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On July 01 2010 13:41 YellowInk wrote:
@ proper use of roleblockers discussion
Right now, if I were a roleblocker, I would be targeting Korynne, L, BM, or someone I deemed a strong player. As I stated earlier, if I were godfather, I would have gone ahead and recruited a strong player on night 0. If you block one of us and find that the night hit was blocked, you may have just found yourself some scum. Until the godfather is dead, you can use that person as a block target every other night to reduce the hits. Once the godfather is dead you may want to claim and finger depending on the circumstances - though of course blocking someone and no night kill could mean a medic or another roleblocker or a vet, so this isn't 100% of course.
My declaring this strategy will probably also make it less likely he wants to recruit the top players almost as effectively as town declaring to lynch top players. Once the role blocker passes through the top players they will have cleared some number of us (at least for the time being). It's just a WIFOM game as to whether the godfather will try to target any more of us. But if he does, at least you'll be on to us and be able to point us out when the godfather goes down.
Great post, I think this is a good idea. Since we are forced to lynch every day we can combine the 2 methods, Lynch the inactives while RBing the top players.
One thing to note, there is no medic in this game. We could have a jailer, who does much the same but also blocks recruiting and other abilities.
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I'd like to direct your attention to:
5. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain. Vote, or be modkilled.
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On July 01 2010 13:41 BrownBear wrote:
Given that the two best mafia players on the site aren't in this game (although one is hosting), it's possible that we might be able to catch people saying nothing, or catch them slipping up.
If you mean me, I think you give me too much credit.
On July 01 2010 13:42 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:31 DarthThienAn wrote:On July 01 2010 13:21 DCLXVI wrote:
question - we still have to vote in the other thread to not get modkilled unless we can vote on no lynch - is that possible?
Also, is there a list of these basic rules that never appear in the OP of games?
Yes, you have to vote in the other thread to avoid being modkilled. No, you cannot vote for no lynch.
What basic rules are you looking for? I think the OP covers everything o.O.
questions like this and the ones I've asked in other games. weird situational questions I suppose. Like, can the mafia choose not to kill (answered:yes) I didn't see either of these in any OP for a game, maybe I'm going blind...
That particular question is totally in the OP for this game.
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On July 01 2010 13:45 BrownBear wrote:
Better idea, Korynne: We roleblock someone, and nobody dies, we keep them ALIVE and roleblock them every night. Get the roleblocker to claim in the thread, have medics protect him, and mafia is rendered completely ineffective.
We can't roleblock them every night. This would only work if we found two people who are mafia. I say chances are low so that idea scrapped. Otherwise it would be fantastic.
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Alright, just one last word before I head out for a few hours. The best thing every single town aligned person can do is talk. The preference is to talk productively - we're not going to find the godfather or scum today unless we get super lucky. This is the day you can trust almost every single person around you. Make plans. Talk about how the setup works.
If you don't talk in a productive manner, you will be lynched. I will be grading you.
Furthermore, if your 'productivity' slacks off later in the game it could be because you've been recruited. If we don't have a strong baseline for good activity right now, we won't be able to read it later in the game. Either way we lynch you.
So everyone needs to voice their thoughts and provide new ideas. Every single one of you.
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ahh, i didn't realize we didn't have medics.
Plus, we can roleblock someone twice in a row, so there's no reason not to keep them alive at least once and then roleblock them again.
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On July 01 2010 13:46 Korynne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:41 youngminii wrote:
Wait what's stopping scum from still performing NKs?
You're not understanding my scenario. The mafia keeps killing and GF recruits everyone that was previously roleblocked. Once the roleblocker finally reaches scum, there will already be quite a few mafia. Also, if the roleblocker is NK'd then yeah we'd be sitting on our asses letting someone that's dead do something.
Also, there must ALWAYS be a lynch. You can't no lynch. I don't get it. If scum keeps performing NKs that means that the guy we roleblocked is not mafia. So we shouldn't have killed him that night anyway. Sure GF can recruit everyone that was previously roleblocked, but that's no better or worse than recruiting someone else. The whole idea is that they're not confirmed townies. The plan doesn't make us not lynch townies, it makes us ALWAYS LYNCH MAFIA.
It's not that we have an 'extra townie'.
You're simply delaying the game. You're getting a rubber band, stretching it out and claiming that it's a better rubber band than the original because it's longer.
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On July 01 2010 13:47 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:41 BrownBear wrote:
Given that the two best mafia players on the site aren't in this game (although one is hosting), it's possible that we might be able to catch people saying nothing, or catch them slipping up.
If you mean me, I think you give me too much credit.
I go by what I've seen, man 
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Alright, I am currently placing a vote on Elyas, because he has yet to post, and I want him to. My vote will change if he posts and I notice it before day 1 deadline (highly likely, given that I check this pretty regularly).
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On July 01 2010 13:48 BrownBear wrote:
ahh, i didn't realize we didn't have medics.
Plus, we can roleblock someone twice in a row, so there's no reason not to keep them alive at least once and then roleblock them again.
oh! Jailer acts as medic, I was wrong
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I see, someone will always be lynched. In that case we pseudovote in this thread for mafia, and vote in the other thread for godfather. So whenever no NK happens, we kill the mafia the next day. If NK happens, then we just lynch whoever we think is likely to be GF the next day.
Also roleblocking top players is lame YellowInk. FoS on you. That means all the best players can't use their roles... so the potentially good jailkeeper/detective/etc. can't do their thing... good job. Besides mafia can then get our top players killed by not killing at night (since they probably want to kill the top players anyway if they can't recruit them). So like, not good. And we'd have to be continuously roleblocking the top players, not just once and it's done with.
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By the way, I still do think it's important to decide who gets roleblocked.
This allows the blues not to perform their actions on that person, hence saving a possible waste of a turn.
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On July 01 2010 13:50 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:46 Korynne wrote:On July 01 2010 13:41 youngminii wrote:
Wait what's stopping scum from still performing NKs?
You're not understanding my scenario. The mafia keeps killing and GF recruits everyone that was previously roleblocked. Once the roleblocker finally reaches scum, there will already be quite a few mafia. Also, if the roleblocker is NK'd then yeah we'd be sitting on our asses letting someone that's dead do something.
Also, there must ALWAYS be a lynch. You can't no lynch. I don't get it. If scum keeps performing NKs that means that the guy we roleblocked is not mafia. So we shouldn't have killed him that night anyway. Sure GF can recruit everyone that was previously roleblocked, but that's no better or worse than recruiting someone else. The whole idea is that they're not confirmed townies. The plan doesn't make us not lynch townies, it makes us ALWAYS LYNCH MAFIA. It's not that we have an 'extra townie'. You're simply delaying the game. You're getting a rubber band, stretching it out and claiming that it's a better rubber band than the original because it's longer.
Since we have to lynch, it won't slow down the game but it will allow us to check 2 people a night
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On July 01 2010 13:43 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:35 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:25 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:16 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. I don't think this plan would work very well. Even if we did have a roleblocker on our side and we declared a target for him/her, we could not guarantee someone as town for more than a day. The godfather could always recruit the roleblocked person the next night. Also, can the mafia choose not to kill at night? If so then the mafia could choose not to kill when the roleblocked player is townie so that the town lynches the townie the next day and throws off our numbers for a bit. I don't understand why you say that the mafia have to sacrifice a night kill to kill the roleblocked guy, he is only safe for a day unless you plan on having him roleblocked for the whole game. That would hurt if he/she was a blue role and the chances that we have a roleblocker drop each day. This method uses our lynches to find the mafia, but unless we find the godfather we are just fighting a losing battle. Keeping the mafia numbers down is good though, so there is merit to this strategy. I suppose the longer the town can keep ahead of the mafia the more the godfather will have to say and the easier he/she will be found. Man, do I have to explain everything 5 times before people get it? xD It's not to declare that person as town, it's to not waste lynches on townies. At that point, they are not mafia, so at that point, killing them is lowering town power. We want to keep as many people around as possible. If mafia chooses not to kill that night, then they wasted a night kill! So instead of killing someone they choose, they have to not kill someone, so that the person we chose dies. That sounds like a pretty friggin awesome deal to me. We vote to roleblock one person every night, and we vote to lynch that person if no night kill went on at night. So at most 1 person dies per day/night cycle, which prolongs the game which should be good for townies. We're not really using lynches to find mafia as much as like, forcing mafia+town down to 1KP. And we never let a mafia go unlynched unless it's GF. This is a perfectly awesome idea unless we have no roleblocker or roleblocker is mafia'd. Umm... all of this is fine except the GF recruits another mafia each night so the KP is essentially 2. I don't understand how you think that the mafia not killing someone is a good thing in this scenario - we roleblock someone GF recruits (please not a blue role) no deaths show we lynch a townie overall we lose two townies with no chance of hitting a mafia. The only possible benefit is a lucky blue role like DT finding mafia Yes prolonging the game is a good thing, but not at the expense of having more mafia recruited while killing 0 of them. How are we not wasting lynches on townies in this situation? We are only killing townies. Can people please think for themselves instead of making me do all the thinking? -.- Think of a specific example if you don't get it. Now I'll do it for you. >_> Normal scenario: We lynch T, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night. We lynch M, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night This scenerio: We RB T, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie than normal (T) We RB T, mafia doesn't kill B at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie than normal (B) We RB M, mafia can't kill at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie and we killed the mafia (kept B, killed M) Why are there no lynches in the first day of this scenario? DTA just said that we cannot not lynch. So we do have to kill someone each day, which will either be a townie if the mafia did or did not kill, and a mafia if we roleblocked a mafia, who we could have lynched in the first place instead of relying on a filter that is slower, relies on the assumption of a role included, and kills mafia a day slowerOkay people? Use your brain!
and do you have to act so condescending?
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Korynne, what do you think about the slight modification to my plan (we can roleblock twice in a row, so if a roleblock happens and nobody dies, keep that person alive and roleblock them again, THEN lynch them the next day)?
This is all still assuming there's a roleblocker in the game, obviously. I've decided your idea is worth trying at least on night 1. If it fails, then it fails, and we don't do it again.
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Yeah, jailer = medic but better because that means roleblocker can't be recruited while mafia hasn't found jailer. But that's like equivalent to mafia trying to find roleblocker. So like, no difference other than outing another blue role.
Also, youngminii you're missing the point here.
Longer time = better for town because there is more information. That's like, accepted fact. The more time we have the better it is for town.
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Fun play makes me a very happy person. I love you darth.
On that note, there seem to be very few new players who I have not seen play, but could have been in other games, but I have played with a good amount of the roster. That being said, I put together a list of people who have played together. I know I would like to pick someone I was familiar with.
I think if you're mafia with someone, you get in contact a little more with them, and if they are cohesive, it should lead somewhere in this game. Havent gone to fr into it. If you see something I missed, got wrong, or want to go deeper, be my guest.
(R) = red role
+ Show Spoiler +
Game 2: L(R), Chezinu, AFJ, bum
Game 3: chezinu, bum
Ace MWorld: bum, Qatol
Resurrection: zeks, qatol
Game 4: bum, lakrismama(R), Qatol
Game 5: Qatol, bum, zeks
Game 7: Qatol(R), L
Game XII: L, Chezinu
Red Army: L, Chez(R)
Mini Mafia #1: Chez, Qatol
Smurf: lol not going to bother
Mafia XV: Chez(R), L(R)
Mini Mafia 2: L, Chezinu
Game XVIII: L, Chez, Abenson
Red army 2: L, Chez, BM, Abenson, citizen
Game XX: BM, L, Abenson, citizen
Game XIV: BM, Abenson, citizen
Micro: Abenson, citizen
Micro 2: L, BM
WaW: BM, L, Abenson, citizen
Steve Zizou: Korynne(R), brownbear, Abenson
Game 22: AFJ, BM(R), Abenson, Bear
PYPM: BM, citizen, L, Korynne, Qatol (what the hell happened)
3King: L, BM, Abenson, bear (I didnt understand this much...)
bang bang: L, Korynne, bear, chez, citizen(R)
game 26: bum(R), elyas, AFJ, DCL, zeks
game 27: L(R), chez(R), citizen, afj
Team Mini: BM+Chez, L, bum, korynne, yellow(R), DCL+divine, bear
# of times played with (again i probably missed things)
+ Show Spoiler +
L + Chez = 10(2R)
BM + Abenson = 6
L + BM = 6
Abenson + citizen = 5
BM + citizen = 5
L + citizen = 5
L + Aben = 5
Korynne + L = 3
Korynne + bear = 3
aben + bear= 3
chez + bum = 3
bum + Qatol = 3
chez + citizen = 3
Pretty interesting, but nothing to nail anything something down. Its just to find chains of things for blue roles to use if they hit gold, and for us to put soe method to our lynching if we have nothing. I don't know the state of any of the 'connections' besides my own. From what I gather, L is completely apathetic towards chezinu. Who knows, use this as you will.
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On July 01 2010 13:53 youngminii wrote:
By the way, I still do think it's important to decide who gets roleblocked.
This allows the blues not to perform their actions on that person, hence saving a possible waste of a turn.
Uh, wrong. Blues can still perform their actions on that person. If you are jailkeeper'd then blues waste their actions on you. But like, you don't want to let mafia know who's being jailkeepered.
So nevermind that idea.
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On July 01 2010 13:55 BrownBear wrote:
Korynne, what do you think about the slight modification to my plan (we can roleblock twice in a row, so if a roleblock happens and nobody dies, keep that person alive and roleblock them again, THEN lynch them the next day)?
This is all still assuming there's a roleblocker in the game, obviously. I've decided your idea is worth trying at least on night 1. If it fails, then it fails, and we don't do it again.
We can't role block twice in a row 
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Okay, so there's a few things I noted going through this that I figured some people kinda didn't realize while doing their analysis.
First off is this little tidbit from the rules post:
Starting Mafia KP: 1.
Starting means that number isn't going to stay at 1. If we fuck up our first few lynches and vig hits, we're going to hit a wall where mafia KP is just going to be too high to recover from. Between the recruitment, mafia kills and daily lynch, mafia have the ability to drop 3+ town votes per day. Assuming they play perfectly, mafia kill 2 people per day via lynch and night hit and gain 1 voting power per day. More dangerously, i'd assume that mafia gain a kp, either at 3 or 4 members. If 3 is kp=2, which we'll find out tomorrow, its possible that they move to kp=3 if they have a full 5 members. 5 members, however, would be a situation in which town has missed 4 subsequent lynches. 3 missed lynches is generally a loss condition in F11, so this isn't really that far off.
This means that by day 3, there are going to be 16 players alive, 4 of them mafia, 12 town. The day 4, we hit 5/8-9. At this point, unless we have hatters, vig and double lynches available and used properly, we lose unless we kill the godfather. This is assuming that the town kp isn't improperly placed, and that we don't double lynch inaccurately.
This means we need to figure out who the GF is by day 4 or we're boned, put simply, or hit goons one after another. Given this, if we have shitty leads on day 3, we might want to consider claims given the information we have, but not before then. Why not before then?
Well, its pretty simple:
If the Godfather is checked by a DT, do you return "Godfather"?
Yes, all DT checks are 100% (minus roleblock).
We can't let our DT(s) get recruited or killed early because they're the only non destructive way we have of identifying the GF.
Given the shitshow of a last game, I'd like to be able to have our day 1 lynch proceed smoothly. Because of that, I want to know what people think about the following idea; We have one of the two masons claim. Given that we have verrrrry likely have medic(s), they can prot him and keep him alive during the game. If the player is lying, one (not both!) of the real masons can call him out. Given the fact that there are only 2 total mafia members today, it would cost the mafia essentially half their team to contest the mason claim. This is also a reason why claiming immediately would be more helpful than claiming at a later date. The downsides of this? Godfather now has a person he knows not to recruit, and the mason might die once mafia kp gets over 1.
If we do that, we have a confirmed townie who can essentially drive our vote; if he's wrong, cool beans, it happens. If he's right; awesome. Either way, it'll prevent exploitable intra-town conflicts.
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EPT
