Death Factory Mafia 2
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Okay so...I thought if you "end up" in a lethal position, you die. Do you mean if someone PoP's you onto that spot over the course of the day? | ||
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One thing I laughed about while reading the original DF was the implementation of a secondary voting system. Like, el oh el style laughed. There's a voting system already in the game - let's use that one to get information rather than come up with some convoluted secondary voting system that not only punishes participants (by limiting their PoPs in theory) but rewards people not participating (by making their PoPs actually meaningful). I'm not in favor of a secondary voting system. Just responsibly use your PoPs, that's all I ask. We haven't heard from everyone yet, I'm holding onto my thoughts on who's scum until we do. Thank you, and good day. | ||
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Do you have a problem with discussion Dirkzor? | ||
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My two cents. | ||
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On April 02 2012 01:46 syllogism wrote: Feel free, and in the process explain as to why you think so and why a "secondary" voting system is bad As it's been discussed already, there's no guarantee everyone would follow suit (regardless of alignment) and we can't just punish people who don't participate (because there's no guarantee that they're scum.) We can't force people to participate, and all it's going to do is cause confusion. The voting mechanic is confusing enough without adding ANOTHER mechanic into the game. You don't agree? | ||
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Looked at it from that perspective, people who are pulling Palmar to get the item still have a vote to kill at the end of the day (pushes). The only votes we'd be losing are people "pushing" Palmar to get him back to safety. Suddenly I like the idea of giving Palmar power to see what he does with it. Especially since I can still contribute to the lynch. ##pull: Palmar | ||
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In JubJub I had to make a king N1 or I would have died without being able to use the power. And he's claimed it's 1-shot too, so his results are going to be as useful now as they would later. I don't mind his claim at all. Now, it also makes sense from a scum perspective, but I haven't seen anything from BM yet that indicates that he's trying to manipulate town aside from the claim, which as I said, makes sense from a town perspective. So for now, I'm believing the claim until I'm forced not to. | ||
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On April 02 2012 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote: Why the hell would you do that when we know, if we want to kill someone who takes more than 10-12 pushes, that saving Palmar would be nearly impossible? Take Bluelightz, for example. To kill him would take 13 pushes AT LEAST. if he is scum, we might need 14 or 15 even, if there are hidden pulling mechanics. That leaves only 5 pushes to save Palmar if he is town. That ties up 18 pushes. That means anyone who doesn't push with the rest of town will cause us great problems and it unnecessarily restricts our ability to kill/save who we want to. Scum control 5 PoPs and there's no way we can guarantee all the town work together. Obviously we're going to have to prioritize, bugs. I'm not saying people further from death are immune to suspicion, quite the opposite - people in the middle should be under THE MOST scrutiny because they're the ones who will take the most effort to kill... But if you'll read my post, "pulling" Palmar isn't doing shit but remove my ability to either pull myself to safety or take a firm stance against a lynch or whatever - I can still "push" with the rest of town. | ||
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8 pulls | ||
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You're taking an awfully careful approach to this game bugs...are you just trying to avoid a mass-murder like DFM1 or is it something more sinister? | ||
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I don't "trust" Palmar, but I know he's smart/experienced enough to know what to do and what not to do with the item if he's town, so I "trust" that I'll be able to gauge his alignment based on how he acts with it. What do you suggest we do Wiggles? Wait for a confirmed town before we get the item? So do you suggest we kill BM to test his alignment to confirm myself and Snarfs so that one of us can get it? Does that not seem like a horrifying waste of PoPs to you? | ||
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I'm not acting "incredibly defensive", I'm trying get things done. Palmar volunteered to get the item, I'm okay with him getting the item, I made a move. If anything I'm being very proactive and decisive. If you want to try and cast my decisions in a scummy light, you're going to do a little more than twisting my words around to sound scummier than they are. From your post I assumed you wanted a confirmed townie to have the item - clearly I was mistaken. But when you say things like "we have no assurances" and "how do you know he can be trusted" it seems like you want something concrete, which means "confirmed townie". I mean, feel free to PoP me if you really want me dead Wiggles...but you doing so after only one "shady" post seems pretty hypocritical to me sir. | ||
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On April 02 2012 09:05 prplhz wrote: How about Tobon? Nothing in his filter even though he calls out for scum hunting, most of it is just pointing out random stuff and summarizing the thread. I'm not decided yet but he's looking pretty bad. Why are you asking about those three specifically? I have no idea why we are sending Palmar for that item. It's not really that powerful and we can still determine his alignment without him getting it (well, it wouldn't hurt if he would post a little more). wherebugsgo already pointed out potential dangers, scum could have a hidden PoP role, like a PoP Floridian Toy, and then they could pull (push) Palmar over the edge when he gets the item. killing one of the best town players. This is really risky and I'm totally against it and I think people should have thought more carefully about this before going through with it, and then they should have concluded that it wasn't worth it at all. "...and then they should have concluded that it wasn't worth it at all" Like, what does that even mean? You guys are boring me with all this walking on broken glass bullshit. Whatever, I'll just vote with town and let you guys PoP me to the edge for "trying to shirk responsibility for my actions" or something stupid. Enact whatever retarded "alternative voting system" you want. I won't be participating, but promise to vote for whoever you Jubs want to vote for. | ||
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What do you think sir? I'd like your thoughts on Syllogism, layabout and MrWiggles sir. WATCH ME AWAIT YOUR RESPONSE!!! | ||
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So do you think that the people who pulled Palmar are scum? Does you voicing your frustration help you find scum? Does it help me? Does it help town? Now, if Palmar is town, he'll use the item to help town. If he's not, then he'll use it to hurt town. Lucky for us, we get to be part of it either way because we know he got something and we have control over whether he lives or dies. And, with all this naysaying between Bugs and the Jubs, chances are Palmar will be back to contribute something before anyone lets him have the item, and he's only ONE push deep into the red-zone in the meantime. How about you just chill out and look for scum rather than get worked up over my actions? It'll be a blast, we can kill the scums TOGETHER! | ||
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come on bill | ||
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On April 02 2012 11:07 Bill Murray wrote: VE I understand what you're doing, but everyone has a role this game Me creating myself as a townie? Oh well, I'm looking to scumhunt anyways. Creating 2 town in the process if I get mislynched or killed is gravy on the potatoes. Got any leads you want to discuss rather than try and alter my playstyle? How do you feel about a Bluelightz lynch? Who else is pinging the ol' scumdar? | ||
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Anyone wanna check my math? | ||
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On April 02 2012 12:25 Tobon wrote: Hey! I've been off at Emerald City Comic-Con for the day, will read through and respond more in a bit. Thought I'd point out, though, that Nemesis's push of me didn't have the effect you'd expect. I skipped by spot 11. Which maybe makes Acrofales the double-wide big toy? Or Nemisis is a super-strong double-pushing toy. Very interesting. VERY. | ||
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Something's going on with you, I'm just sayin. I'M JUST SAYING GUY | ||
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##Push: Bluelightz | ||
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Wiggles, I don't know what you're doing, but your one piece of advice from last game was "let's make a conscious effort to not wind people up this game" and you seem to be attempting to wind me up. It's contradictory man, and I don't like it. And to all you lurkers out there... + Show Spoiler [I got somethin for ya] + | ||
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On April 02 2012 20:09 Palmar wrote: I do whatever I feel like without asking anyone in particular. I'm not sure who I want to kill for scum right now. Push Bluelightz. It's great fun. | ||
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On April 02 2012 20:09 Palmar wrote: I do whatever I feel like without asking anyone in particular. I'm not sure who I want to kill for scum right now. At least you're contributing to the hunt for scum though, AMIRITE? | ||
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On April 03 2012 01:42 Ace wrote: Yeeeah...so I'm simultaneously disturbed and excited about this picture. I don't know why. Okay, Bluelightz - by your estimation, the people who voted for you (because you're the "easy" target) are the most suspicious? What do you think about players like wherebugsgo and myself, players who voted for you for actual reasons and are actually interested in watching you burn? What do you think about Palmar's play so far? Perhaps you could pull him one step closer to the item? | ||
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But no, I'm out of PoP today. | ||
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FWEEEEEAKYYYY | ||
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D1 successful. | ||
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On April 03 2012 03:13 Bill Murray wrote: If Palmar uses his ability, I'm pushing Cephiro just sayin' If you mean that to be a threat, I'd probably "pull" him if I were you. Just sayin. | ||
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On April 03 2012 03:47 layabout wrote: @cephiro The thing is that Palmar has given us next to nothing to indicate one alignment over the other and killing him because you "do not trust him" is not justifiable. I am not suggesting we lynch wiggles, but i would like to know why VE and Palmar have suggested that. what has cascades done to make you want to lynch him? Nemesis: Do you really think that this was anything other than a throwaway Pop that does nothing to help town? + Show Spoiler + On April 02 2012 12:01 Nemesis wrote: Time to actually give out my scumreads so far: Right now I'm looking at Tobon. First thing he does is proposing the secondary voting system. While that by itself is not really scummy even though I disagree with it, his next posts I find are rather bad. Note how he takes an extremely neutral stance here. He finds Palmar suspicious for his role which is similar to a role in the previous game, but then he adds that it is unlikely that Ace would give scum the same roles. This sounds to me like a scum trying to put suspicion onto someone while avoiding responsibility for it. Again he stresses how we don't know Palmar's alignment. ##Push: Tobon Also, it's been almost 24 hours and risk.nuke and Sbrubbles have not posted at all. :/ If they don't post anytime soon, I'm all for lynching them too. Here he completely misrepresents wiggles to achieve _______ + Show Spoiler + On April 02 2012 12:15 Nemesis wrote: In here, you suggest taking the item. While when people were pushing Palmar to take the item, you are against it? Would you rather someone else took the item then? What kind of person are you looking for to take the item then? People just chose palmar because he was the closest to it(so we waste less PoP) and he volunteered. Anyways I'm off for now, nighty night. Wiggles is a smart guy. Like, super smart. He knows how voting works, and Bugs was insisting that it took 13 pushes to kill Bluelightz at the beginning of his push. A town Wiggles would have corrected Bugs I think, immediately. I only realized it later, but Wiggles is much smarter than me. Combined with the fact that his first bit of advice from playing in the original DFM was "let's try not to anger each other" when it's appeared (at least to me) that he's been trying to get a rise out of me for most of his later posting. That's my reasoning for wanting to off Wiggles. | ||
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<3 | ||
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On April 03 2012 04:01 syllogism wrote: But mafia only has one standard KP, so "confirming" several players at once on day 1 seems ridiculously powerful Having one "standard" KP in a game like this itself is ridiculously powerful syllo, pull the other one. | ||
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On April 03 2012 04:03 layabout wrote: But VE, after WBG made that mistake both you and i corrected it before wiggles even posted. Why would he point it out again? What I'm saying is that he would have corrected it before we did...he had posted, and he reads the thread. | ||
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The role isn't unreasonable at all, considering the claims that have already been made. What about risk.nuke, he has the capability to confirm a large amount of people too. So is his power to powerful to exist? | ||
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Let's lynch BM! | ||
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Nevermind guys, false alarm. | ||
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I was referring to the number of pulls to pull Blue off the back of the board...not correcting the number of pushes to get him into the zone in that post. But no, you're not missing anything there. The fact that Bugs didn't respond to your correction and Wiggles didn't even notice it is just as damning in my opinion. But it doesn't matter ultimately because I've used my PoP's this cycle. I'm just putting that out there. And this is only part of my reasoning anyway - the other part is his contradictory behavior. If you don't agree laya it's cool - if I'm right, he'll continue to exhibit other suspicious behavior. | ||
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On April 03 2012 04:19 Tobon wrote: Also, welcome to nearly confirmed town-hood, Cephiro! It's remotely possible that you AND one of Syllo and Sbrubbles are red, but the odds are incredibly against it. What does this mean? | ||
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So yeah, if we want to save Palmar now's the time guys...but I don't know if we can get a coordinated enough effort to do it. We'd need exactly 5 pushes and 2 pulls to save Palmar, and however many pulls to flip one of risk's redskis. | ||
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On April 03 2012 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote: I can save Palmar with my power, but it would require dumb amounts of PoPs. I won't say if I think it's worth it or not. *shrug* | ||
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Or am I? | ||
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So I believe that Palmar is town and scum want him dead. But your mileage may vary. If you believe like I do, and you want to save Palmar, get in here and say something so we can get it done. | ||
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Push me bro. | ||
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You have been warned. PoP at your own risk. | ||
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On April 03 2012 05:49 Acrofales wrote: Hey VE, I'll help get Palmar out of there, but it has to happen in the next hour or so, because then I'm going to bed. I wish my ability could be used during the day: I have an easier way to get him out, but it can only be used at night :S Just push me bro - we got this | ||
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On April 03 2012 06:34 layabout wrote: ##tell acro to push VE Acro has I think... | ||
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Hmmmmmm.......oh I my brain blocked out the humorous part of that statement. Do you think both Palmar and myself are scum? Or just one of us? | ||
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On April 03 2012 06:47 wherebugsgo wrote: Based on current posting I'd say it's actually pretty likely syllo is the scum out of those 3. I think I agree here...his logic seems based on what would be balanced from a scum perspective, which worries me. Also the others seem to be interested in helping out our super-pro-town rescue mission while syllo is stoic as ever. | ||
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On April 03 2012 06:49 Cephiro wrote: You do realize that a guessing game is not very optimal for us, if we flip a coin to see what happens, in the worst case scenario once you got Palmar on your back, then we could mistakenly push you to the item (which doesn't seem that bad), but that would give scum the possibility of getting you both killed instantly. Especially since they may very well have hidden or extra PoP. Is there a chance you could confirm from the mod what happens in such a situation? (Palmar on your back and you get PoP'd) I'm trusting my logic here Ceph - while you're right, it's a guess, it's an educated guess based on logic. | ||
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On April 03 2012 07:10 Cephiro wrote: I think it might be smarter if Nemesis is around if we get one more push on you, so that we could do X's push, my push, you take Palmar, and Nemesis pulls you out. And I could still use my pull as a buffer, or then to try and get someone killed. Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. | ||
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Palmar has claimed "nullified" rendering him not able to be PoP'd...so I'm going on a rescue mission to save him. We need 2 pushes for me to be able to do this, and you should ask before acting to make sure you're not pushing me to death or something (unless that's your intent ). If we're able to pull this off, we need to decide who to kill between Cephiro, Sbubbles and syllogism. It's going to be an eventful few hours guys. | ||
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Syllo is a good lynch in my opinion - his argumentation has been based solely on outguessing the mod and setup speculation, which is poor play and not what I'd expect from syllogism (although he's knowledgeable enough to do it as town too )...his general apathy toward actually finding scum makes me tend toward sylloScum. Cephiro is onboard the Palmar rescue effort, which gives him points in my book, and his play hasn't like, REEKED of scum...I'm not sure how I feel about a Ceph lynch although he'd be the easiest bet being closest to the edge. | ||
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On April 03 2012 08:03 Cephiro wrote: Still waiting for someone to come up with a push on you, and for people to tell their opinions about today's pull-lynch possibility. It should be even possible to get a push-lynch on top of that. If we have enough pushes after the rescue mission (which hopefully will succeed), I'd suggest for cascades to be pushed into the flames. For the pull I stand by what I said earlier, I know that syllo or sbrubbles, or even both of them are scum, so I am fine with either. If one flips town, I know the other is scum for sure. (Well, there is a possibility that risk.nuke fakeclaimed, but in my opinion that is extremely unlikely.) Why do people want you dead Ceph? I'd go back and look, but I'd like to know your take on it. | ||
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Re: syllo - In a game where there's death around every corner by the way the queue is designed, not even factoring in possible powers, I don't buy the "imbalance" part of syllo's argument. Now, BM DID skip some spots on the queue, which corroborates the rest of his claim until proven otherwise through his actions (or inactions)...so for the time being, I believe him, though to a lesser degree than risk.nuke who has either designed a really elaborate fake-claim that involves the mod or actually is what he claims. Re: Cephiro - Yeah, I'm just throwing that in there because it's a factor in my reads...it's not substantial, but it's what I'm going on...he's actively playing for town if he's scum, and I'm okay with that right now. | ||
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What about the assertion that syllogism has done very little to actually find scum? | ||
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Word that son. Pull away Nemesis. | ||
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On April 03 2012 09:53 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you think about Wiggles, Bugs? On April 03 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: Same question to you prplhz. Sup? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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On April 02 2012 09:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote: No, I don't think someone needs to be confirmed to get the item, but I think that we should see how they post, and get an idea of what their alignment is. There's a difference between judging someone to be town based off their posts, and just blindly trusting them. I think the best indicator of his alignment would be him posting, but he's not doing that, so there's absolutely no reason to think he's town. How he uses the item won't even tell us very much about his alignment either, in my opinion, and that's if he even tells you what it is. It's easy to think of ways to use the items that look pro-town, but don't actually benefit us. I find it interesting that when I ask a question about why you trust Palmar enough to give him the item, you make gross exaggerations and act incredibly defensive about it. I didn't suggest someone has to be confirmed to be eligible to get the item, and I didn't suggest to flip anyone to try to confirm people, or to waste our PoP's getting the item with someone far up the queue. Why did you jump to being so irrationally defensive and using exaggerated rhetoric when I asked you a simple question, VE? @WBG: I'm not exactly sure who I want to kill right now. Based off this last post, and thinking that giving Palmar an item because he asked for it is the most pro-town thing we could do, maybe VE. Or, based on his complete lack of effort, we could flip Palmar. What do you think of Palmar and VE, WBG? I see you linked a couple people who haven't posted and said you want to kill them, so what do you think of Palmar with his one post? The bolded paragraph is what I'm referring to - I was just trying to get at what you meant when talking about "trusting Palmar enough with the item" or whatever. It seemed strange to me that you thought we should wait for someone "trustworthy" to go for the item, especially considering how deep into the incineration zone one would have to go to GET the item. Your response was accusatory - language like "gross exaggerations", "irrationally defensive" and "exaggerated rhetoric" all seem designed to be inflammatory. Am I just reading too much into it or something? | ||
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And where the EFF did Bugs go? Why am I the only one around 2 hours from deadline?! | ||
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-.- | ||
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Beyond pushing Palmar hard for contributions (which EVERYONE should be doing tomorrow) what do you think we should be looking at first when deciding who to feed to the flames? | ||
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On April 03 2012 11:50 Snarfs wrote: I think one thing stands out the most in Wiggles' filter: Aside from the parts you made bold, he's being very diplomatic. He uses the word 'silly' to push Palmar and risk.nuke... hardly putting pressure on if that's what was intended. Doesn't outright say what he's thinking here. Fair enough, need them to post more, but again not really taking a stance. Again, it just seems kind of... weak. Like he's not trying to actually pressure anyone or find any scum. Looking at JubJub day 1, he seems a little more aggressive and more willing to call people out for doing dumb things. To be fair, everything you just said points toward a scumWiggles - scum are going to say things you agree with...if they didn't, they'd be really easy to find every game wouldn't they? But fair enough, thank you for your thoughts sir. Keep everything you just said in mind tomorrow. etc. I wouldn't put him at the top of my scum list though because I've agreed with some of the points he actually has made (ie. there was no reason to assume Palmar was the best person to get the item, people shouldn't necessarily have been tossing claims out) AND I think that some people who have played more games with him will be better judges than I can be of his behaviour. | ||
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On April 03 2012 11:50 Snarfs wrote: I think one thing stands out the most in Wiggles' filter: Aside from the parts you made bold, he's being very diplomatic. He uses the word 'silly' to push Palmar and risk.nuke... hardly putting pressure on if that's what was intended. Doesn't outright say what he's thinking here. Fair enough, need them to post more, but again not really taking a stance. Again, it just seems kind of... weak. Like he's not trying to actually pressure anyone or find any scum. Looking at JubJub day 1, he seems a little more aggressive and more willing to call people out for doing dumb things. etc. I wouldn't put him at the top of my scum list though because I've agreed with some of the points he actually has made (ie. there was no reason to assume Palmar was the best person to get the item, people shouldn't necessarily have been tossing claims out) AND I think that some people who have played more games with him will be better judges than I can be of his behaviour. To be fair, everything you just said points toward a scumWiggles - scum are going to say things you agree with...if they didn't, they'd be really easy to find every game wouldn't they? But fair enough, thank you for your thoughts sir. Keep everything you just said in mind tomorrow. | ||
VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ... | ||
VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Le sigh. GG scum. Syllo, I'll get you lynched next time. I SWEAR IT!!!! *oldmanfist* Wiggles, I'm not sure what I was thinking. I still like ur face. | ||
VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Why in a game where it's possible for everyone to die at once is it poor role design to have a role that could possibly confirm 5 people? Especially when it's so unlikely that it could even happen when the positions are randomly generated, why does it seem "imbalanced" to have a role that can confirm that many people? The other thing, as I'm sure you've heard or thought of because you're like super-smart, is that it doesn't work like other DT checks in that if there's 5 people around him and the light's red, it's really actually kinda anti-town in that it could be 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 scum around him...which is the exact odds of there being scum around him IN THE FIRST PLACE unless I'm mistaken...only worse for the rest of town because they don't know if they can actually trust the claim. As I said in the game, I think you're view is biased on that role because you got caught in the red light. ROXANNE | ||
VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Town with VE Dead In spite of him being totally useless, I don't regret putting myself on the line to save Palmar. Not only did my actions reveal mafia members, but we forced their night-kill as well meaning they didn't kill a town-PR who actually had the potential to do something. I hope the new players don't come away from this thinking they were mocked or something for being so bad - I hope they take away from it just how important it is to read the thread and to really understand what's going on. Even a normal game of Mafia isn't something you can just come in, once-over the current page and comment on, and this was from its very inception designed to be MUCH harder than a normal game of Mafia. Thanks again Ace for hosting, I really did enjoy this game. | ||
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