EPTOn September 05 2011 09:40 chaos13 wrote:
Do Zombies count towards mafia numbers, or just KP?
Do Zombies count towards mafia numbers, or just KP?
holy shit. Read the OP.
Resurrection Mafia - Page 3
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
holy shit. Read the OP. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:46 chaos13 wrote: holy shit. I see nothing in the OP that answers my question. Mafia KP is N/2 (rounded up). Zombies count towards KP. Reading is fun bro. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
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Jackal is telling the truth and he's legit. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:50 sandroba wrote: Also we should not lynch zombie today. We lynch bum who is 100% scum and ace who is 95% scum. That will keep kp neatly at one even if the game is not over somehow, so killing off ressed players is a waste today. So that when you screw up the lynch, Mafia KP remains constant and you get your kills off. Nice idea, but I'm on to you. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
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I'm not going to discuss whether there are 3 or 4, or 7 Mafia because it doesn't matter as much as discussing how the roles possibly work. Something you keep failing to understand. redFF nor Sinani are confirmed town, so you better stop putting words out there like they definitely are. On September 06 2011 04:22 wherebugsgo wrote: Wtf why would mafia not res ON? That's 1 KP, mafia plus zombie= 1 KP. Gee, I wonder why. Pull your head out of your ass and think about it. On September 06 2011 00:13 chaos13 wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 4 scum in this setup. If it was a standard game, yeah probably just 3, but with the ability of town to confirm people like sinani and varp and resurrect them, and with roles like Daywalker (which unfortunately doesn't seem to be present) and Guardian Angel (assuming your claim is true) and the Pious Voter (assuming they don't suck at scumhunting) I would say town has a definite advantage that would be balanced out by 4 mafia. I don't want us to get stuck in a tunnel of believing there is only 3 scum and then be confused later. I also don't think mafia will zombify ON. There would be no point to it. He would be lynched immediately so all they've done is made us waste a lynch. They don't actually gain KP from it in the end. Instead they're more likely to revive a town player that was lynched or killed. Why wouldn't they? It turns town against town, essentially, forcing us to use a lynch against our own members. See, you guys dont even read the thread. Ok smart guy, tell me this: When did the Town confirm Sinani as town, and how did we do it? Show me. Outline it. I dare you. On September 06 2011 01:00 sandroba wrote: That's so cool you assume both coroners are telling the truth when you called them both scum. Also if mafia has 4 members we are not guaranteed to hit day3. Another point is that seeing all roles town most likely has this game is slightly town favored even considering only 2 checks. How many no flip games have you ever played in? Tell the truth How many games have you ever played in that you've seen a backup role? Tell the truth Doesn't matter, because the answer is "Less than Ace". Didn't you get roleblocked? Why are you still alive? And why are you so sure Sinani must be town? For someone who has been given a lot of leeway in terms of coming up with plans how could you overlook such a GLARING oversight? This is basic for anyone that's an above average Mafia player and should have been the first thing you noticed if you are as good as some of these scrubs believe you are. Coroner role listed in the OP No flip No Counter Claim ability of any role Proof by death is usually one of the obstacles that stops Mafia from doing too many powerful Gambits. Every good Scum player I've known on various internet forums and irl pretty much agree: No flip helps Scum because of the how hard it is to confirm Townies. Knowing this, most Townies won't just blindly roleclaim in a no flip game as they know there has to be a role or some special mechanic or circumstances for them to be believed. And you expect me to believe redFF or just let it fly because he might be stupid. K. But I've already outlined why 2 players that can't confirm each other or can't be confirmed are possibly Scum. The insistence in denying bumatlarge's claim but taking redFF's claim over his is pretty fishy. But let's get back to the roles. Once again I'm going to quote the OP because thats where anyone thats every played with their heads and broken games before starts. Use whats given to you: Coroner Can look at a corpse and determine alignment and role. May be used any time, and will instantly return the information (as soon as I get the pm). iGrok confirmed that some roles are incomplete. The Coroner role may very well have some other options - but that's it. Options. The role explicitly states you can look at a corpse. That means one. redFF somehow looked at 2 corpses. As a back up role. Back up roles can't be more powerful than the original. Then there is this major snag here: On September 05 2011 09:31 sinani206 wrote: OK, this is the deal. I am a Coroner. redFF was my Apprentice. When I was lynched Day 1, I had not used either of my checks (note: the role pm did not say there was a limit to checks per day) So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. Also, assuming we have a 1/1/1 scum team of Minion, Necromancer and Inhibitor, and that we only have one priest, one of the people revived today besides me has a power (one who must have been killed by the minion on Day 1) and the third person is a Zombie. Since we know it was a Minion shot that killed the second revival, and because Mafia had only 2 regular KP on Day 1, the Daywalker has not yet used his shot. If you feel confident, use your shot today, on Ace or bum. If not, we can just lynch both of them and win either way. EZ PZ. A couple of issues. 1.) Why did redFF never claim Apprentice but Sinani did. This was redFF's claim: On September 03 2011 10:32 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, checked varp and sinani both town ressurect sinani plz. Apprentice vs Secret Coroner's Apprentice. Different role names. 2.) Now this one is a bit of a flyer because I dont know if iGrok knows about this, but I'm going to assume he does. In majority of games with backups, the original role and the backup either dont know they both exist, or the backup is not self-aware. This is an important caveat of games with back ups because if they both know each other exist they can both claim and prove the other role is legit. This is partially solved by it being a no flip game and having the coroner have to check out the dead claimant. They claimed coroner, oops. The other point is about being self aware, or knowing you are a backup. This can lead to all kinds of stupid shit happening but for the sake of argument lets keep it simple. I was watching redFF's claim very careful and when he claimed apprentice I was waiting to see if he would say he was a normal Townie and then suddenly became back up Coroner. This didn't happen though and made me extra skeptical. The chances of his shoddy role claim, being self-aware, and the original Coroner KNOWING there is a backup would be an amazing set of coincidences. Lets continue. 3.) sinani said he didn't use either of his checks. redFF gets both of them while he died. OK STOP. Once again I'm going to go off on a flyer here but this needs to be taken into context. I dont think iGrok would ever break a role like this. This is the first part of the explanation: Why would he punish the Mafia team like this? The Mafia correctly pops the Coroner on Day 1. The Town gets a back up Coroner who gets a Day 1 and Day 2 check, punishing the Mafia for hitting correctly on the first day. This is somewhat shoddy balance and if this is the case then so be it. [/quote] So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else.[/quote] If he knew you were the Coroner being your apprentice then the game would be broken. At best, the back up would have a suspicion the real role exists, not the name of the actual player who has the role. That would be absurdly broken. A Police Chief role doesn't know the name of his Detectives precisely because knowing a confirmed innocent while having investigation powers leads to games where Scum get rolled. Second of all, how would you know that redFF's role description allows him to know you are the Coroner? Explain this. Now. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. What day is this? Day 1: You got 0 checks off Day 2: redFF got an extra check since you died? Day 3: you come back to life, but get one last check Why would iGrok give redFF 2 checks then if you have the chance to come back to life. Once again he'd be punishing the Scum team for performing well. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. This is absurdly stupid for reasons I've outlined in past posts but I'll say it again: If ON is truly Scum then how does that implicate bumatlarge and myself? Explain where we are linked together. Prove it instead of just hiding behind speculation. For 2 roles like this to exist in the game AND for you to have foreknowledge of each other, plus the convenience of the checks seems too fishy to me. The fact that you immediately jumped on me for calling this out without even trying to understand the setup, not giving bum's claim serious consideration, glossing over the fact that the OP contradicts what redFF said, the shoddy linking of myself to ON and Bum, oh and one more major point: The game is guaranteed to last at minimum until Day 3. If you die Day 1 and do not get resurrected, then why would redFF lose his checks on Day 2 after using both of them. That just defeats the purpose of being a backup role. For someone who said he claimed because he is now useless this doesn't sit well. Especially since he originally claimed he can check twice per day On September 04 2011 07:05 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, i can check twice a day. Why did he never explicitly state you are the Coroner when he claimed? How come YOU have knowledge about his role but he never told us. Remember when I chastised redFF for claiming? Why didn't he do a full claim? His claim came in pieces. He never claimed how his role worked all at once and he has not given us Varpulis's role. Why not? Varpulis was town right? So you'd push the revival of the other pro-town player pretty hard right? He hasn't. This just can't all be coincidence can it? All of this? On September 03 2011 06:56 redFF wrote: kk since i have a feeling i will die tonight here is scumreads, in order from scummiest to least scummy(but still scummy) varpulis, sinani, sandroba, originalname, ace(though his posting is getting better), bumatlarge. Don't resurrect varpulis or sinani plz coroner varp. On September 04 2011 05:20 redFF wrote: btw if it isnt obvious i kinda took a step back today because my 2 scummiest reads were both town lol. Amazing how these things work out. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 09:25 jcarlsoniv wrote: Assuming mafia had 3 members to start with, then Mafia kp was 2. 3 people died that night. That is mafia kp + minion shot. sinani was lynched. If sinani was scum, then this would have reduced mafia kp to 1 before the mafia kills went out. Sinani is town. I showed you. I outlined it for you. What happens if there is 4 Scum | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 09:54 sandroba wrote: I have no hard proof all I have is behaviour and logic. Mafia is indeed a game of assumptions and that's how you work out the most reasonable explanation. The hard facts I have is that kp was 2 + minion day1 and 1 day2, plus the fact that I've been roleblocked twice while voting bumatlarge when otherwise he would be lynched. Now the number of mafia players present is an important expeculation. I've given many reasons already why a number of mafia greater than 3 would be imbalanced and in one of your posts you agree with my logic. It also can't be lower than 3 due to balance and kp from day1. That being said that does indeed confirm varpulis and sinani as town. One thing I find funny is that you jump all over redFF's claim, but you say nothing about bum's. That is contradictory to your own personal logic. Look at bum's claim. If he was town and indeed had that role how would you use that? You would try to fucking confirm townies by checking lists that had one vote looking for pious. That would be the most obvious thing to do and probably imbalanced as it would 100% confirm a player to bum in that case. Yet you never bothered to look into his claim nor at his behaviour. I wonder why. Another example of contradictory behaviour: Why? How come? Don't you find it slightly intriguing that there is a medic on a setup that people can ressurect? Jackal is suddenly legit to you based on nothing, but somehow you think when other players use reasoning to deduce if a claim is likely or not to be legit than they are "jumping to conclusions". Nice double standards right there. Your rules only apply to others, but not to you when you are pushing your objectives. I believe bum's claim because it is more plausible than redFF's claim. If you were roleblocked I'll think of other possible scenario's but right now I'm very interested in why sinani and redFF's claims dont match up well. redFF messed his claim - you had to have noticed this. Why is bum's claim not good but redFF's legit? I believe Jackal's claim because of the role I have. I'm just waiting to die so I can rape face. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Really what this comes down to is: Is redFF really THAT bad of a player that he did not read the OP and think about the overall strategy of the game? I don't usually let people go away with that excuse. @jcarlsoniv: Show me the exact scenario again and order of events. With quotes and everything that proves this. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:24 sandroba wrote: Also Ace, when I first started playing and I was seeking advice from you on the behaviour of a player that kept mentioning previous games and what a great scumhunter he was, you told me I was right to be suspicious and that those games had no relevance to the current one. Turned out he was scum. Now you are doing the same thing here, saying you are great and have the most experience, yet this game you have done nothing to find scum or "break" the setup in favor of town. All those other games you played in which you were townie I'm sure you did great. Yet this game all you've done is abitrarily nit-pick on a claim from a COMPLETELY NEW AND MADE UP SETUP that you have no previous knowledge of. You claim it to be absurd, yet you say I'm the one jumping into conclusions. You completely disregard behaviour and other issues and you only push your agenda when convinient. You are not analysing each scenario and pondering everything, you are distorting the information to meet your ultimate goal. You are scum =) Why do you keep doing this. You chastise me for not posting, and now that I'm posting it's "I'm not scumhunting". You can't have it both ways. If you haven't noticed the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everyone else. Good luck though. When are you going to acknowledge that no one can Counter Claim Coroner in this set up though - whats taking you so long? Surely you are smart enough to have figured this out on Day 1 right? I like how you say I'm disregarding behaviour when that is exactly what this is all about: redFF's behavior with his claim. Read my posts and stop being bitter that you aren't as good as I am. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
you seem like a huge advocate for balanced games and get really pissed when set ups venture off the norm. So I'm going to put a little bit of faith in you and ask you: How often do you see no-flip games with 15 people have more than 3 scum? Because sandroba's explanation (which makes sense to me) seems to suggest otherwise. I only get pissed when setups venture off the norm without trying to balance both sides. Which happens a lot because most hosts dont do What If scenarios. But whatever. No flip games with 15 people having more than 3 Scum: A.) 15 player Normals often dont have more than 3 Scum anyway. B.) Reading through the OP there is a possibility for more than 3 Scum because of revival roles for the Town. If the Coroner can confirm players as pro-town then even being revived for 1 Day is a major advantage for the Town. It's essentially a temporary Tree Stump. That being said having more than 3 Scum so that the Town doesn't run wild is likely. C.) redFF, sinani, myself, bumatlarge, jackal - all claimed roles. I know I'm town, and even assuming sinani and redFF are Town, bum being Scum, and Jackal being Town then there has to be some kind of revival role left out there. 2 Coroners, my game ending role, Jackal's alleged role: Thats a lot of power on the Town side. Either the Mafia would have 3 players with brutal roles or more than 3. If we accept that the inhibitor was 1 of them then that leaves 2 Mafia power roles. They'd pretty much have to have the necromancer or some revival roles or else as I said above - this game would end quickly. Which means the last power role has to be something awesome if there are 3 Mafia. A 1 shot sure-fire kill is great, but doesn't scream monstrous to me. I'm not buying the there has to be 3 Mafia argument yet. | ||
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Ace
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On September 06 2011 10:35 Jackal58 wrote: Avenging Angel Ace? Only other kind of Angel I can think of. no, but lets just say when I die it will be the last chance for you guys to get your shit straight. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:32 jcarlsoniv wrote: I'm more than happy to, but I'm not sure why what I just said wasn't enough. What do you not understand about my deductive reasoning? Where am I missing something. Show me the hole, and I'll be glad to look for a way to patch it up. Is the Mafia kill compulsive? Likewise is the roleblock compulsive? I really may have missed something small thats why I'm asking. Just a list of "ok this is what happened each day that is mod-confirmed" could go a long way to clearing this up. Someone still has to explain redFF's behavior during his claim though. I refuse to believe he is that bad. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:40 wherebugsgo wrote: If you have such a kickass role that activates when you die, why the fuck are you so scared of getting lynched? Really? Show me where I have been scared of getting lynched. Come on read the thread - have I REALLY been trying hard not to get lynched? lol what a scrub | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:41 bumatlarge wrote: Wow this is the first I've heard of this. Mind sharing Ace? I actually typed it out, but I restrained just in case there really is some Mafia role out there that can do something insane. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:44 bumatlarge wrote: Ace you can't convince sandroba because I guarentee you he is scum this game. He will just keep using his roleblocked excuse to incriminate me, and then because ON agrees with me, well then ON is mafia too. Mafia has no roleblocker, they could not save redff. You just have to push that that is not the sace because you are scum. 4 scum and no blocker would not surprise me in the slightest. Yea I already figured him out. I'm just doing this for kicks. You'd think someone would revive Varpulis right now or at least push for it heavily. Oh well. On September 06 2011 10:46 sandroba wrote: How can no one counter claim coroner? Thats positive ev for town always, as you can simply lynch both claims. What? positive ev for the Town? Do you want a shovel? It's a NO FLIP GAME. Repeat that. NO FLIP. If you lynch both claimers the Town loses the only known investigation role they have of flipping people. All trails by association are DEAD. All trails by voting analysis are DEAD. The Town figures stuff out by alignment flips. Lose 1 scum, the Town loses all alignment flips. The Game is over unless the Town has some super face raping roles. The Coroner, who should be smart, would see this and not Counter Claim. "My word against his" in a no flip game is pretty stupid behavior when you're the guy that gets flips. The expected value is always negative for the Town - it leads to a loss unless some really epic shit happens to help them. Keep up chap, you're supposedly smarter than this. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:52 sandroba wrote: In a setup with double lynch and 4 mafia they are guaranteed to lynch a townie and keep 2 kp the whole game if town double mislynches day1, thus making it impossible for town to win. I think I've proven that already? Yeah, I have. They can have the 2 KP. The Town has a Coroner and revival roles. Every time a Townie revives he is effectively a Tree Stump so the game isn't impossible for the Town to win. GG thanks for playing. | ||
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