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On August 05 2010 11:19 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:15 youngminii wrote:Dw I'll go back and revise my play. And uhh, I'll make it eventually  I really wished that chaoser had been scum because your play reminded me of this. Focusing on ScumWhen I did my post analysis of Chaoser I noticed that he and I had played almost identically, I was hoping I wouldn't get called on it due to the shortage of time and him being defensive.
nope everyone was pretty much inactive by this time except the mob so it was pretty unlikely you'd get called on anything
well played!
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On August 05 2010 10:58 Ace wrote:@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust? Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there?  . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/ETA: Also while the plan was bad, the result was good and I think I agreed with that sentiment in PMs. BC and rastaban got outted, and Brownbear is correct that reading back and looking at how the other DT circle got broken Protact was the last person in the circle alive after Pandain's death. I'm not blaming you as if you lost the town the game, I just don't think Town fake claims work out in a situation where you don't have a guilty result or a confirmed townie in the open.
Blasphemy!
In all seriousness, it is either a strong role or a weak role. If the hatter can figure out who a few of the mafia are quickly, but aren't able to push a lynch, it can be a very strong role. Dreamflower from mafia 15 comes to mind. Otherwise, it is a weak role.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
dreamflower imba!
I loved reading that game.
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meh, I just think if given the choice I'd rather take a 1 shot vigilante over a hatter any day. Way stronger and more useful since they can confirm themselves without dying.
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my list for final mafia were rastaban and pyrr + random cause it seemed JUST like BC to pull a cover with rastaban sayign BC claimed DT to him and wtf to do to buy him time and then his huge post on me was the tipping point. And the fact that pyrr wasn't dead yet seemed weird, he's a strong player regardless so for him to be town and not die sent off huge warning signs. Oh well. GG, at that point I was wayyyy too tired from my trip/interview to make any real argument, I ended up passing out
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i just wanna apologize for giving up after citi flipped town. i was really frustrated and honestly didn't feel like playing anymore.
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On August 05 2010 12:17 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
i just wanna apologize for giving up after citi flipped town. i was really frustrated and honestly didn't feel like playing anymore.
i hardly felt like going when the rules starting changing on the fly
it hurt the entire time
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On August 05 2010 10:58 Ace wrote:@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust? Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there? . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/ ETA: Also while the plan was bad, the result was good and I think I agreed with that sentiment in PMs. BC and rastaban got outted, and Brownbear is correct that reading back and looking at how the other DT circle got broken Protact was the last person in the circle alive after Pandain's death. I'm not blaming you as if you lost the town the game, I just don't think Town fake claims work out in a situation where you don't have a guilty result or a confirmed townie in the open.
I still don't see how the plan was bad if you concede there was an urgency to create a circle and that a potential hatter losing out on bombs is a reasonable price to pay for a circle in this set-up. In another game faced with the same situation I would do the same thing, making sure to be more active. I have read nothing to make me change my mind.
Also, the fake-claim played no role what-so-ever: I could not have done anything different if I were the actual hatter. I did revealed I was green right before the flip, but by then the votes were what they were and it was better to tell the town why I was going to flip green. In fact it was a good decision, which allowed the real hatter to live 1 more night.
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This looks awesome, I cant wait for the next one.. This is my first time.
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On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help.
Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy.
Whatever, I will drop it.
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On August 05 2010 12:04 Ace wrote:
meh, I just think if given the choice I'd rather take a 1 shot vigilante over a hatter any day. Way stronger and more useful since they can confirm themselves without dying.
I'm with you. I really believed most of the stuff I said about killing DTA even if he was hatter because he would just end up killing innocents. Turns out the hatter was Zeks, but I was right about the Hatter doing more harm than good.
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On August 05 2010 12:04 Ace wrote:
meh, I just think if given the choice I'd rather take a 1 shot vigilante over a hatter any day. Way stronger and more useful since they can confirm themselves without dying.
Aww, I like the chaos that a hatter injects into the game.
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The main problem is that most people who get the mad hatter role will put bombs on people no matter what, just because they can.
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Yeah, because TL townplay is weak. There's a way to play Hatter correctly, and it does not involve placing a bomb every night.
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Well it's the same idea I use for Vigilantes. If I ever roll hatter the only people that are getting bombs are scum and worthless townies. Problem is that a hatter can't confirm themselves without death, which also happens to be the only way their power activates.
So I pray for Vigilante instead ^_^
ETA: TL's overall play has gotten much better than it was 2 years ago. Before you had no hope of some basic things working out without a major fight.
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I can't believe no one listened to me and took out Pyrr.
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On August 05 2010 14:21 DarthThienAn wrote:
I can't believe no one listened to me and took out Pyrr.
pyrr is really good at not dying when he should.
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On August 05 2010 13:25 BrownBear wrote:
Yeah, because TL townplay is weak. There's a way to play Hatter correctly, and it does not involve placing a bomb every night.
Chez = epic hatter.
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On August 05 2010 13:32 Ace wrote:
Well it's the same idea I use for Vigilantes. If I ever roll hatter the only people that are getting bombs are scum and worthless townies. Problem is that a hatter can't confirm themselves without death, which also happens to be the only way their power activates.
So I pray for Vigilante instead ^_^
ETA: TL's overall play has gotten much better than it was 2 years ago. Before you had no hope of some basic things working out without a major fight.
And that's why I prefer the Hatter. I don't like roles that are confirmed too easily. Also, the hatter has to draw a hit and figure out mafia the town haven't found yet. I think the role just takes more skill to use properly and is more interesting.
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I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'(
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EPT
