EPTTeam Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy - Page 82
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
You called? ![[image loading]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/003/997/professor_badass1.jpg?1285779418){kind=icon} | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
Here's what's interesting about the situation. Ace is encouraging high level play, but there is no incentive for towns in TL to step up their game. Sandroba's idea is pretty critical in the whole discussion "Would Scum GM ever do that? No!". You see, this idea is very important because Ace is correct, there is nothing in GM's claim that actually says anything about his alignment, but is the right call lynching him? It absolutely is not. Here's the explanation. I've maintained the position that scum on TL (including myself) sucks really bad at this game, and town pretty much just takes advantage of that. If we assume GM is an excellent scum player who will abuse the very passive play of TL's mafia, and thus the easy elimination type plays by TL's towns, he could very well have made the roleclaim and town wouldn't have anything about his alignment. But the thing is, Sandroba is correct, just as Ace is correct. Given the current hesitation of TL's scum to do anything other than just lurk and pray they can't be found out, the incorrect move in the situation is to lynch GM. If we however can stop for a second and allow us to imagine a world where TL scum doesn't suck, where they do random shit just for the hell of it and to fuck with town, where they aren't afraid of being active and just relying on arguing their way out of lynches. Then Ace has the correct answer. Given good play from both sides, GM should have been lynched. But since scum always sucks on TL, it's almost safe to say no scum in TL's current metagame does shit like this. This is why we've been waiting for so long for you to freshen up that mafia guide of yours Ace, for a long time TL scum has suffered from being terrible, while towns don't get punished for bad play because scum is even worse. You brought up Resurrection mafia, I remember that game quite well, and I also remember just ignoring whatever roleclaims and shit happening that game because we had exactly the same deal going on as I've just brought up. It was really, really obvious from day 1 who were town and who were scum for the most part. In a world where TL scum doesn't suck, I couldn't have played it like that, but just like in everything else, if the task at hand doesn't get more difficult, you cannot improve. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Generalizing someone's play based on the entire forum's average skill level is stupid. Meta is based on individuals, not groups; basing it on groups leads to false conclusions when you start considering individual cases. The simple fact of the matter is that GM's scum play IS good, so there's no doubt he would be capable of doing that as scum. Saying TL scum=shit therefore GM wouldn't do that as scum is not only wrong, it's an insult to GM's scum play, which IMO is not that bad. He was probably the most effective scum during SMG hosted by Ace, for example, and probably one of the best scum players I've actually played with. Again, not that I've played with many scum, only like 10-12 people total by now. EDIT: also palmar, if it wasn't for Jackal's shitty roleclaim in Resurrection he would've lived and fucked us over. Thus, the simple fact that you completely ignored the roleclaims means you don't remember that game very well. The bad roleclaim was the only reason Jackal was ever caught, he had shit tons of cred from just getting shot n1. Imagine if we just said "oh well this claim doesn't make sense but that's okay because Jackal has looked town forever and he got shot n1. He's not scummy at all!" then Jackal would've survived and gotten away with his crap claim. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:02 GreYMisT wrote: And thus, another successful end to a postgame Just for the record, this was your thousandth post. The thing about claiming is, claiming and going 1 for 1 to any counter claimers generally isn't worth it. That said, it can be used in LYLO type situations. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On November 11 2011 03:59 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Just for the record, this was your thousandth post. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK Actually, if it was in service to professor badass, I'll accept it as worth it. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
On November 11 2011 03:59 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Just for the record, this was your thousandth post. The thing about claiming is, claiming and going 1 for 1 to any counter claimers generally isn't worth it. That said, it can be used in LYLO type situations. i actually think this was his 1000th post edit: yes it was, checked times  | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
On November 11 2011 03:36 wherebugsgo wrote: Palmar your argument dies when you realize your logic of generalizations is untrue. Generalizing someone's play based on the entire forum's average skill level is stupid. Meta is based on individuals, not groups; basing it on groups leads to false conclusions when you start considering individual cases. The simple fact of the matter is that GM's scum play IS good, so there's no doubt he would be capable of doing that as scum. Saying TL scum=shit therefore GM wouldn't do that as scum is not only wrong, it's an insult to GM's scum play, which IMO is not that bad. He was probably the most effective scum during SMG hosted by Ace, for example, and probably one of the best scum players I've actually played with. Again, not that I've played with many scum, only like 10-12 people total by now. EDIT: also palmar, if it wasn't for Jackal's shitty roleclaim in Resurrection he would've lived and fucked us over. Thus, the simple fact that you completely ignored the roleclaims means you don't remember that game very well. The bad roleclaim was the only reason Jackal was ever caught, he had shit tons of cred from just getting shot n1. Imagine if we just said "oh well this claim doesn't make sense but that's okay because Jackal has looked town forever and he got shot n1. He's not scummy at all!" then Jackal would've survived and gotten away with his crap claim. It's not an insult to GM because he is smart enough to realize that no scum on TL would ever try this shit, it's actually a compliment to him, because he is smart enough to take advantage of that fact as town and do something that ought to be auto-lynch-worthy, but because it's so implausible to think a scum would attempt this gambit he felt safe doing something that should have gotten him lynched. I am fully aware of GM's prowess as scum. And I do agree he was the best scum in SMG. About Resurrection, I never changed my mind about Jackal, but again that game was ridiculously easy. You may be right that I wouldn't have been able to convince the rest of town to kill him, but he was glaringly obvious scum even without the claim when he came back to life. But seeing as everyone agreed ON and Bum were scum anyway it wasn't actually problem, could just keep ressing townies until he was dead. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On November 10 2011 12:11 Ace wrote: That is wrong on many accounts. Scum can claim a role and gain Town cred at any time. That's the basis of false claiming from Scum. Only scrubs care about "pressure" and "drawing attention". Who the fuck cares if Townies argue with you - is there a DT check you need to worry about? No? Then there isn't shit the Town can do to you. End of argument. I swear you guys play Scum with the mindset "I'm Scum so whatever I say will be looked at as Scummy" and play Town the opposite way. There is no fucking functional difference between the 2 alignments. Damn when will you guys learn this shit and stop playing like fucking scrubs. I was arguing with a friend a while back who said mafiascum.net's newbie games are better than Teamliquid and now I'm thinking he might be right. You guys are fucking dumb. There's a reason L and myself easily out play most people on this forum as Scum. People just don't get it. Scum play is easy life foreva Edit: I will also briefly respond to Palmar. There is a huge incentive for TL towns to improve, or at least should be. Everytime a veteran player flips red and is active in a setup that is balanced. Mafia will shit on towns hard. Certain players play mafia very very well on this forum, although that number is extremely small. I have tried to coach people on how to play as mafia, I have encouraged sort of actions that people should be doing, no one does it. TL towns typically just rely on blue roles to win games. The level of analysis is insanely poor and any strong mafia player could just walk in and instantly control a town. Look at how little effort I put into FW's mason game. With talking to sandroba, RoL, and Viscera outside my mafia team we managed to dominate the game. We had a loose end red? waste a vig shot on him and gain some cred. That game (although we ended up not needing it) we went dual GF purposely in the event that we had to bus one or the other and build instant cred for the survivor, etc... A strong mafia team plans from day 1, is active and vocal. The moment one of these teams appears the towns typically flounder unless the game is so rigged against the mafia its near impossible to win. A strong enough mafia team can still win those games. If TL towns were at least improving, coming to things logically as opposed to basing all the decisions based on results then it would be a different case. The smartest play will sometimes end up being the "wrong choice" based on the outcome. That smart play the following three games would most likely win it for you. The issue most of the current player base has is basing play off results. Bad play = bad play even if you got lucky. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On November 11 2011 05:05 redFF wrote: I honestly don't think that our win was down to luck though. You ignored everything happening in the thread just my 5 cents | ||
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