Newbie Mini Mafia VIII
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
I would like to kick off this game with a discussion question: What do you guys think of a Lynch all Lurkers and a Lynch all Liars policy? This is often a strategy employed in games to get scum to talk, and thus be able to separate them from the group. I strongly suggest such a policy, because in forum Mafia we naturally only have the posts of the Mafia to weed them out. If they aren't talking or are lying we will never be able to figure out the truth. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
I found that in the game I played, Day 1 was actually the most decisive. Even though we killed a townie, the town had pretty much figured out 2/3 Mafia members. Odds are that Day 1 we will hit a townie, so why not get the scum to start talking and rather than having nothing to go off after the first day. @Yomi and wiliz22912 You confirmed right before the start where are you?? | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
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On April 12 2012 08:32 vonKlaust wrote: /confirm Imo, lurkers should be lynched if we don't have any solid reads to go on and we need to pressure lurkers to step out of the shadows. About liars, I'm interested how lies usually manifests in these kind of games. I mean, how often can you really know for sure that someone has been lieing? If someone is obviously witholding information or lying, I guess they would likely be scum and I would probably support a lynch(obviously depending on the circumstances), but what is the chances of actually getting that sort of hard facts? I would imagine that catching somebody red handed in the act of lying is something that occurs very rarely in Mafia. So, basically, lynch liars if it's obvious that they are lying and that their lies are hurting town, but don't focus on trying to catch people red handed. I don't think the chances of doing that is very big. And also, english isn't my native language as some of you reading this maybe already have figured out. I apologize for any typos and grammar errors. GL HF everyone! Lies usually manifest when there is a heated argument between Mafia and Townie. If you see a lie call it out, it forces a response from the person in question and gives us a better sense of their alignment. Its not the lie that matters it's the response we want. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:50 KharadBanar wrote: BroodKingEXE: How did your Day 1 start? Was it an accusation that got the discussion flowing or was it just random strategy talk like we're doing here? My Day 1 started with a discussion like this one. People looked at the responses and started probing. We had really good leaders in that game that were able to get a lot of people talking. We ended up lynching a lurker, due in part to a bad response. The accusations were really what reveleaved who was who in the end, but drawing those responses (and non-responses) was key to directing focus. Here is a link to my first game: Game 1 Note the Response from Electric Black and xtfftc(page 5 and 6). they are very charged and lead us to believe they were scum. EB later admitted he made a bad response in the Observer Thread, and xtfftc turned up being scum. Think about it, that is a 50% chance of catching Mafia, since there are only 25% mafia in town that means we win. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:19 vonKlaust wrote: I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it? It's pretty funny that you actually just mentioned that this tactic ended up back fireing in your last game(it's even the same guy!) He should be open about pressure voting! If he is going to pressure vote shouldn't we know as a town? That way we know that KB is thinks Hiro is not scum and that he isn't throwing his vote around randomly (like a scum). | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:46 vonKlaust wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 09:37 BroodKingEXE wrote: He should be open about pressure voting! If he is going to pressure vote shouldn't we know as a town? That way we know that KB is thinks Hiro is not scum and that he isn't throwing his vote around randomly (like a scum). To be honest, I just read "A General Guide to Mafia" and on the subject of pressure voting it says: So what I was thinking was that it would be better to wait for a while, since it's pretty natural for people not to have posted yet, and putting out a vote later when the person you're pressuring have actually made posts which you can use in your pressure-attempt. I can't imagine that you would feel very pressured by the kind of pressure vote KharadBanar made. Thinking about it, what you say makes sense though. I guess throwing votes around seemingly lighly is a pretty good way to get lynched yourself. I disagree with some of the things in this guide(for example theorycraft which can get very WIFOM). My idea of a pressure vote is that it elicits a response from the target. It doesn't really matter if Hiro knows or not, if KB has his vote on Hiro, he will die if he doesn't respond. Like you agreed its better we all know KB's intentions rather than making assumptions. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:17 HiroPro wrote: What do you mean by this? You say that lynching lying townies scares scum? I don't follow. Townies shouldn't be lying, what do they have to gain by that? If you see a lie you call it out to illicit a response. We have a better chance at getting a response if the liar feels pressured to respond. A a liar or a lurker is more likely to be scum so we target them if we don't have any reads by the end of today. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:49 Dittert wrote: All very good points that I did not think about prior to posting. I was just trying to get things flowing. As someone pointed out earlier, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie. I thought this way we could get a discussion about lynching someone started without having to necessarily lynch whoever did the suggesting. I feel it's okay if I have a terrible idea, with this being my first game of mafia in my whole life, and all... We're all newbies at this game, why duck responsibility for your statement? And the discussion was already rolling why did you feel the need to redirect the topic? Trying to establish yourself as the topic starter after an active discussion was already going on: feels a little scummy to me. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting. I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic. I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. This is your first post, yet you do nothing to contribute. Why should we stop the discussion, it seems like people are already forming opinions on people based on the "pointless" discussion. Instead of trying to stop the talk, why dont you look over what has already been said and start forming ideas about the tone of the responses. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 12 2012 12:31 yomi wrote: nothing to contribute? I am one of the only people to post something substantive, specific, and concrete. I have looked over what's been said and formed ideas. For example I think you are mafia. Anyone who has spoken so far has obviously contributed as you have developed an opinion off our posts. At least you have moved the discussion onto a more directed plane. Something I dont understand is why you think Dittert has contributed all that much. Others have seemed to post more about the topics than him (he tried to redirect the topic, but has done nothing since then). Speaking up more is more of a townie behavior. Mafia will want to stay in the shadows, so as to not give away any information. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 09:57 HiroPro wrote: I'm not an idiot Kharad. Also, lol @ anyone who thinks Kharad's vote is random. He picked me because he wants to compare the response from last game to this game. And this entire conversation about how and when to pressure vote is pointless, considering it's already been done in this game. It doesn't make sense. If KB can see a difference in tone helps the town figure out if he is scum. I want to Hiro to tell us why he isn't scum. Until then I'm going to continue to think he is scum. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
Ill post in the morning. @Xatalos: Do you think ArticFox is more scummy because he has posted more bad posts, or because the bad posts of others didnt have as good a read? | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
@Xatalos I don't like the line of reasoning you used to accuse AFox. Blending in and talking about blue roles also applies to blues as well. Newbie blues will often obsess about blue strategy and try to get input from the forum. Alternately they could try to blend in with the town.We can't really focus on the fact that he is mentioning blues, more we focusing on things like his accusation against vK. Its a flawed line of thinking that I won't condemn you for. Going off that... @vK The tone of this post is very suspicious to me. You offer no reasoning as to why AFox is scum, choosing instead to bandwagon onto the logic of Xalatos. The post reeks of suggesting you are being a newbie (I underlined the tones). Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read. On April 12 2012 21:36 vonKlaust wrote: Ok, I must disappointedly admit that I feel pretty lost. So far I think most cases have felt a bit rushed, but I guess that could be because I'm simply not used to this kind of speculative reasoning. I do however think that Xatalos case on ArticFox seems to carry some truth. If I would have to vote right now, I would probably go with this. Both the blue-talk and the policy lynching-talk seems a bit odd. I guess you could agrue that ArticFox could be blue himself, but it doesn't strike me as very natural behaviour to talk so much about blues if you are one yourself since you would desperately want to stay hidden. I'm not quite as confident about this as Xatalos seems to be, but to me this seems to be the best analysis so far. Some people have been critical towards Dittert and his RNG-talk. To me he comes across more as a nervous newbie(no offence, I'm pretty much a nervous newbie myself!) than scum. I think he's sincere about the claim that he was actually after sparking discussion rather than actually pushing for RNGing. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:24 vonKlaust wrote: Oh yes, I care to weigh in. First off, yes I wrote two meaningless oneliners right in the beginning of the game. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 08:54 vonKlaust wrote: Alright people, start typing! We know you're out there. So far only a handful of us have posted. On April 12 2012 08:56 vonKlaust wrote: Just noticed that the game had been going for 50 minutes. Lol, maybe I should be a tad more patient. Sure, those comments were not necessery or helpfull but I wouldn't really call my filter "Full of useless junk" because of that. I think it's pretty clear that I meant that it's inevitable that innocents get lynched, and that there will be people who makes bad reads, and people bandwagoning those. At least that has been the case in the games which I have participated in. Well, I AM confused. And I can agree that I come across as somebody who doesn't take solid stances. I don't know alot about this game, and I try to be humble to that fact. I say what I think, but you're likely not gonna see me write something like "I am perfectly comfident this is how we should play this game" or "I know for a fact that X is scum". That's just not how my brain works. If you actually read what I wrote the post before: + Show Spoiler + So what I was thinking was that it would be better to wait for a while, since it's pretty natural for people not to have posted yet, and putting out a vote later when the person you're pressuring have actually made posts which you can use in your pressure-attempt. I can't imagine that you would feel very pressured by the kind of pressure vote KharadBanar made. Thinking about it, what you say makes sense though. I guess throwing votes around seemingly lighly is a pretty good way to get lynched yourself. You might notice that this is pretty much what Willz wrote. He posted when I was writing, and thus, I didn't see his post until after I was done. When I read it I thought that he put it much better than I did, and therefore I added: + Show Spoiler + What Willz wrote was pretty much what I was thinking. In case I did a bad job making myself understandable. Please note that in the post I made just after Willz' post, I was elaborating what I wrote in an even earlier post. I was not just copying what Willz were saying. What does this even mean? He doesn't seem suspicious, and that's why he is suspicious? I don't think my filter looks as bad as you're saying. It is true that I haven't accused anyone, or said something like "This is definitley what we should do". But that is simply because I don't really know what to look for in scumhunting(escpecially this early), and I have no idea what to do day 1. Hell, if everyone hadn't trashed Ditters RNG-idea, I might aswell have concidered it. I have just been trying to keep the discussion going. On the topic of scum, I'll repeat what I said in my last post. I don't really know and I'm definitley not ready to set my vote, but if I had to go for anyone right now, it probably would be you. In this post you make counter argument whatsoever. If you think you did put constructive posts, you would have used those as counter-examples. Once again you go into how you were confused. If you really dont understand, we will call you on it, but it is a far cry from a lynch. The funny thing about this is that you read through the Newbie Guide, so you should have known about this. Your latest post was semi-reasonable, as Xatalos might still have suspicions but is choosing to go after AFox. @The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act. I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). He also flat out claims a lie, that could've easily been a mistake (his post against yomi). He doesn't seem to want to follow the way of the town (we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to policy lynch). Overall I think he needs to put in better input for the amount of gunslinging he is doing. ##Vote: Dittert | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
My last scum read is on Yomi, he has clearly built a stronger case against me, but refuses to vote against me. Is he afraid because he would have been at the helm of such an attack? I don't think much of his OMGUS reactions, I've had experience with townies doing that, but I will try and look more into those. I want to see what he does as we get closer to the vote. We have to becareful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
My last scum read is on Yomi, he has clearly built a stronger case against me, but refuses to vote against me. Is he afraid because he would be blamed when I turn up townie? I think this is a good theory, but I want to see what he does in the coming hours. I don't think much of his OMGUS reactions, I've had experience with townies doing that, but I will try and look more into those. We have to be careful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. | ||
BroodKingEXE
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BroodKingEXE
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On April 13 2012 06:44 willz22912 wrote: What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion. Mafia look at the scum lists and figure out who has the best sense of who they are. They then kill them | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
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On April 13 2012 06:56 imallinson wrote: I think the votes so far are: Yomi (1): Kharad trumpetarm (1): imallinson Dittert (2): Broodking, Yomi Xatalos (1): Hiro vonKlaust (1): Xatalos This is what I am talking about. A Mafia could put their votes anywhere and change the tide of the vote. Dittert and trumpetarm please start to contribute to the discussion. Hiro I want to hear more about your vote against Xatalos | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 13 2012 07:14 HiroPro wrote: Why does it matter if the votes can be shifted right now when the deadline is more than a day away? Votes will naturally consolidate as we get closer. My inital vote against Xatalos was because he made a bad case and appeared very contradictory with his posting. But I think his case against vonKlaust is strong and deserves attention. I am worried because of the time gap. Its around 4-8 PM in the US, but its almost time for you guys to go to bed. I just want to make sure we get some consensus in before the vote (12 hours sounds good. | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 13 2012 07:57 HiroPro wrote: Alright, I see this. But if Xatalos is your main suspect, I'm still wondering why you never voted for him. 1. Xatalos makes bad case. 2. I vote for Xatalos. 3. Broodking asks why I'm "bandwagoning Xatalos" (lololol) 4. I respond 5. Xatalos makes good case. 6. I trust Xatalos more and see similar suspicious behavior as Xatalos does in vonKaust. I vote for vonKlaust. The problem I have with your case against Xatalos was that Xatalos never had the bandwagon to begin with. People saw it as pretty useless information after they reread it, and it was pretty much dead from there. I viewed it as pure misguided case, I am wondering what made it different for you? What makes you think that Xatalos is more scummy than Dittert per say? | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
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BroodKingEXE
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On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Glad to see you post Dittert. Innocence will save you, a townie will act like a townie and mafia like a mafia. No matter how hard they try the Mafia will always make mistakes, and as long as you are actively speaking we will be able to see the difference. You've put some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. I don't like your comment about an agenda though, as my only agenda should be helping the town. Me asking questions is my way of scumhunting, so I will continue to call out people on what I see. ##Unvote | ||
BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. | ||
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On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! I agree with his stuff about Yomi bandwagoning. Yomi started off with a very powerful statement accusing 3 people and telling town reads on another 2 people. He then proceeds to provide no information on why he made those decisions. His only response is that he didn't like how the policy discussion was started. Its not really a valid statement, because he said three people were leading the discussion (dittert, KB , and me), so he would have to had some reasoning as to why he chose dittert (he obviously comment much more on my posts). His distancing theory is a little far fetched (I mean really how could the Mafia do something that obvious). His comment on how Yomi picked the him out of the line-up was correct in my eyes. Yomi could've easily listed those names ala carte, but choses to rank them and not follow the rank. I also think his observation on your "I'm a townie declaration" puts you further up on my list of possible scum. | ||
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Vote: willz22912 @AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values. | ||
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On April 14 2012 01:47 willz22912 wrote: My case against BroodKingEXE: I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing? 1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox: 2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: 3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: 4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind. 5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here: Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy? 6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert. BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this: He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide. 7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not? 8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing. 9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town. Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now. My Response 1. I saw dittert acting with questionable evidence, so I voted for him. Yomi was pointing baseless accusations, but I wanted him to respond so I put my vote on dittert, since he was my main suspect. 2. This point is irrelevant I explained that the Mafia have more voting power if the vote is scattershot. Your point is as valid as mine the Mafia could do either, I just think it would be easier to see a bandwagoner than if the whole town voted scattershot. 3. Reiteration 4. Scumlists are bad in cases, if the Mafia knows what everyone is thinking they can guide the conversation away to a suspected (but innocence. Scumlists are often too brief to put in a lot of hard evidence, so why not post your top scum? We can only lynch one person at a time anyway. 5. His reasoning in this post was valid to me. No one has yet to prove otherwise. I think it was AFox that asked me to post my reasoning and I did. Dittert was a pressure vote to me your quote in 4 shows that, I said "My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity". I felt at the time dittert voting for you was quite flimsy, but he continued to reinforce his case in the post that convinced me he wasn't scum. 6. The "except mafia" was put by me to imply that I didn't think mafia's opinions didn't matter. It wouldn't have been better if others read into it and thought I supported the opinions of Mafia members. 7. The problem I am having with this statement is that that you were arguing that since you were defending dittert he shouldn't be attacking you. You never actively took apart dittert's statement to clear your name. If you say his evidence is bad don't blame his newbie status, blame his reasoning 8. You weren't answering any of my questions, so I chose to wait until the morning to make a desicion. This is exactly what you did. You chose to wait until the morning to look for evidence against me, I chose to wait to go after you. 9. Reiteration | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Yomi | ||
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On April 12 2012 11:56 BroodKingEXE wrote: This is your first post, yet you do nothing to contribute. Why should we stop the discussion, it seems like people are already forming opinions on people based on the "pointless" discussion. Instead of trying to stop the talk, why dont you look over what has already been said and start forming ideas about the tone of the responses. On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning. This was before willz scummy post. On April 14 2012 01:23 BroodKingEXE wrote: @artic Yomi is another one of my suspects. He keeps trying to say he has contributed something, but he hasn't talked about who he accused yet. So far his only response is that he has already stated his evidence. A lot of people have been asking him for more evidence, but he hasn't been giving any. This is scummy behavior to me, but willz takes more precedence as he posted more (I want to hear a different response from him before I come to a surefire conclusion). I am not sure about the third member as I don't have any scum reads on the rest of the town, and HIro or Trumpet could very well be mafia. On April 14 2012 05:29 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Xatalos I think that Yomi is scummy, but we don't have enough to lynch him now. His latest case on dittert is shaky at best, but he hasn't spoken enough for me to draw a surefire conclusion. I think Willz and Yomi could both be scum, a Mafia could lightly defend his teammate to move suspicion off him. I agree that Willz pleading sounds pro-town, but I feel he still only has suspicions vs evidence on his suspected. I want him to build another case, because if he is a townie we need to know where to go after the night. The town might go after me, but if I flip town then four people would be dead with no leads on anyone. | ||
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I'm saying that I am human and I don't want the Mafia (possibly Hiro or Trumpet) to kill the townie(which could be Willz if I am wrong. his posts have been sending mixed messages, but I still believe he is scum). Keeping the voting power out of the hands of the Mafia trumps my best scum pick in my eyes. Willz and Yomi both haven't given any reasoning for their votes, they could be bandwagoning. I still hold the FoS against them. I have reasoning for both of these people. I am not bandwagoning. | ||
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