EPTI wanted to see what sort of reaction a vote for InfiniteStory might revoke. I'm voting for myself as a placeholder as I am currently combing through the thread and analysing coagulation, youngminii, aeres, and sorta deconduo.
Insane Mafia - Page 97
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I wanted to see what sort of reaction a vote for InfiniteStory might revoke. I'm voting for myself as a placeholder as I am currently combing through the thread and analysing coagulation, youngminii, aeres, and sorta deconduo. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:40 LunarDestiny wrote: Look over day 2 post again. 3 people are infected... The logical reason is mafia targeted someone and that person came in contact with 2 others. I question who that person could be. As of now, no one claims to have the disease so I assume that no doctor has the disease. If DrH is telling the truth about his poking ability and his doctor role. He couldn't have the disease and the disease never transferred to another person. Then who the mafia targeted with the disease and who the disease spread to. We have to figure this out soon or the game will end at an exponential rate. My guess is that it's someone who stood out in day1 excluding DrH. The disease wasn't put on me. I'm completely immune to M-Rus. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: The disease wasn't put on me. I'm completely immune to M-Rus. how do you know again? | ||
infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
It's according to his role PM, supposedly. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Because my role PM says I am immune to M-rus. Bill Murray's death gave me new life and I am immune to murrayitis. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Since I was not able to confirm myself to jcarlsoniv (either because he lied, because I lied, or because another night role prevented me from using my role) others in the town (mostly Pandain and Coagulation) have been very accusatory for me. This is basically saying that because I was not confirmed to be town that means I am mafia. This is bad logic. This is a very simple situation. When I roleclaimed to the town and told them how my power of confirmation works it should have been equally obvious to everyone that a roleblocker role could stop me from acting and that the person I poke could lie. The latter is a possibility I openly talked about during my campaign, hoping it would make the mafia nervous and less likely to lie in the case that I do poke a mafia player. The first I kept to myself. If the mafia are going to roleblock, it's better they roleblock me than say a plague doctor or a detective. This is something everyone should have known but really did not need to be said. As far as the 100% confirmation issue, it is one that I dropped when I considered the possiblity that my role could be insane. The fact is, if my night action works, it confirms my role 100% to the person I poked in the exact way I've described a million times. I've been very consistent in my explanation of my role and I would argue that the assertion that I may have made up the role in the first place is absurd. I'll get to that later. My night action depends on the night action succeeding. This is a tautology and I'm surprised people think it's something that needed to be set up. A typical sane medic can't protect someone if they are roleblocked but I doubt a medic would describe themselves as not being able to do their action. I have since mostly stopped considering the idea that my role does not work the way it is described. Artanis said mods will not outright lie and that any deception in role PM's would be hinted at. I cannot quote my role PM, as it is cheating, but there is nothing in the role PM that could lead me to believe it is deceptive. There is no chance mechanic (like orgoloves) and the name/description is extremely straightforward. I poke someone and they know I poked them. If they don't know (and I wasn't roleblocked somehow) then it is because they have murrayitis. Artanis will tell me this. This means that if they DIDN'T get poked AND i don't get told they have murrayitis, that either: A. Something stopped me from going forward with the role. A roleblocker or something else. B. The person I poked lied. So I'm just going to leave that at that. That's how my role works. As far as the idea that maybe I'm lying about my role, sure anything is possible but lets look at my post history: In the beginning of the thread Node was saying things that led me to believe that we might have the same role. I tried to fish to see if we did indeed have the same role. On October 30 2010 06:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i have a feeling we have the same role actually am i poking at the truth here? Here I am trying to see if he responds to the term "poke". He doesn't so I try something a bit more obvious. No one except another sticky would get the reference and if Node wasn't the second sticky maybe someone else was. Basically I wanted to confirm that if I was the only sticky or not. If there was a second sticky who responded, I would know for a fact they were town aligned, and I would poke them during the night. On October 30 2010 06:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: now i'm thinking we don't have the same role, that puts me in a sticky situation but thats ok This is my more obvious fish. This is very early in the thread. Later kingjames discovers the significance of the name "Sticky" when Glasse tells me it sounds made up. Originally I thought sticky had something to do with that my body was covered in a sticky substance or something that made me immune to Murrayitis or that I was just a stick that poked people. I forgot about the Bill Murray "Sticky" death post. It doesn't make sense that I wouldn't understand the name of a role that I MADE UP in the first place. So lets say I made the role up. That means: 1. I anticipated Artanis' Bill Murray theme 2. Created a fake role which depends on indirectly communicating with other players, something that can be blocked. If I am mafia this requires me to out mafia to survive or sacrifice myself to a distrusting town for basically no reason or benefit 3. Coordinated with Node to fake a fish for the role I made up to appear as (presumably as Godfather) so I could later defend myself a few thousand posts later And that I did all this to become mayor. A role that is NOT immune to rolechecks as it normally is, only has 1 extra vote (a negligible power since afaik mafia started out with 2 extra potential votes in the first place and there are other voting powers in the game. This diminishes the power of the mayor to swing bandwagons on his own) Occams razor. Occams razor. That is my general defense of the assaults that are happening on me right now. I believe this assault is a combination of mafia and misled town. The problem is determining who amongst this faction is town and who is mafia. Knowing Pandain it is quite possible somebody wound him up and let him go off. Speculating on this will be difficult until we actually get a dead mafia. Then alliances in this game will become quite clear. The problem is getting our first lynch right. If vigilantes want to use your hit tonight, hit a player from the opposite "faction" or argumentative side as whoever was lynched unless the lynchee was a mafia. So now I want to say some things about a few bad assumptions players are making: 1. Godfather exists 2. M-rus is a mafia ability 3. There has to be a mafia mayor candidate and it's one of the main ones Watch out for people who continue talking about the godfather as though he is a for sure role in this game. Artanis confirmed it is up in the air. This however we do know, concerning the godfather. 1. If the Godfather exists, he must MAKE UP a role to appear as. If someone appears as a different role than they claimed in a DT check this is a huge paint for godfather as the GF has no way of knowing what roles are or aren't in the game. 2.If anyone else comes up as "Sticky" on a rolecheck besides myself, they're probably the Godfather. No one responded to my Sticky fish early in the game BUT because I believe I was the first person to reveal the name of my role the Godfather would know the name of 1 role in the game and it would be reasonable for him to choose that role. It was Glasse who first asked that I name my role. 2. Also we are assuming M-rus is a mafia ability. Node's roleclaim (and the fact that there are 3 deaths in the day) means we can pretty much forget the idea that the "2+1" mafia KP is 2 hits + 1 m-rus infection. I think it is more likely that M-rus is simply RNG'd onto a player or that another players role (not necessarily a mafia one) alludes to the fact that you are an insane/unknown M-rus carrier. If the mafia spread M-Rus, perhaps they choose the person to put it on on day 1 and then thats it? The disease spreads quickly by how people visit eachother in the night, if the mafia could just continue spreading it around I think it would be very overpowered and they'd have half the town dead pretty quickly. 3. The mayor is not very strong in this game. Mafia don't need a mayor and in fact it might be more trouble for them than it's worth. 1 bodyguard, 1 extra vote, and that's really it as far as the mafia is concerned. Mafia aren't too scared of night kills as vig hits don't usually come until the late game and the main advantage of a mafia mayor is that he can't be rolechecked meaning you can give the Godfather role to another player. Consider not only the intense scrutiny that the campaign brought initially (on myself, bum, pandain, and fishball) but the inense scrutiny that I am under now. Scrutiny on other mayoral candidates has since dropped off. I believe that if mafia ran for mayor, it is quite possible it was one of the candidates that didn't do very well in the voting process. The mafia can then push the idea that "one of the main mayoral candidates MUST be mafia" while their initial runs for mayor go unscrutinized and unchecked. This is a possiblity. I do have suspicions that Pandain is mafia due to his poor attacks on me. Lastly I want to say something. Forget about scumtells and all this stuff. When you look at what a player posts, yeah scumtells are all well and good, but any good mafia can point out a million scumtells that townies do and their town bandwagons depend on this. Look at a players goal. What is a player trying to accomplish? Is he arguing with the intent to get information crucial to the town or is he arguing with the intent to make a player look bad? Scum wants to do the latter. They don't want the town to have any information, they don't care. What they do care about is that the town thinks someone else is scum or at the very least that the town doesn't trust the word of an experienced ally. Always think about the goal of the argument as well as the argument itself. Rhetoric is very important. Factions forming in the town This is something that is absolutely toxic to our ability to work together as a town to scumhunt. By creating what appears to be alliances, the mafia can make several town players look bad or bus one mafia player to make several town players look bad. If we look at the series of defenses/attacks players have made on eachother a player could conclude that factions are forming within the game. Just remember, it isn't necessarily all mafia on one side and one on the other. Dividing the town, creating factions, and drawing attention away from the facts and the arguments benefits the mafia. These factions are worth looking at when a mafia gets lynched and it becomes apparent who may have been a scumbuddy to that player. That's my thoughts on the situation. I'll do some specific player analysis later. I'll be focusing on the seemingly opposing bandwagons concerning youngminii and Aeres as I feel mafia is behind one of these. I'd like to ask Pandain a question. You said you would/could confirm yourself as townie even if you weren't mayor. You criticize me because i failed to do so. You also haven't confirmed yourself at all something that was part of your campaign promise. It strikes me as a tad bit hypocritical. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
2) We're not assuming M-Rus is a mafia ability. M-RUS IS A MAFIA ABILITY. On October 29 2010 06:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Mayor Artanis of Insania was quickly overwhelmed by the effects of Murrayitis. It quickly became clear that the Mafia had somehow harnessed the power of Murrayitis and planned to use it against the town. 3) I find it ever so slightly contradictory that you campaigned based on "I can confirm 100% my role, but none of the other candidates can confirm 100% that they're blue." But now, once you're elected mayor, you're pushing the idea that all of the main candidates are blue, without even a single confirmation. If you trust that there are no reds amongst the main mayor candidates, you should trust Pandain too, right? | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
Reason 1 (day1) mod post: Mayor Artanis of Insania was quickly overwhelmed by the effects of Murrayitis. It quickly became clear that the Mafia had somehow harnessed the power of Murrayitis and planned to use it against the town. It stated that Mafia harnessed the power and planned to use it against the town. Reason 2: Three people are infested. That means that M-Rus infest on a random person who happens to a somewhat popular given they came in contact with 2 other people. | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
On November 02 2010 06:17 bumatlarge wrote: I'm going to make a brief player summary list. Nothing fancy, please quote to add FACTS not opinions. I'm doing this from memory just to help myself remember exactly what concrete things have happened. + Show Spoiler + 1. DoctorHelvetica - Mayor. Claims role checks for virus, used on jcarl night1, no results. 2. Hyperbola - 3. Bumatlarge - Claims he can add a person to be a personal mason each day. Ran for mayor 4. Veldril 5. Pandain - Ran for mayor. At odds with Dr. H? 6. Aeres - Claimed BG and captain role that lets hi leave at night with restrictions. Says the BG claim was a lie. 7. deconduo 8. Coagulation 9. annul Bullet Bill / Bodyguard - Mayor candidate, real BG, if there is only 1. 10. infundibulum 11. Amber[LighT] 12. Kenpachi 13. lol1221 RebirthOfLegend 14. Nemesis 15. ghrur 16. KtheZ 17. QuickStriker Angsty Pardoner - Result of +1 kp of mafia? (node oracle) 18. CubEdIn 19. Meapak_Ziphh 20. SiNiquity Self-Conscious Vigilante 21. DCLXVI 22. Divinek 23. Lexpar 24. ShmotZ Mafia Do-Gooder - never used vote, part of fishball circle 25. Orgolove ADD Doctor - modkilled, fishball circle 26. Node - Claims oracle, can see where +1 mafia kp will strike 27. youngminii 28. jcarlsoniv - claims he was never poked by Dr. H 29. BrownBear Vote Rigger 30. Infinitestory 31. Masq L 32. NB 33. Meeple Glasse 34. Misder 35. kingjames01 Self-Conscious Lazy Vigilante 36. Ace 37. Fishball - Is in confirmed (orgolove) circle of 6. Only 3 remain. Claims he can determine alignment of his circle. 38. kitaman27 39. LunarDestiny 24 of 30 Town-aligned roles remaining 8 of 9 Mafia-aligned roles remaining 1 BG Murraytis spreads to visitors and visitees. 3 People infected. Radio Loony lets a message be sent by some player. So lazy that I use this chart as reference... According to the chart, ShmotZ and Orgolove are part of Fishball's circle. But according to the role pm given after their death, there is no mentioning for any circle whatsoever. Orgolove the ADD Doctor is now dead. You are the ADD Doctor! Once per night, you may PM me the person you want to save that night. However, if the person doesn't get hit at night, you get an ADD attack and have a 10% chance of killing him yourself, so be careful! You are not allowed to protect yourself, as you are paranoid that you might kill yourself. Furthermore, given the recent spreading of Murrayitis, you have trained yourself in being able to cure a person from this plague. ShmotZ the Mafia Do-Gooder has been modkilled. You are the Mafia Do-gooder! You never really wanted to be part of the mafia, but your dad just happened to be Al Capone so you were forced into it. Every day, you get an additional vote every day, but have to use it to vote on one of the mafia. If you are the only mafia left, you are relieved of this. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'd like to ask Pandain a question. You said you would/could confirm yourself as townie even if you weren't mayor. You criticize me because i failed to do so. You also haven't confirmed yourself at all something that was part of your campaign promise. It strikes me as a tad bit hypocritical. Remember it's indirect, there's no real way to confirm my role. But come by day 2,3, I'll probably have enough to basically be confirmed. Interesting post btw, I'll definitely consider it in my analysis. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:38 LunarDestiny wrote: So lazy that I use this chart as reference... According to the chart, ShmotZ and Orgolove are part of Fishball's circle. But according to the role pm given after their death, there is no mentioning for any circle whatsoever. Orgolove the ADD Doctor is now dead. ShmotZ the Mafia Do-Gooder has been modkilled. Artanis said that the players may have received additional PMs, which would be left out of the Day post, in addition to the Role PM. Those additional PMs may include information about the circle. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
 . If anyone wants to do that I'll even link the posts that I find really scummy so you can see what has got me suspicious. Basically my points all boil down to his campaigning for an Aeres lynch, his refusal to answer our questions, his incessant arguing with/trolling of Pandain/infinitestory and his ignoring all the lynch votes for him. | ||
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Hyperbola
United States2538 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:27 infinitestory wrote: 1) There may not be a godfather. That's true. But it's better IMO to operate under the assumption that there is, rather than the assumption that there isn't. If there is a godfather, and we assume there isn't, that can be devastating. If there isn't a godfather, and we assume there is, then the harm is less. 2) We're not assuming M-Rus is a mafia ability. M-RUS IS A MAFIA ABILITY. 3) I find it ever so slightly contradictory that you campaigned based on "I can confirm 100% my role, but none of the other candidates can confirm 100% that they're blue." But now, once you're elected mayor, you're pushing the idea that all of the main candidates are blue, without even a single confirmation. If you trust that there are no reds amongst the main mayor candidates, you should trust Pandain too, right? Thank you!! I was looking for this earlier because I could have sworn I remembered reading something like that, but I must have missed it when I was skimming the Day1 post. I was starting to think that maybe it wasn't a Mafia power, but it seems that it is =( Regarding the Aeres/youngminii bandwagons: I hate bandwagons...it really shows that some people aren't thinking for themselves, and it really lets Mafia hide behind the votes. I would like to take a closer look at people like Lexpar and Kenpachi - their posts have no real content, and they lurk somewhat. Kenpachi claims to only read posts with his name, which is possible, but as soon as his name pops up, he just tries to brush it away saying he's lazy and such. Lexpar is very fishy to me. His posts have only generated confusion, even though they are few and far between. One post before night ended said "If I die, Dr.H is most likely red." I want to know more about this. Why? What reason should we ever have to believe this? To me, this just seems like scum trying to throw Dr.H under the bus with no content. This is probably worse than the awful argument between Dr.H and Pandain. Lexpar needs to tell us more. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Youngminii First post: On October 29 2010 14:55 youngminii wrote: I buy fishball's story. I don't buy bum's. This was fishy because he made no attempt to back this up. However I felt that a vote for fishball was less fishy than a last minute change from fishball to me so I made SiNiquity my #1 vote target. After SiNiquity martyred himself I switched back to youngminii, who dodged the lynch and SiNiquity died. I'll talk about the lynch dodge later. On October 31 2010 19:50 youngminii wrote: hi Sorry for not having been on in a while, I've been away from a computer for a bit (did not know it was going to happen). I'll skim the thread before I say anymore. It's too hard to tell a good excuse for inactivity for a bad one. This is nonconclusive. I will say this. Mafia's favorite thing to do is to make a player look suspicious because "he is making an excuse for being inactive" or because "oh they're inactive". So many players are usually inactive in a game mafia just has to swing the inactive bandwagon on to a blue player. In a normal set-up inactive players often have power roles and post rarely in the thread in fear that they'll somehow out themselves to the mafia. Be wary of hyperfocus on inactive players. On October 31 2010 20:20 youngminii wrote: oh god that was a shitfest, i didn't read everything to the full but i got the general gist of what's going on Before you ask me to do something stupid like roleclaim, ask yourselves: Why in God's name would scum have an ability that allows them to not die? Lynches always bypass the 'oh this guy has two lives' thing anyway. Why would I not try to defend myself after being pressured for so long? If you thought I was biding my time so that someone could try to take the attention away from me, why didn't anyone? DrH I'm surprised you didn't think of the second question. Also, a whole lot of your reasoning for your accusations in this thread comes from the metagame, which is stupid because some people like not playing the same style every single game. Stop relying on the metagame, especially if you've only seen me play *once*. Hang on, your reasoning is flawed anyway because if you actually used the metagame, you would have seen my active posting in Haunted Mafia as scum. Why in the world would you still try and get me lynched? Unlynchable/Judas can just as well be a mafia role as a town role. The bold part struck me as strange because I think youngminii knows better than to use such a WIFOM argument. His second part "lynches bypass the two lives thing" is irrelevant. Obviously that is not his role since he dodged the lynch. He paints me as relying on the metagame, which is not the case. I've referred to it and used it in my analysis, I haven't relied on it. I don't feel the metagame should be totally ignored. We as a town agreed to lynch an inactive on the first day and I felt that YM was the most suspicious amongst the inactives. It's simple. I responded to his post and this argument didn't really go anywhere. On November 01 2010 03:42 youngminii wrote: No comment. Doesn't that mean the bodyguard can't get hit at night by scum anyway? Pandain basically says here "We don't want you to roleclaim just tell us about your role and why you didn't die (aka roleclaim plz)". Youngminii doesn't fall into this potential trap and doesn't comment. Good. On November 01 2010 04:07 youngminii wrote: Seriously Pandain? The lynch is the town's greatest weapon, you can't make scum immune to lynches without making the game horribly imbalanced. In any case, why don't you think about it carefully before telling me to claim? If I'm invincible, no one will believe me. If I'm immune to lynches, mafia will kill me. If I'm able to manipulate something, that will make me just as suspicious as I am now. Stop being an idiot and play the game properly. You always do this over-analytical crap which doesn't work. Go back a step and think before you post. Maybe you should start with the first post where clearly says PMs are not allowed. His point here is good. The town has nothing to gain from youngminii roleclaiming at this point. what they do have is a potentially good role to lose. On November 01 2010 04:17 youngminii wrote: He didn't PM me, he seems to be using "why aren't you PMing others" as an argument. Sorry Pandain, you're not an idiot, your arguments are. So you're assuming that I can PM people and your argument is that I should be roleclaiming through PMs? And please, tell me how letting me die is a good thing? Back up your arguments. In any case, your posts have been hugely scummy to me, but then again they always are. I've never been in a mafia game where you've given solid arguments as a townie. YoungMinii doesn't seem to like Pandain D: (then again I guess you could say the same thing about me times a billion in this thread.) Pandain is pretty clearly trying to backtrack his way out of the fact that he was rolefishing here. YoungMinii does a good job of explaining why he disagrees with Pandain but is being quite harsh. I can confirm from watching his behind the scenes play in haunted mafia that youngminii is just a harsh dude, it's part of his personality. I thought he and quickstriker were gonna kill eachother in irc D: On November 01 2010 04:22 youngminii wrote: Translation: Aeres is scum and he's making up the role. By answering this question, I would be confirming the existence of the fake role and as such, I can't give a real answer. Maybe. Drawing way too heavy of a conclusion from that post already. This is a pretty early accusation of Aeres and it's interesting to note that it came before Ace essentially started the Aeres bandwagon. If the mafia wanted to kill Aeres, why would the focus on him so specifically? Why would they continue this focus after Aeres came out as not being bodyguard. If Aeres is town, it's pretty simple. He's the easiest target to lynch because he lied and admitted it. This is before Aeres lied though. However Aeres claims were very suspicious and youngminii's suspicions aren't poorly founded. I wasn't necessarily convinced that he was a bodyguard but I did want to believe it (as having 2 bg's would be nice D  On November 01 2010 04:28 youngminii wrote: Yeah but that's just saying "IF there's a role like the one Aeres is claiming then it would be so" Why are you so sure there are 2 bodyguards? Wasn't your logic behind the 1 bodyguard theory based on the assumption that DCX is a bodyguard? I don't see why not. Putting a lot of pressure on Aeres here, but it comes off as sensible to me. Aeres roleclaim was illogical and youngminii is catching him in some inconsistent claims. This is a good town post if you ask me. On November 01 2010 04:46 youngminii wrote: Why would you say this if you only think there are 2 bodyguards because of dcx's 'claim'? Good catch. Why would Aeres say this? On November 01 2010 10:28 youngminii wrote: Okay I don't care what's going on right now since it doesn't seem to be anything of great substance. Why is no one pointing their finger at Aeres? Did you not read the night post? A bodyguard died (Annul). Now according to LSB/Artanis, there's only one bodyguard. Maybe he's lying but if he is, we're still operating under the assumption that DCL softclaimed bodyguard. So that makes 3 in total. Aeres's claim never made sense to me anyway, and the scumtells that he dropped (oh hey I'm assuming there's two bodyguards because of DCL's softclaim.. But what if DCL isn't a bodyguard? Who's the other one?). It almost looked as if Aeres was trying to gain our trust, make us lose trust in DCL and weed out any other bodyguards that may have tried to claim. this is an improtant part of the post because it points out a possible mafia motivation for Aeres' actions. The people jumping on the youngminii bandwagon have tried to claim that "Aeres play makes sense as town not mafia" when it's been demonstrated a few times that's not really quite the case. On November 01 2010 12:13 youngminii wrote: LAL Lynch All Liarsss On November 01 2010 12:14 youngminii wrote: Pandain, slow down. Stop posting. Stop spamming the thread with long but useless information. DrH, stop replying to his 'arguments'. You'll just detract from other, more important issues. On November 01 2010 12:17 youngminii wrote: Sure that's important. The arguments being put forward (mainly by Pandain) are not important. They are useless, misguided and nothing will be brought up out of them. The only thing they might be able to do is convince some people to vote for DrH without any conclusive evidence. Focus on Aeres. In case you don't know, LAL = Lynch All Liars. He is very insistent on ending the argument I'm having with Pandain. Now I agree Pandain's arguments were illogical and dumb, but his intense focus on the Aeres bandwagon is something people brought up as suspicious. Why is it suspicious? Mafia don't focus down on a target like that unless they REALLY want them dead, especially this early in the game when their voting power isn't that strong. Mafia change their targets to what they think is the easiest, what's gonna bring the least criticism on them, what arguments does the town want to hear? A townie has every reason to focus down on the player they most suspect, since it is essential that scumlynches occur. Anything else could very well be mafia noise and distraction. Attempts to discredit focus don't cut it for me. On November 01 2010 12:31 youngminii wrote: His 'lies' are more like promises that turned out to be untrue due to unforeseen circumstances. Do you not see what's happening? Someone: So DrH I think you might be lying because of x DrH: Well I wasn't lying but y happened so it looks like I was lying about x but there might also be the possibility of z (ie. he's covering all bases) Pandain: So you expect us to believe you about y AND z? How convenient that you came up with them (then he goes back to the original arguments that DrH already covered) Just stop it. This is a good post. Pandain never responded though of course. Continual focus on Aeres On November 01 2010 12:45 youngminii wrote: That's not the point. There's no way of finding out whether or not our Mayor is a blue or a red as of now. The arguments that Pandain is putting up are ridiculous and stretched way too far, if you honestly keep up with your persistent following of this idiocy (I'm talking about his arguments, not Pandain himself) then I'm going to have to label you as scum following a blind argument aimed at taking down a blue mayor. Defending me. While I'm glad somebody agrees Pandains arguments were dumb mafia would have a good motivation to attach themselves to me and make it appear as though they are on my side. If they die and flip red the mafia can easily use that to get me lynched. That's why I don't like speculating too much about factions, it can really go either way. On November 01 2010 12:47 youngminii wrote: Just stop replying to him, no one except infinitestory (and his scum buddies if he's scum) will listen to him. You'll drag it on too. On November 01 2010 12:56 youngminii wrote: Would be nice and all if Pandain didn't play like this all the time. I'm still waiting for a counter argument for/from Aeres, until then my vote will stand. @inifinitestory: So we elected DrH because we thought he'd be able to confirm. Now there may be a way for a red to take away that ability to confirm OR they may be the possibility that DrH is red. So you want to spam up the thread and kill him based on that? At most, I see this as a 50/50 chance, mathematically speaking. I see Aeres as a much better investment. P.S. I'm ignoring you Pandain, I don't feel the need to respond to your argument and spam the thread even more. On November 01 2010 13:07 youngminii wrote: You don't fake a roleclaim to confuse mafia. You will only end up confusing town, especially if you do it early in the game. Everyone knows this. Even if there was the small chance that he's telling the truth, he deserves to be killed because of the simple fact that he lied and confused town. His lie and DrH's 'lie' are completely different things. This type of play is discouraged and he should be killed off for it, Bill Murray used to do it a lot to the great dismay of everyone. LAL This is the truth, really. It causes way more harm to the town than it does to the mafia. This I disagree with. If we knew somehow that Aeres was 100% town it would be dumb to lynch him especially when the role "Cruiseship Captain" that he claimed could be valuable. On November 01 2010 13:07 youngminii wrote: The only real reason I can think of is he played extremely well in Haunted Mafia (carried us to victory). Maybe they saw him as a threat. On November 01 2010 13:13 youngminii wrote: I've been thinking about this for a while now. Mafia use a chatroom or something similar as an efficient tool for chatting. Often times the mods of the game join the chatroom to oversee what's happening. So at the point where Aeres had already roleclaimed the second bodyguard (after Annul) a lot of people were asking Artanis whether or not he made lies up. Artanis replied that he would not give an outright lie. This would tell us there is only one bodyguard (unless I'm missing something) which essentially outs Aeres as a liar. So I'm thinking Artanis probably gave Aeres a heads up that he was going to say what he said about the lies beforehand so that Aeres could get a chance to redeem himself a little bit by admitting his lie. ie. he was backed into a corner with no more options. I'm probably horribly wrong on this though, heh. Fair enough. On November 01 2010 13:15 youngminii wrote: You're going to die anyway. Unless the mafia are allowed to move the hit? On November 01 2010 13:19 youngminii wrote: Trust? Too much relaxation? As scum they could put us into a state of 'oh hey the Mayor has a bodyguard, he won't die, we don't need a doctor to protect him' if we think he's still got an active bodyguard. I mean, who the hell would actually go to the trouble of making an entire 'Cruiseship Captain' role by themself? Looks like it was looked over and peer reviewed by an entire team of people imo. The original Cruiseship Captain Crap: Now i'm not sure. The cruiseship captain seems like it could be a legit role. This is really not useful speculation since we don't know what Artanis is thinking. On November 01 2010 13:47 youngminii wrote: You should see Pandain's style of play in other games. In almost every game as town he would pull this type of shit and get killed and flip town and cause mass confusion. @jcarl: I understand what you mean by the town being very secure about me but there's not much they can do. As far as they can tell, I might be invincible and trying to kill me will do nothing. In any case, there's not really anything toooooo scummy about my (perceived) role imo. True. Pandain is a pretty scummy town player. On November 01 2010 14:05 youngminii wrote: Well then we should kill Aeres and find out, no? ^_^ Kills for information, not a strategy I like. I suppose there is no better alternative, we have to lynch somebody and ym/ace made a good case for Aeres. On November 01 2010 14:50 youngminii wrote: I cannot think of these situations you refer to but I'm about a hundred percent sure that a softclaim that was vague at best (which turned out to not be a claim) at basically the beginning of the game does not warrant a roleclaim that not only claims the bodyguard role but an extra Cruiseship Captain role. Oh, let's not forget the fact that he said that the mods lied about the number of bodyguard roles too. Good point here. On November 01 2010 15:08 youngminii wrote: Someone was killed with the role of ADD Doctor, which stated that you had a 10% chance of killing the patient if he wasn't being hit (or something like that). After the death, Artanis stated that the 10% chance was a lie and he would never have actually killed anyone. This tells us there are small, gay lies but no outright ones. On November 01 2010 15:18 youngminii wrote: Oh right. There were quite a few. Even I thought the mods were lying because they never said anything about it. On November 01 2010 22:24 youngminii wrote: Actually I'm just waiting for a counter argument. There's only so much I can say by myself, it takes two to create a discussion. On November 01 2010 22:25 youngminii wrote: Interesting theory. We should keep this in mind, perhaps? On November 01 2010 23:50 youngminii wrote: I apologise, I can try be more inactive just for you. What a great argument you have there. I've already said I was afk for basically all of day 1, are you seriously saying you can't see that? Probably made a 'newbie' mistake? It's a pretty huge mistake/scumtell if you looked at it carefully, I don't see why you're letting the cookie thief get away without even a slap on the wrist. I look at my arguments and then I look at the argument I threw out. Pandain and DrH going at it about how DrH has no way of proving he's innocent. Is this argument constructive? No, it will bring nothing new to the table. No analysis, except maybe Pandain's overeagerness of going for DrH. My arguments are designed to punish the liar, the person who got caught red handed in his 'one man hero attempt to save the bodyguard'. I'm still waiting for the counterargument and it's not coming. So yeah, I think I'll go ahead and gun him. I wasn't aware I had a style of being quiet until I'm lynched if I was just a townie. If you could direct me to a game where I did this, please do. Ditto for my typical 'pro-town' play. Oh yeah, how is it worth nothing I'm not 'just a townie'? You realise there are no 'just a townies' in this game, right? Or are you that inactive? I'd appreciate it if you stopped pulling idiotic arguments out. Thank you very much, I'm not sure Amber read the thread all the way through. He didn't catch my roleclaim and a few other bits of key information so I'm just gonna disregard the first part here. Amber's entire argument here is pretty much meta. Youngminii makes the case for his lynch of Aeres. This is a good post by YM imo. On November 01 2010 23:55 youngminii wrote: I don't even... What? I've said time and time again I'm waiting for you to argue. I'm not 100% certain you're scum, I don't think anyone is, and you have this time to point out why we shouldn't lynch you. It is never, ever good town play to lynch yourself unless there's a special scenario/mechanic that directly helps town to do it. Another good point by youngminii. IMO this shows that he isn't a mafia hellbent on lynching Aeres (could be a mafia trying to do something else) but is merely interested in lynching whoever the best target is at the time. If he was mafia wanting a bandwagon on Aeres, there is no reason to make a post cautioning the town that he might be a VI. On November 02 2010 00:03 youngminii wrote: I was scum. Nice try though. Thanks for the 4000th amber made a dumb mistake here : / maybe i should read through ambers posts Well that's the end of YM's posts. I think youngminii is a pro-town player. Amber's attempts to metagame and make youngminii look mafia for it were pathetic and fell flat on their face. He has shown that he is willing to consider a better target than Aeres should it arise, and his arguments against Aeres in the first place are mostly good ones. Aside from that he's contributed other useful posts throughout the thread. Now I'll talk about the lynch dodge. I know of three roles that can dodge lynches: unlynchable (either mafia or town) saulus (mafia) judas (town) The unlynchable does not get lynched the first time he is lynched. The second time it will work. The saulus is a mafia player that when lynched the first time becomes town. I consider this an OP role because the saulus can then release the mafia list, unless the saulus is a player intentionally kept in the dark about who else is mafia. the judas is a town player that when lynched the first time becomes mafia. Opposite of Saulus. My main concern for youngminii is that this is his role. It is also possible that a bus type of role acted on youngminii/SiN or that a pardoner type role was somehow involved. Ultimately speculation is nonconclusive and i'd be highly suspicious of further attempts to force youngminii to roleclaim. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:39 Pandain wrote: Remember it's indirect, there's no real way to confirm my role. But come by day 2,3, I'll probably have enough to basically be confirmed. Interesting post btw, I'll definitely consider it in my analysis. Yes i remember. Alright, as long as you haven't tossed this point aside, I'm ok with that. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:27 infinitestory wrote: 1) There may not be a godfather. That's true. But it's better IMO to operate under the assumption that there is, rather than the assumption that there isn't. If there is a godfather, and we assume there isn't, that can be devastating. If there isn't a godfather, and we assume there is, then the harm is less. It's better to operate under no assumption at all, in my opinion. 2) We're not assuming M-Rus is a mafia ability. M-RUS IS A MAFIA ABILITY. 3) I find it ever so slightly contradictory that you campaigned based on "I can confirm 100% my role, but none of the other candidates can confirm 100% that they're blue." But now, once you're elected mayor, you're pushing the idea that all of the main candidates are blue, without even a single confirmation. If you trust that there are no reds amongst the main mayor candidates, you should trust Pandain too, right? I never said I don't trust there are no mafia candidates. I just wanted to say there is no reason we should assume there is. I don't think all the main candidates are blue at all. You'll note I did not say "mafia probably didn't run for mayor" just that "it could make a lot of sense if they didn't." I'm not pushing the idea. I'm bringing it up as a possibility because I don't want the mafia to push the assumption and suspicion constantly onto main mayor candidates when it's quite possible none of them are mafia. I also find it a bit odd you made it a point here to put a soft defense on Pandain. You're a good reader InfiniteStory, why are you telling me I'm making arguments/statements that I'm not making at all? Good catch on number 2. I retract that statement. Good reading. My responses otherwise in red. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On November 01 2010 23:42 CubEdIn wrote: Did you understand what I mean though? If we can prove that he is able to poke people, AND not infect them, then it's quite positive that he's blue. Why? Because Mafia would not need a player who can "test" if people are infected, since they control the infection and already KNOW who is infected and who is not. It's really simple. Like I said ages ago and just like Fishball illustrated - his role is not tied to his alignment. @Amber: It doesn't matter if it's a newbie mistake. Lying is SCUMMMY. I don't know why we always go with these "oh he was just trying to be a hero townie so he lied" moments. How many games do we need to play where Scum lie, town believes it was just a mistake and there's a red GG Scum Wins message on page 100? Lynch All Liars. Period. Once you start letting the first person go with lies then it's extremely hard to lynch the next set of liars since they have the same safe alibi. As an example, remember the greatest lie ever told in a Mafia game on TL.net is Caller's bullshit Insane Busdriver claim, 2 days after he led the town to believe he was another role. The town bought it hook, line and sinker because "oh Caller was just trying to help" and walla - 2 dead townes, Caller escapes THREE lynches and the town loses. Stop letting people lie. You can't even defend this anymore (and this goes for all of you trying to justify Aeres's play). @Jcarl: Who cares if he's the Village Idiot. If he is, ignore him. Scum hunt. Village Idiots usually don't end the game as it's just a "yay you managed to get lynched" role aka completely useless. That said I doubt he's a VI. Probably just playing "dumb" in order to save himself from being nightkilled. @Aeres: Your best bet is to hope for a DT or some kind of hidden Pardoner role to save you. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen though. @L: You can't prove Dr.H lied. Dr.H said he'd try to use his ability on Night 1, and it's inconclusive on if he was roleblocked, if Jcarl is telling the truth or if Dr.H is lying. With Aeres we know he's lying. Big difference. LAL doesn't apply to Dr.H because he wasn't caught lying. Also if Aeres is some kind of mad hatter role that just shows he was lying about being a Cruise Captain - which would mean he lied TWICE. Now we are encouraging townies to lie about everything just to draw a hit to save a Mayor who's alignment he doesn't know? Shit just sign me up for the next religious cult asap. Once again L is asking for the death of one player to "confirm" another. Remember what I said about him trying to get people killed for information? Right. Dr.H's death doesn't give you any bearing onto Aeres's alignment. Period. @deconduo: If townies have to lie sometimes with good reason give some examples because this time was definitely not good. Guys, we aren't going after Kenpachi or any non-active players today. We've got 2 big situations to solve right now. Let's actually scum hunt. @Dr.H - youngminii seems to be getting bandwagoned "because he should have died during the lynch". deconduo is saying youngminii, who hasn't been shown to lie at all or do anything scummy should be lynched over a guy who has lied, possibly twice AFTER 2 players pushed him onto the spotlight. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
i'm combing through aeres' posts right now funnily enough he's defended me harder than probably any player in the game, much moreso than youngminii. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:38 LunarDestiny wrote: So lazy that I use this chart as reference... According to the chart, ShmotZ and Orgolove are part of Fishball's circle. But according to the role pm given after their death, there is no mentioning for any circle whatsoever. Orgolove the ADD Doctor is now dead. ShmotZ the Mafia Do-Gooder has been modkilled. Some corrections I want to point out on your list. - QS was in my circle too. - Woah, I never said I can determine the "alignment" of my circle. I've mentioned my role was a simple one, and Orgolove's last post already brought up the fact that my role isn't even an investigative role. Any investigation made, is just by pure "conversation". | ||
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