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On June 25 2011 13:35 GMarshal wrote: Why does no one comment on my post? I take it from the silence that we are all ok with lynching Chez then, right? No one seems to be complaining... And my policies are now accepted by all, right? I will defend chezinu's right to live until the end of days. Conversley, I will support any lynch initiative on bloody_c0bbler. | ||
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I am heading to bed now, but when I get back I will try to get my thoughts on no flips games out there. | ||
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On June 26 2011 05:02 Radfield wrote: This doesn't really make sense to me. Scum already have a deterent to false claiming dt, in that they will be trading 1 for 1. There is only potential upside to lynching the dt second, as we may be able to verify via a coroner. Yes it's possible/likely that we won't be able to verify the dt, but it's worth trying. Obviously at LYLO things change though. I can't see any potential upside to killing the dt first. Do not play in trying to guess Ace's roles included int he game. I used that as a basis for an analysis in Toy Factory which resulted in me trusting Annul which contributed to the rape that occurred that game. I actually completely agree with how any sort of detective type role should be used this game. If you find a scum, push them using an analysis. Claiming DT will result in us killing you out of safety, a fake DT claim in a no flip scenario is simply way too deadly. In that sense any claim of DT will be met with swift and decisive death. We have no way of confirming anything said by a DT and it has the potential to royally fuck up the town. We need to stick to this no matter what. On a related note. Any type of detective role should stick to investigating less active individuals. I seriously doubt this will be an issue in this game due to the player base, but it is something worth stating. I am so disappointed with how XLII was basically thrown away by 1/5th if not more of the town lurking and it putting us in an impossible situation. It's another reason I am happy this game is small with known active players. Off the top of my head, if we somehow have few/no inactive players, I would recommend checking any player significantly influential in town decision, that means any vocal townie who is leading lynches. The important thing is that when you find a scum, do NOT role claim. Create analysis on that person, constantly push their guilt, but under no circumstances do you claim. From a mafia perspective killing you would then just draw people to your analysis, so its a double edged sword. You protect yourself and push a mafia by one simple act of pushing your suspects without claiming. | ||
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On June 26 2011 05:07 Amber[LighT] wrote: No lynch is bad for town. Town gains NOTHING from no-lynching. Period. We have a 0% chance of lynching mafia if we don't lynch. We have a slightly higher % chance of lynching mafia if we do. Lynching is a town weapon. Don't disable it or suggest disabling it. I fail to see how no lynch at any point in the game is helpful in this setup. Arguably, if a no lynch can extend the game by a cycle, the chances of hitting a mafia with a lynch later in the game increases drastically from day 1. I see the pros and cons to both sides of the argument. Pro no lynch -Mafia have an easier time influencing lynches earlier on, and it becomes harder later on. -If a no lynch mathematically extends the game another cycle, we will inherently have more information to work off of, as well as fewer players remaining in the game. Con no lynch -We waste a day and don't gain any information on who was trying to lynch who, because a no lynch is inherently neutral. -While it may extend the game mathematically, in a closed set up we can't predict possible vigilante or surprise mafia KP. So we might just toss away a lynch for absolutely no reason. To the argument that a no lynch has a 0% chance of hitting a mafia, well it also has a 0% chance of hitting a town. Ignoring mafia influence on lynches, we are statistically fucked in that situation either way. Count in mafia who can influence the lynch, and that percentage drops substantially. As i said earlier, I don't feel like betting on what lies in the darkness. I know that I can't get that lynch back if we no lynch, and I don't know for certain that it will extend the day cycle. In that sense I would rather kill someone which should generate more discussion than a neutral no lynch, and be sure to have used kill power properly. | ||
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Well, I guess I don't have to push your lynch just to make that statement not true anymore | ||
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On June 26 2011 11:27 GMarshal wrote: 100% Agree, we should not ever not lynch. Its giving the mafia free nights, by the time the end of day 1 rolls around we'll have 72 hours of information on people. Thats more than enough to make an informed decision on who we are going to lynch. Not lynching leaves us with no chance of killing mafia, that is unacceptable. I'll take a high chance of screwing up and missing over no chance of hitting scum any day. I agree with you fully on this one Scamp. The bold part. I explained above that I don't believe we are going to hit a mafia Day 1, and that information builds over time, and if we could guarantee that it would add another day to the game (essentially pushing back the lynch) then it would be beneficial to not lynch. However we can't guarantee that, so I'd prefer we use the lynch. The second part I disagreed with is your rationale of not lynching leaving us with no chance of killing a mafia so we should lynch. I think there is a disproportionately high chance that we will hit a townie Day 1, and I don't believe we have sufficient information to avoid fucking up after 72 hours. This goes back to my first point, If I knew a no lynch would add another day at the end of the game, I'd be for it since a hypothetical day 6/7 lynch has way more information than a day 1 lynch. But since we can't guarantee that extra day, I would rather risk the lynch. At the same time I know a day 1 lynch is prone to heavy mafia manipulation, I know that if I focus hard and pick out the right target with good analysis I will hopefully be able to out argue mafia manipulation. That is my rationale and it leads to the same conclusion you have, but for entirely different reasoning. | ||
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The catch with those is that they temporarily raise mafia KP while not being a permanent asset to the mafia. | ||
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On June 28 2011 23:55 deconduo wrote: Hmm, RoL has one post in this game and 16 in RTM over the same time period. Hardcore lurking going on there. ##Vote RebithOfLegend Sorry, I am going to catch up now. RTM required quote a bit of focus especially in the early hours of the game. I think I got something like 25 PM's within the first few hours, not to mention thread questions and actions. | ||
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Anyway, I have reads that I am going to share with you all. I tend to categorize people as red gray or town. First off let's start off with a list of people who are town. I am not going to explain my reasoning ind detail because simply reading their posts should give you the idea. This list is in no particular order. Fishball- Generally has that I don't give a FUCK attitude, but his contributions are noteworthy. He's a notoriously difficult player to read though. I'd say likely town currently. BC- I'd say he seems generally way more interested in this game than he was in XLII. I agree with his analysis more or less. Chaoser was posting dumb shit, and I did agree with his initial read on Radfield. Palmar- I think this guy is my twin. I agree with almost everything he has said so far. Kurumi looks like shit. This is the list of gray. People who are either too incompetent, inactive or insane to actually get a good read off of. Deconduo- I know I will get flack for this, but generally he is not that aggressive as mafia. Going head to head and being as aggressive as he was being is just plain stupid as mafia. I honestly think he is just playing terribly. He has said so many dumb things that look scummy but are too aggressive and stupid and if I was on his scum team I would of been screaming at him to shut the fuck up as of 6 hours into N0. But there seriously is no ignoring how scummy some things he has said are, like Kill fishball he's 75% town. Caller- Troll, not really contributing that much. Chezinu- See above. Sandroba- Posting nothing, supports LSB? Odd. Actually defends himself fairly well to fishballs accusations. Going in the gray area. Scamp- Not particularly active, but he doesn't strike me as a lurking mafia. I'd hope he gets more active with time to allow a better read. I know when I played scum with him a few times he hard lurked, but that was literally years ago and people change and I know he is considered a good player now. If you don't start doing shit though I will be disappointed and try to get you vigi'd or lynched. Radfield- I might get some flack about this, but my initial gripe with him was just how wordy all of his posts were, and just how obvious the things he was saying were. He was however one of the first to start posting and obvious shit is kind of standard for that. My biggest issue was how I viewed him trying to disguise it using enormous paragraphs. Although, I seem to remember his style being fairly wordy in the past. When BC attacks him and he responded to it, it confirmed my thoughts about radfield just utterly hating his keyboard. I would definitely keep an eye on him, but for now I'd let him slide simply because of the following people being infinitely worse. *I don't feel like rewriting this paragraph but I forgot to mention how sketchy I found his emphasis on lurkers too. The list of scummy peoplez Amber[LighT]- Seriously, you have done almost nothing and your posts wreak of shit. Look at his posts on page 10 as a perfect example. What he is saying is just stupid. We need 13 to lynch so mafia won't ALL JUMP SHIP to kill a probable different townie who theoretically has EVERY other vote? Calling people scummy for speculating on the extra night kill? On top of that your contributions after that consist of a flow chart. Shape the fuck up. Kurumi- You haven't contributed ANYTHING. Seriously, all game. Nothing. You have spammed relentlessly and it's irritating as fuck. It just screams scummy. Post your actual thoughts on someone and stop just posting for the sake of posting. I half almost put you into the gray but the sheer amount of your posts and how little you feel you need to contribute bumped you down to the red. Ilovejonn- You have literally not had a thought of your own and even admit to blatently echoing other peoples thoughts. Contribute or die. Chaoser/VisceraEyes- Chaoser looked really bad early on, like he was trying to feign activity and does deserve the lynch for that, and Viscera's first post as the replacement is accusing Palmar, in my opinion one of the more pro town players. I think we are fine lynching him today. LSB- Your posting has SUCKED. Hard. You express a shitty opinion on the Deconduo/Fishball situation after it had already been more or less resolved. Considered I view them both as town, I would view this as you fanning the fire. | ||
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##Vote: VisceraEyes As an aside to that, I want to point out I feel MUCH stronger about town reads in general than I do about scum reads. I find it to be MUCH more useful to figure out who is town based off posting and not simply who is scummy. People like Gmarshal can blatantly stand out as contributing protown players even on Day 1, while scummy people can float in a gray area. I then use what I believe to be my most accurate reads to watch interactions between players like with LSB on Fishball/Deconduo, which if I assume I am right is a really scummy perspective to use. Sorry for my inactivity earlier on, RTM took a lot of work to get started while updating rules/OP's and briefing all the cohosts while answering PM's. THEN I WATCHED XFILES BECAUSE MULDER IS THE SHIT. | ||
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On June 29 2011 04:15 Palmar wrote: I don't like either of the lynch targets at the moment. Chaoser/VisEyes is being voted for not contributing, but well... he got replaced out of the game because he didn't have time, and VisEyes just came in. deconduo's actions make no sense at all, not as mafia and not as town. It's astonishing he did what he did, but my best bet at the moment is to put it down to terrible town play. We can always lynch him tomorrow if the mafia doesn't end him. So, in my opinion we need to think up a new lynch. I don't think it was for lack of contributing so much as what the little Chaoser contributed was. Some shitty list which could be used to feign actually being active, and then VisceraEyes attacking you when you appear pro town. I was actually going to suggest switching to Kurumi as well until I saw VisceraEyes first contribution attacking town players. | ||
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On June 29 2011 04:55 Kurumi wrote: Sure You want to lynch Radfield scum,You killed GMarshal now You need to get rid of Radfield. Classic. I might contribute but since noone's making a case against me (just "herp derp he is trolling,so is Caller but he is scum Caller is not" nonsense) Also, thirteen wait for another transmission. lol is this a joke? You just said that you might contribute, but since no one is making a case against you fuck it? I am officially okay with killing Kurumi instead of viscera and giving viscera another day for redemption. | ||
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On June 29 2011 04:59 Kurumi wrote: Well,people accuse me without any case going on and want force me to speed up things I am doing right now,I was busy breadcrumbing my role,let me work seriously now,because this is heading ridiculously wrong. You have 1.5 hours to produce something useful then I switch my vote. | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:22 ilovejonn wrote: Please, if you have time to post right now if you're at work or whatever then do it right now. I'd love to see how I'm the strongest case for Day 1 lynch. Oh, and what happened to we should lynch inactive/lurkers? If you can convince the whole town to lynch me when I'm at work 6 pm - 1 am I'll be amazed, and also depressed. Remember when Radfield said it a Day 1 no-lynch isn't too bad? Yeah, that's where I disagree with him. There are plenty of lynch candidates right now. Also, what happened to the people saying we should never no-lynch yet are not doing anything about it. Look at how many lone votes on a single person there are. The way things are heading right now by deadline comes there won't even be a lynch if we can't come down to 2 targets max. I'm going to hold off on Vis since he just subbed in and made points allowing us to see where he stand on things, but my vote stays on deconduo. I don't know what he is trying to do but it's not helping town. How can he prove after the night that he is a vig and shot someone and not just scum/SK? As been said by tons of people it's all wifom. We can either buckle down on 1 lurker/troll and 1 person we think is scummy, better than having more than 4 targets up for lynch. Kurumi/Caller + deconduo would be my choices. FOS on people voting for no reason and people having a lone vote on very weak cases. Do you see the contradiction here? | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:35 Jackal58 wrote: The problem I have with that atm is I think he's most likely town. I don't subscribe to the "useless townie" theory. Useless townies are inactive and the host deals with them through modkills. The one time I pushed the useless townie card was on Bill Murray. It almost cost us the game. I'd rather not revisit that scenario. I agree sort of, but apparently yelling at him and saying we are going to kill him right now was the only way to get him to actually write something. Kurumi seriously, if you aren't going to willingly post or contribute, why even bother playing? | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:38 Kurumi wrote: Why Hesmyrr or Palmar are Scum Let's look at what Hesmyrr contributed before he got replaced... + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2011 03:29 Hesmyrr wrote: GMarshal, about , why are lynching DT claim first? I know every guilty result claim should be regarded with skepticism (especially when one consecutively claims to have found guilty in which case your statement might be justified) but as long as the possibility of coroner - or any role that can somehow 'check' validity of one's statement - exists it should be net loss for us to lynch the DT first. Radfield basically ninja tl;dr'd what I wanted to say. Noone gives a damn that someone said what You wanted to. Voice Your opinion in Your OWN words,when You agree with something,BACK THE SHIT UP. Also look at his addition to "lynch DT before his claimed guilty" He says that we should lynch DT's target and make Coroner check the dead body.. What this gives us? WIFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. A lot. So: DT says X is Mafia. We lynch X. REAL Coroner reveals(OH MY GOD YOU ARE DEAD SON) and confirms that the dead guy is scum. Yay,two real blues revealed! Good deal for mafia. False DT says X is Mafia (he is not) We lynch X. False Coroner reveals and confirms that the dead guy was indeed Mafia. Hooray,our lynches are now Scum's! False DT says X is Mafia (he is not) Real Coroner denies it. Now even more Wifom emerges and I am already tired of thinking how bad could it end when scenarios like that appear. The other post is about how terrible Toy Factory Mafia was for Town or shit like that,we're done with Hesmyrr's posts. Yeah. Now Palmar. He jumps into a game with a plan.. TERRIBLE PLAN. Well,for us,not for them Scum. + Show Spoiler + On June 28 2011 09:21 Palmar wrote: I seem to have entered the thread at a great time. The town is lost in disarray, confusion and fear, but no longer do you have to suffer from this, as your savior has arrived. Since I missed all the fun on discussing policies, I'll chime in on them a bit. Vigs should shoot first night, and every night there after. I don't care if this means the game is shorter, it means that higher percentage of the kills are town kills, and thus in effect reducing the number of mafia kills. As any vig hit is guaranteed not to hit one townie, it has a slightly higher chance of success than a lynch. So fire away my friends! Any people pushing for no lynches, or no shooting are not my friends. Also, deconduo is probably scum. I suggest we either lynch him or ask for a specific kill target or something. I also think Kurumi is scum, but I guess that can wait a bit. He suggests that we should make our furniture from bodies,sounds fun. Sure that Vigilante shooting won't shoot himself,but since it is no-flip NOTHING is confirmed. You shot 100% Scum in Your eyes? Better pray he wasn't last Coroner. You shot semi-lurking guy? He better wasn't DT who had 2 Red checks in his pocket. Also shooting like that gives even more chaos. "I think X was Mafia shot!" "I think it was Z,he was active!" Fuck that,we had two kills Night 0 which were something we totally did not expect. Vigilantes are not for shooting randomly,Vigilantes are DTs who give confirmed checks in any other game. In this game,they're KILLERS. They don't prove anything,they only silence the person they killed. I'd like You to look at this sentence END. Where's Your voice about no lynches? Why is it bad? You just threw it out like that. "NO LYNCHES ARE BAD SON AND YOU BETTER BELIEVE YOUR DADDY" Nope. He brings two scum suspects,one already under pressure and other flying under the radar. He leaves a spot for Deconduo to "redeem" himself,but in my case,he is like: "He is scum,but this isn't our priority now" Wat. Really? If I am scum,PUSH MY LYNCH,GET ME DEAD. I am scum right? Well,in Your eyes maybe yes,but I know my role. 13 2 6 3 2 2 13 Now pardon me for a bit. I should of read your post before writing. You realize like 90% of your post is based around some sort of fictitious coroner role which might not even exist? I mean, maybe it does, but we have no way of proving whether or not it does and therefore any plan based around absolute uncertainty is stupid. I will have to find that post where hessmyr/palmar say to lynch the DT check and not the DT. We have beat that topic senseless. If you are stupid enough to claim DT when it can't be proved we will kill you first. If you DT check someone and they come back scum it really shouldn't be too hard to posts that make them look scummy and allow you to (rightfully) tunnel them. | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not saying don't use the tool Palmar, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't just have them blindly shooting every single cycle just because they can. It WILL hurt town as they WILL hit more town than scum. Save Vig shots for people who are clearly and obviously scummy. Granted, you won't get as much of that in this PARTICULAR game, but just having them fire at random people every opportunity would be........insane. These two sentences contradict each other. I agree with palmar for the most part. We shouldn't hold back hits for the sake of holding them back. If you have KP and have someone you think is scum for whatever reason go for it. There is almost no reason to wait for general town consensus on who is scum and fire a shot. I have pushed this agenda in there games, and I will do it now. I think single people are better at making educated decisions than a group, at least when it comes to killing a mafia. I would also rather our KP get's used than it not be used, but I wouldn't say use ALL of it on Night 1, that would be foolish. But I wouldn't say hold onto your kill like it's a first born. Kill people you find scummy, as you said in the bold, we are never going to be absolutely certain someone as scum to make a unilateral decision, and holding out for that 99% guarantee just isn't going to happen. Err I droned a bit, but to summarize as soon as our KP roles have someone they reasonably think is scummy, just fire the shot. Don't even think twice. I wouldn't go as far to say that ALL KP should be used N1 though, that might be a bit too crazy. | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:57 Caller wrote: rol what kind of no reveal game doesnt have a necrophile that can check dead peoples' allignments? It probably does, but we can't know for sure. It's the same as no lynching off the hopes that we might extend the game for another lynch just by doing it. There is a chance in uncertainty that we may extend the game and make a more informed decision, just like there is a chance that there is a coroner role. But making any sort of plan or policy out of chance is stupid, and I would never support it. | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:58 ilovejonn wrote: No I don't. Spell it out for me. decon is one of my lynch candidates that I've had along with Caller since the beginning, that's 2 targets, and I'm telling people to vote either 1 or them. So really, what does the bolded part mean to you? You say how we need to consolidate votes and point out how people are voting on random people who are barely if at all lynch contenders then in the same breath you also say how you are not changing your vote, even though most people are in agreement that Deconduo just sucks and isn't scum. | ||
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On June 29 2011 05:59 Jackal58 wrote: That's the frustrating part. He has admitted in the past to trolling games just for his own amusement. If the game itself does not entertain you why play? All you manage is to diminish the experience for everybody else. If this is true and a recurring behavior I am not looking forward to not killing him because he is probably town. Nothing is more annoying than that. When it comes to Chezinu/Caller their Metas are funny and insane and it suites them really well by making them hard to read. In his case if it's honestly just to fuck with us, that is kind of discouraging. | ||
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On June 29 2011 07:47 LSB wrote: And it would be naive to try to argue that there isn't one. lol, I just finished arguing about how you should never talk in absolutes, especially in a game where all we know for fact is the mafia KP and original number of mafia. It looks like someone is trying to cover up a scum slip of knowing things he shouldn't ^_^ | ||
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On June 29 2011 08:53 VisceraEyes wrote: How am I being balls-to-the-wall annoying when I'm only trying to get you guys to reconsider what appears to already be decided? I'm LITERALLY 2 votes away from death...I think I'm entitled to as much annyoningness as I want. Consider it my last meal. lol Seriously guys, I'm only asking for a TEMPORARY reprieve. Put me off til tomorrow and lynch someone who actually looks scummy. Amber hasn't done ANYTHING this game. Palmar made a pretty compelling case against Kurumi. Town, just because I have the most votes and am a heartbeat away from death does NOT make me the best lynch candidate. It only means that we've all decided to not try and find scum in this game and have decided that the name of the game is to just come to a consensus on who to kill. That's the name of MAFIA'S game, not TOWN'S game. WE should be looking for scum. And you're looking in the WRONG place lynching me, I promise you. Amber still hasn't posted, other than RoL makes him lol. How this isn't more scummy to more people is absolutely flooring to me. Amber looks really scummy from his posting, and I wouldn't mind switching over if you can convince other people. I explained my reasoning on you, and I briefly went over my reasoning on Amber, I also don't like how silent he has been about us killing you. I'd suggest you show us why we should kill amber instead though, that might convince other people. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Amber[LighT] | ||
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On June 29 2011 10:49 Amber[LighT] wrote: Cherry picking my posts doesn't make me scum. I just find it funny that conveniently after chaoser made that garbage list post he was replaced, essentially making it useless for the town to ask viscera what was meant. And Rol you should watch your shit. All of a sudden you were.'catching up' and someone throws my name into the ring and you hop on me out of convenience. You gotta do better than that if you want to help your scum buddy out. Guess its easy to throw your friends under the bus first Another reference for the town: when Rol and I are on the same mafia team he will stay very far away from me. Also when jackal plays normally he will call out someone for being scum by literally saying "xxx is scum." I was the first person to call you out? I just didn't push your lynch initially. | ||
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First let's get into why DT claiming is retarded and why fishball is better than that. This game has no flips, this means we can't confirm shit about his supposed DT claim, and by the time we actually realize something is amiss its too late and we have pissed away a minimum of two lynches believing him. I have explained it before and I am going to quote it right now for you all to read. On June 26 2011 08:21 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Do not play in trying to guess Ace's roles included int he game. I used that as a basis for an analysis in Toy Factory which resulted in me trusting Annul which contributed to the rape that occurred that game. I actually completely agree with how any sort of detective type role should be used this game. If you find a scum, push them using an analysis. Claiming DT will result in us killing you out of safety, a fake DT claim in a no flip scenario is simply way too deadly. In that sense any claim of DT will be met with swift and decisive death. We have no way of confirming anything said by a DT and it has the potential to royally fuck up the town. We need to stick to this no matter what. On a related note. Any type of detective role should stick to investigating less active individuals. I seriously doubt this will be an issue in this game due to the player base, but it is something worth stating. I am so disappointed with how XLII was basically thrown away by 1/5th if not more of the town lurking and it putting us in an impossible situation. It's another reason I am happy this game is small with known active players. Off the top of my head, if we somehow have few/no inactive players, I would recommend checking any player significantly influential in town decision, that means any vocal townie who is leading lynches. The important thing is that when you find a scum, do NOT role claim. Create analysis on that person, constantly push their guilt, but under no circumstances do you claim. From a mafia perspective killing you would then just draw people to your analysis, so its a double edged sword. You protect yourself and push a mafia by one simple act of pushing your suspects without claiming. As stated in this post, DT claiming is retarded, and from a lessor player I might consider making an exception based on lack of experience and confidence, but fishball obviously won't get that luxury. Claiming is so fucking INCREDIBLY bad. It straight up ruins his ability to analyze the lynch. Imagine if he just busted out an analysis on me. At that point he could observe who will defend me in a subtle way and try to divert the lynch, and he could EASILY do that for 30-40 hours before claiming and ensuring I was lynched if he felt it necessary. This would give invaluable information that he now conveniently can't get. This day has officially become a battle between fishball the "DT" and me, and we are going to get very little analytical information from this day of posts. Since we know fishball is not a dumbass, we know he clearly ignored what has been discussed and is known to be a much more valuable way to go about lynching a scum DT check. Now on why I tried to encourage a town policy of DT's NOT claiming. Quite simply we cannot confirm DT checks, and even if we could with a Coroner type role with fishball's plan, that would just serve to out one of the most powerful town aligned roles in the game to try to confirm a detective. This can bury the town in shit for days. In conclusion, claiming is painfully anti town and if he really was a DT he would realize that he couldn't be confirmed through a lynch of his suspect, and it would be more productive to pressure your check and draw inferences from it. You chose the shit path. Now let's get to your claim. You are an alignment detective, it is such an easily faked claim. You get townie or mafia, which means since you are scum you know exactly what everyone's alignment is. Nice with the BC check too, since he is an important player to try to get on your side and can easily flip a lynch. Understand that Fishball can literally never be wrong about his checks in this case. He calls your alignment and then has you killed as you fight his check. We never know if he told the truth or not, unless both fishball and a theoretical coroner role survive until the end of the game which isn't going to happen. As I have said countless times in thread, any plan that revolves around the unknown is stupid and bound to fail, even if it is role that is probable to exist, we can't know if it has/will die. To sum it up, an alignment detective is about as easy to fake as Veteran or Medic while being 30x more detrimental to town if gone unchecked, since his actions can literally change how entire days go in the game and we can't know if he is full of shit because there is never an actual flip. Now let's get fishy's actual case on me. Its a real hard one to dismiss, but I will seriously try my best. Fishball Wrote Night 1 was a bit trickier. My goal was to check the less obvious targets, those that are in the gray area, but you know that something doesn't add up. I had a few candidates: Palmar, ilovejonn, and RebirthOfLeGenD. At the end, I picked RoL based on a my observation of his posting, the overall voting pattern for Day 1, and the fact that he took off his vote from VisceraEyes and broke the promise that he would his change his vote back; A key factor that Day 0 resulted in a no-lynch. no u [spoiler] But seriously, this is bullshit. You are telling me that I was one of the people who was pushing VisceraEyes the hardest toward the end and then decided at the last second I didn't want to kill my team mate? This is a joke, and a bad, convoluted one at that. If I was really scum with Viscera I could simply have barely contributed to his case, or dismissed it entirely and voted to lynch LSB or Amber who both look like shit instead. But you are telling me that I aggressively attacked my own team mate, only to back off and not lynch him instead, which would make me look bad as fuck for forcing the town into a no lynch? Yeah, sorry. It would never happen, and sorry I broke my promise, it was honestly a fuck up from a team monobattles game, if you would like I can even link you to my game list where it happened. I don't mind! I am mSLeGenD.251 on SC2 NA. Have fun. The game went from about 11:30ish to 12:15. If any of you have played against me as mafia before, you know I play extremely meticulously and safe. I would have never fucked up like this as mafia by playing so recklessly and making myself so important for the Day 1 lynch. If I was mafia trying to save a scum buddy it was totally unnecessary and my actions for that day literally make zero sense in pushing Viscera so hard just to back off at the little while. I admit it was dumb of me to even try to change the lynch though, that was my only mistake, but that was seriously just because I thought Amber was a lot more scummy. Oh and lastly, I like your use of colors in your post, I remember all the games where BC did that and just wrote massive walls of text with pretty colors, its a nice little trick to get people to side with you, a cheap trick. I know BC caught onto it too, I am sure he wasn't as blinded as you hoped by your "Hey BC is town!" check. It's funny though, I F5ed the thread just in time last night, because I was just about to wrote up an analysis of how scummy LSB was, but clearly that is irrelevant now, since you just turned Day 2 into me fighting a bullshit DT claim. On that note, let's get rid of this lying scum. I want everyone to read both of what we have posted and realize what makes more sense. Look at Fishball. He claims he is an alignment DT who checked me and BC and got scum on me, he comes up with a half assed plan using a theoretical role that may or may not be alive or even in the game. Then uses a half baked analysis on me to push his DT check. Now look at how scummy every aspect of his plan is. An alignment DT is the most easily faked and most detrimental role to town as scum, that effect is amplified in this set up. The way he went about claiming was just stupid and doesn't provide any actual information since know everyone knows exactly what evidence fishball is supposedly working with, instead of thinking he just analyzed my behavior and applied pressure. So boys, lets be objective, reasonable, and smart and kill this lying scum. ##vote Fishball | ||
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On June 30 2011 23:20 Fishball wrote: It doesn't matter what he claims, as in my eyes, whatever he claims would be a lie. It was rather fortunate for him that he actually said a Medic saved him last night. If he claims that he is a Veteran, than obviously one of us is lying (not like he isn't already). If I'm lying, there there will be no argument. But a Mafia Veteran? Good luck with that. Now, he claims that a Medic saved him. No, I don't need the Medic to come fourth to prove the claim if a Medic did save him, but there are a few questions everyone might want to ask themselves first. - RoL has not exactly shown the strongest Town-aligned play in this game, in fact, alot of his stuff falls into the grey area. The "oops, I missed my vote" move he pulled at the end raised eyebrows. Why would a Medic, among all players, would choose to protect him? - Caller has claimed Vigilante and shot GMarshal at the start (I'm still pondering this). deconduo has also claimed Vigilante. So if what RoL says is true, there has to a third Vigilante or similar type of role out there that has Night KP. What is the likelihood of this? - You combine the two variables up top; What is the likelihood that RoL's claim is true? - Furthermore, do I seem to be making up all this fuss just to paint RoL red? That's all I have to say. You know what, lets get serious. I think I have actually figured out exactly what happened and it makes perfect sense. I know I was floating somewhat in the gray area since I hadn't actually done a lot of legwork on day 1, and hell I don't even know what I was more surprised about, getting hit or getting protected. But I think I figured it out. Since you are scum and you are using my voting no lynch accident as the thing that made me look scummy, and by association made VisceraEyes look scummy, meaning you basically lined up a vig/lynch for the next cycle as well as getting me offed. But how could I explain that? Simple, VisceraEyes is the medic, who viewed me not killing him as being protown, and thus decided to protect me for not hammering him D1. He seemed really happy and eager to prove his townieness after being spared, and this is what I could come up with, to me its the only thing that makes sense to explain me surviving. Considering someone died last night though, I am unsure of where the extra KP came from, I first guess would be that caller lied and is a compulsive/multi hit role and just tried to kill me, perhaps even a third party. He said something about suspecting me earlier in the night. At the same time this would mean both me and scamp took a hit last night, which is odd. I would view the scamp hit as more likely a mafia hit trying to blue snipe. On the flip side I think this means I must have been hit by a third party. I think if I was caller and third party a good way of trying to play this game would be to try and kill the mafia off knowing that even if you hit a townie you are still helping your win conditions. This would also explain to me how caller is claiming to have multiple powers that we can't fully understand. This would also explain why he didn't give a fuck and just day 1'd Gmarshal, a generally very good town player who establishes himself really well in games as town which could be problematic later on if he called out caller on his trolly bullshit. | ||
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On July 01 2011 00:13 Amber[LighT] wrote: Actually we can confirm his checks. We can't confirm you though. #vote: RebirthofLegend Cool dude, how do you propose that we confirm his checks? You can't, go back to lurking scum. I don't care if I need allies right now, I am not going to pretend you and LSB still aren't on my radar for playing like shit. | ||
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On July 01 2011 00:13 Palmar wrote: There is a really good reason in this particular case for lynching RoL first. We can gamble on getting a ton of extra informaton, but only if you have faith in your Emperor. Listen my Icelandic twin, doing this is stupid. Read what I wrote above, this is a gamble that won't pan out which is why we so heavily discouraged DT claims and even provided the exact way a DT should go about his successful role checks. | ||
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On July 01 2011 00:20 Palmar wrote: So if it was me who claimed, you'd make an exception and just admit you're mafia, but since it's fishball you're going to fight? No, I mean make an exception to generally shitty DT play and ignoring obvious shit. Newer players tend to lack confidence and make there argument about the DT check. The better way is to abuse a DT check to milk information from the town. I am saying it was uncharacteristically bad play, which only a newb might get exemption from, I just worded it a bit funny. Please don't get caught up on semantics. | ||
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BACK UNDER YER BRIDGE. | ||
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On July 01 2011 00:23 Fishball wrote: I don't have time to respond in detail to your other post yet, but ROFL at this. You made me laugh out loud at work, and my co-workers were looking at me funny ;/ The next 36 hours and 34 minutes are going to consist of you slowly becoming my bitch. | ||
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The part that makes this even worse is that since all active medics will be protecting fishball, all the other townies who mafia might of avoided in fear of hitting a medic are now free kills. So you get double fucked. This means you and BC are going to die asap if you are town, and by the time you figure out fishball you are going to be fucked. I can almost guarantee you if you kill me, the next mafia hit will be a high profile townie, since all medics are going to be in an obvious location. | ||
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On July 01 2011 00:48 Caller wrote: RoL, stop dodging and claim. You're trying to pull a busdrove onto a dead guy as an insane DT. So let's take your hypothetical here. That I'm actually a 3rd party. Firstly this means through your inference that you "know" I'm not mafia. That's a scumslip. But let's say its not strong enough. If I were 3rd party, would I claim that I'm a killing role? Would I also say I have one bullet, and then proceed to shoot somebody else? Let's think about it: In a game of this size, reasonably there would be 1 or 2 Vigilantes at the most. Deconduo was a vigilante. I can confirm this because I was also a vigilante and he said things that only a vigilante in this game would know. Namely, we both only have one bullet, and some other things. So there are no more vigilantes in this game. I explained how your behavior could be explained by third party actions. What kind of fucking vigilante can hit on N0 and even more to the point, what type of Vigilante hits for the fuck of it? The best part about your little Deconduo claim is that it is impossible for him to confirm this since he has been mod killed. In the same breath you say that only you and Deconduo were vigilantes, then explain why the fuck I got hit? Yeah, thought so. GTFO. I shot GMarshal. There was only one other hit Night 0. It must have been the mafia hit, because I would've gotten my shot refunded otherwise (hint: I didn't.) By deduction, since a 3rd party role wants to kill people, the fact that nobody else died means that either I am the 3rd party or there is no 3rd party. You claimed that you were shot last night, and Scamp also died. Therefore, you say there were two hits. I did not shoot, because I only had one bullet that was used Night 0. If I was 3rd party, why would I endanger myself by shooting? I'd prove myself to either be 3rd party or a liar, both of which are lynchworthy. As I've already shown, either I am the 3rd party or there is no 3rd party as seen in night 0. There is no reason for me, if I were 3rd party, to trap myself in this situation, especially by doing what I did. If town wouldn't kill a 3rd party in that situation, mafia would. Basically, unless you're saying I'm violating the "play-to-win" rule, and saying I deserve to be modkilled, you're full of shit and also a liar. You didn't take a hit last night, and this was clearly planned ahead of time (as you'll see below). I'm now utterly convinced that Fishball is legit. We don't know the nature of your potential third party powers or objective. I never said you were a straight serial killer or anything. And as for violating your win conditions by doing something insane in a closed set up game. Lets look back to that game you claimed insane Japanese-Israeli busdriver and managed to not fucking die even after I tried firing two nukes at you. So forgive me if I don't think you will die because of one simple lie, which can easily be explained by some sort of greater good excuse to be determined at a later time. When I claimed, this was your reaction: Why the sudden about face? Was it because this was a plan that you created to get town to waste a lynch on me? Good try, but now you're in the shithole. Also, I remember you pulling a similar stunt back a long, long time ago. This game, in fact: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83951¤tpage=30#594 . Turned out you were mafia that game. ##Vote: RebirthofLegend There was never an about face, don't make shit up. As I said before, as a third party your best method to win in this set up would be to try to kill the mafia, as I said LSB is town. Me saying you look shitty now doesn't mean I can't agree with you that LSB looks shitty. Your logic is completely wrong and you know it. That's roughly equivalent to saying "If someone flips town, then everything they said was right." Inversely speaking, If I think you are scum, then you must be wrong/lying in your accusation. That is not the case, since both you, me, and fishball say LSB looks like shit. As far as getting the town to waste a lynch on you goes, I am perfectly fine with you targeting mafia. I also have no clue what stunt you are referring to and can't even remember that game, so you might have to be more specific. | ||
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On July 01 2011 01:06 Amber[LighT] wrote: You fool no one should be protecting Fishball. He, like Decon and Caller yesterday, made themselves liabilities. If you claim, medics should not feel compelled to protect someone because they "said they were a DT/Vigi." If Fishball thinks he's going to get all of this magic protection tonight he's clearly not playing as well as he used to. He knew the risks, and he acknowledged the fact that he shouldn't have claimed. You haven't given us shit all game so far. Yeah, clearly you didn't read Fishball's post. On top of which you seem to not understand that while that may be good advice to not protect an infidel like fishball, don't be surprised if a medic doesn't listen to you. Every post is "im catching up" or "I agree." You haven't once presented an original idea which leads me to believe you're just trying to bullshit your way through the game, hoping no one catches you. You were suspicious day 1, now you're even more suspicious. You're clinging onto these little connections that are making you look even more scummy. Instead of just claiming, or doing anything helpful, you're belittling Caller. Good idea. First off, you are one to talk about not presenting an original idea. While I may have just agreed with the Chaoser/Viscera lynch, I gave my own reasoning. At the same time I was the first person to expand in detail on why this whole DT claim shit sucks. | ||
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On July 01 2011 01:14 Amber[LighT] wrote: You couldn't minimize SC2 to vote for VisceraEyes. You were the deciding vote. Seriously though... Desert Strike? You couldn't alt+tab for 2 seconds? Since you obviously read the thread, you must have forgotten that I did present a voting idea that was promptly ignored by everyone, and trolled on by about 3 people, Caller being one of them. Everything that happened during Day 1 would have been prevented if people just listened to me, or at least acknowledged my post. I don't recall you replying to it. Wrong day, it was monobattles, as I have said 5 times. You are looking at the wrong day. On top of which, it was an intense game. We were Tank/Phoenix/Marauder vs Marine/ling/ling and we won. Not the easiest thing to do by any means. On top of that, I just forgot I had to do that. Believe it or not, I forgot. More to the point, I am not stupid enough to push a team mate aggressively then "accidentally" forget to make sure he dies. | ||
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On July 01 2011 01:24 Kurumi wrote: Are You really trying to divert the lynch telling us that Third Party role exists and it is Caller? Lol. No, I am saying fishball is full of shit and that's why you shouldn't kill me. Look how fast I am getting stacked, this is clearly bullshit. | ||
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As I said earlier, I am purely speculating on you caller. The second hit confuses the shit out of me, and I can't explain it other then by what I wrote or another vig. If you don't believe there is a medic, then there is no problem in waiting for him to hopefully role claim, if I am lying, it won't happen. We fundamentally disagree on your first response though. A. What are you talking about? B. I still think it was dumb and C. you are wrong. | ||
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On July 01 2011 01:56 Caller wrote: you're the one that's full of shit. I just proved it. You didn't prove shit just because you run around yelling. | ||
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Are you fucking kidding? If you are gungho about getting me killed why would you dismiss evidence to the contrary? Is this a fucking joke? You are saying I am a lying mafia, I am saying I am not. | ||
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On July 01 2011 02:32 Ace wrote: Day 2 With 14 alive, it is 8 to lynch. RebirthofLegend(7) - Fishball, sandroba, Palmar, Kurumi, Chezinu, LSB, Caller Not voting - Amber[Light], ilovejohn, citi.zen, VisceraEyes, BloodyC0bbler, Jackal58, RiberthofLegend It is now Day 2 and it will end on Friday at 12AM ET/13:00 KST. I voted for fishball. | ||
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On July 01 2011 02:36 Caller wrote: and i'm saying there's no need to do so because I have already proven that you are lying and are simply trying to flush out medics so that your buddies will be able to hit them tomorrow. It's already proven that you're mafia. Anyone that doesn't follow my logic needs to get their head checked. Your logic sucks, and you are wrong. How the fuck does me saying the medic who protected me needs to call it out translate to me trying to flush out medics? | ||
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Your logic sucked too. | ||
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I hope you clowns realize how fucked you are tomorrow with an alignment DT running the show rofl. | ||
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On July 01 2011 02:41 Palmar wrote: Fuck logic, hanging you is the Emperor's command. I feel betrayed by blood. | ||
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I hate you. | ||
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On July 01 2011 02:42 Caller wrote: hurry up and claim then, let's hear your claim. maybe we'll get off you. I was the coroner-type role you jackass. | ||
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Icelands not even a real country. | ||
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Edit: Sorry, seriously done posting. | ||
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On July 09 2011 12:36 Ace wrote: Well you made a solid case but Palmar just didn't read it objectively. He messed up a few times but he wasn't that bad. Honestly the argument between you and VisceraEyes day 2 I think was REALLY bad. RebirthofLegend slipped up a lot of times in the midst of it and neither of you caught it. It was so bad that he made a post about Vigilantes and should have been brought up on it because it was honestly beyond stupid and Scummy when he said it. Luckily for the Town LSB and Fishball caught on to it because they were actually READING the thread and not tunneling everyone. I knew I played a bit sloppy n0, but which posts were you referring to specifically? | ||
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On July 09 2011 13:56 Palmar wrote: I argued with VE, but I think I was about the one person who had a solid town read on him. It was much more him tunneling me. What was so bad about that thing? It just replaced an equally stupid Fishball v Deconduo argument. I think most everyone had RoL on their shortlist for scum, which was why it was so easy to turn around the lynch dt first policy when fishball claimed. I actually wanted to comment on my lynch. I seriously did want to hammer VisceraEyes, I just forgot because I was in a game. I also made a slip up by even considering changing my vote, it put myself unnecessarily in the spot light, but if we could have flipped the lynch I would of rather had Amber die. It was stupid and not well thought out, and I think that was the only thing I clearly remembering going "Fuck, why did I do that" then not hammering VisceraEyes like I said I would was also really bad. Regarding my lynch, radfield was actually inactive for a couple of days proceeding that, we had absolutely no communication. On N1 I sent in the orders to protect Sandroba and cover radfield. The day flipped and I found out I got hit, and I assumed my orders stood they way I sent them in and even rechecked my PM's beforehand to make sure I didn't have myself protected. I found out around an hour before I got lynched that Radfield had sent in the order to protect me. Meaning I had already claimed a medic saved me, something I NEVER would have done had I known it was the scum doctor who saved me. I legitimately thought it was a townie who saved me. I think my biggest mistake that day was attacking Caller. I should of focused my case on why everything fishball was doing was scummy, since we had decided days ago that the way he was playing was dumb, and it really was imo. I mean he couldn't know when I died people would start actually flipping, so you guys would just be following an alignment detective around by the nose, which is just stupid. When I started arguing with caller and accusing him of an SK which I actually thought was possible because a n0 hit is uncharacteristic of a vig, and on Gmarshal is a bit odd, it made me look more desperate and less sensible. On that note, I also started defending myself WAY too late. I should of started arguing and focusing solely on fishball's scummy-ness immediately after he claimed. Instead I played BW for around 6 hours or something and came back and already had half the required votes on me without my rebuttal in place. For some reason I was like "Pff, still 40 hours to convince people." not thinking he would reach a majority lynch so quickly. So yeah, sorry Citizen. My fuck up in thinking you were not protecting me and using that in my defense nearly cost you the late game. Good job, and an excellent fake claim that worked wonders. Another point I hadn't seen put out is that both me and JeeJee had basically the same role, and why would scum have two of the same role? I believe people knew generally what I did from my role name and that I claimed coroner at the end. | ||
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On July 09 2011 19:21 Scamp wrote: I'm really confused. What the hell happened to my body and what did you maniacs do with it? Also wondering why I was hit night 1. Not that I minded since I was VT but still curious about why. You are a player I know can be good, but weren't active enough to garner a medic protect. I was really scared this game of hitting medic protection since our kills were so sparse to begin with. To survive early on you seriously need to be more active. Most players who have been around know you have the capability to be good when left alone, and you hadn't done anything majorly suspicious. So I decided to get rid of you. In future games, if I were you I would try to put on an active day 1. I know it sucks trying to be productive and look important on Day 1 with barely anything to work with, but it scares the mafia away from killing you. If they think you are good, and they think they can get away with shooting you they will do it. You need to put a little doubt in them. | ||
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On July 09 2011 22:45 Ace wrote: Thanks, I prefer hosting smaller set ups. After playing and reading many big games I just realize there isn't much you can do once Townies start getting crazy. I feel the big games get chaotic and spammy as fuck way more. Even when you are talking 30 players vs 20, I feel like the difference is huge. With 30 players, trying to actually post analyze amidst all the shit going on is just so mind numbing and annoying. I feel the smaller games require more skill from both ends, mafia can't get lost in spam and they are more scrutinized, and the town can actually show stronger play that actually matters because its not spammed away, and doing actual analysis is much easier and more concise due to the lack of spam and lower player count. After BC's game I don't think I will play that many larger games anymore. They are too much work, and less fun. | ||
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On July 10 2011 00:19 deconduo wrote: That was the point, if there was another vig in the game they would know my claim is legit. Still, it was a good game and I don't mind too much. Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players. Only you may post on your account. It falls under this more so. It's kind of bullshit that you can basically auto confirm each other by using role PM's, since no one except those with the same role have any way to detect it, which is unfair and is using elements outside the game to win, which is just gay and not fun. So while you are not posting the exact PM from the host, you are posting fragments, and that would be arguing petty semantics. | ||
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To my amusement, both of them died on Night 0. I assumed the worst and that all 4 Mafia remained. Night 1, I questioned why no one has claimed being role blocked yet. I swear this role would have existed in Ace's game, base on what I know of Ace and what he had commented in other threads, (just like how much he dislikes Bus Drivers in his games). It would all make sense if the Role Blocker had died Night 0. Actually, this was part of our plan. We were going to roleblock+kill people for 2 nights so that we hid the roleblock from being shown, then when we actually roleblocked someone they would look suspicious claiming RB on D3 or something since no one had claimed previously. On top of that we were also a bit worried of roles that activate upon being killed, so we figured two birds, one stone. Namely Zombies/Virgins/NRA member, etc. The problem with that was that our roleblocker died N0 -_- | ||
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I admit the reason we also pushed it as the smart play was because while theoretically the town should lynch the DT first in that scenario, we knew SAYING it should happen and actually making it happen would be hard, since everyone wants to trust blue roles and not just haphazardly throw them away. On the flip side of that, if one of us decided to claim DT later on we could force the town to lean to not killing us, since I knew they wouldn't want to anyway. Policy lynching DT's is always a tough sell, and I figured we should establish the need and reasoning behind how DT's should play earlier on. It would allow us to kill you if we notice what you are doing, while hopefully keeping the town off our asses. Even though there are ways we can use a DT policy lynch to our advantage as mafia, to deny the danger of a DT claim to the longevity of the town would be foolish. Think about if we fake claimed with the same case as you, it wouldn't be hard to sell it up the river for the next few nights, especially if we KNEW we killed one DT already. | ||
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On July 10 2011 09:30 Fishball wrote: I had thought of that plan, because if I were Mafia, I would have likely done the same. I was actually more concerned of getting Role Blocked than dying on Night 2. We can all agree that Caller is crazy ;/ Without a doubt I can agree. I remember when I was arguing with him before I died I said something like "You are full of shit, and you have more than 1 kill" and he said something about how if that were true he would be lying and would get lynched, and is therefore playing against his win condition. I said something in reference to his Insane Israeli bus driver claim, and how I wouldn't put it past him. Then 5 minutes after I die he goes "Oh btw I have 2 hits" I face palmed so hard that I woke up two hours later on the floor with a palm print scar on my forehead. | ||
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I still think you played it out wrong, even if it worked for a bit. And by a bit, I mean until you, BC, and caller proceeded to die and confuse the town which all half stemmed from your DT claim. | ||
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