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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
The purpose of this thread is to lay down some general guidelines to hosting mafia games. After talking with a variety of hosts, I have assembled a list of "rules" that all hosts should be abiding by in their games.
As a disclaimer, I am not trying to single out any particular person as a bad host or whatever. We are all human and mistakes are bound to happen; even flamewheel, Incognito, and GMarshal can attest to their fare share of causing shitstorms because they messed something up.
The list is not all inclusive, nor does it address specific situations.
1) Keep your OP updated.
This is rule number 1 because hosts very frequently neglect this. It is much easier to see the current status of the game and how far along a game is when you only have to look at the first page and see who and what roles are dead. Otherwise one has to check up on all the day/night posts, which can be tedious.
And speaking of which, make sure to link to all the day/night posts as well. Also make sure you have the players' filters somewhere in your OP.
Personally, I like ghost_403's style of OP (see here.) The very first post has the filters and player list (as well as coach information) and then has the flips and important posts in the spoilers. I like this because it's the first post and near the top; I don't have to scroll down and look through the first three posts to find this information. While you don't not have to copy this exactly, it should give a good idea on how to format your OP.
And again, make sure you keep it updated as the game progresses.
2) Do not make unnecessary posts.
As the host, your job in the thread is to answer player questions and make the respective day/night posts (and whichever ones may be required by your game). Occasionally posting is okay, but it is obnoxious when a host is contributing to spam because they are talking unnecessarily.
3) Do not interfere with the game.
Hosts exist to move the game along and not to help players find out the mafia. Things that a host should not be doing include: choosing night actions for afk players, helping players analyze others, and helping mafia pick their targets.
4) Players will try to fish information out of you. Do not help them.
Let's not mince words...some people are jerks, and they will do whatever they can to get an edge so that they can win. You, as the host, will have a hard time giving an unbiased opinion because you know the role list and most everything occurring in the game. This leads to number 4...
5) Avoid discussion with players in the game.
See number 3. Unless a player is asking you a game related question, there is no need to be sharing a cup of coffee while discussing the latest happenings in the mafia game.
6) Send the game setup to Foolishness for balance.
Nothing would suck worse to play in a game only to find out afterwards that your chance of winning was so low you might as well not have played. Someone experienced needs to verify your setup to make sure there are no shenanigans. Make sure to PM me your setup when your game goes up (if not, earlier).
Also keep in mind it's important to build a game that's fun for the players, not just fun for you. Sure it'd be hilarious if there weren't any mafia in the game and you randomly killed people at night, but the players would not be happy when they found out.
7) Do not volunteer information not explicitly asked for.
This rule applies more to crazy game setups (such as pick your power) than to normal games, where it is near impossible to account for every crazy scenario that may happen in a game. The player is responsible for asking the right question, not the host for providing the outcome the player wanted/expected.
8) Do not hand out the role list.
Multiple hosts have agreed with me on this point; role lists should not be distributed to anybody. This includes, but is not limited to: players outside the game, coaches, and dead players. Most everyone is guilty of this (which is okay) but it is for the best if the role lists are not handed out until the game is over. In case of a mishap, it's okay to give it to someone like GMarshal or Foolishness to help resolve an issue.
9) Make sure you check the banlist thread before starting the game.
Should be self explanatory
10) Have a cohost for your game. Make sure your cohost actually does some work (however little).
This is already stated in the Active Games thread, but I wanted to put it in here for emphasis.
11) Double check, triple check, and get your cohost to check the vote count.
A good way to mess up a game is to accidentally kill the wrong person because the vote count was messed up. As there is never an easy solution to this that all parties are satisfied with, it is best to avoid this situation altogether.
12) PM Foolishness when your game ends (or make a post in the Active Games thread).
It helps me to know these things right away to make sure new games are up at the appropriate time.
13) Have fun!
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United States22154 Posts
I like it, I wish this thread had been around earlier though ^_^
Anyway, great job foolishness, thanks for writing this up.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Wait I never messed anything up while I was hosting! I only messed things up when somebody else was hosting.
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A few things:
On June 14 2011 08:33 Foolishness wrote:
7) Do not hand out the role list, no exceptions.
Multiple hosts have agreed with me on this point; role lists should not be distributed to anybody. This includes, but is not limited to: players outside the game, coaches, and dead players. Most everyone is guilty of this (which is okay) but it is for the best if the role lists are not handed out until the game is over.
I think this is a little too strict. There have been situations where hosts handing me the role list so I can help them moderate their game helped them considerably. I demand a Qatol exception!
Also, this should probably include something about having hosts make sure to create a setup which will be fun to play in, not just fun for the host to watch. For example, while it is fun to joke about making a game with no mafia members where the host uses a RNG to figure out who dies each night, it is not a good idea to make such a game because the players would not have fun. After the game, they would feel cheated and many would probably not join any game you hosted ever again.
And make sure people know they need to link to the day/night posts in the OP. In particular, the wrapup posts which give all of the roles and actions are especially important and too often neglected. They need to be made, and they need to be linked.
On June 14 2011 08:50 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
PHIL WHO ASKED YOU?
I DID! (Mostly because I didn't want to make this thread myself and we really needed it.)
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I hand out my Role Lists to Flamewheeel since A.) I usually end up going out on weekends and might miss the Night Post and B.) I'm not too interested in writing storyline death posts and he'll do a better job anyway.
I agree with mostly everything else except #1. Hosts should post during the game, but just have to know when to stop and let the game go on.
#10 is what annoys me the most when reading other people's games. Just put a spoiler in the OP with the dead players and when they died so that people that just want to see it don't have to search every Day/Night post. This way people that want to read the entire game don't get screwed and people that want to know who died know where to look. Easy for both parties.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Also yeah Foolishness you forgot the flamewheel/Qatol clause in there hmm.
Hmm and what Ace says is true. I always tried to keep mine updated like this.
On July 29 2010 13:12 flamewheel wrote:Player Roster1. Chezinu2. Bill Murray ( Ninja, Night 4) 3. Pandain ( Ninja, Day 2 Lynch) 4. DarthThienAn ( Tracker, Night 2) 5. Divinek ( Townie, Night 2) 6. youngminii7. VayeshMoru ( Ninja, Night 4) 8. rastaban9. Pyrrhuloxia10. XeliN11. love1another ( Townie, Day 1 Lynch) 12. Amber[LighT] ( Medic, Night 4) 13. Chaoser ( Nosy Neighbor, Night 1) 14. Artanis[Xp]15. BrownBear16. zeks ( Townie, Night 2) 17. KF9118. bumatlarge ( Mafia Goon, Day 3 Lynch) 19. Foolishness20. iNfuNdiBuLuM21. Iaaan ( Townie, Day 1 Modkill) 22. LSB ( Townie, Night 1) 23. ~OpZ~24. Misder ( Mafia Goon, Day 4 Double Lynch) 25. tree.hugger ( Mafia Framer, Night 2) 26. Jayme Ace (Day 3 Replacement, Nosy Neighbor, Night 3) 27. Roffles ( Townie, Night 2) 28. Hesmyrr29. SouthRawrea ( Townie, Day 4 Double Lynch) 30. larjarse ( Townie, Day 4 Modkill) 12 of 30 players remaining ? of ? Detectives remaining ? of ? Trackers remaining ? of ? Watchers remaining ? of ? Medics remaining ? of ? Vigilante remaining ? of ? Mad Hatters remaining ? of ? Bus Drivers remaining ? of ? Veterans remaining ? of ? Nosy Neighbors remaining 9 of 24 Town-aligned players remaining 3 of 6 Mafia remaining (Cumulative Mafia Count) 1 of 1 Godfathers remaining ? of ? Roleblockers remaining ? of ? Framers remaining Mafia KP = # of Mafia alive / 2 rounded up Current Mafia KP: 21 Double Lynch remaining
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I will try to hold to these guidelines, but I am a forgetful person, so remind me!
Also what game was that FW? It's on the tip of my tongue.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Okay I changed some of the wording to accommodate the things said in the thread (particularly rules 1, 5, 10). Let me know if anything should be reworded, or any other rules to add.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Hrm also having a cohost is not entirely necessary... It's more fun with one though.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On June 14 2011 14:39 flamewheel wrote:
Hrm also having a cohost is not entirely necessary... It's more fun with one though.
I think it should be, especially if one host has to go away for an extended period of time (due to whatever issues). It's also a way to have multiple people hosting at once, as without it there would be a huge list of games to be played since everyone would want to host.
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On June 14 2011 11:38 bumatlarge wrote:
I will try to hold to these guidelines, but I am a forgetful person, so remind me!
Also what game was that FW? It's on the tip of my tongue.
That´s the infamous game that Ver analysed in his town guide, Mafia XXX iirc.
Also imho sticky this or link it into a sticky.
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12) Don't leave your game halfway through
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On June 14 2011 23:27 Caller wrote:
12) Don't leave your game halfway through
~_~
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I have another one for you:
PM Qatol and Foolishness when your game ends to let them know it is over. They may or may not be following your game very closely, but they need to know when the games end to keep this forum running smoothly.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On June 14 2011 08:41 flamewheel wrote:
Wait I never messed anything up while I was hosting! I only messed things up when somebody else was hosting.
You cursed me Phil.
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On June 14 2011 08:33 Foolishness wrote:
7) Do not hand out the role list, no exceptions.
Multiple hosts have agreed with me on this point; role lists should not be distributed to anybody. This includes, but is not limited to: players outside the game, coaches, and dead players. Most everyone is guilty of this (which is okay) but it is for the best if the role lists are not handed out until the game is over.
I feel like people can learn if they are allowed to get confirmation from a host if they are trying to figure stuff out on their own while the game is going on (i.e. hosts responding to if X is mafia or whatnot). Its just not the same if you wait til after the game, as you forget a lot of the stuff or the reasoning that got you there.
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We can try to figure out specifics on exceptions. I do understand that it can be good for a learning purpose, but I feel like we should have some way to limit the role list distribution and some way to make sure people are actually using it for said purpose. Maybe we could allow 1-2 people a game the role list for learning purposes, provided they do a write up on each cycle and what their observations were. If you fail to provide the analysis you are bumped from being allowed to have a role list. The same could go for asking the host questions about alignment/roles.
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I don´t think we should make rules for exceptions.
If you say giving the role list to up to 2 people is ok, hosts will likely give them to the first 2 half decent requests, instead of only giving them out in exceptions.
In the end that´s what exceptions are about, not having exact rulings for the case.
Making an exception is up to the host, since he has to assess the risk of someone ruining the game. If you make rules for that, you take the responsibility away from the host if the game does get ruined.
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Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists?
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United States2186 Posts
On June 21 2011 03:57 LSB wrote:
Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists?
There have been cheating incidents in the past. I don't know the full details but handing out the role list is only going to cause problems.
In my recent game somebody tried to cheat in it, though I don't know who and didn't really care enough to lead a witch hunt. Some random guy who didn't have mafia forum access (probably a friend, as IP revealed nothing) asked me for the role list even though he had no way of knowing the game was even happening and never replied when I questioned him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 21 2011 07:14 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 03:57 LSB wrote:
Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists? There have been cheating incidents in the past. I don't know the full details but handing out the role list is only going to cause problems. In my recent game somebody tried to cheat in it, though I don't know who and didn't really care enough to lead a witch hunt. Some random guy who didn't have mafia forum access (probably a friend, as IP revealed nothing) asked me for the role list even though he had no way of knowing the game was even happening and never replied when I questioned him.
That's the lamest thing ever 
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On June 21 2011 08:56 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 07:14 Ver wrote:On June 21 2011 03:57 LSB wrote:
Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists? There have been cheating incidents in the past. I don't know the full details but handing out the role list is only going to cause problems. In my recent game somebody tried to cheat in it, though I don't know who and didn't really care enough to lead a witch hunt. Some random guy who didn't have mafia forum access (probably a friend, as IP revealed nothing) asked me for the role list even though he had no way of knowing the game was even happening and never replied when I questioned him. That's the lamest thing ever
Indeed. The PM was so obviously from a friend who hadn't seen the game too. They didn't even spell the name of the game correctly.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On June 21 2011 07:14 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 03:57 LSB wrote:
Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists? There have been cheating incidents in the past. I don't know the full details but handing out the role list is only going to cause problems. In my recent game somebody tried to cheat in it, though I don't know who and didn't really care enough to lead a witch hunt. Some random guy who didn't have mafia forum access (probably a friend, as IP revealed nothing) asked me for the role list even though he had no way of knowing the game was even happening and never replied when I questioned him.
Wow that's kinda hilarious yet really disappointing at the same time =/
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United States22154 Posts
On June 21 2011 12:49 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 07:14 Ver wrote:On June 21 2011 03:57 LSB wrote:
Has there ever been a problem with handing out the role lists? There have been cheating incidents in the past. I don't know the full details but handing out the role list is only going to cause problems. In my recent game somebody tried to cheat in it, though I don't know who and didn't really care enough to lead a witch hunt. Some random guy who didn't have mafia forum access (probably a friend, as IP revealed nothing) asked me for the role list even though he had no way of knowing the game was even happening and never replied when I questioned him. Wow that's kinda hilarious yet really disappointing at the same time =/
I only find it sad, but that's just me.
I just don't see the point of cheating at Mafia of all things, we play because its fun, what fun is it if you have a role list? To "prove" you are awesome? How would you ever get better if you cheated?
*shakes head sadly*
Anyway, I understand the reasoning behind that rule a little better now.
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I thought of another one!
If you plan on following the ban list, check your player list carefully for banned players before starting your game.
Most people do it, but there have been mistakes in the past and it is usually is the newer hosts.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
And don't talk about game-related stuff when you're drunk.
Even if you're dead.
Just don't talk about it.
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On June 25 2011 14:55 Qatol wrote:
I thought of another one!
If you plan on following the ban list, check your player list carefully for banned players before starting your game.
Most people do it, but there have been mistakes in the past and it is usually is the newer hosts.
*raises hand*
I think you must message me one very game I host telling me to ban people.
also flamewheel, lowblowbro :O!
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On June 25 2011 15:20 flamewheel wrote:
And don't talk about game-related stuff when you're drunk.
Even if you're dead.
Just don't talk about it.
Don't try to update the thread or deal with game issues when you're drunk too. It usually doesn't end well.
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On June 25 2011 16:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 14:55 Qatol wrote:
I thought of another one!
If you plan on following the ban list, check your player list carefully for banned players before starting your game.
Most people do it, but there have been mistakes in the past and it is usually is the newer hosts. *raises hand* I think you must message me one very game I host telling me to ban people. also flamewheel, lowblowbro :O!
Well I can't help that you always seem to need it (though that isn't always your fault)!
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Bumping this for general knowledge and updates....assuming that works so I can edit it again....
dangit. GM, can you do something so I can edit the OP of this post?
Everyone just ignore this until I get it updated and freshly looking 
Edit: just going to put the new version here and update the OP later when I'm allowed to:
The purpose of this thread is to lay down some general guidelines to hosting mafia games. After talking with a variety of hosts, I have assembled a list of "rules" that all hosts should be abiding by in their games.
As a disclaimer, I am not trying to single out any particular person as a bad host or whatever. We are all human and mistakes are bound to happen; even flamewheel, Incognito, and GMarshal can attest to their fare share of causing shitstorms because they messed something up.
The list is not all inclusive, nor does it address specific situations.
1) Keep your OP updated.
This is rule number 1 because hosts very frequently neglect this. It is much easier to see the current status of the game and how far along a game is when you only have to look at the first page and see who and what roles are dead. Otherwise one has to check up on all the day/night posts, which can be tedious.
And speaking of which, make sure to link to all the day/night posts as well. Also make sure you have the players' filters somewhere in your OP.
Personally, I like ghost_403's style of OP (see here.) The very first post has the filters and player list (as well as coach information) and then has the flips and important posts in the spoilers. I like this because it's the first post and near the top; I don't have to scroll down and look through the first three posts to find this information. While you don't not have to copy this exactly, it should give a good idea on how to format your OP.
And again, make sure you keep it updated as the game progresses.
2) Do not make unnecessary posts.
As the host, your job in the thread is to answer player questions and make the respective day/night posts (and whichever ones may be required by your game). Occasionally posting is okay, but it is obnoxious when a host is contributing to spam because they are talking unnecessarily.
3) Do not interfere with the game.
Hosts exist to move the game along and not to help players find out the mafia. Things that a host should not be doing include: choosing night actions for afk players, helping players analyze others, and helping mafia pick their targets.
4) Players will try to fish information out of you. Do not help them.
Let's not mince words...some people are jerks, and they will do whatever they can to get an edge so that they can win. You, as the host, will have a hard time giving an unbiased opinion because you know the role list and most everything occurring in the game. This leads to number 4...
5) Avoid discussion with players in the game.
See number 3. Unless a player is asking you a game related question, there is no need to be sharing a cup of coffee while discussing the latest happenings in the mafia game.
6) Send the game setup to Foolishness for balance.
Nothing would suck worse to play in a game only to find out afterwards that your chance of winning was so low you might as well not have played. Someone experienced needs to verify your setup to make sure there are no shenanigans. Make sure to PM me your setup when your game goes up (if not, earlier).
Also keep in mind it's important to build a game that's fun for the players, not just fun for you. Sure it'd be hilarious if there weren't any mafia in the game and you randomly killed people at night, but the players would not be happy when they found out.
7) Do not volunteer information not explicitly asked for.
This rule applies more to crazy game setups (such as pick your power) than to normal games, where it is near impossible to account for every crazy scenario that may happen in a game. The player is responsible for asking the right question, not the host for providing the outcome the player wanted/expected.
8) Do not hand out the role list.
Multiple hosts have agreed with me on this point; role lists should not be distributed to anybody. This includes, but is not limited to: players outside the game, coaches, and dead players. Most everyone is guilty of this (which is okay) but it is for the best if the role lists are not handed out until the game is over. In case of a mishap, it's okay to give it to someone like GMarshal or Foolishness to help resolve an issue.
9) Make sure you check the banlist thread before starting the game.
Should be self explanatory
10) Have a cohost for your game. Make sure your cohost actually does some work (however little).
This is already stated in the Active Games thread, but I wanted to put it in here for emphasis.
11) Double check, triple check, and get your cohost to check the vote count.
A good way to mess up a game is to accidentally kill the wrong person because the vote count was messed up. As there is never an easy solution to this that all parties are satisfied with, it is best to avoid this situation altogether.
12) PM Foolishness when your game ends (or make a post in the Active Games thread).
It helps me to know these things right away to make sure new games are up at the appropriate time.
13) Have fun!
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United States22154 Posts
You can now edit the OP foolishness
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Okay thank you.
IF YOU ARE A HOST YOU SHOULD READ THE OP AND MAKE SURE IT IS INGRAINED IN YOUR HEAD!
And update your OP's after every death! On the double!
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One thing that I'd like to add is for the host to update the full list of roles after the game is completed. Half of the battle in analyzing another players meta is to figure out what role they had in the game you are reading. Adding all the roles to the OP after the game is done is hugely useful to the community as a whole.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back and make sure I did that in my games ^^
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that role list... you all would have been amazed to see mine, flamewheel
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Holy bump but...when and how as a host should you start hinting that one side should concede? Let's say you're at 10 town and 4 scum, with all the blues dead and the town wandering in circles. Would it be acceptable to ask the town to consider conceding?
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11589 Posts
Always let them play it out.
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Never, ever ask any team to concede. Immediately end the game if they are mathematically eliminated. If mafia all ask you to concede, usually let them. If town members ask you to concede, decline unless many players are asking, then PM each one privately about it.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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On December 09 2013 08:35 P-body wrote:
Never, ever ask any team to concede. Immediately end the game if they are mathematically eliminated. If mafia all ask you to concede, usually let them. If town members ask you to concede, decline unless many players are asking, then PM each one privately about it.
I am sure this (me) is might just be trollin or rollin the barrel, but...
When computing if they are mathematically eliminated, even though forgetting to send in actions actually happens :o, and scum might choose to with hold their shot under some conditions, and sometimes might get when to do that wrong, you are I believe entitled to assume scum don't forget to send in their night kills every night forever. When winning is reducto absurdum trivial from here and basically a waste of peoples time (A mechanical process), the fat lady sings.
A possibility exists (theoretically at least that), while it is obvious to the host that the scum team trivially won from here, you need to be sure that the scum team really know what to do. Hmmm. (artificial example)
A double roled, veteran doctor exists and the scum team really ought know this as its in the open OP (doh).
Scum have 2kp (1 scum vig shot) and must get 1 kill tonight to win. (as then they will also control the lynch)
For Me.
Scum can if they choose fail to realise or think to double stack for the required certain 1 kill. if they get really unlucky and shoot the vet/doc and his protect... they can still lose.(epically)
(I do discount the possibility of scum mistakenly shooting their own team member.... This too has been done, as in yeah N1 boom sucker scum kill a team mate... accidentally.. no purpose at all. He didn't read his Pm properly and didnt open his eyes when scum chose who to shoot. T_T.)
TLDR: be real careful what you assume, as it is possible to think game is over by underestimating how bad the scum teams decisions might be from here. Id err on the side of caution.
It can get little trickier with 3rd parties, in that you need to before the game decide if 3rd parties with special win conditions need to complete those before scum reach "inevitability". I believe it is normally so. I believe I have seen games where it was 'innevitable' that a 3rd party would reach their condition during the process by which the scum would innevitably win(kill all town), but the 3rd party was defined as not winning. (seems little artificial in terms of role playing it out but, as a game, that seems to generally be the best way that i have seen.)
TLDR: be double real careful if you have 3rd parties with weird win conditions such as collecting 3 items or ... if you do that then you will need to know you have very defined end conditions to be sure you know exactly when the game is over and thus the 3rd parties time to achieve that goal is up.
More generally.
The players drive the game the host just built the roads it travels on by decisions that are as far as possible all made before the game begins. I think of it like building titled board with all sorts of obstacles attached to it, then pouring a bag of marbles(players) in at the top(d1) and saying 'weeeeee'. Then you do it again but different if it did not work out so well or you just like fiddling with things.
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Even if scum have the game locked up, they can still lose through not following up (see LotR mafia). If there are two scum and three townies, and at the end of the day a scum member says "Shoot Townie A", then the game is over and you can end the game 10 minutes into the Night phase.
Sometimes players have gotten frustrated with me for "slowrolling", but I always end the game immediately when there is only one possibility. To do anything else is not fair to the players. If you want to end the game earlier, change the wincon in your OP to say "The game ends when one side cannot lose assuming scum does not withhold KP, bus a teammate, doublestack shots in a veteran-less town, or anything else 'wierd'". But that isn't really fair, so I don't actually suggest doing that.
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Generally that can only happen in normal vanilla games, with scum winning.
I.e, if it's MYLO, and town misslynches, and town has no vig/medic, you end the game with a scum win, even though you could technically prolong it one more day.
But like Axle said, there are situations where you, as host, might think "This game is 100% won" for some faction, when it is not, since you have to take into account that you have more info than the players (generally), and thus their actions may not be the "optimal" ones that will make them win.
Although yes, I would, as host, assume that scum will always NK, to mathematically determine if they already won or not. Since this only happens when there are few players left and they are all alert, etc, you know they won't forget to send the NK or something. Plus, theoretically the game is over by then, a single scum forgetting to send a night action would be kind of an "underserving" win to town (if town ends up winning it).
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why do you have to boldify your votes in the voting thread... all thats there is votes and i dont see any reason to, especially since it's hard to do on your phone.
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I usually dont for the reasons you just stated.
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On December 14 2013 13:45 kushm4sta wrote:
why do you have to boldify your votes in the voting thread... all thats there is votes and i dont see any reason to, especially since it's hard to do on your phone.
TBMK its mainly polite to players and hosts as its easier to visually scan for bold votes.
Its Ok in my view for hosts to make rules to make it a bit easier for them.
If anyone ever builds an automatic vote counter.
While the ## is pretty good start
##vote kushm4sta
renders as
<br><b>##vote kushm4sta</b> in the html
So its also nice to put the vote at the start of line ##unvote kushm4sta and not buried mid line.
Also hiding your vote is scummy
one of the trickier parts of an auto vote counter is noticing the votes that look like they are at the start of a line but are actually inside someone quoting and commenting on a vote by a different player.
That is Ok, a state machine to track if the text is inside a quote or not is not that hard.
It gets hard when people quote a ##vote post but mess up the tags ... and while it *may* still be clear to a human or host what in the hell you meant any kind of auto vote counter may go splat.
The solution as near as i can tell on 2p2 is they use an auto vote counter and its caveat emptor for the players.
If your vote does match their algorithm it doesn't count.
A real good, solution is an interactive UI that lets hosts store any special decision they made that certain confusing posts either do or do not contain vote. To do it well is ... some work.
As their(2p2's) algorithm/rule includes no visual markers such as ## its bit gnarly as I think
kushm4sta is a valid vote on 2p2.
kushm4sta as maybe is a valid vote.
I vote for kushm4sta was i believe not a valid vote as the player name wasnt at the start of a section of bold.
I vote for kushm4sta was This one might be valid vote as I ended and restarted the bold bit....
(quote the posts to see what I did.)
So yeah I kinda like ##vote player name its simple, but then I dont phone post so YMMV.
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axle im talking about in a voting thread
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On December 15 2013 14:35 kushm4sta wrote:
axle im talking about in a voting thread
oops. (I should l2read)
One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.
+ Show Spoiler +
meaning I am fairly sure if we had two different ways it was meant to be done then players would get much worse at bolding when voting in the game thread.
At the present time some people seemingly in practice find it challenging to remember to vote, if they also had to remember which way to vote in this thread....
While its the rule for how to vote, my observation is that because Tl vote counts are done manually, hosts accept any vote they can read in practice. (probably without usually even noticing the typos/jokes)
[b]##vote kush[b]
[b]##vote KushionM4ster[b]
[b]##vote koosh[b]
would likely/maybe get you voted, until the host realised the person voting was trolling or gaming or angle shooting them... then bad things would happen.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On December 14 2013 13:47 Coagulation wrote:
I usually dont for the reasons you just stated.
But if I bold my vote, it makes me feel like my penis is just that little bit bigger.
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On December 16 2013 21:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2013 13:47 Coagulation wrote:
I usually dont for the reasons you just stated. But if I bold my vote, it makes me feel like my penis is just that little bit bigger.
and that is the point of playing this game after all. shhh.
+ Show Spoiler + Well it is actually important for hosts to know what is important to the players that play in their games.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
If you are a host you should read the OP.
And you should read it again just to make sure you actually read it.
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This site is way too biased towards hosts. All the players want normal games. But the only games available are imbalanced host vanity projects.
The worst offenders are games that START A NEW GAME ONCE THEY ARE DONE. So effectively you are taking one of the limited game slots for double the normal time plus all the players, most of which only play one game at a time. cough chrono trigger cough cough...
Oh and you aren't allowed to say anything bad about hosts, because they just give and give to the community and ask nothing return right? Wrong. Hosting is how they get their chubbies. They crave the power and the admiration that comes from having a charitable reputation.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I do think there should be more slots for normal games to be honest
edit: when I say normal I mean traditional tried and tested basic mafia games which should be a recurring event IMO
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see holyflare agrees with me 100%
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I was mostly joking with my host bashing. But seriously wtf.
Can't we have mostly normal mafia and only 1 fucked up game, instead of ALL fucked up games running at the same time?
Let's look at the current games.
Big Brother- illegitimate joke game
Shadow mini mafia - what a travesty. I am not allowed to participate in this game at all. Ubervets and noobs only. Oh yeah and this is a DOUBLE game which uses 21 players simultaneously..
Resistance 3 - not mafia. Also do you know how long resistance games take??
TL LXIV - huge game (unavoidable spamfest) which is only half full and is going to take very very long to fill.
newbie game - tried to participate in one of these once and i almost got permabanned. sorry for wanting to actually play mafia!
So the next mafia game is extractor trick, (hosted by BH so you know it's going to be fucked up somehow). OH and it doesn't start until after resistance, which as I mentioned before lasts forever. that game is going to be very in demand just because it's normal. Then two more theme games before another normal...
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tldr there need to be more mini normals even though they aren't sexy to host.
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I can host one in like three weeks.
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On December 30 2013 07:45 Kurumi wrote:
I can host one in like three weeks.
I can host one soon as resistance is done if people like
So whichever is sooner I guess will determine who does what.
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On December 30 2013 09:03 Alakaslam wrote:I can host one soon as resistance is done if people like So whichever is sooner I guess will determine who does what.
Can cohost that
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On December 30 2013 09:13 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 09:03 Alakaslam wrote:On December 30 2013 07:45 Kurumi wrote:
I can host one in like three weeks. I can host one soon as resistance is done if people like So whichever is sooner I guess will determine who does what. Can cohost that
Guess this means I'm Blazinghand and you are a lot of ppl
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However we can set up for later ones, or one right when extractor finishes if you're up for it.
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On December 30 2013 07:25 kushm4sta wrote:
I was mostly joking with my host bashing. But seriously wtf.
Can't we have mostly normal mafia and only 1 fucked up game, instead of ALL fucked up games running at the same time?
Let's look at the current games.
Big Brother- illegitimate joke game
Shadow mini mafia - what a travesty. I am not allowed to participate in this game at all. Ubervets and noobs only. Oh yeah and this is a DOUBLE game which uses 21 players simultaneously..
Resistance 3 - not mafia. Also do you know how long resistance games take??
TL LXIV - huge game (unavoidable spamfest) which is only half full and is going to take very very long to fill.
newbie game - tried to participate in one of these once and i almost got permabanned. sorry for wanting to actually play mafia!
So the next mafia game is extractor trick, (hosted by BH so you know it's going to be fucked up somehow). OH and it doesn't start until after resistance, which as I mentioned before lasts forever. that game is going to be very in demand just because it's normal. Then two more theme games before another normal...
I share this sentiment.
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Kush's concerns are valid and I agree with many of his points.
What we have on this site is unsatisfied demand and restricted supply, leaving us with many dissatisfied players.
I believe the ideal solution is to allow the following types of games to be posted simultaneously and to compete for player attention:
4 Minis(Any amount can be normal or themed)
2 Themed(Big) ->Alternate with big normals once in while.
Basically, increase the sheer amount of games that can be posted at any one time.
Why?
1) Minis not only draw more player attention, they are also shorter and capture higher hosting demand. Thus, we can cycle through games faster and allow more hosts to host more games.
2) By incorporating multiple simultaneous playable games, players are given a greater variety of choice. Choice is the precursor to competition, which will incentivize better hosting in the long-run. Hosts will have to make games that are better than the other hosts in order to fill up their games. They can no longer rely on forcing players to play games they don't want to play to move the queue along.
3) By throwing a greater amount of games into the playing field, players will choose the games that play to their strengths. This is likely to lead to higher quality games.
4) Players can more easily avoid playing with people they dislike. This will avoid the drama and conflict that is hurting TL Mafia recently.
Addressing the Downside:
We will have quite a few hosts that will be unable to fill up their games because players would rather play other, more interesting games. Although I agree it would be a problem, it also provides a form of feedback for hosts to improve their setups. Finally, hosts will come to the realization that no one wants to play their setups and they are doing something fundamentally wrong when they create their games. They can then come up with solutions to make their setups either more balanced or more simple.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 30 2013 07:25 kushm4sta wrote:
Big Brother- illegitimate joke game
On December 10 2013 03:19 kitaman27 wrote:6) kushm4sta Filter evicted day one and day five
LOL
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 30 2013 09:45 FirmTofu wrote:
Kush's concerns are valid and I agree with many of his points.
What we have on this site is unsatisfied demand and restricted supply, leaving us with many dissatisfied players.
I believe the ideal solution is to allow the following types of games to be posted simultaneously and to compete for player attention:
4 Minis(Any amount can be normal or themed)
2 Themed(Big) ->Alternate with big normals once in while.
Basically, increase the sheer amount of games that can be posted at any one time.
Why?
1) Minis not only draw more player attention, they are also shorter and capture higher hosting demand. Thus, we can cycle through games faster and allow more hosts to host more games.
2) By incorporating multiple simultaneous playable games, players are given a greater variety of choice. Choice is the precursor to competition, which will incentivize better hosting in the long-run. Hosts will have to make games that are better than the other hosts in order to fill up their games. They can no longer rely on forcing players to play games they don't want to play to move the queue along.
3) By throwing a greater amount of games into the playing field, players will choose the games that play to their strengths. This is likely to lead to higher quality games.
4) Players can more easily avoid playing with people they dislike. This will avoid the drama and conflict that is hurting TL Mafia recently.
Addressing the Downside:
We will have quite a few hosts that will be unable to fill up their games because players would rather play other, more interesting games. Although I agree would be a problem, it also provides a form of feedback for hosts to improve their setups. Finally, hosts will come to the realization that no one wants to play their setups and they are doing something fundamentally wrong when they create their games. They can then come up with solutions to make their setups either more balanced or more simple.
Okay let's do it with the start of the new year. I'll start organizing a system so it's not complete chaos.
It would be nice to set some sort of time limit so that if a game has been posted for X amount of time and hasn't started then the thread gets closed. There have been situations where someone posts a game, nobody signs up so the thread dies and gets moved to page two, then someone bumps it twenty days later with an /in post.
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Foolishness making the big plays.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 30 2013 10:52 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Foolishness making the big plays.
It'll be TL Mafia XXVII all over again 
+ Show Spoiler +
For the youngsters, I was a watcher and caught a mafia by watching myself at night.
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On December 30 2013 07:34 kushm4sta wrote:
tldr there need to be more mini normals even though they aren't sexy to host.
+1
actually, like +1000000
I had a look at when the last plain, basic mini normal was a few days ago... IIRC it was September or something :/
On December 30 2013 07:45 Kurumi wrote:
I can host one in like three weeks.
I could host one right now 
On December 30 2013 11:17 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 10:52 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Foolishness making the big plays. It'll be TL Mafia XXVII all over again + Show Spoiler +
For the youngsters, I was a watcher and caught a mafia by watching myself at night.
rofl such plays many wow
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Would people consider the mafiascum C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B) setup as normal compared to the themed games? It's not as vanilla as some of the other games (BttB for example) so still interesting to host I'd say. But not sure if it crosses a line with too many power roles.
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On December 30 2013 11:42 Rean wrote:
Would people consider the mafiascum C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B) setup as normal compared to the themed games? It's not as vanilla as some of the other games (BttB for example) so still interesting to host I'd say. But not sure if it crosses a line with too many power roles.
C9++ has been run in the past here as a normal game, though typically with some modifications to accomodate the different playstyle of TL as opposed to MS.net. (For instance, c9++ mini mafia). Actually, the game I'm hosting is loosely based off C9++.
As an aside, I came across this variant of c9++: notable differences are
- instead of 1-shot cop uses an insane cop or millers to balance C
- instead of 1-shot doctor/roleblocker uses a backup doctor/roleblocker
- serial killers can end up with a huge list of weird powers
I'd be interested to know whether these kind of modifications would still be considered a "normal game" by y'all - consider this a request for comments. (Maybe not the Serial Killer stuff since that's bizarre but the concept of backup roles and insane cops in a mini doesn't seem too farfetched.)
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On December 30 2013 10:32 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 09:45 FirmTofu wrote:
Kush's concerns are valid and I agree with many of his points.
What we have on this site is unsatisfied demand and restricted supply, leaving us with many dissatisfied players.
I believe the ideal solution is to allow the following types of games to be posted simultaneously and to compete for player attention:
4 Minis(Any amount can be normal or themed)
2 Themed(Big) ->Alternate with big normals once in while.
Basically, increase the sheer amount of games that can be posted at any one time.
Why?
1) Minis not only draw more player attention, they are also shorter and capture higher hosting demand. Thus, we can cycle through games faster and allow more hosts to host more games.
2) By incorporating multiple simultaneous playable games, players are given a greater variety of choice. Choice is the precursor to competition, which will incentivize better hosting in the long-run. Hosts will have to make games that are better than the other hosts in order to fill up their games. They can no longer rely on forcing players to play games they don't want to play to move the queue along.
3) By throwing a greater amount of games into the playing field, players will choose the games that play to their strengths. This is likely to lead to higher quality games.
4) Players can more easily avoid playing with people they dislike. This will avoid the drama and conflict that is hurting TL Mafia recently.
Addressing the Downside:
We will have quite a few hosts that will be unable to fill up their games because players would rather play other, more interesting games. Although I agree would be a problem, it also provides a form of feedback for hosts to improve their setups. Finally, hosts will come to the realization that no one wants to play their setups and they are doing something fundamentally wrong when they create their games. They can then come up with solutions to make their setups either more balanced or more simple. Okay let's do it with the start of the new year. I'll start organizing a system so it's not complete chaos. It would be nice to set some sort of time limit so that if a game has been posted for X amount of time and hasn't started then the thread gets closed. There have been situations where someone posts a game, nobody signs up so the thread dies and gets moved to page two, then someone bumps it twenty days later with an /in post.
I love the time limit idea. A prime example was Crossfire's hydra game that never got filled (Sorry Crossfire). A few people would bump it thinking it was still open for signups and Crossfire himself bumped it a few times to see if it would attract attention. A time limit would do a good job of dealing with such problems.
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On December 30 2013 11:54 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 10:32 Foolishness wrote:On December 30 2013 09:45 FirmTofu wrote:
Kush's concerns are valid and I agree with many of his points.
What we have on this site is unsatisfied demand and restricted supply, leaving us with many dissatisfied players.
I believe the ideal solution is to allow the following types of games to be posted simultaneously and to compete for player attention:
4 Minis(Any amount can be normal or themed)
2 Themed(Big) ->Alternate with big normals once in while.
Basically, increase the sheer amount of games that can be posted at any one time.
Why?
1) Minis not only draw more player attention, they are also shorter and capture higher hosting demand. Thus, we can cycle through games faster and allow more hosts to host more games.
2) By incorporating multiple simultaneous playable games, players are given a greater variety of choice. Choice is the precursor to competition, which will incentivize better hosting in the long-run. Hosts will have to make games that are better than the other hosts in order to fill up their games. They can no longer rely on forcing players to play games they don't want to play to move the queue along.
3) By throwing a greater amount of games into the playing field, players will choose the games that play to their strengths. This is likely to lead to higher quality games.
4) Players can more easily avoid playing with people they dislike. This will avoid the drama and conflict that is hurting TL Mafia recently.
Addressing the Downside:
We will have quite a few hosts that will be unable to fill up their games because players would rather play other, more interesting games. Although I agree would be a problem, it also provides a form of feedback for hosts to improve their setups. Finally, hosts will come to the realization that no one wants to play their setups and they are doing something fundamentally wrong when they create their games. They can then come up with solutions to make their setups either more balanced or more simple. Okay let's do it with the start of the new year. I'll start organizing a system so it's not complete chaos. It would be nice to set some sort of time limit so that if a game has been posted for X amount of time and hasn't started then the thread gets closed. There have been situations where someone posts a game, nobody signs up so the thread dies and gets moved to page two, then someone bumps it twenty days later with an /in post. I love the time limit idea. A prime example was Crossfire's hydra game that never got filled (Sorry Crossfire). A few people would bump it thinking it was still open for signups and Crossfire himself bumped it a few times to see if it would attract attention. A time limit would do a good job of dealing with such problems.
There's no need to apologize. No one wanted to play my game so I let it die. I'm fine with this idea as long as it takes into account ongoing games. I think there should be enough time for the "losers" of the signup process to still have a chance once the number of ongoing games wind down and more players become available again. Basically, if a game ends up like "Hydra" Mafia in this new format, it should still die, but a slow filling game should get a few "chances" to fill up when there are actually enough players to play in the game.
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Remove the Host Quene
Simple right? Games fill up by demand, and if people want to play a normal they can sign up for a normal. Lemme host more than one game at a time and I will host whatever you want
EDIT: I just really want to host my short minis again without having to wait 2 months before I get another chance to host
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On December 30 2013 12:55 LSB wrote:
Remove the Host Quene
Simple right? Games fill up by demand, and if people want to play a normal they can sign up for a normal. Lemme host more than one game at a time and I will host whatever you want
EDIT: I just really want to host my short minis again without having to wait 2 months before I get another chance to host
I like normals.
Kush is pretty close to on the money + Show Spoiler [Kushes Post] +On December 30 2013 07:25 kushm4sta wrote:
I was mostly joking with my host bashing. But seriously wtf.
Can't we have mostly normal mafia and only 1 fucked up game, instead of ALL fucked up games running at the same time?
Let's look at the current games.
Big Brother- illegitimate joke game
Shadow mini mafia - what a travesty. I am not allowed to participate in this game at all. Ubervets and noobs only. Oh yeah and this is a DOUBLE game which uses 21 players simultaneously..
Resistance 3 - not mafia. Also do you know how long resistance games take??
TL LXIV - huge game (unavoidable spamfest) which is only half full and is going to take very very long to fill.
newbie game - tried to participate in one of these once and i almost got permabanned. sorry for wanting to actually play mafia!
So the next mafia game is extractor trick, (hosted by BH so you know it's going to be fucked up somehow). OH and it doesn't start until after resistance, which as I mentioned before lasts forever. that game is going to be very in demand just because it's normal. Then two more theme games before another normal...
+ Show Spoiler [irrelevant OT] +except i remember the newbie from the outside slightly differently to how he does but meh
simply eliminating the queue is likely to create the problems it was introduced to solve.
The actual ratio, of mini "normals" to others (esp themed has changed even though the ratio is seemingly fixed....)
(partly due to a kerfuffle we had 3 themeds in the queue. So this has been an unusual spell)
While resistance isn't mafia, its rather a lot related + Show Spoiler +(it is a little less than villagers and were wolves, but it isn't role madness and the the most powerful thing in the game is reads, and so for me it is normal(ish) mafia.)
From
Kush's point of view, however, the exclusionary (invite vet + newbs) shadow mafia coming on the back of a dearth of normal games has exacerbated the previous mentioned dry spell. From Kush's point of view there has been very large gap between _suitable_ mini normal mafias. (There is also a large gap from my point of view, that it coincided with me not feeling like playing makes it less of a pressing issue for me.)
Overreacting to fix it, is 'bad plan'™.
Note the above opinion is from person who simply wont play mafia again unless the next game I play is a normal mini.
Even then don't know I am offering to sign up to play normal mafia tomorrow either. I am little burnt and jaded. I am not sure Id be fun to play with, or would have fun playing.
I too can host normal minis, indeed will probably(90%) only host normal minis.
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If we remove the quene, the people who want to play normal minis can just sign up for those games, and there will always be hosts looking to host some sort of game.
The thing that is blocking people from doing that is because the quene makes it so that there are no normal minis that people can sign up for.
A more immediate fix is to argue that Shadow is not a true normal mini and have signups open for another normal mini
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On December 30 2013 11:42 Rean wrote:
Would people consider the mafiascum C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B) setup as normal compared to the themed games? It's not as vanilla as some of the other games (BttB for example) so still interesting to host I'd say. But not sure if it crosses a line with too many power roles.
Part of the problem with C9++ which has lead to our variations on it are how easy the set-up is to game and how difficult it makes fake claiming as scum. Running a straight C9++ set-up usually ends up being somewhat town favoured (WBG discussed this in the post game of ACME twoish years ago). Running a C9++ and informing the players of that fact makes it very town favoured.
I too would love the resurgence of [N][M] games
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 30 2013 13:32 LSB wrote:
If we remove the quene, the people who want to play normal minis can just sign up for those games, and there will always be hosts looking to host some sort of game.
The thing that is blocking people from doing that is because the quene makes it so that there are no normal minis that people can sign up for.
A more immediate fix is to argue that Shadow is not a true normal mini and have signups open for another normal mini
The queue has generated more normal minis than there were before the queue. Before the queue and in the early days of the queue the queue was 75% themed games.
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On December 30 2013 13:35 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 11:42 Rean wrote:
Would people consider the mafiascum C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B) setup as normal compared to the themed games? It's not as vanilla as some of the other games (BttB for example) so still interesting to host I'd say. But not sure if it crosses a line with too many power roles. Part of the problem with C9++ which has lead to our variations on it are how easy the set-up is to game and how difficult it makes fake claiming as scum. Running a straight C9++ set-up usually ends up being somewhat town favoured (WBG discussed this in the post game of ACME twoish years ago). Running a C9++ and informing the players of that fact makes it very town favoured. I too would love the resurgence of [N][M] games
How is the setup easy to game? It's randomly generated so you can't straightup break it. I suppose a certain amount of power roles could indicate the rest of the players are VT but that'd be difficult to accomplish IMO.
As for it being town or scum favoured, I'm not sure. I can see some setups being really strong for town if scum doesn't know about them but there are fixes to that (roll setup randomly but make it open setup?). I'm not sure, not very experienced with hosting so. The setup just seems to me like it hits a nice balance between fun roles/setups without being too crazy, kinda like the numeral games but smaller sized.
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I wouldn't consider a game with a potential high amount of non-VT roles as normal, which C9++ has the potential to be
I think it would be really cool to have a "mafia cup", a series of small normal games where a victory grants you one point twoards some sort of ranking or invite based game.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 30 2013 12:55 LSB wrote:
Remove the Host Quene
Simple right? Games fill up by demand, and if people want to play a normal they can sign up for a normal. Lemme host more than one game at a time and I will host whatever you want
When we tried this about a year ago, it didn't work out very well. There were too many games available to join and not enough players. What would happen is that people would join 2-3 games at a time, the first game to fill up would start, and then people would immediately /out the other games, causing them to eventually die off. I guess you could argue that the handful of games that did start had the highest demand, but it wasn't any more efficient at getting games started than the queue.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
It's fine. If we can strike some sort of balance between a queue and a supply/demand system we may be able to achieve a more optimal system than strictly leaning one way or another. Of course it won't be without problems, but it may help get the best of both worlds.
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The problem with c9++ is that it's boring and not balanced. It has numerous issues: an inability of mafia to properly deal with medic+cop/vig combinations, a number of setups that only contain 2 mafia and are unbalanced no matter what the roles, huge amounts of confirmed townies with vig/innocent child/mason running around and leaving mafia with no options at all on kills and no way to effectively kill all of them, mafia roles (godfather) that are completely worthless against non-cop roles but still get inserted and somehow considered more useful than a goon even when town has no cop. A lot of hosts who run a "variant" are lazy and just replace a few roles without actually considering what impact that has on balance. The only variant that I've seen that I would consider even somewhat acceptable is the one that bugs used to run.
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.
I think that's a good idea as well. It still won't hurt to try something more open though. Perhaps we can switch to this idea if the signups point to this being a good idea.
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Ok. I totally agree that the setup can be very varied to the point of extreme imbalance (OP town/weak scum) and that it can create useless roles (godfather without cop). But I really like how it creates varied and more interesting setups than the standard normals, and I think that a properly balanced version could serve as a good basis for LSBs "mafia cup" idea, which I also quite like.
Perhaps I could somewhat adapt the setup to account for this, for example giving specific "power levels" for town/scum power roles, obviously giving no power at all to pointless roles (gf without cop), using that to balance the game out to prevent RNG creating overpowered sides.
Some things that could help balance it:
- Roll randomly but reveal what was rolled so scum can't be tricked/knows what to expect from town.
- The power levels idea
- Somewhat less randomness so the setup cant swing too heavily (always 3 scum, possiblity of an SK, max amount of town roles?).
- The variations that Aqua mentioned: insane cops and millers/backup roles (if original dies you become that role). Personally I don't really like the insane cop/miller thing but the backup sounds like a good alternative to one-shot roles which could be a bit too strong in certain scenarios.
Do you guys think there's a point in me trying to balance out the C9++ stuff so it can be used for a series of games or is it too broken to be repaired at all?
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I say just tailor anything you do to the demand for that game type.
If normal minis are filling up fast, we can assume that demand is high. We then take that as a cue to loosen up restrictions for normal minis specifically.
I think as long as the rules are dynamic and can quickly adjust to changing circumstances, we should be just fine.
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On December 30 2013 14:27 Rean wrote:
Ok. I totally agree that the setup can be very varied to the point of extreme imbalance (OP town/weak scum) and that it can create useless roles (godfather without cop). But I really like how it creates varied and more interesting setups than the standard normals, and I think that a properly balanced version could serve as a good basis for LSBs "mafia cup" idea, which I also quite like.
Perhaps I could somewhat adapt the setup to account for this, for example giving specific "power levels" for town/scum power roles, obviously giving no power at all to pointless roles (gf without cop), using that to balance the game out to prevent RNG creating overpowered sides.
Some things that could help balance it:
- Roll randomly but reveal what was rolled so scum can't be tricked/knows what to expect from town.
- The power levels idea
- Somewhat less randomness so the setup cant swing too heavily (always 3 scum, possiblity of an SK, max amount of town roles?).
- The variations that Aqua mentioned: insane cops and millers/backup roles (if original dies you become that role). Personally I don't really like the insane cop/miller thing but the backup sounds like a good alternative to one-shot roles which could be a bit too strong in certain scenarios.
Do you guys think there's a point in me trying to balance out the C9++ stuff so it can be used for a series of games or is it too broken to be repaired at all?
As an addition to this: perhaps we could use Xalatos' balance tester to help even out the game? It's not perfect but would be a good start for the power levels point.
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You should talk to wherebugsgo: he spent a lot of time making a c9++ variant and you can probably use his as a base.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone
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On December 30 2013 16:19 Blazinghand wrote:
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone
witchcraft... never forget
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On December 30 2013 16:19 Blazinghand wrote:
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone
Blazinghands GSL setup is the best setup I have ever played period, even if people consider it town favored. Closely followed by Bugs' C9 variant.
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The way I would approach this is that there should always be a Normal Mini open for signups separate from the que in the same way the newbies function.
Then everything else functions as normal.
Themed games are shit though and the amount of themed games at the moment is teh suck.
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On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.
Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.
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Literally if all the games are open you are going to have a heap of non filled games. I remember when this open hosting was tried before offsite and it was fail.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Yeah, the obvious solution to "need more mini normals" seems to be -> run more mini normals, not overhaul the whole system
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Do PM games count as normal?
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On December 30 2013 20:06 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting. Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.
This.
On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?
I hope they don't?!
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On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?
I suppose this information is... classified?
+ Show Spoiler +oh dear that was awful, I need to sleep
I would think not, but calling it "themed" isn't exactly right either.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 30 2013 20:06 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting. Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.
I. agree with this
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On December 31 2013 00:13 Aquanim wrote:I suppose this information is... classified? + Show Spoiler +oh dear that was awful, I need to sleep I would think not, but calling it "themed" isn't exactly right either.
Haven't you learned anything this year? There are always leaks ^^
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On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?
I don't think PMs are very constructive in Minis, but in normal size games I've gotten used to them and I find it strange that people don't think of them as very normal
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On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
The problem with c9++ is that it's boring and not balanced. It has numerous issues: an inability of mafia to properly deal with medic+cop/vig combinations, a number of setups that only contain 2 mafia and are unbalanced no matter what the roles, huge amounts of confirmed townies with vig/innocent child/mason running around and leaving mafia with no options at all on kills and no way to effectively kill all of them, mafia roles (godfather) that are completely worthless against non-cop roles but still get inserted and somehow considered more useful than a goon even when town has no cop. A lot of hosts who run a "variant" are lazy and just replace a few roles without actually considering what impact that has on balance. The only variant that I've seen that I would consider even somewhat acceptable is the one that bugs used to run.
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.
Hiro's proposal has my vote. Or it would if this were a democracy and not an awful oligarchy run by some foolish old man.
+ Show Spoiler + I love you foolishness, even though you are a ruthless oligarch
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Okay, if enough people think normal mini's should be hosted like the newbie games (i.e. put another one up as soon as signups fill) then let's go with that plan.
Should themed games just be consolidated into one queue?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Maybe there should be a queue for "games that aren't normal minis" so that our big themed games and big normal games don't trip over each other and the mini themed games in terms of signups. I'm not sure what kind of games are most popular but it wouldn't be a terrible idea. I guess in my ideal vision it would be:
1. the queue basically stays as it is now, but normal minis are removed from it and run like newbie minis
2. yay!
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
It might be kinda fun to come up with our own default normal mini setup that we could call our own, rather than running those dirty mafiascum setups. It obviously wouldn't be a requirement to host, but if enough people are interested we could try to put something together.
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I approve of Kita's idea and would help develop that set up if you want.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Let's make a thread for putting together a "TL Special" normal mini mafia setup. We can theorycraft and do cool things and also use it for newbie games if we want.
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Wow I can't believe I actually agree somewhat with kush.
No point in reiterating stuff here, though I personally think it's been more of a coincidental thing that a bunch of weird themed/long games are all taking place around the same time. In all my time here I've never seen so few normal minis and never seen the queue move quite so slowly.
Loving the ideas that people have come up with---'mafia cup' sounds awesome and after hosting one of the aforementioned giant long-ass themed games, it'll be nice once I get back into things to play some normals (and I'll get to play with some of the people who avoid themed stuff too---DP I miss you )
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
In any case I'm pretty lazy and I think previous hosting queue revamps have had issues (that offsite one didn't work out) so the easiest solution is give normal minis their own track like we do to newbie minis. This will also possibly help fill up themed and large normal games since people will know there's always a normal mini game open for signups.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Defer to the thread here for the discussion about normal mini's and the queue or to the Active Games List thread.
This thread to return to discussion about hosting etiquette from here on out.
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would you look at this thread
I haven't played mafia for a good while so I don't know if this is a general trend but in the two games I've played this Februrary there have been some questionable decisions from the hosts. I doubt any of it was intentional but it's still something we should try to prevent.
Host should just stop interferring with games because players don't play games to have it interferred with by a host. A good idea is to volunteer all information in the beginning of the game and then completely ignore any and all questions. Simply don't communicate with your players about the game after the game has started. Another good idea is not to answer questions posted in the thread. If players need additional information they can send you a PM and then if you want to answer it you can do so in the thread. This is way safer than the traditional more direct communication with a player.
And if any hosts have anything they're wondering about regarding a game, they should really just ask someone about it. There are tons and tons of helpful hosts on this forum.
dunno if this happens often and maybe it will just go away on its own if we ignore but i just remembered this thread so here's a bump anyway
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There are some prty simple things that host's could do to improve games that should be standard.
And it would not interfere with the games.
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It has become more and more a general trend.
Nothing you can do about it. People will just always "forget" they are not supposed to play the game when they are hosting it..
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On March 01 2015 12:55 prplhz wrote:
would you look at this thread
I haven't played mafia for a good while so I don't know if this is a general trend but in the two games I've played this Februrary there have been some questionable decisions from the hosts. I doubt any of it was intentional but it's still something we should try to prevent.
Host should just stop interferring with games because players don't play games to have it interferred with by a host. A good idea is to volunteer all information in the beginning of the game and then completely ignore any and all questions. Simply don't communicate with your players about the game after the game has started. Another good idea is not to answer questions posted in the thread. If players need additional information they can send you a PM and then if you want to answer it you can do so in the thread. This is way safer than the traditional more direct communication with a player.
And if any hosts have anything they're wondering about regarding a game, they should really just ask someone about it. There are tons and tons of helpful hosts on this forum.
dunno if this happens often and maybe it will just go away on its own if we ignore but i just remembered this thread so here's a bump anyway
Yes pls.
Not letting people ask questions in the thread is a good start.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
Yeh just don't ask mod any questions.
Mods dont talk in the thread except vote count.
I dont know what questions people need to ask anyway.
I
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I coach mods on my stream for 20$ hour
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EPT
