled arguments from before and try to simplify my case.

It seems that FirmTofu and Clawtrocity, regardless of their alignment, aren't so much playing to win as playing to be unpredictable and to troll. That kind of behavior can only hurt the town. You can't confuse the mafia by being trolly since the mafia know who you are. And since the mafia read the same thing on the forum as everybody else, consistent assessments will result in consistent actions.

Without getting too formal....

We say that an assessment of a situation is consistent if what you think about it is what other people think that you think about it. If I think I'm fat, but nobody else thinks that I think I'm fat, then my initial assessment was consistent.

In particular, we are interested in how actions affect what the town thinks, and affect what the mafia thinks that the town thinks.

Let's walk through some cases


Case 1: You troll hard enough so that the townspeople think you're mafia, then you have trolled enough for the mafia to think that the townspeople think that you're mafia. This only hurts the town because if the townspeople genuinely think that you're mafia, you only get lynched during day play.



Case 2: You troll just hard enough so that the townspeople don't think you're mafia, but that the mafia mistakenly think the townspeople think you're mafia. This is beneficial, but this is what you would call an "inconsistent" assessment. Since Mafia have access to a superset of information, regarding alignments, as the townies during day play, it is illogical to think that mafia think that the town believes something it doesn't. <- Lots of I think that he thinks, but if you read that last sentence a few times it should be pretty clear.


Case 3: You troll hard enough so the townspeople think you're mafia, but the mafia mistakenly think the townspeople think you're mafia. This is a double-edged bad situation. You get yourself voted off in day play, and just to be sure, you haven't reduced the probability of your being targeted in night play.

Case 4: You don't troll enough to make the townspeople think you're mafia, and the mafia know that you haven't trolled enough to make the townspeople think you're mafia. This is the only consistent assessment that doesn't hurt the town.

Conclusions: Illogical, trolly, or generally scummy behavior should be taken as an indicator of being scum.

Dahdum, Aces, and Matriarch, and to a lesser degree Ange, are more or less inactive. They haven't said anything of import in one way or the other. Basically only echoing previously posted sentiment or posting one off comments without having those comments materialize into legitimate accusations or votes. There is really no point in lynching any of them at this stage in the game when it is clear that lynching one of the three troublemakers (me, tofu, or claw) will actually reveal information, even if we flip a VT. If I flip medic, you know my accusations of Claw have been unfounded. If Claw flips anything other than medic, you know my accusations of Claw have been right on. My case against claw has been heavily documented and you can see it by using the filter command on my posts or his. I'd rather not get into that again.

Tofu, on the other hand, has made an interesting play. He illogically claimed detective and then apparently illogically used his vote on an inactive, which he knew would 90%+ chance yield no information. If, as he claimed, he was afraid of wasting his check on claw or me, he could've used it on Demorcef or Paschl, who actually have taken stances that alignments might shed light on. And this fear, again, was based on the assumption of there being a godfather or framer who would be lucky enough to target the same person he did (in the case of a framer) or just a 1/9 chance of him accidentally hitting a godfather.

Given that a check on me or claw would be gamebreaking, and given that his chance of being roleblocked was significantly less than 50% assuming any reasonable belief about the presence of either a Godfather or Framer and the distribution of the Framer's choices, his play was (however you look at it) suboptimal.

+ Show Spoiler [proof of suboptimality] +

Let's say he believes that, as in each of the previous 11 games, that there has been 1 roleblocker for the Mafia and that there was a p probability that that roleblocker was a framer and a 1-p probability that the roleblocker was a Godfather. Presume that his probability of being blocked conditional on there being a godfather was 1/9. Presume that his probability of being blocked conditional on their being a framer was less than or equal to 50% (which is a minimax safe strategy in a symmetric guessing game achieved by randomly choosing me or claw). Then, his probability of being roleblocked was p*(1/2) + (1-p)*(1/9), which we can see is maximized (through first order conditions and resulting corner case) where p = 1. Therefore, his probability of being role blocked in the very worst case was 50%. If, however, he more reasonably believed that the chance of a framer or a Godfather was equal (p=1/2) then his probability of being blocked was only 5/18.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 17:48 GMT
#382
I meant "if I don't flip medic" in the 3rd to last paragraph.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 17:58 GMT
#383
Ehhh.... the more I look at it the more I see suboptimal play all around.

I guess in a newbie game, it's a weaker argument than it might be otherwise. I guess the best way to address suboptimal play is with more suboptimal play.

Whatever. Vote me off and make what you will of my medic flip

##Unvote: No Lynch
##Vote: Gummy


It's probably better than a no lynch at this point since this actually gives you guys information you can trust without having to work through deduction or math, and since you guys don't seem to have the balls to make reasonable votes on candidates who might actually get a majority. ^_^ GL HF friends!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
paschl
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany666 Posts
May 05 2012 18:06 GMT
#384
##Vote: No Lynch

maybe its best to take the no lynch today..
im not gonna be useful and im not confident in any vote im going to make.
perhaps we can make the mafia untangle the medic situation.

at this point im starting to trust firm is the cop since i cant see nobody counterclaim in a newbie game.

newbie game is the point btw gummy. you cant expect everyone to play optimal in a newbie game. i dont even think you can expect everyone to know what the optimal play is.
the mafia kill is a perfect example of it.
paschl
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany666 Posts
May 05 2012 18:18 GMT
#385
and fwiw selfvoting is almost never the optimal play
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 18:26 GMT
#386
Only chance of a vote passing. Won't even let that happen.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Ange777
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Germany1164 Posts
May 05 2012 18:58 GMT
#387
Gummy, reading your latest posts was like reading someone entirely different posting than on day 1. Why didn't you just play like this earlier?

As Gummy says the only way we get any real information is if we break up this triangle of Claw, Tofu and Gummy. Setting aside Tofu's detective claim leaves us with Claw and Gummy again! Just like day 1. So how to get out of this?

Paschl, you suggested no lynch and hoping for the mafia to reveal the real medic.

Although that might be possible, Mafia could also continue their strategy of confusing us and leaving us in the dark. They could just kill someone else they believe is townie. Of course they could risk getting checked but who says that this isn't a risk they are willing to take? Apparently they did take it on night 1. If they killed anyone other than Claw, Tofu and Gummy, we would be stuck again on day 3 with the same doubts about the real blue roles.

Right now we have 6 townies, 2 mafia. If we go for a no lynch and mafia just aims for killing a random townie we will be 5 townies and 2 mafia on day 3 with no clue again. Of course Tofu might be able to reveal some information but if we are unlucky his check could target a townie, a framed townie or even the killed player of the night.

I don't understand why we have to wait for another cycle to hope for more information if there is a way to get this information ourselves.

Gummy, if you truly are the medic, which I am assuming right now, than please stop this nonsense vote for yourself. Even if mafia decides to kill you in the next night, you suiciding right now is not helping at all. If we lynched you, you fliped medic, than mafia is safe to kill Tofu. If on the other hand we lynched Claw, he flips not medic, than mafia still has to kill you to be sure that they won't waste a kill on Tofu because the medic is still out there. Which would give us hopefully one more night of checking.

Therefore

##Vote: Clawtrocity
♥ Sen - 台灣之光 ♥
Ange777
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Germany1164 Posts
May 05 2012 19:00 GMT
#388
@Paschl: Köln? Or Kaiserslautern? ^^ We from Frankfurt can't complain at all
♥ Sen - 台灣之光 ♥
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 19:57 GMT
#389
##unvote:gummy
##vote:clawtrocity
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
paschl
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany666 Posts
May 05 2012 20:04 GMT
#390
I suggested no lynch because the mafia has to start going after blues soon.
And i seriously doubt there being a framer or godfather, they would seriously fuck the balance of a small game.
Every day the cop lives we have another clear player in addition to the claimable roles.
If we want to lynch fro claw/gummy id vote claw. Im still tempted to vote gummy but the chances of the mafia claiming medic first are so much greater than the chances of the mafia counterclaiming a medic claim on day1.

And Köln
My heart got broken today. Well thats not entirely true, my heart got broken every game this season.
:'(
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-05 20:17:11
May 05 2012 20:16 GMT
#391
Vote Count:

Clawtrocity(2) - Gummy,Ange777
Ange777 (1) - FirmTofu
No-Lynch (1) - Paschl

With 8 alive it is 5 to lynch! Currently no one is set to be lynch.

Remember EVERYONE is required to vote, even if it is for no-lynch. Night post incoming in little less than 4 hours.

If the vote count is wrong, PM me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 20:24 GMT
#392
Yeah no lynch again.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 20:25 GMT
#393
Saddest game of mafia I have ever seen no lynch is a pretty good way to lose.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 20:27 GMT
#394
Best hope for town is probably a mod kill on claw.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Matriarch
Profile Joined April 2012
United States21 Posts
May 05 2012 20:54 GMT
#395
##vote: Claw

As I have said before I believe either Claw or Gummy are scum. I'm voting Claw because I personally do not want to see another no lynch. Even if it ends up that Claw was telling the truth, we will have some pretty good information.
dahdum
Profile Joined May 2010
United States46 Posts
May 05 2012 20:56 GMT
#396
I thought before it wasn't the worth the risk to lynch Claw, but I don't think another night kill is worth the 1 check Firm can do, and a no-lynch day when there are fewer people and more information is better than right now.

##vote:clawtrocity
AcesRequiem
Profile Joined March 2012
Belgium26 Posts
May 05 2012 21:52 GMT
#397
We need the lynch for info or this situation is gets even worse. Since everyone has voted for this person already

##Vote: Clawtrocity

@Matriarch, get your format right please.
Pessimism of the intellect, Optimism of the will
Matriarch
Profile Joined April 2012
United States21 Posts
May 05 2012 22:16 GMT
#398
##Vote: Clawtrocity

@Aces, happy?
Matriarch
Profile Joined April 2012
United States21 Posts
May 05 2012 22:16 GMT
#399
##Vote: Clawtrocity

HA!
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
May 05 2012 22:19 GMT
#400
That is 5!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Prev 1 18 19 20 21 22 29 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
09:00
WardiTV Mondays #65
CranKy Ducklings224
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 120
RotterdaM 98
trigger 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2081
Bisu 1015
GuemChi 577
Stork 452
Larva 335
Soma 315
firebathero 297
Light 222
Mini 211
Sharp 194
[ Show more ]
Aegong 193
PianO 134
ggaemo 127
Killer 120
Yoon 110
hero 89
ZerO 85
Pusan 75
JYJ 75
Snow 71
Rush 61
ToSsGirL 47
soO 42
Mong 41
sorry 28
Movie 27
NotJumperer 27
yabsab 23
zelot 21
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Shinee 15
Terrorterran 10
Sacsri 10
SilentControl 10
Bale 9
Noble 8
Icarus 5
Dota 2
singsing3001
XcaliburYe615
League of Legends
JimRising 349
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2512
x6flipin436
zeus54
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor170
Other Games
summit1g8320
Fuzer 232
crisheroes215
XaKoH 190
Mew2King69
nookyyy 55
ZerO(Twitch)13
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 57
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt471
• HappyZerGling136
Other Games
• WagamamaTV294
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
19m
Monday Night Weeklies
5h 19m
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.