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A general guide to hosting etiquette - Page 5

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
December 30 2013 04:59 GMT
#81
It's fine. If we can strike some sort of balance between a queue and a supply/demand system we may be able to achieve a more optimal system than strictly leaning one way or another. Of course it won't be without problems, but it may help get the best of both worlds.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-30 05:10:15
December 30 2013 05:06 GMT
#82
The problem with c9++ is that it's boring and not balanced. It has numerous issues: an inability of mafia to properly deal with medic+cop/vig combinations, a number of setups that only contain 2 mafia and are unbalanced no matter what the roles, huge amounts of confirmed townies with vig/innocent child/mason running around and leaving mafia with no options at all on kills and no way to effectively kill all of them, mafia roles (godfather) that are completely worthless against non-cop roles but still get inserted and somehow considered more useful than a goon even when town has no cop. A lot of hosts who run a "variant" are lazy and just replace a few roles without actually considering what impact that has on balance. The only variant that I've seen that I would consider even somewhat acceptable is the one that bugs used to run.

On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
December 30 2013 05:20 GMT
#83
On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.

I think that's a good idea as well. It still won't hurt to try something more open though. Perhaps we can switch to this idea if the signups point to this being a good idea.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
Rean
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands808 Posts
December 30 2013 05:27 GMT
#84
Ok. I totally agree that the setup can be very varied to the point of extreme imbalance (OP town/weak scum) and that it can create useless roles (godfather without cop). But I really like how it creates varied and more interesting setups than the standard normals, and I think that a properly balanced version could serve as a good basis for LSBs "mafia cup" idea, which I also quite like.

Perhaps I could somewhat adapt the setup to account for this, for example giving specific "power levels" for town/scum power roles, obviously giving no power at all to pointless roles (gf without cop), using that to balance the game out to prevent RNG creating overpowered sides.

Some things that could help balance it:
- Roll randomly but reveal what was rolled so scum can't be tricked/knows what to expect from town.
- The power levels idea
- Somewhat less randomness so the setup cant swing too heavily (always 3 scum, possiblity of an SK, max amount of town roles?).
- The variations that Aqua mentioned: insane cops and millers/backup roles (if original dies you become that role). Personally I don't really like the insane cop/miller thing but the backup sounds like a good alternative to one-shot roles which could be a bit too strong in certain scenarios.

Do you guys think there's a point in me trying to balance out the C9++ stuff so it can be used for a series of games or is it too broken to be repaired at all?
FirmTofu
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1956 Posts
December 30 2013 05:30 GMT
#85
I say just tailor anything you do to the demand for that game type.

If normal minis are filling up fast, we can assume that demand is high. We then take that as a cue to loosen up restrictions for normal minis specifically.

I think as long as the rules are dynamic and can quickly adjust to changing circumstances, we should be just fine.
I lie a lot when I'm town. I never lie when I'm scum.
Rean
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands808 Posts
December 30 2013 05:42 GMT
#86
On December 30 2013 14:27 Rean wrote:
Ok. I totally agree that the setup can be very varied to the point of extreme imbalance (OP town/weak scum) and that it can create useless roles (godfather without cop). But I really like how it creates varied and more interesting setups than the standard normals, and I think that a properly balanced version could serve as a good basis for LSBs "mafia cup" idea, which I also quite like.

Perhaps I could somewhat adapt the setup to account for this, for example giving specific "power levels" for town/scum power roles, obviously giving no power at all to pointless roles (gf without cop), using that to balance the game out to prevent RNG creating overpowered sides.

Some things that could help balance it:
- Roll randomly but reveal what was rolled so scum can't be tricked/knows what to expect from town.
- The power levels idea
- Somewhat less randomness so the setup cant swing too heavily (always 3 scum, possiblity of an SK, max amount of town roles?).
- The variations that Aqua mentioned: insane cops and millers/backup roles (if original dies you become that role). Personally I don't really like the insane cop/miller thing but the backup sounds like a good alternative to one-shot roles which could be a bit too strong in certain scenarios.

Do you guys think there's a point in me trying to balance out the C9++ stuff so it can be used for a series of games or is it too broken to be repaired at all?


As an addition to this: perhaps we could use Xalatos' balance tester to help even out the game? It's not perfect but would be a good start for the power levels point.
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
December 30 2013 05:44 GMT
#87
You should talk to wherebugsgo: he spent a lot of time making a c9++ variant and you can probably use his as a base.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
December 30 2013 07:19 GMT
#88
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
kushm4sta
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States8878 Posts
December 30 2013 10:11 GMT
#89
On December 30 2013 16:19 Blazinghand wrote:
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone


witchcraft... never forget
OMGUS.net, kush sex blogs every friday night
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10854 Posts
December 30 2013 10:50 GMT
#90
On December 30 2013 16:19 Blazinghand wrote:
lol what's wrong with my games
british empire and gsl were great normal minis, well loved by evreryone


Blazinghands GSL setup is the best setup I have ever played period, even if people consider it town favored. Closely followed by Bugs' C9 variant.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10854 Posts
December 30 2013 10:59 GMT
#91
The way I would approach this is that there should always be a Normal Mini open for signups separate from the que in the same way the newbies function.

Then everything else functions as normal.

Themed games are shit though and the amount of themed games at the moment is teh suck.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10854 Posts
December 30 2013 11:06 GMT
#92
On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.

Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10854 Posts
December 30 2013 11:07 GMT
#93
Literally if all the games are open you are going to have a heap of non filled games. I remember when this open hosting was tried before offsite and it was fail.

"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36160 Posts
December 30 2013 13:55 GMT
#94
Yeah, the obvious solution to "need more mini normals" seems to be -> run more mini normals, not overhaul the whole system
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 30 2013 14:54 GMT
#95
Do PM games count as normal?
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16317 Posts
December 30 2013 15:02 GMT
#96
On December 30 2013 20:06 DarthPunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.

Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.

This.
On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?

I hope they don't?!
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
December 30 2013 15:13 GMT
#97
On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?

I suppose this information is... classified?

+ Show Spoiler +
oh dear that was awful, I need to sleep


I would think not, but calling it "themed" isn't exactly right either.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
December 30 2013 15:32 GMT
#98
On December 30 2013 20:06 DarthPunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2013 14:06 HiroPro wrote:
On the queue topic, why not simply run normal minis in the same way that newbie games currently are run? Have one continuously up and have someone to organize who's going to put up the next one. From what I saw of the time when incog's site was up and we had any number of games open for signup, I would not be in favor of completely open hosting.

Whoops didn't read this. Yeah this is the best solution.

I. agree with this
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
December 30 2013 15:49 GMT
#99
On December 31 2013 00:13 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?

I suppose this information is... classified?

+ Show Spoiler +
oh dear that was awful, I need to sleep


I would think not, but calling it "themed" isn't exactly right either.

Haven't you learned anything this year? There are always leaks ^^
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
December 30 2013 15:55 GMT
#100
On December 30 2013 23:54 iGrok wrote:
Do PM games count as normal?

I don't think PMs are very constructive in Minis, but in normal size games I've gotten used to them and I find it strange that people don't think of them as very normal
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
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