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On May 09 2012 22:17 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 20:41 syllogism wrote:On May 09 2012 20:38 Mattchew wrote:On May 09 2012 16:12 syllogism wrote:
I don't personally think this setup is good for players who haven't played a single game before, maybe the disclaimer should suggest playing a more standard one first (SNMM). It's difficult for even experienced players to ignore DT checks and this one had a completely useless DT. While learning not to rely on roles is an important lesson, I don't think it is a recipe for a fun game that will keep completely new players interested in mafia. Dt could have checked anyone but 2 people and got a correct read back... The framer could not frame themselves so they still had a chance on n1 finding half the mafia kp... 1 mislynch from a scum check would also Prove there to be a framer... If anyone had pushed scum reads and town hadnt mass claimed then town woulda most likely won day 3 It's not a correct check because the target could still be a gf/framed. As soon as a framer flips or actually even earlier when town realizes that there is no roleblocker. Nothing wrong with the setup, I just think complete new player games shouldn't have to take such things into account. Towns in these games are always going to believe a green check and similarly a red check, no matter what, as long as the DT himself isn't suspicious. Towns in new player games already have a disadvantage due to good analysis being sparse, I don't think it's necessary to mislead them with roles too. I suppose having a few experienced players in these games could help. IMO in a 7/2 ratio game as soon as 1 mafia gets lynched, the town becomes instantly overpowering especially to a new nervous mafia player. I also don't agree with the idea that newbie games should depend on blues over analysis (not that you are saying exactly this, but you do hint at something like this saying that analysis is sparse), it leads to bad results in future games. Also, 1 medic save would also lead to 2 confirmed townies due to lack of town KP and basically serve as a full proof DT check. Basically what I am saying is that town had every opportunity to win this game (firm almost checked ange n2 but went with gummy instead  )
This^^.
However, in 7-2 I think I would rather see all only one power role to the town, either medic or vig, and a role blocker for mafia. Except vig would probably hurt town more than not in these newbie games.
EDIT* ^^This is not a balance complain.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I wonder if syllogism's idea of having 1 or 2 more experienced players could help these newbie games. Sometimes if town is wandering in the wrong direction, it only takes one person to take the game by the scruff of its neck and get it back on track.
I subbed into Newbie XI where town won largely with no thanks to me at all - they lynched mafia day 1, and I made a wrong read. What I did do was make the player I replaced from a reasonably high priority scumread into a town-read and town was discussing lynches instead of claims/craziness.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Mem: games like this show why 2 power roles for town are not imbalanced at all for newbie games.
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On May 09 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:
I wonder if syllogism's idea of having 1 or 2 more experienced players could help these newbie games. Sometimes if town is wandering in the wrong direction, it only takes one person to take the game by the scruff of its neck and get it back on track.
I subbed into Newbie XI where town won largely with no thanks to me at all - they lynched mafia day 1, and I made a wrong read. What I did do was make the player I replaced from a reasonably high priority scumread into a town-read and town was discussing lynches instead of claims/craziness.
They would just get killed day 1, and if they ended up on the mafia team they would wreck most likely. Example, if you were a goon you probably wouldn't have got lynched. Also it takes away from newbies learning among newbies and then they can play with the big boys later in any games they want. It's worth taking into consideration though. Some newbie games/players are actually high level and some are very low level, the variability is unpredictable. I can't think of the reference but there was a couple really good newb games recently.
On May 09 2012 22:26 marvellosity wrote:
Mem: games like this show why 2 power roles for town are not imbalanced at all for newbie games.
Yeah, I'm not saying its imbalanced. It was balanced from the start. But imo the newbie games should be thought of as a tutorial of how to play. How to establish your innocence, pressure, push reads, and provide discussion that promotes discussion. Making too many power roles just basically end up making the game if you use you power role well you win situation.
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Just an idea here but how about not having power roles?
Or just a medic on town side and a rolecop for the mafia as fixed roles.
So players would have to concentrate on finding scum instead of figuring out the mechanics of what power role might be in the game and how it will effect it.
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On May 09 2012 22:24 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 22:17 Mattchew wrote:On May 09 2012 20:41 syllogism wrote:On May 09 2012 20:38 Mattchew wrote:On May 09 2012 16:12 syllogism wrote:
I don't personally think this setup is good for players who haven't played a single game before, maybe the disclaimer should suggest playing a more standard one first (SNMM). It's difficult for even experienced players to ignore DT checks and this one had a completely useless DT. While learning not to rely on roles is an important lesson, I don't think it is a recipe for a fun game that will keep completely new players interested in mafia. Dt could have checked anyone but 2 people and got a correct read back... The framer could not frame themselves so they still had a chance on n1 finding half the mafia kp... 1 mislynch from a scum check would also Prove there to be a framer... If anyone had pushed scum reads and town hadnt mass claimed then town woulda most likely won day 3 It's not a correct check because the target could still be a gf/framed. As soon as a framer flips or actually even earlier when town realizes that there is no roleblocker. Nothing wrong with the setup, I just think complete new player games shouldn't have to take such things into account. Towns in these games are always going to believe a green check and similarly a red check, no matter what, as long as the DT himself isn't suspicious. Towns in new player games already have a disadvantage due to good analysis being sparse, I don't think it's necessary to mislead them with roles too. I suppose having a few experienced players in these games could help. IMO in a 7/2 ratio game as soon as 1 mafia gets lynched, the town becomes instantly overpowering especially to a new nervous mafia player. I also don't agree with the idea that newbie games should depend on blues over analysis (not that you are saying exactly this, but you do hint at something like this saying that analysis is sparse), it leads to bad results in future games. Also, 1 medic save would also lead to 2 confirmed townies due to lack of town KP and basically serve as a full proof DT check. Basically what I am saying is that town had every opportunity to win this game (firm almost checked ange n2 but went with gummy instead ) This^^. However, in 7-2 I think I would rather see all only one power role to the town, either medic or vig, and a role blocker for mafia. Except vig would probably hurt town more than not in these newbie games.
2roles for town vs 1.5roles for mafia seems pretty fair and balanced to me.
On May 09 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:
I wonder if syllogism's idea of having 1 or 2 more experienced players could help these newbie games. Sometimes if town is wandering in the wrong direction, it only takes one person to take the game by the scruff of its neck and get it back on track.
I subbed into Newbie XI where town won largely with no thanks to me at all - they lynched mafia day 1, and I made a wrong read. What I did do was make the player I replaced from a reasonably high priority scumread into a town-read and town was discussing lynches instead of claims/craziness.
Palmar subbed into a newbie game and nailed 3 for 3 day 1 and then got shot lol
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On May 09 2012 22:38 paschl wrote:
Just an idea here but how about not having power roles?
Or just a medic on town side and a rolecop for the mafia as fixed roles.
So players would have to concentrate on finding scum instead of figuring out the mechanics of what power role might be in the game and how it will effect it.
This is something I am looking into and didn't want to do for my first game. I am debating on whether or not it would be fair because of the likelyhood of a scum fake-claim that cannot be actually counterclaimed
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BTW if town could have discussed scum hunting and the game as much as we have discussed the setup in the postgame town woulda won EZPZ
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@Mattchew, im not saying it wasn't balanced. I just was saying it might make for better games/ learning environment possibly. And you are right, there is no reason with good discussion town couldn't have won. Both mafia were on my radar day 1.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
The problem this game wasn't really the fact the power roles existed, but how all the claims and stuff happened on day 1
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On May 09 2012 22:57 marvellosity wrote:
The problem this game wasn't really the fact the power roles existed, but how all the claims and stuff happened on day 1
word
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
I really don't understand why everyone decided it was a good idea to mass claim D1...
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On May 09 2012 23:00 Hassybaby wrote:
I really don't understand why everyone decided it was a good idea to mass claim D1...
To give scum the only information in the game they don't start with. Duh.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On May 09 2012 23:01 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:00 Hassybaby wrote:
I really don't understand why everyone decided it was a good idea to mass claim D1... To give scum the only information in the game they don't start with. Duh.
Yeeaaahh.......bout that......
:3
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jeeeeeeeesus christ gummy is the worst newbie i have ever fucking seen play this game
> claim green
> ask for medic protection
really?
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i mean this is coming from someone who's day 1 strategy is almost always "dump fucktons of shit into the thread to see who attacks" and if i am calling you out for this strategy, that must say a lot dude
in a newbie game, attacking towns and throwing out game theory (false game theory might i add) up and down when i doubt any of them know what basic mafia strategy is.... come on maaaaaan
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On May 10 2012 13:07 annul wrote:
jeeeeeeeesus christ gummy is the worst newbie i have ever fucking seen play this game
and for this i mean "play the game" as in actually attempt to play mafia; i do not consider the noobs who pump and dump 1 post per cycle to be "playing the game" -- they are objectively worse of course
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Gummy and Claw constantly picking at each other's necks really didn't help. It seemed rather inevitable that after one of them died, the other would too.
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EPT
