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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
*Cephiro is co-hosting this game. Please ensure all night actions are sent to both him and myself via PM.
*This game is open to new players only, that is, you must have played three or fewer game on TL.
Newbie Mini Mafia VI + Show Spoiler [Important Posts] +
Introduction: Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. Mafia takes up a lot of your time! If you are not prepared to commit, then please don't join
Rules: Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players. Only you may post on your account. 11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM
Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting: Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs: Not allowed. This is a newbie game, don't try to take advantage of it.
Spam: Please keep spam to a minimum. This thread is for mafia, not chit chat.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. I don't mind at all if you post multiple times in a row.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. I expect everyone to be civil here. This is a newbie game, and a chance for everyone to try out mafia, or to try and improve there game. We are here to have fun, so please do not insult each other. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, please PM me directly.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Voting rules: 1. Voting will be done IN THIS THREAD. There will not be a voting thread because I think they're redundant for minis. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Kavdragon. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts as often as possible. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may not vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. This game uses Plurality Lynch. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. In the event of a tie, the player who received the most votes first will be lynched. 6. [b]Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Signups: This game is open newbies only, that is, you must have played three or fewer game on TL.
Game-specific rules: Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements This game will use replacements if we can get them. If we have an excess of sign-ups, they will be placed on the 'replacement list' and subbed in as necessary.
Clues: There are NO clues.
PMs PMs are NOT allowed in this game.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 24 hour night/48 hour day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 00:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after.
Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer. Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, please go back and do so. Thanks!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Setup
This is an open 2 of 4 setup. Seven roles are predetermined, and 2 of 4 possible roles are chosen at random to fill the last two setup slots. The seven predetermined roles are 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, and 5 Vanilla Townies. The last 2 roles are chosen out of the following 4 options(2 of 4): Sane Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, or a sixth Vanilla Townie. There is no chance of duplication in these last two roles.
Therefore, the setup will be randomly chosen among the following:
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor.
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
- 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 6 Vanilla Townies, Doctor.
A sample PM for all roles is provided below.
I will be rolling the dice to assign both teams and roles.
If people would prefer a parity cop again instead of a sane cop I'm happy to accommodate that. Otherwise I'd rather give this set-up a few more chances here on TL. Keep in mind that the Role Cop is being replaced with a Roleblocker.
Questions:
+ Show Spoiler +
Q: Does the doctor/jailor or the victim get notified if he saves someone? A: No one gets notifed
Q: Do people get notified if they are roleblocked? A: No one gets notified, If the cop gets roleblocked his investigations will return no results.
Q: Can a Jailor roleblock a mafia hit? A: Yes, the Mafia Goon is designated as the killer, if that guy gets jailed, he won't be able to perform the kill. If the Goon is dead, the Roleblocker will perform the kills.
Q: Can the Doctor/Jailor protect themselves? A: Nope, sorry!
Q: What if the Jailkeeper and Roleblocker target each other? A: Roleblocker will act first in this situation, and will prevent the Jailkeeper from using his action.
Q: If the Roleblocker is jailed, will the Roleblocker still be able to use his ability? A: No, if the Roleblocker is jailed, he will not perform a night action
Q: If a player is targeted by both the Jailkeeper and Sane Cop, will the Cop get a result back? A: No, any actions performed on a player who has been jailed will not be completed.
Q: Do the mafia have to attempt a kill at night? A: No, Mafia do not have to kill at night. They may choose to withhold their kill instead.
Sample PMs:
+ Show Spoiler +Townie You are a Townie! You have no special role, only your voice and your vote. Make them count!
Sane Cop You are the Sane Cop! You have the ability to make night investigations. Once per night phase, you may perform a check on a player to find out their alignment.
Doctor You are the Doctor! Every night you may select a player to protect from a night hit. You may not protect yourself. If you save a player from a hit, neither of you will be notified.
Jailkeeper You are the Jailkeeper! Every night you may select a target, and that player will be both protected and roleblocked. Any actions they try to perform will be unsuccessful. Likewise, any actions performed on them will also be unsuccessful. Neither player will be informed if any actions were blocked.
Mafia Goon You are the Mafia Goon! You are the man with the gun, and perform kills for your team. If you are killed, your teammate will retrieve your gun and perform the kills instead.
Your partner in crime is name. You may PM him/her as much as you like.
Mafia Roleblocker You are the Mafia Roleblocker! Every night you may choose a target to be role blocked. If the person chosen to be role blocked has a night action, he or she may not use it for the night. You may roleblock the same person each night.
Your teammate is name. You may PM him/her as much as you like. Your teammate will perform the kills, but if he or she dies then you will perform the kills instead.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Player List
Replacement List 1. Janaan 2. Acrofales 3.
1 of 2 MAFIA remaining: 2 of 7 TOWN remaining:
Mafia KP is always 1
+ Show Spoiler [ Dead Players] +
1.Solohan50, Mafia Roleblocker, Lynched Day 3 2.Therapist. the Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 1 3.HiroPro 4.omnomMuffins, the Vanilla Townie, Shot Night 3 5.marvellosity 6.strongandbig
7.Kohbee, the Sane Cop, Lynched Day 2 8.FourFace, the Vanilla Townie, Shot Night 1 9.KharadBanar, the Jailkeeper, Shot Night 2
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/in, will give my spot to an unfortunate newbie later, to prevent that it will be occupied by newb vet.
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/in
Been waiting for a new newbie game to pop up since I first started looking at this section. Never played Mafia before.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Thanks for the OP shout-out :D
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 04:38 kitaman27 wrote: Thanks for the OP shout-out :D
How did you know! Was is the tell tale grammar error in the newbie's only part?
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Day 2 Current Vote Count
Kohbee (4): omnomMuffins, marvellosity, strongandbig, Solohan50
Solohan50 (3): KharadBanar, Kohbee, HiroPro
Everyone is currently voting. Day 2 Voting ends at Thursday, Apr 05 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), which is in slightly less than 5 hours.
Day 1 Votes: + Show Spoiler +Day 1 Final Vote Count
Therapist. (4): KharadBanar, Kohbee, HiroPro, marvellosity
Kohbee (3): Therapist., Solohan50, strongandbig
FourFace (1): omnomMuffins,
marvellosity (1): FourFace
Day 1 Voting ended at Monday, Apr 02 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)* = First one to reach the current highest amount of votes.Day 1 Vote History:+ Show Spoiler + Kohbee voted HiroPro Therapist voted Kohbee FourFace voted HiroPro KharadBanar voted Solohan50 marvellosity voted Solohan50 strongandbig voted Kohbee omnomMuffins voted FourFace marvellosity unvoted Solohan50 marvellosity voted FourFace FourFace unvoted HiroPro Kohbee unvoted HiroPro FourFace voted Therapist HiroPro voted omnomMuffins HiroPro unvoted omnomMuffins HiroPro voted Solohan50 Kohbee voted Solohan50 KharadBanar unvoted Solohan50 strongandbig unvoted Kohbee Solohan50 voted Kohbee marvellosity unvoted FourFace KharadBanar voted Therapist Kohbee voted Therapist FourFace unvoted Therapist FourFace voted Kohbee strongandbig voted Kohbee HiroPro unvoted Solohan50 HiroPro voted Therapist marvellosity voted Therapist FourFace unvoted Kohbee FourFace voted marvellosity
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/in
Never played forum mafia before but the games here look interesting.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 04:44 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 04:42 Radfield wrote:On March 30 2012 04:38 kitaman27 wrote: Thanks for the OP shout-out :D How did you know! Was is the tell tale grammar error in the newbie's only part? Might wanna check the uppermost line in your first post. :D
Curses!
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Lol Radfield your game is named "Newbie Mini V" underneath the host section
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/in
Gmarshal is making me do it
I have played SC2 mafia, and TL mafia at events.
I will be sporadic until Monday, but then I can start really really reading
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/in IF the day/night rollover time gets changed to something more EU-friendly. 4 AM is just a little too much to ask of my sleeping schedule. (12 or 1 AM CEST maybe?)
I have not played any forum Mafia games before, neither on TL nor on other sites. I have however played Mafia IRL to some degree, and I am closely following the Aperture Mafia thread on this forum, which is really awesome. Good Luck and Have Fun everybody!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
/in
Been looking forward to this
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Been reading a bunch of the other games
/in!
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I'll be occupied with death factory mafia for the moment and not sure two games at once is a good idea. Put me on the reserve list, just in case you need someone to sub in.
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/in
my ban should be expired by now. Happy B-day marvellosity キタ━━━(゜∀゜)━━━!!!!!
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/in Hopefully this will turn out better than the last few newbie games ha.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 07:03 FourFace wrote: /in
my ban should be expired by now. Happy B-day marvellosity キタ━━━(゜∀゜)━━━!!!!!
Many thanks :D
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/in
First game for me as well. Should be fun!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 05:33 wherebugsgo wrote: Lol Radfield your game is named "Newbie Mini V" underneath the host section
On March 30 2012 05:37 Janaan wrote: /in for my 4th game.
Sorry Janaan, you're 1 over the limit. I will however put you as first replacement, so if anyone drops out or is modkilled you can sub in. Also, if we struggle to fill up I will put you in, but I'd rather give newer players(3 games or less) first dibs. Sound good?
On March 30 2012 05:50 KharadBanar wrote: /in IF the day/night rollover time gets changed to something more EU-friendly. 4 AM is just a little too much to ask of my sleeping schedule. (12 or 1 AM CEST maybe?)
I have not played any forum Mafia games before, neither on TL nor on other sites. I have however played Mafia IRL to some degree, and I am closely following the Aperture Mafia thread on this forum, which is really awesome. Good Luck and Have Fun everybody!
I've moved the time forward 2 hours, which hopefully works as a compromise. Any earlier and I guarantee I will miss pretty much every deadline. Let me know if this works for you and I'll put you /in.
IMPORTANT!
I've changed the voting to Plurality Lynch instead of Majority Lynch. This means that whomever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. In the case of a tie the player who reached to most votes first is lynched.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Gossemerr and Solohan50, we are full as a 9 player game right now(assuming KharadBanar wants to play on the new deadline time), but I'm considering expanding the number of players to accommodate everyone who wants to play. So we may end up as an 11 or 13 or 15(etc.) player game instead. Either that or another host will fire up Newbie Mini Mafia VII, so either way you guys will end up playing
Stay Tuned.
Game will probably get under way on Friday or Saturday night, omnomMuffins hopefully this works for you(and everyone else). If it doesn't please let me know.
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Does mafia have to attempt a kill at night?
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On March 30 2012 09:39 Radfield wrote:Sorry Janaan, you're 1 over the limit. I will however put you as first replacement, so if anyone drops out or is modkilled you can sub in. Also, if we struggle to fill up I will put you in, but I'd rather give newer players(3 games or less) first dibs. Sound good? My bad, I thought "3 or less" meant you had already played 3 or less. That's fine, looks like there's plenty of people with no experience signing up, so it's great to get more people in the mafia scene! Good luck, have fun, everyone!
Also, Radfield, if there's anyone else with less experience who wants to get on the replacement list, you can put them ahead of me, since I guess I'm not a newbie anymore :D
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Geez, this filled up fast.
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The new deadline time is fine with me. I'm confirming my /in.
If it starts tonight, I'll probably start posting tomorrow morning.
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I can manage to take a peak once a day
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/out please replace me with solohan50
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 20:25 blubbdavid wrote: /out please replace me with solohan50
Done
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Did you decide whether you were going to expand the game by 2-4 players?
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On March 30 2012 20:45 marvellosity wrote: Did you decide whether you were going to expand the game by 2-4 players?
If he expands the game, he'll probably update the OP accordingly.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 20:47 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 20:45 marvellosity wrote: Did you decide whether you were going to expand the game by 2-4 players? If he expands the game, he'll probably update the OP accordingly.
Thank you Sherlock
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On March 30 2012 20:23 omnomMuffins wrote:I can manage to take a peak once a day
I already get scumvibes off you. Be prepared to get tunelled like a tortured traitor
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 22:23 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 20:23 omnomMuffins wrote:I can manage to take a peak once a day I already get scumvibes off you. Be prepared to get tunelled like a tortured traitor
I like your style.
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On March 30 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:23 FourFace wrote:On March 30 2012 20:23 omnomMuffins wrote:I can manage to take a peak once a day I already get scumvibes off you. Be prepared to get tunelled like a tortured traitor I like your style.
AHA! .. complimenting in order to gain sympathy. Obvious scumslip. I got you know!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 22:31 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:On March 30 2012 22:23 FourFace wrote:On March 30 2012 20:23 omnomMuffins wrote:I can manage to take a peak once a day I already get scumvibes off you. Be prepared to get tunelled like a tortured traitor I like your style. AHA! .. complimenting in order to gain sympathy. Obvious scumslip. I got you know!
Aha! 'know' instead of 'now'. How can you 'know' unless you're scum? Eh?!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 22:39 FourFace wrote: I don't know, lynch me!
Gladly :D
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BTW I want to make a couple of statements before we start in order for what I say to be irrelevant for your scumsearch later on.
I am going to play for fun, I don't care about learning the game or playing "badly". This doesn't imply I haven't read the rules, OP, guides, past games, player meta; or that I won't read the whole thread if it gets larger than 15 pages. Because I have and I will, and I'm counting on everyone to do likewise.
I am never going to insult you personally but I will most certainly tell you to your face if your posting style seems inefficient, total bullshit to me regardless of whether I think you're scum or not so I'm probably going to insult your role and style of play .. a lot, during this game. I can handle any sort of critique to my virtual online persona so I expect a little indifference from you too. I won't call your mom a whore or anything like that but even If I would, would you care? I'd be just another troll on the internets without any knowledge of your personal business, forget about it.
Once the game starts if you plan on condescending people by giving them newbie advice, and reciting principles on how to play and what they should look for, talk excessively about the concept of lurking and lynching lurkers and generally calling people noobish or crazy .. you are going to make this game less fun for me not to mention you'd just repeat what thousands have said before. Which means I'm going to have to compensate by writing crazy fluff, that you might not be interested in reading, just to mimic your lack of efficiency and usefulness to town. So if you're town don't do that. If you're scum, don't do it either because I'll quite possibly vote to lynch you for it in the absence of more concrete scumreads.
That's all I want to say .. my motivation, my self-imposed boundaries and what pisses me off the most. Oh and GL HF GG everyone
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 20:45 marvellosity wrote: Did you decide whether you were going to expand the game by 2-4 players?
I think I will keep it as a 9 player game, but am currently trying to round up a second host to run a game alongside. If I can't find someone I will run a second game myself. At the latest that game will go up on Sunday.
On March 30 2012 10:36 HiroPro wrote: Does mafia have to attempt a kill at night?
No, Mafia do not have to kill at night. They may choose to withhold their kill instead.
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why would they do that lol
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:14 FourFace wrote: BTW I want to make a couple of statements before we start in order for what I say to be irrelevant for your scumsearch later on.
I am going to play for fun, I don't care about learning the game or playing "badly". This doesn't imply I haven't read the rules, OP, guides, past games, player meta; or that I won't read the whole thread if it gets larger than 15 pages. Because I have and I will, and I'm counting on everyone to do likewise.
I am never going to insult you personally but I will most certainly tell you to your face if your posting style seems inefficient, total bullshit to me regardless of whether I think you're scum or not so I'm probably going to insult your role and style of play .. a lot, during this game. I can handle any sort of critique to my virtual online persona so I expect a little indifference from you too. I won't call your mom a whore or anything like that but even If I would, would you care? I'd be just another troll on the internets without any knowledge of your personal business, forget about it.
Once the game starts if you plan on condescending people by giving them newbie advice, and reciting principles on how to play and what they should look for, talk excessively about the concept of lurking and lynching lurkers and generally calling people noobish or crazy .. you are going to make this game less fun for me not to mention you'd just repeat what thousands have said before. Which means I'm going to have to compensate by writing crazy fluff, that you might not be interested in reading, just to mimic your lack of efficiency and usefulness to town. So if you're town don't do that. If you're scum, don't do it either because I'll quite possibly vote to lynch you for it in the absence of more concrete scumreads.
That's all I want to say .. my motivation, my self-imposed boundaries and what pisses me off the most. Oh and GL HF GG everyone
Can't wait to rub you up the wrong way, buddy
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:18 FourFace wrote: why would they do that lol
In this setup?
A: Withhold your kill, claim you took a hit, ride your confirmed town status to victory.
B: Withhold your kill, Jailkeeper is convinced he found the scum, force a mislynch, a roleclaim and a wasted day.
Both are interesting gambits, and there may be a couple other situational reasons as well.
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On March 30 2012 23:25 Radfield wrote:In this setup? A: Withhold your kill, claim you took a hit, ride your confirmed town status to victory. B: Withhold your kill, Jailkeeper is convinced he found the scum, force a mislynch, a roleclaim and a wasted day. Both are interesting gambits, and there may be a couple other situational reasons as well.
The second one seems legit, i like it. I don't understand the first one though.. how do you claim to have taken a hit .. nobody gets notified about medic saves or jailkeeper action so how can you claim to be sure you survived a hit
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:31 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 23:25 Radfield wrote:On March 30 2012 23:18 FourFace wrote: why would they do that lol In this setup? A: Withhold your kill, claim you took a hit, ride your confirmed town status to victory. B: Withhold your kill, Jailkeeper is convinced he found the scum, force a mislynch, a roleclaim and a wasted day. Both are interesting gambits, and there may be a couple other situational reasons as well. The second one seems legit, i like it. I don't understand the first one though.. how do you claim to have taken a hit .. nobody gets notified about medic saves or jailkeeper action so how can you claim to be sure you survived a hit
You're right! It makes no sense! You passed the test! .....
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:34 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 23:31 FourFace wrote:On March 30 2012 23:25 Radfield wrote:On March 30 2012 23:18 FourFace wrote: why would they do that lol In this setup? A: Withhold your kill, claim you took a hit, ride your confirmed town status to victory. B: Withhold your kill, Jailkeeper is convinced he found the scum, force a mislynch, a roleclaim and a wasted day. Both are interesting gambits, and there may be a couple other situational reasons as well. The second one seems legit, i like it. I don't understand the first one though.. how do you claim to have taken a hit .. nobody gets notified about medic saves or jailkeeper action so how can you claim to be sure you survived a hit You're right! It makes no sense! You passed the test! .....
Holy shit Radfield scumslip
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 23:34 Radfield wrote:On March 30 2012 23:31 FourFace wrote:On March 30 2012 23:25 Radfield wrote:On March 30 2012 23:18 FourFace wrote: why would they do that lol In this setup? A: Withhold your kill, claim you took a hit, ride your confirmed town status to victory. B: Withhold your kill, Jailkeeper is convinced he found the scum, force a mislynch, a roleclaim and a wasted day. Both are interesting gambits, and there may be a couple other situational reasons as well. The second one seems legit, i like it. I don't understand the first one though.. how do you claim to have taken a hit .. nobody gets notified about medic saves or jailkeeper action so how can you claim to be sure you survived a hit You're right! It makes no sense! You passed the test! ..... Holy shit Radfield scumslip
I get that alot
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On March 30 2012 23:14 FourFace wrote: BTW I want to make a couple of statements before we start in order for what I say to be irrelevant for your scumsearch later on.
I am going to play for fun, I don't care about learning the game or playing "badly". This doesn't imply I haven't read the rules, OP, guides, past games, player meta; or that I won't read the whole thread if it gets larger than 15 pages. Because I have and I will, and I'm counting on everyone to do likewise.
I am never going to insult you personally but I will most certainly tell you to your face if your posting style seems inefficient, total bullshit to me regardless of whether I think you're scum or not so I'm probably going to insult your role and style of play .. a lot, during this game. I can handle any sort of critique to my virtual online persona so I expect a little indifference from you too. I won't call your mom a whore or anything like that but even If I would, would you care? I'd be just another troll on the internets without any knowledge of your personal business, forget about it.
Once the game starts if you plan on condescending people by giving them newbie advice, and reciting principles on how to play and what they should look for, talk excessively about the concept of lurking and lynching lurkers and generally calling people noobish or crazy .. you are going to make this game less fun for me not to mention you'd just repeat what thousands have said before. Which means I'm going to have to compensate by writing crazy fluff, that you might not be interested in reading, just to mimic your lack of efficiency and usefulness to town. So if you're town don't do that. If you're scum, don't do it either because I'll quite possibly vote to lynch you for it in the absence of more concrete scumreads.
That's all I want to say .. my motivation, my self-imposed boundaries and what pisses me off the most. Oh and GL HF GG everyone I would like to say pre-game that I disagree with your stance on newbie advice, principles and lurking. This is a newbie game and these discussions often can help start talks to begin in the begining of a game. This will encourage more people to talk and thus give us more to read into. Also, lurking is an extremely viable strategy for scum to use. If we ignore discussions of this then we are doing ourselves a disservice.
You can't just start off a game with nothing expecting people to have scum reads, thats just not possible. If you can figure out a way to rid the town of these behaviors by starting a different topic leading to meaningful conversation I am all for it. I agree that meta is probably a terrible idea in newbie games.
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Should've specified: "unasked-for" newbie advice. I really think it's annoying to hear stuff like "lurking is an extremely viable strategy for scum to use".. but it could be just me, and you do what you want.
I would like to try something out, yes. Have people compete in writing like they are having fun, just a regular group chat among TL-ers. Joke, make references to starcraft, memes, word play. My theory is that he who lacks the ability to convince the others that he's having fun will most likely be scum. Why? Because lurking is no fun.. and like you said, mafia don't have any problem with playing like that, town does. Mafia want the game to be boring and unreadable, town doesn't. Yes it's rather unconventional and not in the guides yet but let's do try it.
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I don't think the goal for mafia is just to make the thread boring and unreadable.
It is good for them when the thread is like this, but I believe the goal for mafia is a broader one: To make the posts with actual reads or cases less visible. This can be accomplished through simply boring town out of reading the thread, but it can also be through lowering the overall signal-to-noise ratio. If one serious post of a competent player making a case is buried under ten posts of "jokes, references to StarCraft, memes and word play", fewer people will pay attention to it than in an overall serious discussion.
This does NOT mean that you should lurk until you have gathered enough evidence to accuse someone of being scum, because that is not something we want on Day 1. However, it means that after the early game when there is enough material in the thread to seriously analyse, off-topic discussion, joking and the like helps scum rather than it hurts them.
So by all means, post away on Day 1, but let's get more into "real" game play after that.
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On March 31 2012 01:18 KharadBanar wrote: So by all means, post away on Day 1, but let's get more into "real" game play after that.
I can agree to that.
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And I strongly support your efforts to change the rollover time, seeing there are predominantly European players for change (myself included)
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Oh wait .. there are only 3 of us + the co-host.. nvm. But a soft compromise would be nice nevertheless
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Since its not going to be extended, you can ignore my /in, I'll wait for the next one
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How about + or - 4-5 hours on the deadline?
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I'd like an obs QT when this game starts please
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On March 31 2012 00:50 FourFace wrote: Should've specified: "unasked-for" newbie advice. I really think it's annoying to hear stuff like "lurking is an extremely viable strategy for scum to use".. but it could be just me, and you do what you want.
I would like to try something out, yes. Have people compete in writing like they are having fun, just a regular group chat among TL-ers. Joke, make references to starcraft, memes, word play. My theory is that he who lacks the ability to convince the others that he's having fun will most likely be scum. Why? Because lurking is no fun.. and like you said, mafia don't have any problem with playing like that, town does. Mafia want the game to be boring and unreadable, town doesn't. Yes it's rather unconventional and not in the guides yet but let's do try it.
So content-less jokes, memes and sc references are now townie? No. This is exactly how scum would want to play, they can get anyway with anything in this idea of a town atmosphere.
You know whats fun in Mafia? Catching scum. Not posting just for the hell of it and trolling the thread away. This is a newbie game we should be looking to improve through discussion of the game itself.
I'm sorry but your idea is stupid, especially for a newbie game.
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I can do whatever deadline
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I don't feel the need to argue with you, but please .. stop calling ideas stupid. It is the only way to emotionally stir up someone you don't know on the internet. You are really offending me, needlessly. You can say that you want my family to die of cancer (Alfio style) and it wouldn't be as offending because both of us know that you have no reason to hate my family. But if you call my idea stupid .. I don't know your level of intelligence, your mental achievements, your sense of humor or your motivations in life and I can't have someone i don't respect calling my ideas stupid. So pretty please with sugar on top ..remember to refrain from doing that and politely disagree next time.
Odds are 7 to 2 that I'm going to be townie so I'm not trying to trick you into playing badly so Mafia wins. I just think I gave it a little more thought than you have. I see some problems like the thread turning boring and people going inactive because they're like: aww shit I have to read thorough this pile of accusations, lurker philosophy, poor or non-existent argumentations and whatnot just so I can find out if 30 hours later the guy i voted for gets lynched or if the guy who gets lynched is scum or not.
Personaly I'd like some salt and pepper so my curiosity gets me reading and get a couple of laughs as a reward. The discussion you seek will most likely never emerge, i dare you to prove me wrong. My guess is there's gonna be faceless people with no personality blindly accusing and insulting eachother. You might as well go into politics for that.
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On March 31 2012 02:42 FourFace wrote: I don't feel the need to argue with you, but please .. stop calling ideas stupid. It is the only way to emotionally stir up someone you don't know on the internet. You are really offending me, needlessly. You can say that you want my family to die of cancer (Alfio style) and it wouldn't be as offending because both of us know that you have no reason to hate my family. But if you call my idea stupid .. I don't know your level of intelligence, your mental achievements, your sense of humor or your motivations in life and I can't have someone i don't respect calling my ideas stupid. So pretty please with sugar on top ..remember to refrain from doing that and politely disagree next time.
Odds are 7 to 2 that I'm going to be townie so I'm not trying to trick you into playing badly so Mafia wins. I just think I gave it a little more thought than you have. I see some problems like the thread turning boring and people going inactive because they're like: aww shit I have to read thorough this pile of accusations, lurker philosophy, poor or non-existent argumentations and whatnot just so I can find out if 30 hours later the guy i voted for gets lynched or if the guy who gets lynched is scum or not.
Personaly I'd like some salt and pepper so my curiosity gets me reading and get a couple of laughs as a reward. The discussion you seek will most likely never emerge, i dare you to prove me wrong. My guess is there's gonna be faceless people with no personality blindly accusing and insulting eachother. You might as well go into politics for that. What you are calling a personal insult is nothing of the sort. I do not think you are stupid, I just think your idea for this game was.
I have to read thorough this pile of accusations, lurker philosophy, poor or non-existent argumentations and whatnot just so I can find out if 30 hours later the guy i voted for gets lynched or if the guy who gets lynched is scum or not. Someone correct me if I am wrong but this is EXACTLY why we play mafia. To read other players, to see if we can outsmart and outthink them to lead our team (town or scum) to victory.
If accusations, lurker philosophy and arguments (alongside 30 hour waits) are not what you are looking for maybe you should consider not playing forum mafia. You seem impatient and bored without the game even begining. The fun in the game should not come from the content of the posts but in deciphering the messages that they send. Your solution sounds lazy and as if you don't care about the game of mafia at all, you just want us to entertain you with funny posts.
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On March 31 2012 03:45 Kohbee wrote: [] Someone correct me if I am wrong but this is EXACTLY why we play mafia. =/= To read other players, to see if we can outsmart and outthink them to lead our team (town or scum) to victory.
* If accusations, lurker philosophy and arguments (alongside 30 hour waits) are not what you are looking for maybe you should consider not playing forum mafia.
* This is what it has become. Should you possess any speck of intuition you would realize that this is not what it set to be and how it was played and is played on higher levels. A lot of veterans even choose to play elsewhere because the rigid attitude that TL has come to identify with lately doesn't reflect the spirit of the game.
I'm not asking you to entertain me, but I'd be willing to entertain entertain you .. get lost in the lore and immerse in these roles even.. and I can't do that if someone keeps saying stuff about this being a newbie game and repeat and quote what other people say how you should play.
Suggesting I shouldn't play = rude, insulting. Saying you aren't stupid your ideas are = rude, insulting, condescending. I don't get why you do it, I honestly don't.
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On March 31 2012 04:19 FourFace wrote:
Suggesting I shouldn't play = rude, insulting. Saying you aren't stupid your ideas are = rude, insulting, condescending. I don't get why you do it, I honestly don't. This is completely untrue. I do not think that anything I have said should have any of the descriptions you used attributed to them.
As for everything else you said I would love to hear someone else's opinion because I am still new here and while I've played a fair share of forum mafia, I have no idea what to say to you
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ignore my /in! please
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On March 31 2012 01:55 Mementoss wrote:I'd like an obs QT when this game starts please
Oh shit we're being watched!
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How you cannot see that this is rude is beyond me. You are basically saying gtfo. Are you seriously implying that you think that it's a well-meant advice that I shouldn't play this game, just because I find some aspects of how it is played insufficiently satisfying? Dude..
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On March 30 2012 22:23 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 20:23 omnomMuffins wrote:I can manage to take a peak once a day I already get scumvibes off you. Be prepared to get tunelled like a tortured traitor
SOrry just running the ONOG Invitational until then
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Easy guys, why don't we leave this discussion off here. There are many different ways to play mafia, and none are better than each other, only different. It's true that TL adopts a pretty strict stance on one side of the spectrum however. I've seen sites where mafia is treated far more as a game of role-playing than a game of post analysis, and honestly that appeals to me not at all. I know however that the things I love about mafia are equally as unappealing to others as well, and I'm sure some folks have left for different pastures.
That being said, a TL mafia game is not the place to discuss recent starcraft results or hot news topics, and I don't think that's what FourFace is necessarily suggesting. There is plenty of room for jokes and fun to be had, as long as it is kept in check and does not detract from the game. It also leaves plenty of room for roleplay if that's your thing, or straight up wackiness if that's your thing. You just need to remember that people might lynch you for it
Lets all remember that we're here to have fun . I'm going to send out the role PMs in a couple hours, and we'll get started at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) tonight. I'm looking forward to it, and I hope you all are too.
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Super excited for this! Especially since I'm staying up late to watch TotalBiscuit's podcast anyway :D Also, I have a suspicion that FourFace and Kohbee are going to want to lynch one another soon oO
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Nope I will hold nothing said out of game accountable.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
PMs are going out now, please refrain from posting until the game starts.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Day 1
It was a peaceful morning at the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo. The sun was shining and it was warm outside. The clock went on, and one by one the workers slowly started to arrive. As usual, it was time for the morning routines at the zoo, making sure that everything is alright before opening to the public.
Liquidia Aquatic Zoo had recently gained some rare new species for show, including a speartooth shark, a hawaiian monk seal, and a knysna seahorse. These would be exactly the solutions they needed to gain more viewers, and thus enable them to continue to operate their zoo and spread the word about endangered species. After all, everyone wanted their years of hard work to flourish, and the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo was currently everything they had once hoped to achieve.
While passing through the tanks of the animals, going by the sharks, the seals, several species of turtles... everything seemed to be fine, until all workers were suddenly alerted and asked to gather at the office. One of them was shaking, and his hand was partly covered by blood. He then went on to tell everyone what he had seen as he was passing one of the reptile areas.
One of the alligators was contently chewing on a limb, which after a moment was found out to be what was left of Radfield, the Manager of the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo. Also, a small piece of paper with notes about certain species, money, and contact information was found next to the coat of Cephiro, the Vice Manager of the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo. Apparently, some of the employees were planning on snatching some of the endangered species and selling them for money. But who of them could belong in such a gang? And so the pointing of the fingers started...
Radfield, Manager of the LIquidia Aquatic Zoo has been found Eaten! Cephiro, Vice Manager of the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo has gone Missing!
Day 1 will end in 48 hours, at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) on Sunday Apr 1st(or Monday morning for you Euros).
A few reminders before we begin:
This is NOT a majority lynch setup. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the Day will be lynched.
You need to post at least once per Day and Night, and voting is mandatory. You may not abstain, vote for a no-lynch or vote for yourself.
From this point on, if you would like to be replaced out of the game, please PM me directly. DO NOT post your replacement request in the thread.
Please keep things civil, and treat each other with respect. If I feel like you are stepping out of line, I will send you a warning via PM. If you receive a warning from me, please heed it.
Most of all, Have Fun! Mafia is a frustrating, rewarding and enjoyable game, lets make it a good one!
+ Show Spoiler +Full credit to Cephiro for the picture and story!
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HELP! Radfield! Nooooooooooooo~
gl hf and gg guys
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Don't worry Radfield. We'll find your killers.
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Not the knysna seahorse! Who could do such a thing? I'll make sure your killer is brought to justice, Radfield.
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The poor hawaiian monk seal
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Who would plot to steal these poor, innocent animals??
And kill our boss, Radfield, who I'm sure treated us all with respect and who we probably didn't all hate?
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Check out the shades on le gator. Looking good while nomnomnomnom
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The gator who killed Radfield has already been euthanized. As will one of us very soon.
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Notice how everyone except me and omnomMuffins has mentioned "Radfiled" in his post. Therefore we must be scum ##Vote: FourFace
##Unvote
+ Show Spoiler +
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If my vote/unvote is in a spoiler does it count?
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On March 31 2012 12:15 Therapist. wrote: The gator who killed Radfield has already been euthanized. As will one of us very soon.
I am shocked. What did the the gator do wrong besides steal the shades? He's a carnivore what is he supposed to do, pass up his favorite meal? It would be insanely counterproductive to just kill this valuable asset to the zoo. What is that with euthanasia some sort of medic claim? Are you a vet or something? Have you made this decision without consulting anyone? And most of all .. Are you threatening us! 0_o
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Hi all! This is my birthday weekend, but I will start posting in earnest tomorrow. glhf!
So far my best scumread is on Fourface who is admitting to be scum
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hehe. Scum is as scum does. Busting out the newbie advices like a chieftain
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 31 2012 15:59 FourFace wrote: If my vote/unvote is in a spoiler does it count?
No, If your vote is in a spoiler it likely will not count, simply because I may not see it when I search the thread for '##'. Also, remember you can't vote for yourself
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Really? In the OP it says I can "4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game."
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Replace host?
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So there's already something fishy going on. First, Radfield dies, then he somehow manages to post in the thread. But not only that, he also misstates something from his own OP. Conclusion: That's not Radfield, that's an impostor!
We can however not vote for him because he's officially dead, and you can't vote for dead people, as per the OP. So that's where we are now: Our host is dead, and an impostor roams free, and that's not even including the scum within our game.
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On March 31 2012 20:32 KharadBanar wrote: So there's already something fishy going on. First, Radfield dies, then he somehow manages to post in the thread. But not only that, he also misstates something from his own OP. Conclusion: That's not Radfield, that's an impostor!
We can however not vote for him because he's officially dead, and you can't vote for dead people, as per the OP. So that's where we are now: Our host is dead, and an impostor roams free, and that's not even including the scum within our game.
Leave Radfiled alone, he's just thinking up ways to test me so I don't get bored. I am the champion testpasser. U guys just jelly and take it out on him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On March 31 2012 20:11 FourFace wrote: Really? In the OP it says I can "4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game."
You must be mistaken. Maybe you're reading some other OP, like Kitaman's...
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You just edited it 2 minutes before your post. Derp.
Anyway, back to in-character posting.
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EBWOP (i fail at pressing Tab...)
I will not accept any arguments from you, impostor! And what did you do with Radfield?
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On March 31 2012 19:02 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 12:15 Therapist. wrote: The gator who killed Radfield has already been euthanized. As will one of us very soon. I am shocked. What did the the gator do wrong besides steal the shades? He's a carnivore what is he supposed to do, pass up his favorite meal? It would be insanely counterproductive to just kill this valuable asset to the zoo. What is that with euthanasia some sort of medic claim? Are you a vet or something? Have you made this decision without consulting anyone? And most of all .. Are you threatening us! 0_o
You never know... Once a predator gets the taste for human flesh, it's hunger will never be slaked...
Imo, therapist's euthanasia threat is so scummy he can't possibly be scum, no one would say something like that before going to actually murder someone... Unless that's exactly wha he wants us to think and he really is scum, and is hiding in plain sight... Ugh! Too meta, it's getting self-regressive! Take it to first order, maybe.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On March 31 2012 23:42 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 19:02 FourFace wrote:On March 31 2012 12:15 Therapist. wrote: The gator who killed Radfield has already been euthanized. As will one of us very soon. I am shocked. What did the the gator do wrong besides steal the shades? He's a carnivore what is he supposed to do, pass up his favorite meal? It would be insanely counterproductive to just kill this valuable asset to the zoo. What is that with euthanasia some sort of medic claim? Are you a vet or something? Have you made this decision without consulting anyone? And most of all .. Are you threatening us! 0_o You never know... Once a predator gets the taste for human flesh, it's hunger will never be slaked... Imo, therapist's euthanasia threat is so scummy he can't possibly be scum, no one would say something like that before going to actually murder someone... Unless that's exactly wha he wants us to think and he really is scum, and is hiding in plain sight... Ugh! Too meta, it's getting self-regressive! Take it to first order, maybe.
Lynch ALL the people!
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On March 31 2012 23:42 strongandbig wrote:. Imo, therapist's euthanasia threat is so scummy he can't possibly be scum, no one would say something like that before going to actually murder someone... Unless that's exactly wha he wants us to think and he really is scum, and is hiding in plain sight.
So he's either confirmed town, obvious scum or something in between these two. It's a start
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 01 2012 00:40 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 23:42 strongandbig wrote:. Imo, therapist's euthanasia threat is so scummy he can't possibly be scum, no one would say something like that before going to actually murder someone... Unless that's exactly wha he wants us to think and he really is scum, and is hiding in plain sight. So he's either confirmed town, obvious scum or something in between these two. It's a start
6 pages in and all we've managed so far is joviality and sarcasm. This bodes well.
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Let's just blame it on the lurkers
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
That's always my strategy. In my 0 games so far, that is
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Oh wait, we have no lurkers AHA! My genius plan is a-working herpderp
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Marv aren't you supposed to be white water rafting or something?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 01 2012 01:12 FourFace wrote: Marv aren't you supposed to be white water rafting or something?
I've just turned 27. I'm too old for that sort of thing. Currently I am drinking some bevvies in preparation for a nice dinner followed by inappropriate clubbing.
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On March 31 2012 23:33 KharadBanar wrote: You just edited it 2 minutes before your post. Derp.
Anyway, back to in-character posting.
Is there a reason that you feel the need to adopt a character? You wouldn't be trying to hide something, would you?
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On April 01 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: 6 pages in and all we've managed so far is joviality and sarcasm. This bodes well.
The problem here is that it's pretty hard to identify scum when there's not a single action that has been taken yet. The only chance we have right now is suspecting people based on their posting behaviour (lurking). But even this is not very reliable. After the first night it looks a bit different because people can now analyse both the night actions and each other's posting, so this is where the game really picks up.
I was following the Aperture Mafia game pretty closely from the start, and the way they "solved" this problem was a random vigshot that happened 19 minutes after the first daypost. Drazerk claimed the kill and suddenly the discussion was all over the place, giving everybody tons of leads. But without some kind of Day 1 events that could happen, I think there can't really be much substance to our posts until then, except meta-analysis like this that is ultimately useless to the game. Still, people should try to at post something so as not to be identified as lurkers. Remember: More activity also means more possibility for slip-ups by scum players. And if those scum players don't want to risk such a slip, they attract attention for lurking. That's me done for this rant, make of it what you will.
[Disclaimer: Bear in mind that this is the first forum Mafia game in which I actively participate. The point I'm trying to make here stems from my considerations, not from actual play experience.]
On April 01 2012 01:30 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 23:33 KharadBanar wrote: You just edited it 2 minutes before your post. Derp.
Anyway, back to in-character posting. Is there a reason that you feel the need to adopt a character? You wouldn't be trying to hide something, would you?
I originally wanted to role-play at least a little bit, especially on day one. In that sense, in-character posting is considered arguing with the other players and weaving some flavour into my posts (see my glhfgg Post with the "HELP!"). Adressing the moderator directly and talking about the edit timestamp on the OP is something I would consider at least slightly out-of-character =P So that's where that comes from.
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On April 01 2012 01:30 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 23:33 KharadBanar wrote: You just edited it 2 minutes before your post. Derp.
Anyway, back to in-character posting. Is there a reason that you feel the need to adopt a character? You wouldn't be trying to hide something, would you?
he's just derping around like the rest of us, except he's doing it wrong. Not actually accusing you of anything .. no need to go serious mode
So what's with that name, and can we call you KB?
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The name is because I wanted something that isn't taken anywhere. It returned zero hits on google as I first created it. And yes you can call me KB if you want to. Also sorry for screwing up with my posts earlier >_> I hope to redeem myself with actual town play later.
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##vote HiroPro
His posts look thought out and unnatural. (aka nervous)
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wow, I suddenly feel the urge to bandwagon. But if you, Kohbee, would turn out to be scum I'd feel really REALLY ridiculous.
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HiroPro's 2 sentences seem thought out and unnatural? Maybe he's all Town and you know it and you're trying to get us on the wrong path right away.
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Guys this is gonna be pretty tough, I say we split the extra workload that comes from playing this particular setup but newbie mini games in general too (having next to no established meta, small number of players and less info from night actions because people don't get notified). I'd like each of us to monitor one particular aspect of everyone's behavior and report conclusions once a day/night.
What I can think of that fits the criteria of something worth monitoring: -aggressiveness -the extent to which the arguments make sense and have purpose -impulsiveness (who seems to be acting emotionally biased) -conciseness (quality over quantity) -loco (who is crazy and under which circumstances does it show) I'd be just the right guy for this job -eloquence (for the David Foster Wallaces among us; also note typing and edit mistakes) -reaction time (especially to a FOS) -cred (who got it right, who didn't)
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To find out who's the right guy for which job I'd like to ask a couple of questions first:
What do you prefer playing: town or scum and why? What role would you like to be in this setup and why? Think of a role that isn't in this setup and explain his powers Think of a theme for a game (optional)
Thank you for your cooperation
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I don't like your plan because IMO none of your traits can be assigned to an alignment. I answered in spoilers each trait.
On April 01 2012 03:24 FourFace wrote:Guys this is gonna be pretty tough, I say we split the extra workload that comes from playing this particular setup but newbie mini games in general too (having next to no established meta, small number of players and less info from night actions because people don't get notified). I'd like each of us to monitor one particular aspect of everyone's behavior and report conclusions once a day/night. What I can think of that fits the criteria of something worth monitoring: -aggressiveness + Show Spoiler +This doesn't say anything about alignment unless meta is involved -the extent to which the arguments make sense and have purpose + Show Spoiler +it completely depends on what the argument is about -impulsiveness (who seems to be acting emotionally biased) + Show Spoiler +this is a newbie game, people will have a hard time controlling emotion -conciseness (quality over quantity) + Show Spoiler +Never expect anyone (town or scum, rookie or vet) to do this correctly IMO shows nothing about alignment -loco (who is crazy and under which circumstances does it show) I'd be just the right guy for this job + Show Spoiler +-eloquence (for the David Foster Wallaces among us; also note typing and edit mistakes) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment -reaction time (especially to a FOS) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment and is the easiest way to mislynch -cred (who got it right, who didn't) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment, scum can be too right and too wrong I don't want to go in what we should actually be looking for or you'll try to lynch me for giving newbie advice when not asked for.
On April 01 2012 03:10 Therapist. wrote: ##Vote: Kohbee You were my second scum team member. Thanks for confirming with me
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On April 01 2012 03:30 FourFace wrote: To find out who's the right guy for which job I'd like to ask a couple of questions first:
What do you prefer playing: town or scum and why? What role would you like to be in this setup and why? Think of a role that isn't in this setup and explain his powers Think of a theme for a game (optional)
Thank you for your cooperation You are right about being loco
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Kohbee tries to act like he's confirmed two scum in his mind from the start. Why would he be so aggressive in calling people out as scum so early in the game if he were not trying to lead people away from himself and his partner? Hiropro may very well be scum, I have no idea. I know I'm not. I think more people need to call out Kohbee and see what he's really made of.
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On April 01 2012 03:51 Therapist. wrote: Kohbee tries to act like he's confirmed two scum in his mind from the start. Why would he be so aggressive in calling people out as scum so early in the game if he were not trying to lead people away from himself and his partner? Hiropro may very well be scum, I have no idea. I know I'm not. I think more people need to call out Kohbee and see what he's really made of. I don't talk to scum
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@Kohbee This is why I only listed 8 jobs. Unconsciously I knew you would act like a total douche. That's ok .. you can be our LEADER
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On April 01 2012 03:59 FourFace wrote: @Kohbee This is why I only listed 8 jobs. Unconsciously I knew you would act like a total douche. That's ok .. you can be our LEADER I don't know why you take offense to my posts. In a completely non-game related comment, you seem to be extremely sensitive to critism of your ideas.
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On April 01 2012 03:38 Kohbee wrote:I don't like your plan because IMO none of your traits can be assigned to an alignment. I answered in spoilers each trait. Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 03:24 FourFace wrote:Guys this is gonna be pretty tough, I say we split the extra workload that comes from playing this particular setup but newbie mini games in general too (having next to no established meta, small number of players and less info from night actions because people don't get notified). I'd like each of us to monitor one particular aspect of everyone's behavior and report conclusions once a day/night. What I can think of that fits the criteria of something worth monitoring: -aggressiveness + Show Spoiler +This doesn't say anything about alignment unless meta is involved -the extent to which the arguments make sense and have purpose + Show Spoiler +it completely depends on what the argument is about -impulsiveness (who seems to be acting emotionally biased) + Show Spoiler +this is a newbie game, people will have a hard time controlling emotion -conciseness (quality over quantity) + Show Spoiler +Never expect anyone (town or scum, rookie or vet) to do this correctly IMO shows nothing about alignment -loco (who is crazy and under which circumstances does it show) I'd be just the right guy for this job + Show Spoiler +-eloquence (for the David Foster Wallaces among us; also note typing and edit mistakes) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment -reaction time (especially to a FOS) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment and is the easiest way to mislynch -cred (who got it right, who didn't) + Show Spoiler +Says nothing about alignment, scum can be too right and too wrong I don't want to go in what we should actually be looking for or you'll try to lynch me for giving newbie advice when not asked for. You were my second scum team member. Thanks for confirming with me
I like how you had two scum suspects before the first day is half over. Someone is being really "productive" here. ^^
I also want to talk a little bit about FourFace's list of traits to watch: I'd say the traits CAN tell something about alignment, but 1) only if they are intelligently analysed and 2) there is no rule which binds alignment to any of them in a straightforward fashion. So if someone has a super short reaction time to accusations, it says nothing about whether he's scum or not, it just says he keeps F5ing the thread like a maniac. But if that person then goes really quiet after a specific FoS post against him and eventually posts something that isn't a super elaborate defense, THEN you can get really suspicious/start a bandwagon. It's all a matter of how the individual factors play together. I think decoupling them and giving everyone the job to look after a specific trait for each player is counterproductive in that situation. But that does not mean that you shouldn't look for scumtells by actually keeping a close eye on how any player posts, just do it intelligently please.
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Nod of approval. So who wants to go first?
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On April 01 2012 03:55 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 03:51 Therapist. wrote: Kohbee tries to act like he's confirmed two scum in his mind from the start. Why would he be so aggressive in calling people out as scum so early in the game if he were not trying to lead people away from himself and his partner? Hiropro may very well be scum, I have no idea. I know I'm not. I think more people need to call out Kohbee and see what he's really made of. I don't talk to scum I gotta say, this seems pretty scummy and hiropro seems like an essentially random target to go after.
I'm not going to vote yet - when do we need to vote by anyway? Did the deadline get changed or not - anyway, I'm not going to vote yet, but I think we should watch out for random accusations.
There's only three explanations I could think of for busting out a basically random case like the one against hiropro. 1. Townie, busting out a case to start day 1 discussion. 2. Scum, trying to push us towards a mislynch day 1. 3. Townie, but just really convinced in his case.
I think 1. is made more unlikely by the fact that he refuses to discuss his case with the rapist. That leaves 2 and 3 So Kohbee, if you have actual analysis on hiropro, please post it; otherwise, I'm going to keep looking at you suspiciously.
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Also I dislike the idea of outsourcing elements of our analysis. It sounds like it would allow the mafia to sabotage the rest of the analyses. I think we should just have everyone post their ideas and analyses. If someone wants to focus on one of those things then that's fine, and feel free to do that, but I don't really like the idea of assigning roles like that.
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On April 01 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote: I'm going to keep looking at you suspiciously.
joining in
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I don't think Kohbee is scum. His posts seem designed to provoke reactions from everyone. And these discussions help us find scum.
strongandbig - We have 2 "real" days to vote and discuss before night.
I am not a fan of assigning a single person to report traits on everyone, as this can easily be controlled by mafia.
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Have you ever seen this policy implemented before? I haven't and I thought to myself it would at least make everyone feel as if they are useful while being useful.. to me. Because I'll double check everything and see if I can fish out something that doesn't make sense or is just wrong
HiroPro wrote: strongandbig - We have 2 "real" days to vote and discuss before night.
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United States5684 Posts
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Never trust Mafia to be less intelligent than you are. If you say you fish out things that don't make sense/are just wrong, you are essentially betting to be better at this than scum is at concealing it. And if a manipulation attempt by mafia succeeds on you, your strategy actually works against you (unless you actually are scum yourself, obv). So no, I don't think this strategy will be very effective.
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You're just lazy ))
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No I'm not. Believe me, I've been hawking over this thread the whole day (EU time). I am however quite cautious in what possibilities we give scum to exploit us, and I really think "trait reports" by every player would help them more than us so I advise against it. I do however strongly advise for everybody to make up their own opinions about other players and who looks the most scummy to them. But don't tell everybody right away, because that starts bandwagoning and allows scum to bias the views of the town.
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I believe you are quite eager to cockblock me from hosting a RQS. So do me a favor and forget about the trait reports for one second and answer the questions.
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Answer ALL the questions!
On April 01 2012 03:30 FourFace wrote: To find out who's the right guy for which job I'd like to ask a couple of questions first:
What do you prefer playing: town or scum and why? I personally like town more, because I am in this game for the thrill of the unknown, and finding out who the scum actually are is the most rewarding feeling in this game for me, even more so than deceiving the town players into lynching each other as scum.
What role would you like to be in this setup and why? I would quite like to see a Paranoid Gun Owner (killing everyone visiting him) in this setup, because the role is quite easy to understand (this is a newbie game after all) and introduces little additional decision making complexity, yet can manage to turn the game around quite drastically. This can make it a quite fun role to have around, because it can make for unexpected turns of events.
On April 01 2012 05:13 FourFace wrote: Have you ever seen this policy implemented before? I haven't and I thought to myself it would at least make everyone feel as if they are useful while being useful.. to me. No, I actually haven't, but I believe there is a reason why people don't bring it up, as I elaboated earlier.
This is all I have seen in your posts so far that has question marks; if I have missed something, feel free to remind me.
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Paranoid Gun Owner is not in the setup so choose your mistake: You're either referring to the 3rd question and you quoted erroneously or you're referring to the 2nd question and actually believed to have seen Paranoid Gun Owner on the role list of the OP
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You can grammatically (mis)interpret "What role do you want to be in this matchup?" as the question I answered: I would want this role to be in the matchup.
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EBWOP: English isn't my first language.
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Ok, from what I've gathered from your answer to question nr. 1 your answer to question nr. 2 is either Vanilla Townie, Medic, Jailkeeper or Sane Cop .. for the same reason as #1 or something different?
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It's Vanilla Townie, for pretty much the exact same reason that I play town a lot. Because I like to be vocal and analyse a lot, scum doesn't like that so I wind up being killed in a pretty early night (especially in the meta of the group I'm normally playing with IRL). And dying while I'm a Vanilla Townie is hurting the town much less than them losing a blue role, so I'm more favouring Vanilla Townie because that gives me more freedom to post however much I like.
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Yeah " And dying while I'm a Vanilla Townie is hurting the town much less than them losing a blue role, so I'm more favouring Vanilla Townie because that gives me more freedom to post however much I like." that's about how I played my first game, also a newbie mini mafia. I was Vanilla Townie and the first thing I thought about was I could try to lure mafia into shooting me or wasting a roleblock, which I sort of succeeded. I somehow managed to confirm myself as town and then I claimed medic so the guy who replaced me got releblocked 3 consecutive times. Didn't help much though as mafia took a flawless victory.
Anyone else?
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As FourFace has now accepted my reasoning and I live in Europe, I'll go to sleep now. Do not expect me to answer to anything in the next twelve hours or so. Good night.
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I choose to imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger's/Thor's voice talking while I read KB's posts :>
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On April 01 2012 03:38 Kohbee wrote: You were my second scum team member.
There are 3 mafia in this game? So weird, especially the need for you to come clean like that with noone really poking you. I feel like I need to give you some newbie advice at this point .. as scum you should never admit you're scum not even seconds before you get lynched. True story
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On April 01 2012 10:34 FourFace wrote:There are 3 mafia in this game? So weird, especially the need for you to come clean like that with noone really poking you. I feel like I need to give you some newbie advice at this point .. as scum you should never admit you're scum not even seconds before you get lynched. True story
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Is the add image bbcode trolling you?
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Sigh, it seems to be. I don't know what I'm supposed to add for it to show up. If you drag the "image loading" to your address bar, you can see it though.
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hehe, anyway 1. Scum because I'm tired to be on the loosing side of inefficiency and failure to organize 2. Roleblocker so I can roleblock the cop muuoahahahahaa 3. In this game it would be awesome to have a Veterinary Medicine College Dropout Aquarium Cleaning Guy who has all the reasons to hate Radfield (see I can spell your name correctly if i please) due to the unrewarding physical labor and shitty wage and who is suspected to have gotten promised a nice sum of cash if he partners up with Cephiro because the note kind of resembles his handwriting. He knows how to tranquilize the animals so he would be perfect for the job but everyone knows him as a stand up guy who wouldn't tell a lie and he claims his innocence so he's town. But he's also scum who succumbed to the temptation of easy cash. How come? He has two personalities who function independently of one another day/night.. therefore he's played by two players sharing the account. The replacement can use the original player's account logging in with a temporary password as soon as nighttime falls up until dawn and is a fully pledged member of the scum faction and thus has access to the scumQT.
4. I'd like a Diablo 2 LOD theme with the prime evils corrupting the coucil members of Travincal and assimilating them into the scum team. Necro, Baba, Druid, Assassin etc. all have blue roles.. Talking to dead, Veteran, Detective, Vigilante respectively. The prime evil's night actions are Baal: can temporarily destroy a whole forum page; Mephisto: plants a post on to any vanilla townie/council member by preparing a post and making the target say it; Diablo: kills someone. They corrupt 1 council member each night while the Sorceress can persuade them to come back if she can guess who is corrupted. Deckard Cain can gamble on who gets corrupted and if he gets it right Mephisto's night action is revealed. Corrupted council members get a separate QT where they can talk anonymously.
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Shit sorry forgot about no editing. Forgot to make the post bold.
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That was all that I changed, my brain is slightly fried today.
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On April 01 2012 10:34 FourFace wrote:There are 3 mafia in this game? So weird, especially the need for you to come clean like that with noone really poking you. I feel like I need to give you some newbie advice at this point .. as scum you should never admit you're scum not even seconds before you get lynched. True story
There are two. Also, I am hungover. That is all
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Any tomato juice in the house, marv?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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if theres' a deuce you should list them in order. As it stands now HiroPro would get lynched not Kohbee.
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At this point with the little info that I have I'd like to state my position.
Today we witnessed a chainsaw defence performed by Therapist as a reaction to Kohbee's impulsive vote on HiroPro (who was a little tense in his posting style compared to others). This can be a scum tell especially because HiroPro didn't have the chance to get an idea of Kohbee's judgement capabilities so early in the game (he had no reason to find him suspicious).
But then what happened, Kohbee accused Terapist of being scum. This is another tell especially on Day1, mafia accusing each other halfheartedly.
So these are my reads up to this point and I choose to vote for Therapist because Kohbee did what comes natural .. he voted for someone in order to pressure him, rather randomly but it makes sense. What Therapist did doesn't make sense to me, he tried to intimidate the one instigating a random vote stage. He not so randomly voted for Kohbee but without any reason whatsoever to do so.
Then HiroPro says he understands what Kohbee did as a way to provoke discussion, but Therapist still doesn't drop his vote.
Then KB and me start to clutter up the thread etc. I did it to joke around and because I wanted a different approach to starting a discussion.. the random question stage approach but nobody seems to be interested.. why KB did it I don't really know. He discusses/defends my proposal as if he's trying to suck up to me but he then says it would be a bad idea because mafia can take advantage. Since when is organized town a bad thing, mafia already know a lot of shit and analysis however insignificant it might seem can only shed light on what town is likely to miss. He also does a lot of what I mentioned before the start of the game. And he is all but concise with no real purpose but to decline my attempts to implement some policy.
But most of all I think lynching HiroPro would give the most info. If Kohbee stays firm on his vote and he flips scum Kohbee is confirmed town and Therapist is very suspicious. If he flips town we got nothing whatsoever
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On April 01 2012 08:32 FourFace wrote: I choose to imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger's/Thor's voice talking while I read KB's posts :>
This just made my day. What is best in life? To be right in a scum vote, to see them flip before you, and to hear the lamentations of their buddies!
Re-engage serious mode:
On April 01 2012 11:26 FourFace wrote: 3. In this game it would be awesome to have a Veterinary Medicine College Dropout Aquarium Cleaning Guy who has all the reasons to hate Radfield (see I can spell your name correctly if i please) due to the unrewarding physical labor and shitty wage and who is suspected to have gotten promised a nice sum of cash if he partners up with Cephiro because the note kind of resembles his handwriting. He knows how to tranquilize the animals so he would be perfect for the job but everyone knows him as a stand up guy who wouldn't tell a lie and he claims his innocence so he's town. But he's also scum who succumbed to the temptation of easy cash. How come? He has two personalities who function independently of one another day/night.. therefore he's played by two players sharing the account. The replacement can use the original player's account logging in with a temporary password as soon as nighttime falls up until dawn and is a fully pledged member of the scum faction and thus has access to the scumQT.
Really? In a newbie game? Imagine someone playing this game for the first time and getting to be the Veterinary Medicine College Dropout Aquarium Cleaning Guy. He reads his PM and goes "WHAT??? How does my role even work?" Also remember that the player has to give up his account temporarily and completely trust another player (who? How is that determined?) with his account for each night. The other guy could easily get him banned for some completely unrelated reason, and no one can prove it was him. ALSO, how do you prevent the day player from logging on at night? He has to set the password for the night player, so he can log onto his account anyway and post at night with his normal personality (He doesn't get access to the QT though).
The same thoughts apply to the prime evils in your Diablo II game setup (Note that I haven't got anything against a Diablo II setup from a flavour standpoint, I would instantly join such a game if it gets hosted): One does not simply Destroy A Whole Forum Page (not even temporarily). And planting a post on a player, while more doable than the role described above, is nothing I would want in my game either.
I hope you think a bit more about your roles if you ever get to host a game.
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EBWOP: I choose to vote for HiroPro, although Therapist would be my second alternative
##Vote: HiroPro
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EBWOP:
On April 01 2012 22:07 FourFace wrote: This can be a scum tell especially because HiroPro didn't have the chance to get an idea of Kohbee's judgement capabilities so early in the game (he had no reason to find him suspicious).
Therapist didn't have the chance to get and idea ... not HiroPro sry well both, but it's irrelevant
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On April 01 2012 22:07 FourFace wrote: I think lynching HiroPro would give the most info. If Kohbee stays firm on his vote and he flips scum Kohbee is confirmed town and Therapist is very suspicious. If he flips town we got nothing whatsoever
If that is the move that gives us "the most information", we're in a pretty bad situation. With a 2/9 probability (if he flips scum), it tells us that Therapist might also be scum. Otherwise it does exactly nothing. If Kohbee gets lynched and flips town, we have essentially gained no information because it says absolutely nothing about the alignment of HiroPro, and the tell against Therapist is pretty weak even then. If he is scum, then HiroPro is either his buddy and he tried to gambit, or he played standard and HiroPro is a townie, so no real gain here either. (Don't lynch Kohbee). Lynching Therapist: If he's scum, there is at least a higher-than-average chance that either Kohbee or HiroPro is scum (he could try to gambit or he could defend his buddy), but in the case he's town we're looking pretty stupid again.
Our problem is that we have a (6/8)³ = 42% chance (from each townie's point of view) that none of those three is scum whatsoever. That is pretty high, and we can't really afford to act as if we know there is a scum player within them, because we don't. I would rather look at a lurker lynch for today, because then at least our efficiency as a town goes up if it hits a townie. Look at Solohan50's and omnomMuffins's filters: They're completely devoid of any discussion whatsoever. At least omnomMuffins explains it. On March 30 2012 05:40 omnomMuffins wrote:I will be sporadic until Monday, but then I can start really really reading
So, ##Vote: Solohan50
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Sensible post Kharad. I don't quite understand Fourface's case honestly.
Unrelatedly, I got a Nexus birthday cake!
##Vote: Solohan50
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On April 01 2012 22:49 marvellosity wrote: Sensible post Kharad. I don't quite understand Fourface's case honestly.
Unrelatedly, I got a Nexus birthday cake!
##Vote: Solohan50
Which part? nice..
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Well, it just seemed circumstancial. At least voting for a lurker atm might get them to post something useful...
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true, but I wouldn't expect something useful from people who aren't dedicated to make at least 5 posts per 48 hour day cycle, especially people from first world countries who are basking in constant internet access. Is it so hard to flick out your iphone while you're taking a piss? And begging lurkers to post is just one of the most repugnant aspects of modern forum mafia play. I say fuck the lurkers let's lynch this guy HiroPro
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If you don't expect something useful from the lurkers, why not lynch them? If they're scum it's a victory, and if they're town we don't lose much discussion power.
Aside note: I'm going to be an a LAN party until Tuesday. I can't exactly say how much I will be posting from there because I will be preoccupied with gaming, but I'll try my best.
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That is the weirdest excuse to prepare for lurking. Do you have internet at your Lan party? You want me to believe you can't take a 5 minute break and maybe show other people how cool tl mafia is? I find that so weird. I it something official that I can look up somewhere or is it just conveniently between friends?
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On April 01 2012 23:59 FourFace wrote: true, but I wouldn't expect something useful from people who aren't dedicated to make at least 5 posts per 48 hour day cycle, especially people from first world countries who are basking in constant internet access. Is it so hard to flick out your iphone while you're taking a piss? And begging lurkers to post is just one of the most repugnant aspects of modern forum mafia play. I say fuck the lurkers let's lynch this guy HiroPro
Your case against Hiro seems to be "we might get some information from it". I would say that is pretty much a worse reason than ours.
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Well first of all .. nobody is really lurking. Everybody posted something, what do you want them to do if there is nothing to discuss on day1. Besides you two .. nobody accused the lurkers yet so if you give them some time they will post something and you'll be like yeah that's legit, except they could technically be posting anything.
Nobody except me and Kohbee were of any use to town as of yet simply because we are consciously following an established strategy to get discussion going and seem to be getting cockblocked at each step by soulless, reactive and predictable posting. Would any of you have posted anything if it wasn't for me and Kohbee? I seriously doubt it.
Marv how bout taking your thumb out of your ass and start cooperating with my policy shit or jumb on the bandwagon along with me and my buddy Kohbee so people don't think you're just a zombie running towards a pipebomb thrown by KB. Lynching lurkers on day 1 is so booooring Jesus.
And KB for the love of God stop being so reactive. If you want to be useful to town you got to start your own trademark observation, get a niche so we can count on you to give your opinion on that particular aspect when we need to discuss it. Let me criticize your ideas for once.
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On April 02 2012 00:25 FourFace wrote: Well first of all .. nobody is really lurking. Everybody posted something, what do you want them to do if there is nothing to discuss on day1. Besides you two .. nobody accused the lurkers yet so if you give them some time they will post something and you'll be like yeah that's legit, except they could technically be posting anything.
Nobody except me and Kohbee were of any use to town as of yet simply because we are consciously following an established strategy to get discussion going and seem to be getting cockblocked at each step by soulless, reactive and predictable posting. Would any of you have posted anything if it wasn't for me and Kohbee? I seriously doubt it.
Marv how bout taking your thumb out of your ass and start cooperating with my policy shit or jumb on the bandwagon along with me and my buddy Kohbee so people don't think you're just a zombie running towards a pipebomb thrown by KB. Lynching lurkers on day 1 is so booooring Jesus.
And KB for the love of God stop being so reactive. If you want to be useful to town you got to start your own trademark observation, get a niche so we can count on you to give your opinion on that particular aspect when we need to discuss it. Let me criticize your ideas for once.
But my thumb feels good in my ass. If you have any sort of case against Hiro, I'm listening.
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I don't man .. but that doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch him for the reasons stated above. Me and Kohbee would be confirmed town if he flips red and Therapist would be suspicious along with you and KB. It could be a way to win this game.
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I still think Kohbee is the most suspicious person in the thread so far. Lynching hiropro seems to be essentially the same as lynching a lurker. However, lynching anyone day1 would give us the same information as lynching hiropro - if he's mafia and it was a close vote then the people who vote for him are probably town, if he is town or if he's mafia and everyone bandwagoned then we learn nothing. Either way we have the additional benefit that we're lynching someone who made a shitty push, then acted really defensive about it.
[b] ##vote: Kohbee [\b]
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Fuck not being able to edit bbcode ##vote: Kohbee
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I am officially withholding some reads from you guys now. I'm also fairly interested in what Kohbee and everybody else thinks about strongandbig including Therapist
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On April 02 2012 00:50 FourFace wrote: I am officially withholding some reads from you guys now. I'm also fairly interested in what Kohbee and everybody else thinks about strongandbig including Therapist
Stupid post of the thread award.
As you asked, I looked at strongandbig's filter. Looks like he was just calling Kohbee out and he's since stuck to his guns without posting too much.
Only thing that read a little odd to me was
On April 01 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote:
I'm not going to vote yet - when do we need to vote by anyway? Did the deadline get changed or not - anyway, I'm not going to vote yet, but I think we should watch out for random accusations.
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Stupid question, how do I read filters?
Also will post more in depth as soon as I am done with the ONOG Invitational tonight. It has not been going as smoothly as hoped. Expect a post maybe an hour after it is over, assuming I don't just keel over and die myself, also hoping for no more drama llamas like the last one
I would agree with voting out a lurker as well, as I was the only one to announce BEFORE roles were given out that I would be sporadic until a certain day(Monday). I have mostly just skimmed over though the posts and not looked at names too much while skimming, but right now it just seems like a lot of posturing and people expecting people to act like pros during an amateur game.
But seriously can we kill the gorram alligator that ate people?
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On April 02 2012 01:17 omnomMuffins wrote: Stupid question, how do I read filters?
In the Player List in the 2nd post, just click a name
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there's a link in the top right corner of every post that says filter. Above it theres a # which will teleport you back to the thread where it was posted. Marv, calling something stupid and expect someone to know how you came to that conclusion is one of those things I hate most about this game. Am I supposed to read your mind? I think you're gay so I won't even try to understand you.
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On April 02 2012 01:32 FourFace wrote: there's a link in the top right corner of every post that says filter. Above it theres a # which will teleport you back to the thread where it was posted. Marv, calling something stupid and expect someone to know how you came to that conclusion is one of those things I hate most about this game. Am I supposed to read your mind? I think you're gay so I won't even try to understand you.
I have to explain why a supposed townie not telling people their reads in Mafia is stupid? Ok, I take it back. Now you tell me why it's a good idea.
What has being gay got to to with understanding people? O.o
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you do have to explain because it's fairly simple for me to understand why I did it. I want to save it up for when I want to lynch the guy. It's not the theory of relativity but tell me why you think it should surpass you liking how your thumb feels in your ass.
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##Fourface
Don't really want to play with people with his attitude, it isn't helpful even if he is town.
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##vote:Fourface
Goddamit my brain isnt work enough to not be able to edit -_-
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You're just scared I might have a lead on you. Omg the reactivity.
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EBWOP: ah wait no, my bad. I thought you were someone else.
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Sorry for being a forum noob again.......... EBWOP?
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On April 02 2012 00:07 FourFace wrote: That is the weirdest excuse to prepare for lurking. Do you have internet at your Lan party? You want me to believe you can't take a 5 minute break and maybe show other people how cool tl mafia is? I find that so weird. I it something official that I can look up somewhere or is it just conveniently between friends?
It's not lurking, I'm just saying that I might take longer to react that otherwise (case in point: this post).
On April 02 2012 01:50 omnomMuffins wrote: Sorry for being a forum noob again.......... EBWOP? It means Edit By Way Of [double] Post. Because editing is forbidden in Mafia games (so that you can't "retcon" your posts), you have to correct yourself by doubleposting, which is not discouraged in this forum.
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On April 02 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: you do have to explain because it's fairly simple for me to understand why I did it. I want to save it up for when I want to lynch the guy. It's not the theory of relativity but tell me why you think it should surpass you liking how your thumb feels in your ass.
In case you hadn't noticed this is a team-game. You keeping things to yourself doesn't help the rest of us.
##Unvote: Solohan50 ##Vote: Fourface
I'm with Muffins. I'm tired of you being a dick.
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##Unvote ##Vote: FourFace at least I'll give you a real reason to vote me .. i'm the third person to jump on the bandwagon
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Okay I'm signing off until the ONOG Invitational is over (I'm admin the players, run the stream, etc) so I will be back then.
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On April 02 2012 02:06 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: you do have to explain because it's fairly simple for me to understand why I did it. I want to save it up for when I want to lynch the guy. It's not the theory of relativity but tell me why you think it should surpass you liking how your thumb feels in your ass. In case you hadn't noticed this is a team-game. You keeping things to yourself doesn't help the rest of us. ##Unvote: Solohan50##Vote: FourfaceI'm with Muffins. I'm tired of you being a dick. There is a lot of fail going on in this thread right now. Withholding information from town is NOT scum behavior. keeping town on a need to know basis is.
I don't think that fourface is a good lynch at all. I also think that hiropro is town and would also be a bad lynch.
There has literally been extremely little said so far in the thread. However one thing of note is marvellosity's willingness to switch his vote to whatever bandwagon he thinks will start up.
The solohan50 lynch is something I was thinking about before catching up on the thread. There has been very little of value posted thusfar in the thread and he is completely inactive. IMO he has like a 30-40% chance of flipping scum and if not, we lose nothing.
So far I only have town reads on a couple people.
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ebwop: keeping town on a need to know basis is good***
wow fail on my part
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 02 2012 02:18 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:06 marvellosity wrote:On April 02 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: you do have to explain because it's fairly simple for me to understand why I did it. I want to save it up for when I want to lynch the guy. It's not the theory of relativity but tell me why you think it should surpass you liking how your thumb feels in your ass. In case you hadn't noticed this is a team-game. You keeping things to yourself doesn't help the rest of us. ##Unvote: Solohan50##Vote: FourfaceI'm with Muffins. I'm tired of you being a dick. There is a lot of fail going on in this thread right now. Withholding information from town is NOT scum behavior. keeping town on a need to know basis is. I don't think that fourface is a good lynch at all. I also think that hiropro is town and would also be a bad lynch. There has literally been extremely little said so far in the thread. However one thing of note is marvellosity's willingness to switch his vote to whatever bandwagon he thinks will start up. The solohan50 lynch is something I was thinking about before catching up on the thread. There has been very little of value posted thusfar in the thread and he is completely inactive. IMO he has like a 30-40% chance of flipping scum and if not, we lose nothing. So far I only have town reads on a couple people.
Holy Moly My vote on Fourface is more a protest about him being a douchebag. I still think we should lynch Solohan, as he still hasn't posted
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you don't have to follow up with the name btw. I believe ##unvote is sufficient. (i can't vote for myself anyway :|, forgot about that)
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 02 2012 02:25 FourFace wrote: you don't have to follow up with the name btw. I believe ##unvote is sufficient. (i can't vote for myself anyway :|, forgot about that)
I thought we established the rules said you could
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On April 02 2012 02:09 FourFace wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: FourFace at least I'll give you a real reason to vote me .. i'm the third person to jump on the bandwagon
Pretty sure you can't vote for yourself, we went over that earlier.
As for reads on me, it should be pretty easy; I think that unless Kohbee explains his early accusation on hiropro, it's suspicious.
Personally I think that a case could definitely be made on fourface for being kind of domineering and trying to control the game, but I don't think he's scum yet. He was behaving exactly the same way before the game. Sure it's kind of obnoxious, but lynching someone for being obnoxious is exactly what mafia wants.
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it was a mirage, you are dehydrated from your clubbing endeavors last night
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On April 02 2012 02:27 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:09 FourFace wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: FourFace at least I'll give you a real reason to vote me .. i'm the third person to jump on the bandwagon Pretty sure you can't vote for yourself, we went over that earlier. As for reads on me, it should be pretty easy; I think that unless Kohbee explains his early accusation on hiropro, it's suspicious. Personally I think that a case could definitely be made on fourface for being kind of domineering and trying to control the game, but I don't think he's scum yet. He was behaving exactly the same way before the game. Sure it's kind of obnoxious, but lynching someone for being obnoxious is exactly what mafia wants. I did. Why are you so bothered by it
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EBWOP: I'm pretty confused
I was going to save up this reply for strongandbig:
On April 02 2012 00:40 strongandbig wrote: Either way we have the additional benefit that we're lynching someone who made a shitty push, then acted really defensive about it. ##vote: Kohbee [\b]
That is pure horseshit. Kohbee = useful imo. You want to kill someone useful = suspicious. You claim he's defensive about his push.. when did that happen? HiroPro acted super defensive by saying he can relate to Kohbee.
On April 01 2012 04:30 HiroPro wrote: I don't think Kohbee is scum. His posts seem designed to provoke reactions from everyone. And these discussions help us find scum.
End of reply.
But then Kohbee in fact retracted his vote and now lynching HiroPro has lost his lynching value.
So I'm switching to my secondary target: Therapist
[b]##Vote: Therapist
my secondary target now is strongandbig because he's also voting for Kohbee for no reason.
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Current Vote Count
Kohbee (2): Therapist, strongandbig
FourFace (2): omnomMuffins, marvellosity
Solohan50 (1): KharadBanar
Therapist (1): FourFace
omnomMuffins (1): HiroPro
Not yet voted: Solohan50, Kohbee
Voting ends in approximately 5 hours and 30 minutes.
Vote History
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To the people voting FourFace, how does that make any sense. FourFace has been one of the few people to try to get something going. Mafia would never try to lead the way FourFace is. Mafia lurk and try to remain hidden.
Of omnomMuffins and marvellosity, omnomMuffins has contributed almost nothing, while marvellosity has identified a possible scumslip by strongandbig.
On April 02 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Only thing that read a little odd to me was Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote:
I'm not going to vote yet - when do we need to vote by anyway? Did the deadline get changed or not - anyway, I'm not going to vote yet, but I think we should watch out for random accusations.
##Vote: omnomMuffins
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On April 02 2012 03:22 HiroPro wrote:To the people voting FourFace, how does that make any sense. FourFace has been one of the few people to try to get something going. Mafia would never try to lead the way FourFace is. Mafia lurk and try to remain hidden. Of omnomMuffins and marvellosity, omnomMuffins has contributed almost nothing, while marvellosity has identified a possible scumslip by strongandbig. Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:05 marvellosity wrote:Only thing that read a little odd to me was On April 01 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote:
I'm not going to vote yet - when do we need to vote by anyway? Did the deadline get changed or not - anyway, I'm not going to vote yet, but I think we should watch out for random accusations.
##Vote: omnomMuffins
I don't like this vote at all. He has said numerous times why he is not here (onog) and has atleast checked in where solohan has not. If you want to lynch a lurker why are you ignoring solohan.
Also, why not vote strongandbig if you think he scumslipped?
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Strongandbig did not jump on the FourFace bandwagon, which is something mafia would definitely try to do. His post could also be a sign of inexperience, instead of mafia.
Of the two lurkers (Solohan50 and omnomMuffins), the case against omnomMuffins is stronger because of the extremely illogical vote. Marvellosity is also possibly mafia.
Between those three players, I think we have the two mafia.
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On April 02 2012 03:37 HiroPro wrote: Of the two lurkers (Solohan50 and omnomMuffins), the case against omnomMuffins is stronger because of the extremely illogical vote. Marvellosity is also possibly mafia.
I don't think his vote on FourFace is necessarily a big scumtell. While I don't agree with it, I definitely recognize how he could be seen as annoying enough not to want him in the game anymore. Also, FourFace isn't the most consistent player out there. All in all, that's a slight scumtell there but nothing that really warrants a vote in my eyes.
Solohan50 on the other hand hasn't posted at all since his first flavour post, and has given us no excuse as to why, so even if he is town a lynch on him is not a very big loss. Lynching the lurkiest player is the most risk-free strategy in our situation, I think.
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United States5684 Posts
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That's a good point.
##Unvote
##Vote: Solohan50
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.........
To the people wondering what I was referencing, the poster above me said that if I didn't switch on to one of the 1 vote guys, mafia could swing the vote easily.
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Sorry, that was me on my dormmates computer. I fucked up.
What I said was that hiro needs to get his vote on solohan or therapist so that town can control the vote.
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Please be careful and do not even mistakenly edit your posts, as it is against the rules. Also, be even more careful if you use a computer other than your own and make sure you are on the right account.. we wouldn't want modkills for that would we?
Also, I will to my best extent keep the votecount updated in this post, as I do not want to go back and edit the earlier votecount posts in the thread, nor post new ones after every new vote. I will however do new posts containing the vote count regularly enough.
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Holy moley. I get back after being stranded in a desert without internet for a day and this thread has exploded. As a side note, having your car break down in the middle of the desert while driving back from Vegas is not a fun day. I left at 7am and got back home at 5am. :-(
Enough about my fun problems though. Now that I'm finally caught up on the thread, here's my observations. I think that it's a little too early to know whether FourFace is a confirmed townie or if he's trying to pull the wool over our eyes by being a very talkative Mafia. I'm inclined to go with townie myself, but I think more time is needed before it's certain.
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On April 02 2012 02:52 FourFace wrote:EBWOP: I'm pretty confused I was going to save up this reply for strongandbig: Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 00:40 strongandbig wrote: Either way we have the additional benefit that we're lynching someone who made a shitty push, then acted really defensive about it. ##vote: Kohbee [\b] That is pure horseshit. Kohbee = useful imo. You want to kill someone useful = suspicious. You claim he's defensive about his push.. when did that happen? HiroPro acted super defensive by saying he can relate to Kohbee. Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 04:30 HiroPro wrote: I don't think Kohbee is scum. His posts seem designed to provoke reactions from everyone. And these discussions help us find scum.
End of reply. But then Kohbee in fact retracted his vote and now lynching HiroPro has lost his lynching value. So I'm switching to my secondary target: Therapist ##Vote: Therapist
my secondary target now is strongandbig because he's also voting for Kohbee for no reason.
Specifically, it's because of the way he reacted to therapist. "I don't talk to scum" seems to me to be a scummy thing to say since it lets you avoid engaging the town more than you have to and this potentially tripping yourself up or having to reveal too much information.
Additionally, I maintain that choosing hiropro as the first lynch target was random. He had made one post between the start of the game and the time he was accused, and I see nothing in that one post to indicate he's any more or less suspicious than any of the other people who had, as of that accusation, only posted once or twice after receiving their roles. Now, I understand that calling out a random target could be a town action, to spark discussion and get more information out there. However - it could also be a scum action, hoping that a noob town bandwagons and gets a day 1 mislynch. It's a particularly safe scum action, since if the person flips town they could just claim they were trying to spark discussion.
SO - in my eyes, Kohbee still seems suspicious. However, maybe not suspicious enough to warrant lynching him day 1 instead of one of the lurk-ier players.
[b]##unvote:kohbee
I'm willing to change my vote in the next few hours to either solohan, marvellosity, or therapist, since those people seem to have the strongest cases against them. Omnom also, but he has a pretty good excuse and I can see how someone overworked and frustrated about running a tournament would just check in briefly and vote for the most abrasive poster in the thread. I would also be willing to vote for Kohbee again.
One last thing: I'm not sure why my question about the voting times seems suspicious. There was talk in the first few pages before the game started about changing the deadlines to accomodate European players, and I wasn't sure if that had gone through. I'm posting from my iPhone, which makes it hard to open one page of the thread at the same time as you're writing a post.
One more last thing, specifically to the people voting for solohan: he has t voted yet, so if he's not just lurking but actually afk, he would get mod killed. It might still be worth lynching him in case he votes right before the deadline, but IMO it would be more efficient to all agree that unless he says something soon we'll just let him get mod killed, and then all agree to lunch him if he suddenly pops up and tries to rude the deadline. Lynching him when he's going to get modkilled for violating the rules anyway seems like a waste of a town kill.
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I agree that Solohan's lurking is strange. I'd like to hear from him before I vote for him. If he doesn't say anything, I will change my vote to him because if he's not saying anything, he's not helping the town so he's a rather harmless lynch. On the other hand, he could be hiding scum just waiting to see what the nature of the thread is. But I think he has to react now in any case.
At this point, I have gotten some responses from various people. Based on the way people have responded to me, lynching me may be a good idea to see if my confirmed honesty sheds any light on the posting style of the people going after me.
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[QUOTE]On April 02 2012 03:48 KharadBanar wrote: [QUOTE]On April 02 2012 03:37 HiroPro wrote: FourFace isn't the most consistent player out there. All in all, that's a slight scumtell there but nothing that really warrants a vote in my eyes.
[/QUOTE]
Don't be silly KB, I am the most consistent player on the field.
You on the other hand have no insight. Did it ever occur to you that he will get replaced/modkilled if he fails to make the vote? If you lynch him on the other hand, and he's blue .. you just lynched a blue. So why vote for him, Sherlock? You people are just scared by this irrational, unforeseeable voting and that you might be the victim of it. Well mafia have every reason to be scared because being lynched on the first day is like being put in the corner with a dunce cap on.
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No worry, he just ninja'd three of you and gave an actual reason for his "lurking", which in reality was him being stranded in the desert.
##unvote
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Indeed, solohan has replied. What a ninja.
I wouldn't confirm anyone as anything at this point. I would be most interested in lynching someone who has garnered the most attention from the greatest number of individuals in this thread. Perhaps from there we could look back to see how people talked about that person. At this point, it looks like those prime candidates are Kohbee, FourFace, and Therapist.
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Ebwop: solohan just showed up while I was writing that post. Where I didn't even get the bbcode correct. Fuck you iPhone.
So scratch what I said about the modkill on solohan.
I've presented my semi-case on Kohbee. I acknowledge that it's not a full case; it's just some reasons to be suspicious. I stand by my read, but I also can see that continuing to vote Kohbee won't yield good results unless other players agree with me. Therefore, [b]##unvote:kohbee[\b]
It looks like the two main targets right now are solohan and therapist. I would still suggest we also consider marvellosity, since he joined the lynch a lurker bandwagon, and since he also joined the fourface is annoying bandwagon. However, I'm not ongus-Ing him; I think he would not be a good target right now, and his actions are also explainable from the town perspective.
Could someone give me the case against therapist? So far it seems to me like the case is that he went after Kohbee for going after hiropro, which makes him suspicious because hiropro might be his mafia teammate. I can see that being a legitimate argument, but I'm not persuaded by it; as I said above, the scum explanation for kohbee's early vote is just as strong as the town explanation in my opinion, and I could also just be the fact that therapist jumped to that conclusion.
The fact that he's not really defending himself does seem a bit suspicious though.
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On April 02 2012 04:21 KharadBanar wrote: No worry, he just ninja'd three of you and gave an actual reason for his "lurking", which in reality was him being stranded in the desert.
##unvote
This is exactly what I was referring to. By targeting a lurker you narrow down your perspective and get careless and blinded to more concrete tells happening all around. And then when the lurker finally says something, says whatever like heyyy my car broke down .. uhjjm where ? In VEGAS. OK? You just go for that like it's candy, being relieved that you didn't make the wrong choice of lynching poor cool guy with rl problems.
So, what do you have now.. what's your research .. where are your leads. You don't have anything. That's just sterling KB, awesome.
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What defense do you think I should offer for myself? It seems like a waste to try to convince people that I'm not scum, because no matter what it's my word against theirs. Besides, this isn't really about me. If after everyone expresses so much doubt against me and I get lynched and you see that I am Townie, the town learns a lot about the people who went after me!
I went after Kohbee right away because somebody needed to take the bait and get things started. Direct attacks get strong responses from everyone, so I think it was effective to do so.
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Ugh bbcode hates me. IPhone. Fuck.
(if anyone's curious, the wrong slash is on the same page of symbols as the square bracket, so I keep hitting it by accident.) ##unvote
Also therapist appears to have ninja'd me as well, iPhone fuck etc.
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More observations - I'm on the fence with Therapist as well. The random vote on Kohbee at the beginning of the game with no explanation makes me suspicious. As voting time gets closer, he also has been unusually self-sacrificing, having two posts where he has offered himself up as potential mafia. The motivations for this intrigue me. Is he a townie willing to take one for the team? Has he noticed a rising tide against him and throwing a hail mary, hoping that his offer of self-sacrifice will convince people he's Townie and thus spare his life?
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Especially in this day one environment of very very limited real information, there's really no convincing case I can make for myself. At this point we're trying to get the most information we can in any way possible.
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On April 02 2012 04:34 Therapist. wrote: What defense do you think I should offer for myself? It seems like a waste to try to convince people that I'm not scum, because no matter what it's my word against theirs. Besides, this isn't really about me. If after everyone expresses so much doubt against me and I get lynched and you see that I am Townie, the town learns a lot about the people who went after me!
I went after Kohbee right away because somebody needed to take the bait and get things started. Direct attacks get strong responses from everyone, so I think it was effective to do so.
It wasn't you stripped Kohbee's attempt to draw discussion by saying he should be the one starting discussion. It was very effective if you're scum.
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On April 02 2012 04:30 FourFace wrote: So, what do you have now.. what's your research .. where are your leads. You don't have anything. That's just sterling KB, awesome.
I didn't say I don't have anything. But I hadn't made a complete list of people ordering them by scumminess, I just had a "most viable" lynch in mind. Now that he has given a reason for him not receiving today's lynch, I' reconsidering. And excuse me if I don't instantly give away all my leads, because Mafia can operate on that. I will read the filters again and come up with someone better to vote.
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Anyway .. discussion is alright now, we got the momentum. So let's begin from the beginning.
HiroPro: super defensive. Says he's accusers have every right to do what they did. Sounds to me like he's the most scared player in this game, he's practically crying uncle every time he gets slapped.
Kohbee: i thought he would be more wise and stick to his vote to HiroPro because then we'd actually have an instrument. A lynch with guaranteed aftermath suspicions if all the players would've been forced to decide to either jump on the bandwagon or not. Now that he retracted his vote.. which I did first but it was an emotional reaction to marvs teasing, we got several bandwagons instead of just one and it's impossible to tell who has been on it from the start and who tied to Stalin defense etc. This was a great opportunity and we blew it. No, jumping on the lurker .. this was really really disappointing play if you are town.
FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Therapist: Why did it take so long for you to figure out what Kohbee was doing? You have been oblivious to everything else, you just let your silence tunnel him until recently when you finally broke your silence to be all .. you will regret having lynched me, slurp. Well you have only yourself to blame, and your lynch wouldn't even say anything, that's how useful you were to town if you truly are town.
I don't know about the rest. Marv's flip flop bandwagon jumping is too scummy to be scum. He could be scum thoug .. I seriously have no idea.
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Before the game started, Kohbee was overflowing at the mouth. He was posting lengthy diatribes while going back and forth with FourFace. Once the game started, however, he started with an immediate vote with very little reasoning. Two paragraphs about whether memes and SC2 jokes should be included in a game of Mafia, following by a ##vote with almost no explanation? I find this change of style very suspicious. He has continued the trend of talking very little throughout this thread, as well as flip-flopping on the vote and causing us to lose one of our big tell moments. Because of this, I'm casting my vote for Kohbee.
##Vote: Kohbee
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strongandbig are you seriously incapable of unvoting Kohbee? Omg.
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EBWOP: ok sorry .. you got it
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Current Vote Count
Fourface(2): omnomMuffins, marvellosity
Kohbee(2): Therapist., Solohan50
Solohan50(1): Hiropro
Therapist(1): Fourface
Not yet voted: strongandbig, Kohbee, KharadBanar Voting ends in apprx 4 Hours.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 02 2012 01:32 FourFace wrote: I think you're gay so I won't even try to understand you.
Fourface, please refrain from posting things like this. It's not appropriate here, and does not help build an atmosphere conducive to fun for all. Thanks
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And you feel the need to say this now? Why did he call my post the stupidest thing in this thread? I would never start to offend someone but if he clearly intends to mock me I just can't stfu, I can't I'm sorry.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
##unvote
So Solohan had unfortunate internet problems, and although Fourface has annoyed the poop out of me I don't particularly get a scumread off him.
As I'm finally home now I will take a look at some filters and see what I can come up with.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:07 FourFace wrote: And you feel the need to say this now? Why did he call my post the stupidest thing in this thread? I would never start to offend someone but if he clearly intends to mock me I just can't stfu, I can't I'm sorry.
You seem to not understand how you sound and come across. You went off on one at someone else on the thread earlier just because they called an idea stupid.
But when you're talking about gay this and finger in my ass that, you're being way ruder than anyone has been to you.
Just think before you post please.
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On April 02 2012 04:58 Solohan50 wrote: Before the game started, Kohbee was overflowing at the mouth. He was posting lengthy diatribes while going back and forth with FourFace. Once the game started, however, he started with an immediate vote with very little reasoning. Two paragraphs about whether memes and SC2 jokes should be included in a game of Mafia, following by a ##vote with almost no explanation? I find this change of style very suspicious. He has continued the trend of talking very little throughout this thread, as well as flip-flopping on the vote and causing us to lose one of our big tell moments. Because of this, I'm casting my vote for Kohbee.
##Vote: Kohbee but i got what i wanted out of hiro which was a townie response.
I haven't had much to say.
I am thinking right now we should be voting marvel or strongandbig
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On April 02 2012 05:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:07 FourFace wrote: And you feel the need to say this now? Why did he call my post the stupidest thing in this thread? I would never start to offend someone but if he clearly intends to mock me I just can't stfu, I can't I'm sorry. You seem to not understand how you sound and come across. You went off on one at someone else on the thread earlier just because they called an idea stupid. But when you're talking about gay this and finger in my ass that, you're being way ruder than anyone has been to you. Just think before you post please.
I can't possibly know about your sexual orientation, and I don't have any problem whatsoever with gay people. But if you don't understand that insulting someone's idea is taking something he was intellectually investing in and shitting on it .. I don't think you should be allowed on forums.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm happy to discuss this further via PM if you like Fourface. Basically the gist is this: If he wants to call your post stupid, I'm pretty ok with that(particularly since he's not calling you stupid, which I would have more of a problem with). On the other hand, using the term gay as an insult alienates other forum members based on their sexual orientation, which I am not ok with.
Again, I'm more than happy to discuss this in depth via PM if you prefer.
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I think we can get back to the discussion now.
Would it be too late to start voting for Hiro?
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United States5684 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:15 FourFace wrote: I think we can get back to the discussion now.
Would it be too late to start voting for Hiro? its not too late for anyone. I don't think hiro is scum and I think his reaction to my vote was that of one who doesn't care about being voted for. He reacted as I would as town.
Marvel and the rapist should be who we are looking at
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I KEEP FUCKING DOING THIS. OK LEAVING HIS ROOM
quoting for filter
On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:15 FourFace wrote: I think we can get back to the discussion now.
Would it be too late to start voting for Hiro? its not too late for anyone. I don't think hiro is scum and I think his reaction to my vote was that of one who doesn't care about being voted for. He reacted as I would as town. Marvel and the rapist should be who we are looking at
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EBWOB: yes it would damnit FF think. Instrument. Instrument. We can lynch ... hmmm yeah I'd vote for Hiro the scardycat. I definitely would. Therapist .. who is he voting for. He's still voting for Kohbee .. that guy's got balls hhaahaha
Conclusion. Wasted day 1. I can not account for anything if Therapist happens to get lynched and he flips town .. because it was just a lowsy Chainsaw defence.
I've had some tells on Kohbee though. Wow. I'm just gonna post this and see what others are saying
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@Mattchew state your business here. April fools? lame
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[QUOTE]On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote: [QUOTE]On April 02 2012 05:15 FourFace wrote: He reacted as I would as town. [/QUOTE]
Is that a scumslip? He reacted as you would if you were town, meaning you're scum?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:27 FourFace wrote: @Mattchew state your business here. April fools? lame
Kohbee and Mattchew are roommates, and Kohbee keeps mistakenly posting from Mattchew's account. It's not a huge deal, but hopefully one he can remedy swiftly.
Kohbee if it happens again in future, just leave Mattchews post, and repost it in it's entirety again under your own name(like you did but without the quotes or commentary). Thanks
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what the hell EBWOP:
On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote: He reacted as I would as town.
Is that a scumslip? He reacted as you would if you were town, meaning you're scum?
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On April 02 2012 05:35 FourFace wrote:what the hell EBWOP: Is that a scumslip? He reacted as you would if you were town, meaning you're scum? no. can we get back to talking about marvel and therapist
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:24 FourFace wrote: EBWOB: yes it would damnit FF think. Instrument. Instrument. We can lynch ... hmmm yeah I'd vote for Hiro the scardycat. I definitely would. Therapist .. who is he voting for. He's still voting for Kohbee .. that guy's got balls hhaahaha
Conclusion. Wasted day 1. I can not account for anything if Therapist happens to get lynched and he flips town .. because it was just a lowsy Chainsaw defence.
I've had some tells on Kohbee though. Wow. I'm just gonna post this and see what others are saying
Why do you think Hiro? He defended your position without being prompted to, I don't think he'd feel the need to if he were mafia.
On April 02 2012 03:22 HiroPro wrote: To the people voting FourFace, how does that make any sense. FourFace has been one of the few people to try to get something going. Mafia would never try to lead the way FourFace is. Mafia lurk and try to remain hidden.
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On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier.
Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate?
##Vote: Therapist
This is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-)
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:37 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:35 FourFace wrote:what the hell EBWOP: On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote: He reacted as I would as town.
Is that a scumslip? He reacted as you would if you were town, meaning you're scum? no. can we get back to talking about marvel and therapist
Unlike therapist, I would like to defend myself a little bit. Voting on Fourface was silly but he was being very annoying and I never intended for it to be a real vote.
I still think that my vote for Solohan at the time was a solid one. Without having any solid scum read, having my vote on someone who hadn't posted seemed like a decent way forward.
Meanwhile I have been through everyone's filters and I'm struggling. I'm leaning towards Kohbee, his treatment of therapist has been very strange. Take a look at therapist's filter and tell me what's scummy in there. I also didn't understand Kohbee's initial strange accusation against HiroPro, who incidentally has seemed quite townie since.
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Right now, it seems like there are plenty of people who are potential scum, but for any of them do we learn something if they flip town? I don't think so, unfortunately.
Actually, even if Kohbee had kept his vote on hiro, the lynch had gone through, and hiro flipped scum, what would we have learned? At most, Kohbee would've been confirmed town, and gotten shot that night; I don't think confirming a single townie when they push a successful lynch is that valuable, since they would be an obvious target.
That said, I'd like to point out how Kohbee subtly omgus'd me, then retreated from it before I had a chance to respond.
I'm not convinced by the "if you were town" comment but I still think Kohbee is the scummiest person out there.
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On April 02 2012 05:40 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier. Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate? ##Vote: TherapistThis is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-) tbh I don't have any strong scum reads. Mostly I have a few town reads who I will not let get lynched today. Other than that Idk, all 3 of strong marvel and therapist are good lynches imo today
##vote therapist
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On April 02 2012 05:49 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:40 KharadBanar wrote:On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier. Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate? ##Vote: TherapistThis is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-) tbh I don't have any strong scum reads. Mostly I have a few town reads who I will not let get lynched today. Other than that Idk, all 3 of strong marvel and therapist are good lynches imo today ##vote therapist
Who do you have good town reads on and why?
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On April 02 2012 02:48 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:27 strongandbig wrote:On April 02 2012 02:09 FourFace wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: FourFace at least I'll give you a real reason to vote me .. i'm the third person to jump on the bandwagon Pretty sure you can't vote for yourself, we went over that earlier. As for reads on me, it should be pretty easy; I think that unless Kohbee explains his early accusation on hiropro, it's suspicious. Personally I think that a case could definitely be made on fourface for being kind of domineering and trying to control the game, but I don't think he's scum yet. He was behaving exactly the same way before the game. Sure it's kind of obnoxious, but lynching someone for being obnoxious is exactly what mafia wants. I did. Why are you so bothered by it
This is OMGUS?
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Are you in a hurry to get those votes off you? Are you looking at me to shift the tide. Dude, remember how you totally tried to piss me off with your feigned ignorance. I almost think you expected me do do exactly the opposite of what you suggest as a response. You accuse someone, then you thought I'd come swinging in to defend him so you can nail me with chainsaw defence. I did exactly the opposite and voted likewise. That got you a little confused, then you realized your trap didn't go so well.
You know what Kohbee .. if we were both scum, the mutual cancellation of our efforts to get discussion going would have been genious. You with random voting .. me with random questions cockblocking your random voting. Your energic refusal of cooperating with my random questions. It would've been beautiful.
##Unvote
##Vote: Kohbee
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On April 02 2012 05:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:49 Kohbee wrote:On April 02 2012 05:40 KharadBanar wrote:On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier. Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate? ##Vote: TherapistThis is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-) tbh I don't have any strong scum reads. Mostly I have a few town reads who I will not let get lynched today. Other than that Idk, all 3 of strong marvel and therapist are good lynches imo today ##vote therapist Who do you have good town reads on and why? There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline.
Why do you want to know this?
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On April 02 2012 05:52 FourFace wrote: Are you in a hurry to get those votes off you? Are you looking at me to shift the tide. Dude, remember how you totally tried to piss me off with your feigned ignorance. I almost think you expected me do do exactly the opposite of what you suggest as a response. You accuse someone, then you thought I'd come swinging in to defend him so you can nail me with chainsaw defence. I did exactly the opposite and voted likewise. That got you a little confused, then you realized your trap didn't go so well.
You know what Kohbee .. if we were both scum, the mutual cancellation of our efforts to get discussion going would have been genious. You with random voting .. me with random questions cockblocking your random voting. Your energic refusal of cooperating with my random questions. It would've been beautiful.
##Unvote
##Vote: Kohbee
When did I try to piss you off? I don't understand a single reason of why you are voting for me. Are you that self centered to think that my play revolves how you will react. I wasn't looking for a reaction from you I was looking for a reaction from hiropro.
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On April 02 2012 05:53 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:51 marvellosity wrote:On April 02 2012 05:49 Kohbee wrote:On April 02 2012 05:40 KharadBanar wrote:On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier. Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate? ##Vote: TherapistThis is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-) tbh I don't have any strong scum reads. Mostly I have a few town reads who I will not let get lynched today. Other than that Idk, all 3 of strong marvel and therapist are good lynches imo today ##vote therapist Who do you have good town reads on and why? There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline. Why do you want to know this?
Scum already know who all the townies are, and presumably they will bump off either those who generally they think pose the greatest threat, or those who were somehow on the right track.
I'd like to know because I'd like to know how and why you think, and to open up other avenues in my own thought process (as mentioned before, I went through everyone's filters and my reads were wishy washy :/)
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My vote on Kohbee stands. I think his posting patterns are the kind that would have people start shifting blame around the wrong places while he quietly steps back and occasionally changes his target to make sure no solid read can be made.
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i already said i don't have any solid reads.. yeah your gonna be my solid vote though
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On April 02 2012 05:59 Therapist. wrote: My vote on Kohbee stands. I think his posting patterns are the kind that would have people start shifting blame around the wrong places while he quietly steps back and occasionally changes his target to make sure no solid read can be made.
If Kohbee flips town, you are in a heap of trouble.. and so am I. If he filps red, one of us will most likely be shot dead. Partner.
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fourface how about we lynch someone bad instead. like therapist
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can we get an update on vote
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For death and glory then if it's meant to be. Calling me partner is rather awkward though. We may both be prime targets if he flips town, but the gun definitely seems to be more on me than you. So if that statements leads people to believe that we are actually mafia partners and Kohbee flips Town... people might go for me first. If you were mafia and you knew both Kohbee and myself to be Town, that would be a great way to get two lynches wasted right off the bat.
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yes it would. That's why i like you.. you are not dumb.
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On April 02 2012 05:51 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:48 Kohbee wrote:On April 02 2012 02:27 strongandbig wrote:On April 02 2012 02:09 FourFace wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: FourFace at least I'll give you a real reason to vote me .. i'm the third person to jump on the bandwagon Pretty sure you can't vote for yourself, we went over that earlier. As for reads on me, it should be pretty easy; I think that unless Kohbee explains his early accusation on hiropro, it's suspicious. Personally I think that a case could definitely be made on fourface for being kind of domineering and trying to control the game, but I don't think he's scum yet. He was behaving exactly the same way before the game. Sure it's kind of obnoxious, but lynching someone for being obnoxious is exactly what mafia wants. I did. Why are you so bothered by it This is OMGUS?
No, I was clearly referring to the post you made where you said either I or marv would be a good lunch, which you followed up with one saying that therapist and marv would be good lynch candidates. That's why I called it subtle, you didn't actually. It for me in response to my having voted for you earlier; you just slipped my name into your little list of scum candidates.
##vote:kohbee
Still open to voting for one of the candidates I mentioned in previous posts if someone makes a really good case in the next few hours.
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can someone tell me why they are voting me that doesn't involve made up OMGUS (its called suspicion not OMGUS), pressure voting, and some crazy shit fourface typed?
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Vote Count Last updated: Monday, Apr 02 11:50pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
Kohbee (4): Therapist, Solohan50, FourFace, strongandbig
Therapist (2): KharadBanar, Kohbee
Solohan50 (1): HiroPro
FourFace (1): omnomMuffins
Not yet voted: marvellosity
Day 1 Voting ends in approximately 1 hour and 10 minutes.
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what happens if marv fails to vote ?
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So with less than an hour left and me leading the vote by 2 I am going to claim (this fucking sucks)
I am Sane Cop
Here are my reads
If I live I hope to god this is the cop/doc version
If im lynched go after marvel and therapist first. I wish I could have checked them
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People this is the time to post. What's going on?
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I am claiming sane cop and you are still voting me
any questions?
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EBWOP: strongandbig, omnomMuffins, Solohan50 HiroPro and KB were all there when the game started you want to tell me they can't be here to post now? wtf is going on.
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EBWOP: @ Kohbee .. do you know how unlikely it is for you to be Sane Cop?
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EBWOP: I am prepared to take my vote off you
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Well, if I continue to get lynched and town wins, you can atleast say, "we had the worst start to a game ever and still won"... Do you really want to take the risk of lynching town's sane cop?
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Why are we so goddamn alone? It's 3 o clock in the morning I can't make rational decisions. I'm just gonna let you die and go to sleep. Sorry about that BBye.
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Cool, remind me why scum would share all their reads with you when faced with being lynched? oh thats right they wouldn't.
You all suck
(this is OMGUS strong)
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If you do turn out to be the sane cop, that would be pretty bad news for the town. Doesn't look like the situation is changing at this point though.
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It's all or nothing. Personally I am super curious if he is indeed blue.
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you and fourface could switch to anyone with me and the lynch would change, but meh w.e
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On April 02 2012 08:44 FourFace wrote: It's all or nothing. Personally I am super curious if he is indeed blue. this post is so unfathomably stupid
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In that case the damage would be done. Mafia would be on your ass every night.
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This is my first game of mafia after all. If you're a townie, I'll take a good lesson from this for the future.
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On April 02 2012 08:46 Therapist. wrote: This is my first game of mafia after all. If you're a townie, I'll take a good lesson from this for the future. PLEASE LYNCH THIS MAN AFTER I DIE
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On April 02 2012 08:45 FourFace wrote: In that case the damage would be done. Mafia would be on your ass every night. so the chance of a doc being able to save a scum hit isn't appealing at all to you?
holy shit wtf am i reading
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If there's another blue in town he can still be protected. If anyone else is ready to take his vote off Kohbee, I'm ready to follow unless I really don't agree with the new vote.
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note that my vote is already not on Kohbee
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On April 02 2012 08:47 KharadBanar wrote: If there's another blue in town he can still be protected. If anyone else is ready to take his vote off Kohbee, I'm ready to follow unless I really don't agree with the new vote. I am sorry that I will have gotten you killed night 1... if anything it is a sign of how well you played
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I played a day on newb mini mafia 4 so technically I have 48 hours of additional experience to add to yours
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What on earth is going on? Why on earth are we lynching one of the most pro-town people. Therapist's main contribution has been imagining a ridiculous WIFOM scenario and people are voting for Kohbee!!!
Unvote: Solohan50
##Vote: Therapist.
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where the fuck are these US Americans
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On April 02 2012 08:47 KharadBanar wrote: If there's another blue in town he can still be protected. If anyone else is ready to take his vote off Kohbee, I'm ready to follow unless I really don't agree with the new vote.
I think Therapist is a more likely mafia than Kohbee, just about. We're running out of time and I don't really know what to do. This could just be a desperate ploy from a Kohbee mafia as he's about to die, or he could be telling the truth. Therapist has posted quite cleverly but much less. I'm open for anyone with some strong leadership because apparently that isn't me atm :/
##Vote: Therapist
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On April 02 2012 08:46 Therapist. wrote: This is my first game of mafia after all. If you're a townie, I'll take a good lesson from this for the future.
FourFace, Solohan50 and strongandbig: There is still the possibility of switching your vote to Therapist.
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EBWOP: full stop missing in vote...
##Vote: Therapist.
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ebwop: holy shit this bandwagon is fast
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On April 02 2012 08:49 HiroPro wrote: What on earth is going on? Why on earth are we lynching one of the most pro-town people. Therapist's main contribution has been imagining a ridiculous WIFOM scenario and people are voting for Kohbee!!!
Unvote: Solohan50
##Vote: Therapist.
Where the fuck were you ?
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I hope you guys take an important lesson from my death then. You're lynching a townie.
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On April 02 2012 08:51 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 08:49 HiroPro wrote: What on earth is going on? Why on earth are we lynching one of the most pro-town people. Therapist's main contribution has been imagining a ridiculous WIFOM scenario and people are voting for Kohbee!!!
Unvote: Solohan50
##Vote: Therapist. Where the fuck were you ?
I can't sit at my computer the entire day making sure that people don't do idiotic things.
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marvel you magnificent bastard since when are you town?
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There is absolutely no reason to lynch Therapist ..cut that shit out. Vote for me if you can't vote for anything else
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Gah, I need to eat before the dining hall closes. This better end well.
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I hope you realize that all Kohbee did was essentially say "I'm such a nice guy. Don't vote for me. Vote for Therapist." And that's all it takes.
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On April 02 2012 08:53 Kohbee wrote: marvel you magnificent bastard since when are you town?
I've been town all along, I just haven't done a very good job of showing it.
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EBWOP: I still think Therapist. is townie, but I think the chance he's mafia is a bit higher right now than Kohbee.
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marvel if you don't get your vote off Therapist now I'll ...
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On April 02 2012 08:53 FourFace wrote: There is absolutely no reason to lynch Therapist ..cut that shit out. Vote for me if you can't vote for anything else
And let Kohbee die? You make no sense. A vote for you is as good as not voting.
This flood control thing is really annoying....
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##Unvote
##Vote: marvellosity
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On April 02 2012 08:55 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 08:53 FourFace wrote: There is absolutely no reason to lynch Therapist ..cut that shit out. Vote for me if you can't vote for anything else
And let Kohbee die? You make no sense. A vote for you is as good as not voting. This flood control thing is really annoying.... logic and reason, in my newbie game? wtf get out
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On April 02 2012 08:56 FourFace wrote: ##Unvote
##Vote: marvellosity LOLOLOLOLOLOL
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EVeryone VOTE for MARVEL .. SHIT!
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I think this smells too much like desperation on Kohbee's part. It's a little too convenient that the top pick for Mafia is not only town, but also a blue. I'm keeping my vote right where it is.
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He can't be touched right now .. Vote for the guy who most blatantly saves him from the lynch. vote for marvel. That marvel you are town thing ... yes dear I am . is just total horseshit
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Therapist ffs vote for marvellosity type it !
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On April 02 2012 09:00 Solohan50 wrote: I think this smells too much like desperation on Kohbee's part. It's a little too convenient that the top pick for Mafia is not only town, but also a blue. I'm keeping my vote right where it is.
You might well be right. But imo Kohbee has done more for town so far than therapist. If Kohbee is mafia he must be laughing so hard at me right now
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You are both laughing. Therapist has nothing to do with anything. Everyone take your vote off Kohbee but don't lynch Therapist .. it's useless in every sense of the word.
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Day 1 Final Vote Count
Therapist. (4): KharadBanar, Kohbee, HiroPro, marvellosity
Kohbee (3): Therapist., Solohan50, strongandbig
FourFace (1): omnomMuffins,
marvellosity (1): FourFace
Night 1
The day went very slowly at the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo. Due to the incident, the employees had to close the place off the public. People were wandering around during their routines, but this time they had a worried look on their face. Who could have done such a thing? As the workers happened to pass each other every once a while, not a single word was exchanged compared to the normal happy chattering that could be heard from a distance.
As the evening came, no-one could stand the atmosphere anymore. Actions would have to be taken. Finally, an initiative was heard through the speaker system. "Everyone, please gather at the laboratory. I believe we all know that something has to be done."
After a while, all employees had finally arrived at the lab. At first it was quiet, they were barely looking at each other, but eventually more and more mean looks were being exchanged. Everyone was suspecting everyone. All the dear work that had been done together meant nothing to some, but no-one reacted such. Moments later, a voice was finally heard.
"Therapist., you've been acting weird today. Even during the circumstances, it seems like you are hiding something from us."
Therapist.: "What, are you serious? Everyone is worried sick due to what has happened, and we haven't been talking to each other at all! Now you come out and say I'm suspicious? You shouldn't be hasty, we really need to think this through!"
Out of the crowd, someone shouted: "Well, aren't you quick to defend yourself? If you want to prove your innocence so badly, why don't you take a sip of this?"
A vial containing purple liquid was placed on the table. Not everyone was sure of what it contained, but the ones who knew, quickly enlightened the unknowing ones. It contained a serum that is used to hasten the recovery of certain seal species in case of illness.
"The enzymes in this serum react a bit differently with the human body. Especially when someone is nervous or lying, it will cause very painful muscle cramps. But that's nothing to fear if you're innocent, right?"
The group of workers quickly closed in on Therapist. and forced the serum down his throat. All of it.
"Speak up now! Who are the ones trying to ruin years of our hard work for these endangered species just to gain some filthy cash?"
Therapist.: "How on earth would I know? You guys are paranoid! Sit and calm down, we won't get anywhere by going at each other's throats, we need to be constructive.
Everyone nodded. Quietness fell down on the group as they were thinking of what to do. Suddenly, there were sounds of someone being about to choke. Others watched from aside helplessly, as pimples started to appear on Therapist.. It wasn't long before the body dropped down dead on the ground. Apparently, some sort of allergic reaction had caused the choke.
"Well... it seems like we lost one of the loyal ones...", a sad voice emerged from the group. Still shocked about what had happened, the sad employees decided to spend the night at the zoo to honour the memory of Therapist..
Therapist., the Townie has been lynched!
Night 1 has begun! Please send in your actions to both Radfield and Cephiro. Night ends in 24 hours, on Tuesday, Apr 03 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
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You made me let my buddy die. Now I'm pissed
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Bah.
Ok let's think. Therapist is townie, and if Kohbee is telling the truth, he is blue cop. If that is the case, the clear play for mafia is to hit Kohbee. Mafia could go for the double bluff and not hit Kohbee, but if he's the cop it's way too risky because he could find out their alignment.
If Kohbee is lying, then he's mafia. And if Kohbee is mafia, then I think we can say without doubt he won't be killing himself.
So we should know at the end of the night what is what.
I think I might have done something stupid in voting for Therapist, because Kohbee roleclaiming is a way of signing his own death warrant, so we should have just lynched him anyway. Le sigh
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since i know that i am cop it would have been stupid for scum to switch off of me and not let me get lynched.
Solohan50, strongandbig, omnomMuffins, FourFace
Of these 4 is probably our scum team
btw if a doc or jailer is out there please please please save me kthx.
gotta go for the night be back on tomorrow
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Ugh. At least he wasn't blue.
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Okay I've been playing an sc2 lotr game for the last few hours.
Regarding kohbee... I'm not sure what to think. I don't know why a blue would have acted the way he did all day, seems like a blue wouldn't have gone for a random starter lynch. If kohbee isn't scum then that was a really dumb action.
Additionally, I still doubt the "trying to start discussion" story because of his response to therapist, which was just "I don't talk to scum" rather than actually discussing the questions. That doesn't sound like someone hunting scum to me.
However, if he is scum it puts us in a bind. We don't know how many of each role are in the game so the fact that no one counter-claimed doesn't mean he's confirmed. But, if he is blue we can't really risk lynching him.
Everyone's homework for tonight - try to think of a way we can confirm or deny kohbee's role/alignment without lynching him. Because I'm not going to believe him just because he said so.
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mafia has a roleblocker. I am basically a vanilla townie from now on.
also, can you tell me why you said
I don't know why a blue would have acted the way he did all day, seems like a blue wouldn't have gone for a random starter lynch. If kohbee isn't scum then that was a really dumb action.
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On April 02 2012 12:05 Kohbee wrote:mafia has a roleblocker. I am basically a vanilla townie from now on. also, can you tell me why you said Show nested quote +I don't know why a blue would have acted the way he did all day, seems like a blue wouldn't have gone for a random starter lynch. If kohbee isn't scum then that was a really dumb action.
Because someone with a helpful role for the town wouldn't want to jump right out and bring the heat on themselves before they could use their power to help the town. At least, that's what I think.
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Hey guys, sorry I wasn't on, my support staff totally disappeared today so I was running the invitational by myself all day (it was said on stream by the casters for proof).
Basically to explain my vote against FourFace was that I really have no patience for dealing with people with bad attitudes and his comment that he was reprimanded for stuck me in a bad way.
I see that we lynched a townie, and I will post my conclusions on people tomorrow after I wake up (been working about 20 hours straight), and get a chance to actually digest what is going on
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At least it was fairly interesting. But now we need to discuss the last hour and specially the last 5 minutes before the lynch happened in the context of everyone's behavior throughout the entire game.
On April 02 2012 14:21 omnomMuffins wrote:Hey guys, sorry I wasn't on, my support staff totally disappeared today so I was running the invitational by myself all day (it was said on stream by the casters for proof). #1Basically to explain my vote against FourFace was that I really have no patience for dealing with people with bad attitudes and his comment that he was reprimanded for stuck me in a bad way. #2I see that we lynched a townie, and I will post my conclusions on people tomorrow after I wake up (been working about 20 hours straight), and get a chance to actually digest what is going on
#1 Whatever man
#2 I don't care and nobody asked you to explain anything. Something major happened and you are talking about something totally different and insignificant while having an excuse not to talk about the real issues. I just hate excuses I really do. rtft in chronological order
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On April 02 2012 14:21 omnomMuffins wrote:Hey guys, sorry I wasn't on, my support staff totally disappeared today so I was running the invitational by myself all day (it was said on stream by the casters for proof). Basically to explain my vote against FourFace was that I really have no patience for dealing with people with bad attitudes and his comment that he was reprimanded for stuck me in a bad way. I see that we lynched a townie, and I will post my conclusions on people tomorrow after I wake up (been working about 20 hours straight), and get a chance to actually digest what is going on
This is extremely bad and scummy. You don't talk about anything of value, your vote doesn't make any sense in a game of mafia and you don't seem to care about reading the thread.
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On April 02 2012 14:17 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:05 Kohbee wrote:mafia has a roleblocker. I am basically a vanilla townie from now on. also, can you tell me why you said I don't know why a blue would have acted the way he did all day, seems like a blue wouldn't have gone for a random starter lynch. If kohbee isn't scum then that was a really dumb action. Because someone with a helpful role for the town wouldn't want to jump right out and bring the heat on themselves before they could use their power to help the town. At least, that's what I think. If we as a town are depending on our blues then we already lost. While it can be extremely helpful to confirm accusations and clear mislynches, our play in the thread not relating to blues is what will make or break town.
There never should have been any heat on me as I have done nothing wrong. It is the fault of everyone voting for me that I had to blue claim. If you are town you should have seen me as someone willing to put the spotlight on themselves, explain what they are doing/did, and actually trying to scum hunt in a time there was none.
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Kohbee, the problem atm is that I'm increasingly thinking that claiming cop was dumb at best, and scummy at worst. Revealing yourself before you've had the chance to do anything just seems so counterproductive.
Plus we don't even know if we have a doc or jailer on our team should we actually even agree you should be protected.
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So I was supposed to just sit there and get lynched? Think about it this way. If I never claimed, got lynched and flipped Sane Cop, wouldn't you think that was way more stupid?
Plus, if there is a doc and we lynch the roleblocker, I will be able to start checking again.
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also, I provide the town with 1 extra lynch by claiming. If theres no doc, I most likely get killed. If I get killed you get the benefit of not having to waste a lynch on a townie
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7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair. That's all I know for sure. I've got a really long fucking txt. document about Kohbee which I will publish just before night 1 ends to make sure the night actions have been sent via pm to the host.
I'll only quote the beginning of that document now:
"Kohbee, you are obviously the one to investigate right now. Get used to people asking you the same questions multiple times. The best you can do is patiently answer all of them at your best ability without any emotional connotations whatsoever.
Let me just fire up your filter real quick because I remember a lot of senseless stuff that you threw out there for people to take action in your favor. I am curious if what you said makes sense to you at this point."
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Fourface, would you tell me what you think of the blueclaim?
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On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair. That's all I know for sure. I've got a really long fucking txt. document about Kohbee which I will publish just before night 1 ends to make sure the night actions have been sent via pm to the host.
I'll only quote the beginning of that document now:
I can't be in a scum pair because i am not scum. however solohan, omnomnom and strong should all be looked at very very closely
"Kohbee, you are obviously the one to investigate right now. Get used to people asking you the same questions multiple times. The best you can do is patiently answer all of them at your best ability without any emotional connotations whatsoever.
I don't need coaching. I will be ready and willing to answer all questions, however I will not hesitate to call out stupid when i see it.
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On April 02 2012 22:02 marvellosity wrote: Fourface, would you tell me what you think of the blueclaim? Don't like my explanation?
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I think you're halfway right about it
On April 02 2012 21:14 marvellosity wrote: Kohbee, the problem atm is that I'm increasingly thinking that claiming cop was dumb at best, and scummy at worst. Revealing yourself before you've had the chance to do anything just seems so counterproductive.
Plus we don't even know if we have a doc or jailer on our team should we actually even agree you should be protected.
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On April 02 2012 22:04 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 22:02 marvellosity wrote: Fourface, would you tell me what you think of the blueclaim? Don't like my explanation?
It's more that I'd like to reach a consensus on it, not that what you said makes no sense.
As it stands, your blueclaim and therapist's lynch at the end of Day 1 seem to be the first big pivotal moment in this game (which I'm well aware I contributed to by voting therapist at the end).
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On April 02 2012 22:04 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair. That's all I know for sure. I've got a really long fucking txt. document about Kohbee which I will publish just before night 1 ends to make sure the night actions have been sent via pm to the host.
I'll only quote the beginning of that document now:
I can't be in a scum pair because i am not scum. however solohan, omnomnom and strong should all be looked at very very closely Show nested quote + "Kohbee, you are obviously the one to investigate right now. Get used to people asking you the same questions multiple times. The best you can do is patiently answer all of them at your best ability without any emotional connotations whatsoever.
I don't need coaching. I will be ready and willing to answer all questions, however I will not hesitate to call out stupid when i see it.
You can't be serious about this being the way you handle the accusations. I suggest you take your time before posting anything regarding any new post that comes up with you as the protagonist. Stop saying you're not scum, that you're not stupid, that someone else should be investigated. If anyone can save you now it's you and I suggest you do it with logical argumentation and sincere honesty while omitting the parts that cannot be verified because they are irrelevant. You have all that has been said in this game to your disposal. Good luck
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EBMOP: as improbable as it seems you even have meta
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On April 02 2012 22:14 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 22:04 Kohbee wrote:On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair. That's all I know for sure. I've got a really long fucking txt. document about Kohbee which I will publish just before night 1 ends to make sure the night actions have been sent via pm to the host.
I'll only quote the beginning of that document now:
I can't be in a scum pair because i am not scum. however solohan, omnomnom and strong should all be looked at very very closely "Kohbee, you are obviously the one to investigate right now. Get used to people asking you the same questions multiple times. The best you can do is patiently answer all of them at your best ability without any emotional connotations whatsoever.
I don't need coaching. I will be ready and willing to answer all questions, however I will not hesitate to call out stupid when i see it. You can't be serious about this being the way you handle the accusations. I suggest you take your time before posting anything regarding any new post that comes up with you as the protagonist. Stop saying you're not scum, that you're not stupid, that someone else should be investigated. If anyone can save you now it's you and I suggest you do it with logical argumentation and sincere honesty while omitting the parts that cannot be verified because they are irrelevant. You have all that has been said in this game to your disposal. Good luck Here's some logic. You can lynch me and watch me flip blue. Or you can listen to me and lynch solohan, strong and/or omnomnom.
These 3 are most likely your scum team. Here is why. If scum had a chance to lynch a blue day 1 they are certainly not going to move off of it. If they wanted to save me to give themselves some "cred" they would have probably done it differently.
Fourface I believe you cleared yourself by switching off of me thus making sure I was not lynched. You also post like you care about the game but not what others think about you. which is good
No one should doubt KB being town he has played far too openly and actively this game to be scum.
Hiropro was town before voting therapist but made himself more clear when he came in, argued against my lynch and voted therapist. (He is the only one I am still a little on the fence about but for now it is probably safer to assume he is scum)
Marvel was high on my scum list, but there is no way a scum player would be the finisher to saving a blue's lynch.
Solohan lurked (wasnt online w.e) the entire day comes into the thread blazing with accusations at me that were baseless and stupid.
Strong has been posting scummy all game. He is rather defensive and he tries to create different meanings, that favor his opinions, from players posts
Omnomnom doesn't give a shit about reading the thread. This could be because of ONOG, but it also could be because of him being scum and watching the town have little to no pressure on him.
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On April 02 2012 22:26 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 22:14 FourFace wrote:On April 02 2012 22:04 Kohbee wrote:On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair. That's all I know for sure. I've got a really long fucking txt. document about Kohbee which I will publish just before night 1 ends to make sure the night actions have been sent via pm to the host.
I'll only quote the beginning of that document now:
I can't be in a scum pair because i am not scum. however solohan, omnomnom and strong should all be looked at very very closely "Kohbee, you are obviously the one to investigate right now. Get used to people asking you the same questions multiple times. The best you can do is patiently answer all of them at your best ability without any emotional connotations whatsoever.
I don't need coaching. I will be ready and willing to answer all questions, however I will not hesitate to call out stupid when i see it. You can't be serious about this being the way you handle the accusations. I suggest you take your time before posting anything regarding any new post that comes up with you as the protagonist. Stop saying you're not scum, that you're not stupid, that someone else should be investigated. If anyone can save you now it's you and I suggest you do it with logical argumentation and sincere honesty while omitting the parts that cannot be verified because they are irrelevant. You have all that has been said in this game to your disposal. Good luck Here's some logic. You can lynch me and watch me flip blue. Or you can listen to me and lynch solohan, strong and/or omnomnom. These 3 are most likely your scum team. Here is why. If scum had a chance to lynch a blue day 1 they are certainly not going to move off of it. If they wanted to save me to give themselves some "cred" they would have probably done it differently. Fourface I believe you cleared yourself by switching off of me thus making sure I was not lynched. You also post like you care about the game but not what others think about you. which is good No one should doubt KB being town he has played far too openly and actively this game to be scum. Hiropro was town before voting therapist but made himself more clear when he came in, argued against my lynch and voted therapist. (He is the only one I am still a little on the fence about but for now it is probably safer to assume he is scum)Marvel was high on my scum list, but there is no way a scum player would be the finisher to saving a blue's lynch. Solohan lurked (wasnt online w.e) the entire day comes into the thread blazing with accusations at me that were baseless and stupid. Strong has been posting scummy all game. He is rather defensive and he tries to create different meanings, that favor his opinions, from players posts Omnomnom doesn't give a shit about reading the thread. This could be because of ONOG, but it also could be because of him being scum and watching the town have little to no pressure on him.
If you are blue I'm not quite sure how this makes sense. Hiro came in and said your lynch was stupid given past posting behaviour on the thread, and he could probably have got you lynched if he'd come down firmly the other way.
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On April 02 2012 22:26 Kohbee wrote:
Marvel was high on my scum list, but there is no way a scum player would be the finisher to saving a blue's lynch.
How could he have known that you are blue and not scum trying to say whatever it takes to save his skin and be the laughingstock of the community.
For all you know he was the one to finish the lynch on a town player
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the only holdup on hiro is that if he was scum he would know that i would flip blue (or atleast green) He also would have known therapist would flip green too. Since his vote was only the 3rd on therapist (which even with fourface switching would have still left me lynched) he still accounts for not as townie as everyone else in the situation.
Basically, in my eyes, marvel, four, KB, and myself are confirmed town. Right now we have 3 lynches to use, and if we lynch 1 scum member we have 4. If we lynch solo strong omnom and only get 1 scum hiro would be my last pick for scum.
That being said i think the 2 man scum team is in my 3 picks for scum
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EBWOP: and not be the laughing .. whatever forget that part.
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On April 02 2012 22:41 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 22:26 Kohbee wrote:
Marvel was high on my scum list, but there is no way a scum player would be the finisher to saving a blue's lynch.
How could he have known that you are blue and not scum trying to say whatever it takes to save his skin and be the laughingstock of the community. For all you know he was the one to finish the lynch on a town player because if he was scum he would know that I am not scum. Therefore scum would know that I am not lying or at the very least I am green trying to get their roleblock.
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So basically what you're saying is .. you're not scum so he's not scum because he would've known that you're not scum
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EBWOP: which brings us back to the question: How do we know you're not scum?
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On April 02 2012 22:46 FourFace wrote: So basically what you're saying is .. you're not scum so he's not scum because he would've known that you're not scum yup. and if lynching me is what is needed to win the game then so be it. I would rather just lynch the scum team though
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On April 02 2012 22:47 FourFace wrote: EBWOP: which brings us back to the question: How do we know you're not scum? This is completely up to you... You can either be awesome or stupid. You decide, its like a choose your own adventure novel
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right right .. and you're not going to think about this a little bit more, and come back with a better argument later, are you?
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Kohbee I agree with you that if you are not scum, then the people who switched their votes off of you after your last-minute claim should be considered probably town. They could have just kept their votes on you and then claimed afk after your lynch.
However we need to remember that people who were not already voting for you aren't cleared. Switching a vote to you after a blue claim would be an obvious scum tell when the claim turns out to be true. It would be much safer just to let you live and roleblock or shoot you.
So where does that get us? If you are town, then four face would be clean. However he's the only one who actually switche off of you. Hiropro and marvellosity also helped save you, so I suppose hiropro is also town, since he could have kept his vote on solohan and allowed you to die. However, marvellosity had to take an action. Therefore he could not have said he was afk for your claim and lynch. Therefore, if you claimed, were lynched, and flipped blue, marvellosity would have been the obvious next target - not worth it for him if he's mafia, when they can just roleblock you. So, if you are town then the scum would be two out of me, marvellosity, omnom, solohan, and kb. Since it's not me, then we have a group of four out of whom 2 are mafia; however, you obviously have no reason to believe I'm town, so call it 2/5.
However! This whole analysis is only valid if you are town. You could also be scum - a distinct possibility in my opinion. Next post will have that analysis. Sorry if I get ninja'd, I'm typing this on an iPhone.
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nope... just awesome or stupid.
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On April 02 2012 22:56 Kohbee wrote: nope... just awesome or stupid.
More like herp or derp
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Can we please wait for the night to develop before we get deeper into analysis here? If there is a medic or jailkeeper, they will probably know what to do by now. When we have the additional information of who did or did not get nightkilled this may well be quite a bit easier to understand.
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On April 02 2012 22:55 strongandbig wrote: Kohbee I agree with you that if you are not scum, then the people who switched their votes off of you after your last-minute claim should be considered probably town. They could have just kept their votes on you and then claimed afk after your lynch.
However we need to remember that people who were not already voting for you aren't cleared. Switching a vote to you after a blue claim would be an obvious scum tell when the claim turns out to be true. It would be much safer just to let you live and roleblock or shoot you.
So where does that get us? If you are town, then four face would be clean. However he's the only one who actually switche off of you. Hiropro and marvellosity also helped save you, so I suppose hiropro is also town, since he could have kept his vote on solohan and allowed you to die. However, marvellosity had to take an action. Therefore he could not have said he was afk for your claim and lynch. Therefore, if you claimed, were lynched, and flipped blue, marvellosity would have been the obvious next target - not worth it for him if he's mafia, when they can just roleblock you. So, if you are town then the scum would be two out of me, marvellosity, omnom, solohan, and kb. Since it's not me, then we have a group of four out of whom 2 are mafia; however, you obviously have no reason to believe I'm town, so call it 2/5.
However! This whole analysis is only valid if you are town. You could also be scum - a distinct possibility in my opinion. Next post will have that analysis. Sorry if I get ninja'd, I'm typing this on an iPhone. For not being stupid you can get lynched 2nd. unless omnomnom posts more dumb shit and jumps ahead of you in line. (very possible)
k? k.
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This post is going to be a bit shorter, since there's less analysis to do IMO. If Kohbee is scum, then we know for sure that I'm not scum and solohan isn't scum. I pushed the lynch on Kohbee all day, and solohan voted for Kohbee when no one else was except therapist, and thus revived the Kohbee lynch as a realistic possibility.
This would mean if Kohbee is scum, the other scum would have to be one out of fourface, omnom, marvel, kb, and hiropro. Not very helpful IMO.
So all in all what do we have? No one absolutely confirmed town or scum, just relying on reads.
I'll post some of my current reads later today before the night actions happen, but right now I have to go to class.
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On April 02 2012 23:07 strongandbig wrote: If Kohbee is scum, then we know for sure that I'm not scum and solohan isn't scum. I pushed the lynch on Kohbee all day
That is 100% true as I said. You&strongandbig impossible scumpair. You could both be town or either one of you could be scum, but not both. It's good that you confirm this
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On April 02 2012 23:00 KharadBanar wrote: Can we please wait for the night to develop before we get deeper into analysis here? If there is a medic or jailkeeper, they will probably know what to do by now. When we have the additional information of who did or did not get nightkilled this may well be quite a bit easier to understand.
The problem is there are so many possibilities.
1) A random townie gets killed. This could mean Kohbee is scum and they just decided to off someone. It could also mean that Kohbee is not scum, and mafia assumed that as town has a 2/3 chance of having a doc or jailer, they would just kill someone else and roleblock Kohbee.
2) Kohbee gets killed. This is clearest case as then of course Kohbee is not scum. It also PROBABLY (but not definitely) means we don't have a doc/jailkeeper as they'd likely protect Kohbee.
3) No-one gets killed. This could mean Mafia tried to hit Kohbee but he was protected. It could also mean Kohbee is mafia and mafia decided to hit no-one to make Kohbee less suspicious (that doesn't seem like a great outcome for mafia, not getting a kill).
Actually now I've listed some options, information will be gleaned one way or another. Worryingly it seems 1) is the best mafia play, because it doesn't tell us much about who is mafia at all.
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On April 02 2012 23:15 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:00 KharadBanar wrote: Can we please wait for the night to develop before we get deeper into analysis here? If there is a medic or jailkeeper, they will probably know what to do by now. When we have the additional information of who did or did not get nightkilled this may well be quite a bit easier to understand. The problem is there are so many possibilities. 1) A random townie gets killed. This could mean Kohbee is scum and they just decided to off someone. It could also mean that Kohbee is not scum, and mafia assumed that as town has a 2/3 chance of having a doc or jailer, they would just kill someone else and roleblock Kohbee. 2) Kohbee gets killed. This is clearest case as then of course Kohbee is not scum. It also PROBABLY (but not definitely) means we don't have a doc/jailkeeper as they'd likely protect Kohbee. 3) No-one gets killed. This could mean Mafia tried to hit Kohbee but he was protected. It could also mean Kohbee is mafia and mafia decided to hit no-one to make Kohbee less suspicious (that doesn't seem like a great outcome for mafia, not getting a kill). Actually now I've listed some options, information will be gleaned one way or another. Worryingly it seems 1) is the best mafia play, because it doesn't tell us much about who is mafia at all. You are correct in your thought process however it is all WIFOM.
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"WIFOM is arguably the most misapplied term in the Mafia lexicon, and for years the standard approach to has been to throw out any ambiguous evidence. This is not optimal, as WIFOM situations are generally not purely random. However, WIFOM arises precisely because someone is difficult to read, and the possibility of being wrong is inherent in making a choice.
Many times analyzing night kills is considered WIFOM, as only the killers can say with certainty why someone died. This is especially true when the kill choices were unexpected. At present, NK analysis is considered simply another possibly-reliable piece of evidence, neither useless nor authoritative. "
I could be wrong but by guess it's only WIFOM if you discuss past events.
We are addressing possible developments and once again, predicting possibilities. And once again you are not helping one bit. At least stop quoting that chunk if you plan on saying only a sentence.
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EBWOP: did I just statter? LOL
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On April 02 2012 23:30 FourFace wrote: "WIFOM is arguably the most misapplied term in the Mafia lexicon, and for years the standard approach to has been to throw out any ambiguous evidence. This is not optimal, as WIFOM situations are generally not purely random. However, WIFOM arises precisely because someone is difficult to read, and the possibility of being wrong is inherent in making a choice.
Many times analyzing night kills is considered WIFOM, as only the killers can say with certainty why someone died. This is especially true when the kill choices were unexpected. At present, NK analysis is considered simply another possibly-reliable piece of evidence, neither useless nor authoritative. "
I could be wrong but by guess it's only WIFOM if you discuss past events.
We are addressing possible developments and once again, predicting possibilities. And once again you are not helping one bit. At least stop quoting that chunk if you plan on saying only a sentence. if i don't die it says nothing about my alignment. I could either be left alone so that I can be mislynched or I am scum (to everyone else as I know this is not the case)
If I do die it points fingers directly at solohan strong, and omnomnom. Scum could do this because they are town and can get mislynches out of them. However they could also believe that you would think that, and be hiding behind the argument of "why would we kill Kohbee if it points fingers at us."
This is why night kills are WIFOM in terms of determining alignment
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EBWOP: when i say they in the 2nd paragraph i am refering to solohan, strong and omnom.
It should read more like
If I do die it points fingers directly at solohan strong, and omnomnom. Scum could do this because solo, strong and omnom are town and can get mislynches out of them. However Scum could also believe that you would think that, and then solohan, strong and omnom can hide behind the argument of "why would we kill Kohbee if it points fingers at us."
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hhahahaa good one. Confirmed town. Just kidding. Why are you not trying to go into detail as to what happened minutes prior to the lynch. I think there's more there that we can discuss, don't you?
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On April 02 2012 23:53 FourFace wrote: hhahahaa good one. Confirmed town. Just kidding. Why are you not trying to go into detail as to what happened minutes prior to the lynch. I think there's more there that we can discuss, don't you? i did dive deep into that time period. I haven't seen anything new or relevant said since
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It's because you should explain it before anyone else does. Don't worry it's not boring at all.. it's what everyone is talking about.
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On April 02 2012 23:55 FourFace wrote: It's because you should explain it before anyone else does. Don't worry it's not boring at all.. it's what everyone is talking about. I already explained what happened. Townies got me off the hook and scum tried to lynch me
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So be it. Hey everyone, leave Kohbee alone. Let's find something else to talk about. This interrogation is over. Sleep tight Kohbee
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i would love to hear thoughts from solohan and omnomnom... especially now that ONOG is over and he can read the thread and not post/vote like he hasn't read anything but a scum qt
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Interrogator: Next: marvellosity..and Mr. uhm Franky Fourfaces please have a seat.
So, marvellosity .. could you explain why you chose to vote for the deceased.. Mr. The rapist .. Thrapiss, I'm sorry Mr. Therapist. What were your leads on him?
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At the risk of being lazy, check out my filter. I posted a few times in a row on how/why I voted
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Just out of curiosity, Fourface, do you ever plan on stopping your spamming up of the thread. You have asked so many pointless and redundant questions, and while I applaud your enthusiasm, it really is making your filter and the thread hard to read and find substance in.
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On April 02 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: I think Therapist is a more likely mafia than Kohbee, just about. We're running out of time and I don't really know what to do. This could just be a desperate ploy from a Kohbee mafia as he's about to die, or he could be telling the truth. Therapist has posted quite cleverly but much less. I'm open for anyone with some strong leadership because apparently that isn't me atm :/ ##Vote: Therapist
On April 02 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: EBWOP: I still think Therapist. is townie, but I think the chance he's mafia is a bit higher right now than Kohbee.
FourFace: Yes it is a little bit hard to say it. You didn't have anything on him whatsoever
Interrogator: Please be quiet, we'll get to you in a moment. So you voted only to save someone who claimed to be cop. May I ask .. why you voted so close to the deadline?
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You may ask.
1) I did not have a clue who to vote for. 2) I was desperately trying to get my offrace Terran account promoted to diamond.
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FourFace: `chuckle
Interrogator: That's quite funny, did you come up with it just now?
FourFace: He's lying
Interrogator: what?
FourFace: He's lying. He planned it all along, think about it. Always the second to jump on a vote however senseless so he can easily retract. And then out of the blue vote for someone last minute because voting is mandatory. He now claims to have an alibi which he didn't care to mention before.
Interrogator: that's enough marvellosity are you aware that scum which is about to get lynched would say anything to save himself?
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Although I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself to you, dearest, if you're interested the US account I play on is here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3223088/1/JrKlondike/
And if you desperately, desperately want I can provide replays, but I fear that may be going a little far.
As with regards to my voting, my vote on Solohan was eminently sensible imo and you were pissing me off mightily at the time.
As for the final, slightly more sensible question: again, if you look at my filter you will see my misgivings and uncertainties about my vote.
Anyway, can we move on to something a little more... productive?
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Let's start poking people!
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EBWOP:
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Oh you want me to start. I chooooose hmm the guy with the fucking iphone
On April 02 2012 22:55 strongandbig wrote: Kohbee I agree with you that if you are not scum, then the people who switched their votes off of you after your last-minute claim should be considered probably town. They could have just kept their votes on you and then claimed afk after your lynch.
However we need to remember that people who were not already voting for you aren't cleared. Switching a vote to you after a blue claim would be an obvious scum tell when the claim turns out to be true. It would be much safer just to let you live and roleblock or shoot you.
So where does that get us? If you are town, then four face would be clean. However he's the only one who actually switche off of you. Hiropro and marvellosity also helped save you, so I suppose hiropro is also town, since he could have kept his vote on solohan and allowed you to die. However, marvellosity had to take an action. Therefore he could not have said he was afk for your claim and lynch. Therefore, if you claimed, were lynched, and flipped blue, marvellosity would have been the obvious next target - not worth it for him if he's mafia, when they can just roleblock you. So, if you are town then the scum would be two out of me, marvellosity, omnom, solohan, and kb. Since it's not me, then we have a group of four out of whom 2 are mafia; however, you obviously have no reason to believe I'm town, so call it 2/5.
However! This whole analysis is only valid if you are town. You could also be scum - a distinct possibility in my opinion. Next post will have that analysis. Sorry if I get ninja'd, I'm typing this on an iPhone.
That's so terrible one of my personalities got a stroke halfway through and another split into 3 more. Now I have 5
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I find it amusing that Kohbee is sitting here telling the entire thread who is scum, based off of who voted to lynch him. I would be more worried about some of the last-minute switches than I would about the people who thought you were scum from the start. A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
It makes even more sense if you think the roleclaim is false and that Kohbee is actually scum. If he is indeed scum, I'm willing to bet that his scum buddy switched vote at the last minute when he realized that the lynch vote was going to take Kohbee out first day. On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie. When that failed, he roleclaimed and bandwagoned a townie right at the end of the day. On top of that, the townie he lynched was one of the most vocal anti-Kohbee players in the thread short of FourFace. This seems like too big of a string of coincidences for me, which is why my vote stayed where it was, and which is why we ended up lynching a fellow townie instead of the real scum.
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On April 03 2012 01:33 Solohan50 wrote: I find it amusing that Kohbee is sitting here telling the entire thread who is scum, based off of who voted to lynch him. I would be more worried about some of the last-minute switches than I would about the people who thought you were scum from the start. A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
It makes even more sense if you think the roleclaim is false and that Kohbee is actually scum. If he is indeed scum, I'm willing to bet that his scum buddy switched vote at the last minute when he realized that the lynch vote was going to take Kohbee out first day. On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie. When that failed, he roleclaimed and bandwagoned a townie right at the end of the day. On top of that, the townie he lynched was one of the most vocal anti-Kohbee players in the thread short of FourFace. This seems like too big of a string of coincidences for me, which is why my vote stayed where it was, and which is why we ended up lynching a fellow townie instead of the real scum. So who was it that I was trying to lynch the whole day?
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@strongandbig .. I'm sorry.
@Solohan50 So where do we go from here?
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EBWOP: besides ignoring Kohbee and his hidious quotes only to bust out a one liner question
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EBWOP: I'd like to interrogate everyone since I have some spare time today.
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i want my question answered. and when going through filters to have quoted the post i am responding to makes it easier to read
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On April 03 2012 01:45 Kohbee wrote: i want my question answered. and when going through filters to have quoted the post i am responding to makes it easier to read
Why do you make people think for you? Why can't you just say HiroPro is not a confirmed townie.. is it really that hard. It's so frustrating with you that I just want to win this game right away. I would like to wait for a time when everyone is active so we can discuss if we should all claim along with actions and everything and then lynch Kohbee. Think about the pros and cons and don't let mafia arguments derail what could be an imba maneuver.
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On April 03 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: @strongandbig .. I'm sorry.
@Solohan50 So where do we go from here?
Did I go too far down the wifom rabbit hole? My main point was to answer kohbee's claim that we could go from the vote on him to such a small list of potential scum, and that it's a bit more complicated than he made it out to be.
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On April 03 2012 02:17 FourFace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:45 Kohbee wrote: i want my question answered. and when going through filters to have quoted the post i am responding to makes it easier to read Why do you make people think for you? Why can't you just say HiroPro is not a confirmed townie.. is it really that hard. It's so frustrating with you that I just want to win this game right away. I would like to wait for a time when everyone is active so we can discuss if we should all claim along with actions and everything and then lynch Kohbee. Think about the pros and cons and don't let mafia arguments derail what could be an imba maneuver. If you are town this is beyond stupid. all you will do is out a doc or jailor if there is one. Stop throwing out your easy-win plans.
I want to know who solohan is refering to when he says
On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie.
Why can't he just answer?
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On April 03 2012 02:23 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 02:17 FourFace wrote:On April 03 2012 01:45 Kohbee wrote: i want my question answered. and when going through filters to have quoted the post i am responding to makes it easier to read Why do you make people think for you? Why can't you just say HiroPro is not a confirmed townie.. is it really that hard. It's so frustrating with you that I just want to win this game right away. I would like to wait for a time when everyone is active so we can discuss if we should all claim along with actions and everything and then lynch Kohbee. Think about the pros and cons and don't let mafia arguments derail what could be an imba maneuver. If you are town this is beyond stupid. all you will do is out a doc or jailor if there is one. Stop throwing out your easy-win plans.
Also mafia can just counter-claim and then we're even more confused than before
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I think it was pretty apparent by my post who I was referring to, but I'll reiterate it just for you, Kohbee. You were pushing for Therapist to get lynched, and you got it by bandwagoning him with your roleclaim.
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On April 03 2012 02:39 Solohan50 wrote: I think it was pretty apparent by my post who I was referring to, but I'll reiterate it just for you, Kohbee. You were pushing for Therapist to get lynched, and you got it by bandwagoning him with your roleclaim. I actually just called him scum and told him I didn't want to talk to him because I thought as much. I would like you to notice that I was open to many different lynch options including yourself.
I don't know why you are choosing to lie to justify your vote. It seems rather... scummy.
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On April 03 2012 02:39 Solohan50 wrote: I think it was pretty apparent by my post who I was referring to, but I'll reiterate it just for you, Kohbee. You were pushing for Therapist to get lynched, and you got it by bandwagoning him with your roleclaim. Btw the tone of this post screams scum.
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Okay guys I'm finally up and awake.
I have Grubby talking on stream about my work hours for an alibi people that are refusing to believe that I actually wasn't doing the ONOG stuff (which I said I wouldn't be very active until today BEFORE roles were handed to remind you of that). Starting at the beginning of the thread in an in depth read and taking notes now
Sorry for the afkness, apparently running, producing, admining and caster wrangling a tournament by yourself actually take about all your time.
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On April 03 2012 03:42 omnomMuffins wrote:Okay guys I'm finally up and awake. I have Grubby talking on stream about my work hours for an alibi people that are refusing to believe that I actually wasn't doing the ONOG stuff (which I said I wouldn't be very active until today BEFORE roles were handed to remind you of that). Starting at the beginning of the thread in an in depth read and taking notes now Sorry for the afkness, apparently running, producing, admining and caster wrangling a tournament by yourself actually take about all your time. what is the point of this. We know. every post is about you eventually posting... just do it.
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On April 03 2012 02:20 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: @strongandbig .. I'm sorry.
@Solohan50 So where do we go from here? Did I go too far down the wifom rabbit hole? My main point was to answer kohbee's claim that we could go from the vote on him to such a small list of potential scum, and that it's a bit more complicated than he made it out to be.
No I'm actually saying it makes sense.. this part particularly
On April 03 2012 01:33 Solohan50 wrote: A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
It makes even more sense if you think the roleclaim is false and that Kohbee is actually scum. If he is indeed scum, I'm willing to bet that his scum buddy switched vote at the last minute when he realized that the lynch vote was going to take Kohbee out first day. On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie.
But the very last sentence is something Kohbee doesn't understand. I've explained it to him but he's too .. uhmm.. idn occupied with his emotions to understand it. He was actually voting for HiroPro the whole day not Therapist, but if in your eyes HiroPro is a confirmed townie or something it makes sense from your point of view but not from his .. so he should ask if HiroPro is confirmed townie in your opinion. But he's just like a caveman demanding you to explain something that doesn't exist the way he understood it.
Anyway. it's not wifom because it has an end, an ultimate argument but you kind of dropped it with that last sentence I quoted. And what does Kohbee do .. he dances around it all day without going in to your main consideration. I got a whole page with additional reasons all pointing out how idiotic his behaviour is but in the end.. there is no purpose to riding around on him all night. We should pick up on it on day2, something tells me he'll still be alive and one of us will be dead and it won't say anything about if Kohbee is scum or town. I just hate to think some scumbag is just lurking around all day and winning this by letting us cut eachother's throats.
I'd cut marv's throat though.. why wouldn't he let me interrogate him further?
On April 03 2012 01:14 marvellosity wrote: Anyway, can we move on to something a little more... productive?
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On April 03 2012 01:18 marvellosity wrote: Let's start poking people!
Could someone please put this guy in jail or something because he's superbad at this game if he's town and superscum if he's scum. I'm literally enumerating his scumness and he tells me to stop it beacuse he wants to poke people. Hasn't said anything since. Except of course:
On April 03 2012 02:20 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 01:40 FourFace wrote: @strongandbig .. I'm sorry.
@Solohan50 So where do we go from here? Did I go too far down the wifom rabbit hole? My main point was to answer kohbee's claim that we could go from the vote on him to such a small list of potential scum, and that it's a bit more complicated than he made it out to be.
No I'm actually saying it makes sense.. this part particularly
On April 03 2012 01:33 Solohan50 wrote: A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
It makes even more sense if you think the roleclaim is false and that Kohbee is actually scum. If he is indeed scum, I'm willing to bet that his scum buddy switched vote at the last minute when he realized that the lynch vote was going to take Kohbee out first day. On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie.
But the very last sentence is something Kohbee doesn't understand. I've explained it to him but he's too .. uhmm.. idn occupied with his emotions to understand it. He was actually voting for HiroPro the whole day not Therapist, but if in your eyes HiroPro is a confirmed townie or something it makes sense from your point of view but not from his .. so he should ask if HiroPro is confirmed townie in your opinion. But he's just like a caveman demanding you to explain something that doesn't exist the way he understood it.
Anyway. it's not wifom because it has an end, an ultimate argument but you kind of dropped it with that last sentence I quoted. And what does Kohbee do .. he dances around it all day without going in to your main consideration. I got a whole page with additional reasons all pointing out how idiotic his behaviour is but in the end.. there is no purpose to riding around on him all night. We should pick up on it on day2, something tells me he'll still be alive and one of us will be dead and it won't say anything about if Kohbee is scum or town. I just hate to think some scumbag is just lurking around all day and winning this by letting us cut eachother's throats.
I'd cut marv's throat though.. why wouldn't he let me interrogate him further?
On April 03 2012 01:14 marvellosity wrote: Anyway, can we move on to something a little more... productive?
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On April 03 2012 01:18 marvellosity wrote: Let's start poking people!
Could someone please put this guy in jail or something because he's superbad at this game if he's town and superscum if he's scum. I'm literally enumerating his scumness and he tells me to stop it beacuse he wants to poke people. Hasn't said anything since
Except of course: [/QUOTE]
Also mafia can just counter-claim and then we're even more confused than before [/QUOTE]
which means he is active but can't figure out how to do something more productive than me pointing out a ton of scumness on my suspects and watching their reaction. Still doesn't like me doing it though. You figure it out.
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Lol .. I repeated that whole part. That is pretty weird
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To expand on that slightly, your silly little 'interrogation' which I was ok to play along with for a while, was in fact code for "ask questions where the answers can be entirely found by looking at marv's filter."
Your plan with everyone claiming roles is literally the worst plan ever invented in TL Mafia.
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there is a preview button. can you repost that in a spoiler the correct way.
Also,
On April 03 2012 02:39 Solohan50 wrote: I think it was pretty apparent by my post who I was referring to, but I'll reiterate it just for you, Kohbee. You were pushing for Therapist to get lynched, and you got it by bandwagoning him with your roleclaim.
makes everything you just said about me wrong
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On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair.
I agree with this. Mafia partners would not vote for each other on day 1 in a close vote.
On April 02 2012 23:00 KharadBanar wrote: Can we please wait for the night to develop before we get deeper into analysis here? If there is a medic or jailkeeper, they will probably know what to do by now. When we have the additional information of who did or did not get nightkilled this may well be quite a bit easier to understand.
Town has to talk. It is the only way we can find scum.
Fourface - I don't like the mass claim idea. Scum can find out jailer/doctor, while town gains absolutely nothing, especially considering that we are not even sure of what roles exist.
Marvelosity, you said that you had no idea who to vote for. I don't believe that at all. If you didn't know, there was no way you would have switched votes right when it mattered the most. What are your reads?
Omnomnom is scummy as hell, but I think everyone knows that. And nothing that Kohbee and solohan have said today has made any sense. Kohbee ignores what other people say, while it doesn't look like solohan represented anything that happened the first day correctly. Both of them are possible scum (obviously only one of them can be scum for the reason that FourFace posted).
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FourFace made a post saying that you should stop making arguments based on the hypothetical that you are not mafia. And what did you do..... Your very next post was about how when you get lynched and flip blue, solohan and strong should be lynched.
That kind of post isn't productive. It doesn't get us any closer to figuring out whether or not you are scum.
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On April 03 2012 05:43 HiroPro wrote: Marvelosity, you said that you had no idea who to vote for. I don't believe that at all. If you didn't know, there was no way you would have switched votes right when it mattered the most. What are your reads?
My vote history was Solohan (lurker) -> Fourface (protest) -> no-one -> Therapist
So it wasn't the case of a last minute switch, it was a case that I had to choose between two options to lynch at the time. I also said at the time that I thought therapist was slightly townie, but he had slightly more of a chance of being mafia, which I now believe to be probably not true; at least from my perspective Kohbee claiming blue could have been a desperate scum claim (I appreciated this); what I did not appreciate until a little later was that claiming blue as the blue was not a good idea anyway.
I don't like omnom's posting, if he spent half as much time making a real post as he has apologising for not doing so, we might have actually got SOMETHING from him by now.
Maybe depending on the night's actions, I think there is possibly a case against kohbee. I don't think kohbee/therapist really had any case on each other, it started so early based on so little. Therapist was at least consistent and we know he didn't have adverse motives, but he suffered from a lack of posting (that is why I chose to vote therapist at the time).
Fourface is either the ballsiest mafia ever but the much more likely read is that he's town. I think he has been too spammy (put-downs, pointless questions) and also his blue claim plan is just a terrible town play... but I don't think mafia could be as ballsy as to suggest it, so town. He's also going after me quite a bit which ironically makes him more town in my eyes - if he were mafia, I can't say he should be seeing me as a threat, as my play hasn't been great so far, so he'd have no reason to target me.
There has been some confusing posting in the Night, but I'm not inclined to heavily sift through filters until we know the result of the Night actions.
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thinking otherwise is stupid. I know for fact that I am blue. Why would I post like there was even an option of me being scum
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EBWOP: *therapist was probably townie
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Before you claimed cop, you posted reads based on what people posted and acted like.
Now? Everything's "Hey guys, I'm cop, therefore these individuals are suspicious."
Which of these behaviors do you think helps town more?
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Marvel i think you saying that you thought marvel was a townie is null (could lean scummy) behavior. Scum know who town is... do you want credit for lynching a townie that you knew was a townie?
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On April 03 2012 06:10 HiroPro wrote: Before you claimed cop, you posted reads based on what people posted and acted like.
Now? Everything's "Hey guys, I'm cop, therefore these individuals are suspicious."
Which of these behaviors do you think helps town more? my reads are still based off actions. they wanted to lynch a cop.
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On April 03 2012 06:12 Kohbee wrote: they wanted to lynch a cop.
The only people who know whether or not this is true are yourself and mafia.
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exactly. thats why they would stay on me. or do the omnom thing and have a completely baseless vote that doesn't do shit.
ps. omnom seems scared to actually post anything game related
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Kohbee shut your mouth please. You and FourFace have made it so my analysis took forever so please just shut up for a minute and stop being so accusatory and aggresive. Even if you are a cop, first day you had no solid read information because we had no night, and now you are claiming role blockage. That still makes you useless, like any other town so please get off your pedestal. Of course I'm not going to post anything game related when I haven't had time to sit down and study it, you guys have had the past few days to read over and digest everything, I'm just getting caught up and want to be sure of myself before I post anything so I don't go waving out those accusations like you so greatly enjoy to do.
First of all, if you want to know how busy I was this weekend and how I wasnt able to post, I can ask Sheth or Grubby to come post in here for a real life alibi if mod allows it. Secondly gah you guys are so freaking annoying.
Here is what I think.
Kohbee is false claiming cop, and the real cop is yet to come out. Either that or he is an Albert and is just really so obnoxious that he thinks that people will follow him in his choices, just because he is the cop... even though he has no actual information on anyone.
He completely fails at reading comprehension and loves throwing things around at people. His accusation of HiroPro was totally unjustified and was a complete random act based on two lines of posting right after the game started. And for you to repeatedly say I don't give a shit abotu this thread when the whole reason I came in to keep you guys updated on where I was over tournament weekend was a courtesy, that is about as real life scum as it can get. So suck it.
Moving onto my next read, which was on therapist, I would look to see who switched their votes to him at the end for scum hiding, which strangely bring us back to HiroPro and Marvelosity.
Next on this list of my read is that I truly believe that Kharad is town, the reads I get off of him are very consistent, the only thing that worries me from him unduly is the comment about "back into character" though if you play D&D or other RPGs it is a very common thing to say after a tangent.
HiroPro has the same reading comprehension issues that Kohbee has, again yelling at me for being scum for not posting, when I posted the reason why I wasn't posting LONG before roles were given out. I probably should have passed on this game, but I wanted to the Gmarsh at IPL that I actually followed through on what he asked me to do. So sorry about that.Though I have enjoyed his recent posts.
And now onto my favoritest person here and why I don't like the reads I get off of him, even if he is town. FourFace! When someone is so incredibly abrasive that they start up arguments on the drop of a hat, this is a bad thing for town, EVEN IF he is town. He can be protown in his words, but still with his tone and completely flooding the thread so it is hard to tell, actually be a detriment to town because it makes it much harder to pay attention to anyone else. If this was IRL mafia I would have sit down on him at this point to make him shut up. He seems to be feeding Kohbee's newer attitude as well, if you notice that Kohbee was much more polite and civil at the start of the thread, but consistently falls down to FourFace's wonderful level at this point. Let me rattle off my favorite moments with FourFace: -voting for himself, repeatedly, and then voting for himself as the third person, saying it shows he is mafia. -when asked what role he would prefer "Roleblocker, so I can roleblock the cop" current relevent note, our "cop" is currently roleblocked" -Saying everyone should share reactions, then announcing that we were all cut off from his reads. -After Kohbee came out as "cop" he said he was "going to let you die" because he couldn't figure it out. He later changed his vote to someone that didn't matter in the end because no one else was voting for them, but the point still stands that he said he would let the supposed cop die jsut because. -Also I deeply enjoyed the lack of comprehension from him again as I was yelled at for not reading the post before I went to bed after working for 20 hours straight. It was probably my favorite moment ever.
So even though I originally voted on FourFace off of impulse because of the way he was acting and being so disrespectful (so many homophobic remarks scattered through just his post history in this thread his favorite one being about thumbs up bums) which, in and of itself is bad to have a townie who is so confrontational, argumentative and disrespectful as it distracts from the mafia, his post history does seem to show that he is slightly less than clean.
As to the others, Marvelosity is completely new to mafia as he has noted several times, so I would assume that a lot of his reactions are off of being new.
People I have no reads of note on so far - solohan50 and strongandbig
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I hope that satisfies you all for actually contributing, it took me a while to be able to catch up, make assessments and then write it.
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Also, because I posted that now and instead of in 2 hours, it puts me in a very dangerous situations
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hey omnom
ps. that huge post was vague, gave next to no reads on anyone, and basically said "i think fourface is town but I would still lynch him"
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did you read the end of it? mainly this part:
So even though I originally voted on FourFace off of impulse because of the way he was acting and being so disrespectful (so many homophobic remarks scattered through just his post history in this thread his favorite one being about thumbs up bums) which, in and of itself is bad to have a townie who is so confrontational, argumentative and disrespectful as it distracts from the mafia, his post history does seem to show that he is slightly less than clean.
I don't think he is clean. And I don't think you are either.
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To clarify, the two of you clog up the thread so much that it is near impossible to just jump in and get what is going on WITHOUT filtering the two of you out.
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And now I am just filling in lines so I don't need to see that gif while I am waiting.
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Now it shouldn't show on my screen.
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cool so you think me and fourface might be scum
and kb is town
and hiro is kinda scummy but not really anymore
and marvel is new
and you cant read solo and strong.
You are like textbook scum not willing to take a stance on anything outside the obvious.
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I love you you are adorable.
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First you say, YOU SAY NOTHING SCUM!
Now you get all my reads and you say EVERYONE HAS SAID THAT ALREADY SCUM!
Of course they have, I was 2 days late to the game. Me quoting everything that was said is easily accessible, but no one else seems to have taken the time to compile it.
Also, on an unrelated note, is the alligator who ate a person dead yet? It has the taste for human blood 0.0
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On April 03 2012 08:31 omnomMuffins wrote: First you say, YOU SAY NOTHING SCUM!
Now you get all my reads and you say EVERYONE HAS SAID THAT ALREADY SCUM!
Of course they have, I was 2 days late to the game. Me quoting everything that was said is easily accessible, but no one else seems to have taken the time to compile it.
Also, on an unrelated note, is the alligator who ate a person dead yet? It has the taste for human blood 0.0
READING COMPREHENSION FAIL
I am calling you scum because you refuse to take a stance almost anywhere.
I think your post is bad because it appears you offer nothing new which means you are afraid to voice your own opinions.
There is a different between bad and scum.
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So because my opinions that I just spent hours going through say that I think you and FourFace are scum, which by the way, no one else has said in earnest, and that I don't think other people are scum, I have nothing new?
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so suck it
slightly less than clean
this is how you call people scum?
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Less than clean means scum. The part where I call you scum is here:
Even if you are a cop, first day you had no solid read information because we had no night, and now you are claiming role blockage.
I am not posting things outright because as we have all noted, the night isn't done yet, so I didn't want to be a huge target for calling you guys out. Too late for that now. If I had posted it a few hours later, I would have just said it blatantly, but since you kept calling me out for posting too late and blah blah blah, I posted it in a way that people can read through the lines.
Also notice how I always put cop in quotes.
And for a sane cop, you are rather not fitting the role very well.
More like paranoid cop, or insane cop. Or police brutality cop (is that a role? I don't know, because this is my first game).
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To clafiry, it is my first game of forum mafia, I have previously only played IRL, which means you have Shack, red cop, red medic, black medic, and mafia and town. None of these really interesting roles.
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if i die please lynch solohan, omnom and strong in that order.
kthx
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My apologies, the nightpost will be delayed shortly, I should have it up in 10-15 minutes. I would like you all to refrain from posting until that.
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Day 2
It was a sad night for the employees of the Liquidia Aquatic Zoo. They had lost one of their dear friends, and were still as clueless about who could be the ones planning on hijacking the animals and selling them for money. What they did not know however, was that fate still had it's surprises planned for the poor group before sunrise.
FourFace decided to go for a walk, he needed some time for himself after losing a dear friend. Walking around the pools, he finally decided to try and cheer himself up. He walked next to the pool with sharks. After all, taking care of them for years had formed a sort of bond between them, no matter how beastly creatures they were.
Suddenly, FourFace was grabbed from behind and could feel something sharp to his back. "I see you came to say hello to your friends. Well, wouldn't you like to join them? .... For all eternity!" He felt a sharp pain in his throat as it was slit open, and pushed towards the water. His last screams didn't last long after the sharks had sensed the blood and attacked him.
Moments later, the others arrived to the scene wondering what had happened. Only to get even more shocked to see FourFace being devoured by the very creatures he had taken care of.
FourFace, the Townie was eaten alive.
Day 2 will end in 47 hours and 50 minutes, on Thursday, Apr 05 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
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...does the Mafia want us to actually have a chance in this game?
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no results. I was roleblocked
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Why do you hate me so much seriously?
I just post that I don't believe you are cop, I post all my findings, and while not all of them are original, you just go after me?
I'm sorry I suck as an observer all right?
Anywho, going off of my post that I made, I will happily go with my gut.
##vote kohbee
I do not believe you are the real cop.
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Actually I think the real reason you don't like me is because I took your power away by pointing out that you actually have none when you announced you were role blocked.
So you are as blind as the rest of us, and need to act like you have power. Or you are mafia.
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Wow. Fourface? I'm surprised. We need to stop bickering now and try to get everyone in town contributing.
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What we all need to realize right now is that with the "cop" roleblocked, we will not be able to count on any outside help.
The only people who know anything are the mafia. The rest is pure speculation.
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On April 03 2012 09:35 omnomMuffins wrote: What we all need to realize right now is that with the "cop" roleblocked, we will not be able to count on any outside help.
The only people who know anything are the mafia. The rest is pure speculation.
Unfortunately we don't get anywhere without speculation and discussion. If Kohbee is lying and he's the scum, we still have a cop out there somewhere. Gonna have to take a look through the thread and his filter and try to make a read on him.
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EBWOP: Unfortunately what I just posted is total nonsense. If Kohbee is lying, there doesn't necessarily have to be a cop in the game at all. Bum.
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I'm not saying that we don't have discussion.
I am saying if someone says more than "I think" or "I believe" it is best to be wary. No one can know right now other than the cop, and the mafia.
I don't believe Kohbee is cop, whether he is playing an Albert, or if he is playing fake cop mafia, I am not sure, but I hope for our sakes he isn't actually cop and the real one actually got a read on someone tonight.
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EBWOP: Wait, we don't have the confirmed set? I thought it was 2 mafia, one godfather, the other role blocker, and a cop and a medic?
Time to read the OP more closely.
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Marvel and omnom: It's possible that a cop doesn't even exist in this setup.
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Well crap, how smart would it be to claim cop in a game without a cop?
That would be freaking brilliant!
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The Eternal Flame Wars, Chapter 2: Kohbee vs omnomMuffins
Seriously: Just a few minutes after the passing away of FourFace, active participator in the greatest flame war to date, you two start a new one-on-one where you both accuse each other of being scum and no real information is gained in any way because this is something town and scum would do equally as likely in this case. I may be an obvious newbie to this game, but even I know a fruitless discussion if I see one, and this seems to be Exhibit A right here. This hurts me especially coming from Kohbee whom, before his blue claim, I viewed as a really intelligent player who got himself in a mess because he wanted to start Day 1 discussion and made the mistake of saying "I'm not talking to scum". Also I understand now why the newbie games have the reputation of being cursed with scum winning every game after the first one: These games get played by people who haven't yet properly learned how to react to an accusation by another player in a forum (I include myself in that list). The reason this is important is that the ensuing discussions take pages and pages of thread and bury actual signal (reads and analysis) under tons of noise (I understand that this is also a "noise" post, but it at least attempts to lower the overall noise level going into the futire.
After that reminder about basic forum etiquette that I deemed necessary at this point, I want to restate that I have null reads on both the participants in this verbal battle, seeing as their arguments are based around - omnomMuffins "lurking" where in reality he has real evidence about him being in a tournament at the time and
- Kohbee not realising this and calling omnomMuffins out on it.
"Edit" before actually posting: Naturally, while I was occupied writing this up, a whole lot of posts has occurred where people have gotten more civilised altogether, making my wall of text less important. I will however still put this out there as a reminder for everyone to refer to if such a discussion starts up again (not very unlikely in my eyes). Also, response to a post from this timespan that seemed important to me:
On April 03 2012 09:48 omnomMuffins wrote: Well crap, how smart would it be to claim cop in a game without a cop?
That would be freaking brilliant! Keep in mind that a non-cop doesn't know whether a cop exists in the actual setup, so it's a 50-50 chance for him not to rightfully get counterclaimed. (Still worth doing if the alternative is getting lynched, but not as brilliant as when you know there's no cop in the game.)
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Indeed to everything KB. But do you actually have any reads on anyone?
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I don't mean to flame him, he just kept poking at me over and over. I didn't start the war, I just was extremely under attack and when I asked for more than 3 hours to read lots of days of posts that you guys have had the ability to go through over the course of the last few days.
His reaction with the umadbro post was just very silly and immature, not something that someone that is trying to lead should be doing.
That helped solidify my thoughts that he is not actually cop, though as stated, no one actually knows if there is a cop.
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Personally, I'm just waiting for FourForce's death post now.
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I admit that I have been angering myself too much about the state of this thread to actually come up with any reads. Add to this the fact that it's 3 AM for me right now and I'm really tired, and I'll probably need another half of an ingame day to come up with anything.
I have however noticed that Solohan50 has continued to write very little since he was called out on lurking once and defending himself against it. The things he did write in that period consistently involve cases on Kohbee and nothing else. If one were to jump to conclusions, one could say that Solohan50 saw Kohbee's claim knowing he's not scum and wanted the lynch to stay on the blue target. On the other hand, it doesn't make as much sense for Solohan50 to have as strong a suspicion of Kohbee as it shows up in his filter.
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On April 03 2012 10:20 KharadBanar wrote: I admit that I have been angering myself too much about the state of this thread to actually come up with any reads.
You and me both, it was near impossible to find anything with the little tiff that was going on the past few days.
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Okay, it is midnight so I"m going to bed, so accusing me of being quiet just because I'm asleep.
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Goddamn sharks. It just goes to show one shouldn't trust a reptile or a fish not to eat you once you're dripping some blood. gg gl hf
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Okay let's get this going again. I have a few thoughts.
1. Fourface was probably the smartest kill by scum. Despite being abrasive and annoying, he was also our only 100% confirmed townie. Let me explain - remember when I made my two posts about if Kohbee is or isn't really the cop? In the first one, I said that fourface was town if Kohbee is town, because if he was scum he could have let the claimed cop get lynched with basically no suspicion, just by claiming to have been afk between the claim and the resolution of the vote. IMO that was too good of a chance for scum to pass up- however only fourface and hiro actually had that chance. The thing is, I actually took out a couple of sentences from my next post on what it means if Kohbee is scum. If Kohbee is scum, then fourface would also have had to be town, since it was largely due to fourface changing his vote that Kohbee was so close to being lynched. Personally, I thought Kohbee was scum, but I was pressed to take my vote off him until fourface put his vote on Kohbee. I took that part out of my post because I was hoping mafia wouldn't realize that fourface was the only 100% confirmed innocent, and therefore their top lynch target. I guess they are smarter than I hoped - or else they were just as annoyed by fourface as everyone else...
Gonna post this now, then start writing up some reads.
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Now for some reads.
First up, kohbee.
I stand by my read on Kohbee from day 1. His random vote on hiro was completely unjustified - hiro had done nothing scummy. Now as I said then, that could either e a town action or a scum action. For town, then it's trying to spark discussion by shocking us into action. However, it could also be a scum action - hoping that a noob town will bandwagon, leading to a mislynch; or an attempt by scum to distance themselves from each other. It would be a particularly good scum action, since there's a town explanation for it as well as a scum explanation, but the potential to causes mislynch in such a small game is a big advantage for scum. So, just from that action we don't know whether Kohbee is scum or town.
However! Two things about Kohbee's actions yesterday make it unlikely that he's town. First his response to therapist - if he was really trying to spark discussion then it makes no sense to respond simply "I don't talk to scum" to someone who pushes you. That reeks of someone hoping to get town to bandwagon, rather than someone who wants us all to talk and get information out there. Second, he claimed to be the cop. In my opinion it makes no sense for the cop to be the person who jumps out with a random early vote. The potential for backfiring is obvious: it could draw attention from town, if they follow my initial analysis that the random vote could be either scummy or town, and it could draw heat from mafia if you start to look like a town leader, and get you shot. Pulling all that risk onto yourself as blue on day 1 makes no sense for town.
Kohbee is scum.
Reads on other players will come later, after my conference call - maybe at lunch time.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I like you strongandbig, thanks for starting this up again. If you're mafia, you're doing a sterling job because at the moment you're my most confirmed townie. If you're interested, the reason for this is this post:
"On April 03 2012 22:52 strongandbig wrote: Could someone give me the case against therapist? So far it seems to me like the case is that he went after Kohbee for going after hiropro, which makes him suspicious because hiropro might be his mafia teammate. I can see that being a legitimate argument, but I'm not persuaded by it; as I said above, the scum explanation for kohbee's early vote is just as strong as the town explanation in my opinion, and I could also just be the fact that therapist jumped to that conclusion.
As therapist flipped townie, I couldn't see why you would cast doubt on his vote when it was a convenient bandwagon.
At the moment, I have two possible scum reads, one expected, one perhaps not - but I'd like to start with Kohbee, the expected.
Some of his opening flippant comments. To Therapist: "you were my 2nd scum team member. Thanks for confirming to me." "I don't talk to scum" I find his whole obsession with therapist rather odd. He seemed quite convinced early on for no reason. He also lashed out at strongandbig because he voted for him (so my notes are telling me, hope I'm right).
The blue claim was also just... ugh. Bad town play, or scum play. I also really don't like the following
On April 02 2012 05:53 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:51 marvellosity wrote:
Who do you have good town reads on and why?
There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline. Why do you want to know this?
Provide a kill list to scum? Why does scum need Kohbee's town reads for a kill list?! They know who all the townies are. I really really find this answer scummy.
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On April 03 2012 23:17 strongandbig wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Now for some reads.
First up, kohbee.
I stand by my read on Kohbee from day 1. His random vote on hiro was completely unjustified - hiro had done nothing scummy. Now as I said then, that could either e a town action or a scum action. For town, then it's trying to spark discussion by shocking us into action. However, it could also be a scum action - hoping that a noob town will bandwagon, leading to a mislynch; or an attempt by scum to distance themselves from each other. It would be a particularly good scum action, since there's a town explanation for it as well as a scum explanation, but the potential to causes mislynch in such a small game is a big advantage for scum. So, just from that action we don't know whether Kohbee is scum or town.
However! Two things about Kohbee's actions yesterday make it unlikely that he's town. First his response to therapist - if he was really trying to spark discussion then it makes no sense to respond simply "I don't talk to scum" to someone who pushes you. That reeks of someone hoping to get town to bandwagon, rather than someone who wants us all to talk and get information out there. Second, he claimed to be the cop. In my opinion it makes no sense for the cop to be the person who jumps out with a random early vote. The potential for backfiring is obvious: it could draw attention from town, if they follow my initial analysis that the random vote could be either scummy or town, and it could draw heat from mafia if you start to look like a town leader, and get you shot. Pulling all that risk onto yourself as blue on day 1 makes no sense for town.
Kohbee is scum.
Reads on other players will come later, after my conference call - maybe at lunch time.
First of all my vote on Hiropro was completely justified. His beginning trolling seemed much more calculated and nervous than everyone else posting at the time. This means he either a. Did not want to post (scum) or b. Didn't know how/what to post (scum or newbie town could be doing this).
I wanted to focus on hiropro. I wanted his reaction, which is why i voted him, not everyone elses. My idea was that because he seemed so nervous if he was scum he would have reacted much differently than he actually did. You can call this tunneling but I believe I had more than ample time to change my read if need be. Therapist came through like a truck soft defending Hiropro before he even had a chance to respond to my accusation. I was focused on Hiropro, so I disregarded Therapist at the time.
When Hiropro finally responded (which he did in a way that screamed idc about a vote being on me, which is super townie) I realized that my initial read was probably wrong and that Hiropro was probably town. By this point I had a bunch of dumbass votes on me for no reason other than fear that I was too aggressive.
Also, to Strong's second point about the way I have played as cop I have already answered this earlier in the thread. + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 20:34 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:17 strongandbig wrote:On April 02 2012 12:05 Kohbee wrote:mafia has a roleblocker. I am basically a vanilla townie from now on. also, can you tell me why you said I don't know why a blue would have acted the way he did all day, seems like a blue wouldn't have gone for a random starter lynch. If kohbee isn't scum then that was a really dumb action. Because someone with a helpful role for the town wouldn't want to jump right out and bring the heat on themselves before they could use their power to help the town. At least, that's what I think. If we as a town are depending on our blues then we already lost. While it can be extremely helpful to confirm accusations and clear mislynches, our play in the thread not relating to blues is what will make or break town. There never should have been any heat on me as I have done nothing wrong. It is the fault of everyone voting for me that I had to blue claim. If you are town you should have seen me as someone willing to put the spotlight on themselves, explain what they are doing/did, and actually trying to scum hunt in a time there was none. You really believe I am scum because I am not playing cop the same way you would. I don't see being a blue to be as powerful as you seem to think it is. You keep acting like the cop role is our only saving grace, I just think of it as an aid to town.
On April 03 2012 23:24 marvellosity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +At the moment, I have two possible scum reads, one expected, one perhaps not - but I'd like to start with Kohbee, the expected. Some of his opening flippant comments. To Therapist: "you were my 2nd scum team member. Thanks for confirming to me." "I don't talk to scum" I find his whole obsession with therapist rather odd. He seemed quite convinced early on for no reason. He also lashed out at strongandbig because he voted for him (so my notes are telling me, hope I'm right). The blue claim was also just... ugh. Bad town play, or scum play. I also really don't like the following On April 02 2012 05:53 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:51 marvellosity wrote:
Who do you have good town reads on and why?
There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline. Why do you want to know this? Provide a kill list to scum? Why does scum need Kohbee's town reads for a kill list?! They know who all the townies are. I really really find this answer scummy.
I find his whole obsession with therapist rather odd What? I just disregarded him for standing up for Hiropro without letting him speak for himself. Thats hardly an obsession. I only voted him to save myself because I knew I was a mislynch and wasn't sure that he was town.
Also, town lists are bad this early in the game. Because anything you have right on there will be the prime targets for scum to kill. Scum know everyone that is town (no shit) but they don't know who town will focus on for lynching down the line. Anyone that is confirmed town, to townies, is usually who scum will go after first.
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On April 03 2012 09:19 omnomMuffins wrote: Why do you hate me so much seriously?
I just post that I don't believe you are cop, I post all my findings, and while not all of them are original, you just go after me?
I'm sorry I suck as an observer all right?
Anywho, going off of my post that I made, I will happily go with my gut.
##vote kohbee
I do not believe you are the real cop.
On April 03 2012 09:22 omnomMuffins wrote: Actually I think the real reason you don't like me is because I took your power away by pointing out that you actually have none when you announced you were role blocked.
So you are as blind as the rest of us, and need to act like you have power. Or you are mafia.
To me these posts start off wanting empathy and pity (as almost all his posts do). This seems emotional like a new scum player that got caught and is trying to guilt town into not lynching him.
To me, he is basically saying "Guys! Get this big meanie off of me"
Ps. Omnom, I don't dislike you at all IRL and outside of this game. I will buy you a beer if we ever meet in person.
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Now that things have calmed down for me as well, I'll post the few thoughts I have on people:
KharadBanar - Probably townie, or the most helpful Mafia I've seen. Most of his posts are on-topic and seem well thought out. I can't think of much more to say except the Arnold quote also gave me a nice chuckle and makes him +1 in my book.
Omnomnom - I'm not sure yet. He has one really substantive post and then a couple of smaller posts, but not much else. He also decries spamming the thread, but then spams the thread to get rid of the GIF that Khobee posted. I think time will tell on this one, since he did have a legit excuse for being gone. In my mind, it could go either way. The excuse for being gone, while legit, could also be the perfect excuse for Mafia to lurk and let other people do the dirty work. On the other hand, he could just be a Townie who hasn't had much time to post.
Kohbee - I think I've made it clear why Kohbee is my top suspect, though I will admit that my emotions got the best of me at the end of the first day. I'm probably not supposed to say this, but a big part of my annoyance was that Therapist is a friend outside of the game. We made sure to follow the rules and didn't talk about the game at all, but it did get under my skin to see him get lynched on the first day of his first game because of a last minute roleclaim.
I need to go through some more filters and take a look at the rest of people to see what I can come up with.
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The spamming I decried was essentially the NOU attitude spam that was going on, not a simple removal of an obnoxious gif, while I was trying to be active that if left there would in fact have made me mad.
Kohbee, if you go to IPL I expect that drink.
The next reason for why I am suspicious of Kohbee right now is simple. If Kohbee is a cop, why role block instead of simply kill, thereby getting rid of the the blue instead of getting rid of FourFace. I mean yes, I can see that FourFace was probably as aggravating to the mafia as he was to the rest of us, but keeping him alive would have been a good move since it would have essentially stopped the thread from progressing as it had before. Leaving Kohbee alive when the majority of people do not trust him as cop would have been an amazing well we fucked up moment that could have shattered pretty much all the trust going on in here (the little that there is) for good.
Then he claims my list of reasons and quotes to be emotional and pity gathering. No I was not pity gathering or begging on emotion. I was simply telling you guys when I would be able to be active once again.
The insta lynch of HiroPro that he wanted after TWO sentences is still really raw from the beginning, because those two sentences were apparently the most awkward or scummy things said yet, when they were preceeded by:
FourFace's immediate vote for self KB's conversation where he said ot "get back into character" and Some very awkward sentence structure from S&B.
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Before anyone notes that I seem to just be attacking Kohbee, he is the only one out there that I have any kind of solid read on, since he has the highest post count of people who are alive. At least half of the posts set off alarms, but as a reminder nothing is 100% concrete because the "cop" was roleblocked or we might not even have one.
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Solo, in a general game sense, I really don't like that you knew therapist outside of the game and only choose to disclose this now. I can see why you wouldn't move your vote off from an outside the game perspective and I don't know if this is necessarily fair (especially in a newbie game).
This also leads me to reason with why you were wishy-washy about giving an opinion on therapist in your first real post, and what motivated you to vote for me in the first place. Basically you go back to a completely null read and get away with an entire day/night cycle because of an outside the game excuse.
Omnom there are a couple things I want to respond to. and unfortunately I will not be at IPL TT, we can talk post game about another time.
If Kohbee is a cop, why role block instead of simply kill, thereby getting rid of the the blue instead of getting rid of FourFace. There is WIFOM logic to this but if I had to guess its because I am still a viable mis-lynch candidate. I don't pose any extra threat to scum because they can role-block me and I don't have much credibility with the town as it currently stands.
The insta lynch of HiroPro that he wanted after TWO sentences is still really raw from the beginning, because those two sentences were apparently the most awkward or scummy things said yet, when they were preceeded by:
FourFace's immediate vote for self KB's conversation where he said ot "get back into character" and Some very awkward sentence structure from S&B. Once again, I did not call for his lynch, nor did I rally people to vote for him. I simply put a vote and a reason on him to make him respond. Fourface is crazy as shit, thus him posting crazy as shit isn't scummy to me. KB posts like he has no fear of the repercussions for his posts, this is extremely townie as I have said before. s&b didn't really give me scum vibes.
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The roleblock on Kohbee could also come from a Jailkeeper who wanted to protect him because a doctor is an asset to keep around / keep him from killing someone if he was mafia. Just throwing that out there, I'm far from convinced he's town though.
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On April 04 2012 03:47 KharadBanar wrote: The roleblock on Kohbee could also come from a Jailkeeper who wanted to protect him because a doctor is an asset to keep around / keep him from killing someone if he was mafia. Just throwing that out there, I'm far from convinced he's town though.
Sure that is a possibility, but it is fairly easy to claim role blocked if the role doesn't exist in the first place.
So if we review from the start right now we have a few options.
Either way mafia has 1 guy who kills and 1 guy who roll blocks.
From there our options are
Cop/Doctor Cop/Jailkeep Doctor/Jailkeep just a cop just a doctor or just a jailkeep
So if he isn't actually a cop, that means there is a 50/50 chance that someone out there is the cop. If he is the cop that means he either has no protection, a medic for protection, or the only protection he has is the jail keep, which renders him inert since he gets role blocked from that protection every night making him essentially just a normal townie.
If he is cap and is getting role blocked by the jail keep, that means that he is trying to throw around extra weight that he doesn't really have either way simply by being blue. Being blue doesn't automatically give you better insight into anything, you need to use your abilities to have those insights. So throwing around weight because he is "cop" is actually fairly detrimental to town, and if he isn't cop, that means that he is also detrimental to town.
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On April 04 2012 04:16 omnomMuffins wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 03:47 KharadBanar wrote: The roleblock on Kohbee could also come from a Jailkeeper who wanted to protect him because a doctor is an asset to keep around / keep him from killing someone if he was mafia. Just throwing that out there, I'm far from convinced he's town though. Sure that is a possibility, but it is fairly easy to claim role blocked if the role doesn't exist in the first place. So if we review from the start right now we have a few options. Either way mafia has 1 guy who kills and 1 guy who roll blocks. From there our options are Cop/Doctor Cop/Jailkeep Doctor/Jailkeep just a cop just a doctor or just a jailkeep So if he isn't actually a cop, that means there is a 50/50 chance that someone out there is the cop. If he is the cop that means he either has no protection, a medic for protection, or the only protection he has is the jail keep, which renders him inert since he gets role blocked from that protection every night making him essentially just a normal townie. If he is cap and is getting role blocked by the jail keep, that means that he is trying to throw around extra weight that he doesn't really have either way simply by being blue. Being blue doesn't automatically give you better insight into anything, you need to use your abilities to have those insights. So throwing around weight because he is "cop" is actually fairly detrimental to town, and if he isn't cop, that means that he is also detrimental to town. If there was another sane cop they should have come forward and got me lynched. A 1 for 1 in a 9 - 2 starting game is beyond worth it.
Secondly, what do you mean by throwing around weight? (also meant to ask what an albert is). This just sounds like you are trying to make my voice sound louder than in reality it is. There is next to no one in the thread that currently trusts me, yet you act like I have this power over town to just get you lynched with the snap of my fingers. You seem scared.
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I seem scared? I"m just pointing out behavior and facts that are attributed to you.
Look at your reactions to whenever the FOS goes to you.
You degrade the people pointing it, declare them mafia, seemingly purposefully misinterpret what people are saying and you immediately deflect. That does not seem like confident behavior, especially if you know you are cop.
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Oh and an Albert is a term from event TL Mafia, when played in person. There is a twitch.tv staff member who is notorious for being flat out stupid when playing, even when sober. Every game he claims cop, whether he is town, mafia, medic or actually cop. This leads to no one believing him no matter what. He does make the game amusing when played in person though.
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On April 04 2012 05:20 omnomMuffins wrote: I seem scared? I"m just pointing out behavior and facts that are attributed to you.
Look at your reactions to whenever the FOS goes to you.
You degrade the people pointing it, declare them mafia, seemingly purposefully misinterpret what people are saying and you immediately deflect. That does not seem like confident behavior, especially if you know you are cop. The irony here is outstanding.
Can you point out where I degrade individuals (I'll call a whole group stupid after I have explained why) for FOS'ing me, because I think I just degrade their reasoning unlike yourself. + Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 09:46 omnomMuffins wrote: I don't believe Kohbee is cop, whether he is playing an Albert
On April 03 2012 08:08 omnomMuffins wrote: Kohbee shut your mouth please. Either that or he is an Albert and is just really so obnoxious He completely fails at reading comprehension So suck it.
There is some serious irony in you saying that I declare people who FOS me mafia.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 01:44 omnomMuffins wrote: ##Fourface
Don't really want to play with people with his attitude, it isn't helpful even if he is town. On April 03 2012 09:19 omnomMuffins wrote: Anywho, going off of my post that I made, I will happily go with my gut.
##vote kohbee
Can you point out where I purposefully misinterpret what people are saying and immediately deflect... because I can find this with your posting? + Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 08:31 omnomMuffins wrote: First you say, YOU SAY NOTHING SCUM!
Now you get all my reads and you say EVERYONE HAS SAID THAT ALREADY SCUM!
On April 03 2012 09:19 omnomMuffins wrote: Why do you hate me so much seriously?
I just post that I don't believe you are cop, I post all my findings, and while not all of them are original, you just go after me?
I'm sorry I suck as an observer all right?
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I like how you leave out all context in your quotes.
FourFace had just pulled out a slur at someone after implying the same slur several times. I don't want to play with someone that is that disrespectful. Especially since it says in the rules that you need to be respectful.
I didn't tell you to shut up because you were FOSing me, I told you to shut up because of your constant actions making it impossible to figure out anything in the thread since you were essentially standing in the middle of a highway yelling LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME I CAN MAKE TRAFFIC STOP LOOK AT ME.
I'm referring to the you hating me so much because you deliberately went after someone who was unable to defend themselves because of an absence that was announced BEFORE roles were given out. If someone else had announced, hey I will be mostly AFK until Monday, will try to peak in here and there until then! and you had gone after them I still would have told you to shut up, because that is not a logical or respectful thing to do and is actually IRL scummy, regardless of your role in game.
Playing an Albert isn't degrading, it is just the term of a move, being calling cop no matter what.
But if we could be quiet for a bit and let the othres actually get a chance to talk so that we don't turn into FourFace v Kohbee v2, I would appreciate having the chance to read some of their reactions to anything. If we just keep the thread going, we will stall the great posts that have been made, such as the nice one earlier by S&B and the one by KB. Call me crazy but we get no new information if it is just 2 people talking.
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Also AFK from 6-10 EST to do a GOT mini marathon double date that was postponed from Sunday.
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On April 04 2012 06:02 omnomMuffins wrote: Playing an Albert isn't degrading, it is just the term of a move, being calling cop no matter what.
Contradictions from you are not few and far between.
On April 04 2012 05:22 omnomMuffins wrote: Oh and an Albert is a term from event TL Mafia, when played in person. There is a twitch.tv staff member who is notorious for being flat out stupid when playing, even when sober. Every game he claims cop, whether he is town, mafia, medic or actually cop. This leads to no one believing him no matter what. He does make the game amusing when played in person though.
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On April 04 2012 05:22 omnomMuffins wrote: Oh and an Albert is a term from event TL Mafia, when played in person. There is a twitch.tv staff member who is notorious for being flat out stupid when playing, even when sober. Every game he claims cop, whether he is town, mafia, medic or actually cop. This leads to no one believing him no matter what. He does make the game amusing when played in person though.
Selective reading skills are fun let me see what I can find!
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Ooh let me find some out of context quotes as well, those will be super helpful!
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why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post.
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List of my favorites!
On March 31 2012 00:10 Kohbee wrote:
You can't just start off a game with nothing expecting people to have scum reads, thats just not possible.
Followed by...
You were my second scum team member. Thanks for confirming with me
On the first day as your second post during the game!
Lets look at the next fun pair.
On April 01 2012 03:55 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 03:51 Therapist. wrote: Kohbee tries to act like he's confirmed two scum in his mind from the start. Why would he be so aggressive in calling people out as scum so early in the game if he were not trying to lead people away from himself and his partner? Hiropro may very well be scum, I have no idea. I know I'm not. I think more people need to call out Kohbee and see what he's really made of. I don't talk to scum
Oh no! Someone calls you out so you refuse to talk to them in any way. I am assume that means that it is super helpful and not deflecty to ignore statements!
On April 01 2012 04:04 Kohbee wrote:
I don't know why you take offense to my posts. In a completely non-game related comment, you seem to be extremely sensitive to critism of your ideas.
Oh no! Someone disagrees with me! Let me tell them how they are wrong by being something I don't approve of!
Not to mention the quotes when posting on your roommates accounts that are nuked so we cant see what was said.
Ooh now lets look at how your attitude to me couldn't stay consistant even when giving you guys updates on when I would be available.
On April 02 2012 03:24 Kohbee wrote:
I don't like this vote at all. He has said numerous times why he is not here (onog) and has atleast checked in where solohan has not. If you want to lynch a lurker why are you ignoring solohan.
Also, why not vote strongandbig if you think he scumslipped?
To, after an update about why I was unable to post, offering on stream recorded alibi's from the trust worthy Grubby.
On April 02 2012 22:26 Kohbee wrote:
Omnomnom doesn't give a shit about reading the thread. This could be because of ONOG, but it also could be because of him being scum and watching the town have little to no pressure on him. [/b]
Basically somewhere between me not being able to pay attention and waking up on Monday you had a complete change of tone, for seemingly no reason. The tone of your posts towards me were tailored to get angry reactions, which you got.
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On April 04 2012 06:11 Kohbee wrote: why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post. Maybe he calls him flat out stupid because Albert actually plays flat out stupid? I don't know that player but seeing as he claims cop every game it's definitely a possibility? Kohbee, I don't like to repeat myself but you seemed rather intelligent at the start of the game, and ever since your claim that sense of intelligence I'm getting from you has started to decline, reaching a temporary low just now. If you want to be the new FourFace, so be it, but prepare to get lynched right here and now. Please do yourself and town a favor and prove to us that you can actually provide helpful content instead of pages of The Eternal Flame War Extended Edition. It might get you enough cred with the other players that they rethink their scum reads on you, but at the moment you certainly don't look particularly pro-town.
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On April 04 2012 06:11 Kohbee wrote: why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post.
You apparently have never been to a real life TL mafia event and for that I am sad for you, they are the funnest things. However you have to realize that Albert makes bad plays in mafia, he is really smart in other ways, and I am wrong to assume that everyone here knows about Albert. Explaining Albert as a person and calling you an Albert is not calling you stupid. Explaining what an Albert is in parlance, is simply claiming cop nonstop. You wanted to know what/who an Albert was so first I told you who, then I told you what.
This entire thread reminds me of the Wax, Nazgul, hotbid fights. If all 3 of those are ever town they always still eliminate each other, and it is fairly amusing to watch from the outside, but painful to be in the middle of. The only time you don't see them fighting is when two of them are mafia, or if all of them are, but they still do fight then, their heart just isn't in it.
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Also on a totally side note to Solohan50.
I'm heading out to Vegas this weekend for IPL. Is it shorts weather there yet?
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On April 04 2012 06:20 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:11 Kohbee wrote: why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post. Maybe he calls him flat out stupid because Albert actually plays flat out stupid? I don't know that player but seeing as he claims cop every game it's definitely a possibility? Kohbee, I don't like to repeat myself but you seemed rather intelligent at the start of the game, and ever since your claim that sense of intelligence I'm getting from you has started to decline, reaching a temporary low just now. If you want to be the new FourFace, so be it, but prepare to get lynched right here and now. Please do yourself and town a favor and prove to us that you can actually provide helpful content instead of pages of The Eternal Flame War Extended Edition. It might get you enough cred with the other players that they rethink their scum reads on you, but at the moment you certainly don't look particularly pro-town. So if omnom flips scum, will i still look less intelligent to you?
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On April 04 2012 06:47 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:20 KharadBanar wrote:On April 04 2012 06:11 Kohbee wrote: why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post. Maybe he calls him flat out stupid because Albert actually plays flat out stupid? I don't know that player but seeing as he claims cop every game it's definitely a possibility? Kohbee, I don't like to repeat myself but you seemed rather intelligent at the start of the game, and ever since your claim that sense of intelligence I'm getting from you has started to decline, reaching a temporary low just now. If you want to be the new FourFace, so be it, but prepare to get lynched right here and now. Please do yourself and town a favor and prove to us that you can actually provide helpful content instead of pages of The Eternal Flame War Extended Edition. It might get you enough cred with the other players that they rethink their scum reads on you, but at the moment you certainly don't look particularly pro-town. So if omnom flips scum, will i still look less intelligent to you?
The point isn't who looks more or less intelligent right now. The two of are look like 3 years olds having a tantrum because we lost our favorite toy.
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On April 04 2012 06:47 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:20 KharadBanar wrote:On April 04 2012 06:11 Kohbee wrote: why include the part about him being flat out stupid if it has nothing to do with the definition of the term. You are back peddling, I read the entire post. Maybe he calls him flat out stupid because Albert actually plays flat out stupid? I don't know that player but seeing as he claims cop every game it's definitely a possibility? Kohbee, I don't like to repeat myself but you seemed rather intelligent at the start of the game, and ever since your claim that sense of intelligence I'm getting from you has started to decline, reaching a temporary low just now. If you want to be the new FourFace, so be it, but prepare to get lynched right here and now. Please do yourself and town a favor and prove to us that you can actually provide helpful content instead of pages of The Eternal Flame War Extended Edition. It might get you enough cred with the other players that they rethink their scum reads on you, but at the moment you certainly don't look particularly pro-town. So if omnom flips scum, will i still look less intelligent to you? The question here is if you get enough people to believe you. If he actually flips scum, I'll grant you that you called it, but right now I'm far from convinced that he will. At least he seems to understand that an extended discussion The same applies the other way around: If you die at some point (seems more probable at this point than omnomMuffins dying) and flip scum, then I'll strongly believe omnomMuffins to be town, because scumbuddies probably won't go to such lenghts as to fake a flame war between each other. Also, there is still the distinct possibility of you both being town, in which case the whole consideration is pretty moot anyway. If you keep prolonging this discussion any further without saying something truly new, I'm tempted to vote you even if you're the cop because your ability will be pretty useless when constantly roleblocked and you at this point really act as a liability to town. Enough of that.
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Okay double date time, be back after.
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Since noone else has any strong reads, can we get peoples opinions on things? Otherwise we will be forced into a chaotic last hour similar to the first night.
Strong, how do you feel about hiropro, solohan and marvel
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Kohbee - On the first day of posting Marvel pressed you for your reads on town and you replied
There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline.
Is there a reason that you never posted anything like this at the end of first night?
I don't understand the examples that omnomMuffins brings up at all. While they may be interesting stories, they have absolutely nothing to do with the game we are in. This seems like a very scummy action to me because it draws attention away from actual posts and reads.
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On April 04 2012 07:04 KharadBanar wrote: The same applies the other way around: If you die at some point (seems more probable at this point than omnomMuffins dying) and flip scum, then I'll strongly believe omnomMuffins to be town, because scumbuddies probably won't go to such lenghts as to fake a flame war between each other.
I don't think this is an assumption that we can make. While it's true that the odds of Kohbee and omnomnom being opposite sides are good, mafia members are fully capable of going after each other verbally in order to fool town.
The only assumption of that nature that I am willing to make is that if Kohbee is mafia, strong and solo are not - because they voted directly for Kohbee at a time when it looked like he was going to get lynched and that is definetely not something mafia partners would do day 1 when there is a viable alternative lynch.
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On April 04 2012 07:58 HiroPro wrote:Kohbee - On the first day of posting Marvel pressed you for your reads on town and you replied Show nested quote +There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline. Is there a reason that you never posted anything like this at the end of first night? I don't understand the examples that omnomMuffins brings up at all. While they may be interesting stories, they have absolutely nothing to do with the game we are in. This seems like a very scummy action to me because it draws attention away from actual posts and reads.
I did. It was an image of my google docs sheet. I also have posted a couple times on why people like marvel, kb and fourface are town.
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My mistake. I did not see that post.
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Hiro would you be so kind to post your reads on omnom, solohan and strong
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Omnom is my strongest scum read. He defends himself purely by saying that you are not cop and are a bad person. The reads he has given make him seem very scummy because a lot of them focus purely on what he thinks of them personally.
Solohan formed a very illogical case against you and I don't trust the motivations behind him saying that Therapist was his friend. He looks scummy to me.
I am unsure on strong. He is definetely focusing on finding mafia and forming cases, which leads me to believe that he is town. But certain posts, such as the one he made on Foolishness don't make sense to me because he's arguing a mixture of things that we already know to be true (Foolishness is town) and things that are WIFOM and just plain distracting.
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(non-aggressively) What are you waiting for to vote him?
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Can you elaborate on why you initially thought marvel was scum, and what you think about him now?
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Marvel made a vote on FourFace, who was acting completely like town, albeit a little over-the-top. FourFace was also a person who looked like a leader, and those are the kind of people that mafia try to get rid of.
Since then, marvel has made good reads, posted very clearly, and focused on scum hunting. I think it is unlikely for marvel to be mafia.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Hiro, could you please outline your case on omnom a little more? I find he has less negative points than Kohbee does.
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Who I would like to hear from
KB - opinions on solohan, hiropro and marvel
Marvel - opinions on strong, omnom, and hiropro
Strong - opinions on hiropro, solohan and marvel
Solohan - opinions on hiropro, strong and marvel
Omnom - opinions on solohan, hiropro and KB
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On April 04 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: Hiro, could you please outline your case on omnom a little more? I find he has less negative points than Kohbee does.
The biggest thing against omnom for me is that he seems to not care about actually looking for scum. The quotes are from omnom's posts arguing against FourFace and Kohbee.
Don't really want to play with people with his attitude, it isn't helpful even if he is town.
His reaction with the umadbro post was just very silly and immature, not something that someone that is trying to lead should be doing. That helped solidify my thoughts that he is not actually cop, though as stated, no one actually knows if there is a cop.
Should people be posting rudely? No. But posting rudely has nothing to do with being mafia. While not looking for mafia is definiteley a characteristic of scum.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:28 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: Hiro, could you please outline your case on omnom a little more? I find he has less negative points than Kohbee does. The biggest thing against omnom for me is that he seems to not care about actually looking for scum. The quotes are from omnom's posts arguing against FourFace and Kohbee. Show nested quote +Don't really want to play with people with his attitude, it isn't helpful even if he is town. Show nested quote +His reaction with the umadbro post was just very silly and immature, not something that someone that is trying to lead should be doing. That helped solidify my thoughts that he is not actually cop, though as stated, no one actually knows if there is a cop. Should people be posting rudely? No. But posting rudely has nothing to do with being mafia. While not looking for mafia is definiteley a characteristic of scum.
While I agree with you, it just feels like Kohbee has done it more. Certainly Kohbee was giving as good as he got in the last one, and Fourface was being a total douche at the time.
I will have to go over the filters again, I went over everyone's about 8 or 9 hours ago (whenever i posted on kohbee) but tells may have come up in the meanwhile. My notes say I had a pretty null read on omnom at the time.
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On April 04 2012 08:53 Kohbee wrote: Who I would like to hear from
KB - opinions on solohan, hiropro and marvel
Now that's getting somewhere. Nice to see you actually putting some effort into coordinating people
My opinions for you, sir: I honestly haven't thought all that much about HiroPro yet, but after some reading he sounds like someone who puts a good amount of quality control into his posts and only contributes if there is something sensible/new to say, which I at times missed among other participants of this game, but his self-limitation goes not too far into the luking direction, so there's definitely some town vibes in there. Also appreciates some of my posting, but that's no towntell but a personal matter
On marvellosity I have a null read overall, the reason for this being that he doesn't behave like obvious scum (obvious scum being lurking, posting bad reads etc.) but not like obvious town either. If he happens to be scum, my gut instinct would suspect his buddy to be you, because he basically saved you in the Great Voting Craze™ by putting Therapist up one vote. This doesn't make him scum automatically though because I had basically exactly the same thought processes up to this point, believing Therapist to be one of the most scummy persons around. (And I'm a townie, right? )
My view on Solohan50 has not changed since the last time I wrote about it. Reading his filter (which is easy, since it's the shortest of all) I found his case on you less than compelling to say the least (It centers on your vote cast in the very beginning of the game). Add to that the fact that he refused to take the vote off of you in the Great Voting Craze™ and it could well be that there's a scum member wanting to finish a blue somewhere in there. Either that, or he's a very zealous townie which could backfire in other lynch votes later on. The only case I'm really excluding from my considerations there is that you are both scum, because he could have easily changed his vote around during that mess and therefore made sure to get a townie with it. This was however worked out by FourFace before, I just now caught that while re-reading the thread.
On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair.
This means that you actually have a slight town read in my book, believe it or not. However, nothing is confirmed just yet and all my opinions are subject to change if someone objects in an eloquent and non-scummy manner.
tl;dr: ##Vote: Solohan50
P.S. After finishing up this tremendous wall of text, I would invite omnomMuffins along to join our discussion as it finally has gotten the chance to get a little more civilised and the chance to get hit by randomly flying accusations has slightly lowered.
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I am 100% sure that Solohan50 is scum.
I am not 100% about omnom. More like 65%.
Solohan50 slipped here as I tried to point out.
On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie. When that failed, he roleclaimed and bandwagoned a townie right at the end of the day. On top of that, the townie he lynched was one of the most vocal anti-Kohbee players in the thread short of FourFace.
Can anyone honestly read this and say that he is talking about the same person in the first and second sentences? He is clearly talking about hiropro in the first sentence and therapist in the 2nd and 3rd. He knows that Hiropro is a townie because he is scum.
He then realizes this and tries to post this as an excuse
On April 03 2012 02:39 Solohan50 wrote: I think it was pretty apparent by my post who I was referring to, but I'll reiterate it just for you, Kohbee. You were pushing for Therapist to get lynched, and you got it by bandwagoning him with your roleclaim. weak OMGUS(at reading).
Also, in the off chance that he is not lying here and he is refering to therapist in the first sentence as well, his case is such forced garbage. To say I had spent the whole day trying to lynch Therapist is a straight up lie and the laziest case ever made (which he has now tried to carry to day2). For proof. I had 2 posts about therapist being scum which were (as I have explained) more to shut him up about my vote on hiro. + Show Spoiler +On April 01 2012 03:38 Kohbee wrote:You were my second scum team member. Thanks for confirming with me On April 01 2012 03:55 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 03:51 Therapist. wrote: Kohbee tries to act like he's confirmed two scum in his mind from the start. Why would he be so aggressive in calling people out as scum so early in the game if he were not trying to lead people away from himself and his partner? Hiropro may very well be scum, I have no idea. I know I'm not. I think more people need to call out Kohbee and see what he's really made of. I don't talk to scum
Later on I even said we should be looking at marvel and strong (no mention of therapist)
+ Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 05:10 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 04:58 Solohan50 wrote: Before the game started, Kohbee was overflowing at the mouth. He was posting lengthy diatribes while going back and forth with FourFace. Once the game started, however, he started with an immediate vote with very little reasoning. Two paragraphs about whether memes and SC2 jokes should be included in a game of Mafia, following by a ##vote with almost no explanation? I find this change of style very suspicious. He has continued the trend of talking very little throughout this thread, as well as flip-flopping on the vote and causing us to lose one of our big tell moments. Because of this, I'm casting my vote for Kohbee.
##Vote: Kohbee but i got what i wanted out of hiro which was a townie response. I haven't had much to say. I am thinking right now we should be voting marvel or strongandbig
then you can look at the rest of my posts "spending the whole day trying to lynch a townie" + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 05:37 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:35 FourFace wrote:what the hell EBWOP: On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote: He reacted as I would as town.
Is that a scumslip? He reacted as you would if you were town, meaning you're scum? no. can we get back to talking about marvel and therapist QUOTE] On April 02 2012 05:20 Kohbee wrote:I KEEP FUCKING DOING THIS. OK LEAVING HIS ROOM quoting for filter On April 02 2012 05:18 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:15 FourFace wrote: I think we can get back to the discussion now.
Would it be too late to start voting for Hiro? its not too late for anyone. I don't think hiro is scum and I think his reaction to my vote was that of one who doesn't care about being voted for. He reacted as I would as town. Marvel and the rapist should be who we are looking at On April 02 2012 05:49 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:40 KharadBanar wrote:On April 02 2012 04:51 FourFace wrote: FourFace: meh, you got nothing on me. But if you get something try not to talk gibberish and explain every aspect of your allegations like you're telling it to an alien from K-Pax. Saying stuff like I'm not consistent and that's a minor scumtell is just driving me nuts because I have to think for the guy who accused me.
Wait what? Are you accusing yourself? Or are you talking to me? And yes that's right, I got nothing on you. But not a strong town read either. It's entirely possible that a scum wants to get himself into the leading position of the town (I did this in one game IRL and it worked great). Also, your aggressive behaviour makes constructive argumentation not exactly easier. Now to some other things: At the moment I'm leaning Therapist, because he still hasn't gone off his Kohbee vote yet, whom I have marked as pretty townish in my mind. Kohbee: You stated that marvellosity and strongandbig are good vote targets. Care to elaborate? ##Vote: TherapistThis is not final yet, but I am too distracted to 100% think right now (LAN party -.-) tbh I don't have any strong scum reads. Mostly I have a few town reads who I will not let get lynched today. Other than that Idk, all 3 of strong marvel and therapist are good lynches imo today ##vote therapist [/QUOTE] You can even see that I didn't even vote him till around 4 hours before lynch!
Solohan50 is scum
##unvote ##vote solohan50
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KB, since you're the second person to say that my case against Kohbee doesn't make sense, I'll try rephrasing it to see if it helps get my point across. If not, then perhaps I'm incorrect and need to rethink my position. The reasons I think that Kohbee is the most logical Mafia pick are the following:
- He was the #1 suspect on Day 1 (he was up two votes, 4-2, until the roleclaim). - One of his loud critics, Therapist, was mis-lynched because of the last minute roleclaim. Since Therapist was the second choice for the Day 1 lynch (behind Kohbee), the roleclaim was a good way to spread confusion and get the second choice lynched. - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now. I've posted what I've gleaned from other players, but mostly I've just been able to find people that I'm relatively certain are town (like KB). I'm also well aware that my single-mindedness may come around and bite me. If I was worried about that, I would've jumped on the Therapist bandwagon like everyone else, especially when it was clear that Kohbee was going to live. I even reaffirmed my choice despite the risk near the end of the vote, because I believe that Kohbee has the strongest chance of being Mafia.
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and poof.. just like that.. hes back
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Kohbee, I disagree with your entire point about Therapist/HiroPro. As far as I understood Solohan, he was clearly talking about Therapist in his post. Therefore his 2nd post was not an excuse.
You then go on to 'explain' that you were not going after Therapist the whole day, before then demonstrating you kinda were. You say your first two posts were to "shut him up" - nonetheless you made them, and you made them in a non-productive, pointless way. Then as you point out yourself as well, you say 3 times later on that we should be looking at therapist, and then you vote for him.
If a vote for him plus mentioning you think he's scummy AT least 5 times doesn't warrant Solohan saying you were on therapist's back all day, I don't know what does.
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On April 04 2012 06:25 omnomMuffins wrote: Also on a totally side note to Solohan50.
I'm heading out to Vegas this weekend for IPL. Is it shorts weather there yet?
When I was there on Saturday, you could've definitely gotten by with shorts in the day. If the weather was anything like where I broke down at though, shorts would suck at night. To be fair though, we got stuck at the top of the big hill/mountain that's right past the Cali/Nevada border on the I-15S. The altitude difference might make a large difference in the temperature, but it was cold as hell and super windy at night at the place I was stuck at. I was only in town long enough to load up a trailer, grab dinner, and then get out of town.
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On April 04 2012 10:56 Solohan50 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:25 omnomMuffins wrote: Also on a totally side note to Solohan50.
I'm heading out to Vegas this weekend for IPL. Is it shorts weather there yet? When I was there on Saturday, you could've definitely gotten by with shorts in the day. If the weather was anything like where I broke down at though, shorts would suck at night. To be fair though, we got stuck at the top of the big hill/mountain that's right past the Cali/Nevada border on the I-15S. The altitude difference might make a large difference in the temperature, but it was cold as hell and super windy at night at the place I was stuck at. I was only in town long enough to load up a trailer, grab dinner, and then get out of town.
So skirts and shorts on the strip, got it thanks
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On April 04 2012 10:55 marvellosity wrote: Kohbee, I disagree with your entire point about Therapist/HiroPro. As far as I understood Solohan, he was clearly talking about Therapist in his post. Therefore his 2nd post was not an excuse.
You then go on to 'explain' that you were not going after Therapist the whole day, before then demonstrating you kinda were. You say your first two posts were to "shut him up" - nonetheless you made them, and you made them in a non-productive, pointless way. Then as you point out yourself as well, you say 3 times later on that we should be looking at therapist, and then you vote for him.
If a vote for him plus mentioning you think he's scummy AT least 5 times doesn't warrant Solohan saying you were on therapist's back all day, I don't know what does.
5 posts. 2 of which call him scum. 2 of which just ask people to talk about him.
3 of which were in the last 20% of day 1
I am sorry but you are just wrong
Your soft defense of solo is noted
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On April 04 2012 08:53 Kohbee wrote:
Omnom - opinions on solohan, hiropro and KB
My read on HiroPro keeps flip flopping. Sometimes he seems town, other times he seems mafia (I hate the word scum, it reminds me of the stuff on top of swamps). Currently I'm reading a little harder on mafia, though that could just be because he missed reading a post of yours earlier (the one with all your reads), which he might have actually missed instead of "missed".
KB I think is clean and probably the biggest voice of reason in the thread. He is keeping us from ripping each others throats out.
Solohan, no solid read so far. Though the times when he posts always seem to be after a threat, he could just be coincidentally returning at that time or just staying to protect himself. I wouldn't want to lynch him off of that fact alone.
On a side note, I love the casting of the Red Witch for this season in the Game of Thrones. I don't know why I am adding this, but my fiance hasn't read the books so I can't gush to him about these things and I am rather exploding with it.
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btw solo are you or therapist irl friends with anyone else in the game?
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Kohbee can you please stop being so stand offish? That causes false scum reads from so many people because of actual reactions to your tone. Bash me all you want, but please be more civil to the others.
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How would you rather me tell him he is wrong. I provided evidence and told him my opinion. I have said all along I will call it like I see it
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On April 04 2012 11:17 Kohbee wrote: btw solo are you or therapist irl friends with anyone else in the game?
Actually this is meant to be asked of everyone... Is there anyone else that is IRL friends with anyone else?
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Calling it how you see it is fine.
Just please try to do it more civilly in a way that won't cause everyone to have an immediate backlash against you. Phrasing and word choice matters. The way you phrase things now causes false scum reads because everyone is already irate.
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On April 04 2012 10:55 marvellosity wrote: Kohbee, I disagree with your entire point about Therapist/HiroPro. As far as I understood Solohan, he was clearly talking about Therapist in his post. Therefore his 2nd post was not an excuse.
You then go on to 'explain' that you were not going after Therapist the whole day, before then demonstrating you kinda were. You say your first two posts were to "shut him up" - nonetheless you made them, and you made them in a non-productive, pointless way. Then as you point out yourself as well, you say 3 times later on that we should be looking at therapist, and then you vote for him.
If a vote for him plus mentioning you think he's scummy AT least 5 times doesn't warrant Solohan saying you were on therapist's back all day, I don't know what does.
5 posts. 2 of which call him scum. 2 of which just ask people to talk about him.
3 of which were in the last 20% of day 1
I believe that the facts say that your assessment is incorrect
Your soft defense of solo is noted
better?
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Yes
Though if you could lose the threatening tone with the last line we would be just about perfect.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Sigh. You're so aggressive. You mentioned him in a couple of other posts too, looking at your filter.
You've pointed fingers at almost everybody in the game. Almost your whole filter reads to me as creating a bad town atmosphere (various OMGUS, attacks, etc). You've sown confusion where there didn't have to be any, pointed fingers, and with your arguments with Fourface and omnom totally derailed town discussion. You roleclaimed blue in a terrible fashion for town; this could be scummy play or bad townie play, but together with the rest of your posts clearly leans towards a desperate scum move.
The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me).
Of secondary consideration here is the large amount of information we get from a Kohbee lynch. As Fourface handily pointed out earlier, we can already eliminate several Kohbee + someone else combinations. If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee
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If you lynch me and I flip DT will you lynch solohan?
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Aggression is not a scum trait.
Also, Fourface literally saved me from being lynched. Both you and solo have now used fourface against me, which I find really weird. That is some serious WIFOM you guys are bringing up. Someone I called town (the entire game i might add) got killed by scum and flippd town, this now someone helps the case against me being town? If we are going to do WIFOM Why would I call fourface town when others wanted to lynch him and I argued out against them.
To say I consistantly attacked therapist is a HUGE overstatement.
one more thing
On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee What?
If I flip blue cop, you and solohan have some SERIOUS explaining to do, don't try and act like my mislynch doesn't have reprecussions
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On April 04 2012 12:00 omnomMuffins wrote: Dark Templar? Detective, aka cop
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Sorry still learning all the acronyms :X
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So what is your answer if I flip sane cop would you lynch solo? (this goes out to everyone, especially marvel and omnom)
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Because of your style of posting, you have made it so that no one trusts you and it has made it so that anyone accusing you of anything is pretty much worthless because you are just a shiny distraction. Especially with the supposed role blocking going on, it will just put us back to zero without having the two largest distractions. Who I would vote on that largely depends on how people act without you in the mix as you have been dictating the entire game with your plethora of comments.
As someone who has also made a case against you, simply wanting to lynch you is not a capital offense, if it was most of us will be dead.
Sure a mislynch will have repercussions, but keeping around a distraction who is essentially the same as any other townie with the "roleblocking" isn't the worst move we could make.
If you do turn up as a blue, well then we are back where we started. Not having a blue since you were "role blocked" anyway. Seeing how people interact without your overlying influence will be the judge of who we lynch next, not you demanding we lynch someone after you die.
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On April 04 2012 12:04 Kohbee wrote:Aggression is not a scum trait. Also, Fourface literally saved me from being lynched. Both you and solo have now used fourface against me, which I find really weird. That is some serious WIFOM you guys are bringing up. Someone I called town (the entire game i might add) got killed by scum and flippd town, this now someone helps the case against me being town? If we are going to do WIFOM Why would I call fourface town when others wanted to lynch him and I argued out against them. To say I consistantly attacked therapist is a HUGE overstatement. one more thing Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee What? If I flip blue cop, you and solohan have some SERIOUS explaining to do, don't try and act like my mislynch doesn't have reprecussions
You leave out 95% of my valid arguments to strike back on non-points.
I did not say you consistently attacked therapist, I said he attacked you. My point about Fourface was that he attacked you, not the other way round.
I also nowhere tried to act like you flipping blue would have no repercussions (how is me saying the information would be vast = no repurcussions??)
I am pretty certain you will not flip blue, and for the whole plethora of reasons already outlined, you are scum.
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More reads!
These are going to be a bit more wishy-washy. There's less information on a lot of these people.
Omnom - I don't get the same scum vibe off of him that some other people seem to. I think that if I were in the same situation as he was (tired, frustrated after a hard day that he didn't expect to be so difficult, etc) then I would have responded in much the same way to the hugely annoying argument between fourface and kohbee. HOWEVER - this doesn't mean he's town. He's been posting a ton since the end of his tournament - his filter is longer than mine, despite not being able to pay attention to the thread for like the first third of it - and a lot of his posts are filler or arguing with people. Therefore, unsure - leaning town-ish
Solohan The toughie of the group today. He doesn't post much, which is something that people seem to be treating as a mafia tell. However, when he does post, he takes a strong stand. That's not very much of a scum tell. He has nine posts, all of which are in this thread. He could be scum, but he also might not be. Unsure - leaning scummy?
hiropro Nope, not much of a read here either. Don't think he's scum. His day 1 actions don't add up (unless he and kohbee are both scum, but I think that's unlikely.) unsure - leaning townie
Marvellosity His day 1 vote flipflops were kind of suspicious, and I don't think he's made it back from that yet.
All that said!
As I've said countless times, in the same case I've been making since day 1, I think Kohbee is scum.
##vote: Kohbee
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Also so everyone knows, I am flying to Vegas tomorrow and will obviously be AFK in route (unless I get one of those wonderful flights with wifi). I will be checking my phone all day though, and will be able to reply, though I will not be able to quote people exactly because phones suck.
Just keeping people in the loop so that I don't get called out for "not giving a shit about the thread" again. I love mafia. Mafia is the reason eSports exists. eSports is simply an excuse to play Mafia.
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On April 04 2012 12:21 strongandbig wrote:
Solohan The toughie of the group today. He doesn't post much, which is something that people seem to be treating as a mafia tell. However, when he does post, he takes a strong stand. That's not very much of a scum tell. He has nine posts, all of which are in this thread. He could be scum, but he also might not be. Unsure - leaning scummy?
In his 9 posts, the only thing he is sure of is that I am scum and KB is town. If I flip blue will you lynch solo?
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when solohan flips scum people will trust me. Its too bad I might be dead by the time that happens
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Going to sleep. Will be on sporadically tommorrow.
If you want to lynch the guy who is continuing actual game discussion when there otherwise is none, and is a cop, then well I don't know what to say.
If you want to lynch scum, who I will put my lynch on the line for, then please vote for solohan50.
I remind you that I am willing to take full responsibility for solohan's lynch. If he flips town then I should become suspect number 1.
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Solohan has acted a lot more scummy than Kohbee. His arguments make very little sense and the reads that he has provided are very minimal.
While I'm not fully sure about Kohbee, he has pushed for reads and focus on finding mafia both day 1 and today, which are townie qualities.
##Unvote
##Vote: Solohan50
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No, he has not acted more scummy. I think you're making a terrible mistake preferring Solohan over Kohbee, Hiro. I concisely listed a whole bunch of points about Kohbee, but you seem to be saying these are all totally outweighed by Solohan being a little quiet and thinking Kohbee is scum? Poor thinking imo.
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Sleep over, Deep breath, Logic time. Let’s go.
Strong and Omnom
I would like for both of you to reconsider your vote on me instead of Solohan50.
Strong, I read your case on me and responded to it. I will reiterate some key points that I believe refute what you think are scum tells.
Me telling therapist that I wouldn't talk to him was not me stifling discussion, I simply wanted Hiropro to answer for himself. Also, you act like I wanted a bandwagon on Hiropro but I never told anyone to vote for him or even asked others opinions on him. I presented a 1 sentence case based on his 2 sentences in the thread and waited for a response.
Your second point basically boils down to you believing that a cop would not play the way I have. I don't know how many games of forum mafia you have played, but you will quickly find out that you can never depend on people to play as you would (in any role) and you can almost never depend on them to play "right".
Omnom, your vote on me is (imo) mostly based off the "fight" we had in the thread for a few hours/days. I think we both got emotionally heated and ended up voting for one another based off this. I ask you to not make the same mistake twice (I call it a mistake because I know I am town) by voting for 2 townies based off you being mad at them for being assholes.
I know that you think I am annoying and abrasive, tbh I don't care that you think that. I will answer any direct questions from now on but I will no longer post as I have previously as I don't need reactions anymore, I have found the scum team. However, if you vote for solohan, regardless of outcome it will completely shut me up. If he flips town, I will take responsibility, post my apologies, and take my impending lynch. When he flips scum, I will high five myself, then vote marvel tomorrow without any argumentation.
I believe that you two and Hiropro and KB are our remaining town. If you do not see the logic in KB's and my own case against Solohan today I ask that you please believe me and him upon my flip.
Solohan is scum. Marvel is scum.
Omnom, I wanted to lynch you and I saw you townslip hard. This post+ Show Spoiler + On April 03 2012 09:47 omnomMuffins wrote: EBWOP: Wait, we don't have the confirmed set? I thought it was 2 mafia, one godfather, the other role blocker, and a cop and a medic?
Time to read the OP more closely. seems genuine. I overlooked this when I thought you were scum because I was being stupid and not as logical as I should have been.
Strong has been open with everything he has done. He doesn't seem to have any hidden motive and is more than willing to share his opinions. He does this is a genuine manner and there doesn't seem to be any hesitation or contradiction in his play.
If I do get lynched and when I flip Sane Cop, this should immediately confirm Hiropro and KB as town. To argue otherwise is stupid and illogical.
Hey Kohbee, why is Marvel also scum?
Well thats pretty simple. Marvel's day 1 was bad (as he admitted) but he covered it by saving a blue to lynch a townie. The funny thing about Marvel's play is that he is literally never willing to accept responsibility for anything he does. Every decision he makes is laced with an out for him + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: EBWOP: I still think Therapist. is townie, but I think the chance he's mafia is a bit higher right now than Kohbee. On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
##Vote: Kohbee In this post he literally sets up the scum's night actions + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 09:16 marvellosity wrote: Bah.
Ok let's think. Therapist is townie, and if Kohbee is telling the truth, he is blue cop. If that is the case, the clear play for mafia is to hit Kohbee. Mafia could go for the double bluff and not hit Kohbee, but if he's the cop it's way too risky because he could find out their alignment.
If Kohbee is lying, then he's mafia. And if Kohbee is mafia, then I think we can say without doubt he won't be killing himself.
So we should know at the end of the night what is what. and then continues with the same WIFOM argument the next day.
He also says that he has 2 scum reads, but only posts reads on me. + Show Spoiler + On April 03 2012 23:24 marvellosity wrote: At the moment, I have two possible scum reads, one expected, one perhaps not - but I'd like to start with Kohbee, the expected. (if you read his filter you can see he has only posted about me since this post). This was almost 24 hours ago and still no second read. This is a HUGE scum tell to promise something and then not come through with it.
He is also chainsaw defending Solohan50 like the life of his game was on the line. He just softly OMGUS'd Hiropro with a completely vague argument for why he is voting the way he is.
+ Show Spoiler +If I don't see either Strong or Omnom respond to this I will repost on the next page and so on until they do
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I did say I have 2 scum reads, unfortunately the 2nd relies heavily on you being scum. Which I've realised is a bit too WIFOM.
Responsibility for my actions? You are the first person I'm pushing hard for a lynch, Kohbee. I am well aware that if you get lynched and you flip blue, I will be #1 target.
I think your case against me is weak. I have no idea why I would speculate about mafia actions if I were mafia.
At the end of Day 1, therapist was not posing a particular threat to mafia (unless it's you!), where as you definitely had the potential to do so (much more active posting). Yet it was my vote that condemned therapist and saved you. I just don't see how you can reconcile yourself to the fact that if I were mafia I wouldn't take the FREE BLUE LYNCH on day 1.
I agree with you that Solohan a) hasn't posted enough, b) has tunneled on you (I find one post only where he makes 2 reads on other people). But for me, this doesn't come close to comparing to
On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote:
You've pointed fingers at almost everybody in the game. Almost your whole filter reads to me as creating a bad town atmosphere (various OMGUS, attacks, etc). You've sown confusion where there didn't have to be any, pointed fingers, and with your arguments with Fourface and omnom totally derailed town discussion. You roleclaimed blue in a terrible fashion for town; this could be scummy play or bad townie play, but together with the rest of your posts clearly leans towards a desperate scum move.
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Kohbee, I read your responses.
Everyone will have to make up their own mind, but I am not persuaded by your explanation of your actions towards hiropro.
In large part that's due to a gut feeling that there was nothing specific about hiropro that would lead you to focus so intently on him early, as well as the other things I said earlier.
Additionally, there's another possibility which I hadn't considered earlier - that you and hiro could both be scum, and the random vote was an early distance attempt. This is added to by the fact that I don't see why "not caring that someone is voting for you" is a town reaction, especially in a newbie game. I guess that could be a matter of style, so it could be town, but I'm not sure why such a meek reaction would have placated you when you were drilling so hard at hiro.
That said - I agree that if you do turn out to be blue, then marvellosity looks very suspicious. I tend to prefer analyzing actions to words (this is the first forum mafia game I've played, so I wouldn't know what to do with meta even if we had some), so obviously his questionable day 1 puts him on my radar. There are other things about his actions that would smell bad if you do flip blue, as well - his analysis of how people opposed to you "wound up dead" would then smell like a relatively heavy-handed mafia frame-up.
At this moment we have five town and two mafia left alive. If today does turn out to be a mislynch, assuming a successful hit then tomorrow will be three town and two mafia, aka LYLO. However, I think we will be able to find at least one mafia at that time. I also don't think we will have a mislynch.
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On April 04 2012 23:54 strongandbig wrote:
That said - I agree that if you do turn out to be blue, then marvellosity looks very suspicious.
Additionally, there's another possibility which I hadn't considered earlier - that you and hiro could both be scum, and the random vote was an early distance attempt. This is added to by the fact that I don't see why "not caring that someone is voting for you" is a town reaction, especially in a newbie game.
1) Agreed
2) had crossed my mind before. But in my mind I didn't make it stick because of Hiro's posting pattern.
Firstly Hiro totally ignores Kohbee's vote at him. Then
On April 02 2012 08:49 HiroPro wrote: What on earth is going on? Why on earth are we lynching one of the most pro-town people. Therapist's main contribution has been imagining a ridiculous WIFOM scenario and people are voting for Kohbee!!!
Unvote: Solohan50
##Vote: Therapist.
This seemed rather an impassioned defence of Kohbee, someone who had accused him earlier. I don't know what his justification for calling Kohbee one of the most pro-town people was either.
BUT, subsequently, Hiro cast doubt on Kohbee's posting:
On April 03 2012 06:04 HiroPro wrote: FourFace made a post saying that you should stop making arguments based on the hypothetical that you are not mafia. And what did you do..... Your very next post was about how when you get lynched and flip blue, solohan and strong should be lynched.
That kind of post isn't productive. It doesn't get us any closer to figuring out whether or not you are scum.
On April 03 2012 06:10 HiroPro wrote: Before you claimed cop, you posted reads based on what people posted and acted like.
Now? Everything's "Hey guys, I'm cop, therefore these individuals are suspicious."
Which of these behaviors do you think helps town more?
On April 03 2012 06:17 HiroPro wrote:The only people who know whether or not this is true are yourself and mafia.
On April 04 2012 07:58 HiroPro wrote:Kohbee - On the first day of posting Marvel pressed you for your reads on town and you replied Show nested quote +There is no reason to post this. It will provide a kill list to scum. I would rather post this at the end of night deadline. Is there a reason that you never posted anything like this at the end of first night?
Because of this, I don't see Hiro as Kohbee's scumbuddy.
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Cmon guys, only 7 hours until end of Day, need ppl like KB, muffins, Solohan posting asap.
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Right now I think we are all so distracted by shiny objects that we can't really nicely match scum buddies.
And Kohbee, I got my opinion on you in the thread long before you started smashing on me, just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them mafia. But being a giant distraction helps mafia.
You have essentially been a giant distration for the majority of the game, making it impossible to get true reads on anyone. I know. I am reiterating this, and you have tampered down some since you were asked, but please remember that when you go after someone in a rude way they will have a visceral reaction that makes it hard for people to read properly. If you need to go after people, please just use me as a punching bag. Treat the others civilly and respect as you have been doing since I called you out for it and it will be much easier to get true reads on people.
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Sorry marv for posting late, had some flight problems (windshield crack, yay) so I didn't have time to type up anything, which takes forever on my phone anyway.
I am keeping my vote as it stands.
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I will up in the air in about an hour, and I do not know if I will have wifi. (Switched to flight southwest 135 after the windshield issue, connecting with flight 343 to vegas for those that demand a crazy alibi, I am a semi public figure so my flight arrivals and stuff isn't exactly secret)
I will check in when I land both times and will try to be active during the layover and before the first take off. I only post this because I have been accused of dodging questions while working.
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You both have posted and I accept both of your reasons (while vehemently disagreeing with them).
A final note to omnom, the distraction is the people talking about me and making (insert aggressive phrasing for bad) cases against me. If I was really disrespecting people I would have been warned by the mods like fourface was. You all have created the distraction under my name. This is forum mafia, and if you expect everyone to be all civil with one another you are in for a rude awakening. If you think this thread was madness I advise you to read literally any other game, this game looks like a sun shower compared to everything else.
The other thing about me being "distracting" that I find hysterical, is that I am distracting for posting my scum reads and pushing them. Sorry for playing mafia and distracting you all from your talks of mods scum slipping and alligators killing people.
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btw marvel I would love to see the "various OMGUS" I used.
Also, since when is attacking your scum reads a scum thing to do? oh right... it isn't.
(this isn't OMGUS, this OMGyourcaseandreasoningsucks)
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After reading everyone's thoughts about Kohbee, I have to say he still doesn't look that scummy to me. I am still in favor of a lynch against Solohan50, especially since Kohbee really took our advice to heart and is now posting regularly and with some thought behind his statements. He still hasn't confirmed himself town through his actions, but I have the feeling he's getting there. Solohan50 on the other hand has again posted once solely to defend against Kohbee's and my accusation and has been missing since. I'll say it again: If he's not scum, him getting lynched is absolutely no loss to town with his behaviour.
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On April 05 2012 02:43 KharadBanar wrote: After reading everyone's thoughts about Kohbee, I have to say he still doesn't look that scummy to me. I am still in favor of a lynch against Solohan50, especially since Kohbee really took our advice to heart and is now posting regularly and with some thought behind his statements. He still hasn't confirmed himself town through his actions, but I have the feeling he's getting there. Solohan50 on the other hand has again posted once solely to defend against Kohbee's and my accusation and has been missing since. I'll say it again: If he's not scum, him getting lynched is absolutely no loss to town with his behaviour.
With only one mislynch left until LYLO, we can't afford to think like that.
Solohan's posting style rings true for me with his claim about his motivations. When you look at his account, he only has 11 posts and they're all on this thread. It seems likely that he's someone who got brought in to TL by a friend to play a mafia game, so it also makes sense that he would get kind of jaded when that friend gets lynched as collateral damage day 1 to a fight between the two most prolific posters.
That said - I just reread his brief filter again, and something seemed kind of off to me. Specifically, his use of "kohbee and fourface fought and now fourface is dead" as evidence against kohbee. This could be true, but if kohbee is not mafia then the mafia could have chosen to kill kohbee as part of a frameup.
I still think kohbee is mafia, but I'm starting to see the logic behind saying "if kohbee flips blue then solohon is a suspect."
However, I continue to see many other people as also suspicious.
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I probably should've done this on my last post, but ##Vote: Kohbee. At this point, it's either myself or Kohbee that are getting lynched today, and everyone knows where I stand. If Kohbee gets lynched and flips green/blue, then it's my nuts on the chopping block, most likely followed by marvellosity. If Kohbee flips red, then I think HiroPro is the next likely candidate. He's been relatively consistent in voting for me, he helped bandwagon Therapist at the end of Day 1, and seems to be defending Kohbee against my attacks. It's not an ironclad, bulletproof case, but that's what I think.
With that said, carry on gentlemen. The next few hours should be interesting. If you do decide to lynch me, make sure the noose is an extra large one; my head is fairly large.
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On April 05 2012 02:56 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:43 KharadBanar wrote: After reading everyone's thoughts about Kohbee, I have to say he still doesn't look that scummy to me. I am still in favor of a lynch against Solohan50, especially since Kohbee really took our advice to heart and is now posting regularly and with some thought behind his statements. He still hasn't confirmed himself town through his actions, but I have the feeling he's getting there. Solohan50 on the other hand has again posted once solely to defend against Kohbee's and my accusation and has been missing since. I'll say it again: If he's not scum, him getting lynched is absolutely no loss to town with his behaviour. With only one mislynch left until LYLO, we can't afford to think like that.
This... I was reading the Sum of all Fears thread (or maybe one of its QTs) and wiser players than me basically said that a bad townie is still a townie. It was pointed out that ultimately Mafia is a numbers game, and what is needed for victory is kill mafia and keep townies.
If Solohan is not town it IS a loss, we are down one more team-member, plus we'd get much less info from his death than Kohbee's death.
Kohbee is still scum. If town wants to win this game, they need to be voting with me.
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Never mind... im a little late...
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On April 05 2012 03:27 Kazahk wrote: /in and this is my first time playing mafia on a thread xD best. post. ever. (ok back to silence)
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On April 05 2012 03:27 Kazahk wrote: /in and this is my first time playing mafia on a thread xD
Hey bud, this is a game in progress. You'll want to check another game that hasn't started yet.
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Day 2 Current Vote Count
Kohbee (4): omnomMuffins, marvellosity, strongandbig, Solohan50
Solohan50 (3): KharadBanar, Kohbee, HiroPro
Everyone is currently voting. Day 2 Voting ends at Thursday, Apr 05 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), which is in slightly less than 5 hours.
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It's Kohbee (4) and Solohan50 (3). You swapped the two.
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I am sad. I am sad because town will soon be in LYLO. I am sad because there are townies that honestly believe that scum team member would take a 50/50 shot on blue claiming day 1. I am sad because this will be a learning experience for the 2 (maybe 3) of you voting me instead of Solohan. I am sad because discussion has completely died, which is also an incredibly bad sign of things to come. I am sad that I can only leave you guys with 1 sure fire scum and that I (and the rest of town) will no longer have a mislynch because of lynching a townie currently. I am mostly sad because town is lynching its most active member, who was more than willing to promote discussion and be completely transparent with all of his reads and actions.
When I flip blue. Solohan is scum. I am sure of this. You need to lynch him first.
After this my strongest guess is Marvel, but in all honesty it could be strong and it could even be hiropro (although if its him you might as well all quit now, he's played some fantastic scum). I wish I could be more conclusive and leave you with a more clear map.
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Uh oh. Can't back down now though :x
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Day 2 Final Vote Count
Kohbee (4): omnomMuffins, marvellosity, strongandbig, Solohan50
Solohan50 (3): KharadBanar, Kohbee, HiroPro
Night 2
Kohbee, the Town Sane Cop has been lynched!
Night 2 has begun! Please send in your actions to both Radfield and Cephiro. Night ends in 24 hours, on Friday, Apr 06 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry for the lack of pictures and story today, I'll add them in later and make sure I have one tomorrow.
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Well, that was a disappointment...
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Well shit. I don't like being wrong
Is the case on Solohan so strong that all you guys voted for him and Kohbee is totally convinced he's scum? What am I missing? Why is it him?
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EBWOP: I get the 'why', in that he's been quite lurky and has been focused on Kohbee the whole time, but why is that such a big tell compared to anything else?
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What a weird fucking situation.
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I insist that Kohbee's play made no sense to me.
However, it obviously made sense to other people, so maybe I'm wrong. Could be either way, and since he's not here to defend himself I'm gonna stop dissing on him.
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Holy crap, I was not expecting this turn of events. I was so sure that Kohbee was mafia, just like so many other people. This definitely gives us a lot of information, though I certainly dislike the fact that it heavily implicates me. Fuck my life...
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marvellosity, since you asked I'll elaborate a bit on why Kohbee and I had such a strong suspicion of Solohan50 (should have posted this before lynch but oh well): If you read his filter, you'll see:
- the /in
- a fluff post at the start of the game
- an explanation on why he didn't post up to that point
- four posts about why he thinks Kohbee is scum (late Day 1, three of them during the Great Voting Craze™)
- One (1) post of analysis, which seems okay and contains his opinion on Kohbee
- A post of defense where he explains his Kohbee read and admits to being single-minded (at least that's something)
- Fluff discussing the weather in Vegas (to be fair, omnomMuffins asked him)
- His eventual vote on Kohbee
- A reply to an outsider asking to join and failing. Note that this comes one minute after the post he's replying to which indicates some heavy lurking on Solohan50's part (The chances he incidentally refreshed just at the right time are pretty slim)
Note that 100% of the Game Content posts are in some way or other about Kohbee and he didn't even seem to try to focus on other people, apologizing with "The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now." and not following it up with anything.
strongandbig, I'll answer your question in due time (You'll see why, bear with me).
Solohan50, I think you had enough chances to explain yourself and I'm now pretty set in my opinion. I am however listening to everything you say, if only to get more scum tells. But if you manage to get REALLY convincing (i.e. it's nigh on impossible) perhaps you can sway my vote tomorrow.
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On April 05 2012 09:07 marvellosity wrote: Well shit. I don't like being wrong
Is the case on Solohan so strong that all you guys voted for him and Kohbee is totally convinced he's scum? What am I missing? Why is it him?
Look at solohan's filter. There is almost nothing of value in there except one incredibly illogical case against Kohbee (based almost entirely upon Kohbee "arguing" with Therapist and FourFace).
On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie. When that failed, he roleclaimed and bandwagoned a townie right at the end of the day. On top of that, the townie he lynched was one of the most vocal anti-Kohbee players in the thread short of FourFace. This seems like too big of a string of coincidences for me, which is why my vote stayed where it was, and which is why we ended up lynching a fellow townie instead of the real scum.
This post is a complete misrepresentation of the first day and it makes no sense who solohan is refering to as "a townie", because it's defininitely not the same person throughout.
His other "reads" have all been blindingly obvious or wishy-washy.
And now that we know that Kohbee is cop, solohan is pretty much confirmed scum.
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EBWOP I read strongandbig's "It obviously made sense to other people so maybe I'm wrong" as a question, so that's what I'm referring to in my post.
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Which means I'm going to explain my town read on him later on (there's a reason for this, trust me guys :O)
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On April 05 2012 09:50 KharadBanar wrote: Which means I'm going to explain my town read on him later on (there's a reason for this, trust me guys :O)
If it has to do with your reads on other players who are still alive, then I may share the same interpretation, but be relating it to Kohbee's situation in a different way from you. I think I may know what you're referring to, though.
Anyway, what I'd like to bring people's attention to are the following posts:
From Marvellosity:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: Sigh. You're so aggressive. You mentioned him in a couple of other posts too, looking at your filter.
You've pointed fingers at almost everybody in the game. Almost your whole filter reads to me as creating a bad town atmosphere (various OMGUS, attacks, etc). You've sown confusion where there didn't have to be any, pointed fingers, and with your arguments with Fourface and omnom totally derailed town discussion. You roleclaimed blue in a terrible fashion for town; this could be scummy play or bad townie play, but together with the rest of your posts clearly leans towards a desperate scum move.
The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me).
Of secondary consideration here is the large amount of information we get from a Kohbee lynch. As Fourface handily pointed out earlier, we can already eliminate several Kohbee + someone else combinations. If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee
From solohan50:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 10:47 Solohan50 wrote: KB, since you're the second person to say that my case against Kohbee doesn't make sense, I'll try rephrasing it to see if it helps get my point across. If not, then perhaps I'm incorrect and need to rethink my position. The reasons I think that Kohbee is the most logical Mafia pick are the following:
- He was the #1 suspect on Day 1 (he was up two votes, 4-2, until the roleclaim). - One of his loud critics, Therapist, was mis-lynched because of the last minute roleclaim. Since Therapist was the second choice for the Day 1 lynch (behind Kohbee), the roleclaim was a good way to spread confusion and get the second choice lynched. - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now. I've posted what I've gleaned from other players, but mostly I've just been able to find people that I'm relatively certain are town (like KB). I'm also well aware that my single-mindedness may come around and bite me. If I was worried about that, I would've jumped on the Therapist bandwagon like everyone else, especially when it was clear that Kohbee was going to live. I even reaffirmed my choice despite the risk near the end of the vote, because I believe that Kohbee has the strongest chance of being Mafia.
Obviously my reads have been a bit screwy this game. I think that I was expecting other players to play in a certain style, and clearly they weren't.
However, my strongest remaining read comes from my gut: it's no coincidence that these two posts both make the argument that fourface's death was because he was in a fight with Kohbee. (They're also pretty long posts by people who don't make very long posts very often).
I know we can't vote at night, but if we could, I would be voting for solohan50.
Maybe I'm posting this now in case I get killed; or maybe I don't believe what I'm saying at all, and I'm posting something I think is wrong to trick mafia into not killing me. You decide.
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On April 05 2012 10:25 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:50 KharadBanar wrote: Which means I'm going to explain my town read on him later on (there's a reason for this, trust me guys :O) If it has to do with your reads on other players who are still alive, then I may share the same interpretation, but be relating it to Kohbee's situation in a different way from you. I think I may know what you're referring to, though. Anyway, what I'd like to bring people's attention to are the following posts: From Marvellosity: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: Sigh. You're so aggressive. You mentioned him in a couple of other posts too, looking at your filter.
You've pointed fingers at almost everybody in the game. Almost your whole filter reads to me as creating a bad town atmosphere (various OMGUS, attacks, etc). You've sown confusion where there didn't have to be any, pointed fingers, and with your arguments with Fourface and omnom totally derailed town discussion. You roleclaimed blue in a terrible fashion for town; this could be scummy play or bad townie play, but together with the rest of your posts clearly leans towards a desperate scum move.
The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me).
Of secondary consideration here is the large amount of information we get from a Kohbee lynch. As Fourface handily pointed out earlier, we can already eliminate several Kohbee + someone else combinations. If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee From solohan50: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 10:47 Solohan50 wrote: KB, since you're the second person to say that my case against Kohbee doesn't make sense, I'll try rephrasing it to see if it helps get my point across. If not, then perhaps I'm incorrect and need to rethink my position. The reasons I think that Kohbee is the most logical Mafia pick are the following:
- He was the #1 suspect on Day 1 (he was up two votes, 4-2, until the roleclaim). - One of his loud critics, Therapist, was mis-lynched because of the last minute roleclaim. Since Therapist was the second choice for the Day 1 lynch (behind Kohbee), the roleclaim was a good way to spread confusion and get the second choice lynched. - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now. I've posted what I've gleaned from other players, but mostly I've just been able to find people that I'm relatively certain are town (like KB). I'm also well aware that my single-mindedness may come around and bite me. If I was worried about that, I would've jumped on the Therapist bandwagon like everyone else, especially when it was clear that Kohbee was going to live. I even reaffirmed my choice despite the risk near the end of the vote, because I believe that Kohbee has the strongest chance of being Mafia. Obviously my reads have been a bit screwy this game. I think that I was expecting other players to play in a certain style, and clearly they weren't. However, my strongest remaining read comes from my gut: it's no coincidence that these two posts both make the argument that fourface's death was because he was in a fight with Kohbee. (They're also pretty long posts by people who don't make very long posts very often). I know we can't vote at night, but if we could, I would be voting for solohan50. Maybe I'm posting this now in case I get killed; or maybe I don't believe what I'm saying at all, and I'm posting something I think is wrong to trick mafia into not killing me. You decide. Also, the two persons you mentioned were the people Kohbee kept on his personal scum list, if you remember that. Your gut feeling works quite like that of our detective, which I like. I definitely second your thoughts on who's mafia at this point.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 05 2012 09:45 KharadBanar wrote:marvellosity, since you asked I'll elaborate a bit on why Kohbee and I had such a strong suspicion of Solohan50 (should have posted this before lynch but oh well): If you read his filter, you'll see: - the /in
- a fluff post at the start of the game
- an explanation on why he didn't post up to that point
- four posts about why he thinks Kohbee is scum (late Day 1, three of them during the Great Voting Craze™)
- One (1) post of analysis, which seems okay and contains his opinion on Kohbee
- A post of defense where he explains his Kohbee read and admits to being single-minded (at least that's something)
- Fluff discussing the weather in Vegas (to be fair, omnomMuffins asked him)
- His eventual vote on Kohbee
- A reply to an outsider asking to join and failing. Note that this comes one minute after the post he's replying to which indicates some heavy lurking on Solohan50's part (The chances he incidentally refreshed just at the right time are pretty slim)
Note that 100% of the Game Content posts are in some way or other about Kohbee and he didn't even seem to try to focus on other people, apologizing with "The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now." and not following it up with anything. Solohan50, I think you had enough chances to explain yourself and I'm now pretty set in my opinion. I am however listening to everything you say, if only to get more scum tells. But if you manage to get REALLY convincing (i.e. it's nigh on impossible) perhaps you can sway my vote tomorrow.
You see, this is why I'm both upset and angry about how this lynch went down. Why couldn't you have presented a case like this before? A good list of points followed by reasoning. All I had from you or Hiro was (paraphrasing) "I think Kohbee's got better", "I'm not convinced Kohbee is scum", "Solohan is lurky and has tunneled on Kohbee". How is that meant to convince anyone?
And then Kohbee's post before he died was the most townie thing I saw from him all game, but of course it was too late, so I wish he'd just defended himself differently/better.
ANYWAY, now that I've vented a little bit, town has its solution. Everyone in town needs to make sure they're talking, and they're making their points clearly. Town can still win this, but only if every townie member is active, makes reads, and tries to flush out scum.
I'm gonna have to rehash and reread everything in this thread, because I think I was viewing everything and everyone with the conviction that Kohbee was scum. So, expect some reads and conversation from me a bit later.
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Ugh, just noticed a problem with my argument in my last post.
After KB, marvellosity was the second person to jump on the "lunch a lurker" bandwagon against solohan.
This could have been a distancing gambit, but it does throw a wrench into the analysis. What we have to decide is, would marvellosity have believed that there was a realistic chance for solohan to get lynched day 1 for lurking? (Assume for now that if solohan is scum, he was in communication with his buddy despite being afk. Maybe with a smartphone. I think that if one scum actually thought the other scum wasn't going to post that day, he probably wouldn't try to start a lurker lynch bandwagon on him.) Depending on how risky of a move it would have seemed, we can maybe figure out the chance that one scum would join that incipient bandwagon on another.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 05 2012 23:18 strongandbig wrote: Ugh, just noticed a problem with my argument in my last post.
After KB, marvellosity was the second person to jump on the "lunch a lurker" bandwagon against solohan.
This could have been a distancing gambit, but it does throw a wrench into the analysis. What we have to decide is, would marvellosity have believed that there was a realistic chance for solohan to get lynched day 1 for lurking? (Assume for now that if solohan is scum, he was in communication with his buddy despite being afk. Maybe with a smartphone. I think that if one scum actually thought the other scum wasn't going to post that day, he probably wouldn't try to start a lurker lynch bandwagon on him.) Depending on how risky of a move it would have seemed, we can maybe figure out the chance that one scum would join that incipient bandwagon on another.
I smiled at the smartphone comment
As you're probably aware, I could have brought up the fact I voted Solohan on any of the last few pages, but I didn't see much point in doing so due to the natural reaction of the bit I bolded.
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I am not really comfortable making any reads until the night is over at this point.
We have no idea how anyone will interact without having the distractions in the game, and the way people react when forced to talk without them will be interesting.
I am not so sure that we can jump to the "lynch a lurker" as a mafia tactic, as the people that started it are now confirmed town, and on top of that, this is a newbie game making it so they could just have been like, okay that makes sense.
I am sad that Kohbee actually was the cop, especially since he played so belligerently that he couldn't get anyone to trust or believe him, including myself. But again, this is a newbie game so everyone is still learning how to act.
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On April 05 2012 23:18 strongandbig wrote: Ugh, just noticed a problem with my argument in my last post.
After KB, marvellosity was the second person to jump on the "lunch a lurker" bandwagon against solohan.
This could have been a distancing gambit, but it does throw a wrench into the analysis. What we have to decide is, would marvellosity have believed that there was a realistic chance for solohan to get lynched day 1 for lurking? (Assume for now that if solohan is scum, he was in communication with his buddy despite being afk. Maybe with a smartphone. I think that if one scum actually thought the other scum wasn't going to post that day, he probably wouldn't try to start a lurker lynch bandwagon on him.) Depending on how risky of a move it would have seemed, we can maybe figure out the chance that one scum would join that incipient bandwagon on another.
Looking at the votes from the first day, marvel withdraws his vote a little later before anyone else votes on solohan. I don't think this clears marvel in any way.
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A WILD ROLECLAIM APPEARS!
To preface the following epic wall of text, let me explain why I'm doing this. I believe scum wants to kill me tonight because I'm so high on everyone's list of town reads, so I'll get out every bit of information I can before the day post, because I have secret thoughts that I left unbeknownst to town for my own good. HOWEVER, if they're not killing me right now they will be after reading this so I'm saving myself by posting this when they probably have no time left to respond (if I would leave them time to respond I could as well have committed ##Suicide). I will be using the maximum amount of formatting available to me to get my point across in this post, because I have no reason to assume I'm going to live to explain myself any further. Also, if I live through this against all expectations, I think this post should confirm myself town because constructing a cover story that epic is an effort scum wouldn't be making at this point. I will also be using parentheses in the mathematical sense to group my logical statements together sometimes. + Show Spoiler [For strongandbig] +On April 05 2012 09:21 strongandbig wrote: I insist that Kohbee's play made no sense to me.
However, it obviously made sense to other people, so maybe I'm wrong. Could be either way, and since he's not here to defend himself I'm gonna stop dissing on him. This is the point where I'm explaining my town read on Kohbee that I promised earlier. It should also be immediately apparent why I was holding this back.
So without further ado, my claim:
+ Show Spoiler +
Things I did
Night 1: I jail Kohbee. If Kohbee's claim is real: I protect him from any night kill scum might throw at him; the roleblock is unimportant because if scum don't kill him that night they roleblock him anyway. I knew of the very real possibility of scum targeting someone else, but at the time I deemed Kohbee the most probable target. If Kohbee's claim is fake: I have now a 50% chance of roleblocking the Goon meaning no kill happening that night UNLESS I get roleblocked too (basically a 1 in 6 chance because scum doesn't know where to shoot) and 50% chance of roleblocking the Roleblocker, in which case Xzibit comes in and throws his catch phrase around but nothing else really happens. + Show Spoiler [For the meme impaired] +
Position after Night 1: FourFace died. Kohbee claims to be roleblocked. This means I have confirmation that the Goon had indeed succeeded in killing his victim that night. To me, that means that Kohbee is less likely scum because if he were scum that means there's 50% chance of him being the Goon and then an 83% chance of the roleblocker not targeting me correctly and my block actually succeeding, meaning that by pure probabilistic analysis Kohbee has 50%*83%=42% less chance of being mafia than anyone else, which is a slight town tell. (If you don't believe that, triple check your math and then tell me, I'm pretty sure of that calculation being correct) Knowing that Kohbee is 40% less probable to be scum than everyone else tells me to, I proceed to first make him stop his flame warring, then I concentrate on analysing Solohan50's behaviour which I do not feel the need of elaborating too much because I posted lengthily in the thread about it. Kohbee saying that he's roleblocked makes no difference, he had to say it. Kohbee needed to say it because he otherwise had to come up with some detective result, Kohbee needed to say it because he was actually most likely double roleblocked, once by mafia and once by me while protecting him.
Night 2: This is where the fun part begins because I have no idea what the results of it will be: I am currently jailing Solohan50. So here I am repeating the math and logic from above, but with different repercussions than last time: If Solohan50 is scum: 50% that he is Roleblocker, 50% that he is Goon; of those 50% the Roleblocker has 3/4 or 75% chance of missing me and my roleblocking actually goes through, so overall 3/8 or 37,5% chance of me accomplishing something with my action. If I don't, nothing will happen and the kill will go through (most likely on me). If Solohan50 is town: My action does nothing and we are royally screwed because we can't distinguish that from the case that he is the Roleblocker / that he is the Goon and the Roleblocker got me. The night kill goes through and I am again most likely dead.
Position after Night 2 (extrapolated): Possibility 1: Nobody gets killed. This is the best situation for us because we know for sure that Solohan50 is the goon (or scum choose to nokill, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever for them) and we can lynch him assuming you are trusting my claim (I'm hoping you are). Possibility 2: I get killed. You have now absolute confirmation from my flip to trust what I have said about my role, reads and actions, so don't waste it; barring any other scumslips that might yet happen it's probably best to lynch Solohan50 in this situation. Possibility 3: Someone else than me gets killed. I don't deem this scenario particularly likely but I'm listing it here anyway. In this case, I'm open for Day 3 discussion (Maybe not in full swing because I'm celebrating easter with my family, but I'll manage to participate in the game nonetheless).
My thoughts on other people
HiroPro As I once said (+ Show Spoiler [another wall of text] +On April 04 2012 09:50 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:53 Kohbee wrote: Who I would like to hear from
KB - opinions on solohan, hiropro and marvel
Now that's getting somewhere. Nice to see you actually putting some effort into coordinating people My opinions for you, sir:I honestly haven't thought all that much about HiroPro yet, but after some reading he sounds like someone who puts a good amount of quality control into his posts and only contributes if there is something sensible/new to say, which I at times missed among other participants of this game, but his self-limitation goes not too far into the luking direction, so there's definitely some town vibes in there. Also appreciates some of my posting, but that's no towntell but a personal matter On marvellosity I have a null read overall, the reason for this being that he doesn't behave like obvious scum (obvious scum being lurking, posting bad reads etc.) but not like obvious town either. If he happens to be scum, my gut instinct would suspect his buddy to be you, because he basically saved you in the Great Voting Craze™ by putting Therapist up one vote. This doesn't make him scum automatically though because I had basically exactly the same thought processes up to this point, believing Therapist to be one of the most scummy persons around. (And I'm a townie, right? ) My view on Solohan50 has not changed since the last time I wrote about it. Reading his filter (which is easy, since it's the shortest of all) I found his case on you less than compelling to say the least (It centers on your vote cast in the very beginning of the game). Add to that the fact that he refused to take the vote off of you in the Great Voting Craze™ and it could well be that there's a scum member wanting to finish a blue somewhere in there. Either that, or he's a very zealous townie which could backfire in other lynch votes later on. The only case I'm really excluding from my considerations there is that you are both scum, because he could have easily changed his vote around during that mess and therefore made sure to get a townie with it. This was however worked out by FourFace before, I just now caught that while re-reading the thread. Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 21:57 FourFace wrote: 7-10 minutes before the lynch my brain worked out this genuinely true piece of information judging by the constellation of the votes:
Kohbee&Solohan50 Kohbee&strongandbig Kohbee&Therapist
.. can't possibly be THE scumpair.
This means that you actually have a slight town read in my book, believe it or not. However, nothing is confirmed just yet and all my opinions are subject to change if someone objects in an eloquent and non-scummy manner. tl;dr: ##Vote: Solohan50P.S.After finishing up this tremendous wall of text, I would invite omnomMuffins along to join our discussion as it finally has gotten the chance to get a little more civilised and the chance to get hit by randomly flying accusations has slightly lowered. ), a town read. His argumentation is consistent and he has the sensibility to only post when he's actually contributing. Also, he was one of the players who saw Kohbee for what he was from the start.
strongandbig I never saw anything flawed within your argumentations, I have however sometimes disagreed with your priorities, e.g. lynching Kohbee on Day 2 over Solohan50. However, in that case you didn't have the information I had and it's completely understandable for me that you acted how you acted. Overall, quite town to me.
omnomMuffins I never had an overly strong read on him, sometimes he didn't make as much sense as I would have hoped (the Eternal Flame Wars Extended Edition) but he did give an acceptable apology and getting upset on a forum isn't exactly what I would call scummy. Read evaluation: Town-ish.
marvellosity My gut instinct was all over the place on him at different times. The only noteworthy "read" I'm getting is not from marvellosity's filter, but rather from Kohbee (+ Show Spoiler [here] +On April 04 2012 22:09 Kohbee wrote:Sleep over, Deep breath, Logic time. Let’s go. Strong and OmnomI would like for both of you to reconsider your vote on me instead of Solohan50. Strong, I read your case on me and responded to it. I will reiterate some key points that I believe refute what you think are scum tells. Me telling therapist that I wouldn't talk to him was not me stifling discussion, I simply wanted Hiropro to answer for himself. Also, you act like I wanted a bandwagon on Hiropro but I never told anyone to vote for him or even asked others opinions on him. I presented a 1 sentence case based on his 2 sentences in the thread and waited for a response. Your second point basically boils down to you believing that a cop would not play the way I have. I don't know how many games of forum mafia you have played, but you will quickly find out that you can never depend on people to play as you would (in any role) and you can almost never depend on them to play "right". Omnom, your vote on me is (imo) mostly based off the "fight" we had in the thread for a few hours/days. I think we both got emotionally heated and ended up voting for one another based off this. I ask you to not make the same mistake twice (I call it a mistake because I know I am town) by voting for 2 townies based off you being mad at them for being assholes. I know that you think I am annoying and abrasive, tbh I don't care that you think that. I will answer any direct questions from now on but I will no longer post as I have previously as I don't need reactions anymore, I have found the scum team. However, if you vote for solohan, regardless of outcome it will completely shut me up. If he flips town, I will take responsibility, post my apologies, and take my impending lynch. When he flips scum, I will high five myself, then vote marvel tomorrow without any argumentation.
I believe that you two and Hiropro and KB are our remaining town. If you do not see the logic in KB's and my own case against Solohan today I ask that you please believe me and him upon my flip. Solohan is scum. Marvel is scum. Omnom, I wanted to lynch you and I saw you townslip hard. This post + Show Spoiler + On April 03 2012 09:47 omnomMuffins wrote: EBWOP: Wait, we don't have the confirmed set? I thought it was 2 mafia, one godfather, the other role blocker, and a cop and a medic?
Time to read the OP more closely. seems genuine. I overlooked this when I thought you were scum because I was being stupid and not as logical as I should have been. Strong has been open with everything he has done. He doesn't seem to have any hidden motive and is more than willing to share his opinions. He does this is a genuine manner and there doesn't seem to be any hesitation or contradiction in his play. If I do get lynched and when I flip Sane Cop, this should immediately confirm Hiropro and KB as town. To argue otherwise is stupid and illogical. Hey Kohbee, why is Marvel also scum?Well thats pretty simple. Marvel's day 1 was bad (as he admitted) but he covered it by saving a blue to lynch a townie. The funny thing about Marvel's play is that he is literally never willing to accept responsibility for anything he does. Every decision he makes is laced with an out for him + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: EBWOP: I still think Therapist. is townie, but I think the chance he's mafia is a bit higher right now than Kohbee. On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
##Vote: Kohbee In this post he literally sets up the scum's night actions + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 09:16 marvellosity wrote: Bah.
Ok let's think. Therapist is townie, and if Kohbee is telling the truth, he is blue cop. If that is the case, the clear play for mafia is to hit Kohbee. Mafia could go for the double bluff and not hit Kohbee, but if he's the cop it's way too risky because he could find out their alignment.
If Kohbee is lying, then he's mafia. And if Kohbee is mafia, then I think we can say without doubt he won't be killing himself.
So we should know at the end of the night what is what. and then continues with the same WIFOM argument the next day. He also says that he has 2 scum reads, but only posts reads on me. + Show Spoiler + On April 03 2012 23:24 marvellosity wrote: At the moment, I have two possible scum reads, one expected, one perhaps not - but I'd like to start with Kohbee, the expected. (if you read his filter you can see he has only posted about me since this post). This was almost 24 hours ago and still no second read. This is a HUGE scum tell to promise something and then not come through with it. He is also chainsaw defending Solohan50 like the life of his game was on the line. He just softly OMGUS'd Hiropro with a completely vague argument for why he is voting the way he is. + Show Spoiler +If I don't see either Strong or Omnom respond to this I will repost on the next page and so on until they do ) and strongandbig (+ Show Spoiler [here] +On April 05 2012 10:25 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:50 KharadBanar wrote: Which means I'm going to explain my town read on him later on (there's a reason for this, trust me guys :O) If it has to do with your reads on other players who are still alive, then I may share the same interpretation, but be relating it to Kohbee's situation in a different way from you. I think I may know what you're referring to, though. Anyway, what I'd like to bring people's attention to are the following posts: From Marvellosity: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: Sigh. You're so aggressive. You mentioned him in a couple of other posts too, looking at your filter.
You've pointed fingers at almost everybody in the game. Almost your whole filter reads to me as creating a bad town atmosphere (various OMGUS, attacks, etc). You've sown confusion where there didn't have to be any, pointed fingers, and with your arguments with Fourface and omnom totally derailed town discussion. You roleclaimed blue in a terrible fashion for town; this could be scummy play or bad townie play, but together with the rest of your posts clearly leans towards a desperate scum move.
The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me).
Of secondary consideration here is the large amount of information we get from a Kohbee lynch. As Fourface handily pointed out earlier, we can already eliminate several Kohbee + someone else combinations. If/when Kohbee flips scum, we already have a big head start on scum #2. If Kohbee miraculously flips as blue cop, again the information is vast.
Kohbee is scum and people should vote for him.
##Vote: Kohbee From solohan50: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 10:47 Solohan50 wrote: KB, since you're the second person to say that my case against Kohbee doesn't make sense, I'll try rephrasing it to see if it helps get my point across. If not, then perhaps I'm incorrect and need to rethink my position. The reasons I think that Kohbee is the most logical Mafia pick are the following:
- He was the #1 suspect on Day 1 (he was up two votes, 4-2, until the roleclaim). - One of his loud critics, Therapist, was mis-lynched because of the last minute roleclaim. Since Therapist was the second choice for the Day 1 lynch (behind Kohbee), the roleclaim was a good way to spread confusion and get the second choice lynched. - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
The reason I seem to focus on Kohbee so much is that he's the only read that I really have right now. I've posted what I've gleaned from other players, but mostly I've just been able to find people that I'm relatively certain are town (like KB). I'm also well aware that my single-mindedness may come around and bite me. If I was worried about that, I would've jumped on the Therapist bandwagon like everyone else, especially when it was clear that Kohbee was going to live. I even reaffirmed my choice despite the risk near the end of the vote, because I believe that Kohbee has the strongest chance of being Mafia. Obviously my reads have been a bit screwy this game. I think that I was expecting other players to play in a certain style, and clearly they weren't. However, my strongest remaining read comes from my gut: it's no coincidence that these two posts both make the argument that fourface's death was because he was in a fight with Kohbee. (They're also pretty long posts by people who don't make very long posts very often). I know we can't vote at night, but if we could, I would be voting for solohan50. Maybe I'm posting this now in case I get killed; or maybe I don't believe what I'm saying at all, and I'm posting something I think is wrong to trick mafia into not killing me. You decide. ), who both recognized a certain behaviour from him.
This post was written during the first four hours of Night 2, 2:30 AM to 5:30 AM local time. If you stayed with me through this, props to you. This is me done for the night and chances are that I'm also done for the game with this. If so, give 'em hell town!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Day 3
The hunched figure sat in his desk, contemplating the ruddy steel key in front of him. For some, this key had no significance, no meaning. But for him it was life. Working nights as 'security' for the zoo was only a cover, one which allowed him to follow his true path. Incapacitate, Transport, Jail, Interrogate, Release... Contact the authorities if necessary. Sometimes it was for their own protection, sometimes not. Some would call it unjust, some would call it insane, but it got results.
KharadBanar stood from his desk and pocketed the key. Tonight would be different. Tonight KharadBanar knew his target, and knew what it meant to jail him for the night. When no new dead body turned up on the morrow, his theory would be proven and the killer revealed. From there on out the authorities could deal with it.
Gravel crunched underfoot as he passed through the zoo, but a sudden faint whoosh, and a sharp pain in his neck made his head turn, tazer at the ready. A silhouetted figure stood there, backlit by the light of a distance security lamp.
"I figured you'd search me out eventually" He said, " So I felt it prudent to search you out first"
KharadBanar started to respond, but his tongue felt thick and heavy in his mouth. As his hand brushed the dart at his neck and tugged it out, his knees gave way. The last thing he felt was being dragged across the gravel, and finally *splash*.... darkness.
KharadBanar, the Jailkeeper has been eaten by Sharks!
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day ends in 48 hours, at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) Saturday Night.
This is LYLO!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
gg KB, thanks for the post
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Lol, I know Radfield's post was written without seeing KB's, but in chronological order Radfield's post basically says Solohan is scum.
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Solohan is almost definitely scum. If you don't believe this, read Kharad's posts, read the post I made at night, read Kohbee's last alive post.
##Vote: Solohan50
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Thank you KB for such an amazing will.
The only problem I have with voting for Solohan now is that we know that he was jailed last night. This means that if he is mafia, that means that he is not a killer, and not the biggest threat out there.
Which means it is one of the rest of us.
Marvel, S&B, myself and HiroPro are the ones to be looking at today.
The safe vote is for Solohan, but if we want to get the killer, he is not the man.
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##side note, heading into the strip in a few minutes, will be able to post short notes and read while at IPL parties, but please don't expect anything long because my phone has a sucky keyboard and it pisses me off.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:23 omnomMuffins wrote: Thank you KB for such an amazing will.
The only problem I have with voting for Solohan now is that we know that he was jailed last night. This means that if he is mafia, that means that he is not a killer, and not the biggest threat out there.
Which means it is one of the rest of us.
Marvel, S&B, myself and HiroPro are the ones to be looking at today.
The safe vote is for Solohan, but if we want to get the killer, he is not the man.
I read the Q&A on this earlier because KB's post confused me as I thought either mafia could hit, but it's only the goon.
I don't know if it's what you're getting at, but if the goon is killed then the Roleblocker performs mafia kills instead.
I would like to say - we are not after the mafia killer. We are simply after mafia.
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Okay that took me totally by surprise. I thought KB was town but I actually thought someone else was the second blue.
That was some really fucking impressive foresight by KB. I did think he might get killed since people were saying he was town, but people have said that about myself, and hiropro as well.
So! I've had a few beers at the moment, so I won't be posting much analysis tonight. I also need to think some more about what this means for us as a town.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Current Vote Count
Solohan50(2) : Hiropro, strongandbig
Not Voting: Solohan50, Marvellosity, omnommuffins
Voting Ends in apprx 33 hours.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Ok. So it seems fairly clear that Solohan is getting lynched this Day cycle unless something very odd happens. So we should try to make our time as productive as possible.
A wise man said to me - a scum's aim is simply to appear as town, whereas a townie's aim is to scumhunt. Which of these takes more effort? Scumhunting. Taking that in mind, I'm left with looking at s&b, Hiro, and omnom. I have fairly strong town reads on s&b (if you are mafia, well played sir). So that leaves Hiro and omnom. I've read both their filters multiple times this afternoon, and I'm ready to take some action. With that in mind, I would like to put forward a case against HiroPro.
The gist of this case will be that Hiro has not attempted to scumhunt, NOR taken any firm stances.
On April 02 2012 03:22 HiroPro wrote:
Of omnomMuffins and marvellosity, omnomMuffins has contributed almost nothing, while marvellosity has identified a possible scumslip by strongandbig.
##Vote: omnomMuffins
First we have the vote for omnom, based on the fact he's lurking. Even though we know omnom had a reason to be lurking (it was given). I'd also like to point out omnom's filter is in fact twice as long as Hiro's.
Hiro then goes on to vote for Solohan and Therapist. in succession. Fair enough, it's Day 1. Let's see Hiro bust out some firm stances and opinions shall we?
On April 03 2012 05:43 HiroPro wrote:
Fourface - I don't like the mass claim idea. Scum can find out jailer/doctor, while town gains absolutely nothing, especially considering that we are not even sure of what roles exist.
Marvelosity, you said that you had no idea who to vote for. 1)I don't believe that at all. If you didn't know, there was no way you would have switched votes right when it mattered the most. What are your reads?
2)Omnomnom is scummy as hell, but I think everyone knows that. And nothing that Kohbee and solohan have said today has made any sense. Kohbee ignores what other people say, while it doesn't look like solohan represented anything that happened the first day correctly. 3)Both of them are possible scum (obviously only one of them can be scum for the reason that FourFace posted).
1) is probably just lack of thread reading, but I was unvoted at the time, it wasn't a switch. 2 and 3 are more interesting though. 2) Everyone knows omnom is scummy as hell? Because at the start of the game he posted little with due explanation and he voted for a disruptive Fourface? So far you made a ONE LINE case against omnom "illogical vote on fourface" and that's it. 3) Excellent! Both are possible scum. Let's cast suspicion in various directions without making any sort of case or taking any sort of stance. What do you THINK?
On April 04 2012 09:28 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: Hiro, could you please outline your case on omnom a little more? I find he has less negative points than Kohbee does. The biggest thing against omnom for me is that he seems to not care about actually looking for scum. The quotes are from omnom's posts arguing against FourFace and Kohbee.
Seems ironic. Looking at omnom's filter, at least he made a firm stance on Kohbee. He also made some sort of case on him (which Hiro has yet to do against anyone). Let's not forget guys, being WRONG on something is not a scumtrait. It's the motivation behind it we have to look at. Mafia have more information than town, remember, so it's easier for them not to be wrong.
None of Hiro's posts have had any real substance whatsoever.
Hiro has casted doubts upon almost everyone in the game, without ever making a case against someone or scumhunting.
Seems like scum.
Town? Discuss.
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Marv, ty for clarification on if the roleblocker could kill. I had only really played RL mafia with cards, so no roleblockers involved. If that is the case then
##vote: solohan50
For some reason my phone won't let me make it bold.
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Let me post a few thoughts now.
First, we should lynch solohan. If it were just me, then I wouldn't be 100% confident in my read of him as scummy. However, since Kohbee did flip blue and was so confident in his read, and since there are some pretty good arguments other than just "he feels scummy" for him being scum, I'm going to stick with that vote.
We need to get a successful lynch. If we do that, then after the night kill tonight it will be LYLO again at 2 town 1 mafia, but at least the remaining town will have one more night's worth of data to identify the last mafia.
The only thing that worries me is the Monty Hall problem. We know that solohan is not the mafia goon. This means that from a purely statistical point of view, he has only a 25% chance of being mafia whereas for the rest of us there is a 40% chance of being mafia. (I know this sounds like a paradox, but it's not. It's a classic high school math team problem, google monty hall paradox for more.)
However, I still think we should lynch him. Mafia isn't a game of hoping to get lucky; it's a game of making reads and educated guesses. It seems like our collective best educated guess is that solohan is mafia.
So my current thinking for who is the second mafia.
First, we have the question of the day 1 lynch. As I said waay back in the thread (it was in my "if kohbee flips town" analysis post), I don't think that mafia could give up the chance for a completely free lynch of someone who just claimed a blue role, especially on day 1. However, in my opinion that chance was only open to FourFace and Hiropro. Either of those two could have kept their vote on kohbee and allowed him to die, then claimed they were afk for the hour between his last-minute claim and the voting deadline. So I don't think that hiro is scum.
Additionally, on day 2 hiro voted for solohan instead of kohbee, which made it a 4-3 vote instead of a 5-2 vote. If we believe solohan is actually mafia, then this makes no sense - it would allow one last-minute switch to lynch the other mafia member instead of the claimed cop. So I agree with kohbee's last post, if solohan is mafia it doesn't make sense for hiropro to be the other mafia.
That said, I actually thought up until the death of KB that hiro was the second blue role. His play on day 1 in response to the accusation from kohbee seemed more passive than I would have expected from a vanilla townie. His posting hasn't been all that town-ey, as pointed out by marvellosity - hiro hasn't done much to scum hunt. However, his voting record is enough to clear him, IMO. As I've said before, I'm more comfortable at the moment analyzing actions rather than words.
So that leaves omnommuffins and marvellosity.
omnom's posts were pretty aggressive towards kohbee. However, they were no more aggressive than mine, and IMO they could easily be explained as coming from someone who had just had a hard day and then had to deal with the kohbee vs fourface flame war of death.
However, I find it a bit suspicious that omnom tried to get us to find and lynch the "mafia killer" instead of solohan. I feel like someone who's played so much IRL mafia would know that the mafia always get a kill, even if they have other roles. (Unless she's claiming that in her irl mafia games the mafia doctor or cop don't get to kill anyone if they're the only person left, which I would think would be a really odd rule for a game of mafia.) And also, it should be super-obvious that we need to make the clearest lynch no matter what, since this is LYLO; so anyone saying we shouldn't lynch the most probable mafia is pretty suspicious.
Marvellosity, on the other hand, has a couple of major points against him imo: first, his flip-floppy voting on day 1, and second, the multiple times he's tried to tell us how we should interpret the mafia's night kills. (Specifically, I'm referring here to the posts of mine and Kohbee's that were quoted by KB in his last will and testament.)
So for now I think that the most likely candidate for second mafia, assuming we decide to lynch solohan (which I I think we should) and that he flips red (which I think he will), would be marvellosity.
However, I'm not confident enough in that read to feel like I have the thing sewn up. Marvellosity posted his case against hiropro just above; I'd like to see a response to it from hiropro.
I'd also like to hear what everyone else thinks about who the mafia might be, and about what everyone has said so far.
Basically, we could just gamble on what we have and go for it, but more information would be better! Let's get our posting on, people!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 07 2012 07:30 strongandbig wrote:
First, we have the question of the day 1 lynch. As I said waay back in the thread (it was in my "if kohbee flips town" analysis post), I don't think that mafia could give up the chance for a completely free lynch of someone who just claimed a blue role, especially on day 1. However, in my opinion that chance was only open to FourFace and Hiropro. Either of those two could have kept their vote on kohbee and allowed him to die, then claimed they were afk for the hour between his last-minute claim and the voting deadline. So I don't think that hiro is scum.
You could at least be consistent with your argument. Kohbee was leading 4-2 when hiro moved his vote from solohan (who you agree is scum) to therapist - 4-3.
Then I, yes, me, cast my vote on therapist to make the vote equal at 4-4, before Fourface removed his kohbee vote to cast his vote on me to leave it at 4-3 to therapist.
So it was 4-3 to Kohbee with 10 minutes to the lynch when I voted. And I would vote for Therapist?
How does that line up with your completely freeblue lynch that scum wouldn't pass up?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: imo Hiro's vote staying on Solohan could simply have been clever. It seems to me fairly clear the 4 of us voting on Kohbee weren't changing our minds.
But yes, main point above, I pretty much DID have it in my hands to lynch Kohbee day 1.
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On April 07 2012 00:37 marvellosity wrote: Ok. So it seems fairly clear that Solohan is getting lynched this Day cycle unless something very odd happens. So we should try to make our time as productive as possible.
A wise man said to me - a scum's aim is simply to appear as town, whereas a townie's aim is to scumhunt. Which of these takes more effort? Scumhunting. Taking that in mind, I'm left with looking at s&b, Hiro, and omnom. I have fairly strong town reads on s&b (if you are mafia, well played sir). So that leaves Hiro and omnom. I've read both their filters multiple times this afternoon, and I'm ready to take some action. With that in mind, I would like to put forward a case against HiroPro.
The gist of this case will be that Hiro has not attempted to scumhunt, NOR taken any firm stances.
I posted my full reads during day 2. I specifically identified omnom and solohan as my mafia reads and gave my reasons why.
On April 07 2012 00:37 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:22 HiroPro wrote:
Of omnomMuffins and marvellosity, omnomMuffins has contributed almost nothing, while marvellosity has identified a possible scumslip by strongandbig.
##Vote: omnomMuffins First we have the vote for omnom, based on the fact he's lurking. Even though we know omnom had a reason to be lurking (it was given). I'd also like to point out omnom's filter is in fact twice as long as Hiro's.
Reread my full post. It was based on the fact that both of you had voted for FourFace - who appeared strongly town and was very vocal and attempted to lead - traits that make mafia want to get rid of him.
On April 07 2012 00:37 marvellosity wrote:Hiro then goes on to vote for Solohan and Therapist. in succession. Fair enough, it's Day 1. Let's see Hiro bust out some firm stances and opinions shall we? Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:43 HiroPro wrote:
Fourface - I don't like the mass claim idea. Scum can find out jailer/doctor, while town gains absolutely nothing, especially considering that we are not even sure of what roles exist.
Marvelosity, you said that you had no idea who to vote for. 1)I don't believe that at all. If you didn't know, there was no way you would have switched votes right when it mattered the most. What are your reads?
2)Omnomnom is scummy as hell, but I think everyone knows that. And nothing that Kohbee and solohan have said today has made any sense. Kohbee ignores what other people say, while it doesn't look like solohan represented anything that happened the first day correctly. 3)Both of them are possible scum (obviously only one of them can be scum for the reason that FourFace posted).
1) is probably just lack of thread reading, but I was unvoted at the time, it wasn't a switch. 2 and 3 are more interesting though. 2) Everyone knows omnom is scummy as hell? Because at the start of the game he posted little with due explanation and he voted for a disruptive Fourface? So far you made a ONE LINE case against omnom "illogical vote on fourface" and that's it. 3) Excellent! Both are possible scum. Let's cast suspicion in various directions without making any sort of case or taking any sort of stance. What do you THINK?
My stance was perfectly clear when I voted for solohan over Kohbee. Kohbee did not respond the way that a mafia would when I pressured him or when strong and yourself posted reads on him. And I had already become suspicious of the logic that solohan used to make his case. If you'll reread my posts in their entirety without taking little snippets from here and there you will see my logic.
On April 07 2012 00:37 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 09:28 HiroPro wrote:On April 04 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote: Hiro, could you please outline your case on omnom a little more? I find he has less negative points than Kohbee does. The biggest thing against omnom for me is that he seems to not care about actually looking for scum. The quotes are from omnom's posts arguing against FourFace and Kohbee. Seems ironic. Looking at omnom's filter, at least he made a firm stance on Kohbee. He also made some sort of case on him (which Hiro has yet to do against anyone). Let's not forget guys, being WRONG on something is not a scumtrait. It's the motivation behind it we have to look at. Mafia have more information than town, remember, so it's easier for them not to be wrong. None of Hiro's posts have had any real substance whatsoever. Hiro has casted doubts upon almost everyone in the game, without ever making a case against someone or scumhunting. Seems like scum. Town? Discuss.
As I've said before, omnom is mafia. When you leave aside the posts that promise to post later and talk about unrelated stuff, what you see is a meaningless argument with Kohbee, reads that ignore what is going on in the game and focus only on what omnom feels about the person personally, posts that appear clueless (not knowing the basic rules written out in the first post) in order to make us less suspicious, and a general disregard for what matters for the town (suggesting a lynch target other than solohan). Omnom is the 2nd mafia member.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Your biggest case against me for being mafia was being AFK during the first few days when I had posted that I wouldn't be on as much, and your second point is that I am being a newbie in a newbie mafia game.
I don't understand how those 2 points can be held against me, when this is cleary my first game, and that I have been busy with work and kept you guys updated the whole time.
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Oops sorry, was borrowing a computer here, that was me.
Anyway to extrapolate further, the point is that being wrong is not a mafia trait, especially since as town we don't know anything.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
omnom: gonna need a serious post from you at this point. I've levelled a case against Hiro and he's taken the time to dissect it and respond to it. At this point "I was an afk noob" and reiterating the point I made about wrong/mafia is meaningless.
Hiro: you voted for Solohan because "you didn't want mafia to control the vote". You said Kohbee is completely pro-town simply on the basis that he was talking, but that's not why you voted Solohan at the time.
Town, we still have a chance at winning this (and as far as I can see, town very rarely win newbie/mini games) if we can keep the discussion going.
First stop is omnom posting something containing serious discussion (whether at IPL or not - do you want town to win?)
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I have already made my serious post and got schooled on the rules. Whoever the second mafia is, I don't know.
I can't say anything that I haven't said to defend myself. I find no reason to post the same messege repeatedly in the thread. Add the mafia's kill tendencies into the game and anyone who leads the discussion is killed.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 07 2012 10:34 omnomMuffins wrote: I have already made my serious post and got schooled on the rules. Whoever the second mafia is, I don't know.
I can't say anything that I haven't said to defend myself. I find no reason to post the same messege repeatedly in the thread. Add the mafia's kill tendencies into the game and anyone who leads the discussion is killed.
Well that's no use, is it? You haven't said anything of note since the Kohbee lynch.
There's only a few of us left, so "errrr, I dunno" doesn't quite cut it at this point.
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So as far as I can tell, we have the following setup for the second mafia.
Hiropro says it's omnommuffins. I say it's probably marvellosity but I'm not sure. Marvellosity says it's hiropro. Omnommuffins who do you think the remaining mafia player is? It would be good to have your opinion. I've read through your posts in this thread since the Kohbee lynch, and I don't see anything from you on that.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:07 strongandbig wrote: So as far as I can tell, we have the following setup for the second mafia.
Hiropro says it's omnommuffins. I say it's probably marvellosity but I'm not sure. Marvellosity says it's hiropro. Omnommuffins who do you think the remaining mafia player is? It would be good to have your opinion. I've read through your posts in this thread since the Kohbee lynch, and I don't see anything from you on that.
Grats for totally ignoring my point on the voting on Day 1. I'm starting to think you're doing so wilfully.
In the meantime
##Vote: Solohan50
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On April 08 2012 04:56 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:07 strongandbig wrote: So as far as I can tell, we have the following setup for the second mafia.
Hiropro says it's omnommuffins. I say it's probably marvellosity but I'm not sure. Marvellosity says it's hiropro. Omnommuffins who do you think the remaining mafia player is? It would be good to have your opinion. I've read through your posts in this thread since the Kohbee lynch, and I don't see anything from you on that. Grats for totally ignoring my point on the voting on Day 1. I'm starting to think you're doing so wilfully. In the meantime ##Vote: Solohan50
When you voted for Therapist it was 3-3.
That's not the same kind of "free" lynch as I was talking about before.
What I meant was when someone could claim to not have read the roleclaim from kohbee.
You would have had to vote for kohbee after he roleclaimed.
Anyway my feeling is not only based on that.
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Okay wait that's wrong, it was 4-2
Anyway the point is that you still hadn't voted when kohbee claimed his role. I was talking about people who could safely claim to have not seen him claim.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
So what what your bloody point was?
The real point is that it was 4-3 (like I said, not 4-2, please PLEASE read my post) and I saved Kohbee. Who cares that people could safely claim bla bla, that's irrelevant.
Please tell me my MAFIA motivation for SAVING Kohbee from the vote Day 1 followed by going after him superhard during the next day. Please tell me why as Mafia, when Kohbee claims blue, I would not happily condemn him to the lynch with no fuss whatsoever. Your whole long post goes on about analysing ACTIONS, my actions were to NOT get the free blue lynch and then put my neck on the line by going after him hard the next day. Why would I do that? Makes no sense.
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My point is that you couldn't just do nothing. You had to either save him or not save him, thereby killing him. If you did the latter, it would have been obvious that you killed him after he claimed that he was the cop. If you did anything other than save him, it would have been suspicious.
When I say that people who turned down the "free lynch" are less suspicious, I mean people who didn't have to act. You had to act or else you would have been modkilled.
The mafia motivation is that it makes more sense for mafia to save the cop, thereby gaining town cred, and then roleblock him, than it does for mafia to publicly kill him after he made his roleclaim. The only time it makes sense for mafia to have him lynched after his roleclaim is if they can do it through inaction.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:10 strongandbig wrote: My point is that you couldn't just do nothing. You had to either save him or not save him, thereby killing him. If you did the latter, it would have been obvious that you killed him after he claimed that he was the cop. If you did anything other than save him, it would have been suspicious.
When I say that people who turned down the "free lynch" are less suspicious, I mean people who didn't have to act. You had to act or else you would have been modkilled.
The mafia motivation is that it makes more sense for mafia to save the cop, thereby gaining town cred, and then roleblock him, than it does for mafia to publicly kill him after he made his roleclaim. The only time it makes sense for mafia to have him lynched after his roleclaim is if they can do it through inaction.
Then why would I have then gone after Kohbee so hard the next day? It makes no sense. I could easily have voted for Kohbee the first day on the basis that his cop claim was a desperate mafia move (as many people have said in this thread).
As mafia then, I would save the cop (who everyone would have acknoweldged could be argued as mafia desperation) only to want to roleblock him and then go after him super-hard the next day?
Your entire arguments reeks of bullcrap and I don't like it.
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On April 08 2012 08:19 Solohan50 wrote: ##Vote: strongandbig
Thanks, man.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Night 3
Solohan50 (4): strongandbig, Hiropro, marvellosity, omnommuffins
strongandbig (1): Solohan50
Solohan50, Mafia Roleblocker has been lynched!
Night 4 has begun! Please send in your actions to both Radfield and Cephiro. Night ends in 24 hours, on Monday, Apr 09 12:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
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Awww, I was hoping for an awesome death scene. Maybe eaten by an alligator, or given an overdose of animal sedative instead of truth syrum. Anyway gentlemen, good game. I shall see you all in the afterlife.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 08 2012 09:55 Solohan50 wrote:Awww, I was hoping for an awesome death scene. Maybe eaten by an alligator, or given an overdose of animal sedative instead of truth syrum. Anyway gentlemen, good game. I shall see you all in the afterlife.
Sorry about that, I'm at work right now
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Sorry I naven't been on today guys and I figured with the day lynch today I would have time to wait until night.
I am leaning towards HiroPro as mafia. Will do a whole post on why once this whole GSTL drama dies down. I reserve the right to change that opinion when I go through the filters again.
Though we have seen my record on reading people :-/ this game is hard without body language and tonal inflections.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I'm starting to think my previous reads on s&b were wrong and he might actually be mafia :/ his stubbornness/dopiness on this day 1 voting thing is almost unbelievable to me
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Do you still not understand what I'm saying? How is that possible...
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To clarify yet again: you had to respond to kohbee's roleclaim, since you had not voted yet. Fourface and hiropro didn't have to do anything after he claimed.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Do YOU still not understand what I'M saying?
You bang on about ACTIONS, my actions were to save Kohbee the blueclaimer from the lynch only to go after him superhard the next day. Those are not mafia ACTIONS. Geddit?
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As I've said, saving him would have been the correct scum action IMO.
As for going after him the next day, I need to think some more about how that all went down. Obviously since I also went after him, I believe that there was a town rationale for doing so. However, that doesn't mean there wasn't also a scum rationale for it.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Alright, I don't really understand/agree with your logic/rationale, but I hope you manage to realise that I am town. We are once again approaching lylo and there isn't time for the goose chase that is me, although I will present a clear and lengthy defence of myself if you decide you have serious accusations to make.
Meanwhile, we need to hear from omnommuffins. We need to hear what he promised us
On April 08 2012 11:58 omnomMuffins wrote:
I am leaning towards HiroPro as mafia. Will do a whole post on why once this whole GSTL drama dies down. I reserve the right to change that opinion when I go through the filters again.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
omnom's silence makes marv a sad panda :/
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If I die, lynch omnom. Neither strong nor marvel look like mafia to me and omnom has been anti-town this entire game. Read my last couple of posts on omnom. I think this is it for me
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
<3 Hiro
My thoughts on the night-time kill:
if omnom isn't mafia, anyone could be killed as long as omnom is left alive as a now too obvious last day lynch. If he is mafia, he would probably kill hiro.
This is why I don't like inactivity
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Day 4
As day dawned, only 3 members of the zoo staff met in the break room.
"Where is he?"
"Dunno, maybe he stopped to get breakfast"
Searching the grounds, the three employees quickly found their fourth compatriot. Lying face down with the vervet monkeys, a mostly eaten bag of freshly baked blueberry muffins nestled protectively under her body.
"Roll her over"
"YOU roll her over!"
As the three men scattered the monkeys and rolled over the body, there could be no doubt. OmnomMuffins had been brutally scratched and bitten by the monkeys, yet her muffiny countenance was easily recognizable.
The three men looked at each other.
"I guess this is it...."
OmnomMuffins the Vanilla Townie has been mauled by Vervet Monkeys!
This is it folks!
Voting ends in 48 hours at 00:00 GMT (+00:00)
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
What? This is so confusing to me.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 09 2012 09:11 marvellosity wrote: What? This is so confusing to me.
I admit it's strange, Vervet Monkeys are not normally so aggressive.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: Confusing, but potentially good for town.
Best case scenario was probably that omnom was mafia, anyone died, omnom got lynched and town wins. Worst case scenario is that omnom wasn't mafia, random guy got killed, and the last remaining mafia managed to have omnom lynched.
We're in the middle case scenario where omnom isn't mafia but was hit. This is extremely surprisingly to me.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Radfield: I particularly enjoyed 'muffiny countenance'
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Wow. Not what I was expecting.
Very interesting though.
I feel like I'm in a Poirot movie or something... "the murderer is among us - in this very room!"
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Just going to point this out once and for all, pronouns please people. Her muffiny countance, She did this. I did mention skirt weather did I not?
Also, sorry I didn't get a chance to post, it has been rather ridiculous here at IPL. Gogo town.
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This makes no sense at all.
I need to go through filters.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
So, this omnom killing seems to have thrown us into silence/confusion. I'm guessing whoever is town is confused and not sure what to think/analyse at the moment.
I've been jotting down things in notepad, and I've realised I can't sit here in silence, because:
a) if Hiro is mafia, he could kill omnom and hope to lynch me with strongandbig's help, who has been suspecting me for much of the game b) if strongandbig is mafia, he could kill omnom and hope to bring Hiro over to his case against... me again.
Now, for some reason mafia thought that killing omnom muffins would be the strongest move, principally because they thought they could get someone else lynched with someone else's help, saving themself.
What I can't quite get my head around is that omnom was a good and likely lynch target for anyone involved, it's why this is so tricky.
One thing I can think of is this: omnom clearly stated she was going to make a case against Hiro, and as she flipped townie, we can presume that clearly she meant to make a case. This is a decent reason for omnom to be the nightkill, especially given omnom's erratic posting pattern, the kill could occur before omnom made her case (as it indeed occurred).
Taking this further into some if buts - Hiro leaves omnom alive, and kills me. omnom goes on to make her case against Hiro, which coupled with my previous case and subsequent death, would be fairly compelling evidence against Hiro. Or, Hiro kills s&b, leaving - me and omnom, both of whom have either already or are planning to make cases against Hiro. Hiro could also be heavily relying on s&b not taking any of this at any worth, because s&b would be thinking of me as mafia.
If s&b was mafia, I can't see good enough reasoning for him not leaving omnom alive.
This post has been a bit of a journey of discovery for me. But, based on:
a) my previously made case vs Hiro b) s&b's longstanding suspicion of me c) omnom's suspicion of hiro and the nightkill only making sense from hiro's perspective,
I firmly believe that HiroPro is scum.
##Vote: HiroPro
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: regarding b) s&b's longstanding suspicion of me - I mean that Hiro could understand that s&b will be sceptical about the case I make due to his suspicions of me as mafia, thus weakning the pressure on himself, leaving a good situation where one townie hasn't suspected him (s&b) while suspecting whatever case the other townie (me) makes
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Hiropro's case against omnom:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2012 03:09 marvellosity wrote: So, this omnom killing seems to have thrown us into silence/confusion. I'm guessing whoever is town is confused and not sure what to think/analyse at the moment.
I've been jotting down things in notepad, and I've realised I can't sit here in silence, because:
a) if Hiro is mafia, he could kill omnom and hope to lynch me with strongandbig's help, who has been suspecting me for much of the game b) if strongandbig is mafia, he could kill omnom and hope to bring Hiro over to his case against... me again.
Now, for some reason mafia thought that killing omnom muffins would be the strongest move, principally because they thought they could get someone else lynched with someone else's help, saving themself.
What I can't quite get my head around is that omnom was a good and likely lynch target for anyone involved, it's why this is so tricky.
One thing I can think of is this: omnom clearly stated she was going to make a case against Hiro, and as she flipped townie, we can presume that clearly she meant to make a case. This is a decent reason for omnom to be the nightkill, especially given omnom's erratic posting pattern, the kill could occur before omnom made her case (as it indeed occurred).
Taking this further into some if buts - Hiro leaves omnom alive, and kills me. omnom goes on to make her case against Hiro, which coupled with my previous case and subsequent death, would be fairly compelling evidence against Hiro. Or, Hiro kills s&b, leaving - me and omnom, both of whom have either already or are planning to make cases against Hiro. Hiro could also be heavily relying on s&b not taking any of this at any worth, because s&b would be thinking of me as mafia.
If s&b was mafia, I can't see good enough reasoning for him not leaving omnom alive.
This post has been a bit of a journey of discovery for me. But, based on:
a) my previously made case vs Hiro b) s&b's longstanding suspicion of me c) omnom's suspicion of hiro and the nightkill only making sense from hiro's perspective,
I firmly believe that HiroPro is scum.
##Vote: HiroPro
A lot of this makes some amount of sense to me.
However - I'm still not entirely convinced.
Why would HiroPro have posted this yesterday, knowing that he was going to kill omnom?
+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 08:56 HiroPro wrote:If I die, lynch omnom. Neither strong nor marvel look like mafia to me and omnom has been anti-town this entire game. Read my last couple of posts on omnom. I think this is it for me
I don't think this post makes sense if hiropro is going to kill omnom. It undermines any case he could make against either of us. He would have to rely on us making cases against each other. Now, it's possible that he would, since I've been suspicious of you and you indicated yesterday that you were suspicious of me. But (and here I am inserting how I would play into someone else's head again) it seems like that would be too risky compared to killing either one of us and trying to persuade the other one to go after omnommuffins. Actually, it seems to me that if hiro was the mafia, the best move would have been to kill you and then convince me that omnommuffins is the scum.
Hiro has been pushing his case against omnom for basically the whole game, and it was a relatively convincing one imo. For the last five days, he's said pretty much daily that omnom is his guess for the second mafia.
You say that because I've been suspicious of you, it makes sense for hiropro to kill omnom because then he could hope to persuade me to lynch you.
That's true, so I really want to hear what hiropro has to say about the situation.
However, that also smells a lot like the analysis you made on the fourface killing:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me). ##Vote: Kohbee
And the post that Kohbee pointed out in his pre-death post:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 22:09 Kohbee wrote:If I do get lynched and when I flip Sane Cop, this should immediately confirm Hiropro and KB as town. To argue otherwise is stupid and illogical. Hey Kohbee, why is Marvel also scum?... In this post he literally sets up the scum's night actions + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 09:16 marvellosity wrote: Bah.
Ok let's think. Therapist is townie, and if Kohbee is telling the truth, he is blue cop. If that is the case, the clear play for mafia is to hit Kohbee. Mafia could go for the double bluff and not hit Kohbee, but if he's the cop it's way too risky because he could find out their alignment.
If Kohbee is lying, then he's mafia. And if Kohbee is mafia, then I think we can say without doubt he won't be killing himself.
So we should know at the end of the night what is what. and then continues with the same WIFOM argument the next day. ... He is also chainsaw defending Solohan50 like the life of his game was on the line. He just softly OMGUS'd Hiropro with a completely vague argument for why he is voting the way he is.
I also note that Solohan made the same sort of analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 10:47 Solohan50 wrote: - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
It sounds like fourface was killed because the mafia thought that it would help them convince town to lynch Kohbee.
HOWEVER!
Here's a post from solohan that makes me feel very uncertain about the idea that he and marvellosity could have been scum together:
On April 05 2012 03:08 Solohan50 wrote: I probably should've done this on my last post, but ##Vote: Kohbee. At this point, it's either myself or Kohbee that are getting lynched today, and everyone knows where I stand. If Kohbee gets lynched and flips green/blue, then it's my nuts on the chopping block, most likely followed by marvellosity. If Kohbee flips red, then I think HiroPro is the next likely candidate. He's been relatively consistent in voting for me, he helped bandwagon Therapist at the end of Day 1, and seems to be defending Kohbee against my attacks. It's not an ironclad, bulletproof case, but that's what I think.
With that said, carry on gentlemen. The next few hours should be interesting. If you do decide to lynch me, make sure the noose is an extra large one; my head is fairly large.
Interesting note: this is the only time in the entire game that solohan mentioned either of you by name.
It seems like it makes little sense for him to associate himself with his scumbuddy like this - to me, this post could be a point against hiropro and a point in marvellosity's favor. However, that becomes a bit of wifom analysis; kohbee had recently accused solohan and marvellosity of being the scum team together, and everyone's thoughts were leaning in that direction.
So now we come to the thing that I focused on almost exclusively for the first few days of this game; the thing that convinced me that Kohbee was scum. The day 1 vote.
On March 30 2012 04:44 Cephiro wrote: Day 1 Vote History: Kohbee voted HiroPro Therapist voted Kohbee FourFace voted HiroPro KharadBanar voted Solohan50 marvellosity voted Solohan50 strongandbig voted Kohbee omnomMuffins voted FourFace marvellosity unvoted Solohan50 marvellosity voted FourFace FourFace unvoted HiroPro Kohbee unvoted HiroPro FourFace voted Therapist HiroPro voted omnomMuffins HiroPro unvoted omnomMuffins HiroPro voted Solohan50 Kohbee voted Solohan50 KharadBanar unvoted Solohan50 strongandbig unvoted Kohbee Solohan50 voted Kohbee marvellosity unvoted FourFace KharadBanar voted Therapist Kohbee voted Therapist FourFace unvoted Therapist FourFace voted Kohbee strongandbig voted Kohbee HiroPro unvoted Solohan50 HiroPro voted Therapist marvellosity voted Therapist FourFace unvoted Kohbee FourFace voted marvellosity
Marvellosity voted solohan right after KB did, then unvoted him pretty soon afterward when omnom made her protest vote against fourface.
Hiropro voted solohan in response to a post from kohbee (accidentally on his roommate's account) where kohbee said that he should vote for someone with more votes so mafia couldn't swing the vote.
I actually don't know how I should lean on this end of things.
So what am I going to conclude from this?
First, there's the wifom argument trying to explain the killing. As marvellosity says, since hiropro knows I suspect marvellosity, killing omnom could make sense because he could get me to then lynch marv. Additionally, omnom said she was going to make a case against hiropro. However, hiropro has been making a case against omnom for basically the whole game. To me, it doesn't make sense for the mafia to kill the person they'd been making their case against, since they then have to start making a whole new case up for the last day and start trying to persuade people to join them. This is especially true since I probably could have been persuaded to vote against omnom if she had lived, since her play seemed pretty scummy.
Other than that, there's hiro's post yesterday, which seems town-ish to me in light of omnom dying. The reason for this is that it undermines any case hiro would make today against either of us being scum.
There's also the fact that marvellosity's analysis of the mafia's night kill seems similar to the argument about fourface's death, which I suspect was an attempt by mafia to frame kohbee, and to the post kohbee found suspicious on day 1 - as well as to the post by solohan about fourface's death.
However, in Marvellosity's favor there's that inexplicable post by solohan, as well as the fact that omnom said he was going to make a case against hiropro.
So right now, I'm leaning towards marvellosity being the last scum.
But, I think it could be hiropro - I'm hesitant to trust this because I was so wrong in analyzing kohbee's behavior, but it doesn't seem to make sense for marvellosity to leave me alive if he's the scum, especially given that he then tries to get me to vote for hiropro and not the other way around. He knows it would be an uphill battle to convince me to vote for hiropro.
Hiropro, a post from you going over your view of the game at this point would really be great.
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Only mafia know the reasons behind the night kills and I think speculating about why certain people were killed is extremely WIFOM and distracts from actually looking for mafia.
Marvel pretty much ignored the response I made to his accusation against me, except to quote a post from day 1 when i voted for solohan, when I was in fact talking about the vote of solohan over Kohbee on day 2.
My stance was perfectly clear when I voted for solohan over Kohbee. Kohbee did not respond the way that a mafia would when I pressured him or when strong and yourself posted reads on him. And I had already become suspicious of the logic that solohan used to make his case. If you'll reread my posts in their entirety without taking little snippets from here and there you will see my logic.
Hiro: you voted for Solohan because "you didn't want mafia to control the vote". You said Kohbee is completely pro-town simply on the basis that he was talking, but that's not why you voted Solohan at the time.
These things are minor and not enough to lynch someone. But I cannot find anything scummy on strong, except for the same decisions and votes that marvel made. Also, if strong was mafia, he would follow suit with marvel's vote and ensure town is lynched; he wouldn't wait to make a vote.
And ultimately, both Kohbee and Kharad thought the 2nd mafia was marvellosity. They've been right about everything else. I think they're right about this too.
##Vote: marvellosity
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Yay, posting! I was beginning to think this game was going to die a slow horrible death. I'm glad you're willing to critically rethink your reads. I'm just going to talk about some things and hopefully get you to think about them in a different way.
On April 10 2012 06:48 strongandbig wrote:However, that also smells a lot like the analysis you made on the fourface killing: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: The first guy to consistently attack you in the thread, therapist, wound up a dead townie. The 2nd guy, Fourface, who attacked you, wounded up killed. Now Solohan, the next guy who's consistently on your back, is who you're trying to make the 3rd dead guy based on a silly case with his wording of his posts (which came across clearly enough to me). ##Vote: Kohbee And the post that Kohbee pointed out in his pre-death post: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 22:09 Kohbee wrote:If I do get lynched and when I flip Sane Cop, this should immediately confirm Hiropro and KB as town. To argue otherwise is stupid and illogical. Hey Kohbee, why is Marvel also scum?... In this post he literally sets up the scum's night actions + Show Spoiler +On April 02 2012 09:16 marvellosity wrote: Bah.
Ok let's think. Therapist is townie, and if Kohbee is telling the truth, he is blue cop. If that is the case, the clear play for mafia is to hit Kohbee. Mafia could go for the double bluff and not hit Kohbee, but if he's the cop it's way too risky because he could find out their alignment.
If Kohbee is lying, then he's mafia. And if Kohbee is mafia, then I think we can say without doubt he won't be killing himself.
So we should know at the end of the night what is what. and then continues with the same WIFOM argument the next day. ... He is also chainsaw defending Solohan50 like the life of his game was on the line. He just softly OMGUS'd Hiropro with a completely vague argument for why he is voting the way he is.
I also note that Solohan made the same sort of analysis: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2012 10:47 Solohan50 wrote: - Kohbee's loudest critic, FourFace, was killed immediately after Therapist. While FourFace's lack of spam may help Town a bit, FourFace was also Kohbee's most outspoken enemy and it would be in Kohbee's interest to have him taken out. Having your most vocal opponent taken out would certainly be useful, especially when other people disliked FourFace as well and probably wouldn't mourn his loss (at least one person voted for FourFace just out of spite because of his spam). On top of that, "Kohbee vs Fourface v2" (as KB so eloquently put it) started immediately after, clogging up the thread even more.
It sounds like fourface was killed because the mafia thought that it would help them convince town to lynch Kohbee.
This has to be the biggest regret-that-I-didn't-know-would-be-a-regret for me in the game. I happen to make a circumstancial argument vs Kohbee, that, unfortunately for me, Solohan also used. However, it was only a part of why I thought Kohbee was scum (I made several other points within that same post). Now, if Kohbee had flipped scum, that circumstancial evidence would have proven correct. It's only because Kohbee happened to flip blue after I voted for him (and you incidentally) that this now looks incriminating. At the time it seemed logical enough (the people having arguments with Kohbee WERE dying after all).
On April 10 2012 06:48 strongandbig wrote: Other than that, there's hiro's post yesterday, which seems town-ish to me in light of omnom dying. The reason for this is that it undermines any case hiro would make today against either of us being scum.
Amongst the large amount of WIFOM I'm desperately trying to avoid posting, I'd like to at least propose this could be viewed in a different light. Hiro has been going after omnom, makes this point purposefully looking townie, and then when 'shockingly' omnom turns up dead, he can go "aww shucks, seems I was wrong and one of you two must be mafia! *hops on s&b's case against marv*" Hiro doesn't have to make a case when you're already on mine. Again, I appreciate this is WIFOM, but please consider it among other things.
On April 10 2012 06:48 strongandbig wrote:HOWEVER! Here's a post from solohan that makes me feel very uncertain about the idea that he and marvellosity could have been scum together: Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:08 Solohan50 wrote: I probably should've done this on my last post, but ##Vote: Kohbee. At this point, it's either myself or Kohbee that are getting lynched today, and everyone knows where I stand. If Kohbee gets lynched and flips green/blue, then it's my nuts on the chopping block, most likely followed by marvellosity. If Kohbee flips red, then I think HiroPro is the next likely candidate. He's been relatively consistent in voting for me, he helped bandwagon Therapist at the end of Day 1, and seems to be defending Kohbee against my attacks. It's not an ironclad, bulletproof case, but that's what I think.
With that said, carry on gentlemen. The next few hours should be interesting. If you do decide to lynch me, make sure the noose is an extra large one; my head is fairly large.
I have to thank you here - I didn't even think to look at Solohan's filter! But this is bang on the money. He explicitly connects us both. Added to this is the post I made at the time where I believed I would be the prime target after Kohbee's killing (I was naive about Solohan apparently):
On April 04 2012 22:28 marvellosity wrote:
Responsibility for my actions? You are the first person I'm pushing hard for a lynch, Kohbee. I am well aware that if you get lynched and you flip blue, I will be #1 target.
In the meanwhile, Hiro is ninjaing me and following the established plan of trying to confirm s&b's suspicions of me. Good stuff.
On April 10 2012 07:35 HiroPro wrote: Only mafia know the reasons behind the night kills and I think speculating about why certain people were killed is extremely WIFOM and distracts from actually looking for mafia.
No, it IS important and relevant as the last major action taken in this game.
strongandbig, I ask you the following. Consider that I am mafia, and we will consider the nightkill. It could go down as it did:
1) I kill omnom. S&B has suspicions of me and Hiro can bandwagon this. 2) I kill HiroPro. This leaves s&b and omnom as town. omnom's mafia read just died, and s&b has been pushing marv all game. omnom has to form a new opinion, with... only s&b's large arguments against marv, vs marv's one-liner about being annoyed by s&b (please consider I said I had town-reads on you at least twice this game) 3) I kill strongandbig. Now I am left with my case against Hiro, plus omnom muffins - who also had Hiro as prime target. There is one possible downside to this - for whatever reason, omnom thinks s&b's death is dodgy because he suspected me. But, the real fact is that THERE WOULD BE TWO PEOPLE GUNNING FOR HIRO, AND ZERO GUNNING FOR MARV. Also note that you s&b are probably the strongest collective town-read, so your death would not be surprising in of itself.
Please, and I mean please pretty please, tell me why I as mafia would choose option 1 over option 3. It simply makes no sense. Like, I can't stress this question enough. Leaving you alive when I would have me and someone else who stated that Hiro is their mafia is just madness. Why, oh why, would I kill the ONE person about to join in on my case?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: I can make my 3) there doubly compelling - it's either MARV + OMNOM = take down Hiro. OR Hiro has been gunning for omnommuffins for AGES, so a marv mafia could instead go MARV + HIRO = take down omnom.
As mafia, I must must choose 3) as my nightkill.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Just wanted to let you know that I may be slightly late for tonight, hopefully I can get Cephiro to make the final post
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
So, as this day drags on, I start to get the sickening feeling that I've made a terrible mistake, and strongandbig has been playing me very convincingly.
Why? This is the last day with the entire result on the line. What of it you say? strongandbig has posted twice in Bastard Mafia but not at all here. What the hell is that about?
I'm now just confused. I didn't like HiroPro's comment about ignoring the nightkill because it's important. The night-kill is practically what clears me about being mafia. Whoever is town, you have to understand this.
Now wait, you say, couldn't you have killed omnommuffins with a view to claim you wouldn't possibly do that and clear yourself? Yes, yes I could. But it's come down to me pleading with the other townsperson to simply believe me. Killing strongandbig would have given me FAR higher chances for victory.
So, I've thought Hiro was the scum. But now s&b goes posting in other games without posting here and I'm all a flutter.
Whoever is town, this is our last chance to make this right. Please help me.
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The reason I haven't been posting here is because I have no fucking clue what to do.
Hiro has said very little in the last few days.
However, your arguments about how we should interpret the night kills sound really scummy to me. Just like I believe fourface was killed in order to set up the frame on kohbee, it also seems like omnom could have been killed so that you could say "why would I do that?"
Right now I'm reading filters.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Oh good god. Of course I could bloody say "why would I do that".
But how can you possibly believe that my chances in that situation would be higher than killing you?
THAT is the question. Nothing more.
I'll put it as a 2 parted, related question:
1) Would my chances as mafia of victory be higher in killing strongandbig and having my choice of wagon be higher than killing omnom and having to plead with the townsperson to win?
a) yes b) no
Conclusion: ...
2) Do you think I'm stupid enough to have thought that pleading a wifom case on the final day was a better play than killing you and lynching someone else during the final day?
a) yes b) no
Conclusion: ...
Basically, do you think I'm an idiot? To reiterate one more time, I COULD HAVE set this up to say "why would I do that". But clearly my chances were far higher in killing strongandbig regardless.
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I don't believe a word you're saying right now. Your entire case is based on night kill WIFOM, which is something that mafia are primarily concerned with.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Of course I'm bloody concerned with it because i've have to be a fucking retarded mafia to have killed omnom.
At least now I'm certain it is s&b who is town.
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On April 11 2012 07:20 marvellosity wrote: Oh good god. Of course I could bloody say "why would I do that".
But how can you possibly believe that my chances in that situation would be higher than killing you?
THAT is the question. Nothing more.
I'll put it as a 2 parted, related question:
1) Would my chances as mafia of victory be higher in killing strongandbig and having my choice of wagon be higher than killing omnom and having to plead with the townsperson to win?
a) yes b) no
Conclusion: ...
2) Do you think I'm stupid enough to have thought that pleading a wifom case on the final day was a better play than killing you and lynching someone else during the final day?
a) yes b) no
Conclusion: ...
Basically, do you think I'm an idiot? To reiterate one more time, I COULD HAVE set this up to say "why would I do that". But clearly my chances were far higher in killing strongandbig regardless.
Well, Solohan was an idiot.
Here's something else I found in his filter:
On April 03 2012 01:33 Solohan50 wrote: I find it amusing that Kohbee is sitting here telling the entire thread who is scum, based off of who voted to lynch him. I would be more worried about some of the last-minute switches than I would about the people who thought you were scum from the start. A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
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I'm going to dinner. I'll vote on the way back.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I didn't ask if Solohan was an idiot. You can take all my previous posts (where I have clearly been trying very hard for many days) or Hiro's extremely occasional, not-making-an-effort posts.
I will reiterate my questions that you quoted. Do you believe that I would have been that stupid? Is that what your filter tells me? Does my capacity to even ask the questions not indicate the answer?
Please just answer the two questions I posed and vote. If you think that I would be dumb enough not to have killed you and ended up in this extremely frustrating situation, then so be it.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: is that what my filter tells you, not vice versa of course
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I'm touched you believe in my intelligence ^^
Cue Hiro actually making an effort for the first time in days to remedy situation
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I pushed for a lynch on solohan. I argued that Kohbee's play was not like that of mafia and that the case solohan made no sense and was scummy. I focused on reads and mafia behavior. These aren't mafia actions.
Marvel has focused on WIFOM throughout the entire game and has completely disregarded my response to his "case". That's the not the way a townsperson plays.
If you can't believe me, then fine. But remember Kohbee and Kharad; they both identified marvel as their strongest mafia read after solohan.
Don't let this end in a loss for town.
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I am actually feeling a certain sense of elation, not because strongandbig is voting with me, which gives me the win, but because my mafia-read on you, Hiro, was correct. Your last two posts have proven this to me, whereas with s&b's posting on Bastard I had begun to doubt myself.
Your play has been clever, I'll give you that. you bussed solohan when it was clear the 4 votes on Kohbee were absolutely staying on Kohbee. You then set yourself up to look uber townie by accusing omnom, making a pre-day post, and then killing him.
What you failed to appreciate, however, is how killing omnom would look if I were mafia, and that's your mistake. You realised this after I pointed it out and tried to downplay it immediately
On April 10 2012 07:35 HiroPro wrote: Only mafia know the reasons behind the night kills and I think speculating about why certain people were killed is extremely WIFOM and distracts from actually looking for mafia.
Then again you desperately try to discredit it
On April 11 2012 07:31 HiroPro wrote: I don't believe a word you're saying right now. Your entire case is based on night kill WIFOM, which is something that mafia are primarily concerned with.
because you know it's so important.
I will happily ask you the two questions I asked strongandbig. Tell me straight, no other fluff, do you possibly think I could have played like that unless I was dumb? Looking forward to your answer.
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EBWOP: regarding my 2nd quote - you don't believe a word I'm saying? I wasn't saying anything, I was asking questions. Questions which you know the answer to.
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:rolls eyes:
yay, I'm a dumbass again
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I'm gonna keep banging on about my two questions asking if I'm a dumbass - just a reminder that omnom was the one who would have been voting on hiropro with me, and omnom was the one who was going to take aim at hiropro but couldn't because she was killed.
This is all very well, but it still comes down to my questions. But please remember that s&b as it has been brushed under the carpet a bit amidst the rest of this. Hopefully just the last thing that shows you why I WOULD NOT KILL OMNOM GODDAMNIT.
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God damnit. I feel like a huge idiot no matter which way I vote.
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Of course you do. Because you've been aiming at me for so long and you vote hiro and I flip mafia you kick yourself so hard it hurts.
Please just look at the merits of me killing omnom. Please.
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If you don't vote, we lose.
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Don't be silly, Hiro.
##Unvote ##Vote: HiroPro
There, now you win if he doesn't vote.
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fuck my phone died
lost the huge post i had
##vote: hiropro
hiro's day 1 play did not seem town to me, he was too afraid to defend himself. unlike kohbee i don't think not giving a fuck that there's a vote on you is a sign of being town.
also it makes absolutely no fucking sense for marvellosity to kill omnom. hiro and omnom had been accusing each other for days of being mafia.
this is directed at all the townies in the obs thread who are gonna call me a moron if i get this wrong.
screw all y'all.
strongandbig out
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fuck yeah 1 minute before the deadline, no mod kill for me
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now i'm gonna go play an hour-long game of sc2 lotr and not read this thread until i feel like less of an indecisive retard.
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The final post will be slightly delayed. I will post it without story for now. (Sorry everyone!)
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cmon the fuck, i just need to know if s&b really did play me like a little bitch :x
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fffffffff i can't stay away.
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The Final Vote Count:
HiroPro (2): marvellosity, strongandbig
marvellosity (1): HiroPro
Night 4
The baby turtle is happy as he is finally safe.
HiroPro, the Mafia Goon has been lynched.
GG, Town Victory!
Full Role List: + Show Spoiler + 1.Solohan50 - Mafia Roleblocker 2.Therapist. - Vanilla Townie 3.HiroPro - Mafia Goon 4.omnomMuffins - Vanilla Townie 5.marvellosity - Vanilla Townie 6.strongandbig - Vanilla Townie 7.Kohbee - Town Sane Cop 8.FourFace - Vanilla Townie 9.KharadBanar - Town Jailkeeper
Full List Of Actions: + Show Spoiler + Night 1 KharadBanar jailed Kohbee Solohan50 roleblocked Kohbee HiroPro killed FourFace Kohbee tried to check HiroPro Solohan50 omnomMuffins - No result
Night 2 KharadBanar jailed Solohan50 Solohan50 tried to roleblock strongandbig - Failed HiroPro killed KharadBanar
Night 3 HiroPro killed omnomMuffins
Full List Of Final Votecounts And Vote History: + Show Spoiler +
Full Story As Seen By Cephiro: + Show Spoiler +
The Observer Quicktopic
Cephiro's thoughts & analysis on players and game flow: + Show Spoiler +
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Fuck yes, yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Town - High fives!
strongandbig - I had to drag you goddamn kicking and screaming over the line in utter desperation, but we did it!
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YES YES YES I came to the conclusion much earlier in the obs QT/with my RL friend on IM But to see the same decision get made in the thread by strongandbig.., With great power comes great responsibility comes great indecision, and he mastered it. Congratulations.
Also, like a great man once said:
CombatEx wrote: EZ EZ EZ EZ EZ
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LOL GG town. Well played.
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I'll post some opinions and analysis on each players play later on (And fill out my missing parts of the story).
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YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
Marv you gotta admit solohan made you look pretty bad, all your cases were wifom and he did the exact same kind of wifom as you
But the main reason I had such a hard time voting for hiro is that I felt so crappy about getting kohbee killed, and he was so sure that hiro was town.
Anyway I feel like slightly less of an idiot now
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Cephiro: Yes please! You don't need to make it in super huge blog fashion like GreYMisT after Aperture however, lol Just post it here in the thread ^^
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On April 11 2012 09:15 strongandbig wrote: YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
Marv you gotta admit solohan made you look pretty bad, all your cases were wifom and he did the exact same kind of wifom as you
But the main reason I had such a hard time voting for hiro is that I felt so crappy about getting kohbee killed, and he was so sure that hiro was town.
Anyway I feel like slightly less of an idiot now
Yes he did, and that was very unfortunate for me. Because looking back he just said multiple things that fucked me over - but as it turned out we weren't working together, just the things he was saying were working against me!
Unlike you I didn't feel that bad killing Kohbee, I didn't feel like it was bad play on my part. And I'm glad that I got my scumread on Hiro right, and I got it right in advance.
Not to say I didn't do plenty of silly things this game of course You absolutely played the best, right down to your final correct decision. So grats bro
Edit: Also my large thanks to Radfield and Cephiro to hosting this. tyvm ^^
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gg guys
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We all made silly mistakes, though some (me) made more than others. It was definitely a good learning experience though; I took away a lot of good information. I think my biggest fault was talking Hiro into killing FourFace on Night 1 though, followed by my Night post on Night 1. We had initially been aiming for Kharad until Kohbee's roleclaim, and I thought killing FourFace would be useful to frame Kohbee. I think if we'd left FourFace in the game and killed Kharad on Night 1, things would've gone much better for Mafia. Right before killing FourFace, my Night post pretty much gave me away, which didn't leave much for me except to kill Kohbee and then have Hiro bus the shit out of me. Good game though, and hopefully next time I can play a little better.
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On April 11 2012 09:25 Solohan50 wrote: We all made silly mistakes, though some (me) made more than others. It was definitely a good learning experience though; I took away a lot of good information. I think my biggest fault was talking Hiro into killing FourFace on Night 1 though, followed by my Night post on Night 1. We had initially been aiming for Kharad until Kohbee's roleclaim, and I thought killing FourFace would be useful to frame Kohbee. I think if we'd left FourFace in the game and killed Kharad on Night 1, things would've gone much better for Mafia. After killing FourFace, my Night post pretty much gave me away, which didn't leave much for me except to kill Kohbee and then have Hiro bus the shit out of me. Good game though, and hopefully next time I can play a little better.
gg mate. Maybe you underestimated how suspicious Kohbee looked for his claim anyway, you probably didn't need to add fuel to the fire.
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On April 11 2012 09:38 marvellosity wrote:
gg mate. Maybe you underestimated how suspicious Kohbee looked for his claim anyway, you probably didn't need to add fuel to the fire.
I tunneled onto him because of the roleclaim. I overestimated his importance, especially when I could just roleblock him endlessly.
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Can I just give props to therapist for a moment... from the obs QT -
Therapist. 04-04-2012 09:48 PM ET (US) Solohan and Hiropro are scum. Guarunteed.
That was a week ago!
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On April 11 2012 09:48 marvellosity wrote: Can I just give props to therapist for a moment... from the obs QT -
Therapist. 04-04-2012 09:48 PM ET (US) Solohan and Hiropro are scum. Guarunteed.
That was a week ago!
Yeah pretty impressive.
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Town won a newbie game.
WAT.
Im impressed.
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solohan is his friend irl remember. I doubt that is a completely self-created prediction.
I find it really really really fucking ironic that you guys ending by lynching the guy you got me lynched over.
I want to know strong, why did you think that hiropro was scum? In all honesty I think town won on a lucky guess by you and marvel because there was no logical reasoning for anything the 2 of you did.
I'll post a big post with thoughts at the end of the game.
Preview: KB and hiropro rule, everyone else sucks
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On April 11 2012 10:15 Kohbee wrote: solohan is his friend irl remember. I doubt that is a completely self-created prediction.
I find it really really really fucking ironic that you guys ending by lynching the guy you got me lynched over.
I want to know strong, why did you think that hiropro was scum? In all honesty I think town won on a lucky guess by you and marvel because there was no logical reasoning for anything the 2 of you did.
I'll post a big post with thoughts at the end of the game.
Preview: KB and hiropro rule, everyone else sucks
I read this and I have to agree with you Kohbee....how on Earth could you ever get mislynched?
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No, it was not a lucky guess at all. Everything marvel WIFOMed on the last day was correct and strongandbig was correct to follow it. If he were mafia, marvellosity would have absolutely no inclination whatsoever to kill muffins because a scenario where you can WIFOM with it is still much much worse than an almost guaranteed win (by killing strongandbig and letting HiroPro and omnomMuffins duke it out). marvellosity correctly realised this and beat strongandbig over the head with this argument repeatedly because it was the only viable reasoning he had to paint himself as town. But hey, whatever works, right?
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EBWOP, the above is obviously directed at Kohbee and his Lucky Guess explanation
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On April 11 2012 10:15 Kohbee wrote: solohan is his friend irl remember. I doubt that is a completely self-created prediction.
I find it really really really fucking ironic that you guys ending by lynching the guy you got me lynched over.
I want to know strong, why did you think that hiropro was scum? In all honesty I think town won on a lucky guess by you and marvel because there was no logical reasoning for anything the 2 of you did.
I'll post a big post with thoughts at the end of the game.
Preview: KB and hiropro rule, everyone else sucks
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I still think your play made no sense either.
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Anyone saying marvel "wifomed his way to victory" is right and wrong - town should always be interested in finding the reasons why things happen. While it's true that town can't KNOW FOR CERTAIN why scum did certain things, there are others that scum MORE THAN LIKELY WILL NOT DO OR SAY based on logic and knowing their win-condition.
I think marvel did a great job in nailing the last scum and was a big part of town pulling it together at the end. Well played guys.
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if you continue that logic you will lose a lot of mafia games. There was no reason of why strong was town or why hiro was scum. His WIFOM explaination should have only made sense to himself because he knew he was town (strong did not know this).
The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM
Couple this with the fact that there was literally no actual case made against Hiropro and that there was never any reason stated for why strong was town other then further WIFOM of night kills and you come to my conclusion that town won solely on a pair of lucky guesses.
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There WAS a case on Hiro and it was strong. Hiro's response was pisspoor, but due to circumstances was enough to shed suspicion on him.
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What I don't understand is how an omnommuffins shot was good for any scum. Spent all day 2 tunnelling Kohbee with poor reasoning, then was last on the Solohan lynch? Looked like a pretty easy mislynch to me.
Following the nightkill reasoning was acceptable there IMO. Consider that if Marvellosity is scum, he's actually planned to make himself the obvious target and then win the game with nightkill reasoning. You can yell WIFOM all you like, but that's just insanity. Marvellosity didn't show any signs of insanity.
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On April 11 2012 10:32 Kohbee wrote: The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM But painting himself town after killing omnomMuffins is much harder to do than simply offing strongandbig and watching the other two accuse each other (I guarantee you that would have happened). That's my whole point.
It's much easier in the position of scum!marvellosity to simply kill strongandbig than to even begin to consider a WIFOM case which might or might not work depending on strongandbig's though process.
But I don't want to waste time here. As another wise man once said:
On March 17 2012 11:09/March 22 2012 09:11 Grackaroni wrote: We're done here. (I apologise in advance for the bad and obscure reference, but I had to)
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I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting.
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Also I was impressed by FourFace's play in this game. There was a lot of method under the madness. That scum kill made sense at least.
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On April 11 2012 10:41 KharadBanar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:32 Kohbee wrote: The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM But painting himself town after killing omnomMuffins is much harder to do than simply offing strongandbig and watching the other two accuse each other (I guarantee you that would have happened). That's my whole point. It's much easier in the position of scum!marvellosity to simply kill strongandbig than to even begin to consider a WIFOM case which might or might not work depending on strongandbig's though process.But I don't want to waste time here. As another wise man once said: Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 11:09/March 22 2012 09:11 Grackaroni wrote: We're done here. (I apologise in advance for the bad and obscure reference, but I had to)
So if hiro had killed strongandbig, couldn't he have used the exact same argument of "IM NOT AN IDIOT THAT WOULD SHOOT STRONGANDBIG". Just because it worked this time doesn't make it a good or logical practice.
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I think this is the first time I hear anyone positively impressed by FourFace's play =P My initial thought upon seeing the kill of Night 2 in the daypost was "oh thank God they shot FourFace out of all the townies in this game". I can't tell you how hard it is to concentrate on anything productive at town if you are constantly facing that disruptive voice you can't possibly predict. It's hard to estimate how much town productivity was shot down the drain that day simply because of that fact.
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On April 11 2012 10:52 Kohbee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:41 KharadBanar wrote:On April 11 2012 10:32 Kohbee wrote: The fact that he knew that killing muffins would paint him town is your answer to why his argument is not logically sound at all. It is meaningless WIFOM But painting himself town after killing omnomMuffins is much harder to do than simply offing strongandbig and watching the other two accuse each other (I guarantee you that would have happened). That's my whole point. It's much easier in the position of scum!marvellosity to simply kill strongandbig than to even begin to consider a WIFOM case which might or might not work depending on strongandbig's though process.But I don't want to waste time here. As another wise man once said: On March 17 2012 11:09/March 22 2012 09:11 Grackaroni wrote: We're done here. (I apologise in advance for the bad and obscure reference, but I had to) So if hiro had killed strongandbig, couldn't he have used the exact same argument of "IM NOT AN IDIOT THAT WOULD SHOOT STRONGANDBIG". Just because it worked this time doesn't make it a good or logical practice.
I think at that point omnomMuffins would have likely not believed him anyway. HiroPro was the player faced with the worst choice of the three possible scum candidates at endgame. marvellosity could have killed off strongandbig and gotten away with it no problem, and strongandbig would have had the game won almost no matter what because everyone had him confirmed as town in their book.
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On April 11 2012 10:48 Kohbee wrote: I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting.
What's your point here? The case was strong enough to put Hiro on the back foot, and if it weren't for the impending scum-flip, Hiro could have really slipped up in defending himself against it. Verily, almost his entire defense consisted of 1) sidestepping the actual accusations and 2) WIFOM...when what you're accusing marvel of is "lucking into a WIFOM victory" or something stupid.
Just take the victory bro - you'll get your chance to shine.
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On April 11 2012 10:38 jaj22 wrote: Following the nightkill reasoning was acceptable there IMO. Consider that if Marvellosity is scum, he's actually planned to make himself the obvious target and then win the game with nightkill reasoning. You can yell WIFOM all you like, but that's just insanity. Marvellosity didn't show any signs of insanity.
KB, Kohbee simply does not understand the reasoning above. The fact that you, the rest of town, and every other contributor in this thread understands it will not help him, I fear.
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On April 11 2012 11:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:38 jaj22 wrote: Following the nightkill reasoning was acceptable there IMO. Consider that if Marvellosity is scum, he's actually planned to make himself the obvious target and then win the game with nightkill reasoning. You can yell WIFOM all you like, but that's just insanity. Marvellosity didn't show any signs of insanity.
KB, Kohbee simply does not understand the reasoning above. The fact that you, the rest of town, and every other contributor in this thread understands it will not help him, I fear. OK I'm stopping it. If an explanation from VisceraEyes himself doesn't do the trick I don't know if I can do any better Oh and by the way, hello VisceraEyes! I'm glad that veterans are taking the time to look at our newbie game and coach a little bit :D
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Any time.
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On April 11 2012 11:03 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:48 Kohbee wrote: I concede that Hiro's play on the last day cycle was bad. But to say that case is anything damning is false as well.
To say hiro had not taken a firm stance is only partially true. He argued to save me on two separate occasions fairly adamantly, even if it meant he was losing his teammate. I don't know how closely you read the game VE but Hiro did take a firm stance day 2 voting and encouraging others to vote for solohan.
Omnom should have looked scummy to everyone. He argued senselessly (to a fault of my own as well) and clogged up the thread with a ton of horseshit over me (a flipped claimed blue). Him saying this should was more conversational then scummy.
Its super ironic that you point to a case hinging on "he was filmsy" when strongandbig was just as filmsy (if not worse IMO).
To say he did no scum hunting is hysterical because noone except me and KB did any actual scum hunting. What's your point here? The case was strong enough to put Hiro on the back foot, and if it weren't for the impending scum-flip, Hiro could have really slipped up in defending himself against it. Verily, almost his entire defense consisted of 1) sidestepping the actual accusations and 2) WIFOM...when what you're accusing marvel of is "lucking into a WIFOM victory" or something stupid. Just take the victory bro - you'll get your chance to shine. why are you trying to sweep this under the rug.
I don't care about getting my chance to shine, this is a discussion on improvement. As I said before Hiropro played a pretty terrible last day, but as you can see in about 2 minutes I took apart the only "case" that was presented against him.
All you are doing is encouraging the use of night kills as argument to figure out who is scum or convince others that someone is scum. I would hope that you as a vet would know better. Let alone the situation being pretty unique (being 2 town 1 scum left almost never happens). In reality Marvel's argument would almost never work in any other situation and IMO still shouldn't have convinced anyone.
In case you haven't noticed, I am NOT trying to argue that marvel was wrong to come to this conclusion. I am arguing that he is wrong for using this as his argument to others to see his way.
Marvel, I see the logic you used to figure out Hiropro was scum. This is fine, however it only works because you know/knew that you were town. To others, your argument should be less about you and more about Hiropro and why he is scum.
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Now I see what you're saying.
You're taking issue with the specific instance of using WIFOM around the NK's to cement the lynch on the last day.
While you call it WIFOM to speculate about the night-kills, I call it "looking at all the possible reasons something can happen and picking the most likely"...and because he's town, he chose the one that was most likely to him. While it's true that no one else in town knows marvel's alignment, what marvel says about the NKs is still information that town can use to narrow down possible suspects.
I agree that it was a close last day, and could have gone either way based on the argumentation employed, but I don't think it was "poor play" on marvel's part, it was simply all he could think of given the circumstances. One of the things marvel wanted my help with after the game ended was "This was Hiro's response to my case...I didn't know how to respond...what should I have done?" Because he didn't know how to provocatively argue his own case, he chose a different avenue of persuasion that ended up winning the game. Was it the best way? Nah, you're right about that...but I'd be lying if I said I thought it was anything but "doing what must be done to win"...which is what this game is about, on both sides.
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Should also be noted of course that I was proved right about Hiro...
On April 11 2012 11:22 Kohbee wrote:
Marvel, I see the logic you used to figure out Hiropro was scum. This is fine, however it only works because you know/knew that you were town. To others, your argument should be less about you and more about Hiropro and why he is scum.
Yes, but you should for example re-read KB's logic in obsQT, or any other logic. YES, the argument should be about why Hiro is scum.
My logic at the end wasn't even figuring out Hiro was scum, not at all. It was just to establish I could NOT be scum, because, as many others have pointed out, that would have been an insane/dumb play on my part.
It was indeed WIFOM, but it was WIFOM with irrefutable logic unless you accept I am insane, as jaj wrote.
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I feel so bad about joining this game now, gmarsh linked me to it and I thought, oh yeah I should have enough time for a small 9 man before IPL.
Getting consistent Internet access there sucked, and I feel bad about not being able to make my last post on time. Well it is newbie mafia and I feel like I was the only real newbie because I kept trying to use the same tactics that are done in person for the forum.
Out of curiosity how often do town win these?
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To say this is only about marvel is also untrue. In my first (or second im lazy) postgame post I asked for the reasoning behind Strongandbig's vote on hiropro (which is where my comment about town lucking into victory stems from). If you go back i still think that me and KB's cases from days ago against Marvel were stronger than anything Marvel said about Hiropro.
Ps. I am taking issue with using WIFOM around NK's as the argument for any lynch. Its part of the reason I got mislynched too in this game.
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On April 11 2012 11:33 marvellosity wrote: Should also be noted of course that I was proved right about Hiro...
the irony here is soooooo awesome
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On April 11 2012 11:40 Kohbee wrote: To say this is only about marvel is also untrue. In my first (or second im lazy) postgame post I asked for the reasoning behind Strongandbig's vote on hiropro (which is where my comment about town lucking into victory stems from). If you go back i still think that me and KB's cases from days ago against Marvel were stronger than anything Marvel said about Hiropro.
Ps. I am taking issue with using WIFOM around NK's as the argument for any lynch. Its part of the reason I got mislynched too in this game.
That's because in your case the WIFOM could lead to any number of reasonable explanations.
In this case, there was no reasonable explanation for scum marv killing omnom. This is the difference.
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The more you guys expect town, scum, blues, 3rd parties etc to act as you would, the more you will continually be disappointed in your results.
I don't think you understand that you saying its irrefutable logic should prove my point exactly. Because you can think this, this makes it instantly not insane, and actually quite cunning, to pull something like this as scum. You are not seeing yourself from an outsiders prospective who do not know you are town.
All I am saying is that IMO you needed to add a lot more than just I WOULD BE STUPID TO DO THIS, to the thread to have ensured victory. I understand that you did what you thought was necessary to win the game, but I don't think this is the right way to go about your reads, ESPECIALLY in lylo
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I mean I didn't feel bad being killed because yesterday was another travel day, I just wish I could have gotten a computer to post my case first. The only explanation I can figure out for killing me is being considerate since IPL was ending. I was extremely erratic with posting this week (I have learned not to play during travel weeks), and chances are I probably wouldn't have been able to make a post before the deadline for tonights vote anyway which would have been a mod kill. So hiro was clearly just being very considerate towards me with that.
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On April 11 2012 11:47 Kohbee wrote: The more you guys expect town, scum, blues, 3rd parties etc to act as you would, the more you will continually be disappointed in your results.
I don't think you understand that you saying its irrefutable logic should prove my point exactly. Because you can think this, this makes it instantly not insane, and actually quite cunning, to pull something like this as scum. You are not seeing yourself from an outsiders prospective who do not know you are town.
All I am saying is that IMO you needed to add a lot more than just I WOULD BE STUPID TO DO THIS, to the thread to have ensured victory. I understand that you did what you thought was necessary to win the game, but I don't think this is the right way to go about your reads, ESPECIALLY in lylo
You are not grasping that I had the option to kill strongandbig for an easy mafia victory.
I pointed out myself that I was resorting to a desperate WIFOM case instead of ensuring my own victory by killing strongandbig. This would not be a cunning mafia play, it would be stupid, because I could have ensured my own victory.
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The argument isn't "mafia wouldn't do this" the argument was "given my play, do you think the person who's played this game so far would make this move?"
Everything is WIFOM if you break it down far enough, as DocH has said before. Obviously you can't expect players to act "as they should" all the time, but you can make educated guesses as to how they "would" act given the information you have.
Which is, after all, the essence of Mafia.
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Okay me being totally new again... WIFOM?
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you are not grasping the human element that literally just occured in front of you in this game. If strongandbig could be swayed to vote with you whats to say muffins couldn't be swayed differently as well. Your argument is negated by exactly what took place. By your logic shouldn't killing muffins have lead to an easy mafia victory for hiropro?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
*gives up*
you obviously know better than literally everyone else. grats
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On April 11 2012 11:55 omnomMuffins wrote: Okay me being totally new again... WIFOM? Wine in front of me. Someone else has to take this.
Also, I would recommend making sure you have enough time in your schedule before signing up for another game. On top of that maybe reading some guides would help cause you seemed to play more on emotion than logic TBH
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On April 11 2012 11:55 omnomMuffins wrote: Okay me being totally new again... WIFOM?
As Kohbee said, it stands for Wine In Front of Me. It's based on the scene between Wesley and Vizzini in The Princess Bride:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM
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Kohles, if you have ever played in real life you would have realized there is almost no logic in that. The logic extends to hotbid/nazgul is alive after the first night and all the kills were used. They must be mafia. After that it is all reading people's reacts and emotions.
As I said I learned that this time, as well as the time required being much higher than I thought it would be, and while I realize you are pissed for me not realizing this beforehand, it is a newbie game made for learning. You came off as a massive dick the whole game with the attitude which makes people react in a certain way, making it impossible to actually get a neutral read, which leads to pure logic instead of being able to just get reads. When someone is a dick in a real life game, you kill them. I was just using the same rules between the two games, when they are completely different, which again, I already admitted. Notice how you made me get all defensive agin, even though the game is over. It is impossible to get a read off of anyone who has to triple read instead of just gut post since they over analyze it or get overly defensive.
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Ty. Well clearly I just need to build up my resistance to Iocane powder.
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If I had truly been a dick as you are refering to, I would have been warned by mods. I was simply brutally honest, something that I said pre-game that I would be. I don't regret calling anything you or anyone else did stupid because I thoroughly explained my thought process behind why I thought it was stupid. I would also like to point out that people only called me a dick really after they thought I was scum and it was because I called their reasoning for thinking I was scum stupid, which it was. Atleast I had the decency to explain why I thought these reasons were stupid, which in many other games you will not get the luxury of. (Read game of thrones day 2)
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I'm just not going to talk to kohbee about this game anymore. It's clear that he just wants to show how right he is, but that he's not willing to listen. GG town, really happy we won.
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No guys, he just wants to improve like everyone else.
Kohbee, I appreciate your input.
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S&b you were the only person I was sure of as town the whole game. Was kind of like my rok. Much love for that.
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Oh sweet, this game turned out well. I kinda kept up after I died, but lost track about a day ago. Hell yeah town victory. I thought HiroPro would live based on how people were saying he was their strongest town read for so long.
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Out of curiosity, what do you think the result would've been if Mafia had chosen not to kill anyone on the last night? I feel like it would've prevented Marvel's argument about having nothing to gain by killing Omnom, but would that have outweighed Omnom's existing suspicion of Hiro?
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On April 11 2012 11:38 omnomMuffins wrote: Out of curiosity how often do town win these? Rarely. Without meta or veteran scumhunting abilities, I think the balance is strongly against town, and scum need to screw up badly to lose. What's notable about this victory is that it had no positive blue influence.
The only other newbie town victories I recall are Student Mafia (really good town play + Palmar smurf) and Newbie Mini Mafia III (blue victory).
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On April 11 2012 10:57 KharadBanar wrote: I think this is the first time I hear anyone positively impressed by FourFace's play =P My initial thought upon seeing the kill of Night 2 in the daypost was "oh thank God they shot FourFace out of all the townies in this game". I can't tell you how hard it is to concentrate on anything productive at town if you are constantly facing that disruptive voice you can't possibly predict. It's hard to estimate how much town productivity was shot down the drain that day simply because of that fact. For what it's worth I hated his play in his previous game
This probably isn't a popular view, but I think FourFace is right that towns can suffer from being too polite, careful and reasonable. The converse is also true, but in newbie games towns tend to err on the side of caution, which make it tough to spot the (naturally cautious) scum. Unfortunately newbie towns also tend to mislynch aggressive players (eg Kohbee).
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The problem IMO of being obnoxiously aggressive is that it puts everyone on the complete defensive, and makes it hard to make reads off of cadence and sentence structure because of that. Again, I have no place to talk because the only read I had about town/mafia was KB and S&B. I couldn't pick mafia out of a candy bag if they were the only kit kat
There needs to be a balance of being aggressive, but not using obnoxious language that sets everyone on edge.
Sure, town can have problems from being too polite, but the level of aggression put forward on day 1 and until Kohbee was lynched by the two of them (and myself when I got pissy at them) was so high that it was daunting to even think about posting because of their language and so on.
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On April 11 2012 14:51 omnomMuffins wrote:The problem IMO of being obnoxiously aggressive is that it puts everyone on the complete defensive, and makes it hard to make reads off of cadence and sentence structure because of that. Again, I have no place to talk because the only read I had about town/mafia was KB and S&B. I couldn't pick mafia out of a candy bag if they were the only kit kat There needs to be a balance of being aggressive, but not using obnoxious language that sets everyone on edge. Sure, town can have problems from being too polite, but the level of aggression put forward on day 1 and until Kohbee was lynched by the two of them (and myself when I got pissy at them) was so high that it was daunting to even think about posting because of their language and so on.
man up, woman :trollface
I need to read this whole thing and try to learn something from it. By the time I do the discussion will have dried out. To give me a heads up, which night-time post are you referring to when you're saying you gave yourself away, Solohan.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 11 2012 12:16 strongandbig wrote: I'm just not going to talk to kohbee about this game anymore. It's clear that he just wants to show how right he is, but that he's not willing to listen. GG town, really happy we won.
gg man, still can't believe you came over to the lightside with less than a minute less. f5f5f5f5f5f5 syndrome...
On April 11 2012 13:43 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 11:38 omnomMuffins wrote: Out of curiosity how often do town win these? Rarely. Without meta or veteran scumhunting abilities, I think the balance is strongly against town, and scum need to screw up badly to lose. What's notable about this victory is that it had no positive blue influence. The only other newbie town victories I recall are Student Mafia (really good town play + Palmar smurf) and Newbie Mini Mafia III (blue victory).
Feels good I tell ya, with no blue actions being taken/having impact the whole game.
On April 11 2012 14:31 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:57 KharadBanar wrote: I think this is the first time I hear anyone positively impressed by FourFace's play =P My initial thought upon seeing the kill of Night 2 in the daypost was "oh thank God they shot FourFace out of all the townies in this game". I can't tell you how hard it is to concentrate on anything productive at town if you are constantly facing that disruptive voice you can't possibly predict. It's hard to estimate how much town productivity was shot down the drain that day simply because of that fact. For what it's worth I hated his play in his previous game This probably isn't a popular view, but I think FourFace is right that towns can suffer from being too polite, careful and reasonable. The converse is also true, but in newbie games towns tend to err on the side of caution, which make it tough to spot the (naturally cautious) scum. Unfortunately newbie towns also tend to mislynch aggressive players (eg Kohbee).
Yeah, we were one of those 'newbie towns' :p I didn't like Fourface's play (took it too far) but I absolutely see where you're coming from - I've replaced into Mafia LI and everyone is generally far more flippant and less reserved.
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On April 03 2012 01:33 Solohan50 wrote: I find it amusing that Kohbee is sitting here telling the entire thread who is scum, based off of who voted to lynch him. I would be more worried about some of the last-minute switches than I would about the people who thought you were scum from the start. A last minute vote-switch to the Therapist bandwagon would be the perfect place for scum to hide. It gives them all the credibility in the world, even if they have to miss out on the supposed "Cop". What better way to pretend you're not scum than to say "But I saved the Cop at the end?".
It makes even more sense if you think the roleclaim is false and that Kohbee is actually scum. If he is indeed scum, I'm willing to bet that his scum buddy switched vote at the last minute when he realized that the lynch vote was going to take Kohbee out first day. On top of that, Kohbee spent the whole day trying to lynch a townie. When that failed, he roleclaimed and bandwagoned a townie right at the end of the day. On top of that, the townie he lynched was one of the most vocal anti-Kohbee players in the thread short of FourFace. This seems like too big of a string of coincidences for me, which is why my vote stayed where it was, and which is why we ended up lynching a fellow townie instead of the real scum.
FourFace, this is the post that I feel was the first big nail in my coffin. I jumped the gun on this in a couple of ways; I should've posted this on Day 2, after you showed up dead. My whole intention was to frame Kohbee for your murder, so posting anything super accusatory before my plan was completely was foolish (turns out the plan sucked anyway, but that's besides the point). Secondly, I should've put more thought into that post. I typed and sent it off without much review, hence the strange wording and haziness of the main argument.
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Kohbee's Basic Summary of what went down (from my point of view cause im self centered like that)
Day 1 Day 1 started with Fourface's trolling plan. Nothing of game value was posted so anyone wanting to do scum hunting had to read solely into the tone of everyone's posting and not on the agenda behind it. I picked up on Hiropro here because his attempts to troll seemed forced and really well thought out. When I brought this discovery to light in the thread and voted for Hiropro's lynch.
Therapist, not seeing things the same way I did, responded immediately, 2 posts after, that I was wrong and voted me. Because of this, Hiropro was never forced to respond for himself, and this pissed me off. This kind of soft defense in my mind spoke to two different options. The first is that therapist is defending his scum buddy and the second is that scum therapist knows hiropro is town and thinks he will gain town cred saving him. Other than this I cannot think of a good reason why a townie would defend someone over 1 vote early on day 1. Basically this is me not following my own advice of not expecting people to act the "right" way.
This is why I called him scum and didn't want to talk to him. Hiropro seeing that Therapist, Strongandbig, and even KB (to a lesser extent) defending him was able to answer my pressure calmly and sensibly. Fourface sums it up nicely *here* and is extremely logical about the entire situation. Wait what, yes, yes I did just call Fourface posting logical.
As the day progressed I saw that my voting of hiropro was going no where. If I had pushed it any harder people would have jumped on me harder and the last thing I wanted to do was get lynched as a cop. Hiropro also started sheeping me. This was another reason why I had to call him town so that I could continue getting him to vote with me.
Then, towards the end of day 1 fourface and strongandbig are back voting for me again. Omnom's vote is based on fourface being an "asshole" and hiro and KB are with me on therapist. Seeing that there are 2 hours left, and I am a blue, I do what I believe is the only thing I have left, which is claim my role. All of a sudden the thread explodes, Marvel votes therapist, fourface switches to marvel, and I am saved. In all honesty when Therapist flipped town I wanted to post "and nothing of value was lost" but that would got me insta-lynched day 2 for being "aggressive".
Night 1 During the night I knew I wasn't going to be able to check anyone. You can see I tried to check hiropro, solohan and omnom LOL. I posted all my reads knowing I was going to be on the chopping block the next day. Marvel made a really really really good (yes I'm saying good things about you Marvel) post *here*. Then a bunch of nonsense was posted (i did like my post *here*)
Then, at the top of page 22, hiropro posted that my reads were getting way worse. This is actually what opened my eyes to what was really going on. This was the best exchange for me in the whole thread and even though he was scum, this was extremely helpful.
Then, Omnom and me started. To be honest I have no idea what I did to piss Omnom off so terribly, however Omnom's huge post began with a completely emotion based attack on me and fourface. Calling my actions unjustified (when I explained every one of them) and calling me albert (aka stupid IDC how you explain it, this is the truth). When you slander me and call me stupid, I am not going to react politely to you. I also was misguided by the emotion of the moment to the point I did actually think you were scum. This is an internet forum in a game of lying. To expect people to believe that you were gone all that time without question is bullshit. You were a lurker, like it or not, and did not put in the same effort as others into this game. You made it next to impossible to get a read on you which is inherently anti-town and you voted based off emotion which was anti-town as well. I understand now that you really didn't have the time for this, and that is completely fine, but to tell me and fourface to shut up, because we were 1000x more active then you was not smart and not logical for forum mafia. Remember, you didn't believe I was cop, why should i have to believe you were actually not able to post?
Day 2 Fourface dies. He probably would have done really well this game so thats sad.
I started off continuing my emotional stupidity voting omnom (see I call myself stupid too). Then we argue a little more and Omnom *townslips* and I stubbornly ignore it at that exact moment.
Then Strongandbig and Marvel post cases on me (I broke down why they were bad *here*). To be completely honest in retrospect I should have been tipped off by this effort to scumhunt. However, at the time I was blinded by how not great the cases were, yet they were gaining traction.
I played extremely poorly at the beginning of day 2. I posted petty meaningless shit just to prove people wrong or hypocritical. I was completely blinded by my disgust with the faulty logic being used against me.
This all changed *here*. KB ninja'd the shit outta me with his awesome post but for me, this was when I started thinking logically. The worst thing was that I had a massive post on why hiropro was scum (I detailed it out in the obs qt) but I knew that calling him scum when he was voting with me on someone I had as 100% scum was probably not the best way to get mafia lynched lol. From this point forward I tried to convince people to vote with me on solohan. Unfortunately people were pretty tied to their "first mafia reads". I tried to argue why I was a bad lynch logically, and why solohan was scum logically. Both failed pretty hard. In all honesty Omnom was right in one respect in that I didn't have anyone's trust, which for a person like me who tries to take a lot of the emotion out of this game means very little. In retrospect, idk if I woulda changed much but I may have kept it in mind when trying to argue day 2.
I knew I was about to get lynched. In this time I was completely torn between Marvel and Hiropro to be solohan's scum buddy. Marvel was the one I decided on more outta rage then outta logic. Once again I did something stupid cause of emotions.
I get lynched. I lol @ the bad. I sad @ KB cause I know he's gon die.
Nigh 2/Day 3/Night 3
I group these together cause nothing really happened. KB got shot which meant Solohan HAD to be lynched. He flipped scum (shock!)
Then night 3 hiropro killed omnom. To be honest I think he shoulda no-killed or killed marvel.
Day 4
The entire day rested on Strongandbig deciding which argument to side with. The day looked like the cliche example of 2 people fighting over ownership of a dog by calling its name. I have said a bunch of times, I think strongandbig basically flipped a coin with who he was voting for because both sides brought such weak arguments to the table from his prospective. To be honest I would have liked strong to take a stance using his own argument and case, instead of just choosing between the 2. I don't mean this disrespectfully but Strong seemed to take the lazy way out (just choosing to follow 1 persons lead instead of coming to the decision on his own).
In the end Strong made the right decision to win the game. hurray!
Individual Breakdowns
Therapist - You were looking for the wrong qualities in mafia. Ironically you ended up defending one to the point that it got you lynched. Early votes provoke discussion and pressure people into talking, which is always a good thing. The early vote on hiropro should not have cleared me as town, but it did not deserve the response you and others gave. Grade - D
Fourface - You actually played very well this game. You made yourself clearly town, and occasionally posted logically sound shit. If you would drop the crazy side to you and just play straight up I think you could become a very very very good player. Grade - B+
Kohbee - I learned a lot from this game. First and foremost I need to calm down when being accused regardless of how terrible I think the argument against me is. There are so many unnecessary posts from me in this game. However me, KB and at the very end Marvel are why town won this game. Grade - A-
KharadBanar - At first I thought you were stupid townie. Then you came through with amazing logic and reads. Town's MVP for sure and by far the best player in this game IMO. Grade - A+
Solohan50 - Meh. You needed to get involved more. You only focused on basically nothing, and would almost always de-lurk immediately when called out. Grade - D
Omnommufins - You played this game like it was IRL mafia. This was your first and biggest mistake. While I have never played IRL mafia, I would be willing to beat its a lot less competitive and a lot more about the good time playing. I don't know how to grade your play because I don't think that you had the time or the right mindset for forum mafia. I don't know how to suggest improvement other than to point you to guides about forum mafia and suggesting that next time you play you make sure your schedule allows it and that you basically forget everything you know about IRL mafia. Grade - I (incomplete)
HiroPro - Up until the last day you played flawlessly. However you never really came out of your shell to try and show your towniness. Even up until the last minute you kinda had a nonchalant "im right" attitude which carried you to a last day lylo. If you had came at marvel with a fury on the last day I fully believe you would have won. You also realized early on that you need to separate yourself form Solohan, which I believe you did very well. Grade - A-
marvellosity - In retrospect, you did not play nearly as bad as I had remembered. You had a number of good posts, but you also lived and died by WIFOM logic. I would suggest you to stop predicting mafia action, and especially to stop using it as your argument to the rest of town. I know that you figured out hiropro at then end, but I hope that you understand you did not do an exceptional job of either proving you were town (so that SB could see your logic) or proving that Hiropro was scum. Grade - A-
strongandbig - I honestly didn't see too much of value to take away from this game. You basically saw me as aggressive, and equated that to scum (big no-no). After this you got stubborn, refused to listen to me, and saw all of my actions and posts through clouded lenses. I don't know how exactly you came to your final decision, but congrats it was a good one, and for that I can't grade you too low. Grade - C
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I appreciate the time you spent on this. However your utter failure to understand how the final day went down means you can't grasp the whole game properly. s&b was certainly a stronger player than you gave him credit for.
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listen, you can keep belittling my argument all you want and sweeping it under the rug but please don't tell me I fail to understand what happened.
I will put it this way. Lets say that Hiropro had decided to kill strongandbig and then the entire day screamed at omnom that he would have killed omnom for an easy win and that he would have to be stupid to have killed strongandbig. If it played out like the last day did, you would have been lynched and hiropro would have won using WIFOM logic.
I don't think that you realize that strongandbig did not KNOW you were town like you did.
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You knowing you were town was what made your logic sound.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On April 12 2012 00:33 Kohbee wrote: listen, you can keep belittling my argument all you want and sweeping it under the rug but please don't tell me I fail to understand what happened.
I will put it this way. Lets say that Hiropro had decided to kill strongandbig and then the entire day screamed at omnom that he would have killed omnom for an easy win and that he would have to be stupid to have killed strongandbig. If it played out like the last day did, you would have been lynched and hiropro would have won using WIFOM logic.
I don't think that you realize that strongandbig did not KNOW you were town like you did.
As mentioned before, you are the only one who fails to grasp it. Literally everyone else understands, you do not. That's it.
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I don't like being the last post on a page + Show Spoiler +Kohbee's Basic Summary of what went down (from my point of view cause im self centered like that) Day 1Day 1 started with Fourface's trolling plan. Nothing of game value was posted so anyone wanting to do scum hunting had to read solely into the tone of everyone's posting and not on the agenda behind it. I picked up on Hiropro here because his attempts to troll seemed forced and really well thought out. When I brought this discovery to light in the thread and voted for Hiropro's lynch. Therapist, not seeing things the same way I did, responded immediately, 2 posts after, that I was wrong and voted me. Because of this, Hiropro was never forced to respond for himself, and this pissed me off. This kind of soft defense in my mind spoke to two different options. The first is that therapist is defending his scum buddy and the second is that scum therapist knows hiropro is town and thinks he will gain town cred saving him. Other than this I cannot think of a good reason why a townie would defend someone over 1 vote early on day 1. Basically this is me not following my own advice of not expecting people to act the "right" way. This is why I called him scum and didn't want to talk to him. Hiropro seeing that Therapist, Strongandbig, and even KB (to a lesser extent) defending him was able to answer my pressure calmly and sensibly. Fourface sums it up nicely *here* and is extremely logical about the entire situation. Wait what, yes, yes I did just call Fourface posting logical. As the day progressed I saw that my voting of hiropro was going no where. If I had pushed it any harder people would have jumped on me harder and the last thing I wanted to do was get lynched as a cop. Hiropro also started sheeping me. This was another reason why I had to call him town so that I could continue getting him to vote with me. Then, towards the end of day 1 fourface and strongandbig are back voting for me again. Omnom's vote is based on fourface being an "asshole" and hiro and KB are with me on therapist. Seeing that there are 2 hours left, and I am a blue, I do what I believe is the only thing I have left, which is claim my role. All of a sudden the thread explodes, Marvel votes therapist, fourface switches to marvel, and I am saved. In all honesty when Therapist flipped town I wanted to post "and nothing of value was lost" but that would got me insta-lynched day 2 for being "aggressive". Night 1During the night I knew I wasn't going to be able to check anyone. You can see I tried to check hiropro, solohan and omnom LOL. I posted all my reads knowing I was going to be on the chopping block the next day. Marvel made a really really really good (yes I'm saying good things about you Marvel) post *here*. Then a bunch of nonsense was posted (i did like my post *here*) Then, at the top of page 22, hiropro posted that my reads were getting way worse. This is actually what opened my eyes to what was really going on. This was the best exchange for me in the whole thread and even though he was scum, this was extremely helpful. Then, Omnom and me started. To be honest I have no idea what I did to piss Omnom off so terribly, however Omnom's huge post began with a completely emotion based attack on me and fourface. Calling my actions unjustified (when I explained every one of them) and calling me albert (aka stupid IDC how you explain it, this is the truth). When you slander me and call me stupid, I am not going to react politely to you. I also was misguided by the emotion of the moment to the point I did actually think you were scum. This is an internet forum in a game of lying. To expect people to believe that you were gone all that time without question is bullshit. You were a lurker, like it or not, and did not put in the same effort as others into this game. You made it next to impossible to get a read on you which is inherently anti-town and you voted based off emotion which was anti-town as well. I understand now that you really didn't have the time for this, and that is completely fine, but to tell me and fourface to shut up, because we were 1000x more active then you was not smart and not logical for forum mafia. Remember, you didn't believe I was cop, why should i have to believe you were actually not able to post? Day 2Fourface dies. He probably would have done really well this game so thats sad. I started off continuing my emotional stupidity voting omnom (see I call myself stupid too). Then we argue a little more and Omnom *townslips* and I stubbornly ignore it at that exact moment. Then Strongandbig and Marvel post cases on me (I broke down why they were bad *here*). To be completely honest in retrospect I should have been tipped off by this effort to scumhunt. However, at the time I was blinded by how not great the cases were, yet they were gaining traction. I played extremely poorly at the beginning of day 2. I posted petty meaningless shit just to prove people wrong or hypocritical. I was completely blinded by my disgust with the faulty logic being used against me. This all changed *here*. KB ninja'd the shit outta me with his awesome post but for me, this was when I started thinking logically. The worst thing was that I had a massive post on why hiropro was scum (I detailed it out in the obs qt) but I knew that calling him scum when he was voting with me on someone I had as 100% scum was probably not the best way to get mafia lynched lol. From this point forward I tried to convince people to vote with me on solohan. Unfortunately people were pretty tied to their "first mafia reads". I tried to argue why I was a bad lynch logically, and why solohan was scum logically. Both failed pretty hard. In all honesty Omnom was right in one respect in that I didn't have anyone's trust, which for a person like me who tries to take a lot of the emotion out of this game means very little. In retrospect, idk if I woulda changed much but I may have kept it in mind when trying to argue day 2. I knew I was about to get lynched. In this time I was completely torn between Marvel and Hiropro to be solohan's scum buddy. Marvel was the one I decided on more outta rage then outta logic. Once again I did something stupid cause of emotions. I get lynched. I lol @ the bad. I sad @ KB cause I know he's gon die. Nigh 2/Day 3/Night 3I group these together cause nothing really happened. KB got shot which meant Solohan HAD to be lynched. He flipped scum (shock!) Then night 3 hiropro killed omnom. To be honest I think he shoulda no-killed or killed marvel. Day 4The entire day rested on Strongandbig deciding which argument to side with. The day looked like the cliche example of 2 people fighting over ownership of a dog by calling its name. I have said a bunch of times, I think strongandbig basically flipped a coin with who he was voting for because both sides brought such weak arguments to the table from his prospective. To be honest I would have liked strong to take a stance using his own argument and case, instead of just choosing between the 2. I don't mean this disrespectfully but Strong seemed to take the lazy way out (just choosing to follow 1 persons lead instead of coming to the decision on his own). In the end Strong made the right decision to win the game. hurray! Individual BreakdownsTherapist - You were looking for the wrong qualities in mafia. Ironically you ended up defending one to the point that it got you lynched. Early votes provoke discussion and pressure people into talking, which is always a good thing. The early vote on hiropro should not have cleared me as town, but it did not deserve the response you and others gave. Grade - DFourface - You actually played very well this game. You made yourself clearly town, and occasionally posted logically sound shit. If you would drop the crazy side to you and just play straight up I think you could become a very very very good player. Grade - B+Kohbee - I learned a lot from this game. First and foremost I need to calm down when being accused regardless of how terrible I think the argument against me is. There are so many unnecessary posts from me in this game. However me, KB and at the very end Marvel are why town won this game. Grade - A-KharadBanar - At first I thought you were stupid townie. Then you came through with amazing logic and reads. Town's MVP for sure and by far the best player in this game IMO. Grade - A+Solohan50 - Meh. You needed to get involved more. You only focused on basically nothing, and would almost always de-lurk immediately when called out. Grade - DOmnommufins - You played this game like it was IRL mafia. This was your first and biggest mistake. While I have never played IRL mafia, I would be willing to beat its a lot less competitive and a lot more about the good time playing. I don't know how to grade your play because I don't think that you had the time or the right mindset for forum mafia. I don't know how to suggest improvement other than to point you to guides about forum mafia and suggesting that next time you play you make sure your schedule allows it and that you basically forget everything you know about IRL mafia. Grade - I (incomplete)HiroPro - Up until the last day you played flawlessly. However you never really came out of your shell to try and show your towniness. Even up until the last minute you kinda had a nonchalant "im right" attitude which carried you to a last day lylo. If you had came at marvel with a fury on the last day I fully believe you would have won. You also realized early on that you need to separate yourself form Solohan, which I believe you did very well. Grade - A-marvellosity - In retrospect, you did not play nearly as bad as I had remembered. You had a number of good posts, but you also lived and died by WIFOM logic. I would suggest you to stop predicting mafia action, and especially to stop using it as your argument to the rest of town. I know that you figured out hiropro at then end, but I hope that you understand you did not do an exceptional job of either proving you were town (so that SB could see your logic) or proving that Hiropro was scum. Grade - A-strongandbig - I honestly didn't see too much of value to take away from this game. You basically saw me as aggressive, and equated that to scum (big no-no). After this you got stubborn, refused to listen to me, and saw all of my actions and posts through clouded lenses. I don't know how exactly you came to your final decision, but congrats it was a good one, and for that I can't grade you too low. Grade - C
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On April 12 2012 00:35 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:33 Kohbee wrote: listen, you can keep belittling my argument all you want and sweeping it under the rug but please don't tell me I fail to understand what happened.
I will put it this way. Lets say that Hiropro had decided to kill strongandbig and then the entire day screamed at omnom that he would have killed omnom for an easy win and that he would have to be stupid to have killed strongandbig. If it played out like the last day did, you would have been lynched and hiropro would have won using WIFOM logic.
I don't think that you realize that strongandbig did not KNOW you were town like you did.
As mentioned before, you are the only one who fails to grasp it. Literally everyone else understands, you do not. That's it. Can you please explain how my example doesn't add up?
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Also, KB is wrong in his logic that muffins would absolutely go after Hiropro. She said she was leaning his way but reserved the right to change her mind after re-reading filters. There is no guarantee at all that she would have targeted down on (or shown up to target) Hiropro.
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On April 12 2012 00:33 Kohbee wrote: listen, you can keep belittling my argument all you want and sweeping it under the rug but please don't tell me I fail to understand what happened.
I will put it this way. Lets say that Hiropro had decided to kill strongandbig and then the entire day screamed at omnom that he would have killed omnom for an easy win and that he would have to be stupid to have killed strongandbig. If it played out like the last day did, you would have been lynched and hiropro would have won using WIFOM logic.
I don't think that you realize that strongandbig did not KNOW you were town like you did.
So the reason I decided to vote with Marvellosity was because the night kill of omnom really made no sense from his point of view. He said that several times, but I was already thinking it. At first I thought it didn't make sense from Hiro's point of view either, so I wasn't sure what to do; Hiro had been building his case on omnom up for quite some time, and omnom looked *really scummy* at that point. However, I eventually became convinced that if Marvellosity was mafia, he could have won easily by killing me. Hiropro and omnommuffins had been accusing each other for days, and all he would have to do is watch the sparks fly. On the other hand, Hiropro knew I'd been suspicious of Marvellosity - largely based on your last post, Kohbee, and on the similarities between his and Solohan's interpretations of why Fourface died. So for Hiropro, killing omnom would set back his own case on the last day, but it would leave me alive and give him a chance to make a stronger case against Marvellosity.
Now, your only response when Marv and I explained this has been "that's wifom! Don't analyze night kills!" You keep saying that despite the fact that several veterans have come in here and said that in this case, analyzing the night kill made sense. I'll post this from the Mafia Wiki:
Many times analyzing night kills is considered WIFOM, as only the killers can say with certainty why someone died. This is especially true when the kill choices were unexpected. At present, NK analysis is considered simply another possibly-reliable piece of evidence, neither useless nor authoritative.
If you keep willfully ignoring this aspect of the game, your play will suffer from it. There are times when night kill analysis should be disregarded, and there are times when it should not.
I also had been suspicious of Hiro since day 1, when he reacted so passively to your accusation. However, you kept insisting that was a "town reaction." Eventually, I decided to just go with my gut on that (and with fourface, who said that Hiro was "playing scared").
Finally, I decided that there was no way that Solohan would link himself and his scum buddy like he did in the "if kohbee flips blue" post I quoted on the last day. From what I'd learned about Solohan's play reading his one-page filter a bajillion times, his play could be characterized as "trying to manipulate the town but doing so badly." His frame-up of you for killing fourface was bad; I voted for you in spite of that, thinking that if you were scum then Solohan and Marvellosity were just really bad townies. Ditto the aggressive posts he made against you on other parts of the day. It was totally in line for him to have posted what boils down to "hey guys! I know I'm gonna get bussed but when I do you shouldn't vote for Hiropro!"
I was hesitant to trust any of these pieces of evidence on its own, especially since Marvellosity's bandwagoning on day 1 and his posting similarities with Solohan on day two had already made me suspicious. However, all together they pushed me to vote for Hiropro.
Believe what you will, I did not just vote together with the person who was the most excited about it (or "called my name the loudest" or however you put it). That would have been a whole fucking lot easier to decide, and I wouldn't have had to sprint back from dinner when my phone ran out of batteries because I would have voted like five hours earlier.
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Oh and Kohbee - I didn't lock down on you because I thought you were too aggressive. I thought you were being aggressive in a way which shuts down discussion. Your comments like "I don't talk to scum" and your ridiculous flamewars with fourface were not the kind of aggression which makes good aggressive town play.
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Just skimmed the ending of this game due to interactions in TL LI; impressive job marvellosity, hope you stick around and play more.
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