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@stefftastiq
It's also worth noting that for the first day's lynch, Palmar voted against the town's wishes. He's been claiming that he doesn't want to lynch inactives, but he still cast his vote for an inactive d1 and didn't change it to the scum OR to the inactive everyone else chose to vote for. Obviously if he'd voted for the inactive we might not have caught the scum, but I think that's less a result of calculated intent by Palmar and more a happy side-effect of prplhz switching his vote last minute.
Mataza is going to vote for prplhz regardless of what anyone says, but I think the very best lynch for today is going to be Palmar as he's PROVEN that he's unwilling to bend for the good of the town. This way we can get a cop-read on prplhz (if one exists...) and go into d3 with as much information as possible.
@Town
A vote for Palmar is a vote for town victory.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
On May 20 2011 20:28 stefftastiq wrote:
its also noteworth that Karshe also voted for skrammen - though he was town -which kind of proves that votingpattern isnt bound to make that player scum or town,
Aha, this is something important that hadn't been addressed. If mafia were apart of the offvoter group, why would they narrow it down further by killing off an innocent offvoter? That doesn't mean that all offvoters are suddenly innocent, but it does make it a somewhat level playing field.
Unfortunately I won't be able to stay up to read the rest of the day's discussion, so I'm going to have to bandwagon again. The 4 votes already cast are all over the place, but I think there's one person here that currently stands out relative to the other active posters.
##Vote: Palmar
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So here I am, having the biggest WIFOM argument of my live with myself. It's pretty silly how things turn out like this.
It should be clear to everyone by now that Mataza's plan for having blue roles reveal themselves would not benefit anyone but the mafia. The logic is simple enough ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9347746 <--- for anyone that's interested), and no one ought to have any trouble seeing why the plan is bad.
But this is after all a newbie game, shouldn't we expect a bad idea with good intentions? This was my initial reaction to his plan, thus I simply corrected it and moved on.
I would've expected to be done with the issue, but there are two things that keep nagging me. First is that Mataza kept pushing his plan, even after the critical flaws in it had been pointed out. If the mistake was just a miscalculation, he'd have seen it refuted, and stopped it.
The other thing that really bugs me is that Mataza seems to have some experience playing mafia, so he's the last person in town I'd expect to fall to such simple logical errors.
Even further, Mataza is doing some blatantly anti-town things in his latest posts. Check out this one for example:
On May 20 2011 12:00 Mataza wrote:
Nope, this is what I did all game.
You might remember back on day 1 when I put FoS on you for a couple hours.
I dropped, as you also may remember. Because you are quite obvious green.
And yes, Doctor didn´t claim but I KNOW WHO HE IS, because I have awesome observational skills.
Why on earth would you post that you know who the doctor is? The same information is available to everyone, so now the mafia will go back, read the thread again and try to find whatever you found and expose our doctor.
It does not help the town in any way that you're telling us you know who the doctor is. It doesn't further our purpose and it only creates confusion.
My problem is that I had no scum read on Mataza before this incident. Even his randomness during day 1 seemed to be pretty town oriented, but this thing is definitely bad for town. I can't possibly see how pushing a bad plan might be good for town... except if he's hoping mafia jumps on his plan or something...
Surprisingly enough, there is one person I'd really like to hear speak about the incident and the issue, and that is VisEyes.
Assuming you followed up:
On May 20 2011 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
Maybe you can call us all sheep today too. -.- And I had just about cleared you in my mind. Back to page 3 I guess.
*weep*
Did you find anything of interest once you read Mataza's posts from the point of view that he was an experienced scum trying to lead the town awry?
I just can't find any justification from a town point of view for what Mataza is doing right about now.
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##Vote: prplhz
Mataza if you aren't right about this I will make it my duty to get you lynched. Mafia or not, if you aren't right about this, I'm going to be pissed.
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The big analysis of Prplhz
Prplhz has been preceived as scummy day1. After Giygas flipped red, perceived suspicion against him dropped a whole lot, as we are seemingly back to hunting inactives.
If I am right, he knew he was suspicious day 1. He also knew Giygas was even worse off. So he tried to make 2 bads into 1 good and voted Giygas off, so he is cleared off suspicion.
1) Now it has been enough time to relatively safely assume we have no cop in the game.
If this is true, it means we have 1 doc and no roleblockers ingame.
But prplhz claimed to have been roleblocked.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=19#364 On May 20 2011 08:36 prplhz wrote:
Oh shit I need to do some roleblock discussion too.
Right, Karshe got killed and I got blocked. We either have Doc+Cop or we have vanilla town. The scum has known this all along.
Now Imagine this. Scum tried to block townie. Why on earth would they do that? Only makes sense if they are trying to do some mind games, but would it not be better to block someone other than me? Someone who is townie but who is acting scummy? Now imagine this: Scum tried to block Doc. If I am doc would their blocking me have helped in their assassination of Karshe? Not likely, I do not think I ever even mentioned Karshe before he was killed so why would they think I would try to save him? So scum tried to block Cop?
What are your thoughts on this?
My thought on this matter is he is Scum and there is no roleblock.
He tried to distract us with talk about happy fun stuff like who the scum thinks is Doctor or Cop.
That´s my stance on it.
2) Prplhz talks about leaders being obviously bad for town, while a few hours later talking about how good it is to have people under control.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=6#102 On May 17 2011 09:26 prplhz wrote:Sup guys Right now I am mainly suspecting Mataza, mainly because of something that Mataza said early on: Now this statement could very well be benign but it is doing two things: degrading the town to diminish people's confidence in their ability to play this game (overestimate) making them more susceptible to get influenced by someone (himself) and setting himself up as a "leader" of the town (my town). I do not know why Mataza is trying to set himself up as a leader of the town but there are two scenarios: 1. He's a scum: He wants to control people and mislead them to vote for innocent people and keep the mafia save. 2. He's a townie: He wants to control people and lead to to vote for guilty scum and keep the town save. Either way he is trying to be a "leader" of the town and this in itself is bad. A town should never have a leader and should instead have people thinking very independently forming their own opinion, this should happen through discussion and activity of course. Mataza is very savvy and probably knows that having a leader is not good for a town, so why is he trying to set himself up to be one? This is a question that everybody should ask themselves.Now stuff that might talk against this: First: Mataza is actually not pointing fingers at anybody, I think we should be very careful if he ever decides to "lead" "his town" to vote for someone. Second (as pointed out by Mataza himself): If he is trying to lead this town as a scum would lead it we would quickly find out (we would lynch innocent people). And since we can afford losing people, trading a townie (guy Mataza would want to lynch) for a scum (Mataza) is really a good deal for the town. Maybe he is setting himself and the mafia up for mid/late game? This is a question that everybody should ask themselves.Other than that I think that all the debate around Mataza is hurting the town (we are not talking about someone else). So to stop this I am going to talk about someone else: VisceraEyes and GiygaS It is very hard for me to argue against VisceraEyes and GiygaS because I am also suspicious of Mataza. This is very hard because, while these two guys have been on Mataza's back the whole time they claim that it has been for the sake of activity. This has worked alright since these three guys are arguably the most contributing players in this game right now so their claimed plans have worked out well. But why are they not directing any of this activity against each other? This is a question that everybody should ask themselves.(Bladibla...) Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:25 nard wrote:
i can imagine there are still some people thinking about what they could include in their first post which is not completely trivial - took me a while as well :p While this might be a whole new game for everybody it should not be hard for an innocent townie to write a simple "hello" post. Maybe nard is having a hard time writing his first post because he is a scum with a hidden agenda and then he is thinking that everybody else is having a hard time too? This is a question that everybody should ask themselves. Note that he also likes us to ask ourself questions, derailing from the important things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=7#129 On May 17 2011 21:48 prplhz wrote:(Bladibla...) I also think that it is bad that people have removed focus from Mataza. While he might not be scum this town has him very much under control. He is very active and has agreed to answer every question directed at him. These are very useful qualities for town to find in a player, no matter if he is scum or townie. We should have tried to use these qualities to hunt scum. I would love to have waited with this post until GiygaS next post but lets just go ahead and do some analysis. I do not think that Mataza is harmful for this town just yet. He is under control so far, I would like him to be more harmful for the Mafia though. So I ask this: @Mataza : With the information available to you now, who would you lynch if you should lynch the player you think is most likely to be Scum? (Bladibla...) @VisceraEyes : Do you think that it is beneficial for the town that you suddenly make a 180 in letting Mataza off the hook and go full force against stefftastiq? Another player who has struck me as harmful to the town is Palmar. He has recently used some very questionable rhetorics to defend Mataza, and while it might be good that Mataza is not lynched, questionable rhetorics are always harmful to town. But on the other hand he also appears to be a very strong player who the town can make good use of later on, so maybe it is just a question of getting him under control  (Bladibla...) It is very good to have people under control; the more they post the more we can ask questions and the more we can make ourselves sure that someone is scum/townie. We will probably have two modkills but maybe it will be beneficial to town to lynch one of the least active players, to set an example, to make the game more fun, to maybe hit a lurking scum! Oh yeah and GiygaS; my nick is "purple haze" without any vowels or spaces 
Where did this sudden change come from?
3) Voting affairs.
His last 3 posts before his vote:+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=8#148 On May 18 2011 03:11 prplhz wrote:@Skrammen Hi, could you please, in a very short while, provide A LOT more content for us to analyze? I was kinda hoping you would get modkilled. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=8#152On May 18 2011 06:20 prplhz wrote:Maybe we cracked down too much on people trying to create drama 'cause I have to agree with Karshe that there is too little discussion going on. So I'm asking everybody (and that include you, person who is reading this now) to post who they would like to get lynched on day2 in case they themselves will get assassinated during the night. I think that I might be a target (hoping for a cute nurse to help me out though!) so this is probably quite relevant. This will be great for town, we can have you analytical skills readily available for day2 even if you get killed during the night! So let me say that I've cracked down a bit on the active people, but in the end I think I am going to vote for an inactive player because the evil you don't know is far more scary than the evil you do know! This will most likely only be for day1 though and I'm sure the scums already know that. So if they eliminate me it will be because they might be afraid that I will try to rally people to kill off someone who I think is a scum, and who is active. People who fit this description according to my posts so far are VisceraEyes and GiygaS, I said that if they turned on each other they would most likely be one scum, one good guy. So if I happen to get mafia killed on first night I think these are people you should really watch out for, but probably only one of them is scum! So what about you people, if you had to write a testament to the town today, what would it say? And by the way, I am going to write a vote post in around an hour, so it will be up before two hours. ((OOC: Oh and Palmar, no hard feelings about the "idiot" thing  )) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=8#160On May 18 2011 07:35 prplhz wrote:Yea I'm gonna go ahead and vote now. ##Vote Skrammen Reason for this is that he just comes in 8 hours before day1 ends, casts and vote with 2 paragraphs of resonable and does not respond to our pleas that he post some more content. I am going to be honest with you and say that maybe he's not the one who is most likely to be scum but I think he's the most harmful for the town right now. If I should have voted for most likely to be scum I would vote for VisceraEyes for reasons I have already stated. Also his latest post is not really convincing me of anything else either. To answer the post VisceraEyes just made, the one that was mainly about me; No I don't control anybody Other than that I can't seem to find anything in your post I should need to comment on because mostly you're just saying that you disagree with what I said.
More importantly notice how Giygas votes within 10 minutes of Prplhz.+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=8#157 On May 18 2011 07:25 GiygaS wrote:
Hello everyone!
On the subject of me having 3 votes, I'm more worried about who could slip by. Namely Skrammen.
Skrammen hasn't posted at all until suddenly, he burst on the scene: Announcing his business the last few days very vaguely, Then jumps on the current trend of voting for me, without any reasoning behind doing so. This seems very dangerous to me, so I'm going to vote for him for the same reason that prplhz has reasoned: an evil unknown is far greater then a known one.
##Vote Skrammen
First of all, this is out of character for Giygas. He somehow used great parts of prplhz reasoning before prplhz used it. Coincidence? I think not. Prplhz has been whispering into Giygas ear to write exactly that.
And at the end, like I said at the beginning, Prplhz changed his vote.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=11#220 On May 18 2011 10:55 prplhz wrote:
Yea this may be a huge mistake but if I'm gonna make it, it is going to be in the first game.
##Unvote Skrammen
##Vote GiygaS
My rationale:
The whole "vote for skrammen" thing was never about him being scum, it was about him being inactive and voting out of the blue. I think that we are going to have a lot better read on VisceraEyes, Mataza and Skrammen if we flip GiygaS, while flipping Skrammen will really give us nothing. Inactive players have hopefully learned their lesson.
Also I think it is very awesome that everybody voted, but it would be more awesome if everybody posted regularly too!
If he does not flip red I think the VisceraEyes is the best bid for a scum next time.
I'll probably be unavailable for the next 24 hours by way, and also for the first part of day1 but I will be here to answer questions just not to provide analysis. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=12#235 On May 18 2011 11:26 prplhz wrote:
I can't believe this.
A little short, no? I thought we wanted to get answers.
Why would you be shocked *at all* at giygas flipping red? You don´t know who mafia is, so you kinda suspect everyone.
The solution: Prplhz puts up an act.
This short answer is saying "I did not expect Giygas to be red"
On the other hand, he put the nail in the coffin and cast the final vote on Giygas.
A clear contradiction.
4) Little things.
Example a:
A long post that talks about Viscera and Giygas turning on each other.
Did this happen? I can´t remember that this happened at all.
He also talked about him being a target for the nightkill, because he "has been rallying people" all day. I did not notice any of his rallying.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=8#152 On May 18 2011 06:20 prplhz wrote:Maybe we cracked down too much on people trying to create drama 'cause I have to agree with Karshe that there is too little discussion going on. So I'm asking everybody (and that include you, person who is reading this now) to post who they would like to get lynched on day2 in case they themselves will get assassinated during the night. I think that I might be a target (hoping for a cute nurse to help me out though!) so this is probably quite relevant. This will be great for town, we can have you analytical skills readily available for day2 even if you get killed during the night! So let me say that I've cracked down a bit on the active people, but in the end I think I am going to vote for an inactive player because the evil you don't know is far more scary than the evil you do know! This will most likely only be for day1 though and I'm sure the scums already know that. So if they eliminate me it will be because they might be afraid that I will try to rally people to kill off someone who I think is a scum, and who is active.People who fit this description according to my posts so far are VisceraEyes and GiygaS, I said that if they turned on each other they would most likely be one scum, one good guy. So if I happen to get mafia killed on first night I think these are people you should really watch out for, but probably only one of them is scum! So what about you people, if you had to write a testament to the town today, what would it say? And by the way, I am going to write a vote post in around an hour, so it will be up before two hours. ((OOC: Oh and Palmar, no hard feelings about the "idiot" thing ))
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=21 On May 20 2011 11:09 prplhz wrote:Hey I just want to clarify that what GiygaS said after his lynching should NOT be considered by anybody as evidence of anything. The game ends when you die but as the rules state you can make a GG post and that's what GiygaS did. It is very unfortunate that he did not stop his sentence 3 words and a smiley earlier but I am sure that he did not mean anything by it. I'll post more analysis later but I'm always up for questions directed at me.
My guess is that Giygas should have said something different.
Nobody else cares about this little quip. I see no reason to even read something into that. So why does Prplhz do?
If you read Prplhz post history, look especially for him asking questions that derail us away from the question who is mafia. He often goes to "why would mafia do this" and other stuff. He especially talk often about things being harmful to town, but he never spoke about something being good for town. That is a scumtell, known along the line of "bashing bad ideas but never bringing forth any good ideas".
Prplhz is scum. I am as convinced as I was with Giygas.
My vote stays ##vote Prplhz
Help me help you help win the game.
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@Palmar
My view is that he's supremely confident in his ability to lead this town...it's just that I, like others, have a problem with his most recent methodology. What I found after rereading his posts is that he's been acting like this the whole game, as he states. He never faltered in his suspicion of GiygaS once he'd set his sights. As GiygaS fate was decided last minute, I don't suspect Mataza played a part in that last-minute decision. HOWEVER - I don't appreciate how he's taking the stance that he's the only one who decides peoples fate in this town. Further, I believe that if we filp you, we'll have more information on prplhz. This is the reason I'm not voting with Mataza in spite of my belief that he is, in fact, Town.
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@Palmar
I know my plan sounds insane. But if you work around all the numbers in the game it doesn´t sound that bad.
The game is set up in a way so town loses if we have 3 mislynches. We win the game when we lynch right 3 times.
On the other hand blue roles are important, but not that important. Good play does not rely on blue roles doing all the work.
There is a setup with no blue roles at all. If blue roles were crucial for success, town would have a 25% chance to be boned right from the start.
Also you have to keep in mind that if my plan works, we either get 1 scum if I was right from the start, or we get 2 scum, if the mafia make a mistake, or we get 3 confirmed innocents, if I was wrong.
Now 3 innocents doesn´t sound as good as getting scum. But mafia can only kill 1 person each night. Mafia would need 3 nights to recover.
Also getting 3 innocents was the most unlikely scenario as it would mean my entire read was wrong and I got lucky catching Giygas.
In essence I am a gambler, but I am not dumb.
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Wait what?
I am most likely town, and to get a read on my FoS, you instead kill me?
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EBWOP:
I should have used colors for the quotes in 3) voting affairs
Right now lack of reasoning is underlined in both Giygas and prplhz comments, "an evil unknown" is in italic and dangerous and harmful are both in bold.
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Role setup
+ Show Spoiler +Set Up:
1 Mafia Role Blocker, 2 Mafia Goons, 7 Town, 1 Medic, 1 Detective
1 Mafia Role Blocker, 2 Mafia Goons, 9 Town
3 Mafia Goons, 1 Medic, 8 Town.
3 Mafia Goons, 1 Detective, 8 Town.
1) Now it has been enough time to relatively safely assume we have no cop in the game.
If this is true, it means we have 1 doc and no roleblockers ingame.
But prplhz claimed to have been roleblocked.
@Mataza
How can we realtively safely assume we have no cop? - its been one night? - one "scan" pr night - if the cop made a scan on a townie last night - how would we know the cop doesnt exist? (or maybe he just shuts up until he has checked out more players (he should) :p
I also have a question for everybody, what exactly is the mafias roleblocker role if theres no detective/doctor?
Happy huntin!
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The roleblocker is in the game so mafia don´t know the exact setup.
It would be an unfair advantage if Mafia knew exactly which roles are in the game simply because they were gifted a role blocker.
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I assume no cop because no one gave off that particular vibe a cop has.
Someone said I do, but I can´t judge myself.
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Thank you
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Mataza, I trust your analytical skills, but no one should take for fact what you're assuming based on your 'vibe' sense.
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Not everyone has voted...just under 7 hours peoples.
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Alright
@Viscera
At this time last day, we only had 4 votes if we don't count your stefftastiq vote. I don't think you should worry too much. I'm gonna vote around 3-4 hours before deadline as I did day1 (and as I said I would do day1). This is in around 3-4 hours.
If I am lynched today and I flip green you should lynch Mataza on day3, no matter what kind of defense he puts up. After that I would look at hiro protagonist and nard, one of which will probably be the last scum. If I flip red then you will obviously be in a good spot.
I'll be happy to answer any questions but I'm not going to directly respond to any of Mataza's accusations unless someone else directly requests that I do.
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Not even a comment on "why leaders are bad for town" but your next post talks about controlling the town?
That´s a sudden change of behaviour for which you gave no reasoning.
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Alright since nobody else is asking any questions I'll respond to you anyway.
One controlling many is bad. Many controlling one is good. Everybody having each other under control is very good. That's how I see it. You even highlighted it in your post:
While he might not be scum this town has him very much under control.
The keyword here being "town". Town is many. Town controlling someone is good.
I also gotta say I find it really weird that DeepBlue2 is voting for me out of the blue and threatening Mataza that if I turn out to be green he will go after him. If I am lynched and DeepBlue2 does not throw his vote at Mataza one hour into day3 it is going to be very suspicious. I also think that it is weird that DeepBlue2 does not care the slightest about my defense he just rushes into voting for me.
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The way I see it, you still have to bring something forward.
You talk about things bad a lot, but up til now you never talked about something being good.
You are not even trying.
And the only reason to not try is because anything good for town is bad for you.
Viscera tries, Palmar tries, Karshe tried and even some of the less actives try.
You didn´t.
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@Mataza
As I said before I don't really want to answer questions from you. If anybody else feel like asking me anything I'll answer them of course.
Since we're around though I think that we should consider what happens if the other dude is lynched and he flips green. What do you think would be the best thing for town to do during night2 and day3 if I'm lynched and I flip green?
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EPT
