EPTWheel of Fortune Mini Mafia
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
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Snarfs
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On April 21 2012 07:02 Toadesstern wrote: Please no policy lynch because I'm less disruptive and posting less which neither fits my town meta nore my mafia meta  Only policy lynch I will condone from the get go is the following: LAB (Lynch all Bluelightzes) | ||
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First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) | ||
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strongandbig, I actually did read your full post. It just seemed like a lot of setup speculation coming from the same guy who said this: On April 22 2012 09:14 strongandbig wrote: At this point I think everyone involved in the "sign your posts" debate looks pretty suspicious. It's a distraction from what we should be focusing on, which is finding the cheating bastard trying to take our money (aka the scum). Purplehaze I'm looking at you. It feels like you made this an issue just to make an issue of it. >.> What was it about the setup speculation that was more important than discussing the hydra signing their posts and why should we not consider you "suspicious" for the same reasons that you thought prplhz was suspicious? | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:53 Sbrubbles wrote: That said, I suppose it might be a good strategy to claim if the masons are two relatively new players (like myself), in that it would draw fire away from more veteran town players. If the masons do decide to claim, though, I don't think we should waste town powers confirming them. I'd be happy with believing them and only doubt them if they start acting specially scummy or aren't dead by day 4. Cops are here to investigate scummy players, not to confirm townies. I agree with all this also. That said, I agree with the hydra in that it's time to stop talking about the masons and to start hunting scum. | ||
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On April 23 2012 09:12 Snarfs wrote: I agree with all this also. That said, I agree with the hydra in that it's time to stop talking about the masons and to start hunting scum. Speaking of which, I'd like to hear some from Ace, whose posts have almost entirely been about Masons at this point. Ace, what do you think of VE has a lynch candidate? If you had to pick a second candidate, who would it be? I think it would be valuable to have two candidates to consider going into the last 18 or so hours before the lynch. | ||
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On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now. On the Zentor/prplhz exchange, you defend Zentor, but agree with Forumite on Zentor's case on prplhz being weak: ... These are excellent points, sbrubbles. Thank you for pointing them out, my suspicion of Radfield has also risen because of this and I look forward to his response. | ||
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On April 24 2012 01:18 strongandbig wrote: When it comes to actual suspects, I'd like to point to Snarfs. He's done a few things so far that make me suspicious. First, we have + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 09:12 Snarfs wrote: I agree with all this also. That said, I agree with the hydra in that it's time to stop talking about the masons and to start hunting scum. In this post, he says that we should be hunting scum, but in none of his later posts does he actually do any scum hunting. My scum hunting method is my own. I like to ask people questions based on their actions when I notice something weird and gauge their responses. Me asking you and Zentor, as well as Ace and Radfield, to explain your actions is my method of scum hunting. Looks like trying to gain town cred for getting us focused when he's actually not adding anything to the discussion. Also note that this comment at this point was not really trying to change the arc of the thread; at the point he made it we were already moving on from the masons discussion. That comment was just me making sure to put my opinions on things in the thread so that people can have an easier time following my thought process later on. The two posts we have from him after that are the following: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 09:21 Snarfs wrote: Speaking of which, I'd like to hear some from Ace, whose posts have almost entirely been about Masons at this point. Ace, what do you think of VE has a lynch candidate? If you had to pick a second candidate, who would it be? I think it would be valuable to have two candidates to consider going into the last 18 or so hours before the lynch. + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 15:31 Snarfs wrote: These are excellent points, sbrubbles. Thank you for pointing them out, my suspicion of Radfield has also risen because of this and I look forward to his response. Neither of these actually lays out an opinion on who is playing scummy and who we should actually vote for. Again more behaving like he's moving discussion along without actually contributing. Especially with his "suspiciousness of radfield" post, this looks a lot like trying to bandwagon onto a case without actually contributing anything to said case. I did think twice about posting that, but I figured since I was just about to head to bed and wouldn't be posting for a while that, again, I should put my thoughts down on the activity that had occurred over the 5 or 6 hours since my last post. Finally, here's his first major post (and the only post in which he actually expresses opinions): + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 03:11 Snarfs wrote: Couple of things to comment on in the beginning. First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) Let's look at both of the points he makes here. First, his response to my mason encryption plan is nonsensical. It's a plan that would, I admit, only help town in maybe 1% of situations, but could literally not possibly hurt the town. It died, I believe, mostly because Ace was dismissive and seems to be leading the whole "mason theory" discussion; that's not actually out of character to me, Ace seems pretty dismissive in general of plans that aren't his. However, the first few reactions to the plan are still interesting. Snarfs's seems like what I would expect from a scum reaction to a complex or convoluted townie plan; dismissal without actually engaging the details, as well as accusations being thrown around. Additionally, if you look at my post, the real filler wasn't the encrypted message stuff; it was me trying to work through the scenarios that could come out of a mason claim. I was responding to the question Ace asked, when he asked for reactions to his mason plan. To reiterate, my point was that you were using a very large post to not do any actual scumhunting. That is where I still stand on the usefulness of that post. Maybe it's just me, but I don't believe that all the effort going into setup speculation is really worthwhile or meaning when it is just that: speculation. Now, look at his arguments on MrZentor. Note that he calls him out for being weird and not townie without actually accusing him of being scum or anti-town. He doesn't take a position on whether or not Zentor is scum or town at all, just saying he could be anti-town. I didn't think he was scummy or I would have said it. I said exactly what I intended to say: That his posting style was abrasive and could only hurt town. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the game and then see later on if they are willing to consider my thoughts. Then there's the little comment blurb. None of the things he says there are actually meaningful, but seem like they might be an attempt to jump in on a discussion that already happened without actually adding anything new to the topic. Snarfs, J'Accuse! ##vote: Snarfs I believe you want: Je t'accuse Now if you'll give me a little bit, I need to read through the thread again and see if I can pick up what sandroba was saying about Forumite. | ||
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On April 24 2012 01:36 prplhz wrote: ##Vote Snarfs I can understand s&b's vote because he's never really seen me play before outside of SS Mafia, but this one I can't quite figure out. | ||
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I think the best lynch would be a marvellosity lynch. All he's done this game is soft-defend Forumite, VE, MrZentor and Ace. That and ask for filters. My vote will stay on him unless I need to change it to consolidate for a lynch on someone else I wouldn't mind lynching. From my point of view, it's too early to lynch into the pool of potentially amazing town players when nothing stands out as really scummy yet. ##Vote marvellosity | ||
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What do you guys think about a marvellosity lynch? strongandbig and prplhz, what makes me a better lynch than him? Of the other players who have votes on them already, I'd probably prefer a Radfield over a Zentor, mainly based on the difference in effort between I'm a Cop You Idiot and this game. In this game, his vote on VE was apparently just a pressure vote and he's happy leaving it there as opposed to someone who he actually thinks might be mafia: As far as VE goes, he still has not commented since I put my vote down. My intention was simply to apply pressure and see how he reacted, but he has not posted/reacted at all. At this point I'm willing to keep my vote there. | ||
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On April 24 2012 04:21 marvellosity wrote: s&b's effort on Snarfs is the best I've seen so far, and due to my own failure to make good scum-reads, that will be where my vote will rest atm. ##Vote: Snarfs Did you read my response to his case? I addressed everything he said. Also, why would you choose to sheep s&b when there are probably at least a half dozen more reputedly decent scum hunters in this game? | ||
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On April 24 2012 04:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, as it stands right now, town is going to have to massively consolidate just to GET a lynch. What do you guy suggest? One of MrZentor or Snarfs? They're the leading candidates with 2 votes, one of MrZentors being his own. I think Zentor is town, and I don't think he'll end up voting for himself, so I'd have to go with Snarfs...but Snarfs looks town to me too. There seems to be a consensus behind a Radfield lynch, would you guys join me in lynching him over an inactive I feel has a huge chance of flipping scum? Other than these options, it's looking like a No Lynch situation to me. While I did find his actions suspicious, I don't think that he's a better lynch than marvel right now. The problem I have with lynching Radfield day 1 is that if he can provide the kind of analysis later on in the game that he provided in the last game he played, then it would be a huge waste. Plus, if he's town, isn't he usually target number 1 for the night? Scum would have to deal with him and I'd rather not do their work for them. That being said, if he's scum, then we should have a much better idea of that day 2. | ||
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On April 24 2012 06:11 MrZentor wrote: Hey guys! Here are my thoughts. Forumrite and Prphlz are being stupid for attacking me even though it's obvious that I'm innocent. I have a feeling scum would switch over to an easier lynch such as Marv or Sbrubbles. Everybody who keeps repeating how innocent I am is annoying for being ridiculously ridiculously redundant. I feel at this point talking about how innocent I am is like talking about what the masons should do. We need to do four things. 1. Decide if we have a lynch or not- I feel we should because of what somebody said about it not helping us all if we don't lynch somebody, because we'll end up losing on the same day anyways. 2. Decide if we want to lynch a lurker or an active person- I would like to lynch a lurker, because currently there isn't any solid case on any active person, and I would prefer to lose a lurker over an active person. 3. Lower the number of possible lynch victims- I believe right now 6 different people are being voted for. That means scum have complete control of the lynch; we need to have 1-2 suspects, or we're not going to get a good lynch. 4. We need to decide who to lynch. I'll be back soon with a suitable lurker to lynch. I really don't like this post from Zentor. His first sentence is just WIFOM. The four part list reminds me a lot of the first half of this post from Death Factory 2. This seems really scummy to me, like a post for the sake of posting, but I wasn't getting a scum read from MrZentor at the beginning of the day so I'm not sure. I think I'd be fine with a no lynch in this situation as well. | ||
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On April 24 2012 06:38 Snarfs wrote: I think I'd be fine with a no lynch in this situation as well. EBWOP: To clarify - lynch marv > no lynch > lynch Zentor (in my mind). | ||
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On April 24 2012 06:47 Ace wrote: @Snarfs: Where are the posts that show marvelosity soft defending players? I admit I could have read further into it than it really was, but it definitely stood out as the only thing in his filter at the time I posted: Defending: Forumite (that's who Zentor was calling thick), VE, Mr Zentor thrice, and Ace. I prefer to let people answer questions about their play themselves which is why I called him out on it. | ||
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On April 24 2012 07:05 marvellosity wrote: Considerably more people trying to prevent my lynch than there are scum, in fact... What's your defense here, that town is preventing your mislynch or that scum is NOT preventing your mislynch? Please pick one... | ||
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On April 24 2012 06:03 marvellosity wrote: I would like to note that there has been no opposition to the growing bandwagon of my lynch when clearly scum has had the options to direct the vote almost anywhere with a maximum of 2 votes on any one person. On April 24 2012 06:30 marvellosity wrote: Sigh. I dislike the fact that I'm scummy because I've not been able to form a decent read although I have been extremely transparent about it. I dislike the fact no-one answered my questions on VE/Radfield cases. I dislike the fact that there's been no opposition to my lynch. Objectively the way this lynch is going down is making it pretty clear this is going to be a mislynch. On April 24 2012 06:58 marvellosity wrote: The thing that ISN'T circumstancial is the fact that the lynch on me gently drifted into being without anyone trying to prevent it. You should be able to discern the difference between the two. Engage logic please. On April 24 2012 07:05 marvellosity wrote: Considerably more people trying to prevent my lynch than there are scum, in fact... Just an observation. | ||
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On April 24 2012 07:29 Ace wrote: I actually don't see those as defending any of us. More like an alternative explanation to the results someone is else is suggesting. His comment on me talking game mechanics is in line with the same thing I said. Likewise, he is right that Zentor calling someone thick when he voted for himself to start the game is... If he is defending Forumite from Zentor, and then defends Zentor 3 times all on Day 1 then I think at best he is just one of those people that always responds to every post in an effort to be as transparent as possible. Or yea, maybe he is just Scum trying to fake a contribution. Defending Zentor 3 times who isn't a good player at all is lol worthy. It certainly makes more sense in the context of him knowing that he isn't a strong day 1 player. In that case it could merely be seen as an attempt at contributing. I did not look at his previous games before posting that. | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:04 wherebugsgo wrote: + Show Spoiler [Finalvote] + Final Vote Count Spin 1 MrZentor (4) MrZentor Forumite prplhz strongandbig Marvellosity (4) Snarfs phagga SamuelLJackson Sbrubbles no-lynch (3) VisceraEyes Radfield marvellosity Radfield (2) Bluelightz Ace VisceraEyes (0) Snarfs (0) Ace (0) Sbrubbles (0) MrZentor actually voted for no-lynch here. He just didn't make it bold. | ||
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On April 24 2012 06:55 Radfield wrote: ##vote no lynch catching up Once you're done catching up, I'd love to hear your thoughts on day 1. | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:07 MrZentor wrote: Any reason you guys will put up with posts like this? Just curious like. I'm curious why you never voted prplhz. | ||
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How do you go from this: On April 24 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote: I don't think sbrubbles or snarfs are very good lynches. Honestly, I don't really feel like doing the last hour scramble, and I don't think we will net scum doing that anyways. I'd be fine with a marvellosity or bluelightz lynch, but I doubt that gets us anywhere either. However, no-lynching doesn't really do us any good. Right now we have lylo on day 4(assuming no SK), and if we no-lynch we still have mylo on Day 4. However, if there IS a serial killer in the mix, every extra townie will count. To this: On April 24 2012 06:55 Radfield wrote: ##vote no lynch catching up | ||
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If you're town then you're likely to die tonight anyways, so why save your reads for the next 5 hours rather than give them now? If you're going to die, I would like a chance to discuss your reads with you before that happens. Also, it seems more likely that scum would let you live if you were wrong than that they would be more inclined to kill you if you're right. They're probably going to assume you're right until you say something wrong. Just WIFOM, I know, but a thought | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:39 Forumite wrote: Was the case on Marvel that strong? What I saw at the time felt like it was more about him staying under the radar than him actually doing anything weird, on the other hand my readthrough was kind of rushed with just an hour before the lynch. I'm curious if you think "staying under the radar" is a town-tell or a scum-tell. The reason I called out marvellous are because I thought this "staying under the radar" was a scum-tell, do you think differently? Keep in mind that while I pointed out what I believed were soft-defences of other players (they may have just been marv contributing in his own way), the main emphasis of my point was that that was all he had done at that point in time. How do you expect scum to act? All in your face like MrZentor? Also, VisceraEyes has disappeared again. This does not sit well with me. | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:14 Forumite wrote: The other way around, I hadn´t seen anything weird from Marvel, which made me think he was town with a slow start. I understand how several got suspicious of him precisely because he hadn´t done much, I just didn´t pick up on that at the time of the lynch. Okay. What do you think of VE disappearing combined with his contributions so far? | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote: :/ I was hoping Sandro would come in and balance out some of this Toad. Not that I disliked Toad's posting (in spite of the majority of it being about me :S), but there was just so much TOAD and so little Sandro. Unless Rad and Ace are both scum (imba?) I have to believe that Rad is telling the truth about his claim. However, unlike Radfield I'm not so willing to dismiss the idea that Ace is GF based on "Radfield's luck". However, facts is facts, and I don't see Radfield fake-claiming DT just to clear someone. Therefor, I'm willing to believe Radfield's claim and I'm also willing to reserve judgement on Ace until I see more of his play. I didn't mind it so much yesterday, but today MrZentor's self-vote seems...very strange. Like, he claims the point yesterday was to gauge reactions and stuff, but he never unvoted and he never really did anything with that information. And today, it feels more like trying to stay consistent - I mean, what reactions are there to gauge that he couldn't have observed yesterday? I don't like it. MrZentor, can you explain in detail why you felt the need to vote for yourself again today? There you are! What happened to the VE from C9++? . So you mislynched C_C... coulda happened to anyone! You were still awesome at finding scum and I wouuldn't mind your help on this one as well! So, get back in the game, man! Be that awesome dominating VE we all love! Find us some scum! | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:31 VisceraEyes wrote: No one loves "dominating VE", but I'll certainly try and keep more active than most of D1. /salute How do you feel about MrZentor? I feel like a lot of people were throwing around "town" a lot in conjunction with MrZentor, so the fact that he didn't die overnight is kinda surprising to me. Taken with his mystifying self-vote immediately into D2, what do you think about him now? I feel like he's playing weird, just like everyone else feels. Whether it's weird town or weird scum is hard to tell. I really didn't like his list, as I mentioned. I also don't like the fact that currently, since he's discounted prplhz, he doesn't have a single scum read down in thread. Why would a town person not want his scum-reads in the thread to discuss with others. The only explanation I can think of there is that he thinks he's better than everyone else in the game and wants to do all the work himself. Judging by the player list, I doubt this is the case. One thing to note is he got quite cocky as scum near the end of DFM2. Perhaps this has carried over to this game. | ||
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##Vote MrZentor | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:31 VisceraEyes wrote: No one loves "dominating VE" Off-topic, but I do <3. Scum hates it a lot more than town does. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:30 MrZentor wrote: I hope you guys know I'm getting some really good information. Anyways, masons need to claim before I'm gonna point out the scum. There's no guarantee that there are masons. How long are you going to wait? | ||
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Here are my thoughts on Radfield's claim: It does nothing for us until he dies. There is absolutely no reason to believe that there couldn't be multiple one-shot cops - he even admits that he knows that wbg tweaked the setup - so his reason for believing him is bogus. Furthermore, if there is another one-shot cop, there is no guarantee that they used their check night 1. There are too many assumptions and Radfield should have known this. Also, the fact that there are potential Godfathers and Framers makes the claim even more dubious. Granted, I wouldn't pick Ace as a potential Frame night 1, I also probably wouldn't have picked Ace to check night 1 and that's just guessing at what mafia would do. Radfield is putting way too much trust in his role when he says "At any rate, this should confirm Ace as town to everyone." Noone is confirmed town until they're dead. Radfield should know this too. Why would he claim when Ace probably wasn't on the hook today anyways? All you're going to do is make people who believe your claim not look as hard at Ace, which is probably the last thing this town should be doing considering the reputation he has as a mafia player. Finally, some important questions for Radfield: Why did you claim when you did rather than wait and see a bit how the day played out and use your knowledge to help guide the town discussion rather than just drop a bomb and then Why did you check Ace (someone who you said you can never read properly), rather than SamuelLJackson (you thought sandro was playing scum), phagga (who you said looks scummy), or bluelightz (who you said you would think is scum if you didn't have previous knowledge)? Did you not want to maximize your chance of hitting scum with your check by using it on phagga? For me, this does not let Radfield off the hook in any way. I apologize if you really are town and I'm just wasting your time, but I'm still going to expect some good analysis and scumhunting before the day is over. | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:59 SamuelLJackson wrote: My strongest mafia reads right now are rad + forumite + marv, just for the record. Rad being #1, unsure about forumite and marv is basicly a filler that makes sense. Just in case of preemptive faceloseage. --- Toad | ||
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On April 25 2012 20:16 Bluelightz wrote: Sup bros, my blue mind say's that The Zentor lynch is moving too easy ( as radfield has already mentioned). For now, as a preemptive guess on who is scum it is: Snarfs, strongandbig, and a veteran player. Snarfs because: Snarfs and s&b seem to be trying to distance themselves from each other, also that, he is pushing the easy targets today, Next, I find it odd that he picked s&b out of all people to call out in his first few posts. Lastly, I see a problem with how HE scum hunts, I don't see how asking someone to explain their action's is an effective way to scum hunt, I think that it is easy for one to make one's action's look town. strongandbig because: First, because oddly he picked Snarfs to make a case on, I feel that they are trying to distance themselves from each other, next, in his first post he spent an awful amount of space for a way for people to breaccrumb stuff -.-. Lastly, he made an awful sheep vote on Zentor. Honestly I think both could be town, but I have a feeling that there's scum in them, just maybe, ##Vote: strongandbig For now. I'm going to ignore the circular reasoning part of this (which actually no longer stands since now you think strongandbig is town?) and just try and satisfy your desire for me to respond to the other two points. For the record, I don't think anything you said here makes any sense, but I think you've played fairly townie all game so I want to alleviate your concerns. RE: Pushing the easy target today - Zentor is anti-town. He should be lynched or play pro-town. That being said, I do believe that if he is town, he thinks that he's just so much smarter than everyone else and that it's worth wasting an entire day of scum-hunting so that he can play his little games to find the scum for us. Either way, he should be lynched, on one hand because he's scum and on the other because it should be a policy around here to lynch people like this because otherwise they're giving scum an excuse to play scummy as fuck, which we don't want. RE: Asking people to explain their actions not being effective scum hunting - I disagree. | ||
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On April 25 2012 23:25 phagga wrote: EBWOP ok I rushed my post... the formatting is off and the first part of forumite was not supposed to be part of this post, but whatever. What was the part about forumite supposed to be part of? | ||
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On April 26 2012 01:37 marvellosity wrote: I wouldn't lynch anyone besides the guy who is playing a lot more scummy than anyone else. Sigh, you're doing an amazing job at sheeping Ace. | ||
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On April 26 2012 01:49 marvellosity wrote: Alright. Ask me a specific question and I will do my best to answer it. I just see no point in answering the "besides the scummy guy, who would you lynch?", because... we lynch the scummy guy. Fine, let me rephrase the question. Besides, MrZentor, who do you think is scum? I'm not trying to suggest we switch lynches today. I'm just trying to see some of your original thoughts. | ||
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On April 26 2012 02:07 marvellosity wrote: That's the same question, I understand you weren't suggesting we switch lynches for today. But, nonetheless - I was somewhat irritated by Radfield's cop claim, as realistically for now I think it has to be accepted it. But there has been something off about his posts. This was directed at Bluelightz, but I'm linking it as relevant to what he thinks townies should be doing. Mini jab at Zentor, ok. Now Zentor seems townie because of his faux-case at the start of Day 1. I dislike this "above and beyond what I would expect of a mafia player". Mafia players as a tendency don't simply play to people's expectations, otherwise they'd be easier to find. I just don't understand this. Strongly townie aligned by a non-case followed by incessant trolling? What? This is still bullshit to me. The case on Zentor is that he's been scummy and not playing pro-town, therefore he is town? Crap reasoning. Here I would remind you of the quote from earlier, how Radfield would want townie to play: How does this hold up to his opinion on Zentor in any way? It doesn't. Just going through filter I find it amazing how many times he's defended Zentor because he's been playing too trolly/confident - despite it being the opposite of what he expects a good townie to be doing. Thank you. This is actually really helpful for town (whether you're town or scum), and it both echoes some concerns I've had about Radfield, as well as brings up some new ones. My main question is this: Why is Radfield more concerned with telling us how innocent MrZentor is than pushing an alternative target who he thinks might actually be scum? It seems so scum-motivated. But, I agree that we have to give his claim the benefit of the doubt and see what he can come up with for reads tonight. If he is lying it will bite him in the ass later so I'm trying to focus my attention elsewhere for now. | ||
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On April 26 2012 02:37 strongandbig wrote: Also for some reason every time I try to preview this post the bolding on Ace and VE's names doesn't show up. Hopefully it will show up in the actual post but if it doesn't, just mentally bold it for me. + Show Spoiler [Offtopic] + There are some Bluelightz quotes in there which are missing the closing bracket on the [ /b ] tag. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:52 MrZentor wrote: 1. I'll wait for around another 20 hours max for the masons. Time's up. | ||
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On April 26 2012 06:06 Ace wrote: Don't tell me you actually believed him hahahaha Can't say I didn't expect more effort (from scum or town). | ||
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On April 27 2012 07:49 Radfield wrote: A shocking turn of events. Perhaps now we can focus on actual candidates. If anyone mentions lynching bluelightz tomorrow(our other easy lynch) I'm going to be very sad. Time to go in depth on Phagga. + Show Spoiler + I saw your posts Phagga, and I wasn't ignoring you. I've just been short of time to put in the legwork necessary to go beyond an initial bare bones scum-read. I think you'll find a few jabs at Bluelightz in phagga's filter. This is like, the best game I've seen Bluelightz play in. | ||
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On April 27 2012 07:58 Ace wrote: Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow. You never say whether you agree with a BL lynch. Do you? | ||
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On April 27 2012 08:34 Forumite wrote: Snarfs, what is your opinion on Sbrubbles? Have you played with him before? I've played with him once before in DFM2. I think he's town, probably one of the least suspicious people in my opinion. He hasn't posted a lot, but I don't think that that's a scumtell. When he has posted, he's made it clear what his opinions are on certain people. He's called out people he thought were suspicious, for good reasons, even when there was no attention directed towards them, which has made him stand out in a good way. That and I agree with lots of what he's saying. I wish he would post more, but that's honestly my only complaint so far with his play. | ||
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 I don't think I did, but it doesn't matter, you answered Radfield which answered me! | ||
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On April 27 2012 10:02 Radfield wrote: This is some weak weak sauce Snarfs. I have been trying to find scum too, and Zentor impinged not one bit on my abilities to do so. Why is VE at the top of your scum list? Who else do you see as scum right now? Who is unlynchablely town in your eyes(and why)? On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote: A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Please don't try and undermine my saying something that you completely agree with. MrZentor provided an extremely easy wagon for scum to do whatever the hell they wanted with. VE is at the top of my list because: A) I find everyone voting for a mislynch day 1 suspicious B) I found VE's not voting particularly suspicious because he said that he would be fine lynching marv until your conveniently placed idea (convenient from his point of view) C) I still have no idea why he is so much more convinced that Sbrubbles is more scummy than phagga or marv or Ace D) His level of care for this game seems about 1/4 what I would expect from a town-VE I'm also highly considering Ace as scum because of his attempt to setup Bluelightz for tomorrow which I think is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing he has going for him, in my opinion, is the green check which you made on him. Zentor was an easy lynch, day 1 was an easy no-lynch, and Bluelightz is always an easy target for scum to throw suspicion on. I would also consider one of marv/phagga/sbrubbles scum, but their play needs to be scrutinized more closely before I can definitely place them. However, sbrubbles would be most likely to be town out of that group, marv/phagga is still a tossup for me. I wouldn't lynch yourself, prplhz, or Forumite. prplhz and Forumite because they went after MrZentor extremely hard the entire game and I don't think scum would do that because it looks terrible when he flips town. You, because you're trying hard to find scum... and the whole cop thing. That leaves Bluelightz and strongandbig. strongandbig's probably town and Bluelightz is actually putting in a lot of effort this game so I'd keep him around because if he's scum he'll crumble when his scumbuddy/ies start dying. Anything else? | ||
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On April 27 2012 10:51 marvellosity wrote: I disagree with this line of reasoning. Going after Zentor hard this game has been a very easy thing to do and him flipping town is almost irrelevant to this after the content of his posts. That's a good point. I'm going to go back later tonight/tomorrow and check the timings of the prods/attacks and see if I get a different feeling. From what I recall though, they both seemed to attack him pretty early and pushed for his lynched quite hard day 1 which, if it had been successful, would have put them in the spotlight quite dramatically. | ||
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On April 27 2012 11:01 Radfield wrote: Does anyone disagree with my setup assessment? With zero claimed roleblocks and no SK, I think we can safely assume that we have 1 goon 1 godfather and 1 power role. I don't like putting too much weight into setup speculation. Bugs is neither going to confirm nor deny how many scum we have. Whether we have 2 or 3 mafia, we still need to start by lynching 2. | ||
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On April 27 2012 16:10 Bluelightz wrote: @Snarfs could I have your reason on why sbrubbles is more liely to be town? This quote only makes sense from scum if they're planning on fake-claiming mason. Otherwise, they are encouraging dt checks into their own group: If the masons do decide to claim, though, I don't think we should waste town powers confirming them. This quote here shows some actual attempt at scum hunting, trying to discern prplhz's alignment: Prplhz, you're being pretty quiet, which is a bit strange considering your early hustle with MrZentor. Forumite made a case on him and wants him lynched; can you comment on it? What do you think of MrZentor? Would you vote for him? Again, he tries to figure out the alignment of another player: Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now.... His next post, here, is again trying to push Radfield and VisceraEyes. I read it as a clear attempt to gauge the play of these to players. Nothing about it seems faked. This post, here, again, although he is voting for MrZentor, he is attempting to find more scum. He is questioning VE and marvellosity, not just content to lynch the now known town, MrZentor. Finally, here he is willing to switch his vote from MrZentor to VE. Why would scum care about that if they already know MrZentor is town? On April 26 2012 21:15 Sbrubbles wrote: Actually no you didn't. You didn't answer my question at all. I'm not sure you even READ it. Let me rephrase it for you. Radfield's post: + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote: I don't think sbrubbles or snarfs are very good lynches. Honestly, I don't really feel like doing the last hour scramble, and I don't think we will net scum doing that anyways. I'd be fine with a marvellosity or bluelightz lynch, but I doubt that gets us anywhere either. However, no-lynching doesn't really do us any good. Right now we have lylo on day 4(assuming no SK), and if we no-lynch we still have mylo on Day 4. However, if there IS a serial killer in the mix, every extra townie will count. I'm just feeling a bit apathetic towards the lynch and don't feel like forcing through a mediocre candidate(again). Also, lynching me day 1 is never a good idea. Have you ever notice how pretty much the only time townies find me scummy on day 1 is when I am town? Man, I really don't have the energy for this right now. Apologies all, I will try to pick it up tonight. Notice how it says nothing about either 1) marv's meta, 2) marv's innocence, 3) marv's previous games or 4) prefering a no-lynch to lynching someone. In fact, he even considers lynching marv as an option, though he changes his mind later. He didn't "feel like forcing through a mediocre candidade", but that only means he didn't want to be the one pushing for marv. How can someone saying "I'm fine with a marvellosity lynch" lead you to rethinking about lynching him??? + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: Rad made me rethink voting marv - I went back and reread the beginning of his newbie game that I read and he did find himself the victim of early suspicion. I'm willing to no-lynch in this situation. In my opinion a no-lynch is better than a mislynch in this situation and I'm not confident enough in any of the lurkers anymore - there has been a lot of activity here toward the end, and it's hard to tell if it's because there's a scum candidate or because no one wants a no-lynch or what. What do you think Toad? Do you think we should lynch a lurker or no-lynch? I'm okay with no-lynching to be frank. Also, I DID comment on MrZentor. You're the one not reading through the thread. But here's a hint for you. ##unvote MrZentor ##vote VisceraEyes I'll go back to MrZentor if it's necessary for a majority. All these things lead me to believe quite reasonably that sbrubbles is town. | ||
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On April 27 2012 17:21 Bluelightz wrote: Snarfs, the 'Sbrubbles is scumhunting' quotes are first, getting someone else's opinion on stuff(Like what im doin with asking you on why you think brubbles is town), second quote, brubbles could just be really throwing random reads to 'look' like he's contributing. Anyway, rethinking brubbles I guess. Sure, anyone could always just be throwing random reads to look like they're contributing. But that's not how I see it. Some things I pointed out might not be as much of a town-tell as the others, the parts you pointed out being some of the weaker. Look at the whole picture though. WHY, as scum, would I tell dts to check me and my mafia buddies if they think I'm suspicious? Why, as scum, would I care about possibly changing my vote from MrZentor, a town who is very easy to lynch, to VisceraEyes? These things don't add up, in my opinion. | ||
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On April 27 2012 17:32 phagga wrote: prplhz: He is suspicious at least. Had Zentor turned scum, he would have been semi-confirmed town after tunneling him so hard. Now it's possible he just used it as an excuse to not participate in scum hunting D2. He voted Snarfs on D1 without any reason after attacking Zentor already. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 00:52 prplhz wrote: "being scum" is a pretty good reason for lynching people but I don't know if anybody is scum. I think that his defense of MrZentor was really weird and he's no where near as active as I'd like him to be. I don't want to lynch him as much as I want to lynch MrZentor right now but I think that a lot of people still need to speak up before I can make my mind up. MrZentor is the best thing right now in my opinion but I don't think it's bulletproof at all. On April 24 2012 01:36 prplhz wrote: ##Vote Snarfs On April 24 2012 05:32 prplhz wrote: Yea I'm against Radfield/Ace/SamuelLJackson lynches too, lets stop even discussing them. 90 minutes until lynch, I'll be here up until deadline (horay eurofriendly deadlines!) Honestly, if I had a gun I'd shoot MrZentor. His initial aggression seems fake to me and he's pretty much quit this game and apparently doesn't want to be a part of the lynch. It's just too much bullshit and I see no explanation for this. I think he should be our go-to-lynch today. @phagga Why are you buddying me? Especially, you complain when marvellosity voted for Snarfs because he did so on bad reasonable, but I never ever put any reasonable at all and you didn't complain about that. prplhz, you never explained why you voted snarf, what was up with that? Also note how he was active at game start, but then gradually got less active, and has been lurking almost all of D2 (his last post is over 30 hours old). All this together make him suspicious for me, but it's not enough to lynch him today. I really look forward to hear some scum suspects from him including some reasoning why. Part of the quotes you linked include this snippet: Yea I'm against Radfield/Ace/SamuelLJackson lynches too, lets stop even discussing them. Why would scum ever advocate against the lynching of strong town players? The only reason would be to buy town-cred, but there are ways to do that without specifically telling people not to lynch strong town players. This sentence screams town to me. | ||
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On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote: I postulate that Ace intentionally plays scummy as town so that when he's scum he can play scummy and get away with it. I further postulate that this makes his town play less helpful to the town than it makes his scum play helpful to the scum team. The clear solution is to lynch Ace every game until he shapes up. That probably won't happen this game, but it's definitely something to think about. I thought about this, but the problem I have with this theory is that you'd have to accept the following to reach your conclusion: Premiss: Ace is willing to admit to himself that he is not a good enough player to play well both as town and mafia. I do not accept this premiss; therefore, I think Ace is scum. | ||
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On April 27 2012 08:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't agree that BL is even a proper candidate - and I find it odd that Rad and Ace both seem to think he's the "easy lynch". This game is...very odd. I'll post my final thoughts before dawn. Can you post them now? You are near the top of a few scum lists that I've seen floating around so I wouldn't worry about mafia targetting you. | ||
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On April 28 2012 05:30 Ace wrote: Like I said in my previous post's about this topic: I tried to stop the Zentor train but everyone never bothered to read his meta or believe me. Could you answer my question about Ace? Also, who would list as your top 3 scum candidates? Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta. It can't be both. [/QUOTE] Yes, it can. Why can't he both be trying to prevent the Zentor lynch AND keep discussion going? These do not scream mutually exclusive to me. | ||
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On April 28 2012 05:30 Ace wrote: Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta. It can't be both. Yes, it can. Why can't he both be trying to prevent the Zentor lynch AND keep discussion going? These do not scream mutually exclusive to me. | ||
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Sorry I couldn't be on at deadline, had to drive my girlfriend around a bit to get her wisdom teeth out .Thanks for the good work Radfield! | ||
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On April 28 2012 19:45 marvellosity wrote: The entire VE part of my argument is just ridiculous. All the voting on Day 1 is nonsense as VE didn't need to vote or not vote for me for me not to get lynched. As mentioned above VE did not know he was going to die tonight, so why would he be making a case against me under the reasonable assumption that I would live? If we're playing percentages, the percentages are very much that VE is living through the night (how can he have expected to be shot?) and was setting up what he regarded as one of the easier lynches the next day. My 'stepping in to answer for VE' is in fact - 'pointing out what you should have been able to read yourself, you bloody idiot, but here I am having to do basic comprehensive skills for you'. I also thought it was quite clear that I never voted for Snarfs because I was certain of it, I voted for him because it was the best case I had read thus far. Thusly: The entire VE connection case is simply weak sauce. Radfield thinks I am town. If you're going to make a case, please make a case that's made of something. The entire thrust of a case against me should be that I haven't managed to scumhunt, which is an accusation I can't easily brush away. Your case however is easily brushed away based on weak circumstance and connection. marv, your entire defense is that: 1. VE didn't know he was going to be shot. 2. Radfield thinks you are town 3. That the case didn't focus on the real scummy part of your play, even though it does include that too 1 Can not be assumed. Even before sbrubbles posted his case you try really hard to make sure everyone is aware the VE didn't know he was going to get shot. You are so damn sure of it, which doesn't make sense. I made this post meaning to imply that I, or any vigilante really, was likely to shoot VE: On April 28 2012 05:39 Snarfs wrote: Can you post them now? You are near the top of a few scum lists that I've seen floating around so I wouldn't worry about mafia targetting you. The bolded part specifically. Now, I'm not going to assume that VE picked up on that, but considering it was meant for him to pick up on so that I could see his defense, I'm not going to assume he didn't pick up on it either. 2 Can not be assumed either. Radfield did not see the flip, he did not have time to go back and reread the thread knowing VE was scum. Plus, even if he does think you're town, so what? Radfield is not infallible and that is a terribly contrived defense. 3 As for you claiming that Sbrubbles' case is "easily brushed away based on weak circumstance and connection": sounds like you're trying to undermine his case. He clearly mentions your lack of content and scumhunting. It is my opinion that rather than brush these parts of his case aside by claiming they're not even there, you should address them AND remedy them, or else my vote will remain on you today. ##Vote marvellosity @strongandbig: I'd really value your input on this one since you played through the entire newbie game with marv where you were both town. What is your feeling on marvellosity? | ||
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On April 28 2012 23:52 Ace wrote: Probable but why didn't he begin setting up VE during Night 2 or at the very end of Day 1? There was a lot of discussion going on and VEs name was off the radar. If he wanted to bus VE that would have been the perfect time to remind everyone "hey, VE is still a top suspect". I think it is very likely that once Radfield flipped blue (which VE and his scumbuddies would know was going to happen), VE would be the lynch target for the day, or VE knew that he was also likely to be vigged (see above). EITHER WAY, at that point it makes sense to prepare for the situation. However, I don't think the VE case on marv is the most suspicious part of their interaction, though it does add some weight. I think you should pay close attention to day 1. You said yourself, it didn't seem like VE cared who died. Yet, he refuses to place his vote on marv, even after claiming that he would be fine with a marv vote. He draws attention to himself by doing this. The only reason I can think a scum would risk drawing attention to themselves is to save another scum. What do you think about that? | ||
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I noticed you were asking for previous filters from Bluelightz's scum games. What did you make of that? Quick question: anyone know which games Bluelightz played scum in of late please? What do you think of Ace's pressure on Bluelightz? And finally, how would you compare strongandbig's play in the newbie game you played together to this game? | ||
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On April 28 2012 19:45 marvellosity wrote: If you're going to make a case, please make a case that's made of something. The entire thrust of a case against me should be that I haven't managed to scumhunt, which is an accusation I can't easily brush away. Your case however is easily brushed away based on weak circumstance and connection. On April 29 2012 07:52 marvellosity wrote: My not-so-solid scumread at the moment is on Sbrubbles. Unfortunately my feelings on him make me a hypocrite with how I've attacked the case on me based on the VE connection. I feel like the interaction between Sbrubbles and VE suggest a connection. VE pressures Sbrubbles and generally talks about him quite a lot (more than me) as part of his lurker connection. VE also calls Sbrubbles scum and a response somewhere very scummy. He keeps calling him scum when it doesn't matter and fake-pushing him. When the game is getting more serious just before VE gets shot, VE completely abandons any case on Sbrubbles to make a case on Radfield/me. From Sbrubbles perspective he puts some pressure on VE day 1, and even votes for him twice. He votes for VE but says "he will vote for zentor for a majority" - i.e. this is a safe vote on VE at the moment as he's under no risk and will happily go back to zentor. There is then his case here on me which heavily involves VE, which I find to be an interesting psychological mistake. Really, VE and Sbrubbles have been distancing themselves all game, and now VE makes a case on me and miraculously Sbrubbles makes a case on me, with quite a large part dedicated to VE. The problem with all this is that from any of you guys perspective (and also mine, I suppose) it's all WIFOM and you have no particular reason to believe me ahead of Sbrubbles. I don't have a strong scum-read in the typical 'this all reeks of mafia motivation', and I went over phagga/prplhz/forumite/sbrubbles filters. s&b I think is probably town from his posts, and I can't really read Ace very well but a lot of what he says makes sense. This leaves me with my gut read on the Sbrubbles and VE interactions that I have here. Quit being a hypocrite and give me a real case on someone. I'm still fine with either a marvellosity or an Ace lynch. I think both of them need to die before lylo anyways unless they show us some actual desire to find scum. | ||
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You think marvel is probably town right? Do you think that this looks like scum jumping on a town wagon: On April 29 2012 08:39 Forumite wrote: I´m here. I´m trying to make sense of this but too tired/confused. I was so close to throwing in with Sbrubbles. When I first saw the case it made perfect sense, the distancing, the Radfield+Marv case, where Rad got shot, making the case fall apart, so Marv looks town, while VE gets towncred for scumhunting. Right now I don´t know. Marv made an OMGUS on Sbrubbles, but it wasn´t an OMGUS, he´s so damn calm about it even when half the town are preparing to lynch him. On April 30 2012 00:30 Forumite wrote: Fuck it, I`m going with my first strong gut feeling. I'm agreeing with Sbrubbles case on Marv. I think what happened at the end of the night was that VE intentionally made a case on Rad+Marv in order to make both him and Marv look good when Radfield died. On the flipside, Marv is talking about VE a lot. ##Vote marvellosity I´m going to be out of contact for a few hours, should be back about 2 hours before the lynch. I hope it´s enough time to consolidate our votes and avoid a no-lynch. | ||
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On April 30 2012 03:10 Ace wrote: No. You quoted 2 posts hours apart where the first one looks like Forumite responding to prp about marv and the second one agreeing with Sbrubbles about marv and dropping a vote. Looks like a Townie with suspicion hours before, being convinced by a post that confirms his suspicion and he follows it through. Did you read the original way this marv wagon got started with prp calling him out? Sbrubbles started it. prplhz and I agreed that marv hasn't done anything this game. Forumite gets all wishy-washy, then goes with a "gut read". That's how I read it. Anyways, doesn't actually matter if marv doesn't flip town. Ignoring all the VE-marv interaction WIFOM. What do we have with marv? We have a guy who is in danger of getting lynched day 1, so promises future content for living now: [click] Uses contradicting "observations" to explain why people are voting for him in order to convince people that voting for him is not legitimate: [click] Tries to put suspicion on Radfield for thinking MrZentor is town (WIFOM): [click, click] Despite promising future content, does not provide any until pressed to do so: [click, click] And finally, when giving content, contradicts himself by creating a case against someone based entirely on connections, when he stated himself that the case on him was weak as shit based on connections: [click] Tell me Ace, and anybody not voting marv for that matter, where in all of this, do you see town? | ||
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prplhz, if you're not scum, I will eat blazinghand's hat. | ||
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strongandbig wasn't even being considered by anyone except by you, apparently. I had a look back over his filter and the context of his posts and in no way do I see a scum motive. Again, you try to setup tomorrow's lynch at the end of today and cause a bunch of confusion. This is the second time that you've done this this game! I ask you again, are you serious!? | ||
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Let me just walk away from the thread for a minute to clear my head. Also, it's not "my lynch" that you're stomping on. | ||
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Snarfs' Night 3 Thoughts Read the whole thing. It's important. prplhz and Ace are the remaining scum 1. prplhz The bulk of my case is on his day 3 actions. However, for completeness I have analyzed his play chronologically. Please read it all. Day 1: prplhz starts by saying that MrZentor is the lynch of the day: [click] However, 18 minutes after strongandbig makes a large case on me, he votes me without a single question about the case, nor a comment on why he's voting me: [click] 5 hours later after asked about it, he gives a very weak reason: [click] Why would a town prplhz not try to be very clear about his reasoning or question why/who he is voting? He doesn't even question me at all! He spends the entire first day asking MrZentor to explain himself for his crazy, erratic behaviour, but he doesn't ask me a single question, nor does he address my response to strongandbig's case at all. He doesn't care about finding out if I'm actually town. Then, he goes back to questioning MrZentor! Finally 4 minutes before the deadline, he posts a rebuttal to MrZentor's case. click. The timing of this rebuttal is really bad. From a mafia mindset, he is trying to set up the next days lynch early so that there will be as little discussion as possible. There is no town motivation to do this. Only two possible scenarios arise: a massive voteswitch to MrZentor from which town gains no information and mislynches another town, or maybe some town switches but nothing else happens and we no-lynch (which is what happens). If he had actually wanted MrZentor lynched and believed he was scum, he would have posted his case earlier in the day, when he admits he had written it. Otherwise, town has nothing to learn from MrZentor’s lynch. His excuse is that he "didn't know if [he] wanted to lynch MrZentor" [click]. This is not a town excuse. Two things wrong with it: a) His post doesn't even call MrZentor scum. It just outlines how weak of a case MrZentor wrote on prplhz. A weak case is not a reason to lynch someone. b) He's searching for a reason to lynch MrZentor rather than trying to prove that he's scum. This is a mafia mindset. Day 2 prplhz is barely around and goes into lurky-scum mode. He drops his vote on MrZentor then pretty much lurks through the entire day. In the few contributions he makes, he still manages to both try to prevent discussion of reads AND defend VE from Radfield's case: [click] Day 3 If you can read through prplhz's day 3 and come up with any reasoning for what he says and why that makes him town, then I would be amazed. I'll just point out some highlights, but seriously, everyone should reread from about 2.5 hours before the day 3 lynch. It’s very hard to find any town motivation to suggest strongandbig as a lynch candidate, and then try to push him without any discussion. Keep in mind that one of the goals of a mafia team is to deny town information. By lynching marvellosity we gained a lot of information. By lynching strongandbig, or by no-lynching, town gains zero information. I’ve made a note at the bottom of this post about why no-lynching here can help mafia win this game. First off, notice the contradictions prplhz makes. He is saying one thing while doing the complete opposite. He claims repeatedly (4 times) that he doesn't want another no-lynch, yet pushes extremely hard to convince people to switch their votes off marvellosity. I'm going to lynch marvellosity if he's the alternative though 'cause I don't want another day1 no-lynch fiasco. As I already said, I'll mislynch marvellosity just to avoid a day1 fiasco. I said in my very first post 20 minutes ago that I would prefer lynching marvellosity over a no-lynch because that sucked on day1. How the hell is that trying to force no-lynch or derail discussion? @marvellosity You should very seriously consider voting for yourself 1 min before deadline to secure lynch if nobody shows up. Then, in the end of the day, he does not follow through with his word and ends up voting Sbrubbles: [click] This is very similar to VisceraEyes’ play on day 1, something that stood out to other players (Radfield and myself included). Second, notice how, for someone so concerned about making sure we don't no-lynch, he does not care to get organized enough to get people to agree on a lynch target. He starts out by trying to get everyone to consolidate on strongandbig (which I highly doubt he thinks will actually happen), but then 40 minutes before the deadline starts grasping for straws, asking for anybody else to lynch, including throwing out phagga's name: "who the hell knows what phagga is really? He could easily be scum so lets lynch him." [click] Now, if this was a town prplhz, he might very well believe that marvel is town and be trying to convince others to switch to a new target, and I’m sure this is what he’ll argue. However, in this situation, how would attempting to lynch strongandbig and phagga, two people with zero votes on them and no discussion throughout the day, make more sense than lynching Ace, whom people are willing to consolidate on? Personally, I don’t think that prplhz thinks a switch to phagga in the last 40 minutes is actually likely, and I believe that he is looking for one or two people to switch and cause a no-lynch (see end of post for reasons). Third, prplhz is so damn sure that marvellosity is town. -He starts out by repeating that he doesn't think marvellosity is scum: [click, click] -Then all out claims that marv is town: [click, click] I'm town and I was not even close to as sure marvellosity is town as prplhz seems to be here. Sure, I thought there was a pretty good chance near the end of the day, but I still had nagging doubts that would best be served by letting the lynch happen. I'm sure most of my fellow town players did as well. However, prplhz knew for damn sure that marvellosity was town. The only way that is possible is if he's scum. Fourth, his case on strongandbig was clearly thrown together in about the 30 seconds he had when he realized that I was around to call him out on his vote and that I wasn't going to stand for it. -prplhz's case on strongandbig: "his filter is empty, his posting style is weird and he has not been called out yet." [click] The entire case is weak and I'll tell you why scum make up weak cases in case you don't already know. He needs to sow some seeds of doubt about at least one or two other town players in order to win this game. He knows the case is weak. That's why it looks as weak as it does. -First of all, strongandbig's contributions were not empty. Reread his filter. Even if you believe that what strongandbig has written qualifies as empty, you could look at both marvellosity and phagga and find even more empty filters. Which is weird because prplhz knows that marvellosity is town. So, why strongandbig? It doesn’t make sense, even if prplhz believes what he’s telling us he believes. -Second, "his posting style is weird and he has not been called out yet" is not a legitimate scum-tell and prplhz knows that. This is the same kind of weak case that VE had on Sbrubbles during day 1. It doesn't make sense because if you look at the criteria by which prplhz is judging strongandbig, you find 2 other players who match the same criteria, but to a stronger extent - one of whom is about to be lynched. Also, when strongandbig replies to prplhz's “case”, strongandbig quite adequately (if we're comparing, again to marvellosity who somehow proved to prplhz that he was town) defends himself and all prplhz replies is: @strongandbig Read your rebuttal, still think you're scum. prplhz just dismisses strongandbig because prplhz knows that the case is made up so he pretty much has to stick to it no matter what. Again though, suppose that prplhz actually believes that there’s a chance strongandbig is mafia. Why dismiss his rebuttal so offhandedly when there are an additional 5 players who could also be the mafia members? If I had another vig shot tonight, it would be aimed straight at prplhz. 2. Ace I think the cases on Ace have already been made, but I think everyone should seriously consider the end of day 3 as a big red mark beside his name. To summarize the case: -More than happy to spend day 1 talking about mechanics. -Rather than willingly offer up information, he only answers questions which are asked of him. -Shows up 10 minutes before deadline to throw a vote on someone not going to be lynched day 1. -Votes MrZentor day 2 but refuses to talk about other scumreads. -Leaves a vote on bluelightz all of day 3, again without discussing other scumreads even when it's apparent bluelightz won't be lynched. Shows up only to defend himself. -Shows up in a whirlwind at the end of day 3, demanding that everyone unvote marvellosity because it’s “more than likely that he’s town” which is the opposite behaviour he showed on day 2 with the Zentor lynch Some more evidence: -Is a very intelligent mafia player and probably realizes that no-lynching benefits mafia more than town in this situation (see end of post), then clearly attempts to cause a no-lynch Why do I assume he tries to cause a no-lynch? Ask yourself, do you believe that Ace really believed that everyone would switch to phagga at the end of the day? Why does Ace ask everyone to switch to phagga? Because he comes in at the end of the day and places a vote on marvellosity (which by the way ensures that town gains information from his lynch), while only saying that the explanation was to come. What’s wrong with this? First off, he doesn’t actually let phagga explain his vote. Second, why would scum do the most blatantly obvious, attention grabbing thing in the game by hammering a towny a couple minutes before deadline? Third, again, what do we have to gain from a last second vote switch to phagga? Even if it succeeds, town has very little information. I refuse to believe that Ace did not think of this. I refuse to believe that Ace spend the entire day 3 sitting behind a vote on bluelightz, not suggesting any other scum reads, only to show up at the last second and vote phagga. Why do I refuse to believe this? Because this is the Ace who spouts that we should “focus on the lynch at hand”. He lives by this. How is a last second vote switch to phagga in any way focussing on the lynch at hand? If anyone besides Ace actually wants some quotes to back these up I can do some copy-pasting during lunch tomorrow (and no, Ace, I don't need you to reply. I've seen your replies already and I'm not satisfied). Important lynch mechanics First, and relevant to the above, is a note on the no-lynch vs. mislynch mechanics. During day 3, it benefits mafia much more than town to cause a no-lynch rather than a mislynch. The only thing town has to gain is another no-lynch, which they have to use in order for it to be remotely beneficial. Even then, you are sacrificing a confirmed alignment of a suspicious player for an extra day where that player is still alive. The tradeoff is this: - 2 suspicious town members dead, 2 not suspicious town members killed by mafia, going into lylo on day 5 (3:2 town:scum) vs - 1 suspicious town member dead, 3 not suspicious town members killed by mafia, going into lylo on day 6 (3:2 town:scum Scum would much rather be in charge of which town members are dying than letting town kill off their most suspicious reads to work their way towards lynching red. Especially when one of those town members is a town-vigilante ("confirmed" town). And remember, the second option only occurs if town actually no-lynches a second time. If mafia can convince town to mislynch twice in two days, then no-lynching on day 3 was a huge win for them. That is why I have strong reason to believe that prplhz and Ace are the remaining scum. NB: It is not just because they voted for a no-lynch on day 3 (in fact, they didn’t and town could have been justified in doing so), but indeed partly because they actively pushed for it to happen without actually saying that they were okay with a no-lynch. As I said above, prplhz claimed several times he didn’t want a no-lynch. He left it pretty damn close for someone so sure. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On May 01 2012 04:16 prplhz wrote: My cases are always short and always weak, that's probably one of the reasons nobody ever listens to me. I could mention my case on MrZentor in Death Factory Mafia 2, you can go read that. It's a more wordy version of the case I have on strongandbig right now but it's pretty much the same. Or you can look at the case I made on Artanis[Xp] in TL Mafia LVI, that was equally "weak". You can also look at how I just dismiss Artanis[Xp]'s defense in that game, I'm pretty sure he is scum and I don't want to argue shit with him. I know my case is "weak" because I can't really explain it any more to you than what I've already done. The most important thing I'm doing is that I'm pointing out that he is scum and telling you to read his filter and then that should convince. Okay, but why strongandbig? Why NOT marvellosity? Go through each of the points of your case and tell me how they apply to strongandbig more than: Ace, marvellosity, phagga, and Sbrubbles. How are you now convinced that strongandbig is scum when clearly there is some town in that group? I don't see it. How was marvellosity guaranteed town to you and why was it more important to try and drum together a bandwagon on someone else than lynching someone whom I think 5 town members were suspicious of? I'm also perfectly aware that my day1 and day2 were ruined by some guy who decided to make those a horrible experience for me by demonstratively being a douchebag. That's also why I had a break day2, I couldn't read one more of his posts after the "Why are you even playing this game?" post so I took some time off of teamliquid.net. All I can say is that I'm pretty sure that strongandbig is scum and now I'm pushing it as hard as I can. As for the "he's trying to set up day2 lynch", why is that even scum? I'm never trying to ruin discussion (and we have always had plenty of time for that even though he didn't use it all that well), I was telling Radfield that we were lynching MrZentor as a way of pushing MrZentor. I didn't want people to leave his lynch and if I didn't fight for it then it might not happen. The stuff surrounding MrZentor is very tough to read. I admit it is weaker than some of the other parts of the case. A problem though, is that you were not around day 2 to discuss other scum targets, even though it was clear almost from the beginning of the day that MrZentor was probably going to be lynched. Even though you are really tunneling me right here you played a pretty good game, I was absolutely sure that you were town even before your shot on VisceraEyes and that shot was also really nice. Can you explain to me, at what point between voting me day 1 and my shot on VE that you became absolutely sure that I was town? For people reading Snarfs' case on me, don't ask yourself "Is this scum?", because you can always find a way to spin something as scummy (which Snarfs shows quite skillfully in his analysis of me), you should ask yourself "Is this something scum is likely to do?" and then you should read my filter. And ask me questions 'cause I'm around. By all means, that is why I posted the case now. So people have time to ask both of us questions and so that I had time to respond to your response. What about the promises to "mislynch" marvellosity in order to ensure a no-lynch doesn't occur, then not following through on that? How is that town behaviour? Town needs the information and scum wants to deny it. What was with the weird desperation you showed in the last hour before the lynch to find a new target? How could that have been more beneficial for town than a marvellosity lynch? | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
I had a fun game and learned a bunch again . Looking forward to the next one already!I really should have shot Ace, but what made me change my mind was this thought: "I don't want to be the guy who shot the town with the DT check on him". I was weighing that with the odds of being the guy who shot the godfather who had the green check on him, but I thought VE was a safer bet anyways so went with it. I really should have rethought prplhz more because before the end of day 3 I wasn't really finding him suspicious at all. But, like I said, learned a ton. Thanks everyone! | ||
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