EPTI think the infiltrator shouldn't be allowed into his own home QT, and should have some mechanic for sending messages home, like he's some deep cover spy kind of guy. Or else it might be too... claim-ey.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think the infiltrator shouldn't be allowed into his own home QT, and should have some mechanic for sending messages home, like he's some deep cover spy kind of guy. Or else it might be too... claim-ey. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On August 07 2012 04:06 ghost_403 wrote: Letting the other team know who is on the other scum team seems horribly imbalanced to me. I haven't played any multifactional games (except maybe aperture), so I'm interested to hear what other people have to say about this setup. Both scum teams have this "advantage". But the teams don't know who's on their team. Example role PM: You're on Scum A, flavor blah blah etc. Your team includes: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 So, in this hypothetical scum team, let's say 3 and 6 off that list are actually on scum B as infiltrators into team A. They'd have a role PM for their real team, but the members of Scum A don't know which of the 7 listed are Scum B. Except the two infiltrators from scum A into scum B, but nobody on scum A or B knows which of the four people who see the other team's QT are actually on their team. I might not be doing an amazing job of explaining. Infiltrator PM: You're an infiltrator into Scum A from Scum B, so on and so forth. You win with Scum B Scum B includes 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (QT Link) Scum A includes 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 (QT Link) So, there's 4 people total who know who's ACTUALLY on each scum team. Everyone else has to try and figure it out within the QT, with both teams at cross purposes, infiltrators passing on relevant info or faking relevant info. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On August 07 2012 04:09 Blazinghand wrote: I guess the big issue is, if you're the infiltrator, and you're on scum B team and pretending to be on scum A team, wouldn't you be able to cross-check the two QTs and quickly find out who's really on each team? Then you'd just go back to your home QT and straight-up tell everyone who's on the other team, right? I think the infiltrator shouldn't be allowed into his own home QT, and should have some mechanic for sending messages home, like he's some deep cover spy kind of guy. Or else it might be too... claim-ey. No risk, because there's 2 people from each scum team who have this information. And nobody says they can't lie, slander each other, and try to manipulate the other team. Thus, two microcosm mafia games going on, one within each scum team, at the same time. Which of the four people telling you what's happening between the threads do you believe? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Then it's easy! Shoot one. If he's an infiltrator, shoot his buddy. If he's one of yours, shoot the other 2. It'll take 3 nights, but you can do it. Even easier, you can just order all 4 of them to claim scum in the thread. Since the loyal infiltrators have told you everything they know, you're fine! just have the town do your dirty work for you while you start shooting enemy scum. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
Also, claiming scum in the thread is dangerous, since, after the third claim, the fourth has no incentive to claim, and neither team will know which one survived. Meantime, if the two scum teams just start decimating eachother at the start, it's harder to reach their wincon in the end. I mean, bear in mind, if it even works, you're down 4 out of 10 scum, and whichever scum team outlasts the other scumteam once the bloodbath starts will have 1 KP and not much breathing room. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
So now ScumTeam A and ScumTeam B both kill the confirmed infiltrators. Then spend every subsequent night killing off the other scum team. Now you're down to the 2 unknown infiltrators and a lot of townies because the only ones who have died are the ones who fought and voted each other during the days. My point is: with each scum team knowing the full details of the other scumteam, outside of who the infiltrators are, it seems really OP for town because the two scum teams would spend an abnormal amount of time fighting amongst themselves. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Plus, town won't be able to instantly lynch all 4 scum, PLUS, even if the liars gave a different report than your loyalists, after only 1 night you'll know who was lying and who was telling the truth since it only takes 1 NK to figure it out. I really think ordering all 4 to claim after they give you the true report and the false report is optimal play for both scumteams. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
If they're not smart enough to try to play the game out somewhat and just kind of whittle eachother down, they're doomed. If the scum use smart tactics, instead of kamikaze tactics, the disproportionate scum numbers should balance things reasonably well. Particularly if each scumteam gets a medic to encourage trying to use their wits rather than a bruteforce solution... think that would help? | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Basically, whichever team gets behind first has very little way to "catch up". The medic could make it more interesting, though. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
4 days later, all 4 of the scum have been lynched, between the 2 mafia teams, 8 bullets have been fired, and none of them at the scum who are lined up to be lynched-- after the first night, each scumteam knows the exact composition of the other scumteam, by shooting to flip and confirm the loyalist report. As much as they'd like to shoot townies, both scumteams know each other, so they HAVE to shoot each other, since if you start shooting second, you lose. At the end of Night 3, the last unclaimed scums die shooting each other, unless one of them was unlucky enough to guess wrong about which 2 infiltrators were on his side-- then he dies alone. At the start of Day 4, there is 1 claimed scum left and 5 very shellshocked townies. And let's say one scumteam doesn't want to let their infiltrators claim. You can't even stop it! your infiltrators will be outed by the other 2! And if they don't oppose the 2 loyalist infiltrators, then the loyalists are unapposed and the enemy scumteam starts shooting you right away. You need to shoot back. The only way to do so is to get comprehensive reports from your own loyalists, but if they give YOU a report, the enemy infiltrators will tell the enemy scum which 2 they are, and bam, all 4 infilitrators are outed in both scum QTs. And then we're back to the mass roleclaims, the scum shooting each other, and the 5 townies and 1 claimed scum on D4. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
Especially if you publicly had a fair number of townie vets in the setup. Say, a third of the town as vets, would make for a high risk of creating confirmed townies if they didn't double down on shots and try to lynch townies. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
So this is what the godfather does. He flips a coin, and goes with one set of infiltrators (remember that his own infiltrators are also lying to his enemy godfather in the same way), shooting at a target they disagree with the other set of infiltrators on. If his shot goes bad in the night, and strikes a VT OR a Vet or really anything that's not enemy scum, ah well, game over, he loses (unless his opponent makes the same mistake). After this night, though, it is confirmed which infiltrators are on which team. It is optimal for both mafia godfathers to use the NK to confirm their infiltrators intelligence, see? So then, by Day 4, the only scum left alive are infiltrators, and since it's not worth it to shoot them, you forced them to scumclaim in thread during Day 1 to sort them out via the town. 1 confirmed scum, 3-5 townies. party time. EDIT: Actually, a mafia medic might hugely change this. There should probably be a town vigi too to discourage the roleclaiming. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
Optimal play is the knife's edge. Or, they could do NK voting in each thread, instead of having a GF submit it, which would work better anyways in case the GF dies early. That would also promote a measure of backstabbing, sneaking around, and subtlety. Then, the infiltrators would be trying to get the enemy infiltrators shot, especially if each team's infiltrators were masoned with eachother. Uhm, that last bit meaning, Scum A infiltrators 1 and 2 are masoned, and Scum B infiltrators 1 and 2 are masoned. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 07 2012 05:02 JingleHell wrote: So, you're saying that the scum's "best" strategy is a guaranteed loss? I call that piss-poor planning by scum. Optimal play is the knife's edge. It's not piss-poor planning by scum, it's piss-poor planning by the designer if the game starts with that setup. But yeah, it's the tragedy of the commons. It's really just a bad setup if you have it in exactly the fashion it was laid out earlier. Like, doing anything but this strategy just causes you to lose earlier, because amazingly it's a 5 town 10 scum setup that scum actually can't win. There's no play which is superior to the terrible bad strategy I outlined, because the setup with 4 players who are in both QTs without any way to mitigate their tattling is unbalanced. There's no better option. You do, however, have the option of shooting townies instead of scum, in which case, you still lose, but the other scumteam wins instead of the town. yay! On August 07 2012 05:02 JingleHell wrote: Or, they could do NK voting in each thread, instead of having a GF submit it, which would work better anyways in case the GF dies early. That would also promote a measure of backstabbing, sneaking around, and subtlety. Then, the infiltrators would be trying to get the enemy infiltrators shot, especially if each team's infiltrators were masoned with eachother. Uhm, that last bit meaning, Scum A infiltrators 1 and 2 are masoned, and Scum B infiltrators 1 and 2 are masoned. I think the easiest solution is to limit each team's infiltrator's abilities to communice back with their home team. Scum A's infiltrators can only speak in the B quicktopic, and send limited messages back to Scum A team. This way, it's not obvious to Scum B's infiltrators in the Scum A QT who the spies are, and it's a mole vs mole game kind of like The Departed. much cooler. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
So assuming that change took place, would a setup of 15 town with say 4 medics or vets, and a detective, and one scum medic per team, one godfather per team, with the balance in goons/infiltrators, sound balanced? Also, how heavily do you restrict communication? Are infiltrator messages sent through as is to allow breadcrumbs and hidden messages, or do they get paraphrased and proofread by the host? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
In terms of restricting communication, I remember in Sleeper Cell and Bureaucracy there were both PMs (with restrictions) routed via the host/co-hosts. Overall it worked pretty well in terms of slowing down certain kinds of communication . | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
The Setup This is a semi-open setup. You will know which roles may appear in the game but not the number. Well, there is at least one vanilla townie. But that's all you know. Role PMs: Patriot: You are a Patriot! The imperialists are trying to take over your beautiful country, and it's up to you to stop them. The only tools you have at your disposal is your wits and your votes. Use them well! Secret Police: You are a Secret Policeman! Every night, you may investigate a single player to determine if they are Innocent or Guilty. You are guaranteed to be sane. However, each mafia faction may, once per game, bribe you, which means that all your checks that night will return innocent. Neither you, nor the other mafia faction, will be informed if you have been bribed. Doctor: You are a Doctor! Every night, you may check in on a player, and administer medical aid if necessary. You block one KP. Neither you nor your target are notified of a successful save. Special Forces: You are a Special Forces Officer! Either once or twice per game, you may take justice into your own hands and shoot another player in the game. If you are roleblocked, your bullet is refunded. If the target is medic'd, your bullet is gone. Moscow State/Harvard Alumni: You are an Alumnus. You and your fellow alumni graduated from one of two universities--Harvard and Moscow State. You will share a QT with another two Alumni where you can communicate outside of the main thread. If your group is identified as Harvard Alumni, there will be a chance someone in the group is CIA, if your group is from Moscow State, there will be a chance someone in the group is KGB. If you are rolechecked, you will only show up as an alumnus, with no indication of which University you are from, unless you are scum, in which case you will show up as scum. Alumni are guaranteed not to be blue. Mafia There are two factions of scum in this game, the CIA and the KGB. Each faction will have two regular agents, as well as two unique power roles. Agent: You are an Agent! You and your fellow operatives came to Birindi to stage a coup. You win when you outnumber the town AND the other intelligence network, or nothing can stop this from happening. CIA Power Roles Tactical Air Controller: You are a Tactical Air Controller! You've got the fingers of God. Or more specifically, a flight of F-111 Aardvarks on call. One night per game, you may plant a targeting beacon by someone's house, bringing down over 80,000 pounds of precision guided ordnance and guaranteeing an unblockable kill on him/her and whichever unfortunate soul(s) visiting that night. Your action will count as a night visit. If you are roleblocked, your targeting beacon will be refunded. Station Chief/Eyes in the Sky: You are a Station Chief! You're a fine, upstanding citizen of Birindi who's been operating in deep cover for a while, and amassed quite an amount of respectability. As such, the CIA has given you the responsibility of leading their efforts in the region. In addition to showing up as town to any rolechecks, you also gain access to the Keyhole spy satellites, allowing you to function as Eyes in the Sky, which means that twice per game, you may find out the targets of every single night action that night, as well as the type of action performed (mafia hit, medic block, cop investigation, vigi hit.) May not discover who initiated which action. This action will not count as a night visit on any of the discovered targets. KGB Power Roles Bomb Artist: You are a Bomb Artist! You've got the touch of death. Or more specifically, fourteen hundred grams of Semtex and a pressure plate you can hide under someone's front porch. Once per night, you may "set us up the bomb". If anyone pays a night visit to that individual, the bomb will detonate--an unblockable kill on that individual as well as the night visitor, and anyone else who visited that night. In the morning, the bomb returns to hand and you may booby-trap someone else or that same individual again. If you are nightkilled or lynched, the bomb will remain in place for an additional Day/Night cycle before the fuse decays and the bomb becomes inert. You only get one bomb--once it goes off, you will become exactly like a regular Agent. Resident Head/Honey Trap: You are a Resident Head! You're a fine, upstanding citizen of Birindi who's been operating in deep cover for a while, and amassed quite an amount of popularity. As such, the KGB has given you the responsibility of leading their efforts in the region. In addition to showing up as town to any rolechecks, you also run the local brothel, appropriately named the Honey Trap. Six times per game, you may roleblock an individual. Said individual will not be able to perform their night powers (this includes the Tactical Air Controller.) You may roleblock up to three individuals per night. Said roleblocks will not count as night visits. Q&A
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
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