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On August 23 2011 16:42 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 23 2011 15:49 syllogism wrote:
Also BC why didn't you try to get yourself lynched? Did you even read your role description? Both sides sucked, and I had absolutely no idea who had the bc personality at first, factor in that I figured that since it was technically 8 vs town the chances of the bc personality being red were fairly high. As such me dying could have killed one of you guys, I had no way of knowing until i knew who all the red were that my "lynch" wouldn't rape a mafia. Also you guys ruined all chances of me ever revealing myself to you the moment you had palmar out my role. Had I not been modkilled I wouldn't have done jackshit to reveal myself unless game made it to lylo and I was somehow still alive. When mafia asks the traitor to do something, he should do it regardless of what he thinks is going on in the game. Clearly mafia has more information than you and as such can make a better assessment of the situation. Basically even without that lynch dodging thing, town couldn't lynch you or they would lose and we were going to have a medic on you if you had claimed. e: i suppose your belief that BC could be a mafia personality is a reasonable explanation, but I don't think that was very likely
honestly dude, after I was modkilled I verified my personality reads with incog and of the ones I had I was damn near spot on in all cases. I also had a general idea of who had what roles because of their personality. The only information you had that I wanted was personalities, as that would confirm if me being lynched would off a mafia or a townie.
However, you can say "when as ask you to do something, you do it" but lets face it. By asking me to claim you revealed two things. You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once. I wasn't going to out myself to save any of you at that point. Aside from palmar/pandain I was most likely on par activity wise with wiggles and more active than you kita fw and barundar. I wouldn't have traded me for you ever. You outing my role was the dumbest thing in the world. There was always the risk that you shot me yes, however letting town know they had 1 more anti town person to look at is just dumb as fuck. You guys got lucky that PR's really really fucked the town.
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On August 24 2011 01:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:42 syllogism wrote:On August 23 2011 16:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 23 2011 15:49 syllogism wrote:
Also BC why didn't you try to get yourself lynched? Did you even read your role description? Both sides sucked, and I had absolutely no idea who had the bc personality at first, factor in that I figured that since it was technically 8 vs town the chances of the bc personality being red were fairly high. As such me dying could have killed one of you guys, I had no way of knowing until i knew who all the red were that my "lynch" wouldn't rape a mafia. Also you guys ruined all chances of me ever revealing myself to you the moment you had palmar out my role. Had I not been modkilled I wouldn't have done jackshit to reveal myself unless game made it to lylo and I was somehow still alive. When mafia asks the traitor to do something, he should do it regardless of what he thinks is going on in the game. Clearly mafia has more information than you and as such can make a better assessment of the situation. Basically even without that lynch dodging thing, town couldn't lynch you or they would lose and we were going to have a medic on you if you had claimed. e: i suppose your belief that BC could be a mafia personality is a reasonable explanation, but I don't think that was very likely honestly dude, after I was modkilled I verified my personality reads with incog and of the ones I had I was damn near spot on in all cases. I also had a general idea of who had what roles because of their personality. The only information you had that I wanted was personalities, as that would confirm if me being lynched would off a mafia or a townie. However, you can say "when as ask you to do something, you do it" but lets face it. By asking me to claim you revealed two things. You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once. I wasn't going to out myself to save any of you at that point. Aside from palmar/pandain I was most likely on par activity wise with wiggles and more active than you kita fw and barundar. I wouldn't have traded me for you ever. You outing my role was the dumbest thing in the world. There was always the risk that you shot me yes, however letting town know they had 1 more anti town person to look at is just dumb as fuck. You guys got lucky that PR's really really fucked the town.
Thing is, we ran into problems along the way, but problems that could be remedied. We were casually leading the town to a bumatlarge mislynch when Pandain decided to be an idiot just to prove he could, this meant I had to turn on the afterburners to get Bumatlarge lynched, and also meant we had to paint him red for my sake, being the most active scum in the thread.
Then for some reason Barundar sent in our hitlist and told incog to make syllo perform all the kills, which was obviously never going to fly, so incog randomed those, and in typical fashion the biggest town-cred scum got owned by RNG, myself.
The reason we asked for your claim, was that with our nightkills we simply had to avoid shooting you and we could mathematically not lose barring super saves or some ridiculous town powers. We decided to risk it, as I was getting hanged anyway.
Yes, we didn't find you... derp 
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On August 24 2011 01:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once.
Not our fault we can't distinguish your town play from your traitor play <3
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On August 24 2011 01:35 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once. Not our fault we can't distinguish your town play from your traitor play <3
I breadcrumbed my role, outed townies roles/personalities while doing nothing actually meaningful for town period. Was pretty obvious I wasn't town
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Nobody in this game was freakin' town.
Except me of course......
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On August 24 2011 01:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:42 syllogism wrote:On August 23 2011 16:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 23 2011 15:49 syllogism wrote:
Also BC why didn't you try to get yourself lynched? Did you even read your role description? Both sides sucked, and I had absolutely no idea who had the bc personality at first, factor in that I figured that since it was technically 8 vs town the chances of the bc personality being red were fairly high. As such me dying could have killed one of you guys, I had no way of knowing until i knew who all the red were that my "lynch" wouldn't rape a mafia. Also you guys ruined all chances of me ever revealing myself to you the moment you had palmar out my role. Had I not been modkilled I wouldn't have done jackshit to reveal myself unless game made it to lylo and I was somehow still alive. When mafia asks the traitor to do something, he should do it regardless of what he thinks is going on in the game. Clearly mafia has more information than you and as such can make a better assessment of the situation. Basically even without that lynch dodging thing, town couldn't lynch you or they would lose and we were going to have a medic on you if you had claimed. e: i suppose your belief that BC could be a mafia personality is a reasonable explanation, but I don't think that was very likely honestly dude, after I was modkilled I verified my personality reads with incog and of the ones I had I was damn near spot on in all cases. I also had a general idea of who had what roles because of their personality. The only information you had that I wanted was personalities, as that would confirm if me being lynched would off a mafia or a townie. However, you can say "when as ask you to do something, you do it" but lets face it. By asking me to claim you revealed two things. You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once. I wasn't going to out myself to save any of you at that point. Aside from palmar/pandain I was most likely on par activity wise with wiggles and more active than you kita fw and barundar. I wouldn't have traded me for you ever. You outing my role was the dumbest thing in the world. There was always the risk that you shot me yes, however letting town know they had 1 more anti town person to look at is just dumb as fuck. You guys got lucky that PR's really really fucked the town.
Bullshit, the game was 13 7 1 at the the time we "outed you" (in fact it was 12 7 1 1, even better), and there was nothing town could do about you and come out ahead. I'm stunned you actually have the nerve to trash us after your performance this game. Having you claim traitor was optimal play.
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On August 24 2011 01:47 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 23 2011 16:42 syllogism wrote:On August 23 2011 16:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 23 2011 15:49 syllogism wrote:
Also BC why didn't you try to get yourself lynched? Did you even read your role description? Both sides sucked, and I had absolutely no idea who had the bc personality at first, factor in that I figured that since it was technically 8 vs town the chances of the bc personality being red were fairly high. As such me dying could have killed one of you guys, I had no way of knowing until i knew who all the red were that my "lynch" wouldn't rape a mafia. Also you guys ruined all chances of me ever revealing myself to you the moment you had palmar out my role. Had I not been modkilled I wouldn't have done jackshit to reveal myself unless game made it to lylo and I was somehow still alive. When mafia asks the traitor to do something, he should do it regardless of what he thinks is going on in the game. Clearly mafia has more information than you and as such can make a better assessment of the situation. Basically even without that lynch dodging thing, town couldn't lynch you or they would lose and we were going to have a medic on you if you had claimed. e: i suppose your belief that BC could be a mafia personality is a reasonable explanation, but I don't think that was very likely honestly dude, after I was modkilled I verified my personality reads with incog and of the ones I had I was damn near spot on in all cases. I also had a general idea of who had what roles because of their personality. The only information you had that I wanted was personalities, as that would confirm if me being lynched would off a mafia or a townie. However, you can say "when as ask you to do something, you do it" but lets face it. By asking me to claim you revealed two things. You as a team were retarded, and you failed to find me once. I wasn't going to out myself to save any of you at that point. Aside from palmar/pandain I was most likely on par activity wise with wiggles and more active than you kita fw and barundar. I wouldn't have traded me for you ever. You outing my role was the dumbest thing in the world. There was always the risk that you shot me yes, however letting town know they had 1 more anti town person to look at is just dumb as fuck. You guys got lucky that PR's really really fucked the town. Bullshit, the game was 13 7 1 at the the time we "outed you" (in fact it was 12 7 1 1, even better), and there was nothing town could do about you and come out ahead. I'm stunned you actually have the nerve to trash us after your performance this game. Having you claim traitor was optimal play.
I never said my play was solid. You didn't play well. You sat back and let PR's and trolls ruin a game then sent in night actions. Want a cookie? A few of your team did do fairly well, palmar for example. His decent showing however does not excuse the total lack of effort by everyone else. FW had decent reasons, barundar/you were completely inactive, wiggles/pandain/kita were hit and miss on activity but overall skirted by not doing alot. I am not saying I did a stellar job, but for your lineup doing absolutely near nothing isn't a cause to be proud of. Town played badly in part heavily due to PR's, personality trolling, and some shoddy analysis at points.
Having me claim traitor seemed like optimal play to you, it was in reality bad. If I see an outed red (and at that point had to believe the framed bum was also red) being killed asking for someone to out themselves as anti town? You didn't know my role and were banking on me dying for you. If you look at a general trade for players, the only person I would willingly have died for is FW. The rest of you were overall far less active than I was, and Pandain should have been policy shot/killed so i couldn't sacrifice myself for him.
Saying trading me for any of you/barundar/kita/wiggles/pandain would have been sub optimal play. FW wasn't up to being lynched so I didn't have to worry about that, and palmar was already dead.
So why would I get lynched? Me instead getting ghrur killed and getting a 1 shot extra kp is far more useful as if i get him lynched a townie dies, then I shoot another 1 leaving 2 dead people before I die instead of 1 dead person.
A traitor in a setup where only mafia + traitor know of the existence is a far more important player than one of the mafia team when the team is still almost fully alive as its an extra vote + a player who can be dt checked and return as town. I, in terms of usefulness to manipulate/disorient town, was worth far more than most people on your team. My mistake was assuming if I was obvious enough that you would find me.
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You don't seem to understand that you don't count towards KP and if town a) shoots you they waste KP because we had a medic on you or b) lynches you, they lose. There was no "trading" going on and activity, especially mere in-thread activity, had little to do with being useful towards achieving our win con. If town had lynched you, they would have instantly lost the game by that point, with or without your role ability. Sure, if we could have gotten ghrur lynched somehow, it would have been even better, but that's far harder to pull off than getting claimed traitor lynched.
Further, there is no reason for us to have a strong thread presence when everything is going our way and town is mislynching every day.
e: also most of town wanted you lynched and wasn't really paying attention to what you said, so I'm not sure where you get the idea you were leading the town around or spreading confusion. Indeed, had curu not tracked palmar, you would have been the day 3 lynch.
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On August 23 2011 19:48 Curu wrote:
Pandain/Palmar were obvious lynches if bum had flipped correctly but the Framer fucked up everything from that trail too.
Maybe you should take that up with Ver and Incog. Death Millers, or any role that flips the opposite alignment on death is generally a bad thing as the Town is going to have incorrect reads for the rest of the game in relation to that player. Mafia of course gets a free pass.
Even with all the crazy role interactions some of the Town just derped around on some stuff that should have been a big deal. Then again with so many people playing like shit, spamming as Town(wtf?), and riding Post Restrictions to the grave I can't blame some people for not trying harder. I'd afk out too.
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I'd love a do over with out the post restrictions or with the ability to claim your post restriction.
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I didn't have any good opportunities to make a graph.  There weren't any really contentious claims or scenarios, with maybe the exception of bum vs pandain, but that didn't really lend itself to a graph, since there were like two possibilities. Sorry chaoser. Also, my role blew -- it's not like anybody's going to lie about their name, and there's not much knowledge you can get from the name itself. Maybe it'll hint at the role (not reliably, though), but even then it doesn't mean much.
Also, sorry for the inactivity. I should've tried harder to get Pandain lynched.
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On August 24 2011 04:09 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 19:48 Curu wrote:
Pandain/Palmar were obvious lynches if bum had flipped correctly but the Framer fucked up everything from that trail too.
Maybe you should take that up with Ver and Incog. Death Millers, or any role that flips the opposite alignment on death is generally a bad thing as the Town is going to have incorrect reads for the rest of the game in relation to that player. Mafia of course gets a free pass. Even with all the crazy role interactions some of the Town just derped around on some stuff that should have been a big deal. Then again with so many people playing like shit, spamming as Town(wtf?), and riding Post Restrictions to the grave I can't blame some people for not trying harder. I'd afk out too.
Yeah, most of Town did play like absolute shit. I was getting so frustrated with how many people were purposely exaggerating their PRs or being intentionally useless/scummy that I started lashing out at everyone. Pandain almost certainly would have been a day 1 lynch if it wasn't spammed away by Kurumi and the whole Kavdragon vs Aidnai mess, the Mafia team was even ready to bus him.
The one time my day 1 tunnel actually falls on a scum I eased up -_-. I'm not happy with my play this game at all.
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You should lynch Pandain D1 because he said he is day vigi and after he used his power I wasn't dead.
But oh well, how many times You can ask for a shot so L can stop tunnel You (who is Jackal and is better than me)
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Speaking as someone who helped balance the game, there is only 1 thing I thought really went wrong with the setup balance-wise: I don't think the bomberman should have been allowed to place more bombs after the first set went off. Also, I don't think the mafia should have been allowed to change the code word every cycle. The mafia was supposed to have stronger roles than the town - every town player had a role.
This game was only so one-sided because the town was lazy and got too caught up in their posting restrictions (most of which should have been relatively easy to recognize by reading the quiz or looking through the threads which talk about famous/funny moments on the forum). Also, the mafia got very lucky (doing things like blocking a vigi hit on one of their members night 1 and roleblocking the invention away).
The town did not need more investigative roles. The town needed to scumhunt better. For example, Pandain was handed to you on a silver platter day 1, but you never got around to killing him. Nobody even took a shot at him all game. He even lied (he claimed he could remove people from the game) and roleclaimed on day 1, which allowed both vigis to shoot him night 1. But instead he was forgotten/ignored for the second half of the game. Town deserved to lose for that by itself.
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On August 24 2011 07:06 Qatol wrote:
Speaking as someone who helped balance the game, there is only 1 thing I thought really went wrong with the setup balance-wise: I don't think the bomberman should have been allowed to place more bombs after the first set went off. Also, I don't think the mafia should have been allowed to change the code word every cycle. The mafia was supposed to have stronger roles than the town - every town player had a role.
This game was only so one-sided because the town was lazy and got too caught up in their posting restrictions (most of which should have been relatively easy to recognize by reading the quiz or looking through the threads which talk about famous/funny moments on the forum). Also, the mafia got very lucky (doing things like blocking a vigi hit on one of their members night 1 and roleblocking the invention away).
The town did not need more investigative roles. The town needed to scumhunt better. For example, Pandain was handed to you on a silver platter day 1, but you never got around to killing him. Nobody even took a shot at him all game. He even lied (he claimed he could remove people from the game) and roleclaimed on day 1, which allowed both vigis to shoot him night 1. But instead he was forgotten/ignored for the second half of the game. Town deserved to lose for that by itself.
Just pure numbers-wise, 7 vs 23 is already almost 1/3 Mafia. Add in a Traitor and over 1/3 of the game is Mafia. Every Mafia power was amazingly better than the vanilla Mafia ones, the Traitor's was amazing (free mislynch if he ever got lynched plus a KP), whereas a lot of Town's powers were significantly worse than the vanilla game ones (Vigs that died if they mis-shot, I couldn't even pick my targets, etc). Add in that post restrictions were hugely helpful for Mafia while hugely harmful for Town.
No excuse for Town's play though, it was absolutely horrible regardless.
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You know, the funny thing is, if all the personalities that were turned into roles (Ace, Showtime!, L, 0cz3c, MrBabyHands, Bill Murray, Chezinu, annul, bumatlarge, etc.) had actually played a game together, it probably wouldn't have turned out too differently from this one. There would have been spam, there would have been silliness, and there would have been yelling. So, in a way, well done, everyone!
But yes, I do think this was one of those games that's fun in theory but not as fun in practice. It reminded me a little of the smurf game that Pyrrhuloxia hosted a while back, where everyone focused more on people's identities than their roles. (Minus, of course, Showtime! coming out and insulting the host, thank goodness.) It was great fun seeing what Ver and Incognito would come up with for appropriate roles to go with personalities. But then managing those 30+ unique roles in a game and balancing them, sometimes without anything to refer to, is an entirely different story. Kudos to Ver and especially Incognito for their hard work!
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Vigis that die if they mishoot was something I was gonna use in my next game, gonna tweak that anyway.
But:
1/3rd of the players Mafia
Lots of the Mafia lurking (remember my rules?)
Pandain lying (REMEMBER MY RULES?!)
That means after the 33% chance of hitting Scum (really good odds) you get 2 additional criteria to help you aim correctly. Blame the Vigis for that one.
I think it's really hard to judge role interactions because of what went on this game. When the Town has that many Blue Roles the hosts have no choice but to do something to give Mafia a chance to win.
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@Curu
I would never have defended Pandain like I did if we couldn't paint bum red. I'd have bussed him super hard.
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On August 24 2011 08:38 Palmar wrote:
@Curu
I would never have defended Pandain like I did if we couldn't paint bum red. I'd have bussed him super hard.
Maybe I'm wrong(and I am certainly wrong alot of the times) but I feel like this kind of thinking is wrong. If a mafia does a super stupid scum slip(read me when I slipped about a mafia role that town didn't know about), then yeah of course immediately bus him. But almost every town acts scummy at times and in fact I feel that I wasn't playing scummily except for the times I banned people(and that was for the lols).
But even when a mafia player plays scummily, you shouldn't bus him immediately. I felt confident that I could get away in the end with just "oh its pandain he's just retarded" and so I played that up this game. But scum can't just hound on a player immediately, it creates an atmosphere that makes it that I AM mafia, rather than "this player" thinks I am.
That's why even when Redff was accusing me, I knew I was safe because the logic he used wasn't right. But afterwards when Palmar and syllo start to agree and even vote me, then town goes on a "slippery slope".
But on the other hand, bussing someone immediately makes for a lot of town cred(if they turn out mafia.) It means you took the initiative. So I feel its an interesting payout vs rewards type of scenario.
However something I did learn was to be more careful. Even if someone's logic is wrong that doesn't mean town will discount it. In fact, without alot of "vets" to help guide the town the right way, people just go running off at random areas. In fact, had we lurked all game and I not gone active, mafia might not have been under suspicion nearly all game. Rather than look at who was playing scummily, town was looking at people who were messing up. And I think that was at the core of why town lost.
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main thing is just to listen to your team
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EPT
