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Heh, not too suprised, but really nice play by mafia. I dont have any regrets, I trusted citizen and zeks and really pushed for BC and south. Had no idae about anyone else though. Wish they would have kept me alive 
And was rasta the one that "analyzed" and said i was 88% town? what a bastard lol
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On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'(
that it would be =(
Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe
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On August 05 2010 14:34 bumatlarge wrote:Heh, not too suprised, but really nice play by mafia. I dont have any regrets, I trusted citizen and zeks and really pushed for BC and south. Had no idae about anyone else though. Wish they would have kept me alive And was rasta the one that "analyzed" and said i was 88% town? what a bastard lol
You died for being on citizens balls too much.
When his plan was first formed you, lakris and zeks were onboard with it way to fast and seemed like you were working together with citizen. After we lynched citizen (just before zeks claimed) I listed out you, zeks, lakris and siniquity as the most logical candidates for citizens circle, which meant at least two of the four were blue (turned out 3 were huzzah). We double stacked subversion just in case as we knew he was dt 100% then following night the mafia acted on my last will and testament basically and it payed off netting the last 3 blues that we didnt know 100%, and got a few townies in the bag.
From there they just played the fanning the flames game till lylo happened and here we are.
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On August 05 2010 14:34 bumatlarge wrote:Heh, not too suprised, but really nice play by mafia. I dont have any regrets, I trusted citizen and zeks and really pushed for BC and south. Had no idae about anyone else though. Wish they would have kept me alive And was rasta the one that "analyzed" and said i was 88% town? what a bastard lol
Hey that 12% was that you were a blue role lol. I was kind of hoping to frame you somehoe but when I was done I thought man there is no way anyone would believe that, screw it I will try and win some townie points. It was my first analysis, but I wonder if I haven't ruined any real town analysis from now on since I had to make these based on how I wanted the out come and not reading the actual results.
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On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^. There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch. And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled. Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons: 1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly. 2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch. 3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying. In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem. If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan. So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone. Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book. Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day. It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open. I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them. So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea. And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.
First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong.
First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role.
Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright.
Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry.
For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red.
This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole.
On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help. Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy. Whatever, I will drop it.
If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you.
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On August 05 2010 14:21 DarthThienAn wrote:
I can't believe no one listened to me and took out Pyrr.
I did  Too bad I'm not good at this game tho...
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On August 05 2010 16:12 Misder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 14:21 DarthThienAn wrote:
I can't believe no one listened to me and took out Pyrr. I did Too bad I'm not good at this game tho...
comes with practice. I would really advise if you want to learn to
A) read the few stickies we have and replies in said threads
B) choose a respected player, and go through games when they first started, then to the middle of their "player career" then move to the most recent ones. See how they grew and what they did
C) still confused, ask them questions. Most of us I think would be willing to offer insight on how to play if you have specific questions.
D) after all is said and done, develop a style of your own that best fits your skillset.
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On August 05 2010 14:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'( that it would be =( Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe
Bus Driver > Traitor > Mad Hatter
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On August 05 2010 16:17 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 14:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'( that it would be =( Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe Bus Driver > Traitor > Mad Hatter
Bus driver is only fun if your sole role is to just create chaos.
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On August 05 2010 16:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:17 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 14:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'( that it would be =( Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe Bus Driver > Traitor > Mad Hatter Bus driver is only fun if your sole role is to just create chaos.
Nop I had fun too and my goal wasn't to create chaos. The only thing that would've been more fun is if mafia had actually tried to double stack you on the last night there and tree.hugger died instead.
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On August 05 2010 16:21 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 16:17 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 14:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'( that it would be =( Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe Bus Driver > Traitor > Mad Hatter Bus driver is only fun if your sole role is to just create chaos. Nop I had fun too and my goal wasn't to create chaos. The only thing that would've been more fun is if mafia had actually tried to double stack you on the last night there and tree.hugger died instead.
I would have laughed pretty hard. I think the overall read you and I had of red players that game was fairly solid =)
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On August 05 2010 16:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:21 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 16:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 16:17 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 14:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'( that it would be =( Traitor is the single best role in mafia though, hehe Bus Driver > Traitor > Mad Hatter Bus driver is only fun if your sole role is to just create chaos. Nop I had fun too and my goal wasn't to create chaos. The only thing that would've been more fun is if mafia had actually tried to double stack you on the last night there and tree.hugger died instead. I would have laughed pretty hard. I think the overall read you and I had of red players that game was fairly solid =)
Except I missed Iaaan oh well.
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On August 05 2010 12:04 Ace wrote:
meh, I just think if given the choice I'd rather take a 1 shot vigilante over a hatter any day. Way stronger and more useful since they can confirm themselves without dying.
Having been a one-shot vigilante and a mad hatter (which were the most stressful games ever - I have no idea why people want to be blue when they can be wonderfully, comfortably, and expendably green), I definitely agree that the one-shot vigi role is much stronger. But the very strength of the role becomes its weakness, from a game-host standpoint. The fewer strong roles in a game that lead to confirmed innocents, united townies, and easy Mafia-sniping, the more chaos and drama gets stirred up in the game, and the more fun it is.
It's kind of like saying detectives with votechecks are stronger than detectives without them. Votechecks were so strong and useful, in fact, that they had to be taken out. I think this same reasoning is why Qatol keeps insisting on including mad hatters instead of vigilantes. They're still a townie-with-KP role, but much less likely to lead to an easy victory, because they only get confirmed when they die.
Also...
On August 05 2010 12:01 flamewheel wrote:
dreamflower imba!
I loved reading that game.
Flamewheel, you're cute.  (Always wanted to say that.) Keep up the kitten pictures in Mafia XXX!
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On August 05 2010 15:59 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^. There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch. And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled. Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons: 1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly. 2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch. 3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying. In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem. If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan. So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone. Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book. Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day. It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open. I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them. So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea. And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong. First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role. Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright. Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry. Show nested quote +For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help. Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy. Whatever, I will drop it. If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you.
I never claimed the plan was "awesome", only that it improved the position of the town by at the very least surfacing a red counter claim. To your specific objections:
1. If you are a hatter and you see someone ask for DT role-claims, the best play is NOT be to stay silent and use your bombs, it is to prevent the role-claims right there by coming clean. Again, it's a matter of the hatter being a mafia player first and a blue role second. The bombs aren't everything -surfacing a red and protecting the DTs are well worth coming out of hiding for. Conversely, if a hatter comes out in this situation and there is no counter-claim, I would be very much inclined to trust them.
2. On the DT multiple claims: if I were red it would make no sense to fabricate multiple claims. The goal would be to make the process look "smooth" and gain the trust of the DTs. Coming up with stories about multiple claims destroys this trust, raises question marks, and increases the likelihood of getting lynched. It doesn't make any sense.
3. On your last comment - this is what you originally said:
mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red.
If the mafia used a red as a "mouth" the plan already worked! Remember the goal was to generate additional information.
At any rate, thanks to you and Ace for at least trying to think this through, rather than just throwing around the word "hole" without any actual arguments.
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On August 05 2010 16:12 Misder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 14:21 DarthThienAn wrote:
I can't believe no one listened to me and took out Pyrr. I did Too bad I'm not good at this game tho...
posting more than once a week is a step in the right direction!
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On August 05 2010 14:30 Ace wrote:
I'm not a fan of easily confirmed roles either, just that if there was a better way for Hatters to confirm themselves at all besides death I'd probably like them more. Could be too broken though :'(
I'd rather the KP role not be able to confirm themselves except through something harder than the Medic's "make a save" because the KP roles are just naturally incredibly strong if used well and don't need to be even stronger. Because I haven't been able to think of a mechanic like that, I just argue for Hatters over Vigis for the town KP role.
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On August 05 2010 23:00 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 15:59 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^. There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch. And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled. Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons: 1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly. 2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch. 3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying. In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem. If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan. So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone. Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book. Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day. It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open. I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them. So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea. And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong. First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role. Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright. Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole. On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help. Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy. Whatever, I will drop it. If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you. I never claimed the plan was "awesome", only that it improved the position of the town by at the very least surfacing a red counter claim. To your specific objections: 1. If you are a hatter and you see someone ask for DT role-claims, the best play is NOT be to stay silent and use your bombs, it is to prevent the role-claims right there by coming clean. Again, it's a matter of the hatter being a mafia player first and a blue role second. The bombs aren't everything -surfacing a red and protecting the DTs are well worth coming out of hiding for. Conversely, if a hatter comes out in this situation and there is no counter-claim, I would be very much inclined to trust them. 2. On the DT multiple claims: if I were red it would make no sense to fabricate multiple claims. The goal would be to make the process look "smooth" and gain the trust of the DTs. Coming up with stories about multiple claims destroys this trust, raises question marks, and increases the likelihood of getting lynched. It doesn't make any sense. 3. On your last comment - this is what you originally said: Show nested quote +mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. If the mafia used a red as a "mouth" the plan already worked! Remember the goal was to generate additional information. At any rate, thanks to you and Ace for at least trying to think this through, rather than just throwing around the word "hole" without any actual arguments.
I think when you have full information of your claim, as you did, it's easier to come to these conclusions. But when you're a towny with partial to no information (e.g. not in any PM circle), there becomes a lot less of a motivation to trust plans like this since PM circles are apt to go awry (see: every PM game ever on TL)
I know tree.hugger and I debated in several pretty long PMs about your whole claim plan thing, and basically we came down to 4 conclusions:
1) it wasn't as safe as you made it sound
2) if citizen is red and lying, this is the kind of ballsy playstyle we've seen from him before
3) southrawrea is not the kind of player youd send in to do a false claim (WHOOPS LOL)
4) this game is fucked
obviously in hindsight these conclusions were wrong, except for #4, and i should have switched my vote because i was starting to realize this before the day was over and your final posts were cementing you as town. but i decided to stick w/ my guns; i'd already laid my rep on the line anyway. also, unfortunately, your inactivity didn't help your case :\
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On August 05 2010 23:00 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 15:59 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^. There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch. And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled. Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons: 1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly. 2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch. 3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying. In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem. If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan. So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone. Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book. Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day. It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open. I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them. So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea. And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong. First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role. Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright. Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole. On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help. Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy. Whatever, I will drop it. If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you. I never claimed the plan was "awesome", only that it improved the position of the town by at the very least surfacing a red counter claim. To your specific objections: 1. If you are a hatter and you see someone ask for DT role-claims, the best play is NOT be to stay silent and use your bombs, it is to prevent the role-claims right there by coming clean. Again, it's a matter of the hatter being a mafia player first and a blue role second. The bombs aren't everything -surfacing a red and protecting the DTs are well worth coming out of hiding for. Conversely, if a hatter comes out in this situation and there is no counter-claim, I would be very much inclined to trust them. 2. On the DT multiple claims: if I were red it would make no sense to fabricate multiple claims. The goal would be to make the process look "smooth" and gain the trust of the DTs. Coming up with stories about multiple claims destroys this trust, raises question marks, and increases the likelihood of getting lynched. It doesn't make any sense. 3. On your last comment - this is what you originally said: Show nested quote +mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. If the mafia used a red as a "mouth" the plan already worked! Remember the goal was to generate additional information. At any rate, thanks to you and Ace for at least trying to think this through, rather than just throwing around the word "hole" without any actual arguments.
1. You're making the assumption that it is logical and optimal for DT's to claim in this situation. I have just proven why its not, simply that "hatter" isn't confirmed. From the logical point of view, you just don't claim. You never claim to unconfirmed players.
2. Your conclusion there is contradictory! You say that if you were red, bringing up multiple roleclaims makes you suspicious,raises question marks, and destroys trust, and therefore doesn't make sense, but then you say that obviously you are green since there are multiple roleclaims. Contradictory and doesn't make any sense. WIFOM anyone?
3. Additional information. But at what cost? You've outed a mafia, but you don't know who it is. Could potentially be ANY one of the mouths, or ANY one of the DTs hiding behind them. It takes too much time/effort to find which one is the correct mafia in this instance. And meanwhile, the town is focused on this situation. If mafia play it smart, they don't have to give out any more information for the next few days, as town is scrambling to find the mafia among the DTs. Too much chaos is caused simply for 1 red. And you also have the chance that you off a real DT too.
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On August 05 2010 13:25 BrownBear wrote:
Yeah, because TL townplay is weak. There's a way to play Hatter correctly, and it does not involve placing a bomb every night.
wouldn't placing nights 1 and 2 be in line with the accepted theory that a random lynch is better than a no lynch on day 1?
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On August 06 2010 04:45 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 13:25 BrownBear wrote:
Yeah, because TL townplay is weak. There's a way to play Hatter correctly, and it does not involve placing a bomb every night. wouldn't placing nights 1 and 2 be in line with the accepted theory that a random lynch is better than a no lynch on day 1?
i don't think it's really comparable. the reason no lynch sucks is that you've basically taken the day limit for town to win and subtracted 1 from it without learning anything at all. it's also unreliable because if someone isn't there to move their previous vote to abstain, or a mafia or two throw some votes, then someone gets lynched (unless majority ruling style is in effect).
whereas when the hatter is placing his bombs, they don't do anything unless he dies which is usually much later then day 1. it also means if someone comes up innocent you might not have time to move your bomb off of them since you only can do 1 action per night of placing / moving a bomb so there are disadvantages to placing bombs as soon as possible.
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EPT
