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On February 16 2012 11:07 redFF wrote:
But then we have to go back to the point about what is and isn't acceptable.
I think calling someone an idiot and cursing is perfectly acceptable.
I assume you are talking about a significant amount of it. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone cursing one time.
There's a reason people complain about it. It ruins the atmosphere of the games and raises the overall anger level in the game. And what does it add to the game? Absolutely nothing. It isn't right that a few people should be able to ruin the game experience for everyone else for something that has no positive or useful effect on the game at all.
The ONLY strategic effect I could see it having on a game is to put a player on tilt so they reveal something about their alignment. However, that generally leads to those players leaving the forum. It isn't worth it to lose good players over something like that.
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On February 16 2012 11:21 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:07 redFF wrote:
But then we have to go back to the point about what is and isn't acceptable.
I think calling someone an idiot and cursing is perfectly acceptable. I assume you are talking about a significant amount of it. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone cursing one time. There's a reason people complain about it. It ruins the atmosphere of the games and raises the overall anger level in the game. And what does it add to the game? Absolutely nothing. It isn't right that a few people should be able to ruin the game experience for everyone else for something that has no positive or useful effect on the game at all. The ONLY strategic effect I could see it having on a game is to put a player on tilt so they reveal something about their alignment. However, that generally leads to those players leaving the forum. It isn't worth it to lose good players over something like that.
I disagree, it's a play style, just like making only wall posts is a playstyle.
If someone only posts huge blocks of useless text, which makes people angry because they have to read a bunch of useless shit, and has no positive or useful effect on the game, should we ban that?
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On February 16 2012 11:23 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:21 Qatol wrote:On February 16 2012 11:07 redFF wrote:
But then we have to go back to the point about what is and isn't acceptable.
I think calling someone an idiot and cursing is perfectly acceptable. I assume you are talking about a significant amount of it. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone cursing one time. There's a reason people complain about it. It ruins the atmosphere of the games and raises the overall anger level in the game. And what does it add to the game? Absolutely nothing. It isn't right that a few people should be able to ruin the game experience for everyone else for something that has no positive or useful effect on the game at all. The ONLY strategic effect I could see it having on a game is to put a player on tilt so they reveal something about their alignment. However, that generally leads to those players leaving the forum. It isn't worth it to lose good players over something like that. I disagree, it's a play style, just like making only wall posts is a playstyle. If someone only posts huge blocks of useless text, which makes people angry because they have to read a bunch of useless shit, and has no positive or useful effect on the game, should we ban that?
Those examples have two different goals though. The purpose of excessive cursing/name calling is to make someone angry. The purpose of posting walls of texts is to make it look like you are doing work.
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I disagree. They both have the purpose of furthering your wincon, at least from the player doing it's point of view.
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On February 16 2012 11:23 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:21 Qatol wrote:On February 16 2012 11:07 redFF wrote:
But then we have to go back to the point about what is and isn't acceptable.
I think calling someone an idiot and cursing is perfectly acceptable. I assume you are talking about a significant amount of it. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone cursing one time. There's a reason people complain about it. It ruins the atmosphere of the games and raises the overall anger level in the game. And what does it add to the game? Absolutely nothing. It isn't right that a few people should be able to ruin the game experience for everyone else for something that has no positive or useful effect on the game at all. The ONLY strategic effect I could see it having on a game is to put a player on tilt so they reveal something about their alignment. However, that generally leads to those players leaving the forum. It isn't worth it to lose good players over something like that. I disagree, it's a play style, just like making only wall posts is a playstyle. If someone only posts huge blocks of useless text, which makes people angry because they have to read a bunch of useless shit, and has no positive or useful effect on the game, should we ban that?
Does said player know its useless? are they trying to contribute?
Seriously dude, I am near one of the most aggressive players on this forum, and the attitude you suggest is inappropriate once the mod says stop. There are ways to put people on tilt without resorting to insults or being a total asshole. People get heated, shit happens and overall if its not a huge ongoing thing hosts are fine. The moment it becomes your main style its an issue.
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On February 16 2012 10:20 Ver wrote:
The other problem is while like syllo said individual bans/warnings are no big deal at all, there's no way to get rid of them over time and stuff compounds. So let's say even if RoL's ban wasn't deserved, if he just mans up and accepts it, then gets slapped with another undeserved one down the road even years later, he has to sit out 3 games which gets annoying. I know there's been talk about doing something about this before but nothing got solved and there's no reason why that should be put off any longer. Either a straight system of warnings/bans go away after something like 3/5 or people talk about it, but there's no reason to keep bans permanent.
I think behavior-type bans should be changed to a time based system. Unlike inactivity bans, where sitting out games is supposed to show that you are committed and wont go inactive again, there is no benefit to formally sitting out games for behavior bans. Mostly, in those dramatic situations, people just need some time to cool off. Time bans wouldn't be too difficult to implement, all you'd have to do is put a time stamp on every behavior ban, and leave it up to the player in question to post in the thread to get their name off the list.
Behavior bans and inactivity bans quite frankly have no correlation, but right now they're treated as if they are. (Ban lengths go up regardless what the original reasons were). This shouldn't be the case. I have no problem with increasing ban lengths for inactivity bans, but it just doesn't make sense for behavior bans. If you are banned multiple times for behavior, chances are you have bigger issues, or that TL bans are deserved. And with GMarshal as banling now, hopefully the inappropriate behavior can tone down.
Warnings and behavior bans should just be time based. After a set amount of time they go away (provided the player in question reminds the ban list moderator to change the record). Simple, easy to implement, and doesn't much administrative overhead. As for how bans are handed out, I dont really care what institutions are in place as long as the people making the decisions are being reasonable. That's the most important part.
As for appropriate in game behavior, I really don't like the idea that "its just a game, I should be able to act however I want". Contrary to what you may think, being an asshole in game doesn't actually produce results. Its fine to be aggressive, but you can certainly do so without personally attacking people. When people are strongly convicted by a certain idea, they tend to take ownership of it. If you attack their ideas, they will feel as if you were actually attacking them personally. Of course, no personal attacks actually take place, but it has the desired effect of having the other person react. You don't have to attack someone personally to play the game of mafia, and I think its been a bad thing that we've let this philosophy seep into the forum culture. Bad atmosphere has frequently made games unpleasant to play in, and have driven many people away from the site. Its not that difficult to show respect to other players, and it really isnt such a limiting factor that some people make it out to be.
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Well yes if the mod warns you then you should stop. I'm trying to figure out where that line should be.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 16 2012 11:30 redFF wrote:
Well yes if the mod warns you then you should stop. I'm trying to figure out where that line should be.
Maybe that line should be determined by each mod, and if you don't stop and you get modkilled, THEN and only then GM will step in after the game is over and evaluate if a TL ban is neccessary?
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On February 16 2012 11:30 redFF wrote:
Well yes if the mod warns you then you should stop. I'm trying to figure out where that line should be.
somewhere when the level of aggression turns from "you are posting stupid nonsensical arguments that are only hurting the game" to "you are a total retard, stop posting as you make my eyes bleed"
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On February 16 2012 11:15 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:11 prplhz wrote:
I think forum wide bans for anything done in a game of mafia is absolutely unnecessary and a very bad idea. Modkill them and then if they still act up when they've been modkilled, then swing the hammer. Getting 2 days forum wide for calling somebody a moron is ludicrous, and I've been called moron my fair share of times. Go try it in sc2 strategy and see if you get away with it :-P Bans would be for over the top stuff or when someone does it repeatedly after being asked to stop. I don't mind being called stupid repeatedly, but it drives newbies away, and its unacceptable on the rest of tl, so if a host feels the need to enforce rules against it in his game, and a player refuses to listen, I have no issue banning.
But this isn't the StarCraft 2 Strategy sub forum, we also don't have to post replays with every question we ask.
The mafia sub forum has, as far as I understood it, always enjoyed some autonomy because it's generally accepted that it's perfectly normal for discussions to get heated in this game. Mafia is a role playing game and sometimes it is advantageous for you to play the role of an asshole. If a host wants to host a game where people don't swear, or whatever, then he can just put a rule in the OP about it and start handing out warnings and modkills. This will fix the issue right there. I have no idea why you think it is a good idea with forum wide bans for anything done in-game.
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United States22154 Posts
On February 16 2012 11:44 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:15 GMarshal wrote:On February 16 2012 11:11 prplhz wrote:
I think forum wide bans for anything done in a game of mafia is absolutely unnecessary and a very bad idea. Modkill them and then if they still act up when they've been modkilled, then swing the hammer. Getting 2 days forum wide for calling somebody a moron is ludicrous, and I've been called moron my fair share of times. Go try it in sc2 strategy and see if you get away with it :-P Bans would be for over the top stuff or when someone does it repeatedly after being asked to stop. I don't mind being called stupid repeatedly, but it drives newbies away, and its unacceptable on the rest of tl, so if a host feels the need to enforce rules against it in his game, and a player refuses to listen, I have no issue banning. But this isn't the StarCraft 2 Strategy sub forum, we also don't have to post replays with every question we ask. The mafia sub forum has, as far as I understood it, always enjoyed some autonomy because it's generally accepted that it's perfectly normal for discussions to get heated in this game. Mafia is a role playing game and sometimes it is advantageous for you to play the role of an asshole. If a host wants to host a game where people don't swear, or whatever, then he can just put a rule in the OP about it and start handing out warnings and modkills. This will fix the issue right there. I have no idea why you think it is necessary with forum wide bans for anything done in-game.
I'm not talking about banning someone for saying "you moron" or "fuck" once or twice or twelve times, I'm looking at people like grtrs in SNMMIV, where he was entirely out of line and didn't get modkilled because I was way too conservative about it, but he should have. Again, host discretion, I'm not going to go into a thread during the game and ban anyone, but if post game a host wants me to look into it, I will.
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On February 16 2012 10:34 GMarshal wrote:
Fuck it, new plan, I motion to make myself the sinister overlord of the mafia forums.
Behavioral issues? In addition to game bans, you get time of TL, just like behavioral issues on other parts of the forums, its handled like on the rest of tl its based on your history and moderator discretion, in addition to whatever public discussion decides, with me having the final word.
Keep the inactivity bans the way they currently work, but bans expire after three games played. Its the players responsibility to notify the ban list moderator to have them removed.
I 100% support this over the proposed council.
On February 16 2012 11:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:30 redFF wrote:
Well yes if the mod warns you then you should stop. I'm trying to figure out where that line should be. Maybe that line should be determined by each mod, and if you don't stop and you get modkilled, THEN and only then GM will step in after the game is over and evaluate if a TL ban is neccessary?
I think this is best.
I honestly can't believe there is a debate about aggressive play styles going on. Depending on your particualr personality, alignment, role, and your relations with other people in the game (aka meta), being aggressive to the point of ALMOST crossing a line is not just normal but it can be even classified as good play. I think Palmar said it really well when he said its like a role playing game.
With that said, that role ends when you leave the game thread or when the game ends.
The only time I have ever even considered something had maybe crossed the line was when Redff posted in multiple threads after a game was done about a problem he had with iGrok in a way that was not 'civil'. Even then, I don't think it was a big deal and as I predicted it passed QUICKLY with time.
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On February 16 2012 11:44 prplhz wrote:
The mafia sub forum has, as far as I understood it, always enjoyed some autonomy because it's generally accepted that it's perfectly normal for discussions to get heated in this game.
This is not true. The real reason why the mafia subforum has had more autonomy is because it was originally a private forum. You had to ask for access to be able to even see it. As a result, TL mafia was a small closely knit community, where we didnt need large scale moderation to keep things reasonable. The fact that everyone knew each other was generally enough to keep things from getting out of control.
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yeah gtrsrs was a douchecanoe
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On February 16 2012 11:47 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:44 prplhz wrote:On February 16 2012 11:15 GMarshal wrote:On February 16 2012 11:11 prplhz wrote:
I think forum wide bans for anything done in a game of mafia is absolutely unnecessary and a very bad idea. Modkill them and then if they still act up when they've been modkilled, then swing the hammer. Getting 2 days forum wide for calling somebody a moron is ludicrous, and I've been called moron my fair share of times. Go try it in sc2 strategy and see if you get away with it :-P Bans would be for over the top stuff or when someone does it repeatedly after being asked to stop. I don't mind being called stupid repeatedly, but it drives newbies away, and its unacceptable on the rest of tl, so if a host feels the need to enforce rules against it in his game, and a player refuses to listen, I have no issue banning. But this isn't the StarCraft 2 Strategy sub forum, we also don't have to post replays with every question we ask. The mafia sub forum has, as far as I understood it, always enjoyed some autonomy because it's generally accepted that it's perfectly normal for discussions to get heated in this game. Mafia is a role playing game and sometimes it is advantageous for you to play the role of an asshole. If a host wants to host a game where people don't swear, or whatever, then he can just put a rule in the OP about it and start handing out warnings and modkills. This will fix the issue right there. I have no idea why you think it is necessary with forum wide bans for anything done in-game. I'm not talking about banning someone for saying "you moron" or "fuck" once or twice or twelve times, I'm looking at people like grtrs in SNMMIV, where he was entirely out of line and didn't get modkilled because I was way too conservative about it, but he should have. Again, host discretion, I'm not going to go into a thread during the game and ban anyone, but if post game a host wants me to look into it, I will.
If you're not going to ban for "fuck you" or "moron" and you have to go all the way back to a game like SNMMIV to find something you would forum wide ban for, and you're going to get host's approval for it first, then it's not really a problem with me. I still think that big part of the problem was that the host was too lenient, even considering that hosting is difficult business (like what happened in XLVII with the Ace-betting-controversy).
It would really suck to go all the way through a game without getting warned/modkilled and then host asks GMarshal to give you 30 days forum wide because you said something in the game that host just let slip for the moment but kinda still wanted to punish you for.
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United States22154 Posts
On February 16 2012 12:03 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:47 GMarshal wrote:On February 16 2012 11:44 prplhz wrote:On February 16 2012 11:15 GMarshal wrote:On February 16 2012 11:11 prplhz wrote:
I think forum wide bans for anything done in a game of mafia is absolutely unnecessary and a very bad idea. Modkill them and then if they still act up when they've been modkilled, then swing the hammer. Getting 2 days forum wide for calling somebody a moron is ludicrous, and I've been called moron my fair share of times. Go try it in sc2 strategy and see if you get away with it :-P Bans would be for over the top stuff or when someone does it repeatedly after being asked to stop. I don't mind being called stupid repeatedly, but it drives newbies away, and its unacceptable on the rest of tl, so if a host feels the need to enforce rules against it in his game, and a player refuses to listen, I have no issue banning. But this isn't the StarCraft 2 Strategy sub forum, we also don't have to post replays with every question we ask. The mafia sub forum has, as far as I understood it, always enjoyed some autonomy because it's generally accepted that it's perfectly normal for discussions to get heated in this game. Mafia is a role playing game and sometimes it is advantageous for you to play the role of an asshole. If a host wants to host a game where people don't swear, or whatever, then he can just put a rule in the OP about it and start handing out warnings and modkills. This will fix the issue right there. I have no idea why you think it is necessary with forum wide bans for anything done in-game. I'm not talking about banning someone for saying "you moron" or "fuck" once or twice or twelve times, I'm looking at people like grtrs in SNMMIV, where he was entirely out of line and didn't get modkilled because I was way too conservative about it, but he should have. Again, host discretion, I'm not going to go into a thread during the game and ban anyone, but if post game a host wants me to look into it, I will. If you're not going to ban for "fuck you" or "moron" and you have to go all the way back to a game like SNMMIV to find something you would forum wide ban for, and you're going to get host's approval for it first, then it's not really a problem with me. I still think that big part of the problem was that the host was too lenient, even considering that hosting is difficult business (like what happened in XLVII with the Ace-betting-controversy). It would really suck to go all the way through a game without getting warned/modkilled and then host asks GMarshal to give you 30 days forum wide because you said something in the game that host just let slip for the moment but kinda still wanted to punish you for.
I'm not going to do whatever the host asks, lol, I'm going to look at it if the host asks and use my judgement, but the host only gets to call me in, I'm not 30 day banning because a host is peeved if its not appropriate.
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Stop the trolling the guys; this is an honest effort to improve our forum. This forum should be a place where masterminds and geniuses meet to play a competitive game. The responses in this thread heavily indicate what kind of community this has become though, and that's not something to be proud of.
This is a forum that has origins in Fakesteve, Caller, and other colourful personalities. I agree the need for greater moderation with increase in members, but I hate it when people argue having fun as sign of deterioration in community. Moreover satire is an acceptable form of expressing dissent; to my knowledge none of us have decided to troll about the council whilst not believing the idea to be hopelessly and unnecessarily complicated.
I understand the problem of letting host have the final say on punishment, but I believe the community have so far been successful in reigning the impulsive decisions into place. When their choice is ambiguous enough to be widely controversial (no majority concensus), I see no problem with letting host have the final decision. Note that I am not granting ANYONE the absolute authority. The mod should be over-ridden if they stay dogmatic even if most of the community argue for alternative option. I have enough faith on current players to rise against blatant abuses.
Also about GMarshal's post, I find myself beffudled. Has not been obvious that people's behaviour on this thread is also subject to moderation? I personally considered reporting redFF's post when his misbehaviour was at its peak. Why raise GMarshal to pedestral of absolute authority in order to do it? Just report him or, if you feel uncomfortable about bringing the matter up to 'outsider', Just complain to GMarshal if you feel that the player's behavior is unsuitable for standards of the community, don't see the need to raise him to the pedestal of absolute leader.
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So basically Flamewheel becomes a team of 5?
That's all I could really see this council achieving...
Honestly, it works as it is.
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On February 16 2012 12:13 Hesmyrr wrote:
Also about GMarshal's post, I find myself beffudled. Has not been obvious that people's behaviour on this thread is also subject to moderation? I personally considered reporting redFF's post when his misbehaviour was at its peak. Why raise GMarshal to pedestral of absolute authority in order to do it? Just report him or, if you feel uncomfortable about bringing the matter up to 'outsider', complain to GMarshal that the player's behavior is unsuitable for standards of the community. From the model OP:Reporting posts:
The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Reporting posts is not exactly the M.O. here.
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EPT
