EPTMicro Mafia IV: Redemption - Page 12
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On October 26 2010 11:31 Coagulation wrote: NB Should get the I have no idea whats going on award. sr man, i did vote for both Dr.H and drag_.... Its not like i dont know what is going on but i wana change my stats since my early lost in haunted mafia ^^ Since this is just a small game, i wana use it as a test to see people reaction for the incoming insane mafia  ....Happy B-day BB! GG guys ^^ | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On October 21 2010 05:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote: This is true also. Really there is no reason to be defensive of other people since as a townie you have no idea who is mafia and who isn't. Mafia are the only players who are sure of an opposing players alignment. Town need to aggressively scumhunt. There is no reason to play a defensive game as town since a town member has nothing to be defensive about. Mafia naturally play defensively and try to emphasize what is "pro-town" or not because they feel guilty. First bolded statement is not true. There are plenty of examples when townies defend someone even early in the game because they think people are on the wrong track. For example, Foolishness defended BC and Pyrr when they were going at each other in Mafia XII. In mafia XX, L/BC/me all defended each other early in the game claiming we were all innocent. There are other games where innocents making defenses have occurred, so these are just two examples. In both games, the defenders were all innocent. DH's statement suggests that people only defend others when they know for certain that they are defending an innocent (or mafia, in the case of mafia defenders). This is not the case. Innocents have plenty of reason to break up a fight if they feel that the fight is helping cloud the town's judgment, not leading the town in the correct direction, or giving advantage to the mafia by creating an air of chaos. None of these reasons require 100% confirmation of alignment in order to make a defense. Now this statement doesn't really say much about DH's alignment, but is very strange. And also something mafia has good reason to say. DH should have been called out on this logic in some way. Second bolded statement is interesting if only because DH has not been aggressively scumhunting. All he does is say day 1 lynches are worthless both in terms of information and in terms of the accuracy of a day 1 lynch. A little later on, he does attack a few people for "scumtells", but this really isn't "aggressive scumhunting". DH's statement is contradictory and should be called out. Furthermore, a look at DH's previous statement: On October 20 2010 16:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote: the only player i don't know is lol1221 and i'm assuming it's korynne or dreamflower smurfing. also i wanted to say this to the town and this is the perfect time to do so: don't lynch people for defending other players. note in haunted mafia how veldril barely defended masq (which is reasonable cause day 1 lynch is a crapshoot anyhow) and then ended up getting lynched for it. the way mafia defend other mafia is by attacking the accuser, not by actually defending. nice chainsaw defense  shows that DH doesn't want to lynch people for defending other players. Yet now he says that town has no reason to defend other players. What is DH trying to say here? It seems like he's contradicting himself, since according to his logic only mafia have incentive to defend other players. Hypocrisy here that should be pointed out. On October 21 2010 10:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: way to misunderstand what i'm saying on day 1 town does not have enough information to pin down a mafia. people don't really have much to argue about, voting records are sparse, and there is just not enough content for real scumhunting to take place. it's a crapshoot. day 1 votes are always a crapshoot. do you really honestly think town has a great chance of catching mafia on day 1? if so that is the dumbest thing anyone has said to me in a mafia game. random voting, in the beginning, creates a discussion and increases the chance of successful scumhunting as people feel the need to defend themselves if they are voted for. also i have no intention of destroying brownbear lol wtf. i'm voting for him to force him to talk. i picked his name at random. hence RNG vote. More ranting that day 1 lynch is useless. Multiple games have proven that day 1 information comes around. For example, Team Melee Mini Mafia II had significant evidence on a mafia lynch day 1. Its not impossible. People who say day 1 is useless should be looked at carefully with a wary eye. On "chainsaw defenses" and other "scumtells": these sorts of tells should be looked at with a lot of skepticism. Because quite frankly they're normally wrong. Yet DH gets away with this kind of behavior. On October 22 2010 10:41 DoctorHelvetica wrote: all day 1 votes are pretty much pointless. it's better to lynch a bad player like jodogohoo than someone like brownbear who has some experience. More criticism by DH, who does nothing to further town's goals. Still people don't call him out. The only thing I see is a couple randomvotes here and there. On October 22 2010 11:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote: But not you right? Day 1 voting is a crapshoot. Voting for jodogohoo isn't suspicious at all. Good luck catching mafia on the first day in any game. :/ What is more interesting is the fact that mafia killed lol1221 rather than an experienced player like BrownBear or myself. I don't want to talk about mafias reasoning because it's pointless and devolves into WIFOM. For now I'll vote for Drag_ and see how he responds. [Vote]##drag_ So...the mafia kill is "interesting", yet you don't want to talk about this "interesting" reasoning because its pointless? Why bring this up in the first place? Someone is trying to appear to provide content. I'll stop here, but the entire game, DH get away with a lot of bad logic and questionable behavior without being challenged. Mafia don't hand themselves to you on a plate. They need to be challenged/subverted in some way/forced to act. Town did nothing to take control of the game atmosphere, and paid for it. DH slips by with an easy win here because of town complacency. Active towns need to pressure people in meaningful ways and take control of the game atmosphere. Letting people get away with fence-sitting and bad logic like DH did is sure going to lead to a town loss. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On October 26 2010 15:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i want to be town I too am quite interested in seeing how you would perform as town. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
i hope my allies in that game are doing ok T_T...hmm, i will have to try a different strats in Insane mafia xD... lets see what i came up with :3 | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
unfortunately my DT check was in vain. ( I probably only have myself to blame) | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
honestly I was so lost, I had no idea what to do. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 26 2010 15:56 NB wrote: to explain a little more about my strats in this game, I simply tried to play dumb with a little bit "anti-town" attitude. How does this help the town? It does not. The only thing it does is keeping me alive in the game to observe your reactions base on different move i made. Since most of my action are "un-certain", there is no way mafia would consider me as a target and all i need is to survive the first day since the chance for me to survive 2nd and 3rd is pretty high since i assume i wont have votes from the 2 mafia. Interestingly enough, this method work extremely well and i can clearly see the bandwagons people try to pull off and follow. As the result, I have a quite clear view on who was trying to do what and all of my votes are on "none-green" character. Unfortunately i realized on Drag_ quite late (after i tried to accuse pandian on being scum, he agreed to lynch me right away) so there is no way i could change people mind at that time. About the fact that Dr.H voted on drag_, it was really a good move to make sure if 1 of them die the other will survive but since he did it too early on, it turns out to be a bad move (also its bad since you only have 2 scums). I tried to use that move in haunted mafia but i got killed to early to pull that off. i hope my allies in that game are doing ok T_T...hmm, i will have to try a different strats in Insane mafia xD... lets see what i came up with :3 Caller used to use this style quite frequently. The problem with it is once you decide to help the town, they are less inclined to believe you/ follow you. However, if you can get past that, it can be quite effective. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On October 26 2010 22:04 Qatol wrote: Caller used to use this style quite frequently. The problem with it is once you decide to help the town, they are less inclined to believe you/ follow you. However, if you can get past that, it can be quite effective. yes, it turns out to be quite effective if you get people to trust you and the only way i could think of it is either using PM blindly early game to garther allies (not allowed in this game) OR creating a HUGE giant ass post that can change everybody mind (hard and time consuming to do) :< | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On October 26 2010 19:32 Pandain wrote: why is doctor h so good. honestly I was so lost, I had no idea what to do. Just kill drag_ that would have been the cool thing to do. Analysis would have taken 3 minutes. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 27 2010 00:52 NB wrote: yes, it turns out to be quite effective if you get people to trust you and the only way i could think of it is either using PM blindly early game to garther allies (not allowed in this game) OR creating a HUGE giant ass post that can change everybody mind (hard and time consuming to do) :< You should never have to PM blindly. Educated guessing is another matter entirely. There are usually at least a few people who are pretty blatantly innocent for various reasons early in the game. Start off talking to them . Always keep in mind that they might not be as innocent as they seem, but Mafia usually slip up decently quickly if you talk to them enough. Obviously none of this matters in games without PMs. I'm not entirely sure even a huge post to establish your innocence is really enough. Honestly, it is just hard to establish trust after people decide you are suspicious barring a positive rolecheck or something like a medic protection. You pretty much have to make several comprehensive posts which lead to multiple mafia. That style is simply worse in games without PMs to the point where I'd advise against using it. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 27 2010 00:55 LSB wrote: Just kill drag_ that would have been the cool thing to do. Analysis would have taken 3 minutes. And it isn't like DrH didn't have mafia tells too. Incognito's post above highlighted a bunch of them. If you're unsure you can do something like that, go back and read some of the old games. There are also at least 3 guides out there (Ver's, Ace's, mine - all highlighted in the stickied tips and tricks thread), and you could always PM a more experienced player and ask for pointers (I recommend Incognito because he obviously read the full game). | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Day One The biggest question is what the town should do day 1. The good example of a Day 1 game would be TMMM2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142614¤tpage=9#173 During Day 1 people established a good atmosphere for the town. Incog had discussion on a plan going. And more importantly both mafia teams were fingered and almost died. In fact, if kor hadn’t allowed for abstentions, the town would have killed me/pyrr (mafia) on day 1. Incog offered a great plan for micro mafia; I would have pushed that plan. Also, I don’t know where the RNG day 1 idea came from. But immediately two things should have been suspect. 1) DoctorH RNGed a vet 2) No one considered lynching inactives. If the town went for a plan of lynching inactives, drag_ wouldn’t have had such an easy time. Although jodogohoo probably would have still died. DoctorH would look scummy, and drag_ would be pressured to play. On October 21 2010 13:54 jodogohoo wrote: I guess I am expandable.. well... if I can contribute anyway to the town.. I guess this is the best i can do. Thus, I shall take pride in my noble sacrifice. And wish the rest of you men staying behind to fight the war good luck. Jodogohoo, I guess you were playing conservatively, but fight! As townie you are expendable, that means use your life well Day Two DoctorH killed lol1221 because he didn’t want to draw attention to himself. If the mafia killed a vet and DoctorH is alive, things would look kindof strange. The big issue was what to deal with Coagulation. He immediately claimed DT at the start of day 1. Strangely DocH was the only one who noticed this. Immediately the town should have made the choice to Kill Coagulation because he lied or Kill Drag_ because Coagulation is telling the truth. The town wasted the DT this game. Although Coagulation should have attacked drag_ more. The town really ignored all of this. Day 3 NB, although I see you were trying to act scummy. However, this just gave DocH a great way to bandwagon you. And then you died because of this. This style I guess can be used day 1, or if you are guaranteed townie (Incog tried using this in TMMM2, but me and pyrr caught on). But on Lylo, this is just suicide for the town. What should of happened is more pressure on drag_, he bandwagon two people without much explanation, and the DT Voted for him. Then again, lots of things could have happened. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
I'm happy at the least I knew it was either NB/BB or drag/Dr.H but of course it was day 3 by then :p. | ||
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