EPTPersonality Mafia! - Page 86
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:34 Mig wrote: Qatol I don't think you guys took into account how badly PRs damage the town and how much they help the mafia when really balancing. Like YM can't accuse anyone who hasn't accused him. How is he supposed to do any analysis? Sandroba can only post 5 times a cycle. So one of the best town players is nearly removed from the game. How is the town supposed to be able to get any read on things like that? Especially day 1. So much time has to be devoted into personality hunting and PR hunting just to have any clue about whats going on instead of actually looking for scum. Sandroba had unlimited PM abilities. Get your read on him via PM. Plus he could have used someone as a mouth. I agree that YM's restriction was harsh, but that still doesn't excuse the town for ignoring the scum in front of their faces. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:50 Qatol wrote: Sandroba had unlimited PM abilities. Get your read on him via PM. Plus he could have used someone as a mouth. I agree that YM's restriction was harsh, but that still doesn't excuse the town for ignoring the scum in front of their faces. Having a townie flip red didn't help. That destroyed our confidence in who was scum. Sandroba being roleblocked neutered him. And c'mon a vig that has to lynch townies to get a bullet? Or a suicide bomber that can only hit 1 person that is also a townie. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On August 24 2011 10:00 Jackal58 wrote: Having a townie flip red didn't help. That destroyed our confidence in who was scum. Sandroba being roleblocked neutered him. And c'mon a vig that has to lynch townies to get a bullet? Or a suicide bomber that can only hit 1 person that is also a townie. Things never should have gotten that far to begin with. You relied too much upon your reads relating to bum. Sandroba never should have roleclaimed the way he did. He was just begging to get roleblocked. And even if he does, he's 1 townie. It just means someone else has to step up. It means all of you have to do the work and not just rely upon a small core of people + the investigative roles. If the mafia want to commit to roleblocking Sandroba, that means they cannot roleblock anyone else with that ability. That is an opportunity for the town. Think of your role as a mitigation role just in case the town is wrong on one of a few players. Your role had the most potential KP out of any town role. It's supposed to keep the town in the game if they happen to bandwagon some players incorrectly. | ||
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
This was a very new experience for me and there were a lot of powers and actions that I had never seen before and had pretty much no way to prepare for mentally. Looking back I can say, "man, I should have done this" but there wasn't really much time to get things straight with what was going on. The main problem for the town in my opinion was that there was a ton of confusion but none of it had to be created by the mafia. If there were another game in this style I think the town would play a lot better simply because more people would be ready for the style of game that they're in. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
I hate dying night 1 -_- | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
The game was bound to be very volatile either way given the massive ability selection. Yes we did realize Caller's role is insanely broken. I mostly wanted to see how it would work; it certainly gives the mafia a new dimension, but is also very unfair to the town. However, we felt that the town had a huge advantage otherwise, most notably in how easily they could have just killed the mafia really early on. 2 1 shot vigis, a nuker, a 2 shot vigi, and an infinite kill assassin, all with limitations yes, but still they could have very easily killed most/all of the mafia had their target choices been better. Yes, some of the town roles were not strictly pro-town powers as much as the ability to take matters into your own hands if the town is being stupid. But the pro-town powers themselves were quite strong. Several things I think we did wrong:
2) Opz's role not being adjusted like qatol said. This was definitely way too strong. 3) Attackzerg's suicide bomber should not be any time, but only in night. 4) Not being a nazi on the spam early game which discouraged a lot of players i think 5) The Fishball role is rather awkward and should have been changed probably (though it is an either/or role, not an and role) 6) Rol should've been an 'anti-lurker' vigilante like he used in his RTM game. Seeing so many people squeak by on no posts was just sad. Again, my fault for not being here enough. 7) Maybe change the kp formula to make mafia drop to 2 with 5 or less. But let's look at how this could've played differently just from the first 2 days:
2) meapak assassinates pandain (how did he live again??) 3) rol uses his witch power to save any of the key people who died night 1. 4) kav gives his invention to someone besides sandroba who can actually use it w/o roleblock fear (curu wouldve been my pick) 5) bum doesn't nuke kav (????) The game would've been completely different. Then you add in things like tnkted lying about his role so that it wouldn't get stolen and no day 4 disaster happening, etc. The only thing that actually went right for the town this game was jackal suicide bombing sandroba for the lulz and killing syllogism, but not sandroba! but still... pandain living after that day 1 and 2 debacle....can't put in words how ridiculous that was. Also funny how Kenpachi was basically ignored and probably had the easiest win of player role in history. On August 24 2011 10:57 Scamp wrote: The main problem for the town in my opinion was that there was a ton of confusion but none of it had to be created by the mafia. If there were another game in this style I think the town would play a lot better simply because more people would be ready for the style of game that they're in. Quite a good summary. Along those lines, I'm not sure how much the post restrictions actually hurt the town, if, they were more familiar with the format. Obviously they made life far harder for the town, but I think it was more of an adjustment thing considering a lot of the post restrictions fit the players almost exactly. I,e you can't really say that Sandroba's life as Ver was so hard, considering that my average posting quantity is probably around 5-6 posts/cycle and for example in 37, I barely used pm's at all. Chezinu is not exactly the most transparent townie in the world to say the least, and kav mirrored him extremely well. Showtime really did waste everyone's time making many lists like that, etc. On the other hand some of them clearly didn't fit well at all (like YM/kenpachi and Rol/bum), which was our fault for not assigning roles more intelligently. Would it have been better to give the mafia harsher restrictions? The LSB role (kitaman) had a terrible restriction that he pulled off splendidly; even funnier was LSB himself was the only one to pick up on kita being mafia early on despite how anti town he was hehe. Most of their other restrictions, besides wiggles, were not particularly troublesome though and that might have been a mistake. Lastly, would you guys be interested in this with a smaller player count and tweaked setup? Would it be more enjoyable a second time around with nazi rules on spam and a better idea of what to expect? I'm not sure if having post restrictions being given away or not would really improve the game; it would kinda take all the fun out of the personality part and just make it a normal mafia game with quirky roles and people randomly having to post predetermined things. Still interested to hear what you think either way, thanks. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On August 24 2011 10:33 Qatol wrote: Things never should have gotten that far to begin with. You relied too much upon your reads relating to bum. Sandroba never should have roleclaimed the way he did. He was just begging to get roleblocked. And even if he does, he's 1 townie. It just means someone else has to step up. It means all of you have to do the work and not just rely upon a small core of people + the investigative roles. If the mafia want to commit to roleblocking Sandroba, that means they cannot roleblock anyone else with that ability. That is an opportunity for the town. Think of your role as a mitigation role just in case the town is wrong on one of a few players. Your role had the most potential KP out of any town role. It's supposed to keep the town in the game if they happen to bandwagon some players incorrectly. After Kurumi flipped town when he was vigi'd (Still don't know why that happened) I figured the rest on my list were also town. If any of them came up as a serious lynch candidate I would have tried to prevent it. Was never an issue. They were all scum kills. When i suicided on Sandroba I was hoping for the best case scenario. Role blocker plus a hitman. I only got a role blocker. Turned it into a 2 for 1. 2nd best case was Sandroba was scum it it was a 1 for 1. Ya I got the 2 townies for 1 scum scenario. Was still better than my worse case scenario of 2 townies and no scum | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On August 24 2011 11:45 Jackal58 wrote: After Kurumi flipped town when he was vigi'd (Still don't know why that happened) I figured the rest on my list were also town. If any of them came up as a serious lynch candidate I would have tried to prevent it. Was never an issue. They were all scum kills. When i suicided on Sandroba I was hoping for the best case scenario. Role blocker plus a hitman. I only got a role blocker. Turned it into a 2 for 1. 2nd best case was Sandroba was scum it it was a 1 for 1. Ya I got the 2 townies for 1 scum scenario. Was still better than my worse case scenario of 2 townies and no scum I vigi'd Kurumi because I thought he was more detrimental towards town than, well, anyone else. Kita, Pandain, and tnkted were my other targets for the night, but neither kita nor tnkted claimed, and I was unsure of Pandain. And by the time I had read through the thread, I was so fed up with the Kurumi+Jackal spam, I just wanted Kurumi dead. | ||
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Scorch[DeltA]
Mexico41 Posts
I love the idea of people playing out roles of people who have played for a long time, too bad it didn't work out so well. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Second, I think that Chez has somehow done the impossible and built up a meta that makes him completely useless. I mean, even if he's being useful, and helping, nobody pays attention to him. I said so many things and tried to help in so many ways but people immediately dismissed my posts because they were in a "Chez" voice. As far as my invention goes, I talked to Sandroba extensively about who I should give it to. He was of course the perfect man to plan with, since I could tell him about my power (not allowed to do it in thread), and because he would know who everyone is. I was hesitant about giving it to him for many reasons, but I trusted that he had a plan, and I was stupid to think that the mafia wouldn't realize how broken his role was, and RB him from then on. I wish I had put in a mechanic that would have allowed him to pass it on to someone else. I'm not entirely sure how the bomberman works, but giving someone who has been talking about his insanity all the time the key word "insane" was so sure of a shot to kill me, I'm not sure why it wasn't just a day vig. I did actually think that Aidnai was mafia, but that was just me being a idiot and making assumptions I shouldn't have made. I'll try to learn from that. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On August 24 2011 12:48 Scorch[DeltA] wrote: This game looks insanely complicated. Is this usual for a theme'd game? I love the idea of people playing out roles of people who have played for a long time, too bad it didn't work out so well. I would say this is above average because of the posting restrictions. There are games (PYP, Insane, etc.) where there are tons of complicated roles, but the PR's pushed this one over the top. On August 24 2011 01:35 kitaman27 wrote: Not our fault we can't distinguish your town play from your traitor play <3 I looked at his play after I died, and pretty much all he does is look for, find, then out information in the thread. There is NO reason for a townie to do this, there's no reason for mafia to do this. Even before I found out that he was traitor, I knew something was up with BC, and after I knew it became blindingly obvious to me. Maybe it's just that hind-sight, but I thought that BC was a pretty transparent traitor. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
This was definitely an unpolished setup. It could have easily taken a few more days of extra tweaking, reviewing, and refining, but due to the pre-game restlessness, I made a bad decision to try to pump it out as fast as possible. The imperfection of the setup can be evidenced by the massive amount of PMs I received over the course of the game, which comes out to no less than 250 PMs. Overall the rules and roles were not clearly defined enough, and there were still some ambiguities (and errors) with role PM wording, such as Pandain/Mig lovers, and the infinite bombs by ~OpZ~. (Barundar shouldn't have been able to place any more bombs after the one explosion had went off, but I didn't realize this mistake until it was too late. In hindsight, having this rule implemented would also probably have made it easier for both the mafia and me when they were coming up with a code word (they wouldn't have even wanted the code word to be too easy, or else the bombs would blow up too soon and they wouldn't have been able to maximize their KP)). For the sake of brevity, I won't add too much to what Ver/Qatol mentioned, although for the most part, I agree with them. The game was quite volatile and could have swung in either direction. I remember earlier in the game flamewheel complaining that the town was loaded with high profile players, which unfortunately for the town didn't play as big of a role as it could have. Besides the brokenness of the bomberman role, the mafia really wasn't as overpowered as has been claimed. The low number of information roles coupled with the high number of KP roles was intentional. You guys have to stop thinking that you can win by just sitting around and hoping a nice DT check will show you all the mafia. There was almost no scumhunting going on in this game, and what littler there was ended up being too weak and not conclusive enough. Granted, nobody asked the right questions or attempted to force the mafia's hand, but some of the mafia were blatantly red. RoL's use of the witch style role was hillarious in this game, though suboptimal. A quick recap of night 3: Mafia decide to hit tnkted, VisceraEyes, and sandroba. At the same time, jackal decides to use his role and suicide into sandroba for the luls. Though its seemingly ridiculous to suicide into someone who is generally regarded as a townie, this move had some logic to it. sandroba was roleblocked the previous two days, so jackal was hoping to catch the roleblocker in the suicide attempt. He did, in fact, kill syllogism, the roleblocker in the blast, although syllogism didn't roleblock sandroba but rather shot him. The funny part though, is that RoL understandably decided to use his powers to save sandroba, but unwittingly died in the process because of jackal's suicide. Furthermore, his sandroba save would only last for 15 minutes. Meanwhile, kitaman used his role to force tnkted to claim, and when he figured out that tnkted had the power to end the lynch early, decided to use his role swapping powers to steal that power. With redFF's impulsive vote on sandroba, kitaman ended the vote right there, resulting in sandroba's instant death. Although this was hillarious, the witch role should always be used on night 1. Saving a life at this stage of the game is more critical than later in the game, as there are a higher concentration of active and potentially game changing townies early game. On post restrictions: Although post restrictions presented a challenge to the town, I think its effects on the game were more psychological than actual. If you read the roles, only a handful of them really have harsh post restrictions. Most of the zealous posts in this game were townies acting of their own accord. Kurumi and Kavdragon, two of the arguably more distracting townies, really were not forced to make such extravagant roleplays. In general, I think that the post restrictions were more of a turnoff than an actual hinderance. If this setup is ever run in the future, we'll probably have to revamp the entire system and perhaps remove actual restrictions in favor of conditional powers provided that some role playing goes on. On sandroba and the PM circle: I'm not exactly sure what went on in PM land, but it seems like there was too much loose lips going on in PM land. The ability to PM everyone is extremely potent, especially in an otherwise non-PM game, however, it should be used more for information gathering purposes rather than mass roleclaims. From what I gather from the mafia, their decision to roleblock sandroba was due to the rumors going on about a lot of people roleclaiming to sandroba, the fear that many of these roles were imbalanced in favor of town, and the fear of a role-based town circle forming. As in the tnkted roleclaim, the use of PMs was too open, and there was too much transparency going on. Town gave away too much critical information and got shot in the foot because of it. The list check was lost as a result of this, and town lost their ability to collect behind the scenes information. On the bumatlarge lynch: The bumatlarge lynch was a terrible lynch to push. Ok, bumatlarge nukes a player who flips townie before the day even ends. How is this in any way worse than Pandain, who strips two players of their powers when he doesn't even think they are mafia? For all intensive purposes, the bumatlarge case was a mirror of the Pandain case. Any lynch on bum must have been compared to a potential lynch of Pandain, who made similar actions (except in a much more anti-town way). Also consider that bumatlarge's nuke target blows up before the nuke lands, and you have to be left wondering how Kavdragon died mid day, and if this was a town or mafia action. Clearly, it doesn't make sense for the mafia to both nuke and bomb Kavdragon on the same day. *As a side note, its funny how the nuke situation here very closely mirrors PYP Insane. The nuker nukes out of the blue and is under clear pressure from the town. Both times, the nuke is aimed at either Chezinu the player, or Chezinu the role. Both times, the nuke doesn't kill the intended target. The only difference is that while the PYPI nuke led to a mafia catch (or two), this case led to a townie lynch, who was only framed as mafia. Special mention to a few players who stood out in playing their roles. Kavdragon, who did an awesome, realistic, (and useful!) impression of Chezinu kitaman27, who made two hillarious plan posts in true LSB fashion. Flamewheel, who left some nice clues addressing players as Comrade X, even though this was not in his post restriction. I may do a more serious analysis of what went on in this game later if people are interested, but I sent Kavdragon something relating to day 1 that might be of interest to some players. He's free to post that if he wants, otherwise if you're interested just PM me. + Show Spoiler + I should make more uses of quotes and lists like Ver in order to break up the obvious walls of text that this is. | ||
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Barundar
Denmark1582 Posts
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Barundar
Denmark1582 Posts
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tnkted
United States1359 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Finally not busy. Overall, you did a lot to influence the game in the short period while you were alive. There were multiple aspects of your play, some of which were very good, and some of which were sub optimal. Overall though, you gave a strong performance, especially considering you had a tough role to play and had severe limitations on what you could tell the town. You executed your strategy well, but lost sight of the overall picture, which caused town to flounder and forget some very important information. In terms of roleplaying, you did a phenomenal job, probably the best performance in the game. On top of that, your posts had an agenda behind them, which I thought was quite cool. If this were a normal game, your actions would have been a good focal point to get the town discussion moving, but unfortunately, the thread was already cluttered by the time you arrived on the scene. Town already had massive amounts of information to deal with, including the Kurumi/Jackal claims as well as Pandain's obvious anti-town actions. I can't blame you for pushing aidnai hard day 1, but the town needed to act on all the pieces of information in the thread and weave together a coherent narrative. Your actions on day 1 definitely distracted the town from important matters, but it certainly isn't your fault for the town's mistake, as from your perspective, you definitely had a lot at stake. On a side note, one error you made was assuming that aidnai was mafia. I understand how the PM wording could have led you to that conclusion, but for the most part it was for flavor. Chezinu is cast as an insane character who has an inner struggle, or civil war, with himself. The intention was just that you two needed to kill each other to activate your powers, as you both had the exact same role. There's really no clear and fast way to arrive at the conclusion that you were both town, but it would be kinda lame if one of you were mafia, as it would be too easy for the mafia Chezinu to just shoot you at night and gain the insanely powerful inventor ability. On the other hand, we didn't really want to suggest that you two were both town, so we tried to leave it ambiguous. It might not have been the best way to do it, but that was our fault. From the perspective of powers, you did the right thing. It would definitely have been a bad idea to wait til day 2 or later to attack aidnai, as that would have a) delayed your invention, and b) distracted the town even further. Your move against aidnai day 1 was certainly a reasonable proposition. You know that you have the inventor power, which is extremely powerful and can definitely give the town a decisive advantage. Unfortunately the invention didn't turn out well, as sandroba was never able to use it. In all honesty, theres no better day to push aidnai's lynch than day 1. If you wait until day 2, that means that the invention cannot be made until night 2, and the player you give it to can't use it until night 3, so its not until day 4 where the results of your invention can impact the town. By then, it may be too late to impact the game in a meaningful way, depending on what happens in the previous 3 days. In addition, you always had to worry about the risk of dying, so getting your invention off ASAP was definitely the correct move. How you did it, however, could have been improved. As a townie, what you're trying to do is maximize the town powers while also keeping the town reasonably focused on the thread. You spent too much time planning your crazy stories around aidnai, which confused the town more than it answered questions. At this point in the game, there are many unanswered questions surrounding Kurumi, jackal, and Pandain, especially with the Kurumi Ban looming in the thread. Your attack on aidnai was not convincing enough to be categorized as a true mafia read, and you took too long to get there, which wasted half the day, as townies were running around wondering if there was really any meaning to your stories. Any clear-thinking townie should have been able to pick up that it was a setup, but your mysterious ways, although brilliant from a flavor perspective, was a more pro-mafia action that spammed up the Pandain action and let him get away. Before your arrival onto the scene, Pandain was picking up a significant number of votes, and this could have severely altered the course of the game. On day 1, you clearly had an agenda - kill aidnai and use your inventor powers before you get shot by the mafia. A very strong plan, especially considering that you believed aidnai to be mafia. However, your plan was too focused around your role and didn't consider the town's needs as a whole. You needed to get aidnai lynched while maintaining clarity in the town rather than mystery. I would have taken a dual pronged approach by pushing both Pandain and aidnai in the thread. You could have still maintained story form, and this would have kept town focused on Pandain while you were still moving on aidnai. A two pronged approach would also have been awkward for the mafia, given Pandain's obviously anti-town actions and the fact that they knew of Pandain's guilt. If you look back at day 1, you'll notice that the mafia instantly bandwagoned on Pandain after his Kurumi ban, and even got some heat for it from townies. But once you popped on the scene, all talk of Pandain quickly died down. The mafia noticed that with the introduction of your attacks on aidnai, they could get away with ignoring Pandain. The mafia knew that nobody was paying attention to the Pandain ordeal, so they could safely abandon the Pandain wagon with the comfort that nobody was actually paying attention. Using a double attack would have benefited the town in two ways. First, this would make the lynch a lot closer, which raises the stakes for the mafia and forces the them into a more active position. Second, it would bait more information out of everyone, as there would be no clear sided lynch. Day 1 discussion pretty much died after the first 6 or so votes on aidnai, and the rest of the day turned into people trying to convince others to vote for aidnai instead of active debate over who was mafia. This represents lost information, as mafia should be a game about debating a lynch, not agreeing on a lynch and then spending the rest of the time convincing (not very strongly opinionated) lurkers to vote for your candidate. In other words, the only opposition to the aidnai lynch was inactivity and complacency, and the lynch could have been described as an "aidnai v. no lynch" lynch. You should have taken advantage of this by turning the situation into an aidnai v. Pandain lynch, which would have drawn much more heated discussion and drawn out more information. Mafia easily got away with lurking this game because of all the distraction that went on. As long as you made it clear that you didn't forget about Pandain's massive screwups, the mafia would not be able to comfortably abandon him, and would be caught between the two conflicting ideas of "should we bus Pandain? to save the rest of the team" or "should we hit the mislynch on aidnai and hope town forgets Pandain?" By making it a one sided lynch, mafia avoided this difficult decision, and was allowed to skate by relatively scot free. Basically, the lack of pressure on Pandain allowed mafia to carry out their agenda without fear of being discovered. A two pronged attack would have benefited everyone. The town would benefit by staying focused on a critical issue, you would benefit from being able to keep aidnai on the center stage, and the mafia would be forced on the defensive and would have to give up either Pandain or information. You wouldn't have been able to both kill Pandain and grab your inventor power, but the choice between having an invention, and having a dead mafia along with a large paper trail is not a very bad choice at all. A pass along clause would be nice. Honestly, I was thinking that he should be allowed to pass on the invention, as it can be considered an "object" and isn't tied to his role. But Ver decided otherwise since it wasn't explicitly stated, and since a list check is a very powerful power. I don't know what was going on in PM land or what information you had regarding sandroba, but from what I can tell, sandroba was PMing too many people and receiving too many roleclaims. The mafia knew about this, so their decision to roleblock sandroba was completely justified. Giving him a list check power is like throwing all your eggs in one basket, in my opinion. | ||
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