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+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:18 BrownBear wrote:In this game, it looks like the middle is in more danger than the strong players, as most people (myself included) think they'll be recruited. And now everyone's placing me in the middle pool. Curses. Gotta work harder at being a better player. I'm not striving to be the best player, but I do want to work my skill level to a point where I can at least be considered very good. But now for some funtimes. Korynne: Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:02 Korynne wrote:
I personally put BrownBear down with A5J and Hesmyrr, he's not quite as active as I'd like him to be, whereas me and YInk post a lot more I think. Referring to BM's list, placing me as a player minimally likely to be recruited. Then, next page: Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:33 Korynne wrote:
So probably if I was GF I would go for middle of the road people, like BrownBear/Hesmyrr/AcrossFiveJulys. Enough skill to not like, out the entire mafia somehow, and under the radar enough to not be under heavy scrutiny like citi.zen or L. OBJECTION! That is a contradiction, missy. Explain yourself?
I don't know how serious you are here, but basically I just grouped you with A5J and Hesmyrr. I didn't agree with BM's judgment of how likely to be recruited, I was more just talking about the tiers of players, so it's consistent with what I said later.
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On July 01 2010 13:27 Korynne wrote:
Dude you people don't get it! Mafia choosing not to kill anyone is good!
Normal situation:
We lynch X during the day, mafia kills Y during the night.
This situation:
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia kills Y during the night. (we don't lynch X and X can't be mafia)
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia doesn't kill at night and we lynch X the next day. (Mafia doesn't get to kill Y)
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia can't kill at night. (we lynch X, X is mafia)
Use your brain peoples. -.- Simple logic here.
You're ignoring the fact that the GF will be recruiting twice as fast, relative to the amount of deaths going on.
Also, consider this scenario:
N1: We vote to roleblock L. Mafia kills BM. People trust L and vote to roleblock someone else. N2: GF recruits L.
It simply won't work.
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I would say the the certainty of there being a role-blocker is very nearly 100%, The only thing I worry about is that we have no way of knowing if he is recruited or not so we don't know when this plan becomes ineffective. I am all for starting with it since the chances are good, and even if there is a mistake we have to reevaluate people anyway. We just have to have a plan on when the risk stops being worth it since they could be recruited.
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[spoiler]On July 01 2010 13:28 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:25 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:16 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. I don't think this plan would work very well. Even if we did have a roleblocker on our side and we declared a target for him/her, we could not guarantee someone as town for more than a day. The godfather could always recruit the roleblocked person the next night. Also, can the mafia choose not to kill at night? If so then the mafia could choose not to kill when the roleblocked player is townie so that the town lynches the townie the next day and throws off our numbers for a bit. I don't understand why you say that the mafia have to sacrifice a night kill to kill the roleblocked guy, he is only safe for a day unless you plan on having him roleblocked for the whole game. That would hurt if he/she was a blue role and the chances that we have a roleblocker drop each day. This method uses our lynches to find the mafia, but unless we find the godfather we are just fighting a losing battle. Keeping the mafia numbers down is good though, so there is merit to this strategy. I suppose the longer the town can keep ahead of the mafia the more the godfather will have to say and the easier he/she will be found. Man, do I have to explain everything 5 times before people get it? xD It's not to declare that person as town, it's to not waste lynches on townies. At that point, they are not mafia, so at that point, killing them is lowering town power. We want to keep as many people around as possible. If mafia chooses not to kill that night, then they wasted a night kill! So instead of killing someone they choose, they have to not kill someone, so that the person we chose dies. That sounds like a pretty friggin awesome deal to me. We vote to roleblock one person every night, and we vote to lynch that person if no night kill went on at night. So at most 1 person dies per day/night cycle, which prolongs the game which should be good for townies. We're not really using lynches to find mafia as much as like, forcing mafia+town down to 1KP. And we never let a mafia go unlynched unless it's GF. This is a perfectly awesome idea unless we have no roleblocker or roleblocker is mafia'd. But see, that's the issue. We don't know for sure. We could be just hurting ourselves. It might work for like 1 or 2 nights, but the longer we use it the riskier it becomes. I don't like it, personally. Placing too much faith in one particular role being in the game is inviting disaster. I see your logic behind it, and it would be a great plan if we knew 100% there was a roleblocker, but we don't, so... [spoiler]
I'm okay with discrediting this idea based on the fact that there might not be a roleblocker. I'm not okay with the fact that people are throwing poor logic at me when the idea makes perfect sense. xD
What is more likely, roleblocker or jailkeeper? Because we can have roleblocker claim and be jailkeeped every night? This way we also know who is roleblocker and if something starts looking fishy we can abandon the idea and lynch the roleblocker.
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Oh noes, I screwed up the tags! *cries*
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On July 01 2010 13:25 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:16 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. I don't think this plan would work very well. Even if we did have a roleblocker on our side and we declared a target for him/her, we could not guarantee someone as town for more than a day. The godfather could always recruit the roleblocked person the next night. Also, can the mafia choose not to kill at night? If so then the mafia could choose not to kill when the roleblocked player is townie so that the town lynches the townie the next day and throws off our numbers for a bit. I don't understand why you say that the mafia have to sacrifice a night kill to kill the roleblocked guy, he is only safe for a day unless you plan on having him roleblocked for the whole game. That would hurt if he/she was a blue role and the chances that we have a roleblocker drop each day. This method uses our lynches to find the mafia, but unless we find the godfather we are just fighting a losing battle. Keeping the mafia numbers down is good though, so there is merit to this strategy. I suppose the longer the town can keep ahead of the mafia the more the godfather will have to say and the easier he/she will be found. Man, do I have to explain everything 5 times before people get it? xD It's not to declare that person as town, it's to not waste lynches on townies. At that point, they are not mafia, so at that point, killing them is lowering town power. We want to keep as many people around as possible. If mafia chooses not to kill that night, then they wasted a night kill! So instead of killing someone they choose, they have to not kill someone, so that the person we chose dies. That sounds like a pretty friggin awesome deal to me. We vote to roleblock one person every night, and we vote to lynch that person if no night kill went on at night. So at most 1 person dies per day/night cycle, which prolongs the game which should be good for townies. We're not really using lynches to find mafia as much as like, forcing mafia+town down to 1KP. And we never let a mafia go unlynched unless it's GF. This is a perfectly awesome idea unless we have no roleblocker or roleblocker is mafia'd.
Umm... all of this is fine except the GF recruits another mafia each night so the KP is essentially 2. I don't understand how you think that the mafia not killing someone is a good thing in this scenario -
we roleblock someone
GF recruits (please not a blue role)
no deaths show
we lynch a townie
overall we lose two townies with no chance of hitting a mafia. The only possible benefit is a lucky blue role like DT finding mafia
Yes prolonging the game is a good thing, but not at the expense of having more mafia recruited while killing 0 of them. How are we not wasting lynches on townies in this situation? We are only killing townies.
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On July 01 2010 13:30 YellowInk wrote:
Moving on to 'how do we win?'
As should be clear, the godfather needs to be the primary target. Also keep in mind that the mafia don't know who the godfather is. This means the mafia may take out the godfather for us. How do we accomplish this?
Activity levels in the early game are absolutely crucial. I don't care what you're saying, I just want you talking.
If you were a noob-level godfather, you might choose to say almost nothing. The mafia aren't going to hit you because you're not helping the town - they are glad to have inactives hanging out. With an anti-inactivity policy in effect, you're forcing the godfather to talk. So the level 1 godfather would be talking at some moderate amount, but the godfather doesn't want to help the town either, so there are traditional tells to watch for. Being aware of this, just like watching for usual scum, we want to keep a close eye on the middle-of-the-road players that are contributing minimally but being active in the thread. The level 2 godfather might be very active to escape any such scrutiny, though probably not spouting out a plan like I am here.
But we don't even force the godfather to play at this level unless we force everyone to talk. Now since we KNOW almost everyone is town aligned right now, we can rightfully expect almost every single player to be active in thread and putting forth their ideas. Therefore, any player that is playing sub-optimally right now needs to be lynched. If we don't get rid of the inactives now, we'll be plagued with them the rest of the game - and even a DT check won't save their face since they can get recruited.
If we force the godfather to be active, they may get hit by the mafia. If the godfather remains inactive or suspiciously unproductive, we'll lynch for it.
Speaking of DTs, yes, it is worth outing yourself immediately to finger the godfather.
Then, once the godfather is dead, we'll be at a somewhat informed state of the game and be able to immediately go after scum. Hopefully we'll take out a couple scum along the way anyhow - but this should not be a priority. After all, lynching a scum and having one recruited from our ranks is a net loss to us.
Lets get to it, shall we?
QFT. Excellent post YI.
We definitely want the godfather at risk as a target for mafia. Keep in mind he has 2 night lives though, so the mafia will almost certainly avoid hitting him the next day for fear that he's the godfather.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:34 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:27 Korynne wrote:
Dude you people don't get it! Mafia choosing not to kill anyone is good!
Normal situation:
We lynch X during the day, mafia kills Y during the night.
This situation:
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia kills Y during the night. (we don't lynch X and X can't be mafia)
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia doesn't kill at night and we lynch X the next day. (Mafia doesn't get to kill Y)
We don't lynch X during the day, mafia can't kill at night. (we lynch X, X is mafia)
Use your brain peoples. -.- Simple logic here. You're ignoring the fact that the GF will be recruiting twice as fast, relative to the amount of deaths going on. Also, consider this scenario: N1: We vote to roleblock L. Mafia kills BM. People trust L and vote to roleblock someone else. N2: GF recruits L. It simply won't work.
GF can only recruit up to 5 people. Less deaths means more townies relative to GF, hello?! Like I said, IF THE PERSON WHO IS ROLEBLOCKED IS MAFIA, THEN THEY WILL DIE THE NEXT DAY BY LYNCH. I'm like tired of explaining the same idea. xD
Normal scenario:
We lynch A, B, C, D, E. B and C are mafia, so now we have -2 mafia -3 town.
This scenario:
We lynch C, D. Now we have -2 mafia and -0 townies.
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On July 01 2010 13:35 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:25 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:16 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. I don't think this plan would work very well. Even if we did have a roleblocker on our side and we declared a target for him/her, we could not guarantee someone as town for more than a day. The godfather could always recruit the roleblocked person the next night. Also, can the mafia choose not to kill at night? If so then the mafia could choose not to kill when the roleblocked player is townie so that the town lynches the townie the next day and throws off our numbers for a bit. I don't understand why you say that the mafia have to sacrifice a night kill to kill the roleblocked guy, he is only safe for a day unless you plan on having him roleblocked for the whole game. That would hurt if he/she was a blue role and the chances that we have a roleblocker drop each day. This method uses our lynches to find the mafia, but unless we find the godfather we are just fighting a losing battle. Keeping the mafia numbers down is good though, so there is merit to this strategy. I suppose the longer the town can keep ahead of the mafia the more the godfather will have to say and the easier he/she will be found. Man, do I have to explain everything 5 times before people get it? xD It's not to declare that person as town, it's to not waste lynches on townies. At that point, they are not mafia, so at that point, killing them is lowering town power. We want to keep as many people around as possible. If mafia chooses not to kill that night, then they wasted a night kill! So instead of killing someone they choose, they have to not kill someone, so that the person we chose dies. That sounds like a pretty friggin awesome deal to me. We vote to roleblock one person every night, and we vote to lynch that person if no night kill went on at night. So at most 1 person dies per day/night cycle, which prolongs the game which should be good for townies. We're not really using lynches to find mafia as much as like, forcing mafia+town down to 1KP. And we never let a mafia go unlynched unless it's GF. This is a perfectly awesome idea unless we have no roleblocker or roleblocker is mafia'd. Umm... all of this is fine except the GF recruits another mafia each night so the KP is essentially 2. I don't understand how you think that the mafia not killing someone is a good thing in this scenario - we roleblock someone GF recruits (please not a blue role) no deaths show we lynch a townie overall we lose two townies with no chance of hitting a mafia. The only possible benefit is a lucky blue role like DT finding mafia Yes prolonging the game is a good thing, but not at the expense of having more mafia recruited while killing 0 of them. How are we not wasting lynches on townies in this situation? We are only killing townies.
But we are not "only" killing townies, the person is someone that normally would have been lynched instead so it is someone that is at least suspected mafia. It should have a success rate of finding mafia = to lynching with less townie deaths
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Nice post, Yellow. I agree with most of what you said. Here's my victory planz:
As we've seen the last couple of games, mafia work best when they are able to be very active, yet not actually help town that much. Read Ace's thread on how to play scum for what we should be looking for in a scum player.
Obviously, as everyone else has said, our top priority is the GF. However, we shouldn't forget that keeping scum numbers down isn't such a bad thing as well: If we're torn between lynching a confirmed scum player and a player who might be the Godfather, we should probably go for the sure thing rather than the chance. Maybe it is just me, but I prefer to play more conservatively - take sure things when we have them, but don't take huge risks and expect massive payoffs.
What YI said about the GF is very true - his activity level is going to depend a lot on the game. Thus, I'm going to add my voice to his - you should be talking in this game, and you should be talking a lot. We force everyone out of hiding, and then we have a much better chance at catching the GF in a lie somewhere along the line.
We should use the "vote for inactives" early game policy not as a method to kill people, but as a way to force inactives to talk. We should lynch anyone actively caught lying to town, as they are immediately made the most suspicious. Above all, we should continue to talk. And by "talk", I don't mean a bunch of oneliners or morse code. I mean contribute, dammit. As Ace has said, the best scum players don't contribute while appearing that they actually do. Given that the two best mafia players on the site aren't in this game (although one is hosting), it's possible that we might be able to catch people saying nothing, or catch them slipping up.
Summary: post, post content, vote for inactives to force them to be active, go for sure bets over big gambles, and post content.
PS: Korynne, still waiting on that explanation for why you contradicted yourself about me.
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@ proper use of roleblockers discussion
Right now, if I were a roleblocker, I would be targeting Korynne, L, BM, or someone I deemed a strong player. As I stated earlier, if I were godfather, I would have gone ahead and recruited a strong player on night 0. If you block one of us and find that the night hit was blocked, you may have just found yourself some scum. Until the godfather is dead, you can use that person as a block target every other night to reduce the hits. Once the godfather is dead you may want to claim and finger depending on the circumstances - though of course blocking someone and no night kill could mean a medic or another roleblocker or a vet, so this isn't 100% of course.
My declaring this strategy will probably also make it less likely he wants to recruit the top players almost as effectively as town declaring to lynch top players. Once the role blocker passes through the top players they will have cleared some number of us (at least for the time being). It's just a WIFOM game as to whether the godfather will try to target any more of us. But if he does, at least you'll be on to us and be able to point us out when the godfather goes down.
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Wait what's stopping scum from still performing NKs?
You're not understanding my scenario. The mafia keeps killing and GF recruits everyone that was previously roleblocked. Once the roleblocker finally reaches scum, there will already be quite a few mafia. Also, if the roleblocker is NK'd then yeah we'd be sitting on our asses letting someone that's dead do something.
Also, there must ALWAYS be a lynch. You can't no lynch.
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Oh, nevermind, you posted while I was writing. Derp.
And I wasn't that serious  Just trying to spark discussion/wondering.
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On July 01 2010 13:31 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:21 DCLXVI wrote:
question - we still have to vote in the other thread to not get modkilled unless we can vote on no lynch - is that possible?
Also, is there a list of these basic rules that never appear in the OP of games?
Yes, you have to vote in the other thread to avoid being modkilled. No, you cannot vote for no lynch.
What basic rules are you looking for? I think the OP covers everything o.O.
questions like this and the ones I've asked in other games. weird situational questions I suppose. Like, can the mafia choose not to kill (answered:yes)
I didn't see either of these in any OP for a game, maybe I'm going blind...
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:35 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:25 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:16 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote:
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. I don't think this plan would work very well. Even if we did have a roleblocker on our side and we declared a target for him/her, we could not guarantee someone as town for more than a day. The godfather could always recruit the roleblocked person the next night. Also, can the mafia choose not to kill at night? If so then the mafia could choose not to kill when the roleblocked player is townie so that the town lynches the townie the next day and throws off our numbers for a bit. I don't understand why you say that the mafia have to sacrifice a night kill to kill the roleblocked guy, he is only safe for a day unless you plan on having him roleblocked for the whole game. That would hurt if he/she was a blue role and the chances that we have a roleblocker drop each day. This method uses our lynches to find the mafia, but unless we find the godfather we are just fighting a losing battle. Keeping the mafia numbers down is good though, so there is merit to this strategy. I suppose the longer the town can keep ahead of the mafia the more the godfather will have to say and the easier he/she will be found. Man, do I have to explain everything 5 times before people get it? xD It's not to declare that person as town, it's to not waste lynches on townies. At that point, they are not mafia, so at that point, killing them is lowering town power. We want to keep as many people around as possible. If mafia chooses not to kill that night, then they wasted a night kill! So instead of killing someone they choose, they have to not kill someone, so that the person we chose dies. That sounds like a pretty friggin awesome deal to me. We vote to roleblock one person every night, and we vote to lynch that person if no night kill went on at night. So at most 1 person dies per day/night cycle, which prolongs the game which should be good for townies. We're not really using lynches to find mafia as much as like, forcing mafia+town down to 1KP. And we never let a mafia go unlynched unless it's GF. This is a perfectly awesome idea unless we have no roleblocker or roleblocker is mafia'd. Umm... all of this is fine except the GF recruits another mafia each night so the KP is essentially 2. I don't understand how you think that the mafia not killing someone is a good thing in this scenario - we roleblock someone GF recruits (please not a blue role) no deaths show we lynch a townie overall we lose two townies with no chance of hitting a mafia. The only possible benefit is a lucky blue role like DT finding mafia Yes prolonging the game is a good thing, but not at the expense of having more mafia recruited while killing 0 of them. How are we not wasting lynches on townies in this situation? We are only killing townies.
Can people please think for themselves instead of making me do all the thinking? -.- Think of a specific example if you don't get it. Now I'll do it for you. >_>
Normal scenario:
We lynch T, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night.
We lynch M, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night
This scenerio:
We RB T, mafia kills B at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie than normal (T)
We RB T, mafia doesn't kill B at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie than normal (B)
We RB M, mafia can't kill at night, GF recruits C at night -> we have one more townie and we killed the mafia (kept B, killed M)
Okay people? Use your brain!
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On July 01 2010 13:41 YellowInk wrote:
@ proper use of roleblockers discussion
Right now, if I were a roleblocker, I would be targeting Korynne, L, BM, or someone I deemed a strong player. As I stated earlier, if I were godfather, I would have gone ahead and recruited a strong player on night 0. If you block one of us and find that the night hit was blocked, you may have just found yourself some scum. Until the godfather is dead, you can use that person as a block target every other night to reduce the hits. Once the godfather is dead you may want to claim and finger depending on the circumstances - though of course blocking someone and no night kill could mean a medic or another roleblocker or a vet, so this isn't 100% of course.
My declaring this strategy will probably also make it less likely he wants to recruit the top players almost as effectively as town declaring to lynch top players. Once the role blocker passes through the top players they will have cleared some number of us (at least for the time being). It's just a WIFOM game as to whether the godfather will try to target any more of us. But if he does, at least you'll be on to us and be able to point us out when the godfather goes down.
We can't do that. One pass through clears them once, so the next night they are effectively still likely to be mafia. Instead of targetting me/L/BM, we target whoever we want to lynch instead.
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Better idea, Korynne: We roleblock someone, and nobody dies, we keep them ALIVE and roleblock them every night. Get the roleblocker to claim in the thread, have medics protect him, and mafia is rendered completely ineffective.
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On July 01 2010 13:41 youngminii wrote:
Wait what's stopping scum from still performing NKs?
You're not understanding my scenario. The mafia keeps killing and GF recruits everyone that was previously roleblocked. Once the roleblocker finally reaches scum, there will already be quite a few mafia. Also, if the roleblocker is NK'd then yeah we'd be sitting on our asses letting someone that's dead do something.
Also, there must ALWAYS be a lynch. You can't no lynch.
I don't get it. If scum keeps performing NKs that means that the guy we roleblocked is not mafia. So we shouldn't have killed him that night anyway.
Sure GF can recruit everyone that was previously roleblocked, but that's no better or worse than recruiting someone else.
The whole idea is that they're not confirmed townies.
The plan doesn't make us not lynch townies, it makes us ALWAYS LYNCH MAFIA.
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EPT
