Team Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy - Page 75

On November 10 2011 08:23 Ace wrote:
@Palmar: If the town mislynches twice, does the wrong play and still wins - there might be something wrong with the setup. I haven't read this game or even looked at the roles yet though, I'm just commenting from skimming so far.

On November 10 2011 08:26 Palmar wrote:


Yes, I'm just trying to figure out how much is wrong with the setup.

Town lucked on the most favorable town setup, town got lucky with the checks, and yet they almost lost. And this all with a pretty bad showing from the rest of mafia.

On November 10 2011 08:24 Palmar wrote:
yes, that was my initial reason for nerfing cop -> parity cop

I am more than willing to change the 2of4 if we intend to use it again on TL. It's not about me defending the setup, it's me having a problem with people who blame the game (lol @ fucking zerg whiners on TL) instead of blaming themselves, even if the odds are slightly against them, that's what I consider a challenge.

Can someone suggest a modification to the 2of4 setup that would make it more balanced.

I ran this version on another site:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Veteran.

It replaces rolecop with roleblocker, and removes jailor/vanilla and adds vigilante and veteran

On November 10 2011 08:30 GreYMisT wrote:
The reason why town wasnt completely screwed at the end was only 1/4th of the mafia team was actually present at all. If the other 3 components were assembled it might have been a different story.

On November 10 2011 08:32 wherebugsgo wrote:


nah it wasn't as big a deal as you think it might be.

I even tried bussing them, it's only the check that prevented that from being doable.

If the check worked out correctly the plan was actually to bus kurumi's team. This was before the claim by GM.

My backup was to bus kurumi if the check confirmed GM as town but that didn't work either because the check forced me to talk about you guys.

On November 10 2011 08:38 Palmar wrote:


And I think it's a bigger deal than you think it is.

On November 10 2011 08:32 wherebugsgo wrote:

EDIT: Can someone explain why F11 is not balanced?

I know very little about these setups except what I know from simply googling them.

On November 10 2011 08:24 Palmar wrote:
yes, that was my initial reason for nerfing cop -> parity cop

I am more than willing to change the 2of4 if we intend to use it again on TL. It's not about me defending the setup, it's me having a problem with people who blame the game (lol @ fucking zerg whiners on TL) instead of blaming themselves, even if the odds are slightly against them, that's what I consider a challenge.

Can someone suggest a modification to the 2of4 setup that would make it more balanced.

I ran this version on another site:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Veteran.

It replaces rolecop with roleblocker, and removes jailor/vanilla and adds vigilante and veteran

On November 10 2011 07:09 wherebugsgo wrote:


roleblocker would've balanced the setup, IMO.

I personally just hate roleclaims. If I ever host a game I will probably punish roleclaimers very hard.

TL towns tend to believe any role claim fed to them, but that's a big problem when generally only townies gain from roleclaims.

Very rarely do scum roleclaims actually gain scum anything. Sometimes you see them do something but more often than not mafia only really gain from counterclaiming.

Counterclaiming on day 1 this game would've taken balls, but we would've been dead day 2 and that wouldn't have been good.

On November 10 2011 07:13 Palmar wrote:


Follow the cop is not an issue with a parity cop (who essentially can only have one real result at the start of day 3) in a 7 player game with a role cop.

What lost you the game was your (the mafia team's) inability to argue your way out of a lynch on day 3, or unwillingness to bus a partner to secure the win in lylo tomorrow.

The reason I say follow the cop is not an issue this game is the following.

Day 3 is the FIRST day a parity cop can have reliable results.

On November 10 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:
Ok started reading from endgame post





Roleclaims are good, and in games with really good players at some point they become necessary. The Town needs information. Punishing guys for roleclaiming usually leads to awkward situations and/or people getting upset at the mod. The level of gameplay also tends to become crap because claiming at the right time is a powerful strategy.

As for the bolded - not true
Scum roleclaims are just as good as Town in most setups. The major difference between Town and Scum is motivation at the start of the game. If a Town player claims and can't be verified, and the same happens with a Scum player then is there any difference from a Town p.o.v.? You just have to blame people who accept any RC at face value, or a setup that lets Town PRs claim with no real consequence. "Follow The Cop" scenarios are one of these scenarios for sure.



Actually it is the same issue. Whether the Cop has results or not, it works for any information role that can't be safely CC but infinitely protected. The PC claims Day 1 with no CC because the Scum team isn't willing to risk one of it's members. Let's stop for a second and look at it again:

The only chance a Scum team has of stopping a claimed PC is by CCing on Day 1 and losing one of it's members. If they don't get the PC lynched he is confirmed and they play find the Doc and almost surely lose. This isn't a good deal for Scum at all.

At this point does it matter that the PC hasn't gotten a check yet?
The same thing would happen if a Tracker claims Day 1 in this game. Your best outcome is going into Night 2 with 1 Scum team remaining vs a Doctor and a bunch of Townies. Not extremely bad but not even a fair winning position. You could play it this way 50 times and any sensible player that gets PC will always claim Day 1 knowing that both Scum options (let the claim ride, or counter-claim) lead to the Town almost surely winning anyway.

Bussing your partner to win should never be a real option for a Scum team to win a game. If it comes down to that then something is seriously wrong.

That doesn't excuse the rest of the Scum team for afking and leaving WBG to fight alone though. If you can't argue your way out of lynch you probably deserve to be screwed.

On November 10 2011 08:58 Palmar wrote:
That's exactly my proposal btw.

I agree the setup is town favoured, but after mafia had the identity of the doc at start of day 2, and had already secured a mislynch and a good nk, they were in a good position.

They got into a good position a screwed it up. They knew they would have to deal with 1, and exactly 1 result from the parity cop, which is frankly... okay.

Again, i'm not saying the setup was fine, I'm just pointing out with the good start that mafia got, it wasn't the setup that lost them the game more than their inability to get themselves out of that guillotine.

On November 09 2011 09:31 GMarshal wrote:
Well it should be obvious I fakeclaimed as town to try to save the medic.

IN no scenario does it make sense for me to claim medic, at night, as scum, because in the best case scenario something like this happens. However as town it means I get to

1.) Save the real medic if he exists
2.) Give the DT a check, either by having him check me and dying or by letting him live and check someone else.

In the scenario in which no other blue exist, I gave the dt basically a free check into a pool of 3 players. In a scenario in which a medic exists, the game becomes unwinnable for mafia, unless the medic counterclaims at night. Which chaoser did.

If you examine the motivation behind the claim, there is no logic to it as scum, none. There is no reason I would risk a counterclaim like that or you know, a blue dying at night or CALLING FOR THE DT TO CHECK ME, if I were scum and not in a mental asylum.

On November 10 2011 08:58 kitaman27 wrote:


That wasn't the situation. He didn't fake claim to protect the medic. He fake claimed to protect the parity cop.

It was night two after two mislynches and a claimed PC with no knowledge if there is a medic in the setup. Best case scenario, the scum team get spooked and doesn't shoot the PC. Worse case scenario, the scum shoot the PC anyways and you chalk up the GM fake claim to a null tell.

On November 10 2011 09:02 kitaman27 wrote:
That's not what he meant though. At the time of the claim, he couldn't have known if there was a medic.