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Hiroruby
United States43 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:29 Kenpachi wrote: real long day ok. hi i am Kenpachi and i am a Townie welcome to TL mafia to those who are just starting and i hope you have a good time here. Thanks, I'll do my best! I too am a townie, kind of glad since I don't have to figure out how to use special abilities and such. | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
GLHF Everyone!:D | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:55 LSB wrote: LAL?come to think about it, that does seem like a nice icebreaker. So everyone! How about lets talk about how you think mafia should be played, the importance of blues, what should we do with lurkers, and what majority lynch means. For your point on LAL, unless I have misread the OP, we only know what abilities are possible, not which are actually in the game, how they may have been combined into roles, nor how many of the role there may be. So, unless we have a cop of some variety, I don't know how you intend to find liars in this game. So were you just stating that as a general "in mafia games" rule, or did you have something in mind for this game in particular? I'd be interested in hearing how you intend to determine the liars given the setup. Claiming... As far as claiming goes though, I don't know what this implies, but from the OP: Furthermore, there may be dangers in store for town players who claim their role. I wonder whether this applies only to true claims, or to false claims as well...? And it also specifies a danger for [i]town players[i], not everyone, hmm...Lurkers and lynching As for lurkers, when I first saw the voting system I was wondering about a strategy in which we just lynch them en masse day two or something like that since we are allowed to lynch more than one a day and then we just don't have to deal with them, but then I noticed this: There are hazards in store for the town that lynches too many players in a particular day. That being said, the threat of some form of policy lynch for lurking may still be viable, depending on the number of lurkers we end up with and the threshold for triggering the "hazards". It would certainly be nice to avoid having to be in LYLO or MYLO with people who post once or twice a day though. And the threat of getting lynched solely for lurking might encourage people to contribute a bit more. I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this, especially given that if we lynch too many people in a day it sounds like something will go awry. Policy lynch below a certain activity level? Y/N? If we decide to do it, we can work out from there what kind of limits to set on lurker lynches/day and what the threshold is. I'd personally vote for no more than one lurker lynch a day, for fear of the hazards.On a related topic, do we want to set a limit in general for lynches per day? I would presume one a day is safe, but what about two or three? Personally I think I'm fine sticking to one a day unless we have pretty good evidence against multiple players, or decide to policy lynch a lurker a day in addition to a normal lynch or something of that sort. That way we will maximize the time we have to discuss things, presumably improving our odds of catching scum. I'm obviously open to hearing arguments for more though, although I'd be cautious about going too high... The Importance of Being When it comes to blues...we don't know what, if any, blues we have, so I don't see much useful discussion here. I hope they use their abilities to help the town as best they can, but other than that I don't care much about them. I guess if they find a scum, preferably try to get them lynched through town influence and making a good case against them, rather than by role claiming. Or if they find a town, try to dissuade the lynch without claiming if they come under fire. Not sure what else there is to be said here. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:45 Hiroruby wrote: Thanks, I'll do my best! I too am a townie, kind of glad since I don't have to figure out how to use special abilities and such. Be careful you fools! From the OP: Furthermore, there may be dangers in store for town players who claim their role. | ||
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Hiroruby
United States43 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:22 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Be careful you fools! From the OP: Ah, indeed, but I read that more specifically as claiming a blue role. Perhaps an err of judgment on my part, I'll be more careful henceforth. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: LAL? For your point on LAL, unless I have misread the OP, we only know what abilities are possible, not which are actually in the game, how they may have been combined into roles, nor how many of the role there may be. So, unless we have a cop of some variety, I don't know how you intend to find liars in this game. So were you just stating that as a general "in mafia games" rule, or did you have something in mind for this game in particular? I'd be interested in hearing how you intend to determine the liars given the setup. How do you think we intend to play the game bro? We also analyze the posts and what people say in the thread. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:22 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Be careful you fools! From the OP: i dont care. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: LAL? For your point on LAL, unless I have misread the OP, we only know what abilities are possible, not which are actually in the game, how they may have been combined into roles, nor how many of the role there may be. So, unless we have a cop of some variety, I don't know how you intend to find liars in this game. So were you just stating that as a general "in mafia games" rule, or did you have something in mind for this game in particular? I'd be interested in hearing how you intend to determine the liars given the setup. Lying will come up and you will be able to recognize it. The most prominent example is fake claims. So LAL means no fake claims. + Show Spoiler + Or it means don't get caught lying. Kenpachi's green claim would be an example of a potentially acceptable lie (if he is blue) as this early in the game any claims are meaningless On November 15 2011 13:43 Hiroruby wrote: Well, this is my first game so I'll give my elementary assessment of the afformentioned topics. Playing Mafia: I think mafia lurking and lying are weak strategies. Following those guidelines you set will guarantee the mafia get a few free town lynches if they play smart and be active at the beginning as I'm pretty sure we will have some inactive townies. As I said, straight up lying is a bad move, because it could come back to haunt you. Better to just have convoluted, strangely worded, ambiguous answers to peoples questions. It's all true, but people will waste time trying to figure out what you meant. That is when you go "afk" for a few hours while people decipher it, then when they have sufficiently wasted their time, change something you said. Nothing big, just say it was a slight mistake or that you changed your mind about a portion of what you said. Following wheels like this whenever they present themselves is a good move, because if ever people follow the wheel to a towny, you can either hint to try and get a band wagon on him, or just let the town try and hang eachother. I think sacrificing a mafia member is a great move as well. Have one mafia member call out another, get him killed because people will follow the logic train of: One is mafia, and one is town. No matter who gets lynched, it is very possible the town is left with a "sleeper cell" if you will. A trusted member who will influence us for the rest of the game, possibly without suspicion until several mislynches are made. In my opinion, Mafia's biggest goal should be to become a trusted towny, by whatever means necessary. I'm not too indepth with the subtle nuances of Mafia and their roles, so I'm eager to learn how those effect the game from other peoples posts. A few things to note: 1) It's been said as Mafia that one of the hardest things to do is make convincing analysis against a townie 2) Motivation is key, there are bored mafia, there are bored town. Both mafia and town lurk. It is difficult to get read on lurkers that's why they are discouraged 3) Everything that mafia do and say is a lie, has an ulterior motive, or spam. And sometimes the lies get tangled up and exposed. That's why we can't automatically assume that mafia won't lie Blue roles: are of course game changers, but I've read a lot of posts about town and their over reliance on blues to win the game. I believe Ace has been very vocal about this, perhaps I'm wrong on that, but I don't think we should hinge our strategy on verifying a few blue names and hoping they win before we all get killed. Again as with Mafia roles, I don't know too too much about the subtleties on how some of the roles like vet get played out in game. I'm again, eager to see what my fellow boatsmen have to say. Future reference, this usually applies only to PM games. We don't have PMs here so we can't rely on blue roles even if we wanted to Can you write a small report like this as well, LSB? I would like to see your take in an easy to read format, so that I can see an established players views on the topics. I'd rather not post any established opinions till later in the day as I want to see what people think, rather than listening to a bunch of parrots. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
I'm mostly interested in the multi-lynch. It's possible to blanket votes over multiple scummy players, so if instead of busting LSBs balls on posting piles of garbage, I'll echo the analysis statement. There is no wrong way to do it, just post who and why. And going out of your way to point out someone is acting townie does not help any discussion. I'll vote anyone who has a good argument against them. And since I only know a quarter of the player-base, I'll forgive Hiroruby for his fairly obvious insights, because it's effort and if he can forge that into scumhunting, it makes the town that much stronger. And also I see no reason not to do this. ##Vote Kenpachi And I will most likely not be taking it off until I see something that benefits town come out of his mouth. I don't really care about spam, I'll read all of it anyway so I won't discourage it. It will just help my reads so thats all I'm concerned about. | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
Unless we set a low bar for lurkers, I think that many players will qualify as lurkers and so far the general consensus is to lynch them all. I don't think we want to run the risk of "hazards in store for the town that lynches too many players in a particular day" while we don't need to. Instead of setting a certain number of posts/quality to pass/fail, we can determine the 1-2 least helpful/scummiest players and agree to vote them. I don't see any merit in roleclaiming now, or even townie-claiming. If kenpachi and hiroruby would explain why they did so I would be ever so grateful. Personally I will not claim for now, but that is open to change. Both the warning in the OP and the lack of activity so far makes me hesitant to do so. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Lying will come up and you will be able to recognize it. The most prominent example is fake claims. So LAL means no fake claims. Barring verifiable actions, we'll only be able to analyze whether or not we think they are lying, not whether or not they are. Somebody flipping doctor upon death won't mean that another person that claimed doctor is lying. *cough Team Melee Mafia cough* If we can do enough analysis to determine somebody is fake-claiming, I'd presume we'd be able to analyze either why they fake claimed, or whether they have been furthering scum goals or town goals, and then lynch or not based on that, rather than just policy lynching for what we think might be a fake claim. But, I guess we'll cross that bridge if we come to it. I'd still like to hear thoughts on lynches/day and if we want to have any anti-lurking policy. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
On November 15 2011 15:12 DCLXVI wrote: Is it worth speculating what dangers there are in roleclaiming/lynching multiple people in a day? Both are warned against in the OP, but at some point (not now) I can see either becoming a legitimate strategy. Unless we set a low bar for lurkers, I think that many players will qualify as lurkers and so far the general consensus is to lynch them all. I don't think we want to run the risk of "hazards in store for the town that lynches too many players in a particular day" while we don't need to. Instead of setting a certain number of posts/quality to pass/fail, we can determine the 1-2 least helpful/scummiest players and agree to vote them. I don't see any merit in roleclaiming now, or even townie-claiming. If kenpachi and hiroruby would explain why they did so I would be ever so grateful. Personally I will not claim for now, but that is open to change. Both the warning in the OP and the lack of activity so far makes me hesitant to do so. I don't see what there is to discuss with roleclaiming, we have no information on the numbers of blues we have, so fakeclaims are strong, and we can't bank on them one way or another. They can claim when it matters, none of them can break the system claiming now. Lynching multiple people in a day is extremely strong, and the fact that one person can vote as many people as they want makes it more town favorably then double lynch. Mafia can't sheath their vote into a person and expect not to be bugged for voting their scummy partner. Technically, we could all vote every other person and force a draw at any point in the game, because Even when the threshold is reached, people can still be voted, and as long as town has a majority, we can never lose during the day if all hope is lost. That's why I think Zona mentioned the warnings on it, probably because there is some prevention to degenerate voting plans. Rather then make plans around the system, let the system accommodate us. We will lynch as many people as there are scummy individuals, and setting restrictions to that is anti-town. Why should we play around something we know nothing about if it impedes our progress? | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:55 LSB wrote: Lying will come up and you will be able to recognize it. The most prominent example is fake claims. So LAL means no fake claims. + Show Spoiler + Or it means don't get caught lying. Kenpachi's green claim would be an example of a potentially acceptable lie (if he is blue) as this early in the game any claims are meaningless So what is your position on Kenpachi claiming townie? At first you say LAL, but then lying can be acceptable in certain situations, such as kenpachi is blue. Then you say that his claim is meaningless as it is too early in the game. Does that make his post spam/intentionally distracting? Surely he is a good enough player to realize the importance of his claim. Can you explain your opinions on the subject rather than just post vague generalizations. Is kenpachi's claim worth analyzing/what does it mean? see my previous post for what I think on it. On November 15 2011 15:10 bumatlarge wrote: /confirm I'm mostly interested in the multi-lynch. It's possible to blanket votes over multiple scummy players, so if instead of busting LSBs balls on posting piles of garbage, I'll echo the analysis statement. There is no wrong way to do it, just post who and why. And going out of your way to point out someone is acting townie does not help any discussion. I'll vote anyone who has a good argument against them. And since I only know a quarter of the player-base, I'll forgive Hiroruby for his fairly obvious insights, because it's effort and if he can forge that into scumhunting, it makes the town that much stronger. And also I see no reason not to do this. ##Vote Kenpachi And I will most likely not be taking it off until I see something that benefits town come out of his mouth. I don't really care about spam, I'll read all of it anyway so I won't discourage it. It will just help my reads so thats all I'm concerned about. What I read from this is that you will do as LSB wished not to happen: On November 15 2011 14:55 LSB wrote: I'd rather not post any established opinions till later in the day as I want to see what people think, rather than listening to a bunch of parrots. You say that LSB is too vague, then you slack off and "echo" what he said about analysis. You then forgive hiroruby for a vague analysis?, and throw a vote on kenpachi because...? You want him to produce something other than the roleclaim and spam posts I guess? But if we look at your post, you sort of vaguely show interest in one of the topics we are discussing without adding anything, call out LSB for what you are doing, and throw some heat on kenpachi(semi-warranted imo). Where does this help the town though? Sure I could just throw a vote on a player, but if I don't give reasons why I am more productive than them/they are obviously scummy, how does that help the town? Can you actually comment on the multi lynch/roleclaim/bring up another topic/discuss something of importance? Give reasons for what you say rather than just "I'm mostly interested in the multi-lynch". anyways, good night see you in the morning | ||
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DCLXVI
United States729 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
Anyone who wants to lynch lurkers day 1 is scum. It's a very generic thing to day, and gives town little to no information. | ||
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Lanaia
Canada1142 Posts
I think this game is going to be pretty cool. The multilynch mechanic scares me, though. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On November 15 2011 16:00 Cyber_Cheese wrote: That is one really awesome back story. Anyone who wants to lynch lurkers day 1 is scum. It's a very generic thing to day, and gives town little to no information. I just realised I forgot about the multi-lynch system when I posted that, derp | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On November 15 2011 15:49 DCLXVI wrote: damn I forgot people post while I'm in the middle of writing posts... ugh So what is your position on Kenpachi claiming townie? At first you say LAL, but then lying can be acceptable in certain situations, such as kenpachi is blue. Then you say that his claim is meaningless as it is too early in the game. Does that make his post spam/intentionally distracting? Surely he is a good enough player to realize the importance of his claim. Can you explain your opinions on the subject rather than just post vague generalizations. Is kenpachi's claim worth analyzing/what does it mean? Wtf does this mean? Are you saying you are taking Kenpachi seriously? Stop talking hypotheticals, iirc you've played with Kenpachi before. Even if you have not you can go through his posts and figure out how he plays. In addition you've played before so you know how TL mafia is in the first few hours. I honestly don't see how Does that make his post spam/intentionally distracting? Surely he is a good enough player to realize the importance of his claim. this has anything to do with Kenpachi's post. We all know how worthless his claim is, and how much everyone (me included) spams. Your logic is basically saying we should lynch Zephirdd because of this spam On November 15 2011 12:57 Zephirdd wrote: I claim that LSB is mafia because I have access to that information and I don't care what others think and now I won't say anything else for the next 72 hours. It seems like you are trying to pull a 'contradiction' out of nothing... that or twisting my words into unreasonable absolutes. | ||
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
Not much to discuss yet but I'll just get some thoughts out. Tunneling My experience with tunneling has shown me that a lot of times someone's response to being the target of tunneling is to tunnel right back. So say I, as a townie, say MrHoon is scum and then tunnel about it, but he's really town, now he has a strong urge to tunnel back at me saying that I'm scum, and to him my behavior may seem scummy since I'm trying to get a townie lynched. So in the end we both derail discussion, and most likely waste two lynches on townies after a wasted day. Idk maybe it is common sense but with the multi-lynch I'm kind of afraid we might get a bit trigger happy and kill too many townies too early. Idk...just don't fucking tunnel is the main point of what I'm trying to say I guess. I know bum said that he likes the multi-lynch but I'm skeptical of it. I feel like this could be a great tool if we use it wisely, but it could also be our downfall if we are careless. I'd like to discuss us setting a limit for ourselves on lynches per day, but tbh I don't really know what would be a good number. I think any number over 3 would be extremely dangerous, and imo 3 is even pushing it. Therefore I would probably suggest a limit of 2 but more than that I'd just like to get some more input on it. Also, I can't really think of any way we would be able to keep ourselves to whatever limit we set. So....thoughts? | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Explanation. Many times lynches come down to whether person A is more scummy than person B. Multi lynch allows us to judge each independently If two people seem scummy, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch both of them. At the same time I would like to stress the importance of having a lynch. A day with no lynch is almost a free night for mafia. We need information and abstaining doesn't give us any I pose a question. Should we lynch one inactive every day? | ||
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