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On August 05 2010 10:45 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:
I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.
So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.
And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm* Thus proving the valuable asset of reading. Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored. Maybe it was due to the way I presented it (this being my second game) but I was not trying to say there were 3 legitimate claims, but only 2. and that you had told both legitimate claimers that there were 3 so they would be forced to reveal their corresponding DTs instead of just linking the mouths. The mafia would want this since killing the DTs would be better than trying to off the mouths.
But that's just the point: if there were 3 claims, one had to be from the mafia. AKA I was not mafia.
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On August 05 2010 10:46 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:45 rastaban wrote:On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:
I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.
So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.
And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm* Thus proving the valuable asset of reading. Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored. Maybe it was due to the way I presented it (this being my second game) but I was not trying to say there were 3 legitimate claims, but only 2. and that you had told both legitimate claimers that there were 3 so they would be forced to reveal their corresponding DTs instead of just linking the mouths. The mafia would want this since killing the DTs would be better than trying to off the mouths. But that's just the point: if there were 3 claims, one had to be from the mafia. AKA I was not mafia.
But I was arguing there were only 2 claims, and your DT never existed because you were actually mafia trying to flush them out.
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On August 05 2010 10:48 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:46 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:45 rastaban wrote:On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:
I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.
So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.
And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm* Thus proving the valuable asset of reading. Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored. Maybe it was due to the way I presented it (this being my second game) but I was not trying to say there were 3 legitimate claims, but only 2. and that you had told both legitimate claimers that there were 3 so they would be forced to reveal their corresponding DTs instead of just linking the mouths. The mafia would want this since killing the DTs would be better than trying to off the mouths. But that's just the point: if there were 3 claims, one had to be from the mafia. AKA I was not mafia. But I was arguing there were only 2 claims, and your DT never existed because you were actually mafia trying to flush them out.
There I would actually start to suspect you only because you're still just assuming its all because he's mafia. Since citizen didn't tell anyone, besides us, that means he didn't "fabricate anything."
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On August 05 2010 10:50 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:48 rastaban wrote:On August 05 2010 10:46 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:45 rastaban wrote:On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:
I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.
So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.
And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted. That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm* Thus proving the valuable asset of reading. Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored. Maybe it was due to the way I presented it (this being my second game) but I was not trying to say there were 3 legitimate claims, but only 2. and that you had told both legitimate claimers that there were 3 so they would be forced to reveal their corresponding DTs instead of just linking the mouths. The mafia would want this since killing the DTs would be better than trying to off the mouths. But that's just the point: if there were 3 claims, one had to be from the mafia. AKA I was not mafia. But I was arguing there were only 2 claims, and your DT never existed because you were actually mafia trying to flush them out. There I would actually start to suspect you only because you're still just assuming its all because he's mafia. Since citizen didn't tell anyone, besides us, that means he didn't "fabricate anything."
Well the argument was that he asked for us all to hand over the names of the DTs in that post so he could find the real DT. This is what the mafia would want, the names of the actual DTs since the mouths doesn't net them much.
In the PM sent he states for us to give him the names of our DTs when we are ready.
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True, I was going off the information we knew in the thread from Pandain - it was him, Sub, and you. I would have pushed for your lynch if I'd been thinking, just because it would have gotten you defending yourself/creating content/possibly slipping up somewhere.
And usually, in a closed circle, it's easy-ish to find the leak.
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On August 05 2010 10:52 BrownBear wrote:
True, I was going off the information we knew in the thread from Pandain - it was him, Sub, and you. I would have pushed for your lynch if I'd been thinking, just because it would have gotten you defending yourself/creating content/possibly slipping up somewhere.
And usually, in a closed circle, it's easy-ish to find the leak.
To be honest, I would have not been mentioned for the longest time had Subversion not posted after death about it.
Regardless, defending is the easiest thing to do. Townspeople know nothing, and therefore they are expected to come up with nothing.
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@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust?
Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there?  . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/
ETA: Also while the plan was bad, the result was good and I think I agreed with that sentiment in PMs. BC and rastaban got outted, and Brownbear is correct that reading back and looking at how the other DT circle got broken Protact was the last person in the circle alive after Pandain's death. I'm not blaming you as if you lost the town the game, I just don't think Town fake claims work out in a situation where you don't have a guilty result or a confirmed townie in the open.
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On July 29 2010 04:39 zeks wrote:
I require an analysis on Infundibulum. I believe he is a strong candidate for tomorrows lynch.
The other lynch is guaranteed to be Pandain - given that I live past tonights hits
So anyone know whether mafia has 3 kills to use ? 2kp + IT?
I now have all blue claims tyvm
If Pandain flips miller - Protact is scum. I believe thats all the people Subversion has told right? lol
I mean who else would've leaked out Subversion's role
Pandain being miller was really icing on the fucking cake
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i actually had siniquity's claim
but it was my fault for not trusting him enough to get him to protect lakris
i told him to wait for my instructions for protection and i ended up not giving him a name so i expected him to not protect anyone at all
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On August 05 2010 10:58 Ace wrote:@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust? Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there? . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/
Yes!
This was what I expected to happen: the mafia will not panic and give up THREE players (this was success beyond my wildest dream). I though it more likely there would be no counter claim, relying on blue-sniping instead. Remember, without a counter-claim I would not get lynched, I'd be confirmed as the 2nd KP role. We'd just coordinate DT checks and medic protection from then on... the usual circle thing...
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Damn I suck 
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On August 05 2010 11:10 youngminii wrote:Damn I suck
Too impulsive... like me, but you will never change your mind afterwards lol.
Take like 2 minutes to step back and reconsider from all viewpoints and you will be alot better.
Where you gonna post your dance btw? :p
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Dw I'll go back and revise my play.
And uhh, I'll make it eventually
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On August 05 2010 11:10 youngminii wrote:Damn I suck
I have a quote for you when you're telling me you're a better player because you did not get DarthThienAn lynched!
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On August 05 2010 11:15 youngminii wrote:Dw I'll go back and revise my play. And uhh, I'll make it eventually
I really wished that chaoser had been scum because your play reminded me of this. Focusing on Scum
When I did my post analysis of Chaoser I noticed that he and I had played almost identically, I was hoping I wouldn't get called on it due to the shortage of time and him being defensive.
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If I had lived one more day, I would've tried to lynch you rastaban, but then I had absolutely no clue on Protactinium and would've lost anyways.
Oh well, whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
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My last goal has been completed.
Time to depart back into the shadows.
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On August 05 2010 11:25 youngminii wrote:
If I had lived one more day, I would've tried to lynch you rastaban, but then I had absolutely no clue on Protactinium and would've lost anyways.
Oh well, whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
my final list was proct/pyrr/opz, that i posted somewhere. If you'd have gotten rasta killed we would have won almost certainly. It's just since he lived he convinced me that chaoser would be an alright lynch target for the day since i was way too lazy to go through pyrr's or procts post history and find real evidence like he did against chaoser.
i literally opened up their historys and went 'haha fuck this' then went outside. Sigh lazyness makes me sad
so i had the other 2/3 covered bro
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siniquity probably protected xelin since xelin fake-claimed DT to me on Day 2
I probably should have told him to move his protect =/
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EPT
