EPT-_________-
I hate you all.
Argh
Thank you BM...I always appreciate you modding. Just please man. Stick to the rules you start with. I'd Co-Mod for you next time if you need it...
TL Mafia XXVIII - Page 191
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
-_________- I hate you all. Argh Thank you BM...I always appreciate you modding. Just please man. Stick to the rules you start with. I'd Co-Mod for you next time if you need it... | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On August 06 2010 05:08 ~OpZ~ wrote: All I have to say is, Thank you D3 for not PMing me back. Argh...YOU SEE ME DIE!? So cruel and unusual. *sigh*...And I told you pyrr living was already an issue. Fail argument. And Rastban....argh....I really thought he could be town (notice in all my posts I had a question mark next to his name because I never trusted him) because BC mindfucking someone through PMs seems...very plausible. -_________- I hate you all. Argh Thank you BM...I always appreciate you modding. Just please man. Stick to the rules you start with. I'd Co-Mod for you next time if you need it... I am glad to have given you insight into the inner workings of my insanely messed up mind. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On August 05 2010 23:36 Qatol wrote: I'd rather the KP role not be able to confirm themselves except through something harder than the Medic's "make a save" because the KP roles are just naturally incredibly strong if used well and don't need to be even stronger. Because I haven't been able to think of a mechanic like that, I just argue for Hatters over Vigis for the town KP role. Vigis aren't easily confirmed, they just have a shot to do so unlike hatters ^_^. SKs fake Vigi claim and some scum try to do it also. The only "concrete" confirmed Vigi claim I can think of is during day someone claims Vigilante (fake) and the real Vigi pops them at night. No medics needed at all ^_^. @infundibulum: I'll go for a No Lynch over a Lynch all the time if the lynch isn't going to get us anywhere. Even without the role info someone who can act at night in favor of the town is bound to find out something useful. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
-__-...And yes. Protact, my last PM was claiming vet is stupid....I was going to claim vet that day, but d3 never pm'd me back. xD....I know I told you I was green, but that was the point. Yall would of probably would up hitting misder/brownbear/d3... | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
1. Yes, I think it was optimal for DT in that situation to send one and only one of the 2 people they checked as a messenger. The benefits far outweighed the costs, at that particular junction in the game. If I were a DT seeing this unfold I would not have hesitated. 2. You can choose to believe that a red in that position would fabricate those stories, but I don't see how any WIFOM benefits outweigh the risks. 3. Additional information. But at what cost? You've outed a mafia, but you don't know who it is. Could potentially be ANY one of the mouths, or ANY one of the DTs hiding behind them. It takes too much time/effort to find which one is the correct mafia in this instance. Actually, in the scenario you brought up (single fake claim = only 2 messengers), it takes a single night check to verify both messengers. Far better odds than checking people at random, no? For things to be more complicated there need to be more fake claims, exposing more reds - not a bad outcome for town (what in fact happened). Generally, I don't think any plan to be 100% proof - such a sure win path goes against the entire philosophy of mafia games. Good plans simply help their respective team improve their odds. I continue to think this was such a plan: low cost (a green that was likely dead anyway) and high potential benefits. All dependent of course of how other players chose to respond. I would do it again in a heartbeat. What is obvious from these conversations is that while this was a pro-town play to me/zeks/kris, it was not well understood or thought through by anyone else, be it other players or observers. For this reason I needed to be active that day, and that's all on me. | ||
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
On August 06 2010 05:08 ~OpZ~ wrote: All I have to say is, Thank you D3 for not PMing me back. Argh...YOU SEE ME DIE!? So cruel and unusual. *sigh*...And I told you pyrr living was already an issue. Fail argument. And Rastban....argh....I really thought he could be town (notice in all my posts I had a question mark next to his name because I never trusted him) because BC mindfucking someone through PMs seems...very plausible. -_________- I hate you all. Argh Thank you BM...I always appreciate you modding. Just please man. Stick to the rules you start with. I'd Co-Mod for you next time if you need it... TBH it was one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard considering they most likely knew my role already. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On August 05 2010 22:49 dreamflower wrote: Flamewheel, you're cute.  (Always wanted to say that.) Keep up the kitten pictures in Mafia XXX!^_^v Kittens are the best. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
The Bearies brought to you by Pandain, Dr. Pepper, Late Thursday nights, and Insomniacs, International. SECRET FRIENDSHIP BEARIE: for best secret PM alliance Goes to Pandain! Mostly because I had a lot of fun comparing ideas with him, and partially because he's just so darn amusing to PM with, lol. Plus, he uses the word “fadoodle”. It sucks that he had to die in the end, but I knew that our friendship was unbreakable, and I knew that he was in fact town (suck it Divinek  )V FOR VENDETTA BEARIE: for most badass terrorist act Goes to XeliN! He had the cojones to ADMIT IN THE THREAD that he was asploding one night, and still managed to take out 3 townies by himself. Mafia then stacked on, and the death total rose to 5, which was arguably a turning point in the game. Well done XeliN, you deserve the 49 virgins you received in the mafia afterlife. TYPHOID MARY BEARIE: For worst medic Goes to SINiquity! SIN acted as a mafia medic this game, and at the time it was frustrating. Now that I look back on it, it was hilarious! He protected every mafia member under the sun. Then, when XeliN proceeded to start his brief reign of badassery and terror, SINiquity protected him. Yep. Protected the guy who just claimed Suicide Bomber. BRILLIANT! ITCHY TRIGGER FINGER BEARIE: For worst impulse vote Goes to d3_crescentia! His decision to randomly impulse vote for me on the last day ended the game when Mafia piled on. Enough said. RADFIELD JR. BEARIE: For most hard-luck player Well, I'm told by flamewheel that this should actually be Radfield Sr. Bearie, but whatever. It goes to Foolishness, who had this entire game made for him – only to get whacked night 1. Ouch, that has got to hurt. I'm sorry, man! BELKAR BITTERLEAF BEARIE: For the most chaotic player Goes to BloodyC0bbler! He caused untold amounts of chaos in the town. Once he got rid of Foolishness, Roffles, and the other big-name players, he was free to romp. And romp he did. He almost talked himself out of a situation where he got lynched (and he could have, if not for majority lynch + hardheaded players like me, lol). He got citi.zen lynched in an unfavorable situation to him. He managed to protect rastaban. He did everything a GF should do, and did it right. Well done, sir! 4CHAN BEARIE: For new meme: “It's iNfuNdiBuLuM.” That's all for now folks! Sorry they're abbreviated this game, but I am tired. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On August 06 2010 06:08 citi.zen wrote: @ Incognito: 1. Yes, I think it was optimal for DT in that situation to send one and only one of the 2 people they checked as a messenger. The benefits far outweighed the costs, at that particular junction in the game. If I were a DT seeing this unfold I would not have hesitated. 2. You can choose to believe that a red in that position would fabricate those stories, but I don't see how any WIFOM benefits outweigh the risks. 3. Actually, in the scenario you brought up (single fake claim = only 2 messengers), it takes a single night check to verify both messengers. Far better odds than checking people at random, no? For things to be more complicated there need to be more fake claims, exposing more reds - not a bad outcome for town (what in fact happened). Generally, I don't think any plan to be 100% proof - such a sure win path goes against the entire philosophy of mafia games. Good plans simply help their respective team improve their odds. I continue to think this was such a plan: low cost (a green that was likely dead anyway) and high potential benefits. All dependent of course of how other players chose to respond. I would do it again in a heartbeat. What is obvious from these conversations is that while this was a pro-town play to me/zeks/kris, it was not well understood or thought through by anyone else, be it other players or observers. For this reason I needed to be active that day, and that's all on me. 1. YOU think it was optimal. Unfortunately others disagree. Which would screw up your whole plan, say, if a DT decided it wasn't optimal and a mafia fakeclaimed? Oops town is screwed. Going back to fake mouth etc. etc. Also the more you expose town circles, the more chance mafia has to infiltrate. Look at this game. The remaining blues offed in one night. I think you overestimate the power of town circles. Especially when you can't trust your DT information, which is the whole point of the town circle anyway. DTs are still powerful on their own and don't need an overmind that controls all their hits if theres a possibility that said overmind is mafia. 2. Thats exactly the type of attitude mafia wants to see from town when they fake claim hatter Keep pushing your agenda like you are now and complacency/bad things will happen.3. Ok fine. Single fake claim is 2 messengers and 3 "DT"s. You don't even know if your "DT" is confirmed. You're just assuming it since he told you you were townie. It takes more than one check to verify both messengers. Because what if mafia didn't claim fake DT mouth? What if they claimed fake DT? Still only 1 red name out there in the open, and you're still scrambling for information. You're saying that when two mouths A and B claim, one of them is red so you check A, he flips green, and you lynch B? Not so, as when B flips green, you just lost contact with B's DT. What if B's DT was mafia? Can't check any of the 3 DTs or messengers with certainty. Yeah, from YOUR point of view, you know that you're clean, so you know that the worst case scenario is you die (its not, tons of other mafia infiltration/bad information can happen). Unfortunately, again, town has no reason to believe you're town. As far as town is concerned, more bad things can happen than you outline. The problem here is that you're assessing your plan from your point of view. If you remove the assumptions based on what you know, things look a whole lot different. Like Ace said, "It's not what you know, it's what you can convince people to believe". And you can't convince people to believe something based on assumptions they cannot prove. Your plan also requires everyone to be on board for it to have maximum effect. Otherwise, the assumptions crumble (see #1) and your plan is left in shambles, with more downsides now than upsides. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
For example, you say You don't even know if your "DT" is confirmed. You're just assuming it since he told you you were townie. This is inaccurate... as I explained previously I knew with a very hight likelihood my DT was clear: I personally chose the night 2 check target (zeks), and he got it right. Now, I could have been approached by a red and chosen another red to check by chance, but I liked my chances. You can believe the correct play in my position was to wait and further "confirm" my DT. The alternative was no better though: lynch someone based on inactivity or post analysis (I would have incorrectly pushed for misder or someone similar). We had no firm lead at that time and the mafia had two attempts to snipe blues every night. Zeks, kris and myself had these conversations before going public and decided the risks were well worth the rewards in this situation. And yeah, the plan, like any plan, required people to be on board, or at the very least act a bit more rationally. Again, you had to be in the game and pay attention to the details, but the other DT's circle was infiltrated, a vet randomly roleclaimed to BC in PMs and the vigi blindly trusted BC and told him everything on AIM. Even after I flipped red nobody went back to check the posts from the day - smart people had made transparently bad arguments, why else do you think I was sure BC was the GF? Whatever :-) | ||
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zeks
Canada1068 Posts
Its also about trust - laying out possibilities and probabilities. Townies ain't going to be able to win without communication and teamwork. Not everyones going to be a DT and have rolechecks to 100% confirm someone - for those that aren't DT you have to draw the line on who's reliable and who's not. I think eventually everyone should be reaching out to someone during the duration of the game. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On August 06 2010 22:14 zeks wrote: As much as this game is about analyzing and question everything Its also about trust - laying out possibilities and probabilities. Townies ain't going to be able to win without communication and teamwork. Not everyones going to be a DT and have rolechecks to 100% confirm someone - for those that aren't DT you have to draw the line on who's reliable and who's not. I think eventually everyone should be reaching out to someone during the duration of the game. Right. Not even "trust", it's "calculated risk". This is what everyone does in every single mafia game, Incognito included. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On August 06 2010 21:18 citi.zen wrote: If you were in the game you'd be more aware of the details, otherwise we're in danger of talking past each other. For example, you say This is inaccurate... as I explained previously I knew with a very hight likelihood my DT was clear: I personally chose the night 2 check target (zeks), and he got it right. Now, I could have been approached by a red and chosen another red to check by chance, but I liked my chances. You can believe the correct play in my position was to wait and further "confirm" my DT. The alternative was no better though: lynch someone based on inactivity or post analysis (I would have incorrectly pushed for misder or someone similar). We had no firm lead at that time and the mafia had two attempts to snipe blues every night. Zeks, kris and myself had these conversations before going public and decided the risks were well worth the rewards in this situation. And yeah, the plan, like any plan, required people to be on board, or at the very least act a bit more Whatever :-) Ok, one semi-confirmed DT, but that doesn't really invalidate the rest of my points. Even though it didn't happen, you couldn't know that the fake claimer was GF. Even if they were just plain mafia, you'd still need more than 1 check to confirm. Not to mention asking the mouths to reveal their DTs for check, which definitely isn't going to happen. I was sure BC was the GF is not an argument. Sure, you can correctly pin BC as mafia, but not as GF. In my game as mafia we made BM GF, not me as you might assume, so really you just can't know. I assume since you didn't respond to my other points they are still valid. Before the claim, BC was already pushing South on the chopping block for lynch, so that would've been a decent alternative. Not to mention that BC was on a lot of people's suspicious lists. I don't think town was as clueless as you make them out to be. Maybe you would've done harm leading the town by pushing Misder, but others had other ideas. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On August 06 2010 22:29 citi.zen wrote: Right. Not even "trust", it's "calculated risk". This is what everyone does in every single mafia game, Incognito included. In this case, your calculations were wrong, primarily based on the assumptions of what other people would/should do. Also, there are different degrees to calculated risk. Plans like the one you came up with are huge and can swing the game in either direction. When the range of results is that huge, there will be people who will oppose you. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Simple question: if you, Incognito, are a the real hatter in this game, and a red (myself for example) claims to be the real hatter, asking for PM role claims. The town seems to trust him. Do you, Incognito, come clean immediately, or stay quiet waiting to place your bomb, at the risk that the DTs and other blue roles will be exposed?What play do you think helps and/or hurts the town more? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On August 06 2010 22:29 citi.zen wrote: Right. Not even "trust", it's "calculated risk". This is what everyone does in every single mafia game, Incognito included. Not I! I just don't PM people in PM games because I realized most people are terrible. But I think given the circumstances of this game even though I think your plan was bad I recognize you had to take a major leap and try something instead of waiting for the Mafia rape train. In retrospect that something is better than nothing. I just wish there was an easier way for you to do it without lying. Especially if you caught a red to gain trust since imo thats the only way people will listen to you ^_^. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On August 06 2010 15:59 BrownBear wrote: THE BEARIES! The Bearies brought to you by Pandain, Dr. Pepper, Late Thursday nights, and Insomniacs, International. BELKAR BITTERLEAF BEARIE: For the most chaotic player Goes to BloodyC0bbler! He caused untold amounts of chaos in the town. Once he got rid of Foolishness, Roffles, and the other big-name players, he was free to romp. And romp he did. He almost talked himself out of a situation where he got lynched (and he could have, if not for majority lynch + hardheaded players like me, lol). He got citi.zen lynched in an unfavorable situation to him. He managed to protect rastaban. He did everything a GF should do, and did it right. Well done, sir! 4CHAN BEARIE: For new meme: “It's iNfuNdiBuLuM.” That's all for now folks! Sorry they're abbreviated this game, but I am tired. Belkar is perhaps the coolest character on order of the stick. I proudly accept that bearie. Glad you enjoyed the chaotic show. | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On August 07 2010 08:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Belkar is perhaps the coolest character on order of the stick. I proudly accept that bearie. Glad you enjoyed the chaotic show. I am so jealous, my new goal in life will be to get a sexy shoeless god of war bearie as well! | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On August 07 2010 08:41 rastaban wrote: I am so jealous, my new goal in life will be to get a sexy shoeless god of war bearie as well! I need a kolbold hat now | ||
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