TL Mafia XXVIII - Page 187

On August 05 2010 09:13 Incognito wrote:


d3 didn't seem to care or have any serious analysis

On August 05 2010 09:05 Pandain wrote:


No offense, but I think that got ruined when you told the whole town you were vet lol.

On August 05 2010 09:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Lesson learned: Pyrr should always die first.

On August 05 2010 09:37 Incognito wrote:
I want to see a game where foolishness survives past day 1 when hes NOT mafia.

On August 05 2010 09:40 Divinek wrote:



i think that requires him and radfield being in the same game, and both not red

On August 05 2010 10:08 SouthRawrea wrote:
Woooo that was fun.

On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:


Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons:

1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly.
2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch.
3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying.

In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem.

If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan.

So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone.

On August 05 2010 10:23 BrownBear wrote:
POST GAME THOUGHTS:

I've already discussed my play, now I want to bring up the play of the town. Overall, town played terribly this game. There was not any one person who was super super bad and ruined it for us, it was our game to lose and we blew it. Here 4 points Pandain mentioned where town got screwed:





Some of these were unfortunate coincidences. Some of these were us utterly failing.

1) Infiltration of DT circle.

It had been posted many many times that Pandain and Protact were in contact with subversion, after sub's death. When Pandain flipped miller, town should have immediately moved to lynch Protactinium. This is not based on anything that happened in the thread, this is based off of common sense. When a DT circle is infiltrated and the DT dies, you start lynching members of the circle until you catch the scum. We were basically handed Protactinium on a silver platter and nobody said anything other than "oh, we should think about this." D'oh ><

2) Xelin Attack

When Xelin posted that "LOL IM SUICIDE BOMMA" post in the thread, here's what should have happened:

a) zeks should have told another confirmed townie everything he knew (this happened, he told young, but young failed to pass it on to another confirmed townie, and then died the next night).
b) Everyone should have gotten as fucking far away from zeks as possible. He was the most obvious target, the center of a town circle, there was no way XeliN wasn't going to bomb him. People should have thought a lot more.
c) SINiquity shouldn't have fucking protected XeliN! That has to be the dumbest move all game. I really want to hear his logic, because right now I have to believe his logic train went like "hmm, xelin just claimed suicide bomber in the thread. I'M GOING TO PROTECT HIM AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS HURR DURR"
So yeah, that night was what turned it around for mafia. 5 townies dead in one night, ouch.

3) Sexy blue sniping

not much we could do here, mafia played almost picture-perfect. Moving on...

4) Medic protecting BC

Maybe I think this one was obvious, since at that point I was sure BC was red, but I don't know why Roffles protected him. Then, after Tricode got his shot blocked, people didn't ask questions, they just assumed Tricode would try to kill BC because of the meta going on there. This is an important lesson: even if there is a solid meta reason for something happening, look through the thread and see if you can't find an even better logical reason. Often the logical reason will trump the metagame reason.


...yeah. That sucked. Apart from those, there are a couple things:

1) youngminii throwing a temper tantrum and outing Pandain as a detective because voting didn't go the way he wanted. I'm sorry young, I know you're usually a good player, but this is inexcusable. You were green, under no circumstances should you be publically calling out a blue role unless they specifically ask you to. The fact that he was a mouth rather than the actual DT changes nothing, because you didn't know that. Regardless of what you thought of his plan, regardless of whether his play was dumb or smart, regardless of anything, you do not out a blue role. Unless you're mafia, of course. Or traitor. Then it's ok

2) d3's vote on me that ended the game. In a LYLO situation, you do not vote until you are 100% sure you are voting for a red. I was 100% sure rastaban was red, but I did have a contingency plan. When I voted, I stated I was probably going inactive for a while, this was actually a ploy. I was watching the thread very very closely. If I saw anyone stack on with little to no explanation, I would immediately have posted unvoting (I actually had the post ready to go), and throw FoS on that person. Then d3 came along, was like "LOL VOTE BROWNBEAR", and... you know the rest.

Yeah, I don't actually know which play was worse - SIN's mafia-medicness, young's "GRR IM ANGRY PANDAIN IS DT", or d3's game ending impulse vote.

These are just examples, and I'm in no way saying I'm mad at any of these players. I'm simply pointing out things you do not do in mafia. I've been guilty of really dumb play before (Team Melee Mini Mafia), and I learned from it, because everyone pointed it out. I loved playing with you all, even through your whoopsies, and this game was fun.

However, I do want to talk about the setup a bit.

People have already talked about some things (balance, KP, etc.) and I won't add on to that. I just want to post a couple logistical issues I had with this game:

1) If you are going to go inactive for large periods of time, please have a co-host who can post in your absence. A couple hours late once or twice is excusable. 28 hours late because you were playing Texas Hold-em is not. Sorry Bill, I <3 you, but it really frustrated me when that happened.

2) Please have a separate voting thread. If you insist on not doing so, at least make sure you can count votes properly, and please don't get angry at people when they try to count votes up when you aren't there. Actually, just have a separate voting thread. It's easier on all of us.

3) The day-ends-when-majority-is-reached rule is not a good rule. A fixed-hour day works much better, because people's minds can change in a 48-hour period. This setup is conducive to quick bandwagoning and gives mafia too much control over the day period, which is really supposed to be town's time to shine. The last lynch was the best example: 1 wrong vote, and mafia just bandwagoned town to death.


Bearies to come later. Long post. Tired.

On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:


I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.

So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.

And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.

On August 05 2010 10:29 rastaban wrote:


These are some good points but I disagree with the first, if it had been a closed circle then yeah, that might be legit, but when he died was there anyone who didn't already know he was DT? I mean Zeks PM to me was the sub was my DT and he pretty much outed him in the thread. The infiltration gave us good information on others but it only occurred because subversion had outed himself.

-----------------------------------------
Original Message:
a birdie told me your dt is Subversion

On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:


That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm*

Thus proving the valuable asset of reading.

On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:

Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored.

On August 05 2010 10:23 BrownBear wrote:
POST GAME THOUGHTS:

I've already discussed my play, now I want to bring up the play of the town. Overall, town played terribly this game. There was not any one person who was super super bad and ruined it for us, it was our game to lose and we blew it. Here 4 points Pandain mentioned where town got screwed:





Some of these were unfortunate coincidences. Some of these were us utterly failing.

1) Infiltration of DT circle.

It had been posted many many times that Pandain and Protact were in contact with subversion, after sub's death. When Pandain flipped miller, town should have immediately moved to lynch Protactinium. This is not based on anything that happened in the thread, this is based off of common sense. When a DT circle is infiltrated and the DT dies, you start lynching members of the circle until you catch the scum. We were basically handed Protactinium on a silver platter and nobody said anything other than "oh, we should think about this." D'oh ><