EPTKingmaker - A New Game
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The main thing we should do is establish a pro-town atmosphere. I say that the town should decide what the king does. This way if the kingmaker accidentally makes the assassins the king, they will not be able to access the kingmaker's killpower without exposing themselves. To do this, we should all have a lynching system, sort of like Callers game where we declared who we were going to start voting for. Say we want to lynch infun, we should type ##King: Infun and the king will kill the person with the most amounts of votes. Inaddition, we don't just have to vote to kill someone, we can always use the relics. However I don't like the relics. Excalibur is a random lynch, and doesn't help much. The first day's lynch should be used on scummy/inactive people (more on this later). Merlin is unreliable, but he could be used as an abstain vote, which can be pretty useful by itself. But if we decide to use the relics, we should type ##King: Merlin | ||
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A big problem in every mafia game is inactivity. I don't want another drag_ being able to squeak by with barely any posts. We should immediately show it is not okay to be inactive. Inactive players hurt the town as they waste lynches down the road as the town will need to try to separate the mafia from the inactives. We should therefore lynch an inactive day one. This will force the assassins to discuss and not be able to turtle, increasing the chance they will slip up. The other options are to A) Lynch a scummy person. Take a look at Team Micro Mafia II, they found both scums day 1 B) Use Merlin. This would be like an abstain. If there are no inactives and no one is scummy, it's a good idea to use Merlin C) Use Excalibur. This is just random. I feel this is a waste of an action. We should focus on building a good town environment. | ||
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On November 09 2010 11:50 Pandain wrote: Alright, here's some of my thoughts right now. Standards for a King: 1.King should not lynch anyone before 24 hours. Don't be impulsive, don't be stupid. Obviously you should in fact wait until last moment possible(but don't forget :p.) There's nothing worse I can imagine than having a king execute someone at the first second. :/ 2.Calling/executing. Also should not be used,especially right now. I'm thinking we could save this towards late game. For example, if there's 2 town and one scum left, king can easily just execute both of them and win the game. With only 9 people, this isn't too impossible either. Don't be too rash. Follow the majority, at least as a guideline. We should probably decide as a group when to use call/execute. Which reminds me: Ace, does using execute AND Use: Excalibur mean you can get two kills in one day? Firstly, the king should not have any autonomy at all. The town should decide what the king does. Secondly, I don't think you understand what the king does. The king can only kill one person each round. He basically decides the lynch (like the mayor) Thirdly, follow the majority as a rule. This way we can tell if the assassin is the king and just using his role to get an extra KP | ||
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On November 09 2010 11:55 Pandain wrote: I disagree, actually. I totally agree that he should follow the town, but sometimes you have to follow your gut. For the early days I highly agree that he should do what the town says, but just leaving that up to the town increases the possibility for scum to manipulate the whole thing. Now, if a king just does whatever he wants, is that suscipcious? Of course! However, leaving him a bit of room is a good thing imo. Following your gut is an easy way for the Assassin to gain KP. It's easy for an assassin to go against the town and execute a townie because it 'went against his gut'. We would have no read on the king. Think of it this way. Your way: Townie is king and goes against his gut: High chance of killing town Assassin is king: Easy extra KP There is no benefit besides an easier job for the Assassin Your afraid of the scum manipulating the results. This is public, so therefore if they start messing around, we'll be able to tell. However, if the scum is the king and manipulates the results, it's private, we won't be able to tell. Lastly, remember. we only have 2 mislynches until lylo. We cannot let the scum to gain a hold of any of our lynchs | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:00 Pandain wrote: What do you mean, if the king manipulates the results? From what I understand, he does every single one of his actions in thread. Lets say the town's votes to kill Infun. But suddenly the king decides to kill deconduo instead. The king claims that he had a 'gut feeling', or some other reasoning. This would be indistinguishable from a assassin kill. I understand maybe deconduo could be a mafia. However, the fact that if we allow any lax in this rule means that it's a free hit for the scum. Allowing scum to get a free kill is far worse than a small chance of maybe hitting a scum | ||
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Remember, a rouge king is a loss of a lynch. | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:09 orgolove wrote: Another thing to note is the setup. As Ace did not reveal the number of each roles, we have to figure it out ourselves. Compared to the standard setups, there's 2 disadvantages to the town: 1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player. That's why you look to my idea about the king following the town's decision. That way even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#27 2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge. The biggest problem with no detective is that there is no easy way to check the alignment of inactives. This is why on the first day we should lynch an inactive. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#30 | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:22 orgolove wrote: I do agree with the king following the majority. There's absolutely no reason we should not do that. It really brings to question why DrH, who's usually a good player, is against this. Really brings a FoS on him. That's not gonna work. -_- You have to remember that an assassin king is an automatic 2KP that can be bought at the cost of 1 life. In the case where there's 5 players left (end of night 2), an Assassin king can just kill a town immediately, then kill the next town at night, gaining an automatic win. Above all else it is extremely important for the kingmaker to not choose a red king. Ah yes of course, the lylo situation. There's not much that can be done anyways. However do you agree that this would work outside of lylo? It defiantly would help day1 and day2 Also, all townies. Make sure you read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475 | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:32 BrownBear wrote: Sup, Pandain. So for right now, we are just waiting for someone to be all "yo sup, I'm the king for today"? We are discussing day 1 kill, and also the plan for what the king should do. | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:36 BrownBear wrote: Well, I'm looking at the "lynch an inactive" plan, and I don't really think it's that smart, given that we especially don't want to get anywhere near LYLO. I think we really should be trying to drop an Assassin right now: it's totally doable this stage in the game, and if we fall into the "hurr durr lets just lynch inactive" trap TL town usually falls into, it's going to bite us in the ass. Inactives are very bad for the town. In practically every game, an inactive is either a) Mafia, or b) a townie that just gets lynched. If we're going to use a lynch, it should be day 1. Although I'm all for going after an Assassin, we should first establish that being inactive is not okay. | ||
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Just a thought. Remember, the hero can claim if needed. This is crucial as the hero could be a good counter to an assassin king, and could make sure a townie king does not hit him. (The actual situation is going to be a bit more complex, but we should talk about that when it actually happens) | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:43 BrownBear wrote: Well, obviously, but I'm too used to seeing a bunch of people vote on an inactive, go AFK for the rest of the cycle, and then the poor guy dies, even if he shows up. I'm just saying, king should be using his judgement here. If town wants to kill a dude "for being inactive" but the dude has posted, should king go ahead and kill the dude? Not unless the king thinks he's actually an assassin, or the king himself is an assassin. Part of the awesome part of having a King is that the king reveals a lot about HIS role by how he acts. If we force him to be our puppet, that doesn't tell us much at all. Giving the kings a bit more leeway might actually make an Assassin-King work in our favor - we thrust him into the spotlight, make him more likely to screw up, and thus stand a better chance of catching him. I'm in favor of ADVISING the king, but not forcing him to follow our orders. Gives us more to work with. Also, whoever is the king should be held to a VERY HIGH standard of activity, for the same reason: we know they're king, but we want to know as much more about them as we can. Remember though, we can easily switch to the Merlin (abstain), so if the inactive shows up and everyone is contributing, we can easily not lynch anyone. The problem is that in your situation, that mostly happens if the town HAS TO kill someone. It would be great if we had 5 days of lynches to be able to check out how a king acts, and make sure that the king isn't an assassin. However, remember, we only will have three lynches. First day it's going to be hard to see what the king does. Second day, what if the king goes against the grain and kills someone? It should be easy to pick out a random townie. Third day, we're unlucky and king is an assassin. GG. As for holding to him to a high level activity. I agree with that, but in order to pull that off, we need to make sure he claims at the start of the day. I see no reason why the king should not claim | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:47 BrownBear wrote: I think he wants you to start doing more than just pressure lynching - propose ideas, debate strategy, that kind of thing. Basically, do what others are doing. ^This Pandain. Could you address the issue of forcing a 'puppet king', and day 1 inactive lynch? Thanks | ||
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On November 09 2010 12:52 BrownBear wrote: Hmm... more ideas. So the Kingmaker knows who he chose as King. Obviously, we all want the king to claim in thread. Thus, stands to reason that a king who doesn't claim until he executes is basically scum. I'm trying to think if there's any merit to the Kingmaker claiming and posting who he chose as king in order to force the king out... obviously though, an Assassin King can delay with Excalibur/Merlin. Actually, question - does a king using Merlin/Excalibur mean he remains king next cycle, or is a new king chosen? If the kingmaker reveals himself, he just gets killed by the mafia. And anyways, we should just expect the king to claim in thread. New king is chosen always btw | ||
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Firstly, we need a united town. We need some sort of policy regarding the kings. If we're going to decide to let the king lynch people independently, we cannot make the argument later that 'you should have followed majority'. At the same time, if we force the king to follow majority, the must hold him accountable On November 09 2010 16:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I agree. The king should not roleclaim. This way the mafia can not manipulate the king directly and he can participate in the town discussion without being pushed in a direction intentionally. And we fear this because the assassins have sercretz mind control abilities </sarcasm> You are saying that 1) The king is smart enough to make his own decisions. and 2) The king is too easily influenced. Please clarify | ||
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On November 09 2010 13:30 Coagulation wrote: so whos king? oh and bite me pandain. On November 09 2010 16:34 Coagulation wrote: the only ones that really "need to find out what the king is thinking" are the assassins. Coagulation, could you please be a bit more active and join the discussion? Thanks Anyways, we should now move discuss whether or not we should use Merlin I am against using Merlin, as it is a waste of a lynch. Remember, lylo is not delayed when we use Merlin. | ||
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On November 09 2010 19:29 CubEdIn wrote: Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. I'm sorry, but the king is a cool role. Why do we have to spoil it? It's the player's chance. IF there's a 5-4 vote split, (king's vote is on the 4) the king can lynch whoever he wants, no? That's fair, the imbalance is not that big. If there's a 5-3 vote split (assuming one player died), then the king has one of those 3 votes. So in fact, it's just a 5-2 vote split (not counting king's vote), so the imbalance is fairly obvious. King has the option of going with the majority, or taking a huge risk and killing the "2-vote". If the 2-vote turns blue, then the king will have a lot to explain for, and it won't be an easy way out. Also, the other 2 voters will be in trouble. So no, given the fact that there are only 9 players, I don't think there's any way for the king to explain un-town-like moves. I fail to imagine a scenario where the king could justify a "gut feeling" blue kill, unless the votes are actually quite close (note the 5-4 split I was talking about earlier). Remember, it is quiet easy to state a few reasons why someone is probably scum. In every single game, scum are accused, town are accused. Take this post in the Micro Game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161868¤tpage=8#145 Each are reasons why the king could have killed someone. If we allow the king to go against majority, all that's going to happen is the assassins are going to be able to crowned, write up an analysis against a random player. Post the analysis and get the town to waste a lynch. I don't buy the 'the king should have fun' argument. Remember, the problem is that the King is a very big danger and hold lots of power. Play to win, not to 'roleplay' | ||
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On November 10 2010 02:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Unless the king is Coagulation I think he should be allowed to scumhunt on his own. most of the players in this game are decent or good. No I'm not saying the assassins have secretz mind control. But if both get active, they can manipulate the shit out of the town. If they know the king then they can push him directly and put pressure on him directly to do what they want to do. If they don't the king, then they can't. They have to focus manipulation on the town as a whole which is much more difficult. Honestly just one good scum poster can totally change the direction of a bandwagon. Early game bandwagons are very often directed by scum when the town has no real viable scumtargets, that's why I think the king should act somewhat independently. If the town doesn't know the king, it doesn't bust their balls at all. At the end of the day, the king is held accountable for what he does and he must reveal himself eventually. This is assuming that the king decides to go with his 'gut decision'. The king being influenced wouldn't be an issue if he is following the vote of the majority. This problem only arises if we allow an independent king. I don't understand what you mean by Early Game bandwagons. Sure, if this was micro mafia iv where people ran around not knowing what to do. But this town is pretty experienced. We are talking about people with multiple games underneath their belt. People aren't going to jump on a bandwagon because it looks cool. Lastly, you forget the town. We can stop manipulations. In fact, public discussion is best because it show manipulations and brings light to the mafia. In games where not much discussion occurs, mafia easily lay back and watch the town turn on themselves. Let's look at your plan. The king should stay hidden, and 1 hour from the end, pop up, and kill someone because 'he thought he was scummy'. This is extremely mafia favored. To me, all it seems like what you are doing is trying to create a mafia favored environment where the town has no control over the lynches This is the big issue. Making sure the town has control over the lynches Town KP is Always Always Always better than mafia KP | ||
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On November 10 2010 03:07 CubEdIn wrote: Fair enough. You don't have to explain the easy bandwagons, as I said, I got raped for simply counter-attacking the guy who attacked me in the Assassin game. Nobody even bothered to read my posts and see if they made any sense from a Bodyguard point of view. But I digress. However, the king is only a big danger if he's on his own. There is NO way that a king who will go against the majority will not be held accountable. I think that it's very well worth having the king go totally against town and kill a blue if in return he will get killed day 2 and flip red. So no, I don't think it's very easy for someone to get away with killing whoever they want, and bandwagons can be started by anyone, king doesn't have much to do with that. At the very least king should have one extra vote or something. You are only judging from the perspective of being a townie, but what if there's a king who is really sure (based on a gut feeling) that someone is an assassin? What will he do? He might even invoke Merlin or do silly things like that just out of frustration of not being listened to by the town. Either way, I'll go with any decision, but forcing king to be normal townie will probably cause more bad than it does good. Just my two cents. Exactly. The issue I'm seeking to prevent is what if the king goes against majority. If we have no definitive statement, there will be no way to tell if a king is scum or town. But I see your point about a frustrated townie. Although I usually would say "suck it up and do what's best". I just thought of this. New thought How about this. The king can announce, at least 24 hours beforehand who he is going to lynch. And then he must defend his lynch and reasoning, and satisfy the town, or go with the majority opinion. I am okay with this, as it's a lot more transparent, and we can easily tell if the king is trying to find scum, or if the king is just trying to make a flimsy case against someone. | ||
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On November 10 2010 03:27 Amber[LighT] wrote: I am on board with this idea. The King could probably give a list of 2 people that should be up for a lynch. This might encourage more discussion. By putting on player under the radar you're going to have 1 player vs. the town. No one is going to step up and defend someone unknowingly. Giving the King the task of identifying and examining 2 players means that his analytical reasoning should remain constant, and it gives the town more leeway. I imagine it to be more like. 1 player vs. the king. Basically its a test to see how well the king's reasoning works. If the king's reasoning sucks and is just BS, the king will have to switch targets. This should solve the problem with defense, as people are pretty prone to attacking arguments. The only problem with putting up a list of two people, is the mafia could just put up a list of 2 townies. One player means we can always switch to a second choice if needed. I could only imagine an assassin King coming up with some BS as to why candidate X should be lynched, and the town just idly agrees while candidate X is screaming at the other players that they aren't being reasonable. This is where the King should absolve his power. When it comes to discussion, he should remember that he is still just another townie. I don't think this is going to be a problem, especially considering how active this game is currently. I will commit to analyzing arguments. And I expects others to do the same When should the King announce his presence? Right at the start of day? Wait 24 hours after each day post? So here are what I believe are acceptable options for the king. Roleclaimed King The King Roleclaims ASAP, and then the town discusses who to lynch. The King then will execute whoever has the most vote, with the king's vote counting as 1.5 votes (to break ties). This is if the King has not found a scum yet, or is not confident in his own abilities. Judgment king King Roleclaims Before 24 hours are up. He then declares who he is going to execute (make sure you don't accidentally execute them), and has a long post with all his reasoning. The town will then discuss this and the king will defend his arguments. If the kings arguments hold up. He can proceed to lynch. If the kings arguments fail, he can either 1) Find someone else to attack, or 2) Go with town majority opinion of who to lynch (The town can decide to use a relic) | ||
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On November 10 2010 03:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: no it's not about taking town control away from the lynches listening to the "town" 9 times out of 10 is listening to the mafia. the king should not be a robot that does whatever the "town" says, he should of course seriously consider the town discussion but do you really think the assassins won't manipulate the shit out of bandwagons? the whole point of the king is to take that away from scum if we just have the king do whatever the town says, we're handing the mafia the power to control our lynches not the opposite What do you think about the new idea? That should help with the 'manipulating bandwagons'. Secondly, you forget about town defense against scum. We can see how these manipulations are working, and scum hunt from these manipulations. Lastly, the king will be drawing his decisions from the thread, who says the scum isn't manipulating the thread? You propose to 'remove scum manipulations' however it will not work You have consistently ignored the possibility of an assassin king. What is your solution? Throw in the hat and call it a game? I'm not doing that | ||
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Coagulation. If your town, please start giving input on the few ideas that have been presented. I want to hear your opinion on 1) Lynching inactives http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#30 2) Old plan, should the king be forced to follow the town's opinion? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=2#27 3) New plan, do you agree? Disagree? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304¤tpage=6#101 In fact, it would be best if everyone made sure they have addressed, or will address these three issues | ||
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On November 10 2010 05:11 Pandain wrote: Are we not going to use merlin then? I mean, if we're not sure at all, doesn't 'merlin give us the best chance? Of course, at the very least, wait for him to respond. Merlin just brings us close to lylo. Remember the town only can have 2 mislynches before lylo. If we use the merlin, we can only have 1 mislynch before lylo. | ||
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On November 10 2010 05:58 Pandain wrote: 1.You could wait for him to talk for one... 2.It's not just that about coag, by waiting longer we can have more time, having more people talk. More information=good. @Lsb: How does merlin affect the # of mislynches? Lets assume that no assassins get killed. Day 1: 7-2 Night 1: 6-2 Day 2: 5-2 Night 2: 4-2 Day 3: 3-2 LYLO Lets say we use merlin Day 1: 7-2 Merlin! Night 1: 7-2 Day 2: 6-2 Night 2: 5-2 Day 3: 4-2 LYLO | ||
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On November 10 2010 07:35 Coagulation wrote: generally from what i have seen so far lynching inactives only gets a town role killed. i dont think lynching an inactive is the way to go in any mafia game and i have never ever used it as a reason. if your lynching inactives you might as well just lynch the most active. The difference is that an inactive does not help the town in away way shape or form. Mafia have no incentive to hit an inactive person as they are essentially sheep. Inactive people will cause us to waste a lynch later on the road. I would say that inactive players are anti-town due to the problem with separating the wolves from the sheep. no the king needs to vote who he feels he personally needs to vote. this is the best aspect of the game that puts it in towns favor. a vote outside the influince of the scums grasp is. What if the scum is the king? Check back through the thread, I made some points on this already I dont think the king should be forced to role claim. i think it only gives the scum extra information that they can use when there is absolutely no reason at all that town needs to know who the king is during a lynch debate. Again, please look at the 'what if the scum is king' argument. We need to make sure the king doesn't just do anything he wants. What extra information would the scum get once they know someone is king? | ||
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On November 10 2010 07:42 BrownBear wrote: influEnce. Not influInce. Jesus. I have to admit, though, LSB has been kinda making me wonder all game... he's not playing the way I've come to expect out of him. Not enough to make me say "YO LETS KILL DIS MOTHAFUCKA" but enough to worry about him. A lot. On November 09 2010 11:56 LSB wrote: Incase you haven't noticed. I'm going to try to cut my spammyness, I want to see how this will go Basically I'm going to try to emulate Incog <3 | ||
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On November 10 2010 07:47 Coagulation wrote: if scum is king then there is nothing we can do about making his decision help town anyway regardless. we will see who he is after the lynch right? at that point he would probably be in alot of trouble if he didnt use his head and play pro town. its a double edged sword but i think the benefits outweigh the cons. Basically your saying if the king lynches a green, he's probably scum and should be executed the day after? | ||
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Either 1) Contribute meaningfully to the discussion. This means not rehashing old points. And possibly coming up with new ideas or plans. 2) Scumhunt | ||
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On November 10 2010 07:55 Coagulation wrote: nonono not at all. theres a difference between lynching a green on accident that had scummy behaviors and just lynching a green randomly who was clearly town roled On November 10 2010 02:59 LSB wrote: Remember, it is quiet easy to state a few reasons why someone is probably scum. In every single game, scum are accused, town are accused. Take this post in the Micro Game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161868¤tpage=8#145 Each are reasons why the king could have killed someone. If we allow the king to go against majority, all that's going to happen is the assassins are going to be able to crowned, write up an analysis against a random player. Post the analysis and get the town to waste a lynch. I don't buy the 'the king should have fun' argument. Remember, the problem is that the King is a very big danger and hold lots of power. Play to win, not to 'roleplay' | ||
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orgolove Pandain Hesmyrr Amber[Light] What do you think of Coagulation? | ||
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On November 11 2010 11:22 BrownBear wrote: It's more of a meta-thing, but I feel like he's posting out of character, and a lot of his posts just rehash stuff already said, ask other people for their opinion, or correct other people, rather than add new content. He could be a mafia flying under the radar, or I could just be paranoid. Either way, I'll look at his posts later. Tired now. Very interesting. I understand the posting out of character. But can you please tell me about this 'rehashing'? Or flying under the radar? | ||
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[b]Execute: Coagulation[/b] | ||
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On November 12 2010 01:56 BrownBear wrote: Mk, well, night discussion was kind of a wash... Maybe you could look at my posts? I know that you said that you were going to do so. | ||
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On November 12 2010 22:55 Amber[LighT] wrote: Idk don't discount Orgolove just yet. Just because DrH flipped doesn't guarantee anything. It would seem that the assassins went for a dead-end route. They picked a target that wouldn't lead back to any mafia connections. Think about the people who targeted who on Day 1. Think of everyone who put pressure on Coag. Chances are one of the people in that list is mafia. DrH did more-or-less enhance the lynching but the chances of the assassins backing that decision were probably pretty high. I think Orgolove is my biggest suspect since he was the only person that threw out a blank accusation yesterday (against me). The pressure wasn't pushed after DrH stepped up and named his lynch, so I'm a bit suspicious of this. I'd like to hear more from BrownBear & Hesmyrr since they're playing on the fairly quiet side. Only thing about Orgolove is just right before the day post, he decided to make a (kindof sucky) accusation against DoctorH. And I don't think the mafia is dumb enough to attack someone who they are going to kill. However, we can't discount the fact that possibly Orgo was looking for anti-Doc sentiment in the town | ||
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Brownbear makes three significant points in the game. 1) Brownbear dodges the main debate He argues against lynching inactives + Show Spoiler + On November 09 2010 12:36 BrownBear wrote: Well, I'm looking at the "lynch an inactive" plan, and I don't really think it's that smart, given that we especially don't want to get anywhere near LYLO. I think we really should be trying to drop an Assassin right now: it's totally doable this stage in the game, and if we fall into the "hurr durr lets just lynch inactive" trap TL town usually falls into, it's going to bite us in the ass. On November 09 2010 12:43 BrownBear wrote: Well, obviously, but I'm too used to seeing a bunch of people vote on an inactive, go AFK for the rest of the cycle, and then the poor guy dies, even if he shows up. I'm just saying, king should be using his judgement here. If town wants to kill a dude "for being inactive" but the dude has posted, should king go ahead and kill the dude? Not unless the king thinks he's actually an assassin, or the king himself is an assassin. Part of the awesome part of having a King is that the king reveals a lot about HIS role by how he acts. If we force him to be our puppet, that doesn't tell us much at all. Giving the kings a bit more leeway might actually make an Assassin-King work in our favor - we thrust him into the spotlight, make him more likely to screw up, and thus stand a better chance of catching him. I'm in favor of ADVISING the king, but not forcing him to follow our orders. Gives us more to work with. Also, whoever is the king should be held to a VERY HIGH standard of activity, for the same reason: we know they're king, but we want to know as much more about them as we can. Although this isn't necessarily pro-town or anti-town, its more of an attempt to lurk and try to get some easy posts in. The inactive debate has happened countless times before and brownbear easily could pull arguments without actually contributing to the town. Now, if this was the only debate at the time, I wouldn't worry. But the issue was whether or not the king should claim and follow the majority. This is pretty crucial as the mafia defiantly would want to go against the plan. And brownbear is absent from the debate 2) Contradicts himself in order to seem better Slightly against the Coag lynch + Show Spoiler + On November 10 2010 06:58 BrownBear wrote: Because we don't want to lynch based off of JUST being inactive and bad? ----- Player 1: "Hey, Player 2 is inactive and terrible. I'm king. I'm going to kill him before the end of the day because of this." Players 3-9: "Well, Player 2 is inactive and bad. I guess I don't have any problems with killing him..." Player 1: "Awesome! EXECUTE PLAYER 2!!!" Player 2 flips green Player 1: "Well, shit. At least he was inactive and bad. Now, lets look at the posts today and analyze... wait... fuck." ----- That shit ain't gonna fly here. If no better option exists at or near the end of the day, go ahead and lynch Coag, but under no circumstances should you be executing people until the last possible minute. If anyone turns this into Bang Bang Mafia I will make it my personal goal to get them executed as soon as possible. On November 10 2010 07:07 BrownBear wrote: Coag's first post (of 2) this game. The "bite me Pandain" is in reference to Pandain trying to pressure-vote him. Coag's second post (of 2). This is kind of just blatantly wrong. Town absolutely needs to figure out what the king's thinking and logic is. Kingmaker is not infallible, an Assassin-King could absolutely be chosen, and it's town's duty to not only advise the king on a scummy player to lynch, but also attempt to figure out the King's role. If the king is acting scummy/not agreeing with town/being evasive/executing without fully discussing why or explaining himself... chances are he's got something to hide. The thing I can't tell here is whether this is Coag deliberately trying to mislead town, or whether it's just Coag being an idiot. Analysis is hard when the player doesn't give you anything to analyze. On November 10 2010 07:54 BrownBear wrote: Are you kidding? If we scumhunt properly, we can get a scum king to work for us, or out himself as scum as well. It's a win-win situation. Firstly, Brownbear started yelling at Coag for his anti-town analysis, he was pretty much anti Coag for a while. And this post On November 11 2010 11:09 BrownBear wrote: I don't think Coag is the new Bill Murray... I think we're too focused on him honestly. I'd have him as a execute-if-we-have-no-better-options candidate. Honestly, I'd go with Hesmyrr or LSB over Coag. This is a slight defense of Coag. He's saying that he doesn't want Coag lynched. This is even after Brownbear flamed Coag for anti-town ideas. And lets take a look at who he wants lynched. Hesmyrr- Hesmyrr has been inactive. Brownbear is supposedly against lynching inactives LSB- more on this later, but Brownbear just makes a random accusation and then disappears, not stating why. All this post is so that he can buy some kudos points when coag flips blue. This wishy washy view is to slightly influence the town in the direction he wants. 3) He makes a random accusation with no weight He accuses me, for no apparent reason + Show Spoiler + On November 11 2010 11:09 BrownBear wrote: I don't think Coag is the new Bill Murray... I think we're too focused on him honestly. I'd have him as a execute-if-we-have-no-better-options candidate. Honestly, I'd go with Hesmyrr or LSB over Coag. I then ask him why, repeadily. No response. On November 11 2010 11:37 LSB wrote: Very interesting. I understand the posting out of character. But can you please tell me about this 'rehashing'? Or flying under the radar? On November 12 2010 02:00 LSB wrote: Maybe you could look at my posts? I know that you said that you were going to do so. Its a slip up that he said, "I feel that LSB is mafia." At the time, he was just looking for someone to accuse and say that they are mafia. I did this (as mafia) back in TMMM, when I said that "Oh, Southrawer/Divinek is mafia". I couldn't back up my claim and that was a great scumtell. Brownbear, can you black up your claim? | ||
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Because in a nutshell that's all you said. Speaking of while. Don't let Brownbear be unnoticed. He have been dodging all day and hasn't be responding or contributing at all ##VOTE: Brownbear | ||
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On November 14 2010 06:34 BrownBear wrote: woops, did not mean to hit post there. my bad. Let me flesh out my point... So far, I don't see a logical reason to kill Amber. However, there's some fun little gems... And then 2 posts later... And currently, LSB has completely ignored, to the point where he hasn't even acknowledged, the bandwagon forming on Amber so that he can continue to dump suspicion on me. There are connections, they're actually pretty obvious. Note, LSB, I never actually said you were red. I said you have given me a bad vibe all game. It's hard to throw up hard analysis based on gut feelings, because falling into that trap is a bad way to play the game. A couple of your posts... This is not a very good argument for lynching an inactive. This is a game of 9 people, where we really cannot afford to slip up much at all, so under no circumstances should we be just "lynching an inactive because we have nothing better to do" we should be finding something better to do. Let's be honest, it's a pretty poor argument, but you say it in such certain terms. Generally, the people I've seen going "This is what we should do" about stupid shit are more likely than not to be mafia trying to mislead town. So, I never FoS'd you or said "HEY GUYS LSB IS RED" I just said you were giving me a bad feeling. And now you're connected (kinda tenuously, but still) to Amber, who's been coming under some hard suspicion. It doesn't really add up to me. In case you haven't noticed, my case against you Brownbear began when I was wondering why you suspected me. It didn't just began because Amber[Light] asked me to nicely. Also, Brownbear did not directly address points 2 and 3. (He just has an excuse for point number one, saying that he was inactive). Instead he just resorted to attacking me. However, his argument is increadibly flawed. Secondly, it would be one thing to suggest lynching an inactive on the first day, but another thing to push for lynching an inactive. Brownbear completely ignored this post. On November 10 2010 02:52 LSB wrote: As for lynching inactives, Coagulation is the only 'inactive' left, and based on his recent play, he's not the type to suddenly afk on the town. Coagulation, could you please be a bit more active and join the discussion? Thanks Anyways, we should now move discuss whether or not we should use Merlin I am against using Merlin, as it is a waste of a lynch. Remember, lylo is not delayed when we use Merlin. I said that there we no inactive left. And indeed the reason why I supported the Coag lynch was not because of his inactivity (He was quiet active under pressure). But because his answers to my questions were not satisfactory | ||
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Just checking if this is OMGYS | ||
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Kill Brownbear first tomorrow guys. | ||
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On November 14 2010 15:35 Hesmyrr wrote: ##Vote: Amber[Light] execute: Amber[Light] Sorry for not waiting CubEdin's vote but really need to sleep. Almost 4 AM already =/ I apologize if I have made a wrong decision. LSB's arguments were definitely the most persuasive one I have seen in this thread, but there were some things I just could not get over and I somewhat trust orgolove/less so on Pandain at moment. Still extremely hard decision. My drowsiness induces me to kill CubEdin for just sake of him going MIA but that's kinda unfair, considering I have yet to pay any attention to him at the moment... either way good night. Wondering why Hesmyrr didn't pay attention to my Brownbear stuff. On November 14 2010 12:00 Amber[LighT] wrote: I'm going to address your points as best as possible. I apologize for any discrepancies w/ regards to the language barrier. I understand not everyone speaks English first, so I will address what I can... The use of the relics: My thought when I read the description of the game and the various roles, even before Day 1 began, was that the relics could be used for a couple of scenarios: a. The assassins could use this as a mechanism to divert blame away from making a decision that could bite them in the ass. This could increase trust with the King that used the relic because they felt that the town could benefit as a whole by not having a lynch directly come back to them later. b. The assassins could use them to make sure that the town could not take advantage of these abilities later in the game. When you think about it, using Merlin for pro-town purposes is most beneficial during the first day, and the first day only. The worth of using this ability decreases day after day. The assassins could eventually use this ability to cause utter confusion at any point, making the worth of using it stay relatively the same throughout the game. The opposite actually applies for the other relic. That ability will increase in worth as the days go on, since the odds of hitting an assassin increase (see below) : *Assuming assassins never get hit: Day 1 --> 2/9 chance Day 2 --> 2/7 chance Day 3 --> 2/5 chance Day 4 --> 2/3 chance (useless by then, but still worth noting) **I am \ assuming that the sword also takes out the sitting king by random. If not then subtract 1 person per day. The worth of the ability would increase for an assassin king to use though. It would appear that using the sword early is risky, but beneficial for the mafia. By today though, the worth of either ability has diminished so I doubt either party will jump to use them. By today though I think even talking about the relics is pointless. I think the consensus of the town is that we would rather not use them. I am okay with this decision. Also I replied to the most pressing issue in Orgoloves post. If he felt I did anything to not fulfill a complete response he could have asked me to respond again and rephrase the question. He did not. He made another post today that rehashed similar posting habits from his day 1 posts and I replied accordingly. Also don't think that there is a 100% chance that there will be a mafia king. The kingmaker could actually be lucky enough to analyze players that are playing very pro-town. It's important for the kingmaker to do his part and analyze the players behind the scenes and avoid picking scum players. We could go through the whole game without ever having an assassin king. Congrats to the kingmaker if that happens. Wondering why Hesmyrr didn't answer this. | ||
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If you want, you could have argued with him over it. However you did,'t. You choose to lynch the person who wasn't responsive at all, and dismissed accusations as On November 14 2010 11:15 BrownBear wrote: ugh. There seems to be a lot of pressure on me, for really stupid reasons. Without explaining why | ||
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On November 15 2010 08:55 CubEdIn wrote: Bleh. Nobody is paying attention to me. I will need to hear orgolove and pandain's arguments or else they're the prime suspects on my list. Sorry, but after tonight there will be only 5 people left, and I really can't stand semi-lurking. I was away too, and it's the weekend, fine, but we need to hear arguments. Also, if we're gonna use merlin, it will have to be now. If we flip a red, we'll have 2v2 (after the reds kill one player, that night), and one red will be revealed, thus killed, leading to a 2v1 situation, which is basically a coin-flip for the king-maker. I'm not saying it's the best solution, since to me, the chances of uncovering a red now are relatively close to random, so we might as well use the sword and have a kill as well. It's a tough choice, but this is where the game gets interesting. It might be do-or-die. Ima go sleep. If I die, please consider what I just said. Uhh... Day already ended. We can't use merlin anymore. (It's a day action) | ||
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On November 16 2010 08:24 Pandain wrote: ace its not suspenseful if we already know what happens :p Wait... So are you mafia??? | ||
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